Georgia’s tuition-tax credit law weakest in nation
Eleven states have adopted tax-credit programs that encourage donations to private-school scholarship programs, according to the National Conference of State Legislators.
None of those programs is like Georgia’s program.
Most states at least make an effort to ensure that tax-subsidized scholarships are limited to lower-income students who might otherwise be stuck in an underperforming public school. That’s the whole philosophy behind the program nationwide. States do not want the program to become a backdoor means of subsidizing private school tuition for those who can already afford it.
But Georgia law, by design, contains no such safeguard. It is against the law for the state to even ask how many of the scholarships are being awarded to lower-income students.
Most states also attempt to monitor the performance of private schools receiving that taxpayer subsidy. And they should. Under the tax-credit system, every dollar donated to a private-school scholarship fund is a dollar not paid to the state treasury, meaning that state government takes a serious hit on such programs. (In Georgia, it’s $51 million a year.) If the state is going to subsidize private-school tuition in that amount, it has an obligation to the taxpayer and to the student to ensure that the education meets minimal standards.
But Georgia law, again by design, contains no such safeguard.
In Arizona, for example, the corporate tuition tax credit is limited to low-income students. Private schools that accept the money must administer a standardized test and release those results to the public. In Florida — often cited as a model for such programs — scholarships are limited to students who qualify for reduced or free lunches, and schools that accept 30 or more such scholarship students must release results of a national standardized test to the public.
Pennsylvania’s tuition tax-credit program is means-tested. Indiana’s program is means-tested and requires standardized testing. The same is true in Virginia. In Iowa, only lower-income students are eligible for the taxpayer-subsidized scholarship, and schools must be certified by the state Department of Education, which requires standardized testing as an indicator of quality.
Louisiana imposes an income limit and requires means-testing and standardized testing. New Hampshire requires means-testing. As does Rhode Island. And Oklahoma limits recipients to students attending failing public schools.
State after state — most of them conservative — either tries to target the aid to those in need or to make the schools accountable for their product. Many do both.
Georgia does neither.
Georgia is different in another way as well. In most states, students eligible for a private-school scholarship had to be attending a public school when first applying. Again, the intent was to give students in public school an option, not to create a tax subsidy for those already in private schools.
Yet when Georgia’s law was drafted, it required only that students be enrolled in a public school, not attend a public school. The distinction might seem subtle, but it was deception by design. The slight word change meant that private school students could enroll in a public school, with no intention of ever attending, and thus become eligible for scholarship money. And that’s just what they were encouraged to do. As one of the bill’s sponsors, state Rep. David Casas of Lilburn, was caught telling a group of parents:
“Some people felt a little bit weird about that; felt it was a little dishonest that they would take their child, enroll them in a public school and not have them actually attend, but all of a sudden they actually qualify for a scholarship. I’m telling you, we deliberately put the wording in there for that.”
This year, Casas is joining state Rep. Earl Ehrhart of Powder Springs in an effort to greatly expand the scholarship programs. The current tax-credit limit of $2,500 for a married couple would disappear. Instead, you could eliminate up to 75 percent of your state tax bill through donations to a private school scholarship. The annual total of such tax credits would increase to $80 million, a $29 million hit to an already inadequate state budget.
But their bill makes no effort to tighten how the scholarships are used.
Again, by design.
– Jay Bookman
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469 comments Add your comment
Anton Chigurh
February 6th, 2013
9:39 am
Kyle says you are wrong, that the money does go to low-income deserving students. I tend to believe you though.
Jefferson
February 6th, 2013
9:39 am
Nothing wrong with giving money to whoever you want, the state can’t afford to give the tax credits.
Brosephus™
February 6th, 2013
9:40 am
If you read bill 1133, it specifically states that a student cannot participate in this program if their family income, total, is more than 85K/yr.
As was stated earlier, Georgia GOAL Scholarship Program is the most transparent of the scholarship groups. Per their website…
At the time a private school elects to participate in the GOAL Scholarship Program, GOAL provides school officials with a set of voluntary guidelines that school officials may consider in formulating their scholarship recommendations. It is up to school officials to decide whether and in what cases to comply with the voluntary guidelines. Under the guidelines, in order for a child to receive a GOAL Scholarship, total household income of the applicant family must not exceed $88,000. Under the guidelines, the maximum scholarship that may be awarded is an amount equal to 85 percent of the private school’s lowest published rate of tuition for the recipient’s grade or $9,046, whichever is less. In order to validate the family’s adjusted gross income, parents will be required by the school to provide copies of the first two pages of their most recently filed federal income tax return. An overwhelming majority of GOAL participating schools are using these voluntary guidelines.
http://www.goalscholarship.org/for_parents/
The legislation does not in and of itself set a limit. GOAL has voluntary guidelines that limit family income to $88k, which would violate the legislation based on your assertion.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 6th, 2013
9:43 am
SfD — “A programming note: I was red-carded recently for referring to a fellow poster as the shortened form of “Richard.”
Yes, the term “Richard” seems to meet with Jay’s approval as an acceptable ‘term of endearment’ on his blog. Glad I could help.
Jay
February 6th, 2013
9:43 am
Uncle Sam, as originally passed into law by the Democrats, the HOPE program was means-tested and limited to lower and middle-income households. It morphed into its current form with support from both Ds and Rs. Trying to change it back now — as Senate Dems have proposed — would touch off a major rebellion, particularly among Rs.
But I take it from your post that you too would support taking HOPE back to its original structure?
Darwin
February 6th, 2013
9:43 am
As I’ve stated here before. Republicans want to transfer all forms of government into private hands. That allows them to receive campaign contributions that would not be there otherwise if the program remained with government workers. Teachers who vote Republican will some day find themselves at the mercy of private enterprise. Heck, maybe that’s a good thing.
Georgia on my mind...
February 6th, 2013
9:44 am
Governor Deal has allowed several “questionable” amendments/policies to take place on his watch:
1. Changed the way that the Hope Scholarships are distributed.
2. Allowed several money generating areas to form their own cities/governments.
3. Placed a trick amendment on the ballot allowing a state appointed board to give final approval of Charter Schools. The local school systems no longer have the final say.
4. Changed several district areas to form a majority rule when it comes to elections.
5. Continues to charge a toll fee on roads that have already been paid for.
6. Would like for a certain percentage of the hotel/motel tax revenues to be used to help finance a stadium for the Falcons.
Feel free to continue with this list folks…we are being duped…..
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
9:44 am
send UPPER MIDDLE CLASS WHITE KIDS TO COLLEGE
There used to be income limits to qualify for the HOPE scholarships. After about two years the 100K income limit was listed. For the record.
And for what it’s worth, I believe that it was wrong to abolish the limit, although it should’ve been indexed to some wage growth standard from the get-go.
GT
February 6th, 2013
9:44 am
td that is a good one, totally agree, very well written.
Grasshopper
February 6th, 2013
9:46 am
This is not so different than the Lottery which extracts money from low-income folk and uses it to send wealthy suburban kids to UGA.
And everyone just loves the Lottery and wants more gambling – the panacea to all our ills, they say.
Brosephus™
February 6th, 2013
9:48 am
I nominate td for post of the day. I know it’s still early, but if someone tops that one, good on ‘em, as the Aussies say.
I second that nomination. I couldn’t have stated it much better myself.
Jay
I didn’t remember any income limit in the legislation from the beginning. I think, err… hope, he’s simply confusing what some of the programs have called limits vs what the actual legislation says. Anybody that would be adamant about what legislation actually says and be completely wrong has to be someone who has no idea of how Google or Yahoo works.
Grasshopper
February 6th, 2013
9:48 am
Looks like I am late jumping on Uncle Sam’s bus – i need to not get distracted while typing.
UNCLE SAMANTHA
February 6th, 2013
9:51 am
JAY
its ridiculous that any money is given to go to college…………. GA RANKS LOW YEAR AFTER YEAR compared to every state ………
imo
ALL LOTTERY MONEY SHOULD BE SPENT ON K-5……….. so that we endsure that every student can read write and do math…….. the building blocks of all learning……….
college and computers is a joke………. its welfare for computer companies and upper middle class kids……….
YET WE HAVE A WHOLE POPULATION THAT DROPS OUT OR “GRADUATES” BUT CANNOT READ/WRITE AND DO BASIC MATH…
kayaker 71
February 6th, 2013
9:52 am
Let’s look at the numbers. According to the Southern Education Foundation, some minority run liberal think tank, the average household receiving scholarship aid from this program was 44,633/yr. 72% of all GOAL scholarships went to households receiving an AGI of 60,000. Less than 1% of recipients had a AGI of more than 100K. And this organization was still not happy.
Results of a Statewide Survey (Georgia)
February 6th, 2013
9:52 am
Who plays the lottery and who benefits?
http://www.cviog.uga.edu/free-downloads/51.pdf
barking frog
February 6th, 2013
9:53 am
Hard to cipher this out.
A rich kid leaves public school
and goes to private school. Per capita funding for the
rich kid goes away .
The public school no longer educates the rich kid thus
reducing expenditures by the public school.
Now the state gives a tax credit to the parents of
the rich kid for reducing expenditures in public schools
that does not affect public school funding. Unfair
taxation ? Is that the issue ?
Grasshopper
February 6th, 2013
9:54 am
Every dollar spent on Lottery is a dollar NOT spent on a tangible good or service and given to the state to mis-spend instead.
Brosephus™
February 6th, 2013
9:54 am
ALL LOTTERY MONEY SHOULD BE SPENT ON K-5
Hell, I vote for all lottery money to be spent on demolishing your “caps lock” key. That’s just me though.
JohnnyReb
February 6th, 2013
9:54 am
Libs need to think of this program as an off-set.
Parents with kids in private school still pay property taxes that fund public school – the school gets the money but does not have the child to teach, thus expense goes down.
The idea that only the well-healed send their kids to private school is ridiculous. Many, many middle income families sacrifice and get help from parents to send their kids to public school. Why should they pay property taxes for a service they don’t use? Until the funding of public school is is fixed, this diversion of income tax is acceptable.
Thomas Heyward Jr
February 6th, 2013
9:56 am
And furthermore………………..if Government schools were so Great in acheiving National greatness, shouldn’t it be self-evident?………………and if it is self-evident,
Why then are people Forced to pay for them.
.
Nay.
.
The future is bright but not because of Government schools.
20 years from now………………decent folk will curse the idea of coerced payments to a dysfunctional system…….not unlike…………..ancient Easter Islanders cursed their Government Timber monopoly.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 6th, 2013
9:56 am
“Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed rounds” ………….. Saturdays excepted !
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 6th, 2013
9:56 am
“A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”
Joe Hussein Mama
February 6th, 2013
9:56 am
U. Samantha — “imo
ALL LOTTERY MONEY SHOULD BE SPENT ON K-5……….. so that we endsure that every student can read write and do math…….. the building blocks of all learning……….”
I hate to say it, but I kinda have to agree with this. Making lottery proceeds available for college tuition is great, but IMO it’d be a heck of a lot better if that money went to getting our kids sharp in the *basics* so that more of them graduated from high school in the first place.
Free college tuition isn’t going to help a poor kid who gets ’socially promoted’ in school and who winds up all graduated n’ stuff but can’t read a lick or do basic math.
williebkind
February 6th, 2013
9:58 am
“Why pay for an education when they can get what they need for free on FOX.”
Is this what education teaches you or teaches you how to process a thought. You are a numpty!
Joe Hussein Mama
February 6th, 2013
9:58 am
J. Reb — “Many, many middle income families sacrifice and get help from parents to send their kids to public school. Why should they pay property taxes for a service they don’t use?”
I don’t have any kids, so I don’t have any kids in public school. So by your logic, I shouldn’t have to pay taxes to support public schools, right?
alex
February 6th, 2013
9:58 am
Jay show me the data on how well school performance tracks parent income. How is performance measures, what level of school, Less noise , please..
Barking frog: plus the family not using the public school still pays taxes that supports the public school…Seems to me that this can be argues as more of a moral issue than an economic: how far do the more fortunate subsidizxe the education of the less fortunate….
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
10:00 am
td that is a good one, totally agree, very well written.
Me three. Whoops, now, make that me four.
Jay
February 6th, 2013
10:00 am
“A rich kid leaves public school
and goes to private school. Per capita funding for the
rich kid goes away .
The public school no longer educates the rich kid thus
reducing expenditures by the public school.”
A couple of problems with that scenario, Frog.
– Unlike most states, Georgia wrote its law in such a way that many who take advantage of the program never attended public schools and never intended to attend public schools. In other words, in many cases there is no transfer from public school to private, and thus no saving to public schools.
– When a student does transfer from public to private, there is a small savings for the public district. But it is a SMALL savings. The fixed costs of building schools, buying and running buses, etc. doesn’t change. If you’ve initially got 350 kids in your elementary school, and then you’ve got 340 because 10 transferred to a private school, the cost of running that school, hiring the teachers, janitors, etc., really has not changed much at all.
The savings do NOT offset the cost of the tax credit, particularly if the $2,500 limit per couple is abolished.
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
February 6th, 2013
10:03 am
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
9:44 am
I think in addition to the HOPE objective to provide a leg up, it also serves a purpose in keeping the brightest kids in state. While it has made admission more exclusionary to kids who don’t test well or are C students, seems to me the overall impact is favorable.
DannyX
February 6th, 2013
10:03 am
“richest country?
Which public school did you go to.?”
Thomas Heyward, yes richest country in the world, by far.
GDP rank 2011
1 US- $15 trillion
2 China- $7 trillion
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
February 6th, 2013
10:06 am
JohnnyReb
February 6th, 2013
9:54 am
The simple reason why property taxes are required by all is without school funding in a particular district, your property values would suffer….seems logical…
Aquagirl
February 6th, 2013
10:06 am
Now the state gives a tax credit to the parents of the rich kid for reducing expenditures in public schools
Barking, you’d have a point if everyone who didn’t “burden” the system with a kid got this tax credit. Can I apply if I’m not “burdening” the system right now?
We don’t tax for schools on the assumption everyone will take their turn, so to speak, even though it usually works out that way. We tax because an educated populace benefits everyone, period.
saywhat?
February 6th, 2013
10:07 am
Jay
February 6th, 2013
9:23 am
I nominate td for post of the day. I know it’s still early, but if someone tops that one, good on ‘em, as the Aussies say.
_________________________________________________________________
I want to know who kidnapped the real td and what they have done to him.
n
February 6th, 2013
10:07 am
Lies and deceit have become the currency of the realm.
These men are shameless knaves who consider the public idiots or sheep to be manipulated at will.
Hubris or the FBI will catch up to them some day.
Georgia has become a banana republic where the peasants are conned and coerced into subsidizing the ruling class.
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
10:08 am
seems to me the overall impact is favorable.
The HOPE scholarship, for all its flaws, is probably the single best thing Georgia has done in its entire history, perhaps short only of agreeing to join the US in the first place. (I’m open to nominees for Even Gooder Stuff GA has done at some point in its history, just can’t think of any.)
When I speak with out-of-staters and even out-of-countryers, I point with pride to it.
williebkind
February 6th, 2013
10:08 am
Why send kids to college when you can give employers the money to hire and train the person for a life long career. After all it should not take that much money for CNN/AJC to teach liberals to become liberal journalists. The tricky part would be teaching them to shape the news to their agenda instead of reporting the news and letting the public decide for themselves. Why waste money on a general degree. It works for the military.
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
10:09 am
Thomas Heyward, yes richest country in the world, by far.
Richest, most powerful nation ever in this planet’s history, yep.
In the middle
February 6th, 2013
10:10 am
Sending your child to a private school does not guarantee success and sending your child to a public school, regardless of the neighborhood, does not guarantee failure. Although it has become accepted that low performing students are complete victims and that the fault is either the school or the household income, I would suggest a differant view. Students succeed because they are taught to succeed at home and fail because they are taught to fail at home.
It has become far too easy to blame all of societies woes on rich people that dont give “us” more of their money. It has also become a debilitating crutch to far too many people. If you take a closer look at why individuals succeed it has more to do with their own drive and determination. Rich kids have this hammered into their heads from a young age, poor kids are taught to be victims. That being said, if a child from a low income area is taught by the parents to work hard and persist, they too will succeed. FYI, the measure of success is not just dollars, being a good member of your community and taking care of your family are also good measuring sticks.
Quit blaming rich people.
independent thinker
February 6th, 2013
10:12 am
Okay now that Jay agrees that armed guards in schools are a good thing – how about the clowns under the gold dome do what the constitution says and require gun owners as part of that “well regulated militia necessary for the security of a free state serve a few weeks doing guard duty at a school in exchange for the right to own “arms” or they pay for a substitute guard. Or were the guys with wigs who wrote the constitution just mumbling nonsense when they wrote the second amendment? Maybe give them a tax credit too (if they join the NRA).
Thomas Heyward Jr
February 6th, 2013
10:13 am
DannyX
February 6th, 2013
10:03 am
“richest country?
Which public school did you go to.?”
Thomas Heyward, yes richest country in the world, by far.
GDP rank 2011
1 US- $15 trillion
2 China- $7 trillion
———————————————————————-
.
What was that national debt again?
.
lol
Jay
February 6th, 2013
10:14 am
“Jay show me the data on how well school performance tracks parent income. How is performance measures, what level of school, Less noise , please…”
alex, the data are easily available for those who care to look. For example, students with a household income of less than $20,000 average 434 on the reading section of the SAT; those with income above $200K average 563. And the association between income and performance is consistent on income groups between those two extremes.
I also note your assertion that this is “more of a moral issue than an economic: how far do the more fortunate subsidize the education of the less fortunate….” Are you suggesting that it is somehow immoral to require the fortunate to subsidize in that fashion?
If we don’t offer a good education to the poor, the whole concept of America as a merit-based nation in which it doesn’t matter to whom you were born disappears. (That notion is more myth than reality in the first place, but it does have SOME validity).
Doggone/GA
February 6th, 2013
10:15 am
“Why send kids to college when you can give employers the money to hire and train the person for a life long career”
Because, increasingly, employers are abandoning OJT and depending on schools and colleges to prepare their students for the work place environment.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 6th, 2013
10:15 am
in the middle — “Rich kids have this hammered into their heads from a young age, poor kids are taught to be victims.”
I know both rich and poor people who would tell you that they never received any lessons like the ones you’ve asserted they do.
“That being said, if a child from a low income area is taught by the parents to work hard and persist, they too will succeed.”
There’s no guarantee of that. Hard work and persistence do not *guarantee* wealth and success in our society.
“Quit blaming rich people.”
Quit blaming *poor* people.
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
10:18 am
What was that national debt again?
We are not going broke.
http://www.alternet.org/economy/8-facts-prove-our-govt-not-going-broke
AmericaShrugged
February 6th, 2013
10:19 am
Let’s see you can work for things you want like a home and an education otr you can live in Bookman’s dream world where I work and the shallow end of the gene pool gets an education, cell phone, heltlh care, food stamps, housing, etc. Why work?
alittlecommonsense
February 6th, 2013
10:19 am
“When a student does transfer from public to private, there is a small savings for the public district. But it is a SMALL savings. The fixed costs of building schools, buying and running buses, etc. doesn’t change. If you’ve initially got 350 kids in your elementary school, and then you’ve got 340 because 10 transferred to a private school, the cost of running that school, hiring the teachers, janitors, etc., really has not changed much at all.”
True, but you are looking at one very small school. Multiply that over an entire school district, and the district has to build less buildings, hire less teachers, janitors, etc. So the savings are there system-wide.
“In other words, in many cases there is no transfer from public school to private, and thus no saving to public schools.”
Of course there is a savings. If the money isn’t being spent for public education, it doesn’t matter if it starts “not being spent” during Kindergarten, or during 11th grade. In fact if a parent pays for their child’s education for 12 years instead of sending the child to public school, there is a huge savings for the public schools. To say there is no savings is some sort of liberal math – since the spending never started, there isn’t any saving?
DannyX
February 6th, 2013
10:19 am
“What was that national debt again?”
Thomas Heyward, you were proven to be wrong, not just wrong, ridiculously so. Then you deflect with more nonsense, way to go! I hope your parents didn’t waste a lot of money on your private education! They should see about a refund.
Lance in Carrollton
February 6th, 2013
10:21 am
Jay asserts that in terms of self-determination “That notion is more myth than reality in the first place, but it does have SOME validity.” Where is this myth? Why social guards have been put into place where you cannot move from lower-class to upper-class. I can understand if a childs needs at home has not been met they may not see the need for education. However, example after example can be provided of people, that have gone from poverty to affluence through self-determination.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 6th, 2013
10:22 am
A. Shrugged — ” I work and the shallow end of the gene pool gets”
You know, if you hate it here so much, there aren’t any bars *keeping* you here.
barking frog
February 6th, 2013
10:24 am
Jay, Aquagirl
still not much clarification and what part of my scenario was wrong ?
a child who never attended public schools still keeps the school
from the cost of educating it as it is required to be educated by law.
Aquagirl it seems that you have issue with the taxation thingie and
want the credit. I think you have a shot with a related child if you
care to try.
td
February 6th, 2013
10:24 am
saywhat?
February 6th, 2013
10:07 am
Jay
February 6th, 2013
9:23 am
I nominate td for post of the day. I know it’s still early, but if someone tops that one, good on ‘em, as the Aussies say.
_________________________________________________________________
I want to know who kidnapped the real td and what they have done to him.
No my friend this is my views and should be the views of anyone that is a true conservative/libertarian. Conservatives say they believe that everyone should be responsible for themselves and should not be dependent on the government for their day to day subsistence. Well that will NEVER happen without education. Study after study cites that if a person does not get at least a HS diploma then their is a very high risk that they will be doomed to a lifetime of poverty. The higher the education level the less risk to being poor. Study after study gives evidence that the number one indicator to having a successful educational experience is the involvement of the parent.
If the middle class (both white and black) are working up schemes to remove their children to schools of only like minded parents then it is only going to leave kids whose parents do not care in the public school system. These middle class parents will then not care about reforming the public schools, will not care about what the children in these schools learn and this action will doom them to not receiving the education needed to allow them to be responsible for their own lives in the future.
In other words, education breaks the cycle of poverty and turns non productive citizens into productive citizens and the result will be less government, less taxes and more freedom.
In the middle
February 6th, 2013
10:25 am
Joe,
First, I did not say wealth was the only measure of success. There are millions of successful americans that are not wealthy. Second, being taught to become successful is differant that being taught to become rich. Third, I did not blame income, I blamed behavior. Fourth, I taught my kids to become succesful every day of their lives growing up, do your homework, keep your word, pick up after yourself, be considerate to others, make your own way in life. It worked..nuff said
Jay
February 6th, 2013
10:25 am
“That being said, if a child from a low income area is taught by the parents to work hard and persist, they too will succeed. FYI, the measure of success is not just dollars, being a good member of your community and taking care of your family are also good measuring sticks.”
Ahhh, if only we lived in a world in which that were true.
A child growing up poor, with parents who stress the value of an education and hard work, certainly has a better chance than a poor child who does not have such parents, or any parents at all. But that poor child with strong parenting still faces many, many more obstacles to success than do kids from more affluent backgrounds.
And the difficult question, of course, is what to do with those kids without strong parents. We can wash our hands of them, concluding that if their parents don’t care, why should we? But those kids didn’t choose their parents or their plight, and simply leaving them to their fate doesn’t say much for us as a society and ensures that our prisons stay very full.
As a moral and practical matter, government has little choice but to attempt to compensate, in its awkward, sometimes inefficient way, for the lack of parental guidance and authority in those kids’ lives. And we do so knowing that we will never solve the problem, that at best we’re giving a self-motivated kid in tough circumstances a 50 percent chance of succeeding instead of a 15 percent chance of succeeding.
That’s what offends me most about this scholarship program. It was sold to the public and to legislators as an effort to help those most in need, when in reality its sponsors knew full well that it would be used for something else entirely. The cynicism and hypocrisy of that flat-out angers me, I’ll confess.
UNCLE SAMANTHA
February 6th, 2013
10:25 am
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
10:08 am
seems to me the overall impact is favorable.
The HOPE scholarship, for all its flaws, is probably the single best thing Georgia has done in its entire history, perhaps short only of agreeing to join the US in the first place. (I’m open to nominees for Even Gooder Stuff GA has done at some point in its history, just can’t think of any.)
When I speak with out-of-staters and even out-of-countryers, I point with pride to it.
=====================================================================
do you point with pride how our K-12 ranks between 45-50 each year????
thank god for DC or we could be 51st!
makes no sense to promote college when our K-12 kids cant read or write
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
10:26 am
If the middle class (both white and black) are working up schemes to remove their children to schools of only like minded parents then it is only going to leave kids whose parents do not care in the public school system. These middle class parents will then not care about reforming the public schools, will not care about what the children in these schools learn and this action will doom them to not receiving the education needed to allow them to be responsible for their own lives in the future.
This, a thousand times, this.
barking frog
February 6th, 2013
10:31 am
sfd 10:26
so poor people do not care whether their kids get an education ?
Thomas Heyward Jr
February 6th, 2013
10:31 am
Meanwhile…………..let us ignore the money spent on 12 course Daily meals ….courtesy of crony big-agri………..courtesy of the FedBugs………………………..
.
One has Breakfast in the classroom.
breakfast on the go.
and breakfast.
wtf?
I thought it was about education.
My bust.
Somewhere……………….somehow………………..some rich child might escape the dysfunction———–
Oh the humanity!
.
.
The real curriculum/menu From the APS——————–
.
Breakfast in the Classroom – February 2013.pdf
Grab and Go Breakfast – February 2013.pdf
Elementary Breakfast – Feburary 2013.pdf
Elementary Lunch – February 2013.pdf
Elementary Salad Bowl – February 2013.pdf
Secondary Breakfast – February 2013.pdf
Secondary Salad Bowl – February 2013.pdf
Middle School Lunch – February 2013.pdf
High School Lunch – February 2013.pdf
Forrest Hills Academy – February 2013.pdf
West End Academy – February 2013.pdf
Crim Open Campus – February 2013.pdf
Afterschool Snack – Februray
.
lol
Jay
February 6th, 2013
10:31 am
Lance, repeated long-term studies have demonstrated that economic mobility — the ability to move up out of the economic class in which you are born — has declined in the United States in the last 30 to 40 years and is now below that of many European countries. I understand that the myth says otherwise, but when the myth and the data collide, which are you going to believe?
Google “economic mobility” and “United States” and you’ll find the research I mention.
St Simons- island off coast of New Somalia
February 6th, 2013
10:32 am
well, it all depends on how you look at it, good host…
in keeping Georgia backward & ignunt, and as an attempt to extend
the short term survival of the Georgia Republicans,
its the BEST in the nation, babeeee!
alex
February 6th, 2013
10:32 am
Jay, I in no way implied that it is not morally right to subsidize, I merely pointed it out and you appear to agree. As for your other statement, 1 point on a curve from where is hardly support and since you started the discussion, it is your obligation to look it up and provide adequate support, good data some signal it is OBVIOUS you did not accept Silvers teachings, if you had you would not support your thoughts so crudely, for an opinion piece it is poorly supported, if supported by anything at all, do better.
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
10:33 am
makes no sense to promote college when our K-12 kids cant read or write
You might want to enroll in one of those “Learn to walk and chew gum” adult education classes.
barking frog
February 6th, 2013
10:34 am
Do the poor kids need the middle class kids in the same school
so they can get better educated by association ?
Jerome Horwitz
February 6th, 2013
10:34 am
td – Many times your postings irritate or infuriate me. However, I have to say that your thoughts this AM are spot on. Thank You sir/madam.
Jay
February 6th, 2013
10:35 am
Barking, yes.
As a veteran of putting two kids through APS, the poor kids also need middle-class PARENTS in that school.
td
February 6th, 2013
10:35 am
Jay
February 6th, 2013
10:14 am
“Jay show me the data on how well school performance tracks parent income. How is performance measures, what level of school, Less noise , please…”
alex, the data are easily available for those who care to look. For example, students with a household income of less than $20,000 average 434 on the reading section of the SAT; those with income above $200K average 563. And the association between income and performance is consistent on income groups between those two extremes.
I also note your assertion that this is “more of a moral issue than an economic: how far do the more fortunate subsidize the education of the less fortunate….” Are you suggesting that it is somehow immoral to require the fortunate to subsidize in that fashion?
If we don’t offer a good education to the poor, the whole concept of America as a merit-based nation in which it doesn’t matter to whom you were born disappears. (That notion is more myth than reality in the first place, but it does have SOME validity).
Jay,
There is a more fundamental attribute to the success of the children of rich people. Rich parents get it that education is the corner stone to being successful because more then likely it is way they built their own wealth in the first place. These parents understand that you read to your children when they are young. They understand that you teach your children how to add and subtract. They understand that you look at the kids school work in the early years, help them with their homework and they go to conferences with the objective to see what the weaknesses of their child is so that they can work with the child to improve them. The biggest thing they do is set the expectations for their children like: Your number one and only priority is being smart, C’s are not acceptable and college is not an option.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 6th, 2013
10:36 am
inthemiddle — “Joe, First, I did not say wealth was the only measure of success. There are millions of successful americans that are not wealthy.”
Rejected. Your plaintive whine at the end of your post in re “Stop blaming rich people” makes it quite clear that you’re talking about wealth. If you want to talk about other measures of success, that’s fine, but you didn’t do so in your earlier post and in fact, you pointed *straight at wealth* in your previous post as a measurement of success.
“Second, being taught to become successful is differant that being taught to become rich.”
Rejected. See criticism above.
“Third, I did not blame income, I blamed behavior.”
Rejected. You CLEARLY blamed income. How clearly? This clearly: “Rich kids have this hammered into their heads from a young age, poor kids are taught to be victims.” You clearly did blame wealth and not income.
“Fourth, I taught my kids to become succesful every day of their lives growing up, do your homework, keep your word, pick up after yourself, be considerate to others, make your own way in life. It worked..nuff said”
Good for you, but what works for you and your kids may not work for other people and their kids. Some kids succeed *in spite of* their beginnings and environment. And some kids fail *despite* theirs.
Jay
February 6th, 2013
10:36 am
td, absolutely true.
DannyX
February 6th, 2013
10:36 am
“Do the poor kids need the middle class kids in the same school
so they can get better educated by association ?”
That is the question of the day.
Brosephus™
February 6th, 2013
10:38 am
td
Other than the appearance of a broad brushed critique of the middle class, I agree with what you said @ 10:24 too. I must have been the one to set off that 8.0 earthquake in the Solomon Islands by agreeing with td twice on one thread.
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
10:38 am
so poor people do not care whether their kids get an education ?
I’m not seeing where td is saying this, although I kind of course see why one might read between his lines to get to that point.
But even if he were assuming such a thing (which would of course be wrong), he is still dead-on-target when he gets around to the responsibility of GA’s middle classes to eschew the kind of Balkanization that such sleazy tuition-tax credit law promotes.
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
10:39 am
“…I kind of COULD see why one might read…”, I meant @ 10.38.
Jay
February 6th, 2013
10:39 am
Here’s a young man who went to APS schools with my children, went off to Princeton and has now returned to try to make a difference:
http://eastatlanta.patch.com/articles/matt-westmoreland-from-aps-teacher-to-school-board-candidate
Aquagirl
February 6th, 2013
10:39 am
Aquagirl it seems that you have issue with the taxation thingie and want the credit. I think you have a shot with a related child if you care to try.
I do have an issue with the taxation “thingie,” but I do not want the credit.
I don’t know how to say this any clearer: I do not pay school taxes because I or my children used public schools. It’s taxes, not tuition.
I pay for public schools so some unrelated kid I’ve never met will get an education.
I think your confusion stems from the persistent (and apparently successful) attempts of people like Rep. Casas. You, as a taxpayer, do not personally decide how your tax money is spent. You elect representatives who decide.
A bunch of whining moochers have decided if their elected representative disagrees with them, they’re OPPRESSED, by gawd.
Those people can f#(k straight off, and please do not put me in their category.
barking frog
February 6th, 2013
10:40 am
Jay
As a veteran of putting two kids through APS, the poor kids also need middle-class PARENTS in that school.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………
I can accept that. Poor parents are not as caring as middle class parents,
easily demonstrated by their poverty status.
Thomas Heyward Jr
February 6th, 2013
10:43 am
I hearby challenge Bookman to put his mouth where his money is…(and incidentally, where he wants everyone else to put their money).
.
Eat TWO government school eggs………………and I will refrain from donating to my local private school for five years.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 6th, 2013
10:43 am
B. Frog — “Poor parents are not as caring as middle class parents, easily demonstrated by their poverty status.”
Um, what? Caring = money?
Maybe you should clarify that.
Lance in Carrollton
February 6th, 2013
10:45 am
Jay, I don’t believe the issue then is self-determination. The issue is an economic issue facing the United States. We have gone from a nation that after World War II when we were the manufacturing leader of the world to where we are more of a serviced based economy. The way to move up is still self-determination. Higher Education is the key; a person can move from one level to another, he or she will have to work harder to accomplish it. Of course social mobility will be harder in an global economy.
UNCLE SAMANTHA
February 6th, 2013
10:46 am
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
10:33 am
makes no sense to promote college when our K-12 kids cant read or write
You might want to enroll in one of those “Learn to walk and chew gum” adult education classes.
=================================================================
since when was it bad thing when you had to pay for college yourself?
when the lottery money came on board… tuition/fees/etc started increasing faster and higher than any sector in the economy
Lori
February 6th, 2013
10:46 am
My husband and I contribute to Arete, an SSO with the highest standards. They are voluntarily transperent and share the SSO’s financial records (even their audits) and academic successes of their students. This kind of transperency should be the standard, not the exception, in the tax credit program. I am a huge believer in school chioce, and we need to strengthen this important program.
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
February 6th, 2013
10:46 am
Well, I reckon this tuition tax credit thingie is how things go in this state. I’m just like most GA redneck. I’m OK with the state giving just about all the cream to the rich folks, long as they pass a law to keep Those People from putting cow dung in my cereal.
I feel like ranting today. How come the shrink-wrappers and the “protective cap” people can’t come up with something that you don’t need a chainsaw to get the stuff off? Some stuff is so wrapped in heavy plastic that even a pair of scissors won’t cut. And if you go buy a bottle of cough syrup you have to work and work and cut your finger just to get the plastic wrapping off of the cap. Then when you unscrew the cap you find out some a-hole has used crazy glue to put aluminum foil on the bottle opening. I tell you, we need the Death Penalty for the folks that like to put poison in stuff and for the people that wrap stuff to “protect” us from them.
I’m finished ranting now. Have a good day everybody.
Brosephus™
February 6th, 2013
10:47 am
Poor parents are not as caring as middle class parents,
easily demonstrated by their poverty status.
Got proof of that? How exactly does one poverty status demonstrate that they are not a caring parent? How does one’s status as middle class demonstrate they ARE a caring parent? That broad brush stroke could cause an eclipse right about now.
barking frog
February 6th, 2013
10:48 am
Aquagirl
I think your confusion stems from the persistent (and apparently successful) attempts of people like Rep. Casas. You, as a taxpayer, do not personally decide how your tax money is spent. You elect representatives who decide.
………………………………………………………………………………………………
and the taxpayer should never be allowed to direct any
of that tax money unless it is by lobbying that representative.
the voter minority should have no say either.
indigo
February 6th, 2013
10:49 am
td
Rich parents are much more likley to be smart than poor ones.
Most of the rich earned their money by being very smart and very well educated.
Smart parents are more likely to have smart children.
This, of course, is not politically correct. However, political correctness will not make it go away.
I am a product (poor kid)
February 6th, 2013
10:49 am
“Do the poor kids need the middle class kids in the same school
so they can get better educated by association ?”
That is the question of the day.
________
It worked for me…very poor…but had the ability to “learn”. All a poor kid needs is an “opportunity”.
skipper
February 6th, 2013
10:50 am
Jie Hussein Mamma,
Good point, to a degree. However, the inner-city culture is more of a problem. Yes, this is a fact. It may be more due to poverty than anything, but the reality is until the overall culture climate change, nothing good will happen. Too many kids from single-parent non-supportive families. This is not bashing single moms, just stating that (I have kin-folks who work in some of the departments that handle these areas…dfcs, for one) by and large many of these kids have come from some of the negative circumstances that are so badly stereo-typed. They grow up w/o role models, and are in trouble at an early age. My mom was a teacher over forty years. Several (more than you might think) of the kids who came in were on their second kid and were 11th grade age. Seems like a generation got lost somewhere…..so many grandmothers trying to “ride-herd”. Nobody wants to talk about it because you get accused of racism or whatever. I coached many of these kids in rec ball, and the circumstances can be pretty bad. I bought many a happy-meal out of my pocket…….its the chicken or the egg syndrome. Without education, things will be bad. Without a culture change that values discipline and education, things will be bad. And, in APS, until quality people are installed, things will be bad. As I stated previously….cuss me or whatever, but APS will still be the floundering mess ten years from now it is today, and that is too bad.
Jay
February 6th, 2013
10:50 am
“Poor parents are not as caring as middle class parents,
easily demonstrated by their poverty status.”
SOME poor parents are not as caring, just as SOME middle-class and wealthy parents are not as caring.
skipper
February 6th, 2013
10:50 am
Thats “Joe”….my bad!
RB from Gwinnett
February 6th, 2013
10:51 am
Almost forgot about this little gem. ““I hope no one uses the term ‘illegal immigrants’ here today, Our citizens are, the people in this country are not illegal, they are out of status, they are new Americans that are immigrants, and I think that we can forge a path to citizenship that will be able to pass muster.” John Conyers
WTF is “out of status”? Is that some new legal term the liberals have made up? Why in the hell are we paying a clown this dam stupid to be in control of anything? Geeez…..
Brosephus™
February 6th, 2013
10:52 am
Most of the rich earned their money by being very smart and very well educated.
Yep, that’s exactly why so many of those “rich” people try to eliminate the “death tax” or estate tax. Being very smart to be born to rich parents is a good way to become rich yourself. I think you’re risking blowing out your Achilles or stretching a hammy with that “Most” at the beginning of that statement. Just my opinion though.
barking frog
February 6th, 2013
10:54 am
JoeHusseinMama, Brosephus
Jay
As a veteran of putting two kids through APS, the poor kids also need middle-class PARENTS in that school.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………….
for what other reason than they care more than poor parents ?
Jay
February 6th, 2013
10:54 am
“Rich parents are much more likley to be smart than poor ones.”
Well, they’re much more likely to be educated. Educated does not equal smart.
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
10:56 am
since when was it bad thing when you had to pay for college yourself?
It seems utterly bizarre to complain about funding higher-education tuition for students. (By the way, you appear to be the only one here who seems to have a problem with it.)
This is what civilized nations do for their citizens. The only real question is why hasn’t this become a national program?
when the lottery money came on board… tuition/fees/etc started increasing faster and higher than any sector in the economy
I believe ye olde “correlation doe SNOT equal causation” maxim might be worth checkin’ out. Indexed under “SNOT, doe,” I believe.
I am a product (poor kid)
February 6th, 2013
10:56 am
skipper says,
However, the inner-city culture is more of a problem. Yes, this is a fact. It may be more due to poverty than anything, but the reality is until the overall culture climate change, nothing good will happen. Too many kids from single-parent non-supportive families. This is not bashing single moms, just stating that (I have kin-folks who work in some of the departments that handle these areas…dfcs, for one) by and large many of these kids have come from some of the negative circumstances that are so badly stereo-typed.
_____
What about the rural areas where the poverty level is exceedingly high in the trailer parks and “meth” is the drug of choice? We all know what goes on the inner city. Let’s look at the “whole” state.
Ivan
February 6th, 2013
10:56 am
“Educated does not equal smart”
Thanks, Jay. It’s known that many liberal minds are educated well beyond their intelligence. Glad you agree.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 6th, 2013
10:57 am
…but it was deception by design.
Isn’t deception discouraged by one of those big ten “thou shalt not” thingies?
Red staters should be aware these kind of things.
Oh, I forgot, IOKIYAR — it’s in the bible.
Brosephus™
February 6th, 2013
10:58 am
Too many kids from single-parent non-supportive families. This is not bashing single moms, just stating that (I have kin-folks who work in some of the departments that handle these areas…dfcs, for one) by and large many of these kids have come from some of the negative circumstances that are so badly stereo-typed.
There are many bad apples coming from two parent homes just as there are coming from single parent homes. I don’t buy the excuse of blaming things on the single parent.
Common Sense is Uncommon
February 6th, 2013
10:58 am
The eonomic genius of Obama will soon cause every one to be low income so the argument is with out merit. Having grown up in California at a time when there was no tuition for in state residents, I can appreciate the benefit of a low cost education. I did have to buy books, pay a student body fee which gave me free access to all atheletic events and access to the library. We also had to by a parking permit which we termed a “hunting license” due to the lack of parking spaces. We did have to have a B average in college core curriculum subjects and pass an entrance exam which included such subjects as U.S. History and Civics in addition to Math and English so most of todays aspiring freshamn probably couldn’t get in.
Jay
February 6th, 2013
11:00 am
“for what other reason than they care more than poor parents?”
Because middle-class parents have more economic resources to help make a difference. Because they have more clout with politicians and know how to make a bureaucracy work. Because they can help support a good teacher and help oust a bad one. Because they usually have more flexibility at work and can take time off during the day to volunteer than parents working for a low hourly wage.
And for a lot more reasons as well.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 6th, 2013
11:02 am
skipper — “by and large many of these kids have come from some of the negative circumstances that are so badly stereo-typed. They grow up w/o role models, and are in trouble at an early age. My mom was a teacher over forty years. Several (more than you might think) of the kids who came in were on their second kid and were 11th grade age. Seems like a generation got lost somewhere…..so many grandmothers trying to “ride-herd”. Nobody wants to talk about it because you get accused of racism or whatever. I coached many of these kids in rec ball, and the circumstances can be pretty bad. I bought many a happy-meal out of my pocket…….its the chicken or the egg syndrome. Without education, things will be bad. Without a culture change that values discipline and education, things will be bad.”
FWIW, my parents easily qualified as ‘white trash’ when they were growing up. They came up in Appalachian coal country, where the only jobs were coal mining, farming, odd jobs or moonshining. There was no public transit and without a car, there was no way your parents were going to get a ‘town job’ in a store or the like.
Nobody there really cared about education because nobody had the money to get any past high school, and nobody really saw the need for it anyway.
That said, my dad did. He worked his hind end off raising and selling crops through his youth and teenage years. My grandfather worked as a coal miner in order to save a little money, and when my dad graduated, he went to college. More than that, he earned his Doctorate in Microbiology, and he’s now been teaching at the same university for the last 45 years.
So when I hear you come down on the inner cities, I also hear you coming down on hillbillies like my own family. I agree that there’s not a lot of value placed on education in the hills or in the inner cities, but whose fault is that? The kids’?
Frankly, if you don’t see the value of education in your world, you’re not going to care to pursue any, regardless of where you came up. It’s not just an inner-city thing.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 6th, 2013
11:02 am
The eonomic[sic] genius of Obama will soon cause every one to be low income so the argument is with out merit. [...] We did have to have a B average in college core curriculum subjects and pass an entrance exam which included such subjects as U.S. History and Civics in addition to Math and English so most of todays aspiring freshamn[sic] probably couldn’t get in.
Oh, the irony.