Foreign governments with U.S. writers on their payroll?

This is pretty damn scummy:

“A range of mainstream American publications printed paid propaganda for the government of Malaysia, much of it focused on the campaign against a pro-democracy figure there.

The payments to conservative American opinion writers — whose work appeared in outlets from the Huffington Post and San Francisco Examiner to the Washington Times to National Review and RedState — emerged in a filing this week to the Department of Justice. The filing under the Foreign Agent Registration Act outlines a campaign spanning May 2008 to April 2011 and led by Joshua Trevino, a conservative pundit, who received $389,724.70 under the contract and paid smaller sums to a series of conservative writers….

Trevino’s subcontractors included conservative writer Ben Domenech, who made $36,000 from the arrangement, and Rachel Ehrenfeld, the director of the American Center for Democracy, who made $30,000. Seth Mandel, an editor at Commentary, made $5,500. Brad Jackson, writing at the time for RedState, made $24,700. Overall, 10 writers were part of the arrangement.”

You take secret, undisclosed money from a foreign government to write hit pieces in U.S. media against a man, in this case Anwar Ibrahim, who is struggling to bring democracy to his country and was beaten and imprisoned for years for daring to challenge the dictatorial government? (Russia has apparently run similar pay-to-say operations.)

Much of Trevino’s work under the Malaysian contract has been removed by the outlets that published it. But you can get a taste of its amoral quality from this piece that was published as a rebuttal to a Trevino column.

And here’s a Rachel Ehrenfeld piece, condemning Ibrahim for “careless sexual behavior” among other things.

We already know of course that “you can’t believe everything that’s on the Internet.” But paid agents of foreign governments masquerading as American journalists takes things to a dangerous level and says a lot about the character of those involved.

UPDATE: Among those named as receiving money from Malaysia in Trevino’s belated filing as a foreign agent is Christopher Badeaux. Here’s a small sampling of his Malaysia-related work at RedState.com:

“Najib Razak, the Prime Minister of Malaysia, has been on a more or less singular crusade to convince the Muslim world — and the West — that there is a path for moderate Islam in the world, that Islam does not equal terror, and that the taking of a life is contrary to Islam and civilization. His speech at Oxford was of a piece with that….

The salient point here is not whether we agree with the prime minister’s theological assertions, but rather we can appreciate the extraordinary effort he is making here, and the importance for the United States of his efforts.”

And:

In Malaysia, Anwar Ibrahim, the leader of Malaysia’s opposition, has apparently been caught in adultery, with video evidence that Dartmouth scientists say nearly certainly implicates him. The major dailies are calling on him to resign. For three years, after failing to topple the governing party in the 2008 elections, he has crisscrossed the planet telling anyone and everyone who would listen how corrupt and evil the governing party is. And yet despite all of this — despite his stated certainty that his opposition coalition of socialists, Islamists, and yuppie liberals is the only chance his country has to avoid certain doom at the hands of the centrist coalition that has been re-elected time and again in Malaysia, he has refused to resign.”

– Jay Bookman

1,428 comments Add your comment

Brosephus™ - If do right, no can defense

March 2nd, 2013
11:32 pm

Doggone

Don’t you get it??? It’s all about Christianity, nevermind the fact that this is not a theocratic country where Christianity is the official language. This is coming from people that associate with the same crowd that bleats the “creeping Sharia” stuff. Priceless!!!!!

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DoggoneGA

March 2nd, 2013
11:33 pm

“A parent molesting his children is not wrong because it is illegal – See more at: http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2013/03/02/foreign-governments-with-u-s-writers-on-their-payroll/?cp=8#comment-1249535

It is illegal. Whether or not *I* consider it immoral is beside the point. It is breaking the law. And it is against the law, not because it’s “immoral” but because it is a harmful to another citizen of this country.

Fred ™

March 2nd, 2013
11:33 pm

GMare, you old biddy. Your vagina your choice my ass. You can no more get preggers than I can lol.

Welcome back. You doing ok? Health good or at least getting better?

They call me MISTER JamVet.

March 2nd, 2013
11:33 pm

The GOP’s anti-women extremism means that this seven election losing streak – in terms of women voters – is just cranking up.

And at this rate, I’m not certain that they will ever again be able to earn a majority of female voters in this country.

Which is awesome…

I had NO idea that Rundgren was on this song…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaUkTaIegLQ

DoggoneGA

March 2nd, 2013
11:35 pm

“What in the h3ll does spontaneous abortion (nature or God terminating a pregnancy) have to do with intentional abortion (human taking a life)? – See more at: http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2013/03/02/foreign-governments-with-u-s-writers-on-their-payroll/?cp=8#sthash.Qcn8cGNr.dpuf

If voluntary abortion is taking a human life, then so is spontaneous abortion. Either way, the pregnancy is ended

Fred ™

March 2nd, 2013
11:36 pm

I do not agree with abortion. It is against my religion. As such I will NEVER get an abortion. The rest of you can bite me.

bman.

March 2nd, 2013
11:36 pm

Doggone .. .. You’re up an hour later than usual. Hanging in there?

getalife

March 2nd, 2013
11:38 pm

I don’t think government should be in our bedrooms.

It is creepy so we should cut that.

bman.

March 2nd, 2013
11:39 pm

“I don’t think government should be in our bedrooms”

Unless there are guns in the bedrooms, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_YTM_eAWnQ

Brosephus™ - If do right, no can defense

March 2nd, 2013
11:39 pm

Fred

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I’m still waiting on any one of these “conservatives” here to man up and actually ask me my beliefs instead of trying to paint my beliefs on me. All I’ve gotten so far is the customary “you libs think” crap, yet they haven’t conjured up the testicular fortitude to ask what my beliefs are. Hell, even bman and I traded a few posts on that very thing. If they were smart enough to actually read things for comprehension, they would already know my beliefs.

DoggoneGA

March 2nd, 2013
11:40 pm

“Doggone .. .. You’re up an hour later than usual. Hanging in there? – See more at: http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2013/03/02/foreign-governments-with-u-s-writers-on-their-payroll/?cp=9#comment-1249542

Yeah for a change. I wasn’t feeling well yesterday and I slept really late today, so now I’m having trouble getting sleepy. And if I go to bed and can’t get to sleep, I’ll just get mad and that will make it even harder to get sleepy. I’m constantly fighting the fact that my body seems to think that getting up early in the morning means getting up at 11:30 am!

td

March 2nd, 2013
11:40 pm

DoggoneGA

March 2nd, 2013
11:35 pm

God or nature takes human life everyday be it abortion or the end of life, human beings are not allowed to just take another human life.

Like I said earlier you think you are equal to God.

Brosephus™ - If do right, no can defense

March 2nd, 2013
11:40 pm

Unless there are guns in the bedrooms, right?

Nope. If one is abiding by the law, then the government needs to leave them alone. Period.

getalife

March 2nd, 2013
11:41 pm

“Unless there are guns in the bedrooms, right?”

I am pro gun.

appleseed

March 2nd, 2013
11:41 pm

If a girl gets knocked up,knows the father,and decides to get an abortion.Does the father have any say in the decision to abort?Now if she decides to have the baby,does he have to provide support?

Fred ™

March 2nd, 2013
11:41 pm

Brocephus: Unless I’m VERY mistaken, your beliefs on abortion are the same as mine. With the same results. We probably share the same beliefs on the “gay issue.” I’ll ask you next time I see you lol.

DoggoneGA

March 2nd, 2013
11:43 pm

“God or nature takes human life everyday be it abortion or the end of life, human beings are not allowed to just take another human life. – See more at: http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2013/03/02/foreign-governments-with-u-s-writers-on-their-payroll/?cp=9#comment-1249548

And again, a foetus is not a human life.

“Like I said earlier you think you are equal to God. – See more at: http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2013/03/02/foreign-governments-with-u-s-writers-on-their-payroll/?cp=9#comment-1249548

Back at you. It’s not ME trying to force my religious beliefs on others.

Fred ™

March 2nd, 2013
11:43 pm

If a girl gets knocked up,knows the father,and decides to get an abortion.Does the father have any say in the decision to abort?Now if she decides to have the baby,does he have to provide support?

No and yes. Sucks don’t it? Get over it.It’s the law of the land. You won’t change it, so use a condom.

breckenridge

March 2nd, 2013
11:44 pm

“What in the h3ll does spontaneous abortion (nature or God terminating a pregnancy) have to do with intentional abortion (human taking a life)”

Oh boo hoo, intentional abortion is the taking of life…….that’s nothing but liberal clap-trap.

If you want to pay to raise the child of some half-baked 16 year old high school dropout from Appalachia or some big city ghetto, who has no way of ever possibly paying to raise a child themselves, knock yourself out. Start a charity, take up a collection. But leave taxpayer dollars out of it.

Tom Middleton

March 2nd, 2013
11:44 pm

I think it’s safe to say, Jay, that conservatives are only democratic when the money is flowing up to them, not down. Real (full-time) democracy belongs to the Dems, but then we already know that from our watching this last election!

moonbat betty

March 2nd, 2013
11:44 pm

So, what’s next?

Evolution?

j/k.

This is the first and last time I ever chime in on a abortion debate.

It’s always the SSDD…

Chicken Train

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSkN9m7kh9A

Towncrier

March 2nd, 2013
11:44 pm

“Let’s try this little exercise here. Answer a simple question for me. What is MY personal belief about abortion? Not what you THINK, but what I think? Answer that, and then we can get on to your “code” crap.”

Let’s not play guessing games. If you want to tell me what it is, then do so.

DoggoneGA

March 2nd, 2013
11:45 pm

“Does the father have any say in the decision to abort?”

No, if he wanted to woman involved to agree with him that the pregnancy should continue he should be more choosy in his partner.

“Now if she decides to have the baby,does he have to provide support? – See more at: http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2013/03/02/foreign-governments-with-u-s-writers-on-their-payroll/?cp=9#comment-1249554

Yes, he was equally responsible for the pregnancy existing. Why should he have the fun, but not the expense?

Look before I leap...

March 2nd, 2013
11:45 pm

Does anyone here think that it is a bit odd that those who post on this blog who are rabidly pro-gun are the same ones who are rabidly anti-abortion?

The idea of being able to own a gun to protect oneself (or one’s family) and therefore use deadly force to to do so indoicates that is possible to believe that human life is sacrosanct but only to a point. Then it follows that the idea that the justification for taking a life is only a matter of degree and perhaps perspective.

That we as a society can condemn, then put to death, some members who have legally been judged unfit to continue life within our midst but proclaim it is unjust to terminate a pregnancy, just boggles my mind.

We can decry the death of the innocent, but in the grand scheme, if one believes that the the afterlife is paradise and the innocent will be heralded and welcomed into heaven, is that not better than condemning that soul to a life on this mortal coil where they are unwanted, unwelcome and unloved?

Brosephus™ - If do right, no can defense

March 2nd, 2013
11:46 pm

If a girl gets knocked up,knows the father,and decides to get an abortion.Does the father have any say in the decision to abort?

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/02/texas-teen-wins-right-to-give-birth-over-parents-objections/

moonbat betty

March 2nd, 2013
11:47 pm

“Unless there are guns in the bedrooms, right?”

bman, good point!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1XESnVLszs

They call me MISTER JamVet.

March 2nd, 2013
11:47 pm

Yep, ever since Ronnie let the religious nutjobs into the inner sanctum, Eddie Meese and the sex police have been peeking into our bedrooms and keeping score.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaUkTaIegLQ

Brosephus™ - If do right, no can defense

March 2nd, 2013
11:49 pm

Let’s not play guessing games. If you want to tell me what it is, then do so.

You’ve been playing this game all night. You have been telling me what I believe and then arguing against that. Not once have you actually asked. I’m simply asking you to be man enough to ask what I really believe. If you’re really interested in debating, then don’t you think you should know my actual beliefs instead of relying on this “you libs” or “you progressives” stuff? After all, we’re talking to each other and not talking to groups or about groups.

If you’re not man enough to ask what my beliefs are or find out what they are, then you’re obviously not man enough to engage in a serious and reasonable debate.

moonbat betty

March 2nd, 2013
11:49 pm

“Does anyone here think that it is a bit odd that those who post on this blog who are rabidly pro-gun are the same ones who are rabidly anti-abortion?”

Protection of the innocent and law-abiding.

Look before I leap...

March 2nd, 2013
11:49 pm

“Like I said earlier you think you are equal to God. – ”

Just as you would if you emptied a Glock into an intruder in your house.

Josef

March 2nd, 2013
11:50 pm

Breckenridge

@ 11:44

ESAD….you’re not worth the powder it’d take to blow you to hell.

Fred ™

March 2nd, 2013
11:51 pm

This is the first and last time I ever chime in on a abortion debate

Amen sister. You won’t ever change anyone’s mind and you will ALWAYS get sht from one side or the other. I won’t talk about it either except to close friends in a very casual setting.

getalife

March 2nd, 2013
11:52 pm

“Eddie Meese and the sex police have been peeking into our bedrooms and keeping score”

It is creepy and not freedom to choose.

I don’t want to know about other American’s sex life.

TMI.

Towncrier

March 2nd, 2013
11:52 pm

“That we as a society can condemn, then put to death, some members who have legally been judged unfit to continue life within our midst but proclaim it is unjust to terminate a pregnancy, just boggles my mind.”

Well, abortions are not problematic when the fetus pulls a knife on its mother. Those suckers need to be put down – plain and simple.

Just a thought there, buddy, but might it not have something to do with the culpability of the person being killed?

Brosephus™ - If do right, no can defense

March 2nd, 2013
11:53 pm

Fred @ 11:51

Boy, do we have conversation material for the next get together or what? :lol:

Josef

March 2nd, 2013
11:53 pm

Moonbat
Evolution? Apparently it’s still a theory, judging from the slugs hereabouts… :-)

Towncrier

March 2nd, 2013
11:54 pm

“I’m simply asking you to be man enough to ask what I really believe.”

I’ll bite: what are your beliefs respecting abortion?

Fred ™

March 2nd, 2013
11:54 pm

you tell him josef.

I still owe you that email of thanks lol. It will come……… I never forget those who stand by me.

DoggoneGA

March 2nd, 2013
11:55 pm

“ou won’t ever change anyone’s mind”

You don’t know that for sure. You might not change the mind of the people answering back, you will never know what effect you might be having on the people who come here and read but who never post.

Look before I leap...

March 2nd, 2013
11:55 pm

“Protection of the innocent and law-abiding.”

Protection of the innocent has some merit as an argument
Law-abiding – not so much.

If we (as in the state) execute someone, it is either revenge or deterrence.
In either case, it is taking a life.

Fred ™

March 2nd, 2013
11:57 pm

Boy, do we have conversation material for the next get together or what?

Yeah we do, but I gotta tell you, when it comes to junk in the trunk I am ALL white boy. I want the little ass…………….. me and brother O argue about that all the time. LOL I think I made him mad last time arguing about that although I don’t know why. We all “like” what we like…….

Brosephus™ - If do right, no can defense

March 2nd, 2013
11:57 pm

That we as a society can condemn, then put to death, some members who have legally been judged unfit to continue life within our midst but proclaim it is unjust to terminate a pregnancy, just boggles my mind.

“All lives are equal, but some lives are more equal than others.”
–Thomas “Orwell” Jackson

Oscar

March 2nd, 2013
11:59 pm

Abortion and capital punishment are separate issues and have no connection to each other.

Brosephus™ - If do right, no can defense

March 2nd, 2013
11:59 pm

I’ll bite: what are your beliefs respecting abortion?

Thank you.

I do not believe in abortion. If I help to create a child, I want to raise that child.

Towncrier

March 3rd, 2013
12:00 am

“I do not believe in abortion.”

Why?

Brosephus™ - If do right, no can defense

March 3rd, 2013
12:03 am

Why?

Because, if God has granted me the opportunity to be a father, I take that as his will. My wife and I were married for 8 years with no kids or any hint at pregnancy. When God saw fit for us to be parents, we became parents. I didn’t question his judgement.

moonbat betty

March 3rd, 2013
12:03 am

“Evolution? Apparently it’s still a theory, judging from the slugs hereabouts…”

Well we could always skip to “global warming” then…

Look before I leap...

March 3rd, 2013
12:04 am

“Just a thought there, buddy, but might it not have something to do with the culpability of the person being killed?

Your post was amusing but you made my point for me.
Life is either sacred or it’s not. It’s right to kill in some cricumstances or its not

When you start to make exceptions to suit your personal view of the world, then it is open for others to make their own exceptions.

getalife

March 3rd, 2013
12:05 am

I found the women a little crazier in Georgia.

I had one that told me she was pregnant, decided to get abortion but took my money to buy drugs and was never pregnant.

I got played so I laughed and thought I just paid for sex.

G Mare

March 3rd, 2013
12:08 am

Hi, Fred. I see you are the same old woman hater you always were – must say I feel sorry for your mama & grandma. As for my health, it has been a long, slow recovery (well I am OLD, ya know). Thanks for asking, you young whippersnapper you! :)

Towncrier

March 3rd, 2013
12:09 am

“Because, if God has granted me the opportunity to be a father, I take that as his will.”

Okay. Do you think He approves of premarital, extra-marital or homosexual sex? Do you think He approves of people terminating pregnancies in any or all cases? If you think he does or does not, why?

moonbat betty

March 3rd, 2013
12:09 am

“I got played so I laughed and thought I just paid for sex.”

True – Was probably cheaper than dating her.

Fred ™

March 3rd, 2013
12:10 am

I believe in abortion. It happens every day, how can I NOT “believe” in it? Whether I am in favor of it or not is a different question. Whether or not my opinion matters or not is yet another question. And whether or not I condemn those who do not believe as I do is yet a third question. And whether or not I will EVER share with the folks here my EXPERIENCE with abortion is a fourth question.

I have a feeling Brocephus that you will get away with your 11:59 because there are few folks here lol. Otherwise, youwould be having folks put all KINDS of crap in your mouth because of that one simple statement. I know you. I know who you are. I know what you mean there. I know that others don’t and will read all kinds of sht into it. I also know you don’t care because you are a MAN. (Chest bump lol).

Brosephus™ - If do right, no can defense

March 3rd, 2013
12:10 am

Towncrier

The reason I asked you that is because, the entire night you’ve been debating me as though I am advocating abortion. I am actually advocating freedom. It doesn’t matter whether the topic is abortion, gun control, or anything else. My position is that if our laws say it’s legal and you have the freedom to do so, then express your freedom.

I even made the point of explaining that as a means of personal responsibility, but that point flew right over the head of both Scout and td.

Look before I leap...

March 3rd, 2013
12:10 am

“Abortion and capital punishment are separate issues and have no connection to each other.”

If you are anti-abortion, both involved terminating a life – that is the connection.

getalife

March 3rd, 2013
12:12 am

“True – Was probably cheaper than dating her.”

She had tattoos on her back and I was hammered.

The sex was not that good so it was not worth it.

Fred ™

March 3rd, 2013
12:13 am

Hi, Fred. I see you are the same old woman hater you always were

Just damn. LAST time you said I was an old fart hater. Will you decide who it is I hate and give me a list so I can keep up dammit?

But all in all I’m glad that whether it’s a woman hater, or an OLD woman hater that I am, that you are still around to be hated on. If you need anything let me know.

Towncrier

March 3rd, 2013
12:14 am

“Your post was amusing but you made my point for me. Life is either sacred or it’s not. It’s right to kill in some cricumstances or its not.”

I think you are engaging in an either-or fallacy. Let’s go down the path you are leading us. Is human life the only life that is sacred? How about the life of a squirrel or fish? How about that of an ant? That of a one cell organism? What would you say?

Brosephus™ - If do right, no can defense

March 3rd, 2013
12:14 am

Okay. Do you think He approves of premarital, extra-marital or homosexual sex? Do you think He approves of people terminating pregnancies in any or all cases? If you think he does or does not, why?

Yes to all. If he didn’t, he wouldn’t give us the free will to have the option to engage in such things or not. If nobody ever sinned, there would be no need to repent for anything, and one has to repent of their sins and accept God in order to be saved.

Does he give us the knowledge to know right from wrong? Yes he does. Not using that knowledge, however, does not automatically doom a person to eternal damnation as they can repent of their sins. If they are sincere in their asking for forgiveness, then forgiveness is given.

moonbat betty

March 3rd, 2013
12:14 am

Hi G Mare,

Hope you are gettin better every day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oISIMqIBmaQ

appleseed

March 3rd, 2013
12:16 am

She tell you that you was the father?Took your money.bought drugs,and she was crazy.

bman.

March 3rd, 2013
12:16 am

“She had tattoos on her back and I was hammered.
The sex was not that good so it was not worth”

lol

Look before I leap...

March 3rd, 2013
12:17 am

“Okay. Do you think He approves of premarital, extra-marital or homosexual sex?”

Not gonna answer for Bro – but will weigh in with my opinion.
Yes, No, Yes

1. Marriage is a pretty recent societal construct. Humans were walking and making babies LONG before the idea of marriage ever was conceived.

2.Only because when you marry, you take a vow (usually) to forsake all others. I think God expects people to honor their promises.

3. I don’t think God intended gay people to be miserable and miss out on one His greatest gifts.

Fred ™

March 3rd, 2013
12:17 am

<i.If you are anti-abortion, both involved terminating a life – that is the connection.

That’s pretty weak chief. I don’t support murder but if I come in and find you raping my 10 year old daughter I WILL kill you or die trying.

Brosephus™ - If do right, no can defense

March 3rd, 2013
12:18 am

I know that others don’t and will read all kinds of sht into it. I also know you don’t care because you are a MAN. (Chest bump lol).

:)

You know me so well!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg

Those are my personal beliefs. That said, I don’t have the right to force my beliefs on anybody who does not share them. That’s the good thing about being American. We actually have the freedom to NOT have to believe the same stuff all the time.

DoggoneGA

March 3rd, 2013
12:18 am

Bro “Does he give us the knowledge to know right from wrong? – See more at: http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2013/03/02/foreign-governments-with-u-s-writers-on-their-payroll/?cp=9#comment-1249576

I would make a different argument. I would say that he gives us the ABILITY to know right from wrong, but we have to get the knowledge of WHAT is right and wrong from the society around us, to start. But ultimately, it is up to each of us to decide what we view as right and wrong. Then, if we are deeply at odds with our society, it is up to the society to determine if we are “off” enough that society needs to be protected from us.

getalife

March 3rd, 2013
12:21 am

“She tell you that you was the father?Took your money.bought drugs,and she was crazy ”

She lied about being pregnant to get the money.

Fred ™

March 3rd, 2013
12:23 am

Bro!!!!!!!!!!!! I love the honey badger video. I have posted that a million times at 2 million places lol. Believe it or not but the first time I saw that video it had less that 200 hits.

Brosephus™ - If do right, no can defense

March 3rd, 2013
12:24 am

Doggone

I can accept that argument. It might not change my belief system, but I can see the logic behind it. The reason being that it isn’t always society that teaches us right from wrong. You could be alone in the woods with no contact with anybody and learn not to put your hand in fire. I know that’s not quite germane to the conversation, but just an example that doesn’t rely on society teaching or determining things. Some things are left to nature.

Brosephus™ - If do right, no can defense

March 3rd, 2013
12:25 am

Fred

His other videos are a hoot too…

Fred ™

March 3rd, 2013
12:28 am

But ultimately, it is up to each of us to decide what we view as right and wrong. Then, if we are deeply at odds with our society, it is up to the society to determine if we are “off” enough that society needs to be protected from us.

That is a VERY deep thought and I need to ponder upon it before I can comment on it. I’m talking Marianas Trench deep. I’m not kidding. I think that is the most thought provoking thing I have ever read. It is the point where morals, religion, civil liberties, and rational thought all collide.

Wow.

Fred ™

March 3rd, 2013
12:29 am

I’m out. Y’all be chilly. Someone get Gmare’s dialup working faster lol.

Look before I leap...

March 3rd, 2013
12:29 am

@TC

Well you hit the nail on the head there, the question of sanctity of life is an “either or fallacy”.

Human survival depends on the sacrifice of life, for sustenance, for protection, for a variety of reasons.

The question therefore is, what constitutes “human survival”? That answer gets murky in a hurry.

Towncrier

March 3rd, 2013
12:30 am

“The reason I asked you that is because, the entire night you’ve been debating me as though I am advocating abortion. I am actually advocating freedom. It doesn’t matter whether the topic is abortion, gun control, or anything else. My position is that if our laws say it’s legal and you have the freedom to do so, then express your freedom. I even made the point of explaining that as a means of personal responsibility, but that point flew right over the head of both Scout and td.”

Alright, thanks for sharing your views. I can’t speak fro Scout or td, but I can say for myself that I don’t understand how someone who wants to be a Christian would ever advocate for things that God would disapprove of. That’s why I was pressing you with further questions. I can understand having to accept laws that have been enacted despite God’s wishes or one’s own, but not ever condoning them in one’s heart. Thus, I think that those who murder “abortion doctors” in the name of God are really doing the will of Satan. But I think anyone who advocates for (instead of speaking against) an abortion law (if they believe it is contrary to God’s wishes) is likewise doing the will of Satan: “He who is not for me is against me”.

The reason I don’t think abortion is generally in the wishes of God is because 1) many are the result of what He would deem immoral sexual activity 2) He views children as a blessing from Him and married couples should not despise a pregnancy and 3) pregnancies can easily be avoided by inexpensive means of contraception.

The fact is, sex is but icing on the cake of what should be a wonderful and intimate relationship. But in America and other Western countries, it is sold as almost the reason for living. And so we have all of these problems now related to sex.

DoggoneGA

March 3rd, 2013
12:31 am

“he reason being that it isn’t always society that teaches us right from wrong. You could be alone in the woods with no contact with anybody and learn not to put your hand in fire. – See more at: http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2013/03/02/foreign-governments-with-u-s-writers-on-their-payroll/?cp=9#comment-1249604

Well, I would differentiate between what is physically wrong and what is morally wrong. Being alone in the woods you have no need for “morals” because there is only you. So you would learn physical wrongs from rights, but not moral ones.

But if you come in contact with others, then you better learn moral rights from wrongs pretty quick or their society will make sure you know what the punishments are for not knowing!

Look before I leap...

March 3rd, 2013
12:36 am

“That’s pretty weak chief. I don’t support murder but if I come in and find you raping my 10 year old daughter I WILL kill you or die trying.”

And I’d do the same Fred.
And I think most anyone who committed such an act would expect such an outcome if discovered.

To take it one step further, if I missed the chance to kill your ass in such a situation, I’d make it my life’s work to see that you died while I still was able to draw breath.

DoggoneGA

March 3rd, 2013
12:36 am

“I think that is the most thought provoking thing I have ever read – See more at: http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2013/03/02/foreign-governments-with-u-s-writers-on-their-payroll/?cp=9#comment-1249613

Thanks Fred. It took me a long time to come to that. For instance, I no longer think of jail terms or even execution as punishment for crimes. Especially for horrific crimes. It’s not possible for us to adequately punish someone for a horrific crime without doing something equally horrific. But we CAN protect society from such criminals by locking them up.

My concept of Christianity leads me to be against the death penalty, because I view it as depriving the criminal of the chance to truly repent his crime…but at the same time, I understand that sometimes society simply says that a person can be so horrible that the only way to be sure we are protected from them is to put them to death.

Brosephus™ - If do right, no can defense

March 3rd, 2013
12:37 am

I can say for myself that I don’t understand how someone who wants to be a Christian would ever advocate for things that God would disapprove of.

So, you don’t think God would want us to have the ability to think and reason for ourselves? He’s given us the things that he approves and disapproves of, but it is up to us to determine our path to righteousness. If things were pre-ordained, we wouldn’t have to deal with any negative or bad things as they would all be right and good.

I can see your points, and I have no problem with them, as they are your views. My whole reason for taking this road in the debate was to show that not everybody who’s pro-choice is pro-abortion. People get the two confused when they are not one and the same.

My belief on religion is that it’s a personal relationship between the believer and God. Nothing I can say, think, or believe will have an impact on a person’s beliefs. I can give information and/or direction, but if the person doesn’t believe as I do, I can’t make them do so. That’s why I think God gave us the ability to think and reason for ourselves.

Gotta run for the night, but I’ll say that you’re much easier to talk with when you’re not spoiling for a fight.

Brosephus™ - If do right, no can defense

March 3rd, 2013
12:39 am

Doggone

Gotcha loud and clear!!! I’m gonna think long and deep on that one. Like Fred, I think you’ve hit on something that I haven’t contemplated that deeply.

bman.

March 3rd, 2013
12:41 am

I’m 126.5% for the death penalty.

DoggoneGA

March 3rd, 2013
12:41 am

Thanks Bro! And I’m out too, finally getting sleepy.

Towncrier

March 3rd, 2013
12:44 am

“Yes to all. If he didn’t, he wouldn’t give us the free will to have the option to engage in such things or not.”

I will agree that He approves of us having free will but not that we use it for evil. So I don’t think He “approves” of the things I asked you about, but that He allows us to do them if we wish.

“If nobody ever sinned, there would be no need to repent for anything, and one has to repent of their sins and accept God in order to be saved.”

He doesn’t want us to sin at all. But, because of our sinful natures, we do. But once we are saved, we should be striving the rest of our lives not to sin. Grace is not a license for sin. I generally strive to not sin except in coming here. My intentions are good – to persuade people to repent but my methods are not at all. In fact, I am simply unable to refrain from sinning by impugning people’s intelligence or their character when I come here. This place is a mud wrestling pit. So in a little while I think I will need to give up on political blogging altogether (”If your eye causes you to sin…”).

“Does he give us the knowledge to know right from wrong? Yes he does. Not using that knowledge, however, does not automatically doom a person to eternal damnation as they can repent of their sins. If they are sincere in their asking for forgiveness, then forgiveness is given.”

The great thing is that if one is alive, one can repent. But repentance is not asking for forgiveness (though that winds up being part of it), but in changing one’s mind (that is what the word means in Greek) and, as a result, changing one’s behavior. It is not being sorry (though it can involve that and often does). It is being like Scrooge in A Christmas Carol. He saw the light, changed his mind about things and became a wonderful person.

St Simons - he-ne-ha

March 3rd, 2013
12:50 am

These highly principled cons should overturn Roe v Wade,

so my 3 yr old can ask me in 5 yrs “Daddy what was a Republican?”

Look before I leap...

March 3rd, 2013
12:53 am

@TC 12:30

You make reasoned arguments.
And in general I agree with much of what you say – but…

Much of that is predicated on how you ( and I and ..well…everyone else) perceives God and His will.
My relationship with God is (for reasons I won’t go into right now) very complicated.

There is an inherent paradox between the concept of free-will and the concept of destiny.

Towncrier

March 3rd, 2013
12:58 am

“So, you don’t think God would want us to have the ability to think and reason for ourselves? He’s given us the things that he approves and disapproves of, but it is up to us to determine our path to righteousness. If things were pre-ordained, we wouldn’t have to deal with any negative or bad things as they would all be right and good.”

He does want us to reason for ourselves. But I think the difference between you (as well as a lot of “religious” people here) and me is that I take the Bible very seriously. Probably unlike many here, I think it is inerrant and inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Bible clearly condemns homosexuality. I therefore cannot advocate for gay marriage or gay rights generally. I may not be able to stop laws granting gay rights being passed, but at least I spoke out against them. The same with abortion, pornography, adultery and so on. It would be morally wrong for me to advocate for such laws permitting these things, in my view. There is not much else I can do apart from voting and contacting those in Congress. So I try to persuade others to consider things differently. But here people are pretty hardened in their views.

Towncrier

March 3rd, 2013
1:03 am

Dang! It’s late. I gots to git. Goodnight all.

Look before I leap...

March 3rd, 2013
1:12 am

“and me is that I take the Bible very seriously”

And that may be part of the problem.
First – try reading the Bible in Latin – which I have done.
Then think that much of it existed in Greek, Assyrian, Aramaic, Ancient Hebrew and a whole host of other languages prior to that, then it was translated into Old English and now in many forms, Modern English.

THAT is the Bible you know. Through the years and the translations and the influence of society at any given point, it has been edited and corrupted. It is NOT as you say inerrant.

G Mare

March 3rd, 2013
1:44 am

Yo, Fred, dial up? That is SO last century….

Orange13

March 3rd, 2013
6:37 am

Well, this is going to be three times I lose money since this guy has been in office. Thanks Obama!

Fred ™

March 3rd, 2013
7:11 am

Well, this is going to be three times I lose money since this guy has been in office. Thanks Obama!

You need to take responsibility for your own actions. But since I know you Republicans need to have someone else do everything for you I’ll help you out.

http://www.ncpgambling.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=1

Orange13

March 3rd, 2013
7:24 am

“You need to take responsibility for your own actions”

Pretty lame retort Fred. Political party doesn’t come in to play on this subject. I feel confident there are many people who vote the Democratic ticket that feel the same way I do. If money was being taken out of welfare checks there would be an uproar like this country has never heard before.

Orange13

March 3rd, 2013
7:28 am

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

When this reverses itself, then and only then will I think Obama is sticking it to the taxpayer with good reason.

They call me MISTER JamVet.

March 3rd, 2013
7:44 am

Dread Scott?

Hysterical.

For the worst in today’s Segregation Party that landmark legislation that overturned separate but equal probably is dreaded!

After all, which organization has a 2% black membership, is comprised of men who are highly xenophobic, negrophobic, homophobic, misogynistic and intolerant of other faiths and cultures? Which organization is essentially a whites only, Christians only gang whose great strength in numbers and power lies in the Deep South?

The comparisons are uncanny as to which other infamous organization that sounds like, huh?

The stark and ugly reality is that this gang is not THAT far removed from that other one. And it shows up in their words and policies.

Things that make you go hmmmmm on a Sunday morning….

They call me MISTER JamVet.

March 3rd, 2013
7:56 am

Excuse me, in my last, I conflated Dred Scott with Topeka v. Board of Education. (And similarities to bloggers who know what they are writing about is purely coincidental!)

Don Abernethy

March 3rd, 2013
7:57 am

American writers are probably the best at taking a lie and twisting it into sounding like the truth.

Corbin Sharpe. I think, therefore I am...I think

March 3rd, 2013
8:17 am

Good, good Sunday morning to all y’all

I see the night crew ran the gambit from religion through abortion. Good subjects both. I also saw where a blogger said it was the gun nuts who were so anti abortion, or something like that. I’ve often wondered about that particular mind set too.

One blogger asked about a minor girl getting pregnant and if her father could force an abortion. Texas said no on that one I think was the conclusion, but this brings up a personal story.

I’ve said this before here and some will remember, but bear with me. When my daughter was a Senior in high school, she got pregnant. Long story short, I said no to an abortion. Being pro choice, I bet you wondered why I would take such a stand. The truth is, there is an old Chinese Proverb, that basically says if you save a life, you are responsible for that life the rest of its life. I figured that I would always be around to help raise the child, so I accepted that responsibility. Time and tides, as they say, passed on and I lost contact with my daughter and her son and therefore I forfeited my responsibility. The child is in jail now for raping two, an possibility more, minor children. I feel absolutely responsible for the pain those children suffered because, 1. I didn’t allow there wishes of all concerned and let the abortion happen, and 2. neglected my duty to the child in question. I never should have let my daughter leave my sphere of influence without keeping the boy with me.

I explain all of this because, while most of you anti abortion types want to “save the child”, you don’t want the responsibility that goes with it. You do not supply any aid and comfort to the mother and child, produce no programs to educate it, or to keep it healthy and provide a loving stable home life for it. You just see that it is born and send it on its way. No responsibility….and if you ever noticed, you are dismayed when that child ends up being a felon. It’s your highly emotional, without thought, knee jerk reaction to the word abortion and all it means that drive you. That is all.

I believe in Karma too, and you “Pro Lifer’s” have a lot to make up for. If you are really pro life then you are against everything related to death. Wars, executions, and death by any other means than natural. You should be for stem cell research and all of the other life saving and prolonging programs out there, but as far as the kids are concerned, you should be demanding the State and Federal Government to provide assistance for that unaborted child so that it can take its place in society as a boon and not a burden. But you do not. I wonder why, I really do.

Liberal Pariah

March 3rd, 2013
8:30 am

Corbin, what about the responsibility involved in not getting pregnant with a child that you don’t want? You stated the problem was not anti-abortion types but how the people around the child handled the situation. Can’t blame that on us.

They call me MISTER JamVet.

March 3rd, 2013
8:30 am

Corbin, god bless you. Your sharing that pain makes us all stronger.

Keith, Charlie, Bill and two Micks…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lNP-x94-SE&feature=player_embedded

GT

March 3rd, 2013
8:31 am

Seems to me that both parties want these cuts and are looking for political coverage. O as usual is cleverer, he has no reelection, and the guys in Congress will take most of the heat.

I think the state of Georgia is ripe for more moderate leadership. Between this and the Medicare that Deal denied the state, we have got something to put our teeth into. Of course the right can say you are suffering for a cause, the private sector has to suffer to fix this country, but that is not a good staging area. The public does not like to suffer, black or white. And if they do the goal for suffering better be obtainable which in this state is very questionable.

Welcome to the Occupation

March 3rd, 2013
8:36 am

GT : “Seems to me that both parties want these cuts and are looking for political coverage”

And you would be correct! Points to you, GT, for the correct answer.