A word about ‘oversigning’ (and revisiting Saban’s dance)
The numbers show Alabama coach Nick Saban has learned creative ways to say goodbye to some players. (AP photo)
It’s the home stretch of recruiting season, which generally isn’t my favorite time of the year, partly because I find the whole concept of obsessing over where an 18-year-old goes to school as, I dunno, a little creepy.
But here’s one of my biggest issues with recruiting: The practice of “oversigning.” It’s exactly what the term says. NCAA rules mandate a football program can’t give out more than 25 scholarships in one class and have more than 85 scholarship athletes on the roster at one time. Often, the math doesn’t work.
A team may have only 18 spots open but it gives out 25 scholarships. This is “oversigning.” It’s a gray area in the rulebook. Coaches get away with it by rationalizing than some players don’t qualify. So the players are stashed at prep schools or junior colleges, while others are convinced to take medical scholarships. Others are pressured into transferring.
The fact is, some kids are run off because they didn’t turn out to be as good as coaches hoped. So much for the concept of amateur athletics.
Nick Saban is the current poster boy for this practice. The Wall Street Journal did a terrific story back in September, quoting three former Alabama players who said they were pressured into leaving the program, presumably to open spots on the roster.
The website oversigning.com is tracking school’s commitments and available slots. Currently, Mississippi and coach Houston Nutt are at plus-11, followed by Saban/Alabama at plus-10, Les Miles/LSU at plus-9 and Bobby Petrino/Arkansas at plus-8.
Suffice to say, this is a horrible practice. I’m going to expand on this topic more in a column in my next post. I spoke to former Baylor head coach Grant Teaff of the American Football Coaches Association (AFCA).
But until then, this will either amuse you or make you sick. Here’s a transcript of a conversation from 2008 between Saban and former Birmingham News staff writer Ian Rapoport (who now covers the New England Patriots for the Boston Herald). Ian’s a good guy, a solid reporter and a bit of a smart aleck, which is probably why I like him. This give-and-take between he and Saban will tell you all you need to know about how coaches try to finesse things to make the numbers work.
April 15, 2008.
By Ian Rapoport
Some questions, you can’t wait to ask. If a pitcher coming off arm surgery throws a no-hitter in his first start back, it would be fun to ask him, So how does that feel? On the other hand, there are some questions that you simply have to ask. Ya know, because it’s your job. A lot of times, it’s clear that while the answer will be valuable, the process getting there won’t be pretty. Your subject might not want to talk about it. Yeah, you might get yelled at. (Not that you mind…)
Today, after Alabama’s last spring practice, I had one of those situations. One of the big questions, I think, for the offseason is how will coach Nick Saban whittle the roster down to just 85 scholarships? There are 66 on scholarship now, and assume 25 freshman will enroll. That’s 91. So six have to go by August. How? That’s what I asked Saban today. He was entertaining as always. Let’s just say, the conversation was classic:
Me: “The numbers [are the] issue. First, do you know, is Colin Peek on scholarship?”
Saban: (Time to play dumb.) “I don’t know. You ask me, do I know…” (Bad question. Clearly, he knows.)
Me: “I think you do know.” (See?)
Saban: “You’ll have to ask somebody else.” (Cue mischievous grin) “You’re asking the wrong guy.”
Me: (Alright, come on, it’s getting late.) “He is, right?”
Saban: “Yeah.” (Round one: Me!)
Me: (The real questions) “How are you going to handle the numbers and when do you start to worry about it?”
Saban: (Getting a little loud… What, Saban worry?) “I’m not worried about them. It’ll all work out. I mean, the whole thing has a solution to every issue. You don’t put yourself in a position where you don’t know what’s coming, then have to take it in the chops.” (”Chops” is such a dad word. Not that there is anything wrong with that) “Alright? We know how it has to be managed, and it will be managed.”
(Pause)
Saban: “And you don’t need to call me and ask me to write a column for you, and I won’t call you and ask you how to manage our numbers. How’s that?”
Me: (Deal! But when did I suggest how to manage the numbers? If he did ask… I digress.) “I don’t even have a calculator.” (Can’t do math without one of those.)
Saban: (The smile returns.) “You don’t need one to do this.”
Me: (Throwing the hands up in the air.) “So you’re not going to tell us?”
Saban: “I’m not going to tell you what?” (That exit is looking mighty welcoming now.) “It’s none of your business. Alright? And don’t give me this stuff about the fans need to know, because they don’t need to know.”Me: “I would never say that.”
Saban: “Don’t even ask. Alright? So. (Starts to walk out, but he’s got one more zinger before he leaves.) Ya know, I thought we could get this one last thing without having to…” (attempt a scolding?)
Me: (Even I start to laugh at that) “You really thought that? No chance.”
Saban: (Off the podium, he can’t help giggling to himself, too) “Not with you.”
Media relations guru Jeff Purinton: (Escorting Saban out the door) “He (me) needed something to hold him over until the season…”
True. Good times…
I’ll be back later with a column on this topic. Until then, what are your thoughts on the practice of oversigning?
By Jeff Schultz
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296 comments Add your comment
Tell the truth
January 20th, 2011
11:46 am
5150 P.O.A.D So you don’t think that Tech left the SEC because it got greedy? Because it went to a bowl game every year(there were not many at that time you will recall) and decided it would like all that revenue for itself as an independent??? Really?
GoJackets!
January 20th, 2011
11:47 am
Delta oversigns every flight
gcs
January 20th, 2011
11:48 am
Jeff Schultz— 4 kids run off from Georgia Tech:
Wide receiver Quentin Sims, safety Cooper Taylor, A-back Chris Jackson and quarterback Jordan Luallen.
Ironically, Alabama was criticized for running Chris Jackson off last year. But nobody says a thing when GT does it.
.
Geaux Tigers!!
January 20th, 2011
11:48 am
The scholarship is a renewable 1 year deal. If I player does not work out or does not show a desire to work hard and get better then I see no reason why a school should continue to give that kid a free ride.
All scholarships are like this. If your performance suffers, you lose your scholarship. So why is it ok in academics but not football? Everyone wants these kids to be student-athletes yet you don’t want to make them responsible for their actions/performance. Bull!!!
As for greyshirts, that’s a trickier situation. As long as a coach is honest with the kid from the beginning and said kid is ok with that, then I don’t see a problem with it. In the case of Elliot Porter at LSU, he had professed his love for everything LSU but also knew he was going to redshirt. Les Miles went to him (albeit, waaayyyy too late in the process) and asked him to take the greyshirt and join the team in Jan. on scholarship. He declined and Les granted him unconditional transfer. Porter, however, is now back at LSU where he will walk on and wont be eligible for a scholarship for 2 years. Porter has said himself that he should have taken the greyshirt.
My point being, that I think we are overreacting a bit when it comes to this. this is life. If you’re not getting better you’re being left behind. We’ve made college football what it is today by wanting our teams to win over anything. The players use these schools too though. Should be ban early entries or one and dones?
robodawg
January 20th, 2011
11:48 am
Just cuz it’s legal don’t make it right.
Georgia has plenty of guys who never make it off the practice squad but stay four years and graduate. One thing at least that Richt does the right way. Yes, it’s a competitive disadvantage, but I wouldn’t have it any other way.
Trupert
January 20th, 2011
11:48 am
Oversigning is wrong and it’s a unfair advantage to people who put winning a football game above all that is fair, honerable and honest and as long as people of low character ( SEE Saban, Miles, Nut etc) are given the wiggle room it will continue.
The $EC should make it against the rules but they won’t because money matters more than honesty and integrity to the $EC.
SouthGaBrave
January 20th, 2011
11:50 am
AAron,
You are correct. I have no problem with a guy like Tanner who, after completing 4 years and having a degree in hand, decides not to cash in on that 5th year of eligibility. Tanner has had shoulder issues in the past, but is completely healthy now. But he knows his future isn’t in the NFL, so why risk another year of mostly sitting the bench (and potential injury) when you already have your degree.
It is kids diappearing after their 2nd or 3rd year that most people have a problem with.
Dontavius Supremo
January 20th, 2011
11:50 am
We have allowed money and the love of money to dominate college athletics. It’s shameful.
Lowcountry Bulldawgs
January 20th, 2011
11:54 am
Watch this if you want to know more about oversigning. The 5th year Miami DE loosing his scholarship is a interesting twist into this.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/index
Lowcountry Bulldawgs
January 20th, 2011
11:56 am
Watch the video entitled “Over the Limit”.
Terry Shirey, Sr.
January 20th, 2011
11:56 am
What I find creepy is you calling obsession with where an 18-year old is going to school creepy while you and your newspaper play a major role in creaing the obcession. You even have a writer devoted to nothing but recruiting. What if high school 5-star recruit “Joe Banana” gave a press conference to announce his school choice and no one showed up or reported it? Its the same as with sports writers complaining about pre-season and early season ratings playing too big an influence on BCS ratings when the sports writers are the one doing the ratings and the media is the one publishing them.
Tell the truth
January 20th, 2011
11:57 am
Please don’t tell me that the high and mighty-completely ethical-pin cushion for the country outside of the south- would dare to do something like this. Say it ain’t so Joe!!!
dawgster
January 20th, 2011
11:58 am
@SouthGaBrave… good points…and also if Tanner had wanted to continue Coach Richt and staff would have been delighted…I’m amazed at some of the posts on here saying how dumb Coach Richt is for not doing this…I understand its about “Winning”…but i think you can achieve that and still have honor…I’m not going to single out Saban, but there evidently is something to be said for his practices accordint the referenced articles…Again i’m proud to know that if my son played for a Coach Richt, i would know he would be treated fairly as long as he was at school and did things he was suppose to as a student’athlete…go dawgs
Paul H
January 20th, 2011
11:59 am
Jeff, we need to add savvy reporters to the GI Joe action figure list. They could be the bad guys and the coaches can be the good guys. Or would it be the other way around?
AAron
January 20th, 2011
12:02 pm
SouthGaBrave,
Who is disappearing after their 2nd or 3rd year?
Those who transfer to another school have every chance to get a degree at their new school. Those on medical scholarship, get to stay at their school and continue their full ride until they graduate. In that WSJ article, Alabama generously paid for that guy’s grad school (yet he still whines).
You are trying to make it sounds like they drive to the county line and drop them off at the side of the road.
Tell the truth
January 20th, 2011
12:05 pm
AAron Maybe they pack’em a lunch too.
Loyal Dawg
January 20th, 2011
12:10 pm
Kudos to Schultzie. I know the Bama fans don’t like this topic, but it is up for legitimate discussion. It opens up players to potential abuse by unethical coaches and essentially circumvents the intent of the annual 25 scholarship limit. A coach can stockpile kids that may would sign somewhere else, potentially preventing them accepting a scholarship from a school that had room on signing day. If the kids’ second choice holds a spot for him, he’s okay, but if the school signs someone else because they want to fill that scholarship right away, he’s out of luck.
Rumbo
January 20th, 2011
12:10 pm
Everybody knows which schools use the practice the most, which by the way is legal. The SEC lets you sign 28 every year. Gray-shirting is also a legal way to manage the numbers. The kids considering those schools are aware of it because opposing recruiters use it against those schools, moralists like Schultz write about it with regularity, and the subject is all over the internet. It’s all a known, it’s all legal and the recruits who sign with those schools are by now aware of the risks. It’s called capitalism in the corporate world and it makes moralists queasy to see it applied to college athletics. Such is life. So a kid winds up having to transfer? Boo Hoo. He still gets a scholarship.
DC
January 20th, 2011
12:13 pm
I’m glad you’ve made this article..we have been talking about this for while on Barnhart’s blog…its absolutely crazy what they can get away with. Jeff, check out the Outside the lines report on LSU and a quarterback who was kicked off the team. Good stuff…
SouthGaBrave
January 20th, 2011
12:13 pm
AAron,
I’m not trying to chase Saban/Bama down with torches and pitchforks. I realize things happen at a lot of schools. I was speaking in general terms, hence the reason I didn’t list names. Also, yes those students still can earn degrees and playing time at institutions they transfer too. However, their illusions of granduer upon signing at their first school go unfulfilled. To be sold on the recent history of winning at a program, and then transfer after 2-3 years (spun by the school as a “mutual decision”, but are usually far from it) is not the career these kids hoped for.
Since it’s obvious you don’t want Bama singled out, we’ll take LSU in an example. Say a kid grew up in Georgia as a fan of UGA or Tech, but were sucked in by LSU’s recent success, next year’s top 5 preseason ranking, and a smooth talking recruiter. So, them and their parents hide the homestate gear deep in the closet and they make the trek out West with promises in their head of championships and NFL draft status. After 2-3 years, they “mutually decide” to transfer to Directional State University to play out their final bit of eligibility and earn a degree. They come home to live/work and pull that old gear of the home team out of the back of the closet, but no one will ever forget that they left for bigger and better things. Kind of a hollow story….
Sports Blog Atlanta
January 20th, 2011
12:15 pm
There is a reason the NCAA follows every move Nick Saban makes. He decided to skirt the number of visits a coach could make by making video conference calls. While not a direct violation of the rule, it certainly violated the spirit of the rule regarding how many recruits you can visit.
I don’t fault Saban for trying to find a way to come up with a competitive advantage in what he does. Do you think the Alabama faithful care about Saban’s tactics as long as they win? Heck no! The fault lies with the NCAA for not doing something about it. The NCAA puts on a show about how they are for the “students” and maintaining their amateur status, but the reality is They keep quiet here because They benefit when certain schools like Alabama do well.
DC
January 20th, 2011
12:20 pm
I don’t blame the recruiter entirely..but they need to be held accountable..they are ruining kids lives and that needs to be put out there..NCAA needs to crack down hard on Saban…oh and *cough war eagle *cough
Loyal Dawg
January 20th, 2011
12:22 pm
I’m calling out all the coaches that abuse this loop hole, not just Saban.
Another Dawg
January 20th, 2011
12:22 pm
The NCAA needs to close an obvious loophole. Scholarships should require 4+ year commitments to a player. Medical hardships should be allowed, but they should still cost the team a scholarship for 1 year for a Sophomore or Junior, and 2 years for a Freshman. A team should only be able to oversign 1 player a year (to account for players not qualifying.) Reward the walk-ons with scholarships; they’re the swimmies that keep teams academically afloat, anyways.
PMC
January 20th, 2011
12:22 pm
You know though, the only people really crying about oversigning are the ones whose football programs aren’t winning titles.
There is no honor in this sport people. Amaturism does not exist in big money sports.
magnus dawgus
January 20th, 2011
12:23 pm
People keep bring up Meyer and Florida as engaging in oversigning. Check the numbers, they have not engaged in this practice.
The SEC West schools (surprise, surprise) are the biggest transgressors.
Tell the truth
January 20th, 2011
12:23 pm
Looks like they need to crack down on the SEC itself- top 5 teams listed all SEC teams.
JB
January 20th, 2011
12:34 pm
Sign of the times. Dawgs could only muster 18 recruits last year, two already gone…will struggle this year, we need 1,000 and will get 22-23……Bama on the other hand looks like an Army induction center on signing day…LOL…. They’ll sign what, 40?
Dr. Phil
January 20th, 2011
12:35 pm
I thought that once a player signed, the school had to honor the scholarship, unless the player beat up his girlfriend twice or habitually rode his motor scooter up one way streets and refused to get a license, or was incarcerated for 60 days during the semester like Randy Moss at FSU.
Ted Striker
January 20th, 2011
12:36 pm
Massive — emphasis on “massive” — oversigning is a shameful practice. That said, it’s not anything new. Interesting read on the link below about the old scholarship limit of 140 (with an annual signing limit of 45) and how it impacted Bobby Dodd’s/Tech’s decision to leave the SEC.
http://bit.ly/esULV2
McDawg
January 20th, 2011
12:37 pm
perhaps if we did more of it we would not of had all of the depth problems on the O-Line…..just saying
Shawn
January 20th, 2011
12:37 pm
Saban’s big problem at the Dolphins was evaluating talent. That’s why he came back to college. He is awful at evaluation so he just goes and gets as many as he can and weeds them out. In the NFL you have to draft on evaluations and there were reports that he would lose sleep over these decisions. “What do you mean I only get 7 picks? This is crazy. I gotta go back to college where I can get all I want.” Trust me, He is not worried about his character coming into question. The guy is a great coach but a terrible human! I respect CMR for continuing to give the promise of an education to guys like Q. Banks, T. Strickland……and yes, Harrow will get his 4 years if he chooses to continue making the grades!
Jeff Schultz
January 20th, 2011
12:38 pm
GCS — Not sure about that. Taylor and Sims left the program during the season, didn’t they? Can’t recall other 2. In any event, don’t remember Paul Johnson ever being accused of oversigning. There are legit reasons some kids transfer (or get kicked out). I’m not indicting every coach.
Joey
January 20th, 2011
12:41 pm
“I understand its about “Winning”…but i think you can achieve that and still have honor…”
******************************************
I want UGA Football to be honorable too, as long as we are competitive. 6-7, 3-5 ain’t very competitive, dawgster.
JSS
January 20th, 2011
12:43 pm
Ah Jeff Schultz….
You’ve let those “Stalkers of 18 year old boys” suck you in! It’s a sad day!
By the way, make these “student-athletes” “grant-in-aid” like everyone else… There is this word bandied about in these parts: “entitlement.” But it always seems to be thrown at everyone else…
A Big Dog
January 20th, 2011
12:47 pm
I wish our Coach was like Saban.
Alabama Jack
January 20th, 2011
12:52 pm
The Prince of Alabama cares only about winning football games and himself! A kid would have to be stupid to play for him but we are talking about the Alabama football program and the poor boys never graduate!
Bodda Getta
January 20th, 2011
12:53 pm
Two card players pay five-card poker.
Player one says, “Deal me five cards”.
Player two says, “Deal me seven cards”.
Best five cards win.
Better than 80% of the time, player two walks away with the winnings.
100% of the time, player one claims moral self-righteousness.
Nearly everyone else agrees player one is a dumbass.
David
January 20th, 2011
12:53 pm
Some kids don’t work out – literally. Some kids don’t study the playbook. If a kid isn’t “making the grade” on the field, then yes, his ATHLETIC scholarship is in jeopardy. Same as a kid who finds his ACADEMIC scholarship in jeopardy because he isn’t making the grades.
Since when is a kid guaranteed a 4 year free ride based on what he did in high school and IRREGARDLESS of what he accomplishes in college? Some programs are intensely competitive, because so many kids want to play there — just like any other hierarchy of organizations out there.
This is a ridiculous debate. As long as programs work to help kids land on their feet, then this is a total non-issue.
The practice of moving kids along will always continue. It’s just a question of whether or not programs do it before or after signing day. Doing it after signing day maximizes a kid’s chance to stay with a program (contingent to signing results, versus being forced to clear room for someone you might sign). So not only is the argument ridiculous, but it actually hurts the very kids it intends to help. Can no one in this society think more than once step down the road anymore?
Grammar Man
January 20th, 2011
1:00 pm
Kudos to Schultz for writing this column. I fear that many in the local sports media are afraid to speak up for fear of losing access to the offending programs. I even forgive you for the “begs the question” infraction. As I mentioned in my comment on the SEC t-shirt column, this is a horrendous unethical practice and I’m afraid that Georgia, Vandy, and Florida won’t have the power to force a change on the SEC. It will have to come from outside.
Bulldog Joe
January 20th, 2011
1:03 pm
JSS,
“Entitlement” is what Georgia players feel as soon as Coach Richt signs them to five year contracts.
01HAWK
January 20th, 2011
1:04 pm
Football Scholarships are just like academic scholarships. If you do not make the grades then you are off scholarship. Maybe that is why Georgia just does not get it.
It is sad to see all of the SABAN bashing. If he left BAMA for Georgia then 90 % or more would favor the move. But we know that will never happen………………….I mean, UGA is not an elite program, and why would SABAN take a step down. This would not even be a lateral move.
01HAWK
January 20th, 2011
1:06 pm
SEC EAST ………………………………………SUCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!
JSS
January 20th, 2011
1:14 pm
Remember A.J. Bryant from Hawkinsville HS? He had absolutely no business going to UGA. Not because he was like a “Pulpwood Smith;” but because it was a result of it not being a good match… There’s a player who could have gone to a lesser D-1, 1-AA, D-II program and gotten a degree and prepared himself for a career at the next level. I have a creepy feeling that Nik Marshall may be walking down the same road.
The old Dodd quote was and is true… “It’s not the recruits fault for not making the squad (team), it was the coaches fault for misjudging their talents.”
Gatorman
January 20th, 2011
1:15 pm
Yeah, I like my Gators, but I didn’t cry uncontrollably when they had a mediocre season, nor will I next year if they don’t either. All of us should have a priority greater than football games, and if you don’t you might look inward to find out why not.
David
January 20th, 2011
1:15 pm
I had an academic scholarship in college. I had to make certain grades, or I lost the scholarship.
Let’s change the deal. I get a free ride — tuition, meals, lodging, everything — but I have to work 30 hours a week. (Sort of like a graduate assistantship, minus the tuition, meals and lodging.) I also get to work under some of the best-paid people in my profession in the country. The top 4 or 5 students in the program get paid at least $500,000 annually after graduation. Some of them don’t even have to stay 4 years, and a few even get 7 figure signing bonuses the moment they leave campus. However, I also have to be one of the best students in the region in order to remain in the program. It’s intensely competitive. People are constantly working to take my spot, as you can imagine.
Sounds sort of like life.
As long as the program works to help kids land on their feet, then this is completely a non-issue. It’s more than any company ever does for an employee, and it’s more than any university does for a kid who doesn’t meet the obligations of an academic scholarship.
I don’t know why sports writers get so bent out of shape over this. The kids are not being kicked out of school. They are losing a total free ride – a limited quantity item in high demand.
Rather than complaining about over-signing, why not hold up the NCAA to scrutiny? Why does the 85 limit exist? To make sure programs like USC can’t stockpile kids who might otherwise end up at Washington. It also levels the playing field — forcing a school with enough fan support to maintain 120 grant-in-aids (Alabama or Texas) to play by the economic realities of a TCU or Ole Miss.
Thinking. Priceless.
ommyTa
January 20th, 2011
1:15 pm
You really can’t compare academic scholarships to athletic ones. No one loses their academic scholarship because a new crop of better students comes in and takes them away. There are objective (somewhat) standards called grades, and the level of expected performance is documented in the scholarship (i.e., maintain a certain GPA). In college football, a kid could lose his scholarship purely at the coach’s discretion. I’m not advocating blanket protection for athletes, but let’s compare apples to apples.
dawgfan
January 20th, 2011
1:16 pm
How many times is Schultz going to claim that he doesn’t care about recruiting in a column that he wrote about…wait for it…RECRUITING?
Crusader
January 20th, 2011
1:16 pm
Jeff, please continue to report on this practice. It may not be against the rules but it is unethical. The coaches exhort the players to sacrifice for the team and then get pushed out for the same team. Is this the message we should be sending to these young men anything in the name of expediency it is simply going back to the corrupt practices prior to the most recent rule changes addressing recruiting abuses.
Crusader
January 20th, 2011
1:16 pm
Jeff, please continue to report on this practice. It may not be against the rules but it is unethical. The coaches exhort the players to sacrifice for the team and then get pushed out for the same team. Is this the message we should be sending to these young men anything in the name of expediency it is simply going back to the corrupt practices prior to the most recent rule changes addressing recruiting abuses.