Misled into a mistake, a decade later
Note: This incorporates material from a post published earlier on this blog. It is posted here as the electronic version of a column published in today’s dead-tree edition of the AJC.
—————–
Ten years ago today, the United States launched an unprovoked invasion of another country, an attack that was justified by claims of dire threats that our leaders knew to be false and exaggerated. More than 4,000 of our sons and daughters were to die as a result of that decision; tens of thousands more live today with physical and psychic wounds that have changed their lives forever.
The last of our soldiers to die in that war was named David Hickman. He was a recently married 23-year-old Army specialist from Greensboro, N.C. He was killed Nov. 14, 2011, by an improvised explosive device, a term that by the end had became all too familiar. The death toll continues even now within Iraq, with an average of a dozen people a day dying from political-related violence. More than 60 civilians were killed in a terrorist bombing Tuesday, a story that made headlines here only because it was timed to coincide with the war’s anniversary.
In other words, what was once deemed worth the investment of thousands of lives is now not deemed worthy even of notice.
Today, a majority of Americans have come to understand that the war was a mistake. However, that was not the case 10 years ago. In the wake of the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, our country was experiencing a degree of fear that it had not felt for decades. Under those conditions, it was all too easy for those in power to direct that fear wherever they wished, and to isolate and marginalize those Americans who dared to question the narrative as they spun it.
One of the architects of that effort, former Vice President Dick Cheney, looks back on that era in a new documentary film that was televised last week on Showtime. Cheney played a decisive role in maneuvering a pliable, inexperienced and maybe somewhat frightened president into an unnecessary war. But in typical Cheney fashion, the vice president expresses not the slightest regret or doubt.
“I did what I did,” he told the filmmakers. “And it’s all part of the public record and I feel very good about it. If I had it to do over again, I’d do it in a minute.”
While we did succeed in removing the tyrannical Saddam from power, that part of the mission was never in real doubt. In other ways, however, the invasion has set American interests back significantly. Instead of serving as a military outpost for U.S. forces keeping Iran in check, Iraq today is all but an Iranian client state. Despite our investment of blood and treasure, we have little or no influence over Iraq’s policies or practices.
By fighting on two fronts at once, both in Iraq and Afghanistan, we also divided our manpower, financial resources and attention, ensuring that we achieved real victory in neither. We will never know whether a full commitment to Afghanistan in the early years would have paid off with success; we do know that the odds of ultimate success look very dim.
Cheney, President Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz and others also lost the war here on the home front. The invasion launched 10 years ago today in a show of shock and awe was intended to mark a newly muscular and militaristic foreign policy, with the United States finally freed of the constraints once placed upon it by the Soviet Union.
That was the theory. In practice, the invasion of Iraq, driven by false promises of easy conquest and false threats of WMD, yellowcake, mushroom clouds and unmanned aerial vehicles, exposed the strategic overreach and arrogance implicit in such a policy. By his second term, a chastened President Bush had largely pushed Cheney aside. That recognition of his vice president’s malignant influence came too late to save his presidency.
Today, the ambitions of Cheney and his friends have been discredited. The lessons of Vietnam have been refreshed rather than overturned, and support is now growing even within the Republican Party for a less expensive military and a more circumspect use of force overseas. The remaining advocates of a Cheney-esque foreign policy — men such as John McCain and William Kristol — are left to stamp their feet in frustration.
If given the chance, they, like Cheney, would indeed be willing to do it all over again. But next time, the American people may be wise enough not to give them or others like them the opportunity.
– Jay Bookman
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517 comments Add your comment
Regnad Kcin
March 20th, 2013
10:34 am
“no. I know this because there are stats to back it up. Silly lib.”
Can you show us the “because” he was inexperieinced” death count, as well as the “because he was not engaged” death count?
You are a very silly person, and you double-down on the silliness.
td
March 20th, 2013
10:36 am
Jay
March 20th, 2013
9:33 am
“The inspectors were perilously close to proving that no WMD existed, which is why Bush ordered them out of the country so the war could proceed. That is documented history.”
I seemed to have never read this version of history. Must be that secret bed wetting history boo,
“The war was never about WMD; WMD was the excuse used to justify an invasion of an oil-rich country at the heart of the Islamic world that had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11. That invasion was intended to send a message to Muslims everywhere, and as a means of establishing permanent US bases in Iraq to be used to dominate that region militarily and intimidate neighboring Iran into doing what we said.”
If I take your word for these reasons then they still are good reasons to go to war. It is called in the strategic and economic interest of the nation.
The left has never seemed to realize that the economy of this nation (you know the means to which people become wealthy so that the government can confiscate their money to pay for these redistribution schemes that the left loves) is run on OIL. It is in the strategic and economic interest that the right people in the middle east control the oil and that the oil is shipped to this country with the least amount of expense.
deegee
March 20th, 2013
10:36 am
It kinda makes you want to order some Freedom Fries and open a bottle of French wine. Jacques Chirac knew the score and we derided the French. I hope everyone now understands the psyche of ego maniacal leaders that will send men and women off to die because somebody dissed their daddy.
Welcome to the Occupation
March 20th, 2013
10:37 am
Jay: “JFK was a Cold War advocate who had shown little willingness to challenge accepted wisdom on that topic. I think that he too would have had a very hard time walking back and letting South Vietnam “go Commie” on his watch.”
You better believe it.
St Simons
March 20th, 2013
10:38 am
These people should hang high for treason, or war crimes.
It is one of the darkest moments in US history.
I hope this debacle is the epitaph to the Republican party.
I hate them, I really do, and their fellow travelers.
And I will never not hate them.
Marty Huggins'
March 20th, 2013
10:38 am
Jay
March 20th, 2013
8:31 am
“sfd, I had never been a fan of Cohen, but I too remember that one very well.
Overall, the refusal of major media outlets to look at things with even a modicum of skepticism was startling to me.”
————————–
Would you say your main media outlet, The AJC, has done an adequate job of being skeptical in regards to the Obama administrations continuation and expansion of the Drone program started by Bush abroad?
Easy to throw stones at others
williebkind
March 20th, 2013
10:38 am
“As long as they remain Bush bootlickers, the chances of them returning to any semblance of power in Washington DC is very, very small.”
yeah and we feel that way about the Kennedy’s.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
March 20th, 2013
10:38 am
It is in the strategic and economic interest that the right people in the middle east control the oil and that the oil is shipped to this country with the least amount of expense.
Our self interest in the natural resources of another country justifies killing?
Wow!
stands for decibels
March 20th, 2013
10:39 am
It is in the strategic and economic interest that the right people in the middle east control the oil and that the oil is shipped to this country with the least amount of expense.
ahem.
http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=5570
Regnad Kcin
March 20th, 2013
10:40 am
“Deposing of an evil despot and killing as many terrorists as possible certainly does.”
You know, I think that ^^^ is an even stranger definition of “stable” than you tried out on us before. Just for grins, how would you define “chaotic?”
Granny Godzilla
March 20th, 2013
10:40 am
Scratch it
6 trillion, good number for bad war.
Got one YOU like better?
williebkind
March 20th, 2013
10:40 am
” hate them, I really do, and their fellow travelers.
And I will never not hate them.”
It is sad people like this can vote.
Marty Huggins'
March 20th, 2013
10:41 am
St Simons
March 20th, 2013
10:38 am
Everyone!
What about those who voted in favor of the war?
Not all were republicans.
JamVet
March 20th, 2013
10:41 am
It was stable when President Bush left office.
|tchy cc, just how many idiotic, perverted lies can you string back to back to back?
And though a rhetorical question, they are nonetheless sickening.
Jay
March 20th, 2013
10:41 am
Marty, I supported the use of drones under Bush, as long as proper care was taken in targeting, and I have done the same under Obama. I have never had an issue with treating AQ and its affiliates as threats to be eliminated, which is why I also backed the decision to invade Afghanistan.
williebkind
March 20th, 2013
10:42 am
“Our self interest in the natural resources of another country justifies killing?”
Another liberal with a reading comprehension disorder.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
March 20th, 2013
10:42 am
Jacques Chirac knew the score and we derided the French.
All too true.
In the winter of 2003, when George Bush and Tony Blair were frantically gathering support for their planned invasion, Professor Thomas Römer, an Old Testament expert at the university of Lausanne, was rung up by the Protestant Federation of France. They asked him to supply them with a summary of the legends surrounding Gog and Magog and as the conversation progressed, he realised that this had originally come, from the highest reaches of the French government.
President Jacques Chirac wanted to know what the hell President Bush had been on about in their last conversation. Bush had then said that when he looked at the Middle East, he saw “Gog and Magog at work” and the biblical prophecies unfolding. But who the hell were Gog and Magog? Neither Chirac nor his office had any idea. But they knew Bush was an evangelical Christian, so they asked the French Federation of Protestants, who in turn asked Professor Römer.
He explained that Gog and Magog were, to use theological jargon, crazy talk.
To reiterate: crazy talk.
fedup
March 20th, 2013
10:42 am
“Criminalizing politics is a very dangerous step. The truth is that by the time the war began, a strong if not overwhelming majority of Americans supported it. This is a stain on our nation, not just on those individuals who led it at the time.”
Jay I disagree. If somebody yells fire in a theater a lot people will believe that and repeat it too. The only person who is guilty is the one who yelled fire. The others are innocent.
Welcome to the Occupation
March 20th, 2013
10:42 am
td: “The left has never seemed to realize that the economy of this nation (you know the means to which people become wealthy so that the government can confiscate their money to pay for these redistribution schemes that the left loves) is run on OIL. It is in the strategic and economic interest that the right people in the middle east control the oil and that the oil is shipped to this country with the least amount of expense.”
Ah YES, and there we have it ladies and gentlemen!! The mask comes off and one of them finally drops all pretense and admits that regardless of the cost in mayhem and human slaughter and money, it’s ultimately all WORTH IT. Because it’s about imperial hegemony, in its purest naked form.
And THAT’s why you’ll see no real curtailing of the military budget in all of the budget wrangling to come, because the Washington establishment agrees with our friend td here (though the ones with
“D” by their names don’t dare admit it openly).
Hey td, have you submitted your resume for an AEI internship? I bet they’re always looking for new blood for their consensus-generation operations. Bill Kristol can always use ambitious defenders of the cause.
USinUK ... no longer a rainy Friday, but still mildly cranky
March 20th, 2013
10:43 am
dammit, Jay’s 10:34 beat me to it.
yes, there WERE WMD’s in Iraq more than 20 years before we invaded … guess what! NONE HAVE BEEN FOUND since 2003.
NONE
NADA
NIENTE
thus refuting W’s primary reason for invading.
Normal, plain and simple
March 20th, 2013
10:43 am
Jay
March 20th, 2013
10:31 am
Jay,
you may be right, but you will never convince me that he would have fought the war the way LBJ and Nixon did. I believe that he, at least would have let us fight the way we were supposed to and would have given us every chance to win.
Doggone/GA
March 20th, 2013
10:44 am
“What about those who voted in favor of the war?”
Actually…there was no vote “in favor of war”…there was a vote authorizing the President to DECIDE if there should be a war. Not at all the same thing.
USinUK ... no longer a rainy Friday, but still mildly cranky
March 20th, 2013
10:44 am
oh, and Scratch – you attributed the deaths in Afghanistan to Obama’s lack of engagement –
prove it.
JamVet
March 20th, 2013
10:44 am
St Simons
March 20th, 2013
10:38 am
These people should hang high for treason, or war crimes.
It is one of the darkest moments in US history.
I hope this debacle is the epitaph to the Republican party.
I hate them, I really do, and their fellow travelers.
And I will never not hate them.
My dear friend, as you may know, I have read a lot of Gandhi and King and other proponents of non-violence and peaceful change.
And I have tried desperately to not hate these murderous men and their followers.
But in my darker moments, I fail…
Jay
March 20th, 2013
10:44 am
“I seemed to have never read this version of history.”
Why does that not surprise me, td?
Your claim that we have the right to just go take oil from nations where it exists, killing thousands of our own people and hundreds of thousands of others, also tells us a lot.
Skram30082
March 20th, 2013
10:45 am
BTW, did anyone contribute to the Scooter Libby Defense Fund?
I did. I sent them a check for 46 cents. And they never cashed it.
fedup
March 20th, 2013
10:45 am
Any war is about money. Follow who enriched themselves and that should lead you to the culprits.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
March 20th, 2013
10:45 am
It is sad people like this can vote.
More passive/aggressive crap.
Own your emotions, sport.
Don’t make them the responsibility of others.
Welcome to the Occupation
March 20th, 2013
10:46 am
Jay Bookman: “I have never had an issue with treating AQ and its affiliates as threats to be eliminated..”
Except when we need help from their affiliates in getting a little dirty work done, right? As is the case right as we speak in Syria, as before in Libya. We need to eliminate them with drones with one hand while we join hands toppling a regime in a strategically placed country with the other and that won’t blow up in our face later, right?
Doggone/GA
March 20th, 2013
10:47 am
“Ah YES, and there we have it ladies and gentlemen!! The mask comes off and one of them finally drops all pretense and admits that regardless of the cost in mayhem and human slaughter and money, it’s ultimately all WORTH IT. Because it’s about imperial hegemony, in its purest naked form”
Heck, the original name for the Iraq invasion showed that: Operation Iraqi Liberation
OIL
Normal, plain and simple
March 20th, 2013
10:48 am
fedup
March 20th, 2013
10:45 am
I believe you. All of these Bush wars, (pun intended), is not for the benefit of national security, but for the benefit of the Military Industrial Complex….Period.
stands for decibels
March 20th, 2013
10:49 am
I almost didn’t want to go there, but I must.
To take it a step further, if we hadn’t had l’affaire Lewinsky, Gore almost certainly would have won in 2000
Jay, if you mean this the way I THINK you think you mean it (and I know, already, of your opinion that Clinton should’ve resigned over that scandal)…
No. America did not disapprove of Clinton. Not to the point that they didn’t forgive him his trespasses. America loved the man.
(Still do, really. America might well be re-re-re-re-electing him in 2016 if mid-20th century conservatives, butthurt over FDR’s ability to get meaningful social programs legislated, hadn’t made such things impossible.)
America knew Clinton was a tomcat when they elected him. They didn’t want their twentysomething daughters behind closed doors with the guy, but they were fine with him calling the shots, otherwise. Clinton was riding 60+% approvals during and after the impeachment proceedings, and Clinton went out with similar numbers. (and this is via Gallup, which if anything probably underreported Clinton’s popularity.)
So if you’re saying that the fibbing-about-an-extramarital fling turned America off that Administration and poisoned the water for Gore and made it close enough for the fake Texan to steal, you are just flat out (and uncharacteristically) wrong.
However–
If you’re saying that Democrat Losership Council types on Team Gore persuaded Al that it somehow made sense to Veepify a tut-tutting prude by the name of Joe Lieberman who’d been prominent in his criticism of Clinton as some kind of insulation against campaign attacks on that score, and that Al thought he needed to “stand on his own” apart from the Big Dog as well, whilst campaigning in 2000 (rather than sensibly recycling a “stay the course” refrain that put Clinton on the stage with Gore every possible moment)…
and THAT stupid reaction to l’affaire Lewinsky made the ticket less popular? you might have something. In fact I’d say you’re right.
But, sadly, I suspect it’s the former bit of Beltway “wisdom” you’re repeating, and Jay, if that’s the case, you are wrong, times infinity, so very very wrong.
(In my humble and utterly amateur, not-a-major-historian, opinion.)
moonbat betty
March 20th, 2013
10:49 am
“betty, notwithstanding how much I enjoy your contributions here, I want to gouge my eyes out over that one! (LOL!)”
Thanks, JamVet.
This is a very touchy subject for everyone and one I wish not to engage.
I wish the dems would bring charges if they have a legitimate case. If they don’t then they are cowards.
In my opinion, it’s time to heal and honor all those who have lost.
And that’s all I have to say about that…
In the middle
March 20th, 2013
10:50 am
I stopped debating the merits of the war as soon as our soldiers feet hit Irag soil. From that moment on, right wrong or indifferent I wanted our military to win quickly and decisively. The constant debate of should or shouldn’t did nothing to help our soldiers and if anything, caused us to be less aggressive than necessary (hence the need for the surge). I will NEVER dishonor those that made the ultimate sacrifice by debasing there lives as having no more meaning than a barrel of oil.
It is too easy and too safe to comment with 20/20 hindsight.
DannyX
March 20th, 2013
10:51 am
The cost of the Iraq war doesn’t matter. Bush said Iraqi oil revenue will pay for the war.
Marty Huggins'
March 20th, 2013
10:51 am
Jay
March 20th, 2013
10:41 am
Ok but that is not what I asked.
I am aware of your position on drones, I agree in basic terms but I do not feel ” proper care” has been taken in targeting, not with the amount of reported innocent children killed and wounded by the strikes.
If we can get enough intel to know what house or business thy are in we can gain enough to strike when there are not so many kids around.
On that I suppose we disagree.
However the original question was do you feel The AJC has done an adequate job of being skeptical of the drone program?
Can you point me to articles written on the subject by The AJC?
Are you taking the administration at their word that proper care is being taken or are you looking at it with a skeptical eye? (Not one to answer just one to think about)
Morality?
March 20th, 2013
10:51 am
Time to pull out of Afghanistan – complete waste of resources and lives. Focus on destroying Iran’s nuclear capabilities and counteract Putin’s desire to aid Iran in their nuclear pursuit.
Jm
March 20th, 2013
10:51 am
“but I’m not talking about an “argument”…I’m talking about a country that decides, for whatever reason, that he IS a tyrant and that for out own good they need to invade us and remove him.”
Well Doggone, I know this is a hypothetical, but if I KNOW one thing, I can just tell you this: the invader will lose.
Morality?
March 20th, 2013
10:52 am
Jay is both OCD and ADD – he has to be perfect but only for a short time.
Doggone/GA
March 20th, 2013
10:53 am
“It is too easy and too safe to comment with 20/20 hindsight.”
I would agree with you…but those of us who paid attention are talking with the FORESIGHT we had AT THAT TIME. Anyone who was here at the time can tell you that *I* was LIVID that Congress passed that authorization to use force. And I still am.
USinUK ... no longer a rainy Friday, but still mildly cranky
March 20th, 2013
10:54 am
“Time to pull out of Afghanistan – complete waste of resources and lives. Focus on destroying Iran’s nuclear capabilities and counteract Putin’s desire to aid Iran in their nuclear pursuit.”
it’s a scary day when Morality talks sense
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
March 20th, 2013
10:54 am
It is too easy and too safe to comment with 20/20 hindsight.
Some of us had 20/20 foresight, and it’s not our fault that you didn’t, sport.
Jefferson
March 20th, 2013
10:54 am
Gore did win, the SC took the prize and gave it to President Bush, and the rest is history.
Marty Huggins'
March 20th, 2013
10:54 am
Doggone/GA
March 20th, 2013
10:44 am
Point taken mr literal. ( definition 2 based on my iPhone)
However, would it not be easy to argue that by giving the president said decision making power they indeed voted to go to war, as there was no real doubt as to the course he would take?
USinUK ... no longer a rainy Friday, but still mildly cranky
March 20th, 2013
10:55 am
Doggone – 10:53 – I wasn’t a Bookmaniac at the time, but I too was livid and protesting against the war
stands for decibels
March 20th, 2013
10:55 am
NONE HAVE BEEN FOUND since 2003.
NONE
NADA
NIENTE
He sent them to Syria. Sean Hannity told me so, anyway.
Morality?
March 20th, 2013
10:55 am
It’s obvious that mistakes were made in Iraq – both sides voted for it and both sides were wrong.
Filter
March 20th, 2013
10:55 am
Scratch It @ 10:31 am
“So – Iraq is worth spending 6 trillion on, but we want to gut Medicare and Social Security? you conservatives are bordering on retarded.
Wow. $6 trillion. Thats a reach..”
I realize that facts are likely to affect you like water did that green lady from the west but here’s an article detailing a study that supports the $6 trillion number. Interesting the last section of the article contains this telling paragraph from the report:
“The report concluded the United States gained little from the war while Iraq was traumatized by it. The war reinvigorated radical Islamist militants in the region, set back women’s rights, and weakened an already precarious healthcare system, the report said. Meanwhile, the $212 billion reconstruction effort was largely a failure with most of that money spent on security or lost to waste and fraud, it said.”
It ends with yet another justification of the war and its $6 trillion dollar price tag by a Bush era sycophant.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/14/us-iraq-war-anniversary-idUSBRE92D0PG20130314
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
March 20th, 2013
10:55 am
the invader will lose.
Not familiar with Temujin, are you?
Doggone/GA
March 20th, 2013
10:56 am
“Well Doggone, I know this is a hypothetical, but if I KNOW one thing, I can just tell you this: the invader will lose”
And do you consider that we have “won” Iraq?
Doggone/GA
March 20th, 2013
10:57 am
“However, would it not be easy to argue that by giving the president said decision making power they indeed voted to go to war, as there was no real doubt as to the course he would take?”
and I made EXACTLY that argument at the time. Congress simply abdicated their CONSTITUTIONAL responsiblity to declare war and handed it to Bush on a silver platter.
Morality?
March 20th, 2013
10:58 am
10:54 – Maybe you are finally seeing the light?
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
March 20th, 2013
10:58 am
IRAQ: “Misled into a mistake, a decade later”
OBAMA: Misled into a mistake, a half-decade later !
Dunwoody Granny
March 20th, 2013
10:59 am
“kurd village”
The bitter joke the left made in 2003 was that we knew very well Saddam had WMDs, because the US had the receipts for them!
Really, WMDs were the second justification Bush had for the invasion. The first was 9/11, but there were too many quick objections that all the 9/11 hijackers were from other countries and there was zero proof that Saddam knew anything at all about it, let alone supported it. The second justification was WMDs, but Hans Blix and Joseph Wilson made that doubtful enough to some of us that by the time the invasion was rolling, the reason had mutated to regime change. Then in became “creating a stable democracy.”
I’m with Granny G. I didn’t buy the war from the start, and people in my office treated me with pity and embarrassment. Neighbors tore down the yard signs I put up. I was a kid during the Vietnam War, and I well remember how that war had broad support in the early stages, but that was nothing like the support for the Iraq invasion in the US. And I’m angry with Bush and Cheney, but most of my fellow countrymen supported them wholeheartedly.
Latrina
March 20th, 2013
10:59 am
“…it was all too easy for those in power to direct that fear wherever they wished…”
The most disconcerting aspect was the way in which the mainstream media swallowed the administration’s BS hook, line and sinker. They really let us down by not doing their job, which was to question and challenge the case for going to war.
It should’ve been plain as day to anyone remotely able to interpret body language that Bush wasn’t being truthful about the WMD claims.
DannyX
March 20th, 2013
10:59 am
“It is too easy and too safe to comment with 20/20 hindsight.”
Jay was not commenting in hindsight during the war, and got most of it right.
A lot of people around here were also commenting about the war over at the Luckovich blog back when that was the only opinion blog. Its not hindsight.
The people that debased our soldiers are not Jay and the bloggers here, it was Bush and his neocon buddies that debased them by starting the stupid war in the first place.
Regnad Kcin
March 20th, 2013
10:59 am
“it’s a scary day when Morality talks sense”
Every once in a while he makes a statement without gratuitous insults that is totally on the mark. I always wonder if he’s been name-jacked.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
March 20th, 2013
10:59 am
Zoso and alittlecommonsense :
Thank you for the liberal quotes on their support of the War in Iraq.
However, Jay and other liberals on here will ignore them as the facts do not support their
political agenda today.
USinUK ... no longer a rainy Friday, but still mildly cranky
March 20th, 2013
11:00 am
“He sent them to Syria. Sean Hannity told me so, anyway.”
he sent them by FedEx! there’s a giant tunnel! the sun was in our eyes and we just didn’t see it!!
oy to the vey
Doggone/GA
March 20th, 2013
11:00 am
“10:54 – Maybe you are finally seeing the light?”
What do you mean “finally”? If Bush had done what he SHOULD have done: gone in, got Osama, and got out. We wouldn’t still have soldiers IN Afghanistan to begin with.
Finn McCool (the system isn't broken; it's fixed)
March 20th, 2013
11:01 am
Certainly one suggestion would be to replace the [Fox News] morning crew (they’re stale, unreformed, a standard SNL joke, and a limitless font of offensiveness) and cut out the -ist comments that emanate daily from their shows. And maybe stop being a one-stop shop for inane stories featuring everyday black people doing or saying dumb things. This is a huge attraction to Fox. This stuff really animates the base and Fox knows it. It’s bigotry porn. And it just helps to makes conservatives radioactive to the groups that Republicans need to broaden their appeal. So, if you want to rebrand and broaden the appeal of Fox (and the Republicans) while keeping it conservative, aggressively ditching the cheap and not so veiled bigotry might be a productive place to start.
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/02/racial-resentment-and-fox-news
stands for decibels
March 20th, 2013
11:01 am
Thank you for the liberal quotes
yeah, we’ve never seen THAT copy/paste of pre-war quotes a billion times, dumped by some right-wing wanker, EVER before.
USinUK ... no longer a rainy Friday, but still mildly cranky
March 20th, 2013
11:03 am
“yeah, we’ve never seen THAT copy/paste of pre-war quotes a billion times, dumped by some right-wing wanker”
which STILL conveniently ignores the fact that Congress critters don’t have the same access to the same intel that the WH has
Stevie Ray
March 20th, 2013
11:03 am
JAY
It’s amazing at that time that Rice, other senior decision makers, Bill Clinton and the like were convinced of the Iraqi threat. I often wonder why so much stock was put into validity of whatever data flowed thru a intelligence group which became a shell of it’s former self.
War is never an option IMO unless our shores are directly threatened. Seems every president has to use military mite simply because we have such amazing defense toys..
It is easy (and possibly accurate) to lay 100% fault on the decison making at the time. I wonder if we will ever know what we currently don’t know…
BO need not make the same mistake by popping around Iran…can you imagine?
Marty Huggins'
March 20th, 2013
11:03 am
Doggone/GA
March 20th, 2013
10:57 am
So then what was your problem with my question?
Should all be prosecuted or hanged I believe was the terminology used by that poster?
Including the ones who voted in favor. They gave permission or allowed it to happen depending upon ones opinion. Either way without their vote it could never have happened. No question about that.
It’s called Bush’s war as are most wars attributed to the president, but without the permission of those votes would they even have a choice.
Steve
March 20th, 2013
11:03 am
@Filter, thank you. That report of the total cost plus interest at 6 trillion for the Iraq war will never make it to Faux News, hence the “conservatives” on here will never really grasp how much war is costing tax payers.
td
March 20th, 2013
11:04 am
Jay
March 20th, 2013
10:44 am
“I seemed to have never read this version of history.”
Why does that not surprise me, td?
Your claim that we have the right to just go take oil from nations where it exists, killing thousands of our own people and hundreds of thousands of others, also tells us a lot.
It should tell you that me and a (I still believe most of the nation) are realist. If our economy does not survive then we do not survive as a nation and our children do not prosper. SH was a threat to the free flow of oil and using your own theory Iran was and is a threat to the free flow of oil (the military bases would have held them at bay).
Morality?
March 20th, 2013
11:04 am
10 least tourist friendly countries is led by Bolivia, Venezuela is #2 and Iran is only #4. Most friendly – Iceland followed by New Zealand.
Steve
March 20th, 2013
11:04 am
This isn’t hindsite for me. I was against THIS war from the start. Yet most people were sucked into the war rally cries back then. not me.
Stevie Ray
March 20th, 2013
11:04 am
I presume the great Colin Powell quote has been surfaced already..you know “if you break a county you own it”..?
Doggone/GA
March 20th, 2013
11:06 am
“It’s called Bush’s war as are most wars attributed to the president, but without the permission of those votes would they even have a choice”
Do you really think the President can’t get us involved in a war unless Congress says so? What was all the fuss about, then, with the Libya action?
stands for decibels
March 20th, 2013
11:06 am
If our economy does not survive then we do not survive as a nation and our children do not prosper.
And nothing makes an economy thrive like vanity wars to protect access to filthy, climate-changing fossil fuels.
godless heathen - owner of many things he does not need
March 20th, 2013
11:07 am
yeah, we’ve never seen THAT copy/paste of pre-war quotes a billion times, dumped by some right-wing wanker, EVER before.
Anything in today’s blog we haven’t seen EVER before?
JamVet
March 20th, 2013
11:07 am
…yeah and we feel that way about the Kennedy’s (sic).
Who is this we that you speak for, willie?
Do you have so little conviction in your own beliefs that you have to include imaginary backers to make them seem important?
It matters not what you (plural) vs you (singular) feel about them, willie, you have cast your lot with these marauding, regime change lunatics.
And for no other reason than that they have an R after their name.
Which I’m fairly certain makes the families of those four thousand, four hundred and eighty six Americans who died because of the sheer stupidity and hubris of George Walker Bush and Richard Bruce Cheney, feel a damn bit better. And only because of huge medical advances, is that number not 12,000 higher.
Nor the 31,926 who were injured, nor the 1,500+ major limb amputations and on and on and sickeningly on.
And for the willfully myopic, why an R is not likely to see the inside of the West Wing for a long time…
Jm
March 20th, 2013
11:07 am
Doggone 10:56. Yep. For reference, please google the biography of Saddam Hussein.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
March 20th, 2013
11:08 am
If our economy does not survive then we do not survive as a nation and our children do not prosper.
The ends justify the means.
Not rational, rationalizing.
“The road to hell is paved with good intentions.”
– Thomas “Saint Bernard of Clairvaux” Jefferson
stands for decibels
March 20th, 2013
11:09 am
Anything in today’s blog we haven’t seen EVER before?
Well, my rant @ 8.02 about Janeane Garofalo, that was at least somewhat original, wasn’t it?
I tried, anyway.
Morality?
March 20th, 2013
11:09 am
11:00 – Clinton knew where Osama was, had a chance to terminate but for political reasons – PASSED. Why don’t you blame Clinton instead of it’s always Bush’s fault? Bush didn’t create Osama – and we were attacked on 911.
Doggone/GA
March 20th, 2013
11:09 am
“Doggone 10:56. Yep. For reference, please google the biography of Saddam Hussein.”
No need. Not anymore than I need to google the biography of ANY other dictator. None of whom we attacked
In the middle
March 20th, 2013
11:09 am
If you look at my post I did not say one way or the other where I stood on the merits of the war. I cannot change what happened and cannot go back in time to force a new decision or sprinkle fairy dust to make it all go away. What happened is done, time to look after the troops…… I can just as easily squeel about how I hate Bush, hate the war, look at me, look at me. but at this point does it really matter.
The war was a huge waste of resources when you look at the end result.
DannyX
March 20th, 2013
11:11 am
Love it td! Shock and Awe for oil.
Jesus was up in heaven watching Shock and Awe with his buddies Matthew, Mark Luke and John.
Jesus: Did you see that one??? Woo hooo, that took out 10 children.
Mark: That was a cruise missile, great shot!
Luke: Bang! Take that Iraqis.
John: These idiots better learn their lesson. America needs its oil
Matthew:
B
O
O
M
!
Stevie Ray
March 20th, 2013
11:11 am
td
March 20th, 2013
11:04 am
We don’t need the damn oil…no amount of oil is worth the dead and wounded who returned for nothing.
BTW has BO gotten off his a%s and pushed through delinquent benefit payments to those promised? He needs to get those alledged leadership skills in motion. 2000% increase in delay for some…
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/14/veterans-benefits_n_2875637.html
JamVet
March 20th, 2013
11:12 am
I wish the dems would bring charges if they have a legitimate case. If they don’t then they are cowards.
WORD!
In my opinion, it’s time to heal and honor all those who have lost.
Word, again. And by sweeping these tear soaked memories under the rug, I believe we dishonor those men and their families and keep ourselves from healing.
And that’s all I have to say about that…
You’re a good egg, betty gump!
Jm
March 20th, 2013
11:13 am
Reports are coming in from Israel that President Obama’s limousine, often called “The Beast,” has broken down. You might be wondering how the most protected vehicle in the world could break down on an overseas visit, and the answer would surprise you. Apparently, somebody filled The Beast with diesel fuel instead of gasoline, according The Times of Israel. As the report goes…
“The Americans filled it up with diesel, rather than petrol,” reports Channel 2 – stressing that it was the Americans, not the Israelis.
What does the Secret Service do when the President’s ride has been compromised this way? Since calling a cab is out of the question, they reportedly have a replacement limousine being flown in from in Jordan. “Son of Beast,” we’ll call it.
Stevie Ray
March 20th, 2013
11:13 am
DannyX
March 20th, 2013
11:11 am
Can’t disagree with that…unfortunately, the killing of innocents continues as we speak…If we have a more compact military, perhaps more judicial use will be the result…
SBinF
March 20th, 2013
11:13 am
You call it misleading.
Some might say it was outright lying. Making statements without verifying their validity is lying.
moonbat betty
March 20th, 2013
11:14 am
Well said, In the middle
Steve
March 20th, 2013
11:15 am
Again, as usual, progressives were right about something. We usually are, and time usually bears this out.
Marty Huggins'
March 20th, 2013
11:15 am
Well seems everyone here was against the war from the jump!
Me I was a young buck in college not really informed and was still to obedient to authority without much skepticism full disclosure.
Wonder were all the folks were who agreed with it
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-08-27-poll-usat_x.htm
Notice the second highest… Seemed 9 out of 10 at time
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/behind-the-numbers/2007/07/approval_highs_and_lows.html
Welcome to the Occupation
March 20th, 2013
11:15 am
“Heck, the original name for the Iraq invasion showed that: Operation Iraqi Liberation
OIL”
It’s more than simply oil, Doggone.
It’s about symbolism. Assertion of hegemony and a flexing of unilateral will as the dominant force in geopolitical affairs. Pax Americana to out-Rome Rome.
Stevie Ray
March 20th, 2013
11:16 am
Can anyone on this forum convince me that we have engaged in any wars since WWII that were vital to the security of our shores..or otherwise was worth the death of a single citizen?
stands for decibels
March 20th, 2013
11:17 am
Can anyone on this forum convince me that we have engaged in any wars since WWII that were vital to the security of our shores..or otherwise was worth the death of a single citizen?
Get a haircut, hippie.
USinUK ... no longer a rainy Friday, but still mildly cranky
March 20th, 2013
11:17 am
“Most friendly – Iceland followed by New Zealand”
Iceland is on my bucket list so that I can see the northern lights.
New Zealand looks lovely, but definitely further down the list
td
March 20th, 2013
11:18 am
Jefferson
March 20th, 2013
10:54 am
Gore did win, the SC took the prize and gave it to President Bush, and the rest is history.
That conspiracy myth has been debunked so many time it is not even funny any longer.
USinUK ... no longer a rainy Friday, but still mildly cranky
March 20th, 2013
11:18 am
” Get a haircut, hippie.”
Morality?
March 20th, 2013
11:18 am
Going to see Elton John in concert tonight in Macon, Ga. – see, I don’t agree with some of his politics but I believe, unlike the far, far left that he has a right to his opinion and I am not going to boycott him for it. I will also be eating at Chick – Fil – A.
godless heathen - owner of many things he does not need
March 20th, 2013
11:18 am
And nothing makes an economy thrive like vanity wars to protect access to filthy, climate-changing fossil fuels.
And you think that if Iraq blocked the Strait of Hormuz, that President Obama or even the mythical President Gore wouldn’t have a carrier group there in a NY minute to maintain the free flow of oil?
Matt321
March 20th, 2013
11:19 am
Someone upthread used comments by Scott Ritter in 1998 to support the invasion of Iraq. That’s ironic, because Scott Ritter, the UN weapons inspector, OPPOSED any invasion of Iraq. Here is what he was saying in 2002 in War on Iraq: What Team Bush Doesn’t Want You To Know:
“There’s no doubt Iraq hasn’t fully complied with its disarmament obligations as set forth by the Security Council in its resolution. But on the other hand, since 1998 Iraq has been fundamentally disarmed: 90-95% of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction capacity has been verifiably eliminated … We have to remember that this missing 5-10% doesn’t necessarily constitute a threat … It constitutes bits and pieces of a weapons program which in its totality doesn’t amount to much, but which is still prohibited … We can’t give Iraq a clean bill of health, therefore we can’t close the book on their weapons of mass destruction. But simultaneously, we can’t reasonably talk about Iraqi non-compliance as representing a de-facto retention of a prohibited capacity worthy of war. (page 28)
We eliminated the nuclear program, and for Iraq to have reconstituted it would require undertaking activities that would have been eminently detectable by intelligence services. (page 32)
If Iraq were producing [chemical] weapons today, we’d have proof, pure and simple. (page 37)
[A]s of December 1998 we had no evidence Iraq had retained biological weapons, nor that they were working on any. In fact, we had a lot of evidence to suggest Iraq was in compliance. (page 46)]”
USinUK ... no longer a rainy Friday, but still mildly cranky
March 20th, 2013
11:19 am
“Reports are coming in from Israel that President Obama’s limousine, often called “The Beast,” has broken down. ”
it got stuck in Ireland
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13507728
JamVet
March 20th, 2013
11:20 am
If it was the wrong thing to do, why did the democrats in congress vote for it too?
And THIS is a simple-minded point that should never go unchallenged.
Why do vinny and Morality and others allow their neoconservatism to cause them to fail so abysmally at mathematics?
Jay, myself and others have REPEATEDLY pointed out that a substantial MAJORITY OF DEMOCRATS VOTED AGAINST THE WAR.
This war belongs smack in the lap of the 97+% of Republican lapdogs – and their backers – who voted to allow the Worst Ever to do you know what in you know where…