Ga.’s back-door voucher program riddled with deception
From its inception, Georgia’s tax-funded private-school “scholarship” program has been shrouded in deception and guile. Its champions have misled the public and state legislators about the purpose of the program, how it would function and who it would benefit, and they continue to mislead today.
Yet with state money tight and public schools struggling just to stay open the traditional 180 days, defenders of the scholarship program want to double the size of the program to $100 million a year.
I have a better idea: If the program can’t be made open and accountable, with demonstrable evidence that it is serving those it was created to help, it ought to be abolished altogether.
Let’s take a minute to review how the program works: As a Georgia taxpayer or corporation, when you contribute a dollar to a private-school scholarship program, an offsetting dollar is deducted directly from your state tax bill. For example, if you have a state tax bill of $2,500 and donate $2,500 for a scholarship, your tax bill falls to zero. Since 2008, the program has diverted more than $170 million of state tax revenue to private schools.
According to its supporters, the program was supposed to help finance private-school scholarships for poor children stuck in underperforming public schools. Oddly, though, the law contained no means-testing for recipients, and it quickly became obvious why. The program was a scam. Once it was passed, supporters started openly pitching the program as a means for affluent parents of children already in private school to arrange a state tax subsidy.
“You can take this chunk of money and be able to say, “No, I want this money to go to education, and not just education, I want it to go to the school of my choice, and maybe even more detailed, (to) the student of my choice,” one legislator told parents.
The question of accountability is also critical. Public schools face increasing and understandable demands to be accountable for their use of tax money and their effectiveness. Students face required standardized testing; teacher evaluations are mandated; school districts are losing autonomy to the state. State officials may even strip members of DeKalb County School Board from office for failing to do their jobs properly.
So what accountability is being required from private schools accepting tax money? None. As in literally, none. We have no idea what kind of education our $170 million in tax money has provided. We have no idea who is getting the scholarships. In fact, in 2011 legislators passed a law making it a crime to release any information about the inner workings of the program.
It makes no sense: Why require increasingly minute oversight of public school dollars, while at the same time mandating willful, total blindness to how taxpayer dollars are being spent in a private setting?
In addition, much of the money is being used to subsidize schools that freely acknowledge that they discriminate against students and parents on the basis of religion. Taxpayer money should not be used in that fashion. As the Southern Education Foundation recently pointed out, those state tax dollars are also being used to subsidize schools that refuse to serve gay students or in some cases even bar students who dare to support gay rights for others.
At Providence Christian Academy near Lilburn, for example, students can be expelled or barred for “promoting, supporting, or condoning … homosexual activity or bisexual activity,” a policy that presumably would also bar the children of gay parents from attending or receiving a scholarship.
As a private institution, the folks at Providence Christian and other schools have every right to maintain that policy. Having such policies subsidized by the taxpayer is another matter entirely. If such discrimination wouldn’t be tolerated in a public school financed with taxpayer money, why should it be tolerated in a private school that is also financed with taxpayer money?
On Monday, SEF officials submitted a complaint to the state Department of Revenue that documents in great detail multiple, widespread, blatant and continuing violations of state law regarding the scholarship program. (The full complaint is available here; it makes convincing reading.) It will be interesting to see what, if anything, comes of it.
– Jay Bookman
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507 comments Add your comment
Towncrier
January 30th, 2013
12:32 pm
How truly sad. If only the proposed gun control measures had been passed, she might have lived:
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2013/01/29/15-year-old-girl-shot-and-killed-in-kenwood-neighborhood-park/
Oh wait…Chicago already has very strict gun laws. Hmmm…maybe the problem and “solution” is not so much guns as something else. No! Let’s rush to get gun legislation passed though (as even someone like Piers Morgans has admitted) it is only symbolic. Let’s not bother really trying to figure out what we can do to reduce gun violence in America.
stands for decibels
January 30th, 2013
12:35 pm
I’m not given to making predictions, since my crystal ball never worked all that well. However:
This fund-siphoning will almost certainly exacerbate some HOPE scholarship “adjustment” in the near future.
And the proposed adjustment will NOT be to re-instate some sort of means testing but, instead, be some variant of “screw the poors.”
Look before I leap...
January 30th, 2013
12:36 pm
“Just like a misguided lib… I thought we were specifically talking about education here? Nice try fruit… Now wipe that foam off your keyboard and try again….”
I thought so too, yet your very first post at 9:48 deflected straight to Obamacare.
Your 3rd post was about the economy.
You keep talking out of both sides of your mouth in rain like this, you’re gonna drown.
indigo
January 30th, 2013
12:36 pm
Morality – 11:14 “will turn a blind eye to you if he does not not agree with the laws on the books”
That’s what our Georgia Republican politicians did for years while we complained, in vain, about all the illegals comming into our country and state.
getalife
January 30th, 2013
12:36 pm
I can take about 5 minutes of fox news.
Now, imagine these cons watching it all the time.
cnn is shaking up their programming so I gave them a few suggestions like fire all bushies for credibility. Time for wolf and other rw hacks like erin to go too.
Granny Godzilla
January 30th, 2013
12:37 pm
Towncrier
Strict gun laws?
Useless without closing show loopholes and expanding the backround checks.
NRA supported the expanded backround checks until today apparently….
Follow the money.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
January 30th, 2013
12:38 pm
Wow TC, so you know where those guns came from? They could have been bought here in GA. What a silly deflecting post that just shows the lack of real defense to what have been proposed.
TBone
January 30th, 2013
12:39 pm
@ Welcome ,”WHAT YOUR SIDE WANTS TOO. ”
I think you got me confused with someone else. I don’t align myself with any given political entity. I don’t put my faith in men who are selfish and greedy. I am merely passing through trying to get by and get along with other pilgrims.
the cat
January 30th, 2013
12:41 pm
oui Guy, If it is on the internet it must be true, correct?
Welcome to the Occupation
January 30th, 2013
12:41 pm
Towncrier: “Where have you been the last several years? Are you just now beginning to suspect that MSNBC might not be as objective as you imagined (or perhaps just hoped)? They are easily more biased than FNC. ”
No, not more biased. Just equally so. “Balanced”, you might even say.
MSNBC is the other side of the coin to FOX. FOX being the propaganda arm of the Republican party and MSNBC the propaganda arm of the Democratic party.
They both stink to high heaven of intellectual/moral corruption, if you ask me.
bigbadbob
January 30th, 2013
12:41 pm
Doggone/GA: Their tax bill is still the same…it is just like donating part of your federal tax bill to the election finance fund. That money does not come back to the taxpayer in any way, shape, or form.
Joe Hussein Mama: They are paying the property taxes that fund the public schools, yet using their own money to send their kids to private schools. You should be thankful because if they sent their kids to the public schools, they would not be paying any extra taxes and the public schools would be even more overcrowded and underfunded that they are now. Think of it as if thousands of people were paying the GA 400 or I-85 HOT lane tolls, but never used the road. If they suddenly started using the road, the toll revenue would remain the same but the roads would be a lot more crowded.
Dwoody
January 30th, 2013
12:41 pm
Mr. C.C.
Should I be able to tell Georgia not to build bridges to St. Simons Island because I only vacation in Tybee? Not to deploy Highway Patrol on 85 south, because I only drive on 75 south? Tell the Feds not to maintain a National Park in Alaska, because I will never visit it?
You think your tax return is long now, just wait until we get to fill the bubbles in on what we do and do not want our money spent on.
indigo
January 30th, 2013
12:42 pm
Towncrier – 12:32 “how truly sad” “what we can do to reduce gun violence”
How about banning all guns except for soldiers and police?
That would certainly reduce gun violence.
Towncrier
January 30th, 2013
12:44 pm
“Per your link, where’s the actual *evidence* that, as is claimed, “NBC News has been caught red-handed maliciously editing video,” please? I’m especially interested in the evidence of “malice” and of the “red-handed” characterization of the perpetrator(s)’ apprehension.”
Huh? The original, full video runs 17 minutes and 20 seconds. The “clip” aired by MSNBC runs 33 seconds with the headline Heslin was “heckled”. MSNBC elected to show that part of the hearing that might be perceived as a poor father being beat up on by gun enthusiasts. No one was heckling him, they were challenged to answer a question and some tried to do that.
I really shouldn’t have to spell all of this out for you, JHM. If there wasn’t some truth in Breitbart’s story, MSNBC wouldn’t be “reviewing” anything. I think any fair minded person can see that.
Joe Hussein Mama
January 30th, 2013
12:46 pm
bigbadbob — “Joe Hussein Mama: They are paying the property taxes that fund the public schools, yet using their own money to send their kids to private schools. You should be thankful because if they sent their kids to the public schools, they would not be paying any extra taxes and the public schools would be even more overcrowded and underfunded that they are now.”
FWIW, I don’t see where anyone in all that deserves *thanks.* I don’t have kids clogging up any school system, but I’m paying property taxes so that *other people’s kids* can go to school. Maybe you should be thanking me instead.
“Think of it as if thousands of people were paying the GA 400 or I-85 HOT lane tolls, but never used the road. If they suddenly started using the road, the toll revenue would remain the same but the roads would be a lot more crowded.”
That analogy works if you apply it to me, but not to the people who are sending their kids to private school. What they’re doing is analogous to building *another* set of roads and highways that only they can use. Whereas I’m paying for the roads (school system) and never using them at all (no kids).
kayaker 71
January 30th, 2013
12:46 pm
Economic growth reported today and the growth rate is at astounding .1%. That’s is not 1%, liberals, it’s point one percent. Recession over? Bozo doing a hellova job bringing this country back. No one to blame except himself. And you liberals voted for this clown. I really don’t know who blame, Bozo or you.
alex
January 30th, 2013
12:48 pm
@getalife, so you think wolf is rw, so you want to watch news that ONLY agrees with your already preformed viewpoint,that only gets you more insulated form the most accurate data. Where does that get you?More biased and more insular, that’s where. This may be news to you but you may not have the most accurate ideas. Get out of your warm and cozy box, challenge yourself. Personally I TRY to watch a wide variety of news programs, to TRY to be more centered–not always successful! Read the op-ed in the Washington Post and the WSJ, I know it can be uncomfortable, but try it.
getalife
January 30th, 2013
12:48 pm
Actually, Mr. Heslin asked a question on why we need AR’s and got an answer.
Second amendment.
He is a pretty good speaker and will fight for no more children like his being slaughtered at school.
Towncrier
January 30th, 2013
12:48 pm
“How about banning all guns except for soldiers and police? That would certainly reduce gun violence.”
So, do you really want to ban all guns? If so, then thanks for that candid admission (and not pretending to be in favor of the traditional and current SC interpretation of the 2A)..
It would reduce gun violence some, but since most of the gun-related homicides are perpetrated by criminals, not nearly as much as you suppose.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
January 30th, 2013
12:48 pm
No one was heckling him, they were challenged to answer a question and some tried to do that.
Nope. fail. The man was testifying before Congress. That is NOT a debate or an exchange. Moreoever the question he asked was “WHY…..” and some of the responses were “shall not infringe”. That does NOT answer WHY.
Rockerbabe
January 30th, 2013
12:48 pm
And, you folks think the Ga GOP is really going to “reform” their ethics? Well, one has to have ethics so reform and I don’t see them getting any in the near future. As for the private school ripoff; well what else would one think from a state run by the GOP?
Keep Up the Good Fight!
January 30th, 2013
12:50 pm
and not pretending to be in favor of the traditional and current SC interpretation of the 2A
So you admit that gun control is permitted and ownership of guns may be restricted. That is what you just acknowledged.
Jay
January 30th, 2013
12:50 pm
“First, Jay, happy for you and your kids, but can you really say that across the board the Atlanta, Clayton, and Dekalb public school systems are doing such a great job that there is no need for anyone to want anything different? (And I am sure none of your connections and influence had ANYTHING to do with getting them into college.)”
No, Bob, I hope to never say anything so foolish. Of course those systems have to be improved, and significantly so.
I’m also afraid that you greatly exaggerate my “connections and influence” over college admissions officers.
getalife
January 30th, 2013
12:52 pm
alex,
I watch cnn because they take AP headlines and report them.
They use yellow journalism with he said she said to create conflicts and voice their opinions.
I can filter out that bs and make up my own mind about the AP headlines.
Try it.
Bizzaro For More Guns -- Me Like Shiny Things
January 30th, 2013
12:53 pm
Let’s not bother really trying to figure out what we can do to reduce gun violence in America.
No. Bizzaro love shiny guns that make loud noise — like you! You like gun, lots of noise, smell bad, and dangerous when mouth opened.
Biazarro like.
alex
January 30th, 2013
12:53 pm
@JHN,agree to a pointif they are getting a full tax credit..I guess it’s the cost of civilized society which must be evenly distributed (do the “poor” pay?) ;anyway,share in the pain and share in the gain…whew, copyright that!
Towncrier
January 30th, 2013
12:53 pm
“Wow TC, so you know where those guns came from? They could have been bought here in GA. What a silly deflecting post that just shows the lack of real defense to what have been proposed.”
So…may I conclude that you are hereby going on record to say that guns are the principal reason for the gun violence in America and so it is not really necessary to really figure out what is going on BEFORE passing legislation (you know, as in knowing what the problem is before trying to fix it)?
Joe Hussein Mama
January 30th, 2013
12:53 pm
Towncrier — “Huh? The original, full video runs 17 minutes and 20 seconds. The “clip” aired by MSNBC runs 33 seconds with the headline Heslin was “heckled”.
So “red-handed” in this case means that they were caught physically editing the video? Is that what they’re saying?
“MSNBC elected to show that part of the hearing that might be perceived as a poor father being beat up on by gun enthusiasts. No one was heckling him, they were challenged to answer a question and some tried to do that.”
I haven’t questioned that.
“I really shouldn’t have to spell all of this out for you, JHM.”
You don’t; I understand your criticism. However, I think *I* am going to have to explain my questions to *you* because you clearly aren’t getting what I’m saying.
“If there wasn’t some truth in Breitbart’s story, MSNBC wouldn’t be “reviewing” anything. I think any fair minded person can see that.”
Please pay *specific* attention to what I say next and don’t try to figure out what I might mean by it. Just attend to the questions I’m asking.
How, exactly, was MSNBC “caught red-handed” in all this?
How, exactly, is there “malice” involved?
I haven’t *questioned* that the video was edited. So what makes their editing ‘malicious?’ And how were they caught ‘red-handed?’ My point is that Breitbart’s criticism of any partisanship on NBCs part is blunted by Breitbart’s *own* partisan criticism in pointing it out. I’d have a lot more respect for an impartial observer pointing it out without the use of additional charged language like that.
Welcome to the Occupation
January 30th, 2013
12:54 pm
TBone: ‘I don’t put my faith in men who are selfish and greedy’
Well that’s good. That is, as long as you don’t then put your faith in gods who are selfish and greedy.
alex
January 30th, 2013
12:55 pm
You filter with a filtered mind already, we all do..Miss the old UPI,better spors…
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
January 30th, 2013
12:55 pm
Oh wait…Chicago already has very strict gun laws.
Gun laws wont stop every murder with a gun.
But it will stop some.
Thats the point dummy.
Towncrier
January 30th, 2013
12:56 pm
“So you admit that gun control is permitted and ownership of guns may be restricted. That is what you just acknowledged.”
I did? I think you need a logic course. Probably a reading comprehension course as well, since I am on record here saying what I think 2A means.
Jay
January 30th, 2013
12:56 pm
Also, kayaker, now that you’re back.
Have you found mentions of that alleged income limit in Georgia’s law? Or the alleged list of 29 schools?
I should note that you also got the GDP number wrong. It didn’t increase by 0.1 percent, as you state. It fell by 0.1 percent.
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
January 30th, 2013
12:56 pm
Dang! That’s a pretty slick scheme. So we can say nobody’s tax money is going to private schools while we’re sending tax money to private schools. Only a brainy godly Republican could think that one up. But I reckon I won’t be using it. With a choice between giving up my tax refund to provide for little Nathan Zell George’s private schooling and keeping the tax refund, to public school the little feller will go.
Anyway, I hope y’all appreciate the risk I’m running to get beer in the stores for all the
drunksfine folks out there. I could get hit by a tornado and blowed into South Carolina. It would probly take the boss at least 10 minutes to find a replacement for me.Have a good p.m. everybody.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
January 30th, 2013
12:57 pm
So…may I conclude that you are hereby going on record to say that guns are the principal reason for the gun violence in America
Yep. More guns and less guns control result in more gun violence.
and so it is not really necessary to really figure out what is going on BEFORE passing legislation (you know, as in knowing what the problem is before trying to fix it)?
That is your false conclusion and rather silly. We know a lot of what is going on and how to address many of the issues. Of course, the NRA has lobbied successfully to stop a lot of “figuring out” and reporting. So you really have no point but to post some inane claim of NRA buffoonery.
Joe Hussein Mama
January 30th, 2013
12:57 pm
alex — “@JHN,agree to a pointif they are getting a full tax credit..I guess it’s the cost of civilized society which must be evenly distributed (do the “poor” pay?) ;anyway,share in the pain and share in the gain…whew, copyright that!”
FWIW, I have no problem paying taxes to support public schools. And I don’t have a problem with parents moving so their kid can go to better schools in a better district. And I don’t have a problem with parents pulling their kid out of public school so they can home-school him, send him to private school, a church academy, whatever they like. My issue is solely based on having to pay for those alternatives, either explicitly (via tax receipts being used to fund them) or implicitly (people who fund them get a tax writeoff).
If you want to send your kid to public school, great. That’s what they’re here for.
But if you don’t want to, you have to foot the bill yourself for the alternative. S’all I’m saying.
Erwin's cat
January 30th, 2013
12:57 pm
Well, in this case, they’re “redirecting” those tax dollars right back into their own pockets
now that’s a program I can get behind….can I be my own charity as well?
getalife
January 30th, 2013
12:57 pm
kay,
Actually it is defense cuts ans more cuts coming in 30 days so don’t expect job growth after cuts.
RB from Gwinnett
January 30th, 2013
12:57 pm
Just face it. Liberals care far more about their concept of “fairness” in education than they do about the results. If little Jimmy’s family wants him to get a great education at some private school, they label Jimmy and his family pariah’s and gladly take the family’s tax dollars and spread them over the remaining students while arguing whether we’ll be 48th or 49th on the education list this year. If all but 1 kid in the state were pulled from the government school system and enrolled in private school, they’d still spend a billion dollars on the 1 kid and argue about the shape of the table after he drops out of school instead of doing anything useful.
And as the liberals whine about conservatives, they completely ignore the fact the worst school systems in the state by far are the democrat controlled systems in the predominatly democrat cities and counties. And yet it’s always the Republicans who are the problem.
DannyX
January 30th, 2013
12:57 pm
“People that want more gun control must have a hole in their chest”
–Ronald Reagan
Keep Up the Good Fight!
January 30th, 2013
12:59 pm
TC, you referenced the current SC decision (Heller) so your denial means that despite your post you apparently either have no clue what Heller decided and what the dicta says or you disagree. Either way you are being disingenuous and foolish.
Erwin's cat
January 30th, 2013
12:59 pm
Gun laws wont stop every murder with a gun.
But it will stop some.
murder by knife or shovel is so much more bearable
Look before I leap...
January 30th, 2013
1:00 pm
“No one to blame except himself. And you liberals voted for this clown. I really don’t know who blame, Bozo or you.”
Well lets toss in Congress and while we’re at it, the GOP for giving us such a crap clown like Romney.
And just for grins a giggles, take 30 seconds and go look up the definition of of “recession”.
The chicken little bit is getting tedious.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
January 30th, 2013
1:01 pm
Ronald Reagan
As Gov. of California, Reagan signed the Mulford Act which prohibited the carrying of firearms on your person, in your vehicle and in any public place.
As Gov. of Cal. Reagan signed off on a 15-day waiting period for guns.
As president he signed into law a ban on ownership of fully automatic rifles.
After leaving the presidency he supported the Brady Bill which provided for a 7-day waiting period for guns.
In 1994 he wrote Congress supporting a ban on assault rifles.
Would he be a Republican today.
Not a chance.
St Simons
January 30th, 2013
1:01 pm
The republicans have incentivized corruption and made loophole surfing
a national sport.
and they’ve been slick about it, so their base rubes are slow to catch on
oh, but they will, and when they do, they’ll come after those snake oil
salesmen with their hoverounds and their Oldsmobiles, it will be ugly
Keep Up the Good Fight!
January 30th, 2013
1:02 pm
murder by knife or shovel is so much more bearable
Yep. Attempts to commit murder by knife or shovel are much more likely to be survivable. But hey, you arm your army with knives and shovels. Mine will take guns. Let’s see who wins.
bigbadbob
January 30th, 2013
1:02 pm
Hussein: A lot of those private school grads are the doctors, college professors, researchers, and business owners who contribute much to society, so if you live on an island or in a cave somewhere and do not benefit at all from anything external to yourself, then I guess you are right. Look at it like this: if we can all agree that a more highly educated, successful, and productive population is a good thing, and a subset of the population is funding part of that goal out of their own pockets, does that not benefit everyone. I think that would be true even if the end product was the same from both systems, and even more so if you factor in the possibility that the average Westminster or Marist grad may be more productive than the average APS grad. Do you really need to care why they are more productive, if it doesn’t cost you anything to make them so?
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
January 30th, 2013
1:02 pm
murder by knife or shovel is so much more bearable
And much harder to do.
Come at me with a knife or shovel.
You aren’t gonna like what happens next.
Guns make it too easy. Any fool can ( and will ) pull a trigger.
the cat
January 30th, 2013
1:03 pm
I think we should start calling these “christian” schools and let them know we think they are all cheating the system and ask them how they justify that to themselves and their god.
Welcome to the Occupation
January 30th, 2013
1:04 pm
RB from Gwinnett: “Just face it. Liberals care far more about their concept of “fairness” in education than they do about the results”
There’s no conflict between those two things. “Fairness” is an essential aspect of getting results in education.
“And as the liberals whine about conservatives, they completely ignore the fact the worst school systems in the state by far are the democrat controlled systems in the predominatly democrat cities and counties”
Of course. Democrats historically have represented those from less privileged areas of society socio-economically. What’s surprising about that?
And if there is ONE nearly absolute determinant of the academic success rates of an area, it is its affluence or lack thereof.
And THAT is what people like you continue to whine about in your effort to deflect from the fact of social injustice as the primary driver of imbalances in educational achievement.
Joe Hussein Mama
January 30th, 2013
1:04 pm
RB — “Just face it. Liberals care far more about their concept of “fairness” in education than they do about the results.”
Ridiculous.
Government services are provided at the local, county, state and Federal level. There’s no opt-out provision that lets you receive alternative services or a check if you don’t like the way the service is provided.
You can drive on roads, highways and interstates for free. But you can’t say ‘I don’t have a car’ and demand a MARTA card and taxi vouchers for the roads you paid for but don’t use. Same thing goes for schools; we pay taxes to sustain them, but the choice of whether or not to use them rests with parents.
We pay taxes at various levels to sustain those services that are available for all to use — like roads and schools. But you don’t get something *back* if you don’t use them.
Bizzaro For More Guns -- Me Like Shiny Things
January 30th, 2013
1:06 pm
No one was heckling him, they were challenged to answer a question and some tried to do that.
Who said this crazy statement? And me thought Bizarro was dumb! Me laugh now – me found someone even dumberierierere than Biazarro.
Ha. ha.
Erwin's cat
January 30th, 2013
1:08 pm
the cat – let them know we think they are all cheating the system
it doesn’t matter what “we” (speak for yourself sport) “think” about they are doing
Granny Godzilla
January 30th, 2013
1:10 pm
kayaker 71
January 30th, 2013
12:46 pm
Economic growth reported today and the growth rate is at astounding .1%. That’s is not 1%, liberals, it’s point one percent. Recession over? Bozo doing a hellova job bringing this country back. No one to blame except himself. And you liberals voted for this clown. I really don’t know who blame, Bozo or you.
.
.
.
.Not only did you get the number wrong…..but you accepted a version of the story that leaves
the real good stuff out.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2013/01/where_are_the_military_keynesians.php?ref=fpblg
“Personal income is way up, leading to an increase in both personal savings and consumption. Private sector investment is way up’
Bizzaro For More Guns -- Me Like Shiny Things
January 30th, 2013
1:10 pm
Do you really need to care why they are more productive, if it doesn’t cost you anything to make them so?
Bizarro want see grades. They say to APS, “Show me grades” Now! Why no can see others grades? Why not same?
Oooh look shiny!
RB from Gwinnett
January 30th, 2013
1:11 pm
“Of course. Democrats historically have represented those from less privileged areas of society socio-economically. What’s surprising about that?”
The surprising thing about that for me is the complete lack of whining about it from the people who pretend to care. Where are the speaches from the community leaders, the rally’s to end the drop out rate, the public service announcements, anything??? When are Jesse and Al going to show up and demand the black community stop calling their bretheren names for succeeding in school? When is Bookman going to call them out for it?
Yet we dance around the truth of the matter being more concerned about political correctness while another generation of low income kids runs headlong down the road to poverty with no education to free them from the cycle.
Joe Hussein Mama
January 30th, 2013
1:12 pm
bigbadbob — “Hussein: A lot of those private school grads are the doctors, college professors, researchers, and business owners who contribute much to society, so if you live on an island or in a cave somewhere and do not benefit at all from anything external to yourself, then I guess you are right.”
FWIW, my dad’s a senior professor of Microbiology in the Agriculture department of a ‘name’ university. I’m not going to say what school, because a lot of football fans here on Jay’s blog would start ragging on me about it.
But my dad went to a pretty backwards school system in a pretty backwards podunk part of the country (Appalachia) and he turned out just fine. I hear what you’re saying about the higher-quality education kids can get at places like Pace and Westminster, but IMO that’s on the *parents* to provide. OTOH, if you think every kid deserves an education like that, then we’re on to a different discussion, I think.
“Look at it like this: if we can all agree that a more highly educated, successful, and productive population is a good thing, and a subset of the population is funding part of that goal out of their own pockets, does that not benefit everyone.”
I completely agree. But doesn’t that benefit come *later,* when the kids are grown up and productive? You seem to want to reward the parents now, even before the kids have shown if they’re going to achieve or not.
“I think that would be true even if the end product was the same from both systems, and even more so if you factor in the possibility that the average Westminster or Marist grad may be more productive than the average APS grad. Do you really need to care why they are more productive, if it doesn’t cost you anything to make them so?”
FWIW, I think of the parents as making an *investment* in their kids’ futures. We as a country invest in every kid’s future when we support public schools. But some parents want to make a bet with higher stakes, so they sacrifice in order to send their kids to schools like that.
Maybe their investment will pay off, and maybe it won’t. But I think it’s their choice to make, because they’re the ones taking the risk.
Towncrier
January 30th, 2013
1:16 pm
“So “red-handed” in this case means that they were caught physically editing the video? Is that what they’re saying?”
I am not defending the tenor of Brietbart’s reporting. But I am not inclined to believe an alien or demon-possessed person did it. Rather, I believe MSNBC actually edited the video and HOW they edited it is PLAIN for all to see. The evidence is right before our eyes. Whether one says they were “caught” doing it (implying guilt) or that there editing is “questionable” or “suspicious” is of less concern to someone like me (who understands how “stories” are really put together and chosen for publication).
“I haven’t questioned that.”
Okay, good. It seemed as if you might be.
“You don’t; I understand your criticism.”
As you stipulated above.
“How, exactly, was MSNBC “caught red-handed” in all this? How, exactly, is there “malice” involved?”
If MSNBC PURPOSEFULLY edited the tape and headlined the story to make it appear gun rights advocates were heckling a poor, grieving father when IN FACT they were not, then 1) it is an underhanded thing to do and 2) there would be malice behind such a false accusation. Thus they could be said to have been “caught” doing something underhanded and called “malicious” for doing it.
“My point is that Breitbart’s criticism of any partisanship on NBCs part is blunted by Breitbart’s *own* partisan criticism in pointing it out. I’d have a lot more respect for an impartial observer pointing it out without the use of additional charged language like that.”
Point taken. Breitbart is biased and not always right. But that doesn’t mean they are always wrong or do not make valid criticisms (regardless of their tone). I think the same can be said for the Huffington Post. There are some right and left wing media sources that are really sloppy and inaccurate most of the time Neither B or HP fall into that category, IMO.
Snellville Dawg
January 30th, 2013
1:17 pm
Good write-up Jay. Very disturbing.
St Simons
January 30th, 2013
1:19 pm
everybody come to my surfing skool.
My un-auditable curriculum –
Philosophy-
-toes in the water, ass in the sand
-not a worry in the world, a cold beer in your hand
Chemistry-
-tie one on/up
-margaritta mixing
‘Science’
-the ocean could NOT have risen that far in just 6000 yrs
-see dinosaur tracks! (wait that’s somebody from Atl’s german shepherd)
hey, ‘divert’ your tax monay obligations to this accountant (no, really,
YOU do it, ’cause if I did that, i would go to jail). and i’ll bill the state
a tidy sum fer the privelege.
Free mahhket! Praise jaysus! Ride the wave mon.
Towncrier
January 30th, 2013
1:23 pm
“We pay taxes at various levels to sustain those services that are available for all to use — like roads and schools. But you don’t get something *back* if you don’t use them.”
Well, that is just the rub. Everyone uses roads because it is impractical or even impossible not to. The same cannot be said of public education. And there is a legitimate argument to be made that parents should not have to fund a program that does not serve them well (or at all). I, for one, think competition in the market place is a good thing.
Towncrier
January 30th, 2013
1:30 pm
“TC, you referenced the current SC decision (Heller) so your denial means that despite your post you apparently either have no clue what Heller decided and what the dicta says or you disagree. Either way you are being disingenuous and foolish.”
I referenced Heller as a counterpoint to the desire of certain liberals (perhaps even yourself) to ban all guns, not because I endorse the ruling completely. What I believe 2A to mean does not correspond fully with the majority opinion in Heller. You are apparently out of your depth here, so it seems pointless to debate this argument of YOUR construction with you. Should you have a wish to try your hand a mind reading professionally, let me counsel you against that. Maybe reading tarot cards would be more up your alley.
Joe Hussein Mama
January 30th, 2013
1:31 pm
Towncrier — “If MSNBC PURPOSEFULLY edited the tape and headlined the story to make it appear gun rights advocates were heckling a poor, grieving father when IN FACT they were not, then 1) it is an underhanded thing to do and 2) there would be malice behind such a false accusation. Thus they could be said to have been “caught” doing something underhanded and called “malicious” for doing it.”
FWIW, Breitbart *himself* was accused of doing exactly the same thing, here and elsewhere, not so long ago. If I had the time, I’d go back, find Jay’s entries from that time and then see which conservative regulars here *defended* Breitbart or said the same things I am, e.g. ‘it could have been an accident’ and ‘how do you know it was malicious.’
“Point taken. Breitbart is biased and not always right. But that doesn’t mean they are always wrong or do not make valid criticisms (regardless of their tone).”
More than biased, Breitbart and his associates have been caught more than once doing exactly what they’re decrying here. I suppose it could be said that it takes an unethical, partisan film editor to know an unethical, partisan film editor. That said, the nugget of the criticism is not invalidated thereby. Clearly the tape *was* edited, but the reasons and choices behind the actual editing itself are as yet unknown to us. Thus my discomfort over the tone taken by the Breitbart team in pointing it out.
bigbill
January 30th, 2013
1:33 pm
Excellent article, Jay. This Georgia tax-funded private-school scholarship program is indeed “shrouded in guile and deception.” What is happening out of sight and behind the curtain where the real financial levers are being pulled is the huge monetary support being supplied to this ALEC- inspired tax-funded private-school scholarship movement in states across the country by extreme right-wing Republican billionaire ideologues like Betsy Devos. Her front group, the American Federation For Children (AFC), is working very hard to dismantle the very concept of traditional, universal public school education in America. Privatizing public schools for the benefit of for-profit education companies is one goal of AFC. And funneling taxpayer funds to private religious schools is very much another priority. (It is no coincidence that the featured speaker for the next AFC annual conference in DC will be the Roman Catholic Cardinal of Washington, DC. See this AFC announcement:
http://www.federationforchildren.org/articles/749)
And finally how outrageous it is for these wealthy, right-wing proponents of taxpayer funds for private schools (including religious schools) to so often couch their proposals as being for the purpose of uplifting children out of poverty. These are the same folks who bitterly oppose food stamps, unemployment compensation, Obamacare, etc. as being socialistic. Why just two days ago, the New York Times published a front-page story about Representative Eric Cantor, “GOP’s Cantor Looking Past Politics of Debt,” in which Cantor proclaims that the GOP should be focusing on getting traction for some of it’s other top priorities, “a second softer track,” if they are going to agree on extending the debt ceiling. What would that track be? “Notably, that track will include a new push for private-school vouchers for underprivileged children…” Right.
Joe Hussein Mama
January 30th, 2013
1:35 pm
Towncrier — “Well, that is just the rub. Everyone uses roads because it is impractical or even impossible not to.”
New Yorkers say “huh?”
“The same cannot be said of public education. And there is a legitimate argument to be made that parents should not have to fund a program that does not serve them well (or at all). I, for one, think competition in the market place is a good thing.”
I have no problem with there *being* market-based alternatives from which parents may freely choose, but I think that the alternative of a free, public education should remain available to all.
captguitarman
January 30th, 2013
1:35 pm
Great column. It was conceived as a scam, and it is a scam . . . if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, etc. A really big clue that is is a scam is that the legislators made it illegal for state officials to talk about how it all works — pretty obvious, and just so “Gold Dome.”
It was an obvious bone to taxpayers of means (let’s face it, Pub/Con voters) who support the local public schools, that they do not use, with their property taxes. Just giving them a little something back for paying for the public education of others while sending their own kids to private schools and not burdening the system.
In the whole Karma of things, not an outrageous moral offense or failing, but that doesn’t make it right. It may take a long time to bring full transparency and to chase the bi-partisan “jes’ good ol’ boys doin’ bidness” culture out of the Gold Dome. This kind of reporting and commentary are slowly but surely having a positive impact. A bill has been passed to bring transparency and accountability to the scholarship system, and hopefully, some version of it will pass.
Now, if we can start seeing some real progress in preventing the lobbyist influence-buying under the Dome. Bills have been brought in both houses that need a lot of work, but both are steps in the right direction.
Christian Conservative
January 30th, 2013
1:44 pm
Common Sense isn’t very Common
CC
so if I lived in the same area as you I could redirect any money for police and fire protection away from the community?
We are talking about tax dollars for education… Obviously common sense is not your strong suit….
Keep Up the Good Fight!
January 30th, 2013
1:45 pm
Ahhhh, I see. SO TC can refer to Heller to refute arguments by others that may not agree with Heller but then he claims that he disagrees with Heller.
Point of Complete Buffoonery to TC. That is probably the match when considering all of his posts of buffoonery.
SouthernGent
January 30th, 2013
1:47 pm
Here we go again, hypocritical liberals who demand no accountable for folks on the government dole screaming if they think there might be one chance in a thousand that a tax paying citizen might get a break on the cost to send their kid to school. Of course you have no proof of abuse, only assumptions, but we know that never stops Jay. Now why would they want to do that, could it be because the school they support via their taxes for the most part suck or that the schools suck because there are so many there who don’t want to be there.
Get over it!
Jackie
January 30th, 2013
1:49 pm
Support of government functions are the basis for our tax contributions.
Government has the responsibility to provide public education to all citizens, funded by taxes paid by all.
If one chooses to educate their children in a private environment, the public contribution – taxes – should not be offered.
Public schools have the responsibility to educate all; private schools have the ability to turn away those that do not meet a “criteria” formulated by the private school(s).
catlady
January 30th, 2013
1:49 pm
I have screamed about this since its inception. It is astounding that those who cry for personal responsibility don’t see this as…NOT. And of course, the state of GA is so well off that it doesn’t need the 50 million a year. I mean, our roads are in great shape, and everything for the public is hunky-dory, right?
Bizzaro For More Guns -- Me Like Shiny Things
January 30th, 2013
1:49 pm
If I had the time, I’d go back, find Jay’s entries from that time and then see which conservative regulars here *defended* Breitbart or said the same things I am, e.g. ‘it could have been an accident’ and ‘how do you know it was malicious.’
Shirley Sherrod hack job and ALL of them.
Oooh look shiny!
Towncrier
January 30th, 2013
1:49 pm
“More than biased, Breitbart and his associates have been caught more than once doing exactly what they’re decrying here. I suppose it could be said that it takes an unethical, partisan film editor to know an unethical, partisan film editor. That said, the nugget of the criticism is not invalidated thereby. Clearly the tape *was* edited, but the reasons and choices behind the actual editing itself are as yet unknown to us. Thus my discomfort over the tone taken by the Breitbart team in pointing it out.”
Breitbart is biased. But I think the Sherrod case might be the only instance of “unethical, partisan” editing. We will see what the outcome of the defamation suit is. It sure smacks of the same sort of thing. The ACORN videos, while skewed, were nonetheless partially accurate – there were real improprieties being uncovered.
I have less problem with sites like Breitbart or the HP being biased. They don’t pretend to be otherwise. That is NOT true of older, tradition “mainline” media organizations like NBC. So when they get “caught” doing underhanded things, it is (IMO) doubly objectionable – first, for lying about a story and second for pretending they are objective on top of it all.
Towncrier
January 30th, 2013
1:54 pm
“Ahhhh, I see. SO TC can refer to Heller to refute arguments by others that may not agree with Heller but then he claims that he disagrees with Heller.”
No, Sherlock. It was to suggest that before a liberal could actually fulfill his or her desire to ban all guns, he or she would first need to overturn Heller.
But, hey, keep up the stupidity. You are doing a good job.
Bizzaro For More Guns -- Me Like Shiny Things
January 30th, 2013
2:00 pm
Breitbart is biased. But I think the Sherrod case might be the only instance of “unethical, partisan” editing.
Even Bizzaro think your statement is………
Can Bizarro say bullsh##t on blog? Can Bizarro call what little big head man said bullsh##t if it really is bullsh##t that little big head man made up?
Bizarro confused — Bizarro know that what man said is Bullsh##t but how he say without hurting little big head man small feelings?
Bizarro knoW!
Little big head man — you big head liar.
Bizarro KNEW he could do it!!
Towncrier
January 30th, 2013
2:02 pm
“New Yorkers say “huh?”
People who don’t imagine New Yorkers never at any time use roads say “huh”?
“I have no problem with there *being* market-based alternatives from which parents may freely choose, but I think that the alternative of a free, public education should remain available to all.”
You are not alone. But I think that is a form of double taxation, and it “corrals” parents into using public education because they cannot afford to pay double what everyone else is paying for their kids schooling – in effect, taking away their free choice. It seems what you are okay with is only the wealthy having an “alternative” – something I should think runs counter to your ideology. Would you have a problem in theory – whoever things must be ordered to ensure it is affordable or available to all – with privatizing all education?
Towncrier
January 30th, 2013
2:05 pm
“Can Bizarro say bullsh##t on blog? Can Bizarro call what little big head man said bullsh##t if it really is bullsh##t that little big head man made up?”
ROFL. It would appear the village idiot is out and about.
Jackie
January 30th, 2013
2:06 pm
If were to look closely at the education efficiency of other countries of the world, it is apparent that our education system is not as bad as has been perceived.
http://www.greatschools.org/students/academic-skills/1075-u-s-students-compare.gs?page=2
n
January 30th, 2013
2:06 pm
Something has changed in the past 10 years in GA.
The politicians now take great pride in shameless, brazen, bald-faced lies to the citizenry.
Of course the Democrats lied to us during their tenure in control of the state. But their legislating was at least more subtle and circumspect. You had to have a pretty high I.Q. and a high level of familiarity with the legislative process and arcane legal language to realize the public was being hoodwinked. And the Democrats occasionally did something productive & beneficial for the citizens.
The current crop of Republicans are grotesquely transparent in their use and misuse of power.
They consider us all idiots or sheep, who are too stupid to realize we are constantly being bamboozled and manipulated. The Charter School Amendment campaign was a perfect example of lies and deceit by our own government to influence the vote. Many people saw through it, and realized that it was just a ploy to privatize public education and line the pockets of out-of-state “educational industry” corporations, but because of the non-stop broadcasting of outright lies and misinformation, it passed.
These people have no shame, and they are turning this state into a banana republic, where the peasants are forced to subsidize the ruling class.
Joe Hussein Mama
January 30th, 2013
2:16 pm
Towncrier — “Breitbart is biased. But I think the Sherrod case might be the only instance of “unethical, partisan” editing.”
Nope. Guess who’s been working with the Breitbart crew of late? James O’Keefe and the Gang Who Couldn’t Shoot Straight.
“We will see what the outcome of the defamation suit is. It sure smacks of the same sort of thing. The ACORN videos, while skewed, were nonetheless partially accurate – there were real improprieties being uncovered.”
For that matter, so’s the edited testimony shown by MSNBC.
FWIW, you really seem to have a blind spot about this. You’re ready to forgive (and you don’t even seem aware of) potential offenses on your own side, yet you seem quick to presume the worst about potential offenses on the other side.
“I have less problem with sites like Breitbart or the HP being biased. They don’t pretend to be otherwise.”
Breitbart did, when he was still living. So does James O’Keefe. Careful, TC. As much lying down with dogs as you’re doing, you’re likely to arise with fleas.
“That is NOT true of older, tradition “mainline” media organizations like NBC. So when they get “caught” doing underhanded things, it is (IMO) doubly objectionable – first, for lying about a story and second for pretending they are objective on top of it all.”
I really think you could stand to look more closely at the “media” you’re defending.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
January 30th, 2013
2:18 pm
New York Times: “Charter Schools Tied to Turkey Grow in Texas”
“Operating under the name Harmony Schools, Cosmos has moved quickly to become the largest charter school operator in Texas, with 33 schools receiving more than $100 million a year in TAXPAYER (emphasis added) funds.”
“The charter school movement associated with Turkish Muslim cleric Fethullah Gulen is under federal investigation ………… Fethullah Gulen is a Turkish Islamic cleric who fled his native country in 1998, after being charged with seeking to overthrow the secular Turkish government. He currently lives in exile at a 28-acre mountain complex in the Pocono Mountains, with more than $25 billion of
assets at his command. The 135 charter schools associated with the Gulen Movement (GM) enroll more than 45,000 students and comprise the largest charter school network in the United States — all of which are fully funded by American taxpayers. Fethullah Gulen has been under investigation by the government since 2011.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/07/education/07charter.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
http://frontpagemag.com/2012/arnold-ahlert/stealth-islamist-charter-schools-under-investigation/
Joe Hussein Mama
January 30th, 2013
2:26 pm
Towncrier — “You are not alone. But I think that is a form of double taxation”
Excuse me just a moment.
Personally, I think that the notion of “double taxation” is one of the most pathetically ignorant arguments that modern conservatives have managed to promulgate. Just as a point of reference, if you’d like me to take your position seriously, find a way to articulate it without using that term or notion, okay?
“and it “corrals” parents into using public education because they cannot afford to pay double what everyone else is paying for their kids schooling – in effect, taking away their free choice.”
By your logic, public transportation prevents people from buying cars and Medicare prevents the elderly from buying more comprehensive health insurance policies. Shouldn’t individuals take their financial circumstances into account when planning how or when to have kids? Aren’t you the one who recommends that single women think long and hard about what might happen *before* they have sex? Respectfully, I don’t think you have much of an interest in “free choice” in this regard at all; I think you simply want to cast education to market forces and aren’t particularly concerned with where it might wind up.
“It seems what you are okay with is only the wealthy having an “alternative” – something I should think runs counter to your ideology.”
You think incorrectly. Home schooling is a choice available to all, even the poor. And FWIW, I expect that those individuals who rag incessantly on public schools never bother to think about whether or not *their* chosen policies would entirely *deprive* poor children of an education in the first place.
“Would you have a problem in theory – whoever things must be ordered to ensure it is affordable or available to all – with privatizing all education?”
I would have a major problem with that, yes.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
January 30th, 2013
2:29 pm
Jay:
To your knowledge are any Muslims schools in the State of Georgia receiving taxpayer funds ?
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
January 30th, 2013
2:29 pm
Excuse me: “Muslim”
Towncrier
January 30th, 2013
2:31 pm
“Nope. Guess who’s been working with the Breitbart crew of late? James O’Keefe and the Gang Who Couldn’t Shoot Straight.”
I am afraid I am going to have to ask for evidence. I went to the Wiki site to see what charges of unethical editing have been brought against Breitbart. Sherrod is the only case (of the two mentioned) I saw that might be a slam dunk.
“For that matter, so’s the edited testimony shown by MSNBC.”
I beg your pardon? Was Heslin being heckled or not (as REPORTED)?
“FWIW, you really seem to have a blind spot about this. You’re ready to forgive (and you don’t even seem aware of) potential offenses on your own side, yet you seem quick to presume the worst about potential offenses on the other side.”
It’s more that I am not aware of. But, please, provide evidence as I request above.
“Careful, TC. As much lying down with dogs as you’re doing, you’re likely to arise with fleas.”
And now, I think you are clearly showing your emotional bias.
“I really think you could stand to look more closely at the “media” you’re defending.”
I am not “defending” clearly partisan conservative media sources. But I think it is stupid to dismiss out of hand anything they report as being invalid (as a number of people do here). I read partisan liberal sites as well, because I know full well that liberals are not always wrong and “catch” conservatives doing underhanded things. I have a hard time with “sneaky” bias of media organizations that pretend to be objective and fair. That, IMO, is much worse that some clearly partisan hack skewing a story. The latter is almost predictable; the former is nefarious.
GT
January 30th, 2013
2:31 pm
GT , I don’t know, don’t look at the party affiliation on the ballot.
In this state that is pretty easy. If he is white male and over 40 he is a Republican. Of course they can’t call it like that, on the ballet which is the reason they invented the word Republican. It tells you all you need to know.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
January 30th, 2013
2:32 pm
Just asking since you chose to single out a Christian School.
While your at it ………… how about Jewish schools.
And please list things they teach (Jewish/Muslim schools) that you disagree with including any Jihad issues regarding Muslim schools).
Regnad Kcin
January 30th, 2013
2:33 pm
Mr. Digits – I thought I remembered a post where you seemed in favor of tax-supported religious schools. Did I mis-remember?
GT
January 30th, 2013
2:48 pm
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801 who knows for some reason Jewish and Muslim don’t get much support with the law like these Christian schools do. I can promise you that there is nothing going on with Muslims anywhere in this country that is kept secret by even the state government and if the Jewish people could educate our kid half as well as they educate their own we could solve this illiterate reputation Georgia has in five minutes. Most of these Christian Schools are just teaching them how to be dumb in all white classes, which the exception of a few athletes they let in for the sport of it.
Towncrier
January 30th, 2013
3:02 pm
“Personally, I think that the notion of “double taxation” is one of the most pathetically ignorant arguments that modern conservatives have managed to promulgate. Just as a point of reference, if you’d like me to take your position seriously, find a way to articulate it without using that term or notion, okay?”
And excuse me just a moment.
Tell me how you really feel. I am not here parroting what “modern conservatives” have said about this question with respect to education; double taxation is merely a phrase that popped into my head as I was writing as a means to express the idea one is paying twice for a service. That’s all.
“By your logic, public transportation prevents people from buying cars and Medicare prevents the elderly from buying more comprehensive health insurance policies.”
Well, I guess it all depends upon one’s view of the role of government. I believe that most of what government provides to people in terms of services can just as well (and probably better) be provided by the private sector (with appropriate legal guidelines). That’s the difference between you and me.
“Respectfully, I don’t think you have much of an interest in “free choice” in this regard at all; I think you simply want to cast education to market forces and aren’t particularly concerned with where it might wind up.”
Actually, I know quite a bit about public education, having gone through a one year teaching internship at a secondary school. having taught in one of the best high schools in a particular state, having read a number of books and articles about the problems with public education, having also taught at the collegiate level in both state colleges and universities. I have seen firsthand what is wrong with public education. So you would be quite wrong is charging that I don’t care about choice. I am of the opinion that government run schools are deficient in ways that more money (which is not forthcoming) cannot fix. The problems are systemic and profound. I think the shortcomings of the U.S. Postal service illustrate that government simply cannot do things as well or efficiently as can the private sector. I admire and laud the changes I have seen in the USPS. I use them as much as I can and still choose to receive mailed bills to support them. But they are still bleeding tons of money. It does not represent the most bang for the buck, in my considered opinion.
“I would have a major problem with that, yes.”
Then I would say we’ve gone about a far as we can go in this discussion.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
January 30th, 2013
3:08 pm
GT @ 2:48
Thank you for your reply and you would be wrong.
Private Christian schools graduate outstanding students.
Private Jewish schools graduate outstanding students.
Private Muslim schools (some not all) graduate future Jihadists.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
January 30th, 2013
3:09 pm
P.S.
If you (or Jay) want to cut off any (repeat ANY) taxpayer funds for any private schools then fine ………………… stick to your guns but it should be across the board !
Christian
Jewish
Islamic
Whatever
GT
January 30th, 2013
3:28 pm
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801 I find saying wrong things to you makes it worth waking up in the morning.
Z
January 30th, 2013
3:30 pm
No account ability, and my tax $’s are going to pay for these private schools. If my tax $’s are going to them they aren’t private and I want accountability. This is a complete scam and our legislators should be accountable for coming up with this corrupt education system that just sucks more money from Public Schools. There should be lawsuits filed for discrimination by all those not allowed in the school of their choice if they are turned down. This really is no surprise though, what can you expect from a Republican majority legislature, they lie, cheat, suppress the vote, commit voter fraud, and Gerrymander districts and promote scams on the public and call it good policy. There are many reason’s Georgia was voted the most Corrupt State in the Nation and this will be just another notch on the Republican Party belt of deceit!
dbm
January 30th, 2013
3:41 pm
Joe Hussein Mama
January 30th, 2013
2:26 pm
Towncrier shouldn’t have used the phrase “double taxation”; it’s actually a combination of taxation with something else.
Whenever government moves into a field, and taxes us to pay for it, it at least reduces the possibility of private involvement in that field to some extent. (Because people who want a private solution have to pay double.) Regarding your transportation example, the existence of MARTAQ
dbm
January 30th, 2013
3:44 pm
Sorry, I hit a wrong key.
Joe Hussein Mama
January 30th, 2013
2:26 pm
Towncrier shouldn’t have used the phrase “double taxation”; it’s actually a combination of taxation with something else.
Whenever government moves into a field, and taxes us to pay for it, it at least reduces the possibility of private involvement in that field to some extent. (Because people who want a private solution have to pay double.) Regarding your transportation example, the existence of MARTA completely prevents the existence of a private train system of the same kind.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
January 30th, 2013
3:45 pm
GT:
Good for you.
Keep your head in the sand.
Adrianne
January 30th, 2013
4:05 pm
Great article. Its good to see that some news organizations in Georgia are still doing investigative journalism. Maybe this should be referred to the Department of Justice and the Department of Education. Since there is no accountability, do we know that these funds are even going to the education of private schools? Making it a law that its a crime to request statistics is the same thing republicans did in the federal system so that gun shootings not be counted and researched. It’s time to take back our state house. Its obvious republicans can’t be trusted.
Joe Hussein Mama
January 30th, 2013
4:09 pm
Towncrier — “I am afraid I am going to have to ask for evidence. I went to the Wiki site to see what charges of unethical editing have been brought against Breitbart. Sherrod is the only case (of the two mentioned) I saw that might be a slam dunk.”
Breitbart and James O’Keefe have had financial arrangements at least since 2009 (see fourth graf):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_O‘Keefe
A close enough association, it seems, that Breitbart’s estate is the target of legal action based on O’Keefe’s actions:
http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/james-okeefe-breitbart-wanted-me-get-
In fact, Breitbart was paying O’Keefe for the right of first refusal of O’Keefe’s work.
“I beg your pardon? Was Heslin being heckled or not (as REPORTED)?”
What you said: We will see what the outcome of the defamation suit is. It sure smacks of the same sort of thing. The ACORN videos, while skewed, were nonetheless partially accurate – there were real improprieties being uncovered.
What I said: For that matter, so’s the edited testimony shown by MSNBC.
What’s on the ACORN tape happened, despite being out of context. And what’s on the MSNBC tape happened, despite being out of context. And just so you know, the GAO *cleared* ACORN of any wrongdoing, so your claim that “real improprieties” were involved is quite incorrect.
“It’s more that I am not aware of. But, please, provide evidence as I request above.”
O’Keefe in the pay and service of Breitbart. That should give you a bit to work with. Why not start there?
“And now, I think you are clearly showing your emotional bias.”
Perhaps, but I don’t claim to be without any.
I am not “defending” clearly partisan conservative media sources. But I think it is stupid to dismiss out of hand anything they report as being invalid (as a number of people do here).”
And, as I’ve said, I’m doing no such thing. I’m simply not giving clearly biased commentors the weight you seem to want to give them. They might very well have a point, but IMO their rhetoric blunts the value of their criticism.
“I read partisan liberal sites as well, because I know full well that liberals are not always wrong and “catch” conservatives doing underhanded things. I have a hard time with “sneaky” bias of media organizations that pretend to be objective and fair. That, IMO, is much worse that some clearly partisan hack skewing a story. The latter is almost predictable; the former is nefarious.”
I don’t believe that MSNBC *pretends* to be objective and fair. Certainly not to the degree that, say, FNC pretends to be.
* * *
“Well, I guess it all depends upon one’s view of the role of government. I believe that most of what government provides to people in terms of services can just as well (and probably better) be provided by the private sector (with appropriate legal guidelines). That’s the difference between you and me.”
I don’t believe that the private sector has any right to be involved in the development or enforcement of those “appropriate legal guidelines.” And *that,* I think, is the difference between you and me.
“Actually, I know quite a bit about public education, having gone through a one year teaching internship at a secondary school. having taught in one of the best high schools in a particular state, having read a number of books and articles about the problems with public education, having also taught at the collegiate level in both state colleges and universities.”
Stipulated that you have significant teaching experience. How, then, does that qualify you as an authority on ‘fixing’ public education? What administrative experience do you have? Have you sat on a school board? Have you been a principal?
“I am of the opinion that government run schools are deficient in ways that more money (which is not forthcoming) cannot fix. The problems are systemic and profound.”
Detail them, please.
“I think the shortcomings of the U.S. Postal service illustrate that government simply cannot do things as well or efficiently as can the private sector.”
Are you aware of the restrictions and constraints placed on the USPS under which commercial delivery services are not obliged to labor? And perhaps could you tell me how much FedEx or UPS would charge me to deliver a letter from here to Alaska in 2 days, were such a service even available from them in the first place?
UPS, FedEx and others cherry-pick their customers. They’re also not obliged to maintain the huge pension reserves that the USPS is required to by law. Were they so burdened, I suspect you might be more sympathetic to the USPS’s position.
“Then I would say we’ve gone about a far as we can go in this discussion.”
Fair enough. Thank you for saying so.
Joe Hussein Mama
January 30th, 2013
4:10 pm
dbm — “Regarding your transportation example, the existence of MARTA completely prevents the existence of a private train system of the same kind.”
Hmm.
Would it be fair to say, then, that the existence of AMTRAK likewise prevents the existence of a private train system of the same kind?