Liberal critics of drone-warfare standards are simply wrong
In a secret 16-page “white paper” leaked to NBC, Justice Department lawyers have laid out an argument attempting to justify the president’s decision to launch drone attacks even against overseas terrorist leaders who are U.S. citizens.
According to authors of that memo, that presidential authority is derived from “his constitutional responsibility to protect the country, the inherent right of the United States to national self-defense under international law, Congress’s authorization of the use of all necessary and appropriate military force against this enemy, and the existence of an armed conflict with al-Qaida under international law.”
The document also explains the standards implemented by the current administration in using that authority. It concludes that such strikes are legal when:
– The targeted individual is “a senior operational leader of al Qaida or an associated force of al Qaida — that is, an al Qaida leader actively engaged in planning operations to kill Americans.”
– “… an informed, high-level official of the US government has determined that the targeted individual poses an imminent threat of violent attack against the U.S.”
– The capture of the individual located in a foreign country is deemed “infeasible.”
It’s important to point out that this is not a theoretical exercise. President Obama has used this life-and-death authority to order a successful drone strike against Anwar al-Alwaki, a U.S. citizen who became a top regional leader for Al Qaida in Yemen, where arresting him was impossible.
Among other plots, Al-Awlaki helped plan the attempted airliner bombing on Christmas Day in 2009, as well as two attempted cargo-plane bombings using plastic explosives. As a recruiter for al Qaida, he also encouraged the attack by Major Nidal Hasan that killed 13 U.S. soldiers at Fort Hood, Texas.
In the video below, Al-Awlaki makes his loyalties and his intentions quite clear:
“We have chosen the path of war in order to defend ourselves against your oppression,” he says, in one of many damning statements. “God willing, we will continue in this war and you will find us persistent.”
In his particular case, God was not willing. Al-Alwaki died in a drone attack in Yemen on Sept. 30, 2011.
Personally, I have no problem whatsoever with launching such an attack. His citizenship does not outweigh the threat that he clearly posed to the security of this country. Others, however, have expressed deep concern about what they see as a violation of al-Alwaki’s right to legal due process, and about an unconstitutional, even radical expansion of executive powers.
You will sometimes run across a half-hearted version of that critique coming from conservatives, but it is hard to take such complaints seriously. If you doubt that conclusion, imagine what conservative critics would be saying if the Obama administration had announced that it would NOT target known al Qaida leaders out of deference to due process concerns.
The howling would be epic.
On the other hand, those liberals who take issue with the policy tend to be sincere and serious about it, to the point of near-hysteria.
In Salon, for example, columnist David Sirota claims that in the leaked white paper, the White House has asserted the radical power to kill citizens “without any concrete intelligence suggesting a citizen is linked to terrorist activity” (emphasis original). It is a claim that he repeats throughout the column, asserting that “evidence is not required to kill someone,” that “the president doesn’t actually need evidence to order someone’s death” and that “not a single shred of actual evidence is needed not just to prosecute (the target), but to outright execute him.”
Here’s the section of the memo on which Sirota bases that charge:
“The condition that an operational leader present an ‘imminent’ threat of violent attack against the United States does not require the United States to have clear evidence that a specific attack on U.S. persons and interests will take place in the immediate future. Given the nature of, for example, the terrorist attacks on September 11, in which civilian airliners were hijacked to strike the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, this definition of imminence, which would require the United States to refrain from action until preparations for an attack are concluded, would not allow the United States sufficient time to defend itself.”
The memo states that the president doesn’t need evidence of a particular, specific plot being hatched in the immediate future in order to take action against an al Qaida leader. That’s a far cry from “not a single shred of actual evidence is needed.”
And again, the case of al-Alwaki offers a useful example. Given what we already knew about his actions, and given his own public testimony, we did not need evidence of a specific new plot in the immediate future to justify taking action against him. We knew more than enough already.
Glenn Greenwald, writing in The Guardian, takes a tack similar to Sirota, accusing the administration of obviating a citizen’s constitutional right to due process before his life can be taken by his government.
Like Sirota, he writes:
“Specifically, the president’s assassination power ‘does not require that the US have clear evidence that a specific attack . . . will take place in the immediate future’. The US routinely assassinates its targets not when they are engaged in or plotting attacks but when they are at home, with family members, riding in a car, at work, at funerals, rescuing other drone victims, etc. ”
I’m not sure what that last sentence is intended to communicate. Are bank robbers only to be arrested in the actual act of robbing the bank?
That aside, here’s the most basic problem with the criticisms raised by Sirota, Greenwald and others: What is the cure?
If you do not want “an informed, high-level official of the US government,” i.e., the president and commander in chief, to determine whether a “targeted individual poses an imminent threat of violent attack against the U.S.,” to whom would you give that authority?
By casting it as a question of due process, you necessarily invest that full power in the judiciary. You would require a judge or panel of judges to decide from the bench whether it is operationally plausible to capture rather than kill this particular terrorist in this particular country. A judge or judges would have to balance a citizen’s right to due process against the threat of an attack imminent enough to justify military intervention.
No judge is capable of such a decision. On what legal basis could such judgments be based? The answer is none. No reasonable judge would want the power or responsibility to make such national security judgments.
This is not wiretapping, a field in which judges have years of legal training, decades of experience and centuries of constitutional precedent to fall back upon. This cuts to the core of the commander in chief’s duty, and I do not believe for one second that the Founding Fathers envisioned giving judges the power to make such decisions. Giving judges that kind of power and responsibility would make a joke of the separation of powers and seriously damage the security of this country.
– Jay Bookman
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497 comments Add your comment
bman.
February 5th, 2013
4:49 pm
At first glance, I thought this was going to be a blogpost about why liberals are wrong. Could be your next book?
TBS
February 5th, 2013
4:50 pm
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong………..
My best Senator Byrd
Logical Dude
February 5th, 2013
4:50 pm
a) I dislike this about as much as I dislike the president having the power to name anyone an “enemy combatant” and plop them in Guantanamo without legal recourse.
b) The drone attacks are WAY better than invading the whole country – whole hog, with all of the resulting collateral damage. Drone attacks are much more focused and reduce collateral damage. Some may argue that the intelligence behind the drone attacks needs to be improved, but it’s hard to be 100% accurate on anything in war.
c) yes, it’s war. Methods are needed to fight the war and defeat those trying to attack us. I’d rather it be more covert operations than outright war and attacks, but. . .. that’s where we are.
At least we have guidelines to move forward on these attacks. This shows thought goes into this, and not just “drone attack anyone we think might be doing anything!”
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 5th, 2013
4:51 pm
“God willing, we will continue in this war and you will find us persistent.”
In his particular case, God was not willing.
Heh, heh, heh.
josef
February 5th, 2013
4:51 pm
“– The targeted individual is “a senior operational leader of al Qaida or an associated force of al Qaida — that is, an al Qaida leader actively engaged in planning operations to kill Americans.”
So, 16 year old boys are now “senior operational leader(s)”
Sure, whatever…George Zimmerman might should ought to say he thought Tevon was a terrorist, eh?
Keep Up the Good Fight!
February 5th, 2013
4:54 pm
Jay, while I do not disagree with your position, I am troubled by the lack of any oversight. I agree that these policies remain in the formative stages and therefore I believe at a minimum when an American is involved, even post-operation, there should be some review to determine if there was just use. But admittedly, that may not provide much in the way of clarifying standards and does nothing to respond to how to limit abuse.
TBS
February 5th, 2013
4:54 pm
Good points on the droning. Tough call either way. Above my pay grade in terms of the legalities.
Different topic but surely worth noting. I have mentioned this before, some who were up in arms about the Patriot Act, sure have been quiet lately.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
4:55 pm
Jay:
I don’t have a problem with this either but you and the other libs. on here would be howling if a Republican President was doing the same thing.
What hypocrisy !
godless heathen - owner of many things he does not need
February 5th, 2013
4:55 pm
War is all hell – Sherman
Simple Truths
February 5th, 2013
4:55 pm
Did Jay just criticize liberals? *passes out a keyboard *
I better re-read this post.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
4:55 pm
Enter your comments here
Oooops ! These pesky libs. are at it again !
Headline: “City in Virginia Becomes First to Pass Anti-Drone Legislation”
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/02/05/city-in-virginia-becomes-first-to-pass-anti-drone-legislation-
Logical Dude
February 5th, 2013
4:56 pm
quoting the critics: “even against overseas terrorist leaders who are U.S. citizens.”
For me, everyone should have the same rights, US Citizen or not.
That being said, a US Citizen acting as a terrorist should be treated like a terrorist, US Citizen or not.
saywhat?
February 5th, 2013
4:56 pm
I fall somewhere betweeen Jay’s opinion and that of Greenwald/Sirota. It should be allowed but extremely rare, and only under specific conditions such as those laid out.I fully agree with Jay however that the right will trip over themselves in fantastic ways making hypocritical statements in an attempt to fling poo at the president.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
4:57 pm
If a German or Japanese soldiers had landed on our beaches in WWII would a probable cause warrant or “due process” have been required before killiing them (even if some “happened” to be U.S. citizens) ?
I think not.
Just because terrorists are too cowardly to wear uniforms ………… that’s THEIR problem.
Moderate Line
February 5th, 2013
4:58 pm
I will repeat myself. We can’t use enhance interrogation techniques but we can release them into their home country and then kill them with a drone. Make sense?
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
4:58 pm
saywhat?
Just as the left “flung poo” at Bush for the same thing.
Hypocrites ……….. line up and take your medicine !
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 5th, 2013
5:00 pm
enhance interrogation techniques
There’s your sign.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
February 5th, 2013
5:00 pm
passes out a keyboard
Now that has got to be painful. You may want to see a doctor or eat more fiber.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
5:00 pm
Ooooops ! The law and that pesky Constitution are getting in the way again !
“Court: NYTimes’s Request for New York City Gun Owners Violates Law. As did the previous release of a list of gun owners.”
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/court-nytimess-request-new-york-city-gun-owners-violates-law_700264.html
Keep Up the Good Fight!
February 5th, 2013
5:01 pm
Germans and Japanese were Americans? Rabbithole fail!
josef
February 5th, 2013
5:02 pm
SCOUT
That question of citizenship DID come up with captured German operatives in the US who were American citizens…
Moderate Line
February 5th, 2013
5:03 pm
Among other plots, Al-Awlaki helped plan the attempted airliner bombing on Christmas Day in 2009, as well as two attempted cargo-plane bombings using plastic explosives. As a recruiter for al Qaida, he also encouraged the attack by Major Nidal Hasan that killed 13 U.S. soldiers at Fort Hood, Texas.
======
Keep in mind he was in custody twice after Ft. Hood. Once in the US and once in Yemen. I believe Jay is on to something. Don’t use enhance interrogation techniques. Release them and take them out with drone. No messy due process to worry about. No problem with due process or any of that other lefty ACLU crap.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
5:04 pm
Logical Dude @ 4:56
Thank you !
I would go one step further ……….. war is NOT law enforcement.
A U.S. citizen terrorist on U.S. soil should have no more rights than a German spy or soldier would have had in WW II.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
February 5th, 2013
5:04 pm
TBS: some who were up in arms about the Patriot Act, sure have been quiet lately.
Nope. Actually there are many who are still fighting those battles in the courts and on other fronts. They may have changed tactics some and, in other cases, the media and the attention of other Americans have moved on to shiny objects but the objections are still there if you look for them.
Granny Godzilla
February 5th, 2013
5:05 pm
Drones are preferable to brigades.
I trust that this President does not select this option lightly.
.
.
.
.
Oh and Mr. Digits……
Piffle.
AS Jay stated some liberals are not on board with this….but I think you will find most are.
If you review the previous few threads, you will find it has been the conservatives howling.
Scrivener
February 5th, 2013
5:06 pm
Jay says, “The howling would be epic.” This coming from one of the most biased columnists there are who constantly whines and screams about the GOP and rarely points out problems with democrats. Your headlines are a case in point. Seriously, you’re a joke.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
5:06 pm
Keep Up the Good Fight:
If you would check your history you would discover that many Germans and Japanese were U.S. citizens “caught” in those countries and drafted to serve in their armies. Others decided to serve voluntarily.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
5:07 pm
Granny:
Not when Bush was president.
Hypocrisy !! Own it !
Joe Hussein Mama
February 5th, 2013
5:07 pm
If we don’t have some sort of transparency with regard to the standards we’re employing in order to use these, then do we have any legitimate complaint coming when other nations follow our lead? The US is *not* the only country using UACVs, and of those countries using them, they ain’t all friendly, folks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmanned_combat_aerial_vehicle#Proliferation
Keep Up the Good Fight!
February 5th, 2013
5:07 pm
A U.S. citizen terrorist on U.S. soil should have no more rights than a German spy or soldier would have had in WW II.
Well that would conflict with their so-called 2d Amendment rights to battle “tyranny”? Seems you got a blurred line or is it one defined by religion?
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
5:08 pm
josef:
”
“That question of citizenship DID come up with captured German operatives in the US who were American citizens…”
“DID” and “mattering” are two different things.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 5th, 2013
5:10 pm
Jay says, “The howling would be epic.” [...] Seriously, you’re a joke.
Thereby proving Jay’s point.
Too funny!
TBS
February 5th, 2013
5:10 pm
Keep
Did I say all or some? Didn’t say there weren’t those who were and are still opposed and vocal.
You wanted to take it as that, but that is not what I said.
комисса́р (Occupation)
February 5th, 2013
5:10 pm
“In his particular case, God was not willing.”
Well, it’s a bit premature to concluded that, isn’t it? I mean, we just don’t know. Right?
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
5:10 pm
Good Fight:
“Well that would conflict with their so-called 2d Amendment rights to battle “tyranny”?”
And you would be correct unless YOU WIN !
Washington, et al “won” so they are our heroes and founding fathers. Had they lost, they would have been hung and as a British citizen you might not even know their names.
Uh Huh... The penalty for Patriotic Treason is death
February 5th, 2013
5:11 pm
“The US routinely assassinates its targets not when they are engaged in or plotting attacks but when they are at home, with family members, riding in a car, at work, at funerals, rescuing other drone victims, etc”
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Don’t blame the targets of these terrorists………blame the perpetrators.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
5:11 pm
Bumper Sticker:
“Equal Rights for Terrorists”
Granny Godzilla
February 5th, 2013
5:12 pm
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
5:07 pm
Granny:
Not when Bush was president.
Hypocrisy !! Own it !
.
.
.
.
Nope.
Not buying it.
Don’t own it.
josef
February 5th, 2013
5:13 pm
SCOUT
It DID matter…I’ll have to go looking for the case and citation…
A Simple Man
February 5th, 2013
5:13 pm
Logical Dude is on the mark. If a idiot acts and claims to be a terrorist, then treat them like a terrorist. Makes sense to me. No one ever said the Constitution was a suicide parchment.
keith
February 5th, 2013
5:13 pm
Legal experts expressed grave reservations Tuesday about an Obama administration memo concluding that the United States can order the killing of American citizens believed to be affiliated with al-Qaida — with one saying the White House was acting as “judge, jury and executioner.”
Believed to be affiliated. Well Jay, the intel community BELIEVED Hussein had WMDs. According to liberals like YOU lies were told to start a war in Iraq. So will you stand behind this when theres a GOP President and he says he believes YOU are affiliated with terrorists? The standard is that obama believes they are affiliated with terrorists. You really want presidents to have that power? or just obama?
Keep Up the Good Fight!
February 5th, 2013
5:14 pm
Senior Digits, enemy soldiers in uniform caught on American soil are treated as combatants. Those not in uniform who are also Americans caught on American soil are prosecuted. Those on the battlefield are combatants.
You have still failed to address the Red Dawn terrorist that you worship.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
February 5th, 2013
5:15 pm
TBS, sure…. so it could be one person and that is why you were making the post.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
5:15 pm
“DOJ: DRONE STRIKES ON AMERICANS ‘LEGAL’…”
By the way, for the sake of arguement (and even though I support it) the DOJ “opinion” on this does not make it legal.
That will take an eventual decision by the SCOTUS.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 5th, 2013
5:16 pm
…the intel community BELIEVED Hussein had WMDs.
Not intended to be a factual statement.
keith
February 5th, 2013
5:17 pm
American citizens have rights not afforded to citizens of the world. Misguided liberals are offended when the mastermind of 9-11 was waterboarded yet have no problems with a president assassinating American citizens he believes are affiliated with terrorists. Perhaps someday we will have a Conservative President that believes the Democratic Party is affiliated with terrorists. Will you still stand up for the precedent obama is setting then??
Uh Huh... The penalty for Patriotic Treason is death
February 5th, 2013
5:17 pm
Cons just wait until the next attack against the U. S.
Cons won’t be so quick to defend a 16 year old who was probably being groomed
to kill americans and who is willing to die for his cause.
Jay
February 5th, 2013
5:19 pm
“Keep in mind he was in custody twice after Ft. Hood. Once in the US and once in Yemen.”
Do you have a cite for that claim, Moderate? The Fort Hood shooting was 2009; my understanding is al Alwaki went underground in 2006-07.
Moderate Line
February 5th, 2013
5:19 pm
keith
February 5th, 2013
5:13 pm
Legal experts expressed grave reservations Tuesday about an Obama administration memo concluding that the United States can order the killing of American citizens believed to be affiliated with al-Qaida — with one saying the White House was acting as “judge, jury and executioner.”
Believed to be affiliated. Well Jay, the intel community BELIEVED Hussein had WMDs. According to liberals like YOU lies were told to start a war in Iraq. So will you stand behind this when theres a GOP President and he says he believes YOU are affiliated with terrorists? The standard is that obama believes they are affiliated with terrorists. You really want presidents to have that power? or just obama?
+++++
Excellent point. No one looks at this from the standpoint of giving the power to someone they don’t support. Remember when the CIA was involved with Allende overthrow in Chile.
We can’t torture but you can release them and have them killed with drone.
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
February 5th, 2013
5:19 pm
Well, I don’t know about you but I like this drone thingie. No lawyer gumming up the works with endless appeals. No judges to twist the law in the Terrist’s favor. The ACLU can take a hike. No Congress to complain about how these Terrists are just too dangerous to bring into the U.S. to try in court. No bleeding hearts to whine about O the Humanity!when we capture a Terrist and put him in jail.
Just track the guy down and pass the word to the drone pilot. Problem solved.
And don’t give me this bunk about due process. How much due process did all those folks in the World Trade Center get? Or advance notice, for that matter? How many innocent passengers on those planes got due process? When it comes to Terrists, you can take your due process and shove it up where the sun don’t shine, along with your keyboard.
It’s about time we fight the Terrists with their own weapons—sneakiness, suddenness, and deadliness.
That’s my opinion and it’s very true. Have a good night everybody.
Jay
February 5th, 2013
5:20 pm
“Well, it’s a bit premature to conclude that, isn’t it? I mean, we just don’t know. Right?”
No, we know. God was not willing to let him continue, because he is dead. Now, as to the outcome of the larger struggle ….?
TBS
February 5th, 2013
5:20 pm
Keep
Really? If that is your take fella, rock on.
I made a statement that you purposely took out of context. Your bs, not mine.
There are people who were up in arms about the Patriot Act when Bush was President who are now silent.
You not wanting to admit it or wanting to take my statement out of context doesn’t change the facts.
So my point is valid and I stand by it.
You can play semantics all evening if that makes you feel better.
arnold
February 5th, 2013
5:20 pm
I’d rather send a drone to wipe them out than a bunch of grunts. When I was in the army, we didn’t have drones. A lot more American soldiers died. Let the terrorists die without any of our troops. I feel nasty today.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
5:21 pm
Good fight:
“Senior Digits, enemy soldiers in uniform caught on American soil are treated as combatants.”
Yes and they are shot at and killed without probable cause warrants or due process.
“Those not in uniform who are also Americans caught on American soil are prosecuted.”
If they aren’t shot first ! Then they could be executed as spies.
Moderate Line
February 5th, 2013
5:21 pm
Redneck Convert (R–and proud of it)
February 5th, 2013
5:19 pm
Well, I don’t know about you but I like this drone thingie. No lawyer gumming up the works with endless appeals. No judges to twist the law in the Terrist’s favor. The ACLU can take a hike. No Congress to complain about how these Terrists are just too dangerous to bring into the U.S. to try in court. No bleeding hearts to whine about O the Humanity!when we capture a Terrist and put him in jail.
Just track the guy down and pass the word to the drone pilot. Problem solved.
And don’t give me this bunk about due process. How much due process did all those folks in the World Trade Center get? Or advance notice, for that matter? How many innocent passengers on those planes got due process? When it comes to Terrists, you can take your due process and shove it up where the sun don’t shine, along with your keyboard.
It’s about time we fight the Terrists with their own weapons—sneakiness, suddenness, and deadliness.
That’s my opinion and it’s very true. Have a good night everybody.
+++++
Look who you agree with Jay. Interesting.
pogo
February 5th, 2013
5:21 pm
Who decides who is a “Terrorist” and who is this “informed high level official” in the government making this decision? The DOJ’s second justification should make everyone nervous. The ambiguity of the second premise reeks and is exactly why this should be a court matter subject to constitutional law. No one person should be able to make the decision to side-step the constitution. Not even Jay’s much worshipped Obama. Those that support Obama’s continued attack on the Constitution should be very concerned.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
5:21 pm
Oh, you own it Granny whether you claim it or not !
Matt321
February 5th, 2013
5:21 pm
I am glad you mention Glenn Greenwald. For anyone wanting to see a clear, articulate argument supporting the United States Constitution (and not ignoring it, as Jay has chosen to do), please check him out.
This isn’t a Republican/Democratic issue or a liberal/conservative issue. At stake is nothing less than the rule of law, and whether or not the President should have the power to be judge, jury, and executioner (and all in secret, to boot!).
Jay, please explain why you’re comfortable with the United States, two weeks later, killing his American son.
ClydeFr0g
February 5th, 2013
5:21 pm
It does not surprise me one bit that Jay supports the unchallenged authority of Obama’s federal government or the complete disregard for a citizen’s Constitutional rights.
We are talking about assassination of American citizens without due process of law here folks. I fully believe this guy was a no-good piece of trash and he deserved to die, but I do not believe in setting a precedent that our government can accuse someone of being a terrorist and then murder them. This is a VERY dangerous precedent. this guy (and his murdered 16 year old son) could have at least been tried in abstentia.
Amazing to me that so many here are blind to the fact this this is exactly a road to a tyrannical government…the NDAA allowing indefinite detention of citizens merely for being accused by the government of terrorism, the NSA whose SOLE purpose is to spy on US, the citizens, the TSA who routinely violate our Constitutional rights.
Yet still you will sit here and deny the need for the Second Amendment to allow the citizens to defend themselves from a tyrannical government because “seriously, this is 21st century America…there is no possibility of a tyrannical government anymore”. Yeah, right.
ty webb
February 5th, 2013
5:22 pm
as long as the drone doesn’t waterboard anyone I say drone away.
keith
February 5th, 2013
5:22 pm
the intel community BELIEVED Hussein had WMDs.
Not intended to be a factual statement.
George Tenet, Clintons CIA Director when asked if Iraq had WMDs. Its a slam dunk. Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, Leon Panetta, all BELIEVED Iraq had WMDs. So now you want those same people murdering American citizens because they BELIEVE they are affiliated with terrorists? What does affiliated mean anyways? Have a conversation with one? Eat in the same restaurant? Distant cousin of one? Who decides what affiliated means? Obama? the same that that has lost millions on bad investments? the same guy that organized the murderous community of Chicago?
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
5:23 pm
Swift, Silent, Deadly !
Jay
February 5th, 2013
5:23 pm
“The standard is that obama believes they are affiliated with terrorists. You really want presidents to have that power?”
Would you rather have the person elected to serve as commander in chief with that power, or would you rather devolve that national-security decision-making onto unelected judges whose only expertise is in the law?
That is the question, plain and simple.
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
5:23 pm
Don’t see an issue in this, Drone on. Or keep on droning.
Simple Truths
February 5th, 2013
5:24 pm
Re-read the post. Still can’t believe it.
Keep, maybe I need that fiber you were mentioning.
Moderate Line
February 5th, 2013
5:24 pm
If you do not want “an informed, high-level official of the US government,” i.e., the president and commander in chief, to determine whether a “targeted individual poses an imminent threat of violent attack against the U.S.,” to whom would you give that authority?
++++++
The president has unchecked power outsides the border.
I guess coup that brought Pinochet to power was Ok.
josef
February 5th, 2013
5:25 pm
Uh-oh
“Cons won’t be so quick to defend a 16 year old who was probably being groomed to kill americans and who is willing to die for his cause.”‘
I’m not a con. And your ‘probably’ is the key factor…this is the “nits make lice” arguments of Sherman and Eichmann…
You’re “probably” a dip-sh*t. I’ve declared war on dip-sh*ts. Therefore I can drone you.
Logical Dude
February 5th, 2013
5:26 pm
Matt321: whether or not the President should have the power to be judge, jury, and executioner
Well, this power was already given to Bush, when he could name anyone an “enemy combatant” and have them killed or sent to Guantanamo indefinitely.
Dave
February 5th, 2013
5:27 pm
“No judge is capable of such a decision.” If that is the case then neither is the President or some unnamed “an informed, high-level official of the US government.” If you acknowledge the concept of a U.S. citizen having due process rights, then you don’t do what you are signing on for. Due process is the heart of our political process. And then you close with an nod at original intent. Not at all your best work Jay.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 5th, 2013
5:28 pm
George Tenet, Clintons CIA Director when asked if Iraq had WMDs. Its a slam dunk. Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, Leon Panetta, all BELIEVED Iraq had WMDs.
Sorry sport.
Your list isn’t the entire “intel community.”
The United Kingdom, Australia and Poland were the only other countries involved in the initial invasion, and the rest of the world told Bush to suck eggs.
josef
February 5th, 2013
5:29 pm
MATT
“At stake is nothing less than the rule of law, and whether or not the President should have the power to be judge, jury, and executioner (and all in secret”
Yes.
“…whose only expertise is in the law?”
Well, I suppose if the law gets in the way…
We could, of course, just round up and lock away anybody of Arab ancestry or of the Muslim faith…
we have precedent in just such…we didn’t let the law get in the way then, now did we?
keith
February 5th, 2013
5:29 pm
Since American citizens BELIEVED to be affiliated with terrorists can be killed without a trial should we eliminate all the appeals processes for people found guilty of murder. Murdering people terrorizes society does it not? So jay, want to start executing convicted murderers too or just those your president believes may be affiliated with terrorists. Remember, they dont have to be terrorists, just affiliated. And we dont even know who decides what affiliated means. A really good president could believe bookman is affiliated with terrorists based on many of his columns. Get those drones ready. lol
Jay
February 5th, 2013
5:29 pm
“I guess coup that brought Pinochet to power was Ok.”
You guess wrong again.
Did Chile or Allende attack us? Did Congress authorize military force against Chile or Allende? Did Chile or Allende pose an imminent violent threat to the US?
No no and no.
Put in another quarter and try again.
Logical Dude
February 5th, 2013
5:30 pm
Dave: If you acknowledge the concept of a U.S. citizen having due process rights
Yep, process rights work when police arrest someone. War has different rules.
War has different rules.
Dave
February 5th, 2013
5:31 pm
And as to your question at 5:23 p.m. question, judges should decide, plain and simple, based on advocacy on behalf of the government and the alleged terrorist (note the adjective) and evidence. You go on about judges having the skill set or desire to decide. Obama has such a background? W? Which president other than perhaps Washington and other war veterans has any objective experience in the matter?
keith
February 5th, 2013
5:32 pm
Sorry sport.
Your list isn’t the entire “intel community.”
The United Kingdom, Australia and Poland were the only other countries involved in the initial invasion, and the rest of the world told Bush to suck eggs.
So the rest of the world would have a say in who the US determines is affiliated with terrorists before they are killed? WRONG bozo.
keith
February 5th, 2013
5:36 pm
bookman wants the president to have that power now. right now. not 5 years ago and perhaps not 5 years from now. just right now with his Lord and Saviour in office. His opinions change with the elections. His guy wins, more power to the White House. His guy loses, take away the dictators power. How do any of you take bookman seriously? Hes a clown.
indigo
February 5th, 2013
5:36 pm
Obama is targeting enemies that have declared war on us and would nuke our country if they could. If fact, we know they are actively seeking nuclear weapons. Because of this, we must hunt them down and kill them before they kill us. It’s just that simple.
Cons here critize we liberals relentlessly but never critize their conservative idols.
We libs are different. Any liberals who critize Obama on this issue really are “fuzzy bleeding hearts” and I most definitely don’t support them.
Jay
February 5th, 2013
5:37 pm
“Since American citizens BELIEVED to be affiliated with terrorists can be killed without a trial should we eliminate all the appeals processes for people found guilty of murder.
Just pure silliness. A person found guilty of murder is already captured, is already in this country, is presumably not an al Aqaida leader and can’t carry out any terror attacks from prison. So he or she meets none of the tests laid out above.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 5th, 2013
5:37 pm
Keith — “So the rest of the world would have a say in who the US determines is affiliated with terrorists before they are killed?”
I like how you read what others post and then put it through a crazy filter (patent pending) before reposting and responding to it.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
5:40 pm
Logical Dude @ 5:30
“Yep, process rights work when police arrest someone. War has different rules.
War has different rules.”
Thank you ……….. most people on here who have done NEITHER don’t know that difference.
keith
February 5th, 2013
5:40 pm
Would you rather have the person elected to serve as commander in chief with that power, or would you rather devolve that national-security decision-making onto unelected judges whose only expertise is in the law?
That is the question, plain and simple.
I dont think ANYONE should be able to say I Believe you AMERICAN CITIZEN are affiliated with terrorists so you must die. That is completely contrary to the Constitution, something you have very little regard for until a GOP President is elected.
A Simple Man
February 5th, 2013
5:42 pm
I’m shocked by the outcry. The President’s number one duty to this country is protection. I don’t really agree with much that he does, and I’m not willing to give him absolute power, but war is not a precise system. I can sleep with him taking out people trying to commit acts of terror. I don’t really care if they are truly foreign or U.S. Citizens pretending. Their bombs would kill me just the same, so treat them just the same.
josef
February 5th, 2013
5:42 pm
CLYDE
@ 5:21
“We are talking about assassination of American citizens without due process of law here folks. I fully believe this guy was a no-good piece of trash and he deserved to die, but I do not believe in setting a precedent that our government can accuse someone of being a terrorist and then murder them. This is a VERY dangerous precedent. this guy (and his murdered 16 year old son) could have at least been tried in abstentia.”
Yep.
keith
February 5th, 2013
5:43 pm
Sorry sport.
Keith — “So the rest of the world would have a say in who the US determines is affiliated with terrorists before they are killed?”
I like how you read what others post and then put it through a crazy filter (patent pending) before reposting and responding to it.
I WILL REMIND YOU OF YOUR EARLIER POST:
Your list isn’t the entire “intel community.”
The United Kingdom, Australia and Poland were the only other countries involved in the initial invasion, and the rest of the world told Bush to suck eggs.
See where you posted the REST OF THE WORLD BOZO?
keith
February 5th, 2013
5:45 pm
If Bush were doing this Bookman would be having a coronary and every post on here would be hammering him, including my own.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 5th, 2013
5:46 pm
Keith — “I WILL REMIND YOU OF YOUR EARLIER POST:”
No, you won’t. Not *my* earlier post.
“See where you posted the REST OF THE WORLD BOZO?”
See where you’re raging at the *wrong guy,* BOZO? (laughing)
You’ve got your posters mixed up, son, Try decaf and see if you can’t get the jerking of your knee under control.
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
5:46 pm
Presidential Oath of Office: “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
Federal Oath of Office: “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”
Enemies of the Constitution are not limited to foreigners in foreign lands. Our military and federal law enforcement are bound by oath to defend the Constitution against ALL enemies.
—————
Different topic but surely worth noting. I have mentioned this before, some who were up in arms about the Patriot Act, sure have been quiet lately.
Well, given that our circus of a media gets easily distracted by such things as skeet shooting and such, other newsworthy items tend to get lost in the shuffle.
Jay
February 5th, 2013
5:46 pm
Tried in abstentia meets no test of due process. No right to confront witnesses, no right to testify on own behalf. And if the court got it wrong and the person later kills thousands, what then? Who’s accountable then?
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
5:49 pm
“Liberal critics of drone-warfare standards are simply wrong”
How about this tomorrow ……….
Liberal critics of Second Amendment standards are simply wrong !
Logical Dude
February 5th, 2013
5:50 pm
Keith: ‘If Bush were doing this Bookman would be having a coronary and every post on here would be hammering him, including my own.”
You can use this feature thingy on this website: archives. To the right. Look in the archives to see if Jay posted anything about Bush using “enemy combatant” rules.
Or:
Hey Jay, did you post anything years about about “enemy combatant” rules?
I see this as similar. (although, not reading the full memo above, not sure *how* similar drone use is to naming someone an “enemy combatant”)
(me: lazy, not gonna search)
Matt321
February 5th, 2013
5:51 pm
Jay – you are aware that the President is claiming the authority to kill people who ARE NOT PLANNING attacks, and who ARE NOT leaders of Al Qaeda, right? Under the wording of the memo, if the President doesn’t like Jay Bookman, and on his prodding some low level flunky gives him a memo (informed!) that Mr. Bookman is associated with terrorist forces, and it’s just not feasible to capture him (because he’s on vacation in Tahiti), then Jay could be placed on the kill list.
Of course, after the government blows him up with a drone strike, they’ll leak all kinds of damning information about him to the press, which will happily report how high level administration sources report that evil Bookman was actually in correspondence with several other evil villians across the globe. Who cares if it’s all made up? There’s never going to be a trial, after all.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
February 5th, 2013
5:52 pm
but I do not believe in setting a precedent that our government can accuse someone of being a terrorist and then murder them.
You have not stated to standard to act correctly. The standard as Jay pointed out is:
It concludes that such strikes are legal when:
– The targeted individual is “a senior operational leader of al Qaida or an associated force of al Qaida — that is, an al Qaida leader actively engaged in planning operations to kill Americans.”
– “… an informed, high-level official of the US government has determined that the targeted individual poses an imminent threat of violent attack against the U.S.”
– The capture of the individual located in a foreign country is deemed “infeasible.”
That is a multi-part test and not merely “declaring someone a terrorist”. Now perhaps you can move the determination to a “judge” but its clearly not a “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard, nor is it a “reasonable person” standard or “more likely than not.” It would appear that a President would have more information and security clearances to determine if the standard has been met and would be “tried” by the American press and public for failure. I am not happy with it but these are tough decisions for extreme security. I think there is more of a “check” on a President to act with restraint than there is a “judge”.
josef
February 5th, 2013
5:52 pm
JAY
@ 5:46
So, just drone the b*stid, then? The rule of law be d*maned?
This is a slippery slope…at the risk of bringing out the charge of Godwin’s law…did we not learn anything from that little exercise back when?
Am I saying it’s the same thing? Not yet, But, ineoiauo, those signs don’t read the road I want to go down…
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
5:52 pm
I dont think ANYONE should be able to say I Believe you AMERICAN CITIZEN are affiliated with terrorists so you must die.
Not even when said “ANYONE” has posted numerous videos online that confirm his extremist views and links with terrorists? Not even when said “ANYONE” becomes the English spokesperson for the terrorist network that he’s affiliated with? Not even when said “ANYONE” publishes an English language propaganda magazine for that same terrorist network?
What is your level of proof necessary to confirm someone is involved with terrorism?
barking frog
February 5th, 2013
5:53 pm
Enemies of the USA should be killed where they are found, when
they are found and by whoever finds them. Soldiers have this authority.
Jay
February 5th, 2013
5:54 pm
It’s interesting how conservatives go from “you’re not allowed to bring up He Who Must Not Be Named” to “oh yeah, well what about BUSH, huh?”
indigo
February 5th, 2013
5:54 pm
Scout – 5:49
How about apples and oranges?
Moderate Line
February 5th, 2013
5:56 pm
Jay
February 5th, 2013
5:29 pm
“I guess coup that brought Pinochet to power was Ok.”
You guess wrong again.
Did Chile or Allende attack us? Did Congress authorize military force against Chile or Allende? Did Chile or Allende pose an imminent violent threat to the US?
No no and no.
Put in another quarter and try again.
++++
I don’t know only an elected commander in chief can be trusted with such a call. And guess what Nixon took him out.
I am pretty confident that the rationalization is pretty much the same considering Allende was a Marxist. Plus what is to stop the President
Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/281069-doj-white-paper-on-killer-drones-and-us-citizens-abroad#ixzz2K4HK4D3a
Follow us: @thehill on Twitter | TheHill on Facebook
Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/281069-doj-white-paper-on-killer-drones-and-us-citizens-abroad#ixzz2K4E0FJYs
Follow us: @thehill on Twitter | TheHill on Facebook
Union
February 5th, 2013
5:56 pm
i do support the use of drones.. my only concern is that when we publicly discuss such issues.. it adds insult to injury.. there are people around the world that would take the position that president obama is the enemy and try to reciprocate.. which i truly hope never happens.
saywhat?
February 5th, 2013
5:57 pm
I think I would prefer US citizens accused of acting with terrorists against the U.S., but unable to be apprehended because they are in foreign countries, be tried in absentia. The individual could provide his own defense of one could be supplied if he failed to do so.
If they are found guilty, perhaps the sentence could be execution by drone or any other military attack, at a time and place at the Presidents discretion.
It seems there would be plenty of time to accomplish such trials given the rare occurrence of the US citizen/terrorist scenario. Its not as if we come upon random drone targets and identify them on the spot as US citizens.
josef
February 5th, 2013
5:57 pm
IMAM TORQUEMADA
And what’s your take on the 16 year old boy…?
Moderate Line
February 5th, 2013
5:58 pm
Jay
February 5th, 2013
5:54 pm
It’s interesting how conservatives go from “you’re not allowed to bring up He Who Must Not Be Named” to “oh yeah, well what about BUSH, huh?”
+++++
I believe both are wrong. I find it interesting you can torture someone but you can release him and kill him with drone.
Jay
February 5th, 2013
5:58 pm
“Under the wording of the memo, if the President doesn’t like Jay Bookman, and on his prodding some low level flunky gives him a memo (informed!) that Mr. Bookman is associated with terrorist forces, and it’s just not feasible to capture him (because he’s on vacation in Tahiti), then Jay could be placed on the kill list.
This is where the word “overwrought” comes in.
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
6:00 pm
josef
Re Al-Awlaki’s son…
If he were just an innocent victim, why was he in hiding for more than half a year in the same mountains used as a hideaway by the Yemen AQ offshoot group? Why was he riding in a convoy with Ibrahim al-Bana, who was the main media person for AQ in Yemen?
I’m not trying to blame the son, nor am I condoning killing him. However, at some point and time, a person has to be responsible for their actions. You can’t go hang out with the Outlaws, the Bloods, or any other group targeted by law enforcement as a criminal group and not know what they do, how they operate, or what they stand for after some point and time.
Union
February 5th, 2013
6:01 pm
This is where the word “overwrought” comes in
its not like this is happening all the time.. i think there is a tad bit more thinking that goes into the process..
getalife
February 5th, 2013
6:01 pm
Libs have been consistently against it when w gained this power but that is a pretty good argument Jay.
Thomas
February 5th, 2013
6:01 pm
You are defending the wrong point here Jay. It seems fine when we, aka the good guys, use drones for overseas killings because we, the good guys, are always “right”, aren’t we?. Drones are becoming common place and I assume Russia, China, Pakistan, etc. will, or do have the technology and they, good guys in their eyes, have or will determine certain Americans on American soil are legitimate targets. They, like us, will also consider 14 year old Suzy who is next in line at the DQ simply collateral damage.
The point is joy stick warfare removes the human element and literally 100s of different countries/leaders/cowboys will be self determining who is fair game- not moral and no way to defend it.
barking frog
February 5th, 2013
6:02 pm
“Under the wording of the memo, if the President doesn’t like Jay Bookman, and on his prodding some low level flunky gives him a memo (informed!) that Mr. Bookman is associated with terrorist forces, and it’s just not feasible to capture him (because he’s on vacation in Tahiti), then Jay could be placed on the kill list.
…………………………………………………………
there is always some collateral damage in wartime……..
Keep Up the Good Fight!
February 5th, 2013
6:02 pm
And if a President decided to put Jay on the kill list knowingly based on false information (probably provided by one of the self-imposed suicide posters) then the President could be impeached and prosecuted for murder or war crimes.
Dave
February 5th, 2013
6:03 pm
The “heat of battle” and the commander in chief arguments don’t hold up to examination. If “this is war” and the President gets to make the decision to launch a drone then there is no such thing as a war criminal. Drones are launched after consideration of evidence done far from the battlefield. We aren’t giving a soldier in a foxhole a break for shooting the wrong guy or inflicting collateral damage because he aimed the mortar a bit incorrectly. The president is the analytical equivalent to any other head of state – the Hitlers, Stalins, Pol Pots and so on. Were we wrong to conduct the Nuremberg Trials? The answer is yes if Obama or any other President gets a pass and due process doesn’t apply.
Uh Huh... The penalty for Patriotic Treason is death
February 5th, 2013
6:04 pm
@josef
February 5th, 2013
5:25 pm
Uh-oh
“Cons won’t be so quick to defend a 16 year old who was probably being groomed to kill americans and who is willing to die for his cause.”‘
I’m not a con. And your ‘probably’ is the key factor…this is the “nits make lice” arguments of Sherman and Eichmann…
You’re “probably” a dip-sh*t. I’ve declared war on dip-sh*ts. Therefore I can drone you.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Your NAIVETE’….lack of sophistication or worldliness is well taken.
Your lack of an intelligent response is also well taken.
Dave
February 5th, 2013
6:04 pm
One last thing, what is liberal or conservative about this issue?
barking frog
February 5th, 2013
6:04 pm
josef
16 year olds can kill and be killed……
josef
February 5th, 2013
6:05 pm
BROSEPHUS
Question: could it not be that as his grandfather said, that he went to find his daddy? He was a BOY,,,did you (and I) not go to find our daddies to see what it was that all those people were saying about them? His daddy was on the world stage and, yes, was a terrorist, but can you not accept that this may well have been mine and your quest in essence?
Moderate Line
February 5th, 2013
6:05 pm
Jay
February 5th, 2013
5:58 pm
“Under the wording of the memo, if the President doesn’t like Jay Bookman, and on his prodding some low level flunky gives him a memo (informed!) that Mr. Bookman is associated with terrorist forces, and it’s just not feasible to capture him (because he’s on vacation in Tahiti), then Jay could be placed on the kill list.
This is where the word “overwrought” comes in.
+++
Whether it is overwrought or not you have given him that power. And that power has been abused many times in the past. He is answerable to one.
Lynnie Gal
February 5th, 2013
6:05 pm
I agree with you, Jay. The outcry and insinuations about the president’s assertion that it is legal to “kill Americans” is very misguided and irresponsible. These two “Americans” were terrorists living abroad whose intent was to harm other Americans. I support Obama’s decision to pursue and destroy terrorists whether they were born in America or not. The point is, once they leave America and plot to destroy people in America, they lose their protection as Americans.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 5th, 2013
6:07 pm
What if there was something like the FISA court (which applies to wiretapping), but which could apply to the targeting of American citizens who are known to be dealing directly with known terrorists and known terror organizations?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act_of_1978_Amendments_Act_of_2008#Provisions
The President (or DoD or DHS or whichever delegated authority) could go to the court, provide the judge their documentation and answer questions. I presume the government would be required to turn over *all* information they had that pertained to the target, not just information that made the target look bad.
The court gets to consider the evidence and render a ruling. Only if the court concurs can the US citizen then be targeted without trial.
This is just a quick idea; surely others could add some meat on these bones and make it a more comprehensive policy.
josef
February 5th, 2013
6:08 pm
Uh-Huh
“Your lack of an intelligent response is also well taken.”
Likewise, I’m sure.
FROG
So, then, may I assume you’re in favor of the death penalty for minors?
Joe Hussein Mama
February 5th, 2013
6:08 pm
BTW, I’m out. Y’all chew on that idea and see what you can make of it, please.
barking frog
February 5th, 2013
6:10 pm
When the President identifies an enemy combatant in the Congress,
He can shoot him on the Capitol steps as far as I’m concerned and
probably should.
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
6:11 pm
josef
That is entirely plausible, which is why I don’t condone targeting him. Have you considered that maybe nobody within the intelligence community knew he was that close to the known terrorists? How many times have you snuck into a place where nobody knew that you were there?
I’ve thrown many different scenarios around in my head, but none of that thinking can undo what’s already been done. My hope is that we’ve learned from that incident and history doesn’t repeat itself again.
barking frog
February 5th, 2013
6:12 pm
josef
So, then, may I assume you’re in favor of the death penalty for minors?
……………………………………………………………………………….
if they are enemy combatants…
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 5th, 2013
6:14 pm
So the rest of the world would have a say in who the US determines is affiliated with terrorists before they are killed?
No, but the rest of the world belongs to what you labeled the “intel community”, sport.
Please don’t try to move the goalposts. You just don’t have what it takes to lift them.
F. Sinkwich
February 5th, 2013
6:15 pm
So what some rag-head terrorist get a missile up his worthless butt?
Meanwhile, back at the ranch:
“The Congressional Budget Office on Tuesday quietly raised the 10-year cost of ObamaCare´s insurance subsidies offered via the health law´s exchanges by $233 billion, according to a Congressional Budget Office review of its latest spending forecast. The CBO´s new baseline estimate shows that ObamaCare subsidies offered through the insurance exchanges — which are supposed to be up and running by next January — will total more than $1 trillion through 2022, up from $814 billion over those same years in its budget forecast made a year ago. ”
Wow. Never saw that coming (kinda like them terrorists and a Predator).
Our welfare state under “Skeets” O’Bozo is unaffordable and unsustainable yet this issue is ignored by the swooning MSM and associated other America-haters.
Once again:
RIP USA 1776-2012
josef
February 5th, 2013
6:16 pm
FROG
And how was it determined that Junior was an “enemy combatant?”
BROSEPHUS
I realize that I’m close to joining the boa chorus here, but the boy was targeted…
Emotionally, I can go with the drone that mo-fo as far as Papa is concerned, but the boy? This is what I mean by slippery slope…my emotions there are just as strong…
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
6:17 pm
By the way, does anyone remember Obama’s position on drones “before” he was president?
Just asking.
kayaker 71
February 5th, 2013
6:18 pm
Bookman,
Coming from one of the most abashed Bush critics, your thread is abysmal. What a hypocrite!!! It wasn’t OK for Bush to monitor overseas telephone calls from suspected terrorists. You and the ACLU went orbital. We waterboarded three terrorists and ultimately got OBL from the intel and we were beasts and not even human. Now your president is considering killing American citizens without due process and it’s OK, just because he is Bozo and a Democrat. You have lost all credibility. BTW, Bozo also got a 16 yr old son of that American citizen. The logic of liberals is pathetic.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 5th, 2013
6:19 pm
CBO: Obamacare will cost 7 million workers healthcare coverage…
drudgey spam.
barking frog
February 5th, 2013
6:19 pm
josef
And how was it determined that Junior was an “enemy combatant?”
………………………………………………………………………………
he was within the definition of enemy combatants.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
6:20 pm
indigo:
“Scout – 5:49
How about apples and oranges?”
They are apples and oranges …………….. but both just as important.
Peace
February 5th, 2013
6:20 pm
And what does Obama say when a drone blasts an innocent target to smithereens? Uh oh? Maybe he proclaims executive privilege. Pretty sure Jay Carney will emerge and tell us that the victim was a genuine terrorist, plotting a strike against U.S interests, but specific information cannot be released due to national security concerns.
In the very least, the Obama administration should be able to eliminate a few domestic political adversaries when they’re traveling in other parts of the world.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
6:21 pm
kayaker 71:
“Coming from one of the most abashed Bush critics, your thread is abysmal. What a hypocrite!!! It wasn’t OK for Bush to monitor overseas telephone calls from suspected terrorists. You and the ACLU went orbital. We waterboarded three terrorists and ultimately got OBL from the intel and we were beasts and not even human. Now your president is considering killing American citizens without due process and it’s OK, just because he is Bozo and a Democrat. You have lost all credibility. BTW, Bozo also got a 16 yr old son of that American citizen. The logic of liberals is pathetic.”
Thanks buddy ……………… YOU NAILED IT !!!!
josef
February 5th, 2013
6:22 pm
KAYAKER
“The logic of liberals is pathetic”
This isn’t liberal logic…it’s two-stepping and bordering on caudilloismo…
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
6:22 pm
kayaker 71:
Let me clarify …………… I suppost Obama’s position on using drones as outline above.
However, I also condemn the hypocrisy of libs. on here in their support of same as opposed to what they supported or didn’t support under Bush.
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
6:22 pm
josef
Here’s something that’s rarely mentioned by the US media…
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/11/us-pakistan-bombers-youth-feature-idUSTRE71A35I20110211
On the previous thread, I posted a CNN story about madrassas over in the ME that were teaching kids to hate America. I’m not going to make any claims or judgments on the son, but there is already factual proof that kids are being involved in terrorist activities. Does that mean we should target kids? NO!! However, we can’t be naive of a potential threat just because of age.
I also understand the slippery slope argument, and I think we would have already seen an escalation of things if that were the case. I think the media scrutiny along with public debate is keeping things under control.
barking frog
February 5th, 2013
6:23 pm
Peace
And what does Obama say when a drone blasts an innocent target to smithereens? Uh oh?
…………………………………………………….
Pretty much.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
6:23 pm
Excuse me:
“support”
josef
February 5th, 2013
6:23 pm
FROG
He was not.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
February 5th, 2013
6:24 pm
And Sinky attempts the deflect with an unsupported claim about CBO estimates that were made in MARCH 2012, 11 months ago.
http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/03-13-Coverage%20Estimates.pdf
barking frog
February 5th, 2013
6:25 pm
Kayaker 71
Now your president is considering killing American citizens without due process and it’s OK, just because he is Bozo and a Democrat
………………………………………………………………………..
No. Because the Congress of the USA AUTHORIZED him to do so.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
February 5th, 2013
6:27 pm
We waterboarded three terrorists and ultimately got OBL from the intel and we were beasts and not even human
Nope. The intel was not a result of waterboarding (note that you don’t even bother to support that claim) but I acknowledge that given your racism and other posts, I am willing to accept your evaluation of your beast not human standard (again, YOUR evaluation).
josef
February 5th, 2013
6:28 pm
BROSEPHUS
I have no argument with that about youth and brainwashing, etc. But, let’s drop the two stepping. In this case it boils down to nits make lice. Otherwise why would a 16 year old merit a drone, that is if we are to accept that “we would have already seen an escalation of things if that were the case” If it is THAT thought out and selective, then the condemnation, imeoiauo, becomes all the more questionable…
barking frog
February 5th, 2013
6:28 pm
josef
in order to be targeted as an enemy combatant a person
has to meet the definition of an enemy combatant otherwise
if killed they are collateral damage..
Hiram
February 5th, 2013
6:29 pm
Jay, Do you ever get the urge to stop by a preschool playground and argue with the little kids?
josef
February 5th, 2013
6:31 pm
FROG
A target is collateral damage?
Moderate Line
February 5th, 2013
6:35 pm
hypothetical – Another question since it is an act of war if Al-Quaeda surrender would we have to release the ones we control and would be able to carry on attacks against them until we were attack again?
Moderate Line
February 5th, 2013
6:37 pm
Imminent threat does not really mean imminent threat.
“With this understanding, the document added, a high-level official could conclude, for example, that an individual poses an imminent threat of violent attack against the United States where he is an operational leader of al-Qaida or an associated force and is personally and continually involved in planning terrorist attacks against the United States.”
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/02/05/drone-strikes-justice-department-memo-brennan/1893581/
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 5th, 2013
6:38 pm
Imminent threat does not really mean imminent threat.
The smoking gun is the mushroom cloud.
F. Sinkwich
February 5th, 2013
6:39 pm
“And Sinky attempts the deflect with an unsupported claim about CBO estimates that were made in MARCH 2012, 11 months ago.”
Oh, and here Sinky thought heard O’Bozo say Obamacare would SAVE money yet every subsequent estimate, regaredless of timing, says O’Bozo is a lying piece of sh*t.
Sinky knows O’Bozo’s deeply held desire is to turn America into a euro-socialist basketcase. Why? Because it’s “fair.”
Sinky is wiser than you.
Jay
February 5th, 2013
6:42 pm
“Jay, Do you ever get the urge to stop by a preschool playground and argue with the little kids?
Why Hiram, wherever did you get such a strange notion? ;>)
barking frog
February 5th, 2013
6:43 pm
josef
collateral damage is not a target.
saywhat?
February 5th, 2013
6:45 pm
Hiram-“Jay, Do you ever get the urge to stop by a preschool playground and argue with the little kids?”
Jay-”Why Hiram, wherever did you get such a strange notion? ;>)”
—————————————————————
I never see Jay over at Kyle’s place.
josef
February 5th, 2013
6:47 pm
FROG
Well, was Junior a target or collateral damage?
JamVet
February 5th, 2013
6:47 pm
I find it quite remarkable that in no time flat the GOP has lost the battle for national security. I believe this is a direct consequence of the failed and deadly Bush administration and a damning indictment of the entire neoconservative ideology and preemptive, chosen wars.
Traditionally, Republican candidates had always enjoyed a so-called “national-security advantage” (at least in those elections where foreign and defense policies were major issues). Only a short eight years ago, George W. Bush enjoyed a eighteen-point lead over John Kerry when exit polls asked voters to rate who they trusted to wage the “war on terror” more effectively, and of those voters who made national security a voting issue, sixty percent favored the Republican incumbent. No longer.
The November 2012 Rasmussen report now gives Democrats the edge when the question is posed as to which party is better equipped to deal with national security. Veterans and active duty military are more likely to split their votes rather than acting as a reliably Republican voting bloc, as occurred in other recent past elections. Exit polling after the 2012 campaign concluded suggested that President Barack Obama and his challenger, Governor Mitt Romney, polled “equally on national security” and that voters “trusted the president 11 points more on the broader category of international affairs.” Peter Beinart concluded that, in winning reelection, Obama has “broken the GOP’s decades-old advantage on foreign affairs.”
http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/how-the-gop-lost-national-security-7842
Failure, in the form of deceit and botched invasions and occupations, has consequences.
jconservative
February 5th, 2013
6:48 pm
Right or wrong, for 224 years every US president has taken the position that when we are at war, the rules get bent to insure the survival of the American state. Every president takes an oath to “protect and defend”. Every president from G. Washington through B. Obama have taken the position that the survival of the United States is first and individual rights are second. There have been no exceptions. And I do not anticipate any exceptions in the distant foreseeable future.
getalife
February 5th, 2013
6:53 pm
Drones are better than losing troops .
barking frog
February 5th, 2013
6:53 pm
josef
as far as I know he was a target…
Get Real
February 5th, 2013
6:53 pm
Liberal Hypocrisy….waterboard is torture and we have to close Gitmo….however, let’s just target andfvaporize instead. Don’t get me wrong, I fully support the policy but I have to laugh at the liberal hypocrisy…
josef
February 5th, 2013
6:54 pm
jconservative
There is much truth in what you say. My problem here is that this administration won’t just man up and say that that’s what they’re doing. Instead they’re trying to have it both ways. If the rule of law is in the way, then go ahead and say that the national security is overriding the rule of law. But cut the horse sh*t and trying to make a t*rd smell like a rose…
josef
February 5th, 2013
6:55 pm
FROG
So, he was a target. And where is the evidence that made him one? Why is the administration sticking with the line he was in the wrong place at the wrong time?
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
6:56 pm
Liberal Hypocrisy….waterboard is torture and we have to close Gitmo….however, let’s just target andfvaporize instead.
http://redux.com/stream/item/767312/Epic-Facepalm-Mosaic
josef
February 5th, 2013
6:56 pm
GET REAL
Drop the partisanship for a minute, it’s the liberals who are bringing the question up…
Paul
February 5th, 2013
6:57 pm
150 comments and I’d hoped to read about a discussion of this ‘due process’ Obama critics keep going on about. Keep Up and Joe Hussein Mama hit a few point, but mostly to enlighten the ones who keep talking about it but don’t seem to know what it means in this context.
Not unexpected, I suppose.
Also haven’t seen any takers on transferring Executive Branch authority to the Judicial Branch.
Oh well, I’ll keep reading.
TBS
February 5th, 2013
7:00 pm
“But cut the horse sh*t and trying to make a t*rd smell like a rose…”
You know we do not have many forthright politicians in DC when it comes to issues of this magnitude.
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
7:01 pm
Paul
I’d say don’t waste your time, but I’m sure you already know that.
josef
February 5th, 2013
7:03 pm
TBS
Which is why I long for at least one thing from the ’50s…Harry Truman…
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
7:04 pm
The civilians in Dresden, Berlin, Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were “collateral damage”.
F. Sinkwich
February 5th, 2013
7:04 pm
“…voters “trusted the president 11 points more on the broader category of international affairs.””
We are doomed.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
7:05 pm
Well, one thing is for sure ………… the attack on Benghazi was NOT a terrorist attack so I SURE hope the president doesn’t use drones to go after any of those folks.
Right Jay ?
weetamoe
February 5th, 2013
7:07 pm
Conservative concerns are not serious: liberal concerns are serious.
Jay
February 5th, 2013
7:09 pm
“We are doomed.”
What do you mean by “we,” kemosabe?
keith
February 5th, 2013
7:09 pm
Just had to do something I really didnt want to do. I have been contributing to ST Judes for years. Unfortunately I had to send them a letter that my taxes was increased, my healthcare costs have increased and can no longer send them much needed funding. I hope that because mr bookmans guy has made these changes necessary that he will begin contributing to ST Judes. Likewise for other obama liberals. You should pledge to support the many charities but I doubt many of you can afford it either in the current tax and spend climate. So sorry ST Judes but as I stated in the letter, you can thank Dear President.
Dave
February 5th, 2013
7:09 pm
Paul, read Democracy and Distrust by John Ely. Might give you a better understanding of the importance of due process and why it isn’t a good idea to let people make life and death decisions about others without it unless it is absolutely necessary.
Jack ®
February 5th, 2013
7:11 pm
Bookman’s a little testy. He spent a lot of this piece and you all are not supposed to disagree with him.
Peace
February 5th, 2013
7:11 pm
Eric Hoder: “Our primary concern is to keep the American people safe.”
Unless you happen tp be a U.S. border agent. Or if you’re a U.S. Ambassador in Lybia. Stay alert if Obama and Holder have your back.
Jack ®
February 5th, 2013
7:12 pm
time
Vast Right Wing Conspiracy (aka "Knuckle-Dragger")
February 5th, 2013
7:12 pm
Another brain-dead line of reasoning, but that’s what makes you so entertaining, Jay. I have to give you credit, you always stick with the party line, comrade.
Drones seem to be the toy the imperial viceroy never got as a child, and if you are a power-mad clown to boot, its got to be heaven on earth.
Let me explain the difference between warrantless wiretaps and drones to you, Jay. You can not kill somebody with a warrantless wiretap. Y’all were just all over Bush, but this is OK. You democrats would certainly win the world mental gymnastics championships, if they were to be held (perhaps they do that at Davos).
Corey
February 5th, 2013
7:12 pm
@Dave
February 5th, 2013
5:31 pm
You are aware that any modern day POTUS has a plethora of experts at his disposal on any given subject, issue?
keith
February 5th, 2013
7:13 pm
We are doomed.”
What do you mean by “we,” kemosabe?
When the country collapses and the citizens are no longer getting their handout they will start rioting and looting just as in Greece. But mr bookman and his ilk despise the tools necessary to protect life and property in such a calamity. So good poit jay. YOU are doomed.
josef
February 5th, 2013
7:13 pm
keith
St Jude’s welcomes all contributions no matter how big or how small…you’re just a cheapsh*t looking for an excuse and trying to make a point. No boa for you!
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
7:14 pm
Eric Hoder: “Our primary concern is to keep the American people safe.”
Unless you happen tp be a U.S. border agent.
There’s always going to be a post that causes invocation of the Kamchak Corollary…
“If you’re gonna make sh*t up, then there’s no need to be half assed about it.”
–Kamchak Jefferson
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
7:15 pm
josef @ 7:13
Paul
February 5th, 2013
7:15 pm
Dave
Thanks, I’ll look it up.
But my point was hoping to hear from those who decry a lack of due process give a bit of the background of due process that formed the basis for their assertions.
If that last sentence struck you as funny, it was intended to.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 5th, 2013
7:15 pm
SoCo/Bro
indigo
February 5th, 2013
7:17 pm
keith – 7:09
Greed filled Business, eager to find any excuse to stop sharing healthcare costs with their employees, are responsible for these increased costs.
Tell St. Judes to complaing to Big Business.
keith
February 5th, 2013
7:18 pm
I remember when Bush first armed the drones. The left was howling. Bush wanted to be judge, jury and executioner. The evil oil baron from Texas was going to murder people without a trial, without a verdict of guilt. They were howling like mad dogs. And those werent even American citizens. Now their guy wants to kill Americans without a trial, without a verdict of guilt, and what does bookman do? Slobbers all over zero acting like obamas little errand boy spreading the gospel according to obama.
Jay
February 5th, 2013
7:18 pm
You just can’t wait for that day to get here, can you Keith?
I see you quiver with antici……………………………………………………………………pation.
keith
February 5th, 2013
7:20 pm
keith – 7:09
Greed filled Business, eager to find any excuse to stop sharing healthcare costs with their employees, are responsible for these increased costs.
Tell St. Judes to complaing to Big Business.
Dear leader made those changes necessary. Keep telling yourself that garbage, but before Obama I happily contributed to them. Big business was the same then as it is now. This change is what you voted for. St Judes and other charities will just have to pay for your hope and change crap.
indigo
February 5th, 2013
7:20 pm
keith
There are enough guns in America to support a large army.
You know perfectly well that Big Business has such a hold on our politicians that guns will never even begin to go away.
If we’re “doomed” it’s because, for way too long now, we’ve had the best Congress money can buy.
TBS
February 5th, 2013
7:21 pm
josef @ 7:13
My bet is the post you responded to was nothing but a bs lie.
Corey
February 5th, 2013
7:21 pm
@Hiram
February 5th, 2013
6:29 pm
@Jay
February 5th, 2013
6:42 pm
Play fair, you two. No hiting belown the belt.
DeborahinAthens
February 5th, 2013
7:22 pm
The poop is going to hit the fan when those homegrown terrorists like the survivalists get whacked! The government used its death power against the terrorists in Waco and Ruby Ridge. Frankly, I don’t see a problem. If Dubya the Dumb had done this instead of starting two senseless wars, we’ d all be a lot better off–especially the 5000 soldiers that have died and the thousands that have lost limbs.
F. Sinkwich
February 5th, 2013
7:22 pm
“What do you mean by “we,” kemosabe?”
America, Tonto.
O’Bozo’s foreign policy is just like his throw from the mound — limp-wristed.
We need to be respected…and feared…in order to be an effective world power. O’Bozo wants us to be loved. So we cave, grovel, bow, and kiss ass.
He wants to kill the military, and as a result, our freedom.
keith
February 5th, 2013
7:22 pm
You just can’t wait for that day to get here, can you Keith?
I see you quiver with antici……………………………………………………………………pation.
I hope it dont get here but my AK-47 will protect a whole lot better than your silly words of encouragement to the brain dead sheeple that buy into your crap.
Dave
February 5th, 2013
7:22 pm
Corey, that I do and I’m sure that presidents use them. I’ve got no problem with their decisions in situations that are time sensitive; but, when it isn’t necessary to do something now, this minute on the battle field, without all the legal wrangling, it seems to me to be a good idea to have a couple of sets of experts present the pros and cons and an uninvolved person, a judge, say yes or no.
barking frog
February 5th, 2013
7:22 pm
josef
he may have been designated a target but later defined as collateral
damage due to not meeting the definition of a target.
josef
February 5th, 2013
7:23 pm
TBS
I would agree with that, too…
TaxPayer
February 5th, 2013
7:23 pm
Cons are such drones.
josef
February 5th, 2013
7:23 pm
FROG
Which makes it even worse…
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
7:24 pm
Jay
I think this is the “we” that they’re saying is doomed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_CAs3q7G48
After all, it’s all fun and games until the flying monkeys attack.
keith
February 5th, 2013
7:25 pm
The poop is going to hit the fan when those homegrown terrorists like the survivalists get whacked! The government used its death power against the terrorists in Waco and Ruby Ridge.
Terrorists at Ruby Ridge?
In August 1995, the US government avoided trial on a civil lawsuit filed by the Weavers, by awarding the three surviving daughters $1,000,000 each, and Randy Weaver $100,000 over the deaths of Sammy and Vicki Weaver. The attorney for Kevin Harris pressed Harris’ civil suit for damages, although federal officials vowed they would never pay someone who had killed a U.S. Marshal (Harris had been acquitted by a jury trial on grounds of self-defense). In September 2000 after persistent appeals, Harris was awarded a $380,000 settlement from the government.[
TaxPayer
February 5th, 2013
7:25 pm
Does the 2nd amendment give US citizens the right to bear arms capable of taking out a drone.
F. Sinkwich
February 5th, 2013
7:28 pm
“Dubya the Dumb had done this instead of starting two senseless wars, we’ d all be a lot better off–especially the 5000 soldiers that have died and the thousands that have lost limbs.”
But Debbie luvs herself some LBJ! 58,000 on a wall.
Debbie the Doofuss is, well, sad.
keith
February 5th, 2013
7:28 pm
Does the 2nd amendment give US citizens the right to bear arms capable of taking out a drone.
Hell yea
USA Patriot
February 5th, 2013
7:28 pm
This is kinda funny, as a bystander…….whoa…..is that a drone? Watching the liberals/progressives/democrats try to defend this position of the POTUS (POS)! Hysterical!
indigo
February 5th, 2013
7:29 pm
Keith
Yes, I’m just sure your AK-47 will be a big help against artillery and JADAM’s, right sport model?
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
7:29 pm
I hope it dont get here but my AK-47 will protect a whole lot better than your silly words of encouragement to the brain dead sheeple that buy into your crap.
Unless your “AK-47″ was imported pre-automatic weapon ban and you possess a Class III license, you should stop lying now. Even td will tell you that claiming ownership of such a gun is pretty much guaranteed to be a lie. If anything, you own a semi-automatic replica of that gun. The AK-47, however, is a fully automatic, Russian military rifle and is very unlikely to be legally owned here in the US.
So, either you’re lying or you’re illegally possessing a gun. Which is it?
barking frog
February 5th, 2013
7:30 pm
josef
possibly, but the consequences of birth can be intertwined with
the consequences of war, regrettable but sometimes unavoidable..
TaxPayer
February 5th, 2013
7:32 pm
I wonder if poor keith has priced some of the weaponry needed to defend oneself against drones and fighter jets and helicopters and tanks and such. And on top of that, WalMart’s shipping fees have got to be a game buster.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
7:32 pm
Brosephus:
Some AK-47’s are semi-auto and some are fully-auto just like AR-15’s.
Surely (and don’t call me Shirley) you know that !
TBS
February 5th, 2013
7:32 pm
Bro
Do you really have to ask after reading his other posts?
keith
February 5th, 2013
7:33 pm
Unless your “AK-47″ was imported pre-automatic weapon ban and you possess a Class III license, you should stop lying now. Even td will tell you that claiming ownership of such a gun is pretty much guaranteed to be a lie. If anything, you own a semi-automatic replica of that gun. The AK-47, however, is a fully automatic, Russian military rifle and is very unlikely to be legally owned here in the US.
So, either you’re lying or you’re illegally possessing a gun. Which is it?
Another liberal passing off bogus info. you and jay should room together.
CLASS IN SESSION:
Arsenal is a company in Las Vegas NV that imports receivers from Bulgaria. They put American furniture on the weapon thus making it completely legal. Go to their website, You can buy an Arsenal AK-47 right now, COMPLETELY LEGAL there nimrod.
CLASS DISMISSED.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
7:33 pm
There are thousands of legally owned AK-47’s here in the U.S. (semi-auto).
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
7:34 pm
keith @ 7:33
And you would be correct.
TBS
February 5th, 2013
7:34 pm
Legal ownership of the AK-47 varies by state, county, city, and local laws and ordinances. Persons interested in owning one of these types of rifles are strongly encouraged to research the laws where they reside or plan to buy, transport, keep, and use the weapon. Manufacturing the AK-47 for civilian use is prohibited.
The 1989 Semi-Automatic Rifle Import Ban (18 USC 925(d)(3)) and the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban specifically banned the AK-47 by name. Many other such weapons (including obvious clones of AK-47’s) manufactured after 1994 had to be modified (e.g. removal of barrel threading, bayonet lug and folding stock). This ban expired on September 13, 2004, as part of the law’s sunset provision. The import of rifles with certain features are still banned. However, certain states such as California, New York, New Jersey and Massachusetts have specific restrictions with some mentioning AK-pattern firearms by name.
Private ownership of AK-47 rifles was regulated by the National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934. The Gun Control Act of 1968 ceased the import of foreign-manufactured fully automatic firearms for civilian sales and possession. The ATF enforced a provision banning importation of small arms from Communist Bloc nations without a trade agreement with the United States. This ban is still enforced with the former Soviet Union republics and post-Communist Eastern European nations without USA trade agreements. A few Communist nations e.g. China and the former Yugoslavia have trade agreements with the United States.
In 1986, an amendment called the Firearm Owners Protection Act stopped all domestic manufacturing of fully automatic weapons for civilian use. Fully automatic weapons are still manufactured in the US for military and law enforcement use. However, automatic firearms manufactured domestically prior to 1986 or imported prior to 1968 may be transferred between civilians in accordance with federal, state and local law. A number of Soviet and PRC rifles were brought into the U.S. during the mid-1960s, when returning Vietnam veterans brought them home after capture from enemy troops. Some of these were properly registered during the amnesty period under the 1968 NFA law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_the_AK-47
keith
February 5th, 2013
7:35 pm
Liberals are very good at making themselves look stupid.
комисса́р (Occupation)
February 5th, 2013
7:36 pm
keith: “Liberals are very good at making themselves look stupid.”
You’re still big on that word “liberals”. Obviously very, very important to you.
josef
February 5th, 2013
7:37 pm
BROSEPHUS
@ 7:24
and FROG
@ 7:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz50_MWWKwg
keith
February 5th, 2013
7:39 pm
Look at all those illegal AK-47s for sale on Gunbroker. Better call the ATFE. LOL
http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Keywords=arsenal+ak-47
USA Patriot
February 5th, 2013
7:39 pm
Hey, TurnerBroadcastingSystem – Check w/ Chicago – apparently, the “boys” don’t pay attention to “laws”. Just sayin’. Carry on!
Peace
February 5th, 2013
7:39 pm
Bro @ 7:14:
There’s always going to be a post that causes invocation of the …
Habeeb Akandew question.
“I wonder if you can taste the bullsh*t that’s coming out of your mouth.”
― Habeeb Akandew
keith
February 5th, 2013
7:42 pm
Brosephus dont bother going to gunbroker. You couldnt afford one. Thanks to dear leader my AK-47 is worth 4 times what I paid for it.
keith
February 5th, 2013
7:42 pm
Brosephus dont bother going to gunbroker. You couldnt afford one. Thanks to dear leader my AK-47 is worth 4 times what I paid for it.
keith
February 5th, 2013
7:42 pm
Brosephus dont bother going to gunbroker. You couldnt afford one. Thanks to dear leader my AK-47 is worth 4 times what I paid for it.
Thomas Heyward Jr
February 5th, 2013
7:43 pm
“That aside, here’s the most basic problem with the criticisms raised by Sirota, Greenwald and others: What is the cure?”
.
Non aggression.
.
Bookman’s conscious may contort….(hopefully he still has one after Obama)………but…..the decent people have NOT blood on their hands.
.
This Bush/Obama R&D Washington Party’s travesty is NOT in the decent Americans name.
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
7:43 pm
Some AK-47’s are semi-auto and some are fully-auto just like AR-15’s.
Surely (and don’t call me Shirley) you know that !
The AK-47, known in Russia as Автомат Калашникова or Avtomat Kalashnikova, was a select fire rifle built in Russia during WWII. Production of that rifle ceased in 1959. Anything built after that is a copycat or replica. Surely you know that too, right? The A in AK stood for automatic, hence the reason Keith does not own a true AK-47.
—————
Keith
If your “AK-47″ was built by Arsenal in Las Vegas with a receiver imported from Bulgaria, you have been effectively hoodwinked if you consider your rifle an AK-47. It is a replica AK-47, but it is not an AK-47. In your attempt to claim “liberals” are stupid, you fail to realize that
#1 I’m not a “liberal”.
#2 I probably know just as much, if not more, about guns, the history of guns, and where you can get guns.
So take your fake AK-47 owning ass somewhere else, as your lies might impress others, but I am quite knowledgable and you don’t impress me at all. When you get your hands on a true AK-47 that was built by the original manufacturer and designed by Mikhail Kalashnikov, come talk to me.
TBS
February 5th, 2013
7:44 pm
Apparently looking stupid is not confined to being a “liberal”
See post about St Judes as clear evidence that there are no monopolies on stupid.
Keith, that is unless you are a “liberal”
josef
February 5th, 2013
7:44 pm
Looks like the c*ck hath thrice crowed…
JamVet
February 5th, 2013
7:44 pm
I’m not sure about doomed, but I would contend that the GOP has suffered some very major wounds. Most, self inflicted.
Time will tell if they are mortal or not. But it certainly is not looking very good for them these days…
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 5th, 2013
7:45 pm
When you get your hands on a true AK-47 that was built by the original manufacturer and designed by Mikhail Kalashnikov, come talk to me.
We’ll have $39 flights to the moon first.
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
7:45 pm
Keith
Claiming your Arsenal replica is an AK-47 is just like pulling up to the Cheetah in this and telling one of the strippers you own a Ferrari.
http://www.recipeapart.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/ferrari-smart-car.jpg
keith
February 5th, 2013
7:46 pm
you would look alot better if you just admitted you were wrong instead of getting agree brosephus. now calm down there son.
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
7:46 pm
Kam
keith
February 5th, 2013
7:47 pm
OK so if AK-47s are illegal whats your problem? We dont need a gun ban if they are already illegal. lol which is it? you want to ban something already banned? come on son use your brain.
TBS
February 5th, 2013
7:48 pm
Bro @ 7:45
Too funny
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
7:48 pm
you would look alot better if you just admitted you were wrong instead of getting agree brosephus.
????
Here’s something you might be interested in buying along with knock off rifles…
http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/imagebuzz/web04/2011/1/3/17/samuel-l-jackson-teaches-english-3633-1294092443-0.jpg
keith
February 5th, 2013
7:50 pm
it would take 4 years of your welfare checks to afford the magazine that goes in my AK-47. Or to you liberal nitwits, the clip. LOL
josef
February 5th, 2013
7:51 pm
BROSEPHUS
@ 7:48
TBS
February 5th, 2013
7:51 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCtSa0exAH0
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
7:52 pm
OK so if AK-47s are illegal whats your problem? We dont need a gun ban if they are already illegal. lol which is it? you want to ban something already banned? come on son use your brain.
Huh? I think Capt. Picard and Capt. Kirk both just pissed themselves at watching how fast your warp drive moves your goalposts. Where did the gun ban idea come from? Who mentioned a gun ban? Why are you trying to change the subject from your replica guns?
keith
February 5th, 2013
7:52 pm
Why is it so difficult for leftwing loons to admit they are wrong? When they get busted for being stupid they go into a rage. Much easier for brosephus to just apologize, admit he was in error and move on.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 5th, 2013
7:53 pm
It was just the other day while I was standing in line at Whole Foods behind this huge __________ lady with three shopping carts filled with AK-47 magazines and she was paying for them with (gasp!) food stamps.
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
7:54 pm
Ak-47 semi v. 12 guage semi shotgun inside a dwelling? What are the odds?
keith
February 5th, 2013
7:54 pm
your idiot leader has been talking about bans. Where have you been? Jeez. Get out from under your rock more. Educate yourself son.
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
7:54 pm
it would take 4 years of your welfare checks to afford the magazine that goes in my AK-47.
Your gun must be one real cheap POS then. I don’t get welfare checks, so any gun that shoots with a magazine that doesn’t cost anything is either imaginary or a POS. If you’re really that bad off for a gun, I know where you can buy a few.
TBS
February 5th, 2013
7:54 pm
Bro
His Folex he bought in Chinatown is real as well…………….
keith
February 5th, 2013
7:55 pm
Ak-47 semi v. 12 guage semi shotgun inside a dwelling? What are the odds?
I have a Benelli M-4 too. Im sure the idiots will want to ban it too.
Thomas Heyward Jr
February 5th, 2013
7:56 pm
The Bookmans of the world are fine with state assascination.
To them……..it is God smoting.
.
It will not be long until men like Jimmy Stewart…………………are declared Al-Queda…….or whatever de jour enemy of the State.
.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/131886.html
josef
February 5th, 2013
7:57 pm
BROSEPHUS
Since both his magazine and your welfare checks are the product of a fevered imagination, I’d say its a moot point…
And is it just me, or does Keith sound like Reporter’s b*stid offspring?
keith
February 5th, 2013
7:57 pm
Your gun must be one real cheap POS then. I don’t get welfare checks, so any gun that shoots with a magazine that doesn’t cost anything is either imaginary or a POS. If you’re really that bad off for a gun, I know where you can buy a few.
Then you should go to a few of those places and let them educate you on firearms. Im getting tired of it.
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
7:58 pm
your idiot leader has been talking about bans.
What??? I don’t see a poster here named “idiot leader”. Care to show where the post talking about bans originated? Geez, you would think that such a learned conservative as yourself would be able to stick to one topic instead of posting like a caffeine injected squirrel on the keyboard.
TaxPayer
February 5th, 2013
7:59 pm
The blog has itself a real entertainer in keith.
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
7:59 pm
More money for research and education on mental health issues. And ban guns that can fire more than thirty rounds without a reload
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
7:59 pm
TBS
I figured him to be one wearing an Infecta.
—————
And is it just me, or does Keith sound like Reporter’s b*stid offspring?
You change b*stid to spastic and I’m with you 100% there bro.
moonbat betty
February 5th, 2013
8:00 pm
Git r done.
now that obama is faced with the tough questions, he does the right thing.
I don’t care if the liberal whiners agree now.
At least they admit their mistakes.
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
8:00 pm
Or ban guns that fire more than 20 rounds without a reload
Soothsayer
February 5th, 2013
8:00 pm
I don’t know about the rest of you but my AK-47 keeps me warm in bed at night. Or is it the other way around?
I cain’t imagine how this here Keith feller done took over the blog with all this here AK-47 talk. Seems like a “tea party” in a tea pot to me. But then again, what do I know.
As far as the original topic is concerned, I’m all in favor of “dronin’” them terrists to death. Just like I make a reg’lar practice of stomping on ain’t hills ’til all them ain’ts go away.
‘Course, the last time I tried it, it didn’t turn out so well.
keith
February 5th, 2013
8:01 pm
Actually Arsenal is one of the finest AK-47s in the world. If you knew anything about firearms you would know that instead of needing me to enlighten you. http://www.ar15.com has a forum dedicated to AK-47s as well. You really could learn alot from them’
http://www.ar15.com/forums/b/4_AK_47.html
Go there and learn. I will give you a test in the morning.
James
February 5th, 2013
8:02 pm
Let’s see if we can follow Jay’s logic.
It was wrong to water board foreign terrorist to obtain intell.
However it is OK to kill Americans who are suspected of terrorism.
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
8:02 pm
Admitting mistakes is a sign of weakness , Real men get angry and change the subject.
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
8:03 pm
Then you should go to a few of those places and let them educate you on firearms. Im getting tired of it.
You haven’t educated me on jack sh*t. I’ve probably shot more rounds in the past year than you have shot in your entire life. I work in law enforcement dumbass, and I have to qualify 4 times a year. Because of my position, I have to qualify with handgun, shotgun, and rifle. Not only that, I’ve been put on assignment with different agencies based solely on my marksmanship skills.
Keep dreaming that you’re educating me on anything. You might wanna worry about educating yourself first. Anybody that claims to own an AK-47 and don’t even know the history of that rifle likely didn’t graduate high school. Then again, comparing you to a high school dropout is demeaning to the dropout.
keith
February 5th, 2013
8:04 pm
Let’s see if we can follow Jay’s logic.
It was wrong to water board foreign terrorist to obtain intell.
However it is OK to kill Americans who are suspected of terrorism.
They dont even have to be suspected of terrorism. Just affiliated with someone who is. And who decides what affiliation means? dear leader zero
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
8:04 pm
Oscar
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
8:04 pm
Drones provide instant death without pain or other harmful side effects. No torture involved.
keith
February 5th, 2013
8:05 pm
You haven’t educated me on jack sh*t. I’ve probably shot more rounds in the past year than you have shot in your entire life. I work in law enforcement dumbass, and I have to qualify 4 times a year. Because of my position, I have to qualify with handgun, shotgun, and rifle. Not only that, I’ve been put on assignment with different agencies based solely on my marksmanship skills.
Keep dreaming that you’re educating me on anything. You might wanna worry about educating yourself first. Anybody that claims to own an AK-47 and don’t even know the history of that rifle likely didn’t graduate high school. Then again, comparing you to a high school dropout is demeaning to the dropout.
the above is an irate rant. Anyone that allows posters on here to get to them like this is in need of a real life. LOL I was simply trying to help the boy, not upset him.
Moderate Line
February 5th, 2013
8:06 pm
From the ACLU:
The Obama administration apparently continues to think that they have legal authority under [the post-9/11 authorization for use of military force]. Personally, I think and have been writing, that it is questionable, because that authorization allows use of force against the people who committed or planned or harbored those who committed or planned 9/11, and so 11 years later, it’s not at all clear that the drone strikes against you know, people in Pakistan or Yemen or Somalia, young men who were in their 20s, who twelve years ago might have been 8 or 9 years old, were in fact part of the same organization that planned 9/11. So, the Obama administration continues to say that they have that authority under congressional authorization, but I think it’s a fair question as to whether they really do. What we’re really seeing…[is] growing international outrage about whether drone strikes are lawful under international law. Are they infringing on the sovereignty of other countries when we drop drones in other countries? Do they violate principles of international human rights law to kill a particular individual?
+++++
Rightwing troll
February 5th, 2013
8:07 pm
I say if you slither off to the mid-east and plot against your country openly, you deserve what u get. I’d rather listen to liberals and conservatives whine than see Amercan soldiers die. Treason is treason and if you make threats, we have to assume you intend to follow thru with them. Kinda like you don’t point a gun at someone, unless you intend to use it.
комиссар (Occupation)
February 5th, 2013
8:07 pm
What’s striking about Jay Bookman’s post title is not that it’s right or wrong, but the way he flatly assumes that Obama has to be either “right” or “wrong” about the justification for his drones program, with no other possibility for anything in between.
It would evidently take quite a lot for Jay to say something that doesn’t neatly fall into either category, such as for example, that, say, the drone program puts us into murky ethical waters where maybe it’s going to be even harder to judge what course of action and what policy is right and what is wrong. Maybe we will have to do things in the name of security that will compromise us ethically as a nation. But to take such steps doesn’t mean that one is necessarily ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. But it may mean that we are in a very gray area, ethically speaking.
But we Americans don’t do ‘gray’ very well, do we? Maybe that’s part of the issue.
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
8:07 pm
Some things – policies – orders – should not be put in writing.
If you are caught, the agency will disavow any knowlege of your mission
keith
February 5th, 2013
8:08 pm
Drones provide instant death without pain or other harmful side effects. No torture involved
Before zero decides to kill American citizens without a trial or verdict of guilt he would need to amend the Constitution. You do know about the Constitution dont you? That little thing known as the law of the land. So if zero goes thru with his plans without amending the Constitution he is no better than the people he wants to kill.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
February 5th, 2013
8:09 pm
U.S. Rep. Paul Broun, an Athens Republican, is the first out of the gate in the race to succeed retiring U.S. Sen. Saxby Chambliss.
We’re doomed I tell ya!
JohnnyReb
February 5th, 2013
8:10 pm
In no case is it OK for our Country to take the life of a US Citizen without due process.
It is too slippery a slope.
The Obama decision is truly unbelieveable. His administration wanted to give combatants the same court and due process privileges as US Citizens by trying their case in US Court. That was shut down. Now they want to kill US Citizens without due process. It must also be shut down.
Doggone/GA
February 5th, 2013
8:10 pm
“I cain’t imagine how this here Keith feller done took over the blog with all this here AK-47 talk.”
I think he’s an alumni of the “Wow” school of blogging
Thomas Heyward Jr
February 5th, 2013
8:10 pm
For more comic relief, one only has to wait until Jeb Bush ascends the throne in 2016.
.
They’ll plug Cheney back up………………and give him “drone rights”.
.
I can hear Bookman’s and Mathews’ howls now.
.
lol
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
8:11 pm
Ignoring the constitution worked for Lincoln.
....seriously damage the security of this country???
February 5th, 2013
8:11 pm
and where is the same concern about enforcing our immigration laws and securing our borders????
crickets…..
keith
February 5th, 2013
8:11 pm
U.S. Rep. Paul Broun, an Athens Republican, is the first out of the gate in the race to succeed retiring U.S. Sen. Saxby Chambliss.
We’re doomed I tell ya!
i hope democrats run thurbert baker. hes a guaranteed loser.
Paul
February 5th, 2013
8:12 pm
Jay
If you want to convince some Senators that we really should have universal background checks and mental health checks before someone can buy a gun, just forward them this thread.
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
8:12 pm
I thoutht killing people when necessary was what the CIA did. With guns, knives. whatever. So now they are using drones.
keith
February 5th, 2013
8:12 pm
Ignoring the constitution worked for Lincoln.
Did it? I didnt think things ended very well for him.
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
8:13 pm
Actually Arsenal is one of the finest AK-47s in the world. If you knew anything about firearms you would know that instead of needing me to enlighten you.
Watch this, I can post links from pro-gun sites too. Even better than that, they actually know the difference between your faux AK and the true AK.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-391780.html
Then, there’s this listing for an “AK47 Rifle For Sale Original Russian Red Style” where, when you actually read the fine print in the description, it says: “AKM 47 Russian Red Style Rifle, AK RRS 762 x 39 semi auto,these are beautiful AK 47 rifles designed to closley resemble the original Russian Red Style rifles.”
http://www.gunsamerica.com/907209472/AK47+Rifle+For+Sale+Original+Russian+Red+Style.htm
“
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
8:13 pm
thought
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
February 5th, 2013
8:13 pm
JAY
So we trusted Bush when weapons of mass destruction were in Iraq. Why should we trust this guy that evidence exists to justify and evidence exists that we actually got a bad guy?
This is BS..Also, that mouthpiece Carney was referring to irrefutable evidence that Al Queda is constantly plotting to attack us..how do we know? What constitutes and attack?
Finally that rube Carney also suggested that in the “event of war”..to justify these powers…did we declare war on a handful of cowards?
In Pakistan, we kill 49 innocents to every 1 bad guy we get. What do you suppose that number is in the other nations over there?
This is an atrocious power to offer that offers no accountability to us to justify killings..Why can’t they advertise the number of innocents killed by each strike?
JohnnyReb
February 5th, 2013
8:13 pm
I could write a book on this – before the electionl, Obama wanted citizens to believe Al Qaeda was all but wiped off the map.
Now, they want citizen approval of killing US Citizens who are members of Al Qaeda without due process.
When will responsible people on the Left wake up and realize just who they support. He continuously overreaches authority. Ignores enforcement of laws to which he does not agree. And now wants to be judge and jury.
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
8:14 pm
Lincoln’s side won the war . He was willing to give his life for that.
TaxPayer
February 5th, 2013
8:14 pm
keith,
Do yourself a favor and get your water tested. Start with lead, mercury, PCB, benzene…
keith
February 5th, 2013
8:15 pm
I thoutht killing people when necessary was what the CIA did. With guns, knives. whatever. So now they are using drones
you need to borrow brocephus’ dictionary. We are now referring to American citizens with CONSTITUTIONALLY protected right. If you give obama this then when theres a GOP President, and there will be one, you will be sorry.
keith
February 5th, 2013
8:16 pm
Lincoln was a great REPUBLICAN President. Democrats will NEVER have his equal.
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
8:16 pm
Johnny – after the election, the cia showed him a new map. thnings do hange
TaxPayer
February 5th, 2013
8:16 pm
Now, they want citizen approval of killing US Citizens who are members of Al Qaeda without due process.
Hardly. I heard that our drones have recognition software preventing them from firing on any US citizen-terrorist that has not been informed of his 2nd amendment rights.
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
February 5th, 2013
8:16 pm
US Citizens are no different IMO than innocent civilians of other nations. Just like other meaningless fights we’ve engaged, we will leave the area with geometrically more US hatred than before we arrived….getting to be a common thread..
Great strategy..if we find one guy who allegedly conspires to hurt americans, it is ok to kill 50 innocents in the process as long as one american life is saved…
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
8:17 pm
Bro = see what I mean. See Keith at8:16
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
8:18 pm
keith
You haven’t upset me at all. Seems that one has to speak to you as though they’re scolding a child in order for something to penetrate that cinder block of a skull that you have.
http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=465
Manufacture
Let’s face it, the days of importing a complete, functioning AK-47 into the US are over. Those days ended on March 14, 1989 when President G. H.W. Bush created an Executive Order banning the import of 43 different semi-automatic rifles. This is where the term “pre-ban” started and is still in use almost 20 years later. If you want one of these pre-ban rifles, by all means get one. The thing to keep in mind is they cost-a-plenty. We are talking in the realm of $1,000 to $2,000 or higher for rare variants. That’s great if you have the money. You can be assured of getting a quality rifle if you buy a Norinco, Polytech, Valmet, Maadi, Hungarian, Bulgarian, Yugoslavian, or any other pre-ban, imported AK- 47. You may find yourself owning a rifle so nice that you will be afraid to shoot it! Especially one that is still new in box (NIB). Don’t be afraid to shoot it unless you just want to keep it for posterity’s sake or as an investment which is sure to appeciate in value. But that is not what this article is focusing on, we are looking at buying a shooter.
If you read further on, they explain how people, such as yourself, get your AK by importing parts that have been altered to get by US laws. In essence, your AK is a piecemeal knock off rifle. As I stated almost an hour ago, unless your gun is pre-ban, you have a knock off.
Now, I have to go and give my own child a bath. I’ve spent more than enough time with someone else’s child.
Catch y’all later…
keith
February 5th, 2013
8:18 pm
brocephus you are an angry young man. take your meds and go to bed. i dont want you to harm yourself over this petty stuff. please calm down son.
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
8:18 pm
Seems like it is still an argument betweem those who like the President and those who do not.
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
8:19 pm
Oscar
Yep!!!! I completely understand what you said, and you will not get an attempt from me to argue that you’re wrong.
Soothsayer
February 5th, 2013
8:19 pm
O o o o o h K
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
February 5th, 2013
8:20 pm
For all the Bush bashing, BO is following Bush’s tactics pretty close to the letter…perhaps he learned some things that changed his mind?
Given his arrogance, it must be very difficult to tacitly admit that Bush and Cheney actually had some great ideas..
keith
February 5th, 2013
8:21 pm
i so love it when liberals try to enlist other liberals to join their side in a debate.
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
8:21 pm
I will wait to get an AK 15 after the bubble brusst. Prices too high now.
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
8:21 pm
brocephus you are an angry young man.
Yeah, right…. Coming from the blog’s version of a “Ritalin kid”, I seriously doubt that nobody here beyond yourself actually believes a word that you say. You can’t even stay on one topic more than 5 minutes. I know speed junkies that can focus better than you.
Instead of trying to jump into every conversation to prove how ignorant you are, why not focus on actually learning something about one or two topics and only chiming in when those are brought up? Just a suggestion for you…
TBS
February 5th, 2013
8:22 pm
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=shelby+cobra+replica
If I purchase one of these cars, do I now own a Shelby Cobra?
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
8:23 pm
TBS
Using keith’s logic, I’d say yeah….
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
February 5th, 2013
8:24 pm
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
8:18 pm
Nothing can be further from the truth. Wait til you get a load of the division that may arise from the far left who have thought Guantanomo was the root of all evil…
Of course despite sentiment to the contrary, many liberals will simply study the talking points and all the sudden get completely comfortable with indiscriminant death from the sky..
keith
February 5th, 2013
8:25 pm
The kid is trying to say if you modify an AK-47 to legally import it into the country it stops being an AK-47. Tell that crap to the Feinstein crowd that keep waving them around screaming AK-47s kill.
I guess I would call it a modified AK-47. Still an AK-47 regardless. Feinstein would be all over brocephus and his stupidity.
barking frog
February 5th, 2013
8:25 pm
Johnny Reb
In no case is it OK for our Country to take the life of a US Citizen without due process
………………………………………………………………
How many ‘Johnny Rebs’ were killed by US soldiers without due process ?
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
February 5th, 2013
8:25 pm
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
8:21 pm
Gee BRO, I didn’t realize you were such an angry man:-)
This topic makes me angry, disappointed, ashamed and mislead.
Soothsayer
February 5th, 2013
8:25 pm
BTW, for those with the intestinal fortitude, this is a great time to short the market. It doesn’t really matter which one: DJIA, S&P, FTSE, DAX. They’re all ready to tumble. They’ve been defying gravity much too long now. You heard it here first.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 5th, 2013
8:27 pm
This topic makes me angry, disappointed, ashamed and mislead.
Exactly like a guest on the Jerry Springer show.
TBS
February 5th, 2013
8:27 pm
Sooth
Not sure how far it will go down, but a correction is probably due.
keith
February 5th, 2013
8:28 pm
TBS, Cant you read? Brocephus just posted they modify AK-47s to import them here. He didnt say they are copying them, he said they modify them. BIG DIFFERENCE. If you have a manual transmission in a Cobra and you modify it to automatic its STILL a Cobra. Get it now son?
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
February 5th, 2013
8:28 pm
Soothsayer
February 5th, 2013
8:25 pm
Yup..I bet the crooks at Goldman Sachs are busy shorting the very products they sell clients…deja vous…probably making sure politicians of all flavors are getting a taste as well..
Soothsayer
February 5th, 2013
8:28 pm
I would also be LONG gold right now. Great contrarian play. They can’t short it forever. I’m betting $2,500 by mid-year. $3,000 by year end.
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
February 5th, 2013
8:30 pm
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 5th, 2013
8:27 pm
Wow, there’s Kamchak with something more brilliant to say. You still working on the Philosophy textbook? Hope that is going along nicely.
moonbat betty
February 5th, 2013
8:30 pm
Sooth,
you should go to Vegas for March Madness.
BIG $$.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
February 5th, 2013
8:31 pm
In no case is it OK for our Country to take the life of a US Citizen without due process
But locking US Citizens away without trial or due process for any number of years or even life is okay with the cons.
keith
February 5th, 2013
8:33 pm
I guess if brocephus and oscar think that if you have a manual transmission in a Plymouth Cuda, modify it by installing an automatic transmission it ceases to being a Cuda. What logic. LMAO.
Liberals language for their 47%
February 5th, 2013
8:33 pm
Let’s see — Obama rebranded the “war on terror” phrase to “Overseas Contingency Operations” then to “Countering Violent Extremism”; “taxes” became “revenues”; “tax increases” became “revenue positive”; “increase taxes on the rich” became “letting the Bush tax cuts expire”; “government spending” became “investing”; “earmarks” and “pork-barrel spending” became “congressionally directed spending”; “Stimulus” became “job creation”; etc…and now….
…wait for it….
“I hope no one uses the term illegal immigrants here today. Our citizens are not — the people in this country are not illegal. They are are out of status. They are new Americans that are immigrants,” said Rep. John Conyers Jr., Michigan Democrat.
Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2013/feb/5/top-democrat-warns-against-using-term-illegal-immi/#ixzz2K4ulmZRi
moonbat betty
February 5th, 2013
8:34 pm
In no case is it OK for our Country to take the life of a US Citizen without due process,
that’s why we all need as chip in our head.
So they can identify us.
keith
February 5th, 2013
8:34 pm
can you just imagine oscar and brocephus going to barret jackson? they would get run off.
Paul
February 5th, 2013
8:35 pm
Season premier of Smash on tonight.
Some of you will feel better watching that than reading this.
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
February 5th, 2013
8:37 pm
Seems that the WH is regretting that whole sequester thingy. He wants to avoid cuts in our military now that he has had a chance to flex his 700 bln dollar toy…
Just itching, like Bush, to shoot off some of those toys in the name of peace and national security…Al Queda is about as much threat to our shores and the WMD’s in Iraq…
Thomas Heyward Jr
February 5th, 2013
8:40 pm
BUT………..and in closing,
considering the way that Obama throws a baseball…..AND…………considering progressives in general…………I CAN understand how a pimply-faced sixteen year old AMERICAN BOY (searching for his Pa) could be percieved as a Threat.
.
Not a National security threat…………but just a threat.
.
It’s a shame he was murdered, but MY conscious is clear.
.
Sorry Obama-Bots.
Maybe one day……….yours will be too.
.
Liberals language for their 47% @8:33
February 5th, 2013
8:45 pm
Drat — I’m missed the PC warm and fuzzy term from the stellar liberal universities —
Academics, searching for a more neutral term, have recently begun using “unauthorized migrants” as their phrase of choice.
Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2013/feb/5/top-democrat-warns-against-using-term-illegal-immi/#ixzz2K4xlwsH4
Moderate Line
February 5th, 2013
8:48 pm
Jay
February 5th, 2013
5:19 pm
“Keep in mind he was in custody twice after Ft. Hood. Once in the US and once in Yemen.”
Do you have a cite for that claim, Moderate? The Fort Hood shooting was 2009; my understanding is al Alwaki went underground in 2006-07.
+++++
My error. He was detained in in 2002 in the US and released in Yemen in 2007.
However, your statements concerning Ft Hood seem to imply he was involved.
From the NYTimes:
The officials said the Departments of Defense and Justice had decided Major Hasan would be prosecuted in a military court, an indication that investigators believe he acted alone. Government lawyers had said his case might be tried in civilian court if he were believed to have conspired with nonmilitary defendants.
In a statement, the Federal Bureau of Investigation said, “At this point, there is no information to indicate Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan had any co-conspirators or was part of a broader terrorist plot.” The statement concluded that “because the content of the communications was explainable by his research and nothing else was found,” investigators decided “that Major Hasan was not involved in terrorist activities or terrorist planning.”
The more I read the more interesting this gets.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
8:52 pm
keith:
“The kid is trying to say if you modify an AK-47 to legally import it into the country it stops being an AK-47. Tell that crap to the Feinstein crowd that keep waving them around screaming AK-47s kill.
I guess I would call it a modified AK-47. Still an AK-47 regardless. Feinstein would be all over brocephus and his stupidity.”
THANK YOU …………. except my law enforcement brother in arms is not “stupid” ……… he’s just playing the sematics game to save face.
bman.
February 5th, 2013
8:52 pm
i guess it’s probably some top-secret thing, but i wonder how many drones the U.S. has. 100’s? 1000’s?
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
8:53 pm
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/
Step right up and “backorder” your AK-47 semi-auto assault rifle !!!
Curious Observer
February 5th, 2013
8:54 pm
I am convinced that if Jesus Christ returned to earth in all His glory and walked hand-in-hand with Obama, the hard-core Republicans here would label both as extreme liberals unworthy of any respect.
Recon 0311 2533
February 5th, 2013
8:57 pm
Well we have the stupids who’re sooo against enhanced interrogations and now accept evaporating U.S. citizens with hell fire drone hits. Yes,stupids I believe wherever we identify those who wish to do harm to America we must neutralize them, however, if they possess actionable intelligence we should make every effort to capture and extract whatever intel they have by any means.
Recon 0311 2533
February 5th, 2013
9:03 pm
Curious Observer, must be curiously hallucinating.
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
9:04 pm
keith
You just can’t leave well enough alone, huh? Why don’t you go import a Ferrari engine, put it in a Ford Festiva, and brag to some car collectors about your new bad assed Ferrari. Basically, what you own is a modified AK-47 receiver with some other aftermarket parts bolted on to look like a real AK. If it helps you to sleep at night by calling your rifle an AK, then don’t let me take the wind out of your sail.
You claim that I’m angry, yet you can’t stop trying to defend yourself long after I left to give my child a bath. If you knew you were right and I was wrong, you wouldn’t feel the need to defend yourself in my absence. You can outwardly lie, but your subconscious mind won’t allow you to believe the lies.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 5th, 2013
9:06 pm
Let’s see — Obama rebranded the…
Frank Luntz says, “What?”
Keep Up the Good Fight!
February 5th, 2013
9:12 pm
Old man yells “stupids” at clouds. His diaper change at 9:15.
Straitroad
February 5th, 2013
9:12 pm
Jay, you are officially drinking the koolaid. You would be howling like a werewolf if we were dealing with a republican administration. It’s sad to see you contort yourself into a position that allows you to justify this policy.
moonbat betty
February 5th, 2013
9:17 pm
geez,
those liberal bass faces are a little angry!!
RUN!
Recon 0311 2533
February 5th, 2013
9:18 pm
Keep up the poor fight can’t even tell time. The azz of the far-left.
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
9:18 pm
THANK YOU …………. except my law enforcement brother in arms is not “stupid” ……… he’s just playing the sematics game to save face.
Not playing the semantics game, but thanks for the support anyway. Most every military rifle has a different designation for the civilian version. Civilians can’t buy M4’s, but they can buy an AR-15. The military uses a Barrett M107A1 rifle, but the civilian designation is the M82A1. The AK-47 does not have such a designation, so just simply using that name does not denote whether it’s a true AK-47 (military version) or a civilian replica. It’s not semantics, and I’m sure any serious collector would tell you the same thing. I’m sure you’re aware of that though.
Jackie
February 5th, 2013
9:19 pm
Killing an American citizen without due process is wrong!
What does it hurt to chase him/her down and try to bring them back to the USA for trial.
After all, our law is based on innocent until proven guilty.
moonbat betty
February 5th, 2013
9:19 pm
Recon,
he’s just waiting to change your latrine….
Brosephus™
February 5th, 2013
9:23 pm
The kid is trying to say if you modify an AK-47 to legally import it into the country it stops being an AK-47. Tell that crap to the Feinstein crowd that keep waving them around screaming AK-47s kill.
WHen you start flinging names and stuff, that’s usually the white flag that you’ve lost the debate. They modify AK-47 RECEIVERS to import to the US, not the whole gun. Geez, for someone who claims to own one, you obviously don’t know much about it. Simply having the receiver itself does not equate to owning the complete gun.
Why don’t you talk to Feinstein as I don’t give a flying rat’s ass what she’s going around saying. I don’t have to vote for her, nor does she represent me in any shape, form, or fashion.
I probably shouldn’t have ever tried to engage you in a debate. People always say to never debate with a fool as they will drag you down to their level and beat you with their experience. Here I was thinking you were a knowledgable gun owner.
Recon 0311 2533
February 5th, 2013
9:25 pm
moonbat betty,
He or she’s, been stuck in a one, two three trench from the beginning.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
February 5th, 2013
9:26 pm
Well looks like the old man yelling at clouds just admitted he wears diapers.
godless heathen - owner of many things he does not need
February 5th, 2013
9:28 pm
Let’s roll two issues into one. Balance the budget and drone terrorists.
I understand that the drones are piloted from a secure location in Kansas. I expect that a person with average motor skills and a history of video gaming could operate the critical functions after a couple of hours of sim time.
Why don’t we offer well-healed patriotic Americans the opportunity to drone a terrorist (suspected) for a hefty fee? What would people pay for the chance to kill an insurgent? There could be a price scale. Regular terrorist $100K. Al Queda operative $150K. Al Queda 2nd in command (there seems to be an endless supply of those) $500K.
We could make a reality show out of it and sell advertising.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
9:29 pm
Brosephus:
I hear you but I still say it’s semantics.
For example, you can have a .223 hunting rifle that will take a 30 round magazine vs. a .223 AR-15 that will do the same thing. One is a hunting rifle and the other is an “assault weapon” simply because it LOOKS ugly/military vs. what it does.
Semantics.
moonbat betty
February 5th, 2013
9:30 pm
Keep.
Seek help.
Please…
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
9:30 pm
Maybe terrorists should wear better helmets like the NFL ??
Recon 0311 2533
February 5th, 2013
9:31 pm
I think someone smells, sucks and wears diapers. Yes, it’s the old man who pretends to be a young man.
guy
February 5th, 2013
9:33 pm
keith, never,ever trust a liberal. I think you smell a rat too as far as this issue is concerned.
TaxPayer
February 5th, 2013
9:35 pm
Ok. Cons should have the right to bear .223 bolt action hunting rifles with thirty round clips.
getalife
February 5th, 2013
9:35 pm
Once again, this is not a con echo chamber.
Go to bed cons.
You can lie and call names for your failed pols in the morning.
Marty Huggins'
February 5th, 2013
9:40 pm
So jay is for the destruction of due process.
Also he makes it clear that in his world conservatives are only faking their criticism while democrats are being completely honest in their concerns.
What a joke Jay.
How arrogant of you to claim to know what is in people’s hearts.
What if the person who decides is wrong Jay?
I mean with how well our intel has been lately seems like the channels of communication are wide open and there are no gaps nor confusion within our intel gathering agencies. Right.
So why not put the faith in one person to decide who deserve to attempt to capture and give a trial as opposed to who we just kill.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
9:40 pm
Brosephus:
For example …………. these are BAR’s (Browning Automatic Rifles).
Now we know it’s not the BAR of WWII and they’re not “automatic” but semi-automatic.
But ……………. Browning calls them BAR’s ! Same thing with the AK’s …………….
)
http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/finder.asp?f1=002B
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
9:42 pm
We won WWII with an 8 round clip.
moonbat betty
February 5th, 2013
9:42 pm
getalife,
duck, and hope you don’t get caught, lib.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 5th, 2013
9:42 pm
he’s just waiting to change your latrine….
I believe that you were red-carded for suggesting that someone put their head in a toilet, and now you’re talking about latrines.
You have a toilet fixation.
Seek help.
Please…
Keep Up the Good Fight!
February 5th, 2013
9:43 pm
The budget deficit is projected to shrink to $845 billion this year and $435 billion next year. That’s got to hurt them ODS inflicted.
moonbat betty
February 5th, 2013
9:44 pm
Kamchak,
Please quit eating the yellow snow.
geez…..
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 5th, 2013
9:46 pm
Please quit eating the yellow snow.
Thanks for proving my point.
Seek help.
Please…
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
9:48 pm
I vote we quit talking about assault weapons or hunting rifles,etc and talk about functions that should or should not be banned.
Issue iss whether weapons should be restricted to number of rounds they hol. N
Drop the sematics.
Recon 0311 2533
February 5th, 2013
9:48 pm
Most people who own AR’s do so as collectors or those who enjoy target shooting. My SR 556 sits in my locked safe until I take it to the range about twice a year. My home protection is a 12 gauge 870 tactical Remington and a .45 Springfield XD
oldguy
February 5th, 2013
9:49 pm
I love it!
Jay uses “Liberal…Standards…..and wrong” in the same sentence.
In the words of our newest gay marine “Well surprise…surprise!”
How dare they question the wisdom of the omnipotent one (he that shall not be named).
Duel on Libs.!
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
9:51 pm
Let the sequester begin. The cuts will take effect slowly over the next year. We will have a minor resession but will live over it. Most of us. Deaths by suicide go up during resessions. And as unemployment rates go up.
oldguy
February 5th, 2013
9:54 pm
Woopie!!
We are going to only go another $845 Billion in debt this year!
That’s about like saying “I’m happy as hell, I only lost a foot in the accident instead of a leg!”
Woopie!…..Woopie!
Uh Huh... The penalty for Patriotic Treason is death
February 5th, 2013
9:59 pm
@oldguy
February 5th, 2013
9:54 pm
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Consider yourself blessed.
getalife
February 5th, 2013
9:59 pm
I will duel you.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 5th, 2013
10:01 pm
getalife
http://ringofsteel.org/reference/irishcode.html
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
10:02 pm
Oscar @ 9:48
Now you’re catching on !
The debate should be about functionality (not looks) and the 2nd Amendment.
I have always said I will support any new regulation or legislation if I am CONVINCED it will do two things:
1) Actually make a difference (reason vs. emotion)
2) Does not violate the Constitution
KEITH
February 5th, 2013
10:02 pm
And I have an AK-47 locked in my safe. Along with a Benelli M-4. my HD weapon is a Glock 20 10mm 15 round mag, or clip to you liberals lol, with a tac light. Both the AK-47 and Benelli are fully loaded and ready to go, just punch in the 6 digit code and Im in. No 911 and waiting, hoping the cops arrive in time. When seconds count, cops are minutes away.
getalife
February 5th, 2013
10:03 pm
Is this sequester the last gop self inflicted bs?
I hope so.
We don’t need no stinking gop regulation.
Recon 0311 2533
February 5th, 2013
10:04 pm
0311/8541,
I was in 61-67 and my first duty assignment was M-3-6 where I was a BAR man. Great weapon until a few weeks later we were issued M-14’s and in my case M-14’s modified for full rock and roll. The gun would throw rounds off target unless you kept the gas cylinder plug tight. It was a good piece in early Vietnam as long as you understood that flaw.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
10:04 pm
Recon:
“Most people who own AR’s do so as collectors or those who enjoy target shooting. My SR 556 sits in my locked safe until I take it to the range about twice a year. My home protection is a 12 gauge 870 tactical Remington and a .45 Springfield XD”
And I have my Remington 870 and my Glock Model 30 (.45 caliber).
Like minds think alike !
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
10:05 pm
Recon:
I hear you ! My assigned MOS weapon in Nam was a Remington 700. Need I say more ?
KEITH
February 5th, 2013
10:05 pm
So according to Brocephus, if you have body work done on a Cobra it ceases at being a Cobra because it doesnt have the original body panels on it. Yea right. lol
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 5th, 2013
10:07 pm
First it’s keith, and now it’s KEITH.
It’s a good idea to check the spelling of your nom-de-blog — paying special attention to upper and lower case usage — after doing the sock-puppet thingie.
Just suggestin’.
oldguy
February 5th, 2013
10:07 pm
get,
Too busy to argue tonight, am making a CD for my car of Caroline Costa and Priscilla Betti hits.
sorry
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
10:07 pm
KEITH:
Shhhhhhhhhh …………… don’t say AK-47.
You’ll get Brosephus going again ………………..
KEITH
February 5th, 2013
10:08 pm
i changed computers. im on a laptop now. sorry it bothers you
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
February 5th, 2013
10:08 pm
Kammie:
He just “modified” himself like that AK-47.
It’s still an AK and he’s still “kEiTh” !
KEITH
February 5th, 2013
10:09 pm
KEITH:
Shhhhhhhhhh …………… don’t say AK-47.
You’ll get Brosephus going again ………………..
ok sorry. i can admit when im wrong. see? lol
keith
February 5th, 2013
10:10 pm
better? man people let the tiniest things bother them.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 5th, 2013
10:10 pm
i changed computers. im on a laptop now. sorry it bothers you
Uh, huh.
And I have a date later this evening with Catrinel Menghia.
keith
February 5th, 2013
10:11 pm
enjoy your date.
keith
February 5th, 2013
10:13 pm
enjoy your date but i figured justin bieber to be more your type.
moonbat betty
February 5th, 2013
10:17 pm
kamchack’s antentae are erect.
flagboy?
February 5th, 2013
10:17 pm
Must be tough swallowing some things to toe the party line. . .
oldguy
February 5th, 2013
10:18 pm
Recon and 0311,
My emergency bedroom arm is a .357 snub nosed revolver; for a specific reason. When you are awakened in the middle of the night by a crash or a door opening you are half asleep and you don’t need to be thinking “is the safety on? is there a round in the chamber? is it cocked?” with the revolver it’s simply “point and shoot”.
For more serious defense I have a .45 Ruger 90 with a 12 rd magazine in the headboard of the bed.
Everything in my place is loaded, because an unloaded firearm is just a poor club.
keith
February 5th, 2013
10:18 pm
California is one of the worst places to own a business, they passed 8 hundered new laws just last year. So the Texas Governor is running ads in CA inviting businesses to move to TX. CA Governor is pissed at Texas blaming their Governor for the job losses. Gov Brown. look in the mirror.
keith
February 5th, 2013
10:20 pm
Recon and 0311,
My emergency bedroom arm is a .357 snub nosed revolver; for a specific reason. When you are awakened in the middle of the night by a crash or a door opening you are half asleep and you don’t need to be thinking “is the safety on? is there a round in the chamber? is it cocked?” with the revolver it’s simply “point and shoot”.
For more serious defense I have a .45 Ruger 90 with a 12 rd magazine in the headboard of the bed.
Everything in my place is loaded, because an unloaded firearm is just a poor club.
G20 is the same way. point and shoot.
kayaker 71
February 5th, 2013
10:20 pm
I really do pity the home intruder who comes into my home uninvited. You ought to see what a double 0 buck round does to the human body. Even one or two of the pellets will turn the perp around and usually knock them down and render them as a non threat. I am not sure why a 12ga should not be issued with the title to your home.
Doggone/GA
February 5th, 2013
10:21 pm
You know, this “AK47″ discussion is beginning to remind me of the old tramp that had a knife to sell. Had a good story too, said it was the original knife the was used to cut Jesus down from the cross. Only wanted $20 for it too. A bargain.
Of course, it had had 6 new blades, and 4 new handles since then…but it was the ORIGINAL!
keith
February 5th, 2013
10:21 pm
BTW I recently bought a Smith 686 plus 7 shot 2 1/2 inch barrel and put night sights on it.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 5th, 2013
10:21 pm
i figured justin bieber to be more your type.
And there’s your sign.
oldguy
February 5th, 2013
10:23 pm
Keith,
I see the Biebs is smoking a lot of weed lately, that’s why he lost Selena Gomez, you just can’t trust those Canooks!
keith
February 5th, 2013
10:27 pm
Bieber is the typical liberal leftwing hypcrite. He whines about the media following him around then goes out and gets a chrome plated Fisker. never get noticed in that lol
getalife
February 5th, 2013
10:30 pm
I only buy special forces guns and ammo.
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
10:31 pm
I once had a pair of steel framed glasses. Had to replace the left earpiece, then the rightafter another year. Then the lenses. And the nose pice and then the remaining part of the frame, and started over again. But I wore those glasses fifteen years before I ever had to buy a new pair.
moonbat betty
February 5th, 2013
10:31 pm
Sounds like keith and getalife should hang out. lol
oldguy
February 5th, 2013
10:32 pm
kayaker71,
long barrels are not good in tight places and around corners, ask our guys in Iraq. The British have the best idea, bullpup type weapons, very short but with an adequate barrel for accuracy.
keith
February 5th, 2013
10:33 pm
betty you and bill clinton should hang out. just be careful when he offers you a cigar.
Mr Right, the FOXBOT
February 5th, 2013
10:34 pm
You will sometimes run across a half-hearted version of that critique coming from conservatives, but it is hard to take such complaints seriously. If you doubt that conclusion, imagine what conservative critics would be saying if the Obama administration had announced that it would NOT target known al Qaida leaders out of deference to due process concerns.
The howling would be epic
The howling would be epic by you if this was Bush doing this!
DownInAlbany
February 5th, 2013
10:34 pm
A reporter asked Jay Carney to explain the President’s changing positions on human rights issues in war. The reporter asked, “The President strongly opposed the ‘enhanced interrogation techniques,’ so called, of the Bush administration. He ended them. How does dropping a bomb on an American citizen without any judicial review, any trial, not raise the very human rights questions, or more human rights questions than something like water boarding?”
moonbat betty
February 5th, 2013
10:37 pm
OK, keith,
same goes for when you f’ getalife.
Recon 0311 2533
February 5th, 2013
10:37 pm
One thing y’all have to know about a shot gun is that within 30 yards that would be about the range you’d be shooting against a bad guy intruder that gun will only spread buckshot at about the size of a small water glass. You still have to aim.
flagboy?
February 5th, 2013
10:39 pm
“That reality demonstrates both the moral bankruptcy of the Bush approach and its essential anti-American nature. One of the key insights of our Founding Fathers was that government power should never go unchecked, because great unchecked power leads inevitably to arrogance and great unchecked abuse.
The Bush administration nonetheless claimed and exerted such power, and for a time the American people, judicial system and political leadership allowed that claim to stand. It was not our finest moment as a people.”
–Jay Bookman “Guantanamo an American Failure” November 25, 2008
Yo Yo
February 5th, 2013
10:45 pm
Moonbat
You have a mouth on you for a female.
Nasty nothings
oldguy
February 5th, 2013
10:46 pm
I see “Metta World Peace” (Ron Artest in real life) got thrown out of a pro basketball game Sunday and suspended tonight. Gotta love those peaceniks, they are great fighters!
Peace
February 5th, 2013
10:48 pm
DownInAlbany @ 10:34:
You need to take into consideration that the current president is a liberal Democrat. Things are different now. The outrage will return when a conservative occupies the White House.
moonbat betty
February 5th, 2013
10:49 pm
Yo Yo.
I could shut your face…
and I could skeet higher than you too.
ken
February 5th, 2013
10:53 pm
If President Bush did this you libs would be screaming at him. Go figure.
Yo Yo
February 5th, 2013
10:53 pm
Betty or Bob
Thanks for proving my point.
Thomas
February 5th, 2013
10:55 pm
Flagboy- Well done. Modern media simply judges first and backfills an argument providing the reader no real new information.
moonbat betty
February 5th, 2013
11:00 pm
sorry, Yo Yo.
They censored my post.
Any time you wanna step outside.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7hHx7gdN68
oldguy
February 5th, 2013
11:03 pm
great post Flagboy?
Jay,
So locking up enemy combatants in a tropical paradise with good food, recreation, prayer books and rugs is “moral bankruptcy” and “anti-American” but blowing them and their children up by remote control is OK?
Yeah, sounds fair to be.
getalife
February 5th, 2013
11:03 pm
I spray 90 rounds and let God sort them out.
Yo Yo
February 5th, 2013
11:03 pm
Calm down Bob
Your blog bully act is only impressing you.
Sleep it off.
Jm
February 5th, 2013
11:05 pm
On topic
Just try the dude in absentia beforehand
If found guilty, then vest the powers of execution in the executive
When the executive has become judge jury and executioner, all in one, we have seriously lost our way
Obama is Bush II, and he sucks
getalife
February 5th, 2013
11:09 pm
Yeah and if the target attacks, you would say our President should have droned him so shut it jm.
moonbat betty
February 5th, 2013
11:09 pm
lol,
damn the critics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xat1GVnl8-k
Yo Yo.
You and getalife remind me of “Swede”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9qssDTyVNo
Yo Yo
February 5th, 2013
11:12 pm
Moonbat
You remind me of a scared man who plays a tough woman on a blog
Lol
keith
February 5th, 2013
11:14 pm
anyone remember when the Glock 17 was about to be imported into this country? The gun control nuts were howling about the plastic gun evading airport security. It was going to kill everyone during their flights. Looking back now, werent they really really stupid? What is the number 1 gun utilized by law enf in this country today? Glocks.
Well they havent changed. They are STILL that stupid.
flagboy?
February 5th, 2013
11:17 pm
oldguy, i’m not going to compare Guantanamo to a tropical paradise. . .
moonbat betty
February 5th, 2013
11:21 pm
Yo Yo,
you be silly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wuGSRx2qsc
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
11:24 pm
It’s really weird to read cons complaining about the violation of people’s civil rights. Like the world has been turnedupside down.
flagboy?
February 5th, 2013
11:28 pm
Oscar
It’s really weird to read cons complaining about the violation of people’s civil rights. Like the world has been turnedupside down.
________________________________
I know. the next thing might be libs condoning the loss of people’s civil rights. really weird indeed.
oldguy
February 5th, 2013
11:31 pm
Flag
Its better that being dead!
And I can assure you its a tropical paradise compared to Iraq or Afghanistan.
One of my favorite jokes “Who is this Stan guy they named all these countrys after?”
td
February 5th, 2013
11:35 pm
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
11:24 pm
It’s really weird to read cons complaining about the violation of people’s civil rights. Like the world has been turnedupside down.
Depends on whos rights you are talking about. If it is the foreign terrorist then hell no. If it is American citizens then I am a little more cautious and do not want to just leave it up to the executive branch alone.
For the most part I approve of the drone program but I think it should be modified to include not only the executive branch but include a panel for approving the death of an American citizen that includes members of all three branches of government. unanimous approval before we take out a citizen.
keith
February 5th, 2013
11:35 pm
When Bush was in office liberals wanted terrorists read their miranda rights. now they want them killed. funny how an election can turn liberals all around, backwards and upside down.
keith
February 5th, 2013
11:36 pm
bookmans has proven its not just the SECOND AMENDMENT he opposes. He hates the whole thing.
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
11:40 pm
td – I know, we could call that a death panel.
td
February 5th, 2013
11:46 pm
Oscar
February 5th, 2013
11:40 pm
td – I know, we could call that a death panel.
Never thought of it that way but this death panel would make a great deal more sense then the one in Obamacare.
Yo Yo
February 5th, 2013
11:50 pm
Obamacare is going down.
Big Republican wins in 2014 and 2016 will erase this mess
moonbat betty
February 6th, 2013
12:01 am
Once economies know that obamamonics are through,
health and prosperity will flourish.
Tough it out 4 more years, America, and we can begin the healing process!
getalife
February 6th, 2013
12:09 am
The Republicans are moving to meet our President and compromise.
You will hate it but our country needs it.
Life will go on.
moonbat betty
February 6th, 2013
12:12 am
getalife, check yo self before you wreck you self.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsdj9NRzqC4
moonbat betty
February 6th, 2013
12:29 am
goodnight, getalife.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLpfbcXTeo8
bman.
February 6th, 2013
12:52 am
that’s right…sleep it off old timers
moonbat betty
February 6th, 2013
1:00 am
bman, I’m just winding down my 18 hour day.
Aloha!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adXY0Q1Eqzc
bman.
February 6th, 2013
1:03 am
moonbat .. .. i see you gained a few new fans this evening!
moonbat betty
February 6th, 2013
1:10 am
I hope so, bman. The more the merrier!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKz2U4fvA4U
Winnie
February 6th, 2013
1:52 am
Death Sentence iussed by “informed high level officials” ?? Well, I guess Due Process, Judges, juries are all so quaint now-a-days. I could not disagree more with this author.
Redcoat
February 6th, 2013
5:28 am
Lethal drones vs nonlethal interrogation…….look back in time and let’s see how Jay and friends stood after 9/11 and Bush’s approach through the years…..Bush is evil? Who do you trust now? Better be careful what you say and with whom you associate..you now will be subject to execution..and I know the left knows how easy things can be “twisted”.
Corbin Sharpe. I think, therefore I am...I think.
February 6th, 2013
6:02 am
Good Hump Day morning to all y’all…
Saw this, laughed, and thought I’d share…
http://cheezburger.com/7036108032
MiltonMan
February 6th, 2013
6:26 am
Lib Logic:
(1) Let’s close Gitmo so these poor, unfairly, misunderstood “people” can get a fair trial in the good ‘ole USA.
(2) Waterboarding is inhumane!!!
(3) Let’s blow them up on foreign soil if “we” believe they are a threat
Corbin Sharpe. I think, therefore I am...I think.
February 6th, 2013
6:33 am
REDCOAT,
Back when we had all those Gitmo prisoners and we wanted them tried in traditional courts instead of military tribunals, I was all for that. I felt it was a way to show the world that we were right and fair with our enemies…but…those people were already captured and in some cases kidnapped (I had no problem with that either), but they were in our control.
Any American citizen who aligns himself or herself with any foreign group that wants to do harm to Americans, forfeits any right of “due process”. If they are somehow captured, fine, then due process them, but do not put American lives in danger trying to capture them.
Drones prevent American deaths. They put the fear of Allah into the terrorists and give them a taste of their own medicine. I’m all for it. And think of this, the Middle Eastern Terrorist hides among their people for protection, so when we hit them there will be collateral damage. That will continue as long as their populace allows them in among them.
Remember too all of the innocent lives lost to suicide bombers, car bombs and IEDs. Drones can stop that by killing those who would order such atrocities.
I much prefer drones over boots on the ground.
TaxPayer
February 6th, 2013
6:41 am
Cons are fickle hypocrites.
Doggone/GA
February 6th, 2013
6:57 am
(1) Let’s close Gitmo so these poor, unfairly, misunderstood “people” can get a fair trial in the good ‘ole USA
Maybe you aren’t aware that 80-some off of those “poor, misunderstood people” have ALREADY been cleared for release…but we can’t return them home, because they are from Yemen and we will not let them go back there…and no other country will take them. So they’re stuck in limbo and still at GITMO.
Corbin Sharpe. I think, therefore I am...I think.
February 6th, 2013
7:07 am
BTW:
Kudos to Queen Elizabeth for being the Queen of the UK for six decades plus one year today,
A toast (mine with marmalade, please
) to Good Queen Betty!
Thomas Heyward Jr
February 6th, 2013
7:16 am
Clearly…………Osama Bin Laden won.
.
sigh
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
7:16 am
It’s about time we fight the Terrists with their own weapons—sneakiness, suddenness, and deadliness.
As is always the case with our RC at his/her best: take what’s posted, mirror-image that sucker, and you’ll find the truth.
Granny Godzilla
February 6th, 2013
7:16 am
Let’s all be real honest.
Most of us prefer the use of drones to boots on the ground.
AND
Each of us has a personal opinion regarding whichever President has or has had that
responsibility.
I won’t lie. I was less comfortable with that responsibilty in the hands of Presidents
who had bungled foreign policy and national security.
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
7:19 am
http://www.eschatonblog.com/2013/02/adapted-from-true-lies.html
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
7:22 am
GG @ 7.16, since these are decisions regarding our “war” you are basically correct.
My overarching question is, when does this “war” ever end?
Are we doomed to forever wage “war” against “people who want to destroy us” and continue to hand over power to the Commander in Chief to dispatch “soldiers” in a manner to his or her liking? Where’s this headed?
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
7:24 am
And I have to say, when it comes to complex issues like this, I really miss a proper threading capability and a clown filter.
repentcauseJISL
February 6th, 2013
7:29 am
Drones have killed 170 children….No US President has the right to kill an American Citizen without due process. If you open that door then its ok to kill them here! Stalin killed 20,000,000 citizens of USSR and it started with one!
hamiltonAZ
February 6th, 2013
7:30 am
– The targeted individual is “a senior operational leader of al Qaida or an associated force of an inner city gang — that is, a gang leader actively engaged in planning operations to kill Americans.”
– “… an informed, high-level official of the US government has determined that the targeted individual poses an imminent threat of violent attack against U.S. citizens.”
– The capture of the individual located in a Toronto is deemed “infeasible.”
Can we seek out the gang leader and “drone” him without following these precepts?
“No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger…”
What if the only difference is that the person is located in the US?
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
7:31 am
We waterboarded three terrorists and ultimately got OBL from the intel
Thank you, Hollywood. You give so much and ask so little in return.
Redcoat
February 6th, 2013
7:31 am
But, but, but………It’s Obama…….yeah, I hear y’all…..good grief!
MiltonMan
February 6th, 2013
7:33 am
“Maybe you aren’t aware that 80-some off of those “poor, misunderstood people” have ALREADY been cleared for release…but we can’t return them home, because they are from Yemen and we will not let them go back there…and no other country will take them. So they’re stuck in limbo and still at GITMO.”
In reality, President Obama announced a moratorium on releasing any Yemenis from Guantánamo, which still stands
hamiltonAZ
February 6th, 2013
7:36 am
…or does the “public danger” clause cover the policy? If so, can you suppose how that may be extended? Laws like the Patriot Act and Supreme Court opinions over the last 20 years have eroded our fourth amendment protections to practically nothing.
Are we now going to accept the erosion of our fifth and fourteenth amendment rights as well?
I am not saying this policy as it applies to Al Qaeda is surely wrong, but it is certainly a subject worthy of debate.
Redcoat
February 6th, 2013
7:41 am
Politicians do not derive power from the middle……they are either left or right…….we are getting too much of both……..don’t you think? Left ok now with lethal drone against American Citizens…. Right ok now with more entitlement spending and no debt limits?……who would have thought? Up is down, wrong is right…….
Granny Godzilla
February 6th, 2013
7:42 am
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
7:22 am
GG @ 7.16, since these are decisions regarding our “war” you are basically correct.
My overarching question is, when does this “war” ever end?
Are we doomed to forever wage “war” against “people who want to destroy us” and continue to hand over power to the Commander in Chief to dispatch “soldiers” in a manner to his or her liking? Where’s this headed
.
.
.
All are most excellent questions. None of which we can answer definitively.
In the end all we can to is act responsibly and morally and pray that as a
species we will someday unlearn war.
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
7:42 am
When the country collapses and the citizens are no longer getting their handout they will start rioting and looting just as in Greece.
A wee remember: We could’ve had that^^ brilliant fiscal policy mindset in the White House right now, given the right circumstances.
Thomas Heyward Jr
February 6th, 2013
7:45 am
To Obama and crew…………..we are ALL brown people now.
Thomas Heyward Jr
February 6th, 2013
7:46 am
He’s “codified” it.
.
lol
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
7:46 am
When the President does it, that means it is not illegal.
alex
February 6th, 2013
7:53 am
Jay, have you gone to law school?
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
7:53 am
If we don’t have some sort of transparency with regard to the standards we’re employing in order to use these, then do we have any legitimate complaint coming when other nations follow our lead?
I admit I didn’t read all gazillion comments here, but did ANYONE bother to address this question raised by our Joe Hussein Mama?
I too have been concerned about this aspect of the program. In a few years this remote warfare technology is going to be dirt cheap and available to just about anyone with a few dollars, decent hand-eye coordination, and maybe a few friends in low places.
flagboy?
February 6th, 2013
7:58 am
The most interesting aspect of this post is most people will take information and find a way for that information to fit their own agenda/ideology/political affiliation.
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
7:58 am
Make no mistake–Jay is doing his due diligence; he has researched a topic, found some decent holes in a popular argument-against and made a decent argument-for. Per usual, Jay’s shown his work and gives us something that advances the discussion. I don’t claim to be smart enough to know if the Administration are being a bunch of power-mad wankers or actually acting in the best interest of the nation, and until I get smarter, I’ll have to keep myself open to new arguments.
That said, and echoing a sentiment/concern expressed here, to wit:
Can we seek out the gang leader and “drone” him without following these precepts?
“No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger…”
Far as I can tell, so long as we’re at “war” we can literally kill anyone we want.
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
7:59 am
State tax/tuition policy [try to stay awake] SHEETZ.
Corbin Sharpe. I think, therefore I am...I think.
February 6th, 2013
8:00 am
repentcauseJISL
February 6th, 2013
7:29 am
I’ll ask it again. What about the hundreds of children killed in suicide bomb and IED attacks? Where is your outrage for them?
Bottom line, any American Citizen who joins a foreign army dedicated to the destruction of our way of life forfeits due process and can be killed with impunity.
JohnnyReb
February 6th, 2013
8:03 am
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
7:42 am
When the country collapses and the citizens are no longer getting their handout they will start rioting and looting just as in Greece.
A wee remember: We could’ve had that^^ brilliant fiscal policy mindset in the White House right now, given the right circumstances.
___________________________
Such short selective memory. We have had a similar circustance – the LA riots after the King verdict. There were businesses that survived only because of guarding their property with guns/rifles.
Only liberals would think a LA type riot or worse can’t happen here. If the economy were to collapse be assured it will be worse than you can imagine. We have a large part of the populous who can’t survive on their own.
alex
February 6th, 2013
8:04 am
@Granny, let’s be honest..in our own way we all are. I don’t know where I come down on this but Jay’s arguemeent is adolescent. I AM distictly uncomfortable with any person ordering the killing of a fellow citizen without judicial overview, but I am not a lawyer and this is a discussion that MUST occur.I don’t give a damn who the president is or who the person is…
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
8:06 am
One last thing:
Kind of amazing that ctrl-F’ing these comments does not return a single solitary instance of the words “John Brennan”.
(the last name did appear in one URL, but nobody appears to care about WHY this issue is being brought to light right now, and why the white paper got leaked in the first place.)
headin’ upstairs.
stands for decibels
February 6th, 2013
8:09 am
Only liberals would think a LA type riot or worse can’t happen here.
and J-Reb, try to be a little less of a derriere-chapeau, will you? the point of my ridiculing Mittens for his “we R just like Greece” nonsense is because it’s a dumb form of shorthand, not because I believe that Americans are incapable of public displays of violent displeasure, fercryin’outloud.
/drive-by
Granny Godzilla
February 6th, 2013
8:13 am
alex
I would have had more respect for your point if you hadn’t included this:
I don’t know where I come down on this but Jay’s arguemeent is adolescent.
Granny Godzilla
February 6th, 2013
8:14 am
Only liberals would think a LA type riot or worse can’t happen here.
.
.
.
.
Piffle
Balboa Drive, Chicago 1968
Escaped from Email Purgatory
February 6th, 2013
8:28 am
We’re at war with fanatics. These folks pretty much devote their every waking moment to design and carry out ways to kill as many of us as possible.
I support the use of drones to take them wherever and whenever possible. Unfortunately a successful drone strike may inflict collateral damage.
I support the President’s use of drones for this purpose. I have confidence he’s identifying the right guys to kill with the strike. Seems doubtful that a sophisticated and expensive of ordnance like a drone would be used on a guy who joined the movement last week to meet chicks.
Besides, I think in their club, they get women after they off themselves. That’s what the recruiting posters say.
American citizen or not, they’ve turned against their country during wartime.
alex
February 6th, 2013
8:49 am
Your respect for me is unnecessary, PFILLE..get over yourself, your one word responses garner no respect, only chuckles. YOU and Jay have a majority of adolescent arguements, PFILLE.. again, get over yourself.. Any arguement that is one sided is adolescent as are the majority of your and Jays are PFILLE…..Thanks for the chuckle!
The 3 main points include one that requires: “an informed high-level official”..so that actually puts a large amount of responsibility for killing someone in someone ELSE, who is responsible to what organization (CIA)? I thought we outlawed that years ago… possible slippery slope..
vinny
February 6th, 2013
8:51 am
Jay – We don’t go out and kill bank robbers. They are arrested and tried by a jury of their peers.
That’s the point that you bedwetting liberals just don’t get.
Redcoat
February 6th, 2013
8:55 am
Escaped from Email Purgatory …………Were the Liberals confident Bush was targeting the “right guys” with the Patriot Act?….Gitmo? ………up is down… wrong is right ….confusing isn’t it?
Doesn't matter who's president
February 6th, 2013
9:15 am
Note to the President and his lawyers, from a liberal supporter:
“No person shall be … deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.” -Fifth Amendment of the Constitution.
Just a little reminder.
flagboy?
February 6th, 2013
9:43 am
Doesn’t matter who’s president
February 6th, 2013
9:15 am
Note to the President and his lawyers, from a liberal supporter:
“No person shall be … deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.” -Fifth Amendment of the Constitution.
Just a little reminder.
_________________________________
+1
BOHICA
February 6th, 2013
10:05 am
Jay, Glad to see you commenting on this. I guess you liked the movie “Minority Report” too!
BOHICA
February 6th, 2013
10:19 am
Jay,
Would you have supported the assasination of Ngo Dinh Diem during the Kennedy administration?
Jay
February 6th, 2013
10:33 am
“Would you have supported the assasination of Ngo Dinh Diem during the Kennedy administration?
Absolutely not.
mae brown
February 6th, 2013
10:51 am
I am sick unto death of Political Correctness….These bums stated and sworn objective is to KILL Americans….this is not a cocktail party…This is the enemy…..These people came here, attacked, killed and maimed….now we say “pretty please”……No, slap back,hit where they are found, protect our forces,do major damage, …..I wish I could remember the exact quote but something like ” If I can’t teach you to respect your elders, I’ll teach you to respect your betters”…Hit hard and often until the war of attrition penetrates their thick skulls that they had better go back to their caves and plot war on their neighbors….The USA has shown over and over we’ll not be bullied….they are the next in lne to learn…….
BOHICA
February 6th, 2013
10:55 am
Jay,
i agree with you. But why are you not on board with that action?
What is the difference between the perceived national security issues surrounding the CIA sponsored assasination of Diem and the current protocol as acted on by Obama and the NSA? I truly have a bad feeling about both.
Jay
February 6th, 2013
11:05 am
I guess I would distinguish between assassinating the leader of a U.S. ally who has become inconvenient to us and killing a terrorist who has pledged to attack and kill innocent American civilians and is actively working to do so. Those seem like vastly different situations to me.
BOHICA
February 6th, 2013
11:24 am
Jay,
…agree to disagree. thanks for the scintilating blog. see ya!
Escaped from Email Purgatory
February 6th, 2013
12:23 pm
@Redcoat
“Were the Liberals confident Bush was targeting the “right guys” with the Patriot Act?….Gitmo?…”
Good point. What about water boarding, too? Droning a bad guy into the next world is fine, but coercing a subject for potential intel created near apoplexy among many lefties.
I’m good with both practices.
Like you said Redcoat, it all depends on our perspective – as defined by our politics.
Adam
February 6th, 2013
2:12 pm
So how many “liberals don’t complain about drone wars when liberals do it” posts were there that completely missed the fact that Jay is a liberal complaining about the drone wars in the last five pages?
Tom Middleton
February 6th, 2013
2:33 pm
Well, liberals say we can’t use troops, and now they’re saying we can’t use drones. So what are we supposed to do, make more “decadent” Hollywood movies, in hopes all the America-hating terrorists will finally leave us alone? Just asking…
Tom Middleton
February 7th, 2013
6:02 am
Enter your comments here
Tom Middleton
February 7th, 2013
10:07 am
Jay, I should have said “some liberals” in my post of 2:33pm, and I sincerely apologize for leaving this out. When it comes to national security, it wasn’t all liberals I was talking about, just those who can only find fault with our defense instead of telling us what they think better and why.
It gets frustrating, of course, and I sensed this in everything you said. But when it comes to American terrorists abroad, well, it gets downright crazy.
Apparently regarding drone strikes, according to some liberals, it’s only American terrorists who deserve due process, not all them. And since it’s only the American ones they’re getting upset about as we speak, well, here we go again playing right into terrorists’ hands: trying to resemble the self-serving, decadent nation they claim we are.
I’m one of the many in our country ready to do most anything, to help the world free themselves to become what they want to be. But as far as I’m concerned, it doesn’t matter where they’re from: When they’ve declared war on America, they’ve had their day in court and pled guilty. PBO!