Second Amendment is not license for treason, armed revolt
According to some, the primary purpose of the Second Amendment is to ensure that citizens have enough firepower to overthrow the federal government, should it become necessary to do so. If the government ever loses its fear of such a revolt, the theory goes, our liberty ends and tyranny begins.
Let me be blunt: That is mythological claptrap. But like a lot of mythological claptrap, it can push weak-minded people — the Timothy McVeighs of the world — to do stupid and dangerous things.
It is certainly true that when the Second Amendment was drafted back in the 18th century, it was plausible to believe that an armed citizenry could be a check on overweening government power. Back then, there wasn’t much difference in the weapons available to private citizens and the weapons available to the military. It could have been, and sometimes was, a more or less even fight.
Today, that is no longer the case, and it hasn’t been the case for a century or longer. Around the world, governments have access to a range of weaponry that private citizens have no hope of matching or withstanding. There is simply no comparison between the brute, deadly force that a government can wield and that wielded by private citizens, individually or collectively. Technology has rendered that aspect of the Second Amendment a dead letter.
If you want to rejuvate that aspect of the Second Amendment, you have to be willing to grant private citizens access to fully automatic weapons, Stinger anti-aircraft missiles, grenade launchers, etc. And it’s not going to happen.
That’s not just my opinion. It is also the opinion of the U.S. Supreme Court, as expressed by one of its most conservative members, Justice Antonin Scalia, in the most important Second Amendment opinion the court ever issued.
In District of Columbia v. Heller, issued in 2008, Scalia and the court made it clear for the first time that the Second Amendment “protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia.” But in that same opinion, Scalia brushed aside claims that the Second Amendment guarantees citizens the means to armed revolution. He concluded that technology has rendered that part of the amendment an archaic artifact, because “a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large” and that “no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks.”
For that reason, Scalia made it clear that the Second Amendment “does not protect those weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes,” and that the government is fully within its rights to ban military-style weaponry.
In Iraq, for example, gun ownership is extremely widespread, with many if not most households owning fully automatic weapons that would be banned in this country. Yet Saddam Hussein had little trouble imposing and maintaining a brutal dictatorship in that country for decades. He did not confiscate guns, because he understood that such guns posed no real threat to his tyranny.
And as Joshua Keating notes at ForeignPolicy.com, look at Tunisia and Egypt, where private gun ownership is very low but citizens have nonetheless managed to overthrow brutal military dictatorships. If government now has a massive advantage in terms of brute force, innovations such as Twitter, Facebook, cellphones and satellite TV have more than offset it in the cause of freedom.
Guns don’t overthrow tyranny or guarantee liberty. People do.
– Jay Bookman
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1,326 comments Add your comment
Paddy O
January 17th, 2013
3:03 pm
2nd amendment clearly protects the citizens right to bear arms. pretend otherwise if you wish. but, that is fiction.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
January 17th, 2013
3:03 pm
So far he has done nothing, which is normal and to be expected
He did something about Osama Bin Laden.
Didn’t he.
John B. of Lincolnton
January 17th, 2013
3:04 pm
@ Joe Hussein Mama: Some good ideas but most of us will never willingly register our weapons. History shows that whenever weapons are registered they are eventually confiscated.
My idea:
1. Teachers who wish to can volunteer for a special concealed carry permit.
2. All volunteers will be given a comprehensive mental evaluation.
3. Those that pass the evaluation will be given small arms training by law enforcement or other authorized personnel.
4. Next they must pass a class on situational awareness and the proper procedures when certain situations arise.
5. Issue them a Special Concealed Carry permit for use in school.
6. Keep their identity secret and tell them not to divulge that they are carrying to anyone.
This would keep our schools safer than having armed guards running around because if I were the nutjob, the armed guard is first person I would go after.
Reverie
January 17th, 2013
3:05 pm
Why can I not defend my point of view without being maligned as a lunatic, bigot, racist, or redneck? I don’t get my information from FoxNews or Limbaugh or for that matter CNN or NPR. I get my news from everyone and I consider all sides of the issue. So if you want to ignore what I say because you don’t like what I say, come up with something original because your arguments don’t fly.
The thrust of the argument of this article apparently says “The second amendment is no longer valid because the weapons have changed and so has the politics.” That’s what it reads like, at least.
While the author may not believe it is valid I’m pretty sure he can’t argue that it will still take an amendment to change the wording. As it is written as well as the purpose for the very existence of the amendment, was to preserve the right of individuals to possess arms. It doesn’t specify which arms. It doesn’t limit the number of arms.
Personally I own a number of firearms, including the much-maligned AR. I have never shot anyone with my firearms. I keep them locked. I keep the ammo locked. I sport shoot. I don’t hunt anything.
History shows that the left believes in the power of incrementalism. Start slow and chip away at civil liberties. I don’t trust my government to protect me or my rights any more. I don’t trust the press to tell the entire story, to pursue truth or to fairly depict the opposition to left wing causes. The press preys upon the weak minds of our nation to convince us to give up our freedoms and responsibilities in favor of the illusion of safety and security. Just because the author will not report with integrity does not make his argument valid.
If you want to improve safety without giving up liberties, make the consequences to gun violence swift, painful and public. Grind the reputations of those convicted into the mud. Quit seeking out excuses for the behavior and allow them to endure the consequences. This isn’t indifference to the plight of the victims of gun violence. Freedom isn’t always easy and it isn’t always orderly and it isn’t always clean. Freedom is equitable and fair. Punish the perpetrators of the crimes. Throwing out liberties in order to assuage your left-wing guilt is selfish and lazy.
getalife
January 17th, 2013
3:05 pm
“Or they finally figured out they are irrelevant.”
I guess they finally figured it out.
I miss the tea parties where some brought their guns to scream at an American disabled in a wheelchair.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
January 17th, 2013
3:05 pm
But thanks, it’s been just a few hours since I was called a stinking liberal, nice change of pace to have a different moron call a neo nazi lol.
Delusional lickspittle?
Jm
January 17th, 2013
3:05 pm
Sfd
We can talk about
1. Global warming
2. Gerry mandering
3. Or if we’re looking for something novel: robotics
4. Or space
Instead
Stevie Ray
January 17th, 2013
3:06 pm
Fred ™
January 17th, 2013
3:02 pm
Not for nothing but most every psychiatrist will tell you that arrogance is simply a cover for insecurities….guns can help and I’m wondering exacty what style Hummer or Corvette this dude drives…Thoughts?
TomB
January 17th, 2013
3:06 pm
Yes, but not the government created by the founding fathers. A government that is invading or a tyrant that is attempting to rise up, yes. But arming yourself and attacking the U.S. government is still treason, which is in the Constitution as well. Before the amendments.
Adam, what word do you not understand….treason or self defense?
Paddy O
January 17th, 2013
3:06 pm
yeah, run out and buy all those spoilable necessities.
JamVet
January 17th, 2013
3:06 pm
Redcoat, are you one of those birther idiots like Donnie Combover?
When I think of the boobs you cons look up to and who you want to lead you, it is no wonder you are getting crushed like c-ckroaches these days…
Jm
January 17th, 2013
3:06 pm
Oh yeah
We can talk about fascism now too
td
January 17th, 2013
3:06 pm
Seriously Folks
January 17th, 2013
2:36 pm
Ok td, I’ll bite on the “list of things”
“1) National registry of “automatic weapons”..aka assault rifles, to be held by your local Sherrif’s office
(does NOT include shotguns, or anything holding less than 10 bulletts)”
Very few citizens have automatic weapons and everyone is fully registered with the Feds now.
“2) Mandatory training for usage, storage and safety for all “automatic weapons” aka assault rifles to be completed annually at no charge to the gun owner”
What problem is this going to solve? I took the NRA course on gun safety prior to getting a hunting license in Georgia so it is no big deal one time but I think every year is punitive.
“3) Extend registration of “private gun sales” to include a simple transaction to occur at local Sherrif’s office (similar to when you buy a car, you have to both be present to turn over the title)”
Why, what would this solve?
“4) Require all former felons to register any firearms purchased since release”
Felons in most states can not own guns legally. I would support that same law enacted in every state.
“5) Additionally minimum 20 years to sentence of any gun-related crimes (robbery, rape, drugs, whatever)”
NRA has supported this measure for the past 20 years.
“6) Move rating of any “gun related” video games from “T” to “M”…”
What is this going to do? Most of these games are bought by the parents for the kids anyway.
“7) Teach gun safety in public schools”
Fine with me as long as the trainers are members of the NRA.
“8) Require any new gun be sold with a gun lock”
Gun locks defeat the purpose of protecting one self.
“9) Allow mental health professionals to report to local authorities anyone they suspect as “unstable” that has mentioned owning a gun, murderous thoughts (they have to report anyone that claims to be a pedophile)”
Already the law in most states.
BigD
January 17th, 2013
3:08 pm
This is hilarious to see the same sad, stupid liberals on here after not looking at this joke of a site for months. First impression: you are not any smarter, you’re even more embolden with your idiot statements because there are now enough of you idiots to elect a failed president and aspiring Communist dictator so “you must be right” …NOT! I’m glad I don’t have enough free time to send you into imbecile free fall and make you want to get out of your pajama’s and strangle me. For the most part it is painfully obvious most of you are ignorant to a point where for the first time I really feel our country is doomed. I am glad I have the resources to avoid what most of you will endure. Remember you did this to yourself, no one now to blame. As for the 2nd Amendment being an excuse for “treason” Mr. Bookman has again reversed the intent, the 2nd is a cure for TYRANY. Why don’t you just get your nose tattooed brown and and dispense with the objectivity ruse. LOSERS…HAHAHAH.
Fred ™
January 17th, 2013
3:08 pm
Moonbat: Thanks. They turned out great. I thought you did a typo on the “libs” until I got to the cons. Freaking hilarious. Have you ever heard the BBQ Song?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ubTQfr_tyY
Paddy O
January 17th, 2013
3:08 pm
cheesy grits – did not realize the educated liberals here were so vulnerable to idiotic conspiracy stories. interesting.
getalife
January 17th, 2013
3:09 pm
They can’t hear you.
Organize protests and bring your guns.
I will go to cheer you on cons.
southpaw
January 17th, 2013
3:10 pm
JHM @2:28
I’m not going to argue that “militia” definitely has two different meanings, one in Article 1 and one in Amendment 2. Assuming that it’s the same thing, I will say that Federalist #29 is useful in helping interpret Amendment 2, and leave it at that.
One other observation, and I’ll defer to your expertise on this. I’ll predict that “portability” (for lack of a better term) of same-sex marriage will go the same way as portability of common law marriage. Texas, for example, recognizes what it calls an “informal marriage,” and several other states recognize common law marriage. Georgia and several other states don’t. If a man and woman with a common law marriage in one state moves to another state that doesn’t recognize it, are they considered married in their new home state? I’m guessing they aren’t, but I could be wrong.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
January 17th, 2013
3:10 pm
yeah, run out and buy all those spoilable necessities.
The beer will be gone long before it will spoil.
Jm
January 17th, 2013
3:10 pm
Or Mali
Or Algeria
Or the debt ceiling
NRA-TV is tired
Stevie Ray
January 17th, 2013
3:10 pm
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
January 17th, 2013
3:03 pm
He sure did! He followed the recommendations of his aides based on options made possible by the reparation of the intelligence networks beaten down by Clinton.
Sometimes you timing is impeccable. Too bad he couldn’t get in front of the cameras fast enough. Perhaps we could have keep that recovered data underwraps for a fraction of a second…
Robert
January 17th, 2013
3:11 pm
@td – td, Thank you for taking off your sheet, hood and combat boots. Your family, friends and neighbors know who you are (coward hiding behind a gun). It takes tremendous courage to act like a Man and not like a child. Your comments prove you act like a child. If you own gun(s) I really hope the State of GA did a background check on you. Obviously you need a mental health screening and a anger management class.
I hope you have a job and health insurance to pay for a mental health screening and I hope your job has a anger management program you can enroll in. Right know you family, friends, neighbors and co-workers are in danger if you are a registered gun owner with mental health and anger management problems at home and at work.
Joe Hussein Mama
January 17th, 2013
3:11 pm
J. Daly — “Joe Hussein Mama I really hate to tell you, but dissenting opinions have no force of law, otherwise I would quote the dissent as my reason for not complying with Obamacare.”
Given that Heller didn’t decide all the things that pro-gun folk seem to think it did, and given that dissenting opinions often find their way into later, related *majority* opinions, I’d be careful with that line of reasoning if I were you.
“As to the militia question, the holding says: (a) The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2–22.”
I’m aware of that. I think it was wrongly decided. In short, the majority simply dispensed with the qualifying language rather that find an explicit Constitutional justification for their position.
“(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense.”
In other words, SCOTUS found that Congress had the power of universal and compulsory conscription into the military (see Article 1, Section 8). Surprise!
“The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule.”
That’s why there’s no provision for a standing army to be constituted for longer than two years (again, per A1, S8).
“The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved. Pp. 22–28.” If you go to the pages referenced you will find a more complete explanation.”
And here, the argument is that it’s an *unenumerated* right, which is one of the two ways I’ve been saying — for the last WEEK — that one could justify it without finding explicit Constitutional language supporting it.
Paddy O
January 17th, 2013
3:12 pm
reverie – good post. liberals like the big gov’t solution to risk free life. regardless of the cost or sustainability – or whether the proposed “do something” progressive steps (knee jerk) actually solve let alone address the problem.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
January 17th, 2013
3:12 pm
LOSERS…HAHAHAH.
MITT ROMNEY SAYS, “WHAT?”
stands for decibels
January 17th, 2013
3:12 pm
Some good ideas but most of us will never willingly register our weapons.
Why do you say that? I’ve seen quite a few polls that indicate a majority of gun owners have no problem at all with it.
here’s the first that popped up in a search, it’s citing a 2008 poll, I’m sure there are plenty more:
http://www.bradycampaign.org/xshare/pdf/memo-11-18-08.pdf
(that one shows 60% of gun owners saying they’d support “Registration of gun sales and licensing of gun owners”).
getalife
January 17th, 2013
3:13 pm
jm,
Start your own blog if you can’t stomach watching your cons commit treason.
Jm
January 17th, 2013
3:13 pm
Lisa Jackson leaving EPA
So many topics, so little time
Adam
January 17th, 2013
3:13 pm
failed president and aspiring Communist dictator
Not intended to Be a Factual Statement
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
January 17th, 2013
3:14 pm
The NRA is nothing more than a shill for the Gun Industry.
Their only concern is not gun safety.
But protecting their corporate masters profits.
Jm
January 17th, 2013
3:15 pm
Get
We’re off page 1
Paddy O
January 17th, 2013
3:15 pm
jamvet – you realize 24 states are run by repubs govs & repub legislatures? this mandate fiction simply is not accurate. however, Fox news assertion that libs only make up 25% of the populace is incorrect; many libs are ashamed, thus self categorize as moderate. At this point, I suspect libs are about 40%; cons about 35%.
Aser706
January 17th, 2013
3:15 pm
PLEASE ANSWER SOMEONE:
A “criminal” is one having a disregard for laws/rules/authority.
Okay.
So, to deter criminal activity law(s) should be put in place?
To me: First thought suggest that a criminal takes an advantage over those that will abide the law(s)…. I
Stevie Ray
January 17th, 2013
3:15 pm
Reverie
January 17th, 2013
3:05 pm
Because that is the single pitch many of those can muster. Consider the jabs as a badge of courage…those you refer to have nothing of value to add excepting the obligatory “cons suck” “cons are stupid” “you get your info from FAUX news…”
fortunately there are many with whom dialogue is possible. Also note, the righties are just as quick on the attack as lefties in equal proportions…IMO anyway
stands for decibels
January 17th, 2013
3:16 pm
Jm, any thoughts on the efforts of those Obama-majority states run by GOPers trying to get their electoral votes re-allocated?
http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2013/01/14/reince_priebus_gop_s_electoral_vote_split_scheme_would_give_more_local_control.html
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
January 17th, 2013
3:16 pm
… or whether the proposed “do something” progressive steps (knee jerk) actually solve let alone address the problem.
Robert and Mary Schindler say, “What?”
ITS ALL BUSH'S FAULT
January 17th, 2013
3:16 pm
NRA says more guns = more safety , we should already be the safest country on earth. Dumbasses…
Stevie Ray
January 17th, 2013
3:16 pm
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
January 17th, 2013
3:14 pm
Truer words have never been spoken….they are shills for manufacturers and ATM’s for politicians on both sides..
Paddy O
January 17th, 2013
3:16 pm
kam – cold weather WON’T SPOIL the beer.
ITS ALL BUSH'S FAULT
January 17th, 2013
3:17 pm
GOP = GUNS OVER PEOPLE
Adam
January 17th, 2013
3:17 pm
Aser706: So, to deter criminal activity law(s) should be put in place?
A criminal is by definition someone who breaks laws. To say we shouldn’t have a law because criminals break laws is a tautological argument. It is, therefore, a useless argument.
Por ejemplo: People still murder, so we shouldn’t have murder laws, because some people still murder.
Jm
January 17th, 2013
3:18 pm
Get
As a matter of fact we’re on something like page 20 of NRA-TV
Majtom85
January 17th, 2013
3:20 pm
Independent thinker–I agree with you on what the law should be. But the minority opinion is just that. Nevertheless, Heller’s majority finds that the government can limit the kind of firearms the People can have, and who a “person” is. A felon, for this purpose, is not a person, thought he is a human being and is entitled a myriad of other rights. He may or may not be able to vote or hold a position of public trust. Scalia says a person can possess guns, but not a flamethrower, a .50 caliber machine gun, for instance–if you read what he’s saying. All guns sales going through a gun dealer, like cars? Why not? The gun dealers won’t mind that–surely they’ll make some nice fees to assuage their hurt feelings. It’s a good start.
Jm
January 17th, 2013
3:20 pm
Sfd
I think I’m against winner take all
But I don’t know what should replace
Probably proportional allocation
But I think states should pair up (blue red) when doing this so it doesn’t get construed as unfair
Fred ™
January 17th, 2013
3:20 pm
Reverie
January 17th, 2013
3:05 pm
Why can I not defend my point of view without being maligned as a lunatic, bigot, racist, or redneck? I don’t get my information from FoxNews or Limbaugh or for that matter CNN or NPR. I get my news from everyone and I consider all sides of the issue.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Don’t you love huw the same “thinkers” who post crap like this will only seconds later post talk radio/FOXBOT crap like this:
History shows that the left believes in the power of incrementalism. Start slow and chip away at civil liberties. I don’t trust my government to protect me or my rights any more. I don’t trust the press to tell the entire story, to pursue truth or to fairly depict the opposition to left wing causes. The press preys upon the weak minds of our nation to convince us to give up our freedoms and responsibilities in favor of the illusion of safety and security.
Here we get form this “fair minded individual, the evil left chipping away at liberties. You know like that leftist president, George Bush and his Patriot Act, preyed upon the weak minds of our nation, the republicans freedoms and responsibilities. And then he goes into the evil left main stream media covering it all up……… classic Rush Limbaugh and FOXBOT.
They always give themselves away. They are so programmed they can’t help it. But free thought is strong in this one, I saw a little bit of free thinking at the end of his post………
ITS ALL BUSH'S FAULT
January 17th, 2013
3:20 pm
Lapierre is a tool..
JamVet
January 17th, 2013
3:21 pm
BigD, rhetorical question.
Why do you stuck on 1950s stupid cons revere Joseph McCarthy so much?
Communists? Really? You sheep are STILL cowering before the Red Scare?
Wow, talk about a low IQ.
You did hear that that Wisconsin scumbag’s witch hunts and ideology died a horrific death, right?
If you had stayed away during high school American history that is…
DawgDad
January 17th, 2013
3:21 pm
“Guns don’t overthrow tyranny or guarantee liberty. People do.”
Of course. Discovering I agree with something you say, Jay, triggers a re-examination of your article for the hidden agenda or real intent. Didn’t have to do so in this case as it’s perfectly clear what’s going on here.
People opposed to further controls on guns by and large (almost universally) are law abiding citizens sitting here minding their own business. The criminals are irrelevant, because by definition they will skirt the laws to suit their purpose. The leftists are picking a fight with law-abiding citizens, citizens who understand the principles of our constitution and its rationale. The right, cons, GOP, NRA, whoever, are NOT the ones picking this fight, and are not the ones shooting up school rooms. Period.
You want a fight, you’ve got one. Keep on demagoguing children, and dead children at that. Very demonstrative of who and what you are.
Aser706
January 17th, 2013
3:21 pm
Adam:
Specifics would have caused the question to be ignored… Perhaps I did over-simplify.
Jm
January 17th, 2013
3:21 pm
Sfd
Btw I couldn’t read your link
But I assume your referring to end of winner take all in red states
stands for decibels
January 17th, 2013
3:21 pm
NRA says more guns = more safety , we should already be the safest country on earth.
Let’s see–since our murder rate is four times that of Canada, then it should logically follow that we need four times as many guns as we have now. Easy peasy. Make it so! What’s that–another… 540,000,000 pieces.
I guess we could knock out some cheap derringers and single-shot rifles to pad the numbers a bit, keep costs down.
Fred ™
January 17th, 2013
3:22 pm
Robert
January 17th, 2013
3:11 pm
@td – td, Thank you for taking off your sheet, hood and combat boots. Your family, friends and neighbors know who you are (coward hiding behind a gun). It takes tremendous courage to act like a Man and not like a child. Your comments prove you act like a child. If you own gun(s) I really hope the State of GA did a background check on you. Obviously you need a mental health screening and a anger management class.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
LOL Lil Bobby is a one thrick pony trolling around for comments. Gotta love it. Here goes another moron into the ignore/scroll past pile.
It makes the blog so much faster to read when you scroll past the dumb asses.
Adam
January 17th, 2013
3:22 pm
Jm: I think I’m against winner take all
But I don’t know what should replace
Probably proportional allocation
If we adjust it in the manner suggested, results will most likely be contrary to the popular vote. We might as well just make it a straight popular vote thing if we’re going to screw with electoral votes.
Itchy Finger
January 17th, 2013
3:22 pm
JamVet
Itchy, if you fraidycats, birthers and candyasses are dumb enough to spend all of your money on that stuff, it appears you are the ones being being played.
Again.
Not if your a bullet maker like me….. Dunce….
getalife
January 17th, 2013
3:22 pm
Ah, it is too cold for the old cons to protest.
Whaaaaaa.
Just blog away cons.
Weak.
Fred ™
January 17th, 2013
3:24 pm
Stevie Ray
January 17th, 2013
3:06 pm
Fred ™
January 17th, 2013
3:02 pm
Not for nothing but most every psychiatrist will tell you that arrogance is simply a cover for insecurities….guns can help and I’m wondering exacty what style Hummer or Corvette this dude drives…Thoughts?
+++++++++++++++++++++++
A 1993 Hyundai that his mom makes him park on the street. He is also not allowed to use the door around back to sneak into his room in the basement, he has to come in and see her first……..
Brosephus™
January 17th, 2013
3:24 pm
What problem is this going to solve? I took the NRA course on gun safety prior to getting a hunting license in Georgia so it is no big deal one time but I think every year is punitive.
If it’s no big deal, I’m sure you’d have no problem with your local pd and sherriff’s dept dropping their annual/quarterly/semi-annual recertificiation process. I’m sure you’d have no problem petitioning Georgia P.O.S.T. to drop the requirement for officers to have to recertify and retrain because they’ve done it once already too.
Gun safety is an ongoing non-stop event. Just because you “think” you know something can make you the prime candidate to be hurt in an accident. Hubris kills more than anything else.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
January 17th, 2013
3:24 pm
Not if your[sic] a bullet maker like me….. Dunce….
Oh, the irony.
godless heathen
January 17th, 2013
3:25 pm
stands: This is an honest question, because I really don’t understand. Other than knowing where to come get them, what is the purpose of gun registration? Gun sales are already recorded.
stands for decibels
January 17th, 2013
3:25 pm
But I assume your referring to end of winner take all in red states
well, if it were *red* states (i.e., Texas?) doing this, I’d just chuckle, but we’re talking Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Virginia.
Strange the link didn’t open. Here’s another bit of coverage.
http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2013/01/15/16527252-rnc-backs-radical-electoral-vote-schemes?lite
stands for decibels
January 17th, 2013
3:27 pm
We might as well just make it a straight popular vote thing if we’re going to screw with electoral votes.
WE should’ve made it a straight popular vote about two hundred years ago, but better late than never. The manner in which we elect a President is an international embarrassment.
Seriously Folks
January 17th, 2013
3:29 pm
@td. Thanks for the “civil” response…at least there were substantive rebuttals. Like I said, I have no idea what is already being done, and if needs to be ramped up, pushed to the front, then fine…
In answer to your responses on some of my suggestions:
“require private sale registrations”…look I think (again MY opinion) that it would be much more effective to protect “law abiding” gun owners from having their guns stolen and sold. Again, if we are to have the resources to “go after the bad guys” wouldn’t it help to KNOW who the bad guys are? Or at least be able to know who the AREN’T? Heck, we hold bar-tenders liable if they serve too much alcohol as contributing to whatever comes next….(and i am NOT saying that you are responsible for whatever you gun does whether you still own it or its sold or its stolen)
And as far as the training goes, I think law-enforcement training would give a better way to teach “situational” reactions…one thing to know HOW to shoot…totally another to know IF to shoot!
As my grandfather taught me…”it is important for a man to know how to fight…even MORE important for you to know WHEN to fight”
Again, thanks for the response and the additional suggestions….
Joe Hussein Mama
January 17th, 2013
3:30 pm
Seriously Folks — “Hey JMH, I took on the “challenge” too and offered a list…think we have some of the same thoughts…who would have thought “progressives” would actually respect someone’s right to own a weapon, just ask that they have some sort of responsibility with that ownership!”
FWIW, I was a Republican for 20+ years of my adult life. My first vote for President was for Reagan in 1980, and I enlisted in the Army during his Administration. So please, don’t think that “progressive” automatically means that someone is knee-jerk opposed to conservative principles. I have a degree of sympathy for them, so long as they’re not expressed in a hostile ‘f**k you’ manner.
I’m in favor of gun control, but I’m also a gun owner.
I’m an atheist, but I think government should leave churches and churchy people alone.
I’m a non-smoker, but I don’t care if others chain-smoke (just so long as I can stand clear of it).
I like my liberty and I think most other Americans like theirs. And I’m sure they don’t want to be told what to do any more than I would care to be told what to do.
Adam
January 17th, 2013
3:31 pm
godless: Other than knowing where to come get them, what is the purpose of gun registration? Gun sales are already recorded.
Registration has a similar purpose to cars. The government isn’t confiscating your cars, they are just keeping track of how many there are and so on. These statistics serve a variety of purposes.
But really, what’s the problem? If you fear government is going to come take your guns, then just be a criminal and don’t register them. After all, FREEDOM!
Seriously though the registration isn’t about confiscation. That is just a fear based reaction. It is mostly going to be used to track where a gun goes after it is used to commit a crime. Even if you, as a private person, have your gun stolen or sell it, and that person does not register it, the initial registration helps track down what happened. If you sold it, you can be helpful in solving a crime committed by said gun. If it was stolen, you can be helpful in helping solve a crime committed by said gun.
DownInAlbany
January 17th, 2013
3:31 pm
According the latest Gallup survey, which was taken after the Sandy Hook murders and Wayne LaPierre’s press conference, the NRA, despite being demonized 24/7 in the media, enjoys a favorability rating of 54%. Today, according to Gallup, Obama’s approval rating sits at 53%.
Moreover, only 38% of those polls have an unfavorable opinion of the NRA. Obama’s disapproval rating sits three points higher at 41%.
I guess the poll must have been skewed with uneducated, toothless southern redneck KKK members, huh?
captguitarman
January 17th, 2013
3:32 pm
I agree with your premise to a point, and Scalia certainly enforced it in his opinion, which was if not absolutely constitutionally sound, certainly pragmatic. One thing to remember is that history has taught is that those fighting tyranny may have small arms and be at great disadvantage at the start, but those weapons, cleverly and tactically used, can make it possible to capture more powerful and sophisticated arms — as Washington did prior to surrounding the City of Boston with captured British cannon and forcing Howe and the British Navy to depart for New York. The American rebels had only muskets and pistols at the beginning, but acquired cannon from the Brits all along the way.
But, despite that, no citizen led attemp in the modern day any where could succeed without the support of a sympathetic military. And that is why America is fortunate that its military definitely leans right, especially since the Vietnam War and since Carter gutted it during his adminstration to a point where we could not even conceive then of the types of actions we routinely take today — because Reagan, Bush, and Bush II built the military back up.
And I say that it is fortunate because it is beyond doubt that Obama and his Dem/Lib allies and supporters are determined to carry out the greatest centralization of federal government power in American history, including FDR. The Dem/Libs, apparently uninformed of the underlying bedrock principle of American government, as envisioned by the fore fathers, i.e. all government power comes fromt the consent of the governed, and to assure that, there is a separation of powers, all equal, but all accountable to the people due to a system of checks and balances.
This nation is being governed today, and it will get worse, by executive orders. Why? To circumvent Congress. Why? Because Congress won’t behave as Obama wants it to behave and that is causing problems imposing his will and his agenda, i.e. nothing (he and the Dem/Libs and supporters want) is getting done. The answer to that is, well, that is what the people want. When they want all of Obama’s policies put into place, they will choose a Congress that will go along with it. But, Obama won the popular vote by 3.0 + percent, and while he and the Dem/Libs can talk about a “mandate” all they want, it is a fantasy. 46.0% of the electorate voted against him.
Second Amendment aside, the most completely aggravating and ineffective thing about all of this “gun control” going on now has been the knee jerk reaction of the Dem/Libs to immediately go after the rights of law abiding gun owners in the wake of a tragedy instead of after those who break the law with guns. And like clock work, to create more and more rules and regulations that only law abiding owners who do not engage in these horrific and criminal acts will obey. A million more laws, regs, and rules will not stop those who already ignore them from continuing to ignore them. Will it make things tougher for them? Sure. But they will find a way.
Criminals who commit gun violent crimes should not see the light of day again for decades. Do that long enough, and the problem will start to disappear. With the coarsening and increasing incivility and degradation and secularization of the culture, now with a super charger in place called the Internet, it is the only thing that will really work. Dealing with the mentally disturbed and their access to guns is also a problem, with less clear answers, but a comprehensive approach will be required to solve that.
Adam
January 17th, 2013
3:32 pm
BTW, semantic nazis on my 3:31p, treat “Committed by said gun” as “Committed WITH said gun.” Thanks.
stands for decibels
January 17th, 2013
3:32 pm
GH @ 3.25, I recognize any question from you, directed to me, as being honest. FWIW.
My understanding is that our national knowledge of where / when / how guns are sold, kept, etc., is patchwork at best. I believe that having up to date statistical information that could be used with law enforcement and epidemiological number crunchers would provide us with a more secure, safer country.
I think having a murder rate that is four times that of Canada and the UK is absolutely unacceptable. I don’t think that gun registration / restriction will be the sole, or even primary, means by which we can close that gap, but it is worth making the effort to see what it can do.
SB, ALT
January 17th, 2013
3:32 pm
You gun nuts are really amazing with your so-called defense of the 2nd amendment. Which one of you can provide an honest explanation of why you need an assault weapon that fires 30-60 rounds per second? Can you also explain why you think an armed guard or teacher will stand a chance against it?
Are you really stupid or so blinded by hatred of the President you can’t think straight?
Adam
January 17th, 2013
3:34 pm
According the latest Gallup survey, which was taken after the Sandy Hook murders and Wayne LaPierre’s press conference,Obama enjoys a favorability rating of 53% despite being lambasted in the media for over 4 years.
FYT
stands for decibels
January 17th, 2013
3:35 pm
DownIn, I’d like a cite for your Gallup info.
Here’s somethign I just dug out:
http://www.businessinsider.com/nra-approval-ratings-press-conference-gun-control-video-games-media-2013-1
The overall favorability rating of the NRA has plunged in the last month, putting its image in a negative light for the first time.
In separate polls conducted by Public Policy Polling and the Washington Post/ABC News, the association’s favorability ratings sit underwater with the majority of Americans.
The PPP poll shows a big shift from before CEO Wayne LaPierre’s press conference, which cast blame on the media, and violent video games and movies for the elementary-school massacre in Newtown, Conn., last month. Before the press conference, 48 percent of Americans viewed the organization in a positive light, compared with 41 percent who viewed it unfavorably.
After the press conference and a subsequent appearance on “Meet the Press,” the NRA’s favorability shifted to a 42-45 negative split — a 10-point swing in three weeks.
Morality?
January 17th, 2013
3:35 pm
Jay has opened to door – TREASON! The American Revolution, Viet Nam, Afghanistan, etc. etc. etc. The “enemy” had the sophisticated weapons and the finances – Great Britain, USSR, USA.. when the will of the people is against you sophisticated weapons are not enough. Just think now Jay – IF Obama gives an order to gun down citizens of the USA because they oppose him and the military REFUSES that order then Obama is powerless to carry it out. This has happened time and time again throughout history. The power lies with the people – not Obama.
Silent Jay
January 17th, 2013
3:35 pm
Thousands of dead fish have now washed up on shore along the coast of South Carolina. Today the NRA said that this wouldn’t have happened if those fish had guns.
Joe Hussein Mama
January 17th, 2013
3:36 pm
Seriously Folks — “First of all, that is MY list. I don’t own a gun, but have no qualms with anyone owning whatever they want….just realize your RIGHT comes with RESPONSIBILITY….”
Hey, I just remembered another one. My wife and I were kicking this one around.
If you *use* any kind of insanity or mental disease/defect defense in a court proceeding — whether you’re acquitted or not — you are VOLUNTARILY relenquishing your right to own any firearms whatsoever for at least 10 years.
IOW, if you kill your wife with a monkeywrench and at your trial you go ‘I didn’t know what I was doing, it all happened so fast, I don’t even remember what I did,’ then you’re going to lose your weapons and license EVEN IF YOU’RE ACQUITTED. If you can’t keep your head on straight enough to remember that we don’t whack our spouses with heavy wrenches, then you don’t need to have any shootin’ irons around the house.
jack
January 17th, 2013
3:36 pm
“Today, that is no longer the case, and it hasn’t been the case for a century or longer. Around the world, governments have access to a range of weaponry that private citizens have no hope of matching or withstanding. There is simply no comparison between the brute, deadly force that a government can wield and that wielded by private citizens, individually or collectively. Technology has rendered that aspect of the Second Amendment a dead letter.”
Really? You better tell the Taliban, they didn’t get the memo.
Brosephus™
January 17th, 2013
3:36 pm
I guess the poll must have been skewed with uneducated, toothless southern redneck KKK members, huh?
They didn’t ask educated Southern Brothers like me. Neither one of those jackasses would have likely eclipsed 30% popularity had they asked people like me
Adam
January 17th, 2013
3:36 pm
Morality?: IF Obama gives an order to gun down citizens of the USA because they oppose him and the military REFUSES that order then Obama is powerless to carry it out.
Therefore, you don’t need powerful weapons to defend yourself against the government.
Oscar
January 17th, 2013
3:37 pm
The second amendment did not create the right to keep and bare arms. It spoke as if the right already existing. “The right to . . .” The amendment spoke to a pre-existing right which it prohibited the government to infringe.
Redcoat
January 17th, 2013
3:38 pm
Stevie Ray……..I don’t know……another liberal exception? Not required for an abortion either…….?
1776
January 17th, 2013
3:38 pm
@ Michael (09:54, 1/17/13) – You sir (like your sheeplized lemming pals here) will make a fantastic slave in the soon coming dystopia. So many zombified dupes think everything is “fine & dandy” & can’t see the Republic is quickly imploding. When the (fiat) U.S. dollar finally is collapsed, you’ll be standing in a bread line or “selling yourself” for a few scraps of food…because your filthy lucre will be truly worthless.
Fred ™
January 17th, 2013
3:39 pm
DownInAlbany
January 17th, 2013
3:31 pm
According the latest Gallup survey, which was taken after the Sandy Hook murders and Wayne LaPierre’s press conference, the NRA, despite being demonized 24/7 in the media, enjoys a favorability rating of 54%. Today, according to Gallup, Obama’s approval rating sits at 53%.
Moreover, only 38% of those polls have an unfavorable opinion of the NRA. Obama’s disapproval rating sits three points higher at 41%.
I guess the poll must have been skewed with uneducated, toothless southern redneck KKK members, huh?
+++++++++++++++++
And you got this where? Be honest now, tell us. I mean YOU actually initiated a data search and came up with this or you saw it on………..
Oh, and what does it matter? Please tell me how it is germane to the subject at hand. I’m curious because to me it’s immaterial. I don’t give a fat rat’s ass the percentage of people here that “approve” or disapprove of me here, it’s not going to change who I am or what I type.
stands for decibels
January 17th, 2013
3:40 pm
Gallup reports that dissatisfaction with gun laws has risen dramatically:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/159824/americans-dissatisfaction-gun-laws-spikes.aspx?ref=image
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
January 17th, 2013
3:40 pm
Therefore, you don’t need powerful weapons to defend yourself against the government.
But…but…but…Obama, criminals, WOLVERINES!, and SHUT UP!!
Adam
January 17th, 2013
3:40 pm
Oscar: The amendment spoke to a pre-existing right which it prohibited the government to infringe
That’s an assumption. Besides, even if rights are inherent, how do you enforce them if someone else disagrees?
Answer: government. Not God, not “natural rights.”
Jm
January 17th, 2013
3:40 pm
Sfd
Mental blip
Meant to say blue states
josef
January 17th, 2013
3:40 pm
Okay, the first comment is supposed to be on the topic.
Yawn…
Otherwise, anything of any note worth reacting to in the previous 1100 or so comments?
Seriously Folks
January 17th, 2013
3:41 pm
JHM…I put “progressive” in quotes for a reason….For too long those who shout the loudest seem to have the microphones..on BOTH sides of these debates. I agree with pretty much everything you laid out….
It just seems that sometimes any modest proposal is met with hostility no matter how innocuous it would seem.
I have long thought the demise of our society was the advent of the 24 hour news cycle…we now expect tough issues to be solved in 30 second sound-bites that stay in circulation for days! The sad part, the ones that actually bother to offer salient points on BOTH sides, seem to have more discourse that the people we even ELECT!!!!
Adam
January 17th, 2013
3:41 pm
jack: Really? You better tell the Taliban, they didn’t get the memo.
You think a “tyrannical” government is going to p*ssy foot around like we are doing right now in Afghanistan?
We would have nuked those suckers by now if we were tyrannical. Dodge THAT.
Adam
January 17th, 2013
3:42 pm
It just seems that sometimes any modest proposal is met with hostility no matter how innocuous it would seem.
And that’s a damn shame
Joe Hussein Mama
January 17th, 2013
3:42 pm
td — “Fine with me as long as the trainers are members of the NRA.”
When I was in high school, long about three geologic ages ago, Rifle Team was open to anyone taking ROTC as an elective. The ROTC instructors were the honchos and trainers for the team. Would you be okay with former servicemen as trainers, or are you firm on that NRA requirement?
FWIW, I wouldn’t have a problem with the NRA ’sponsor’ requirement in schools where there was no ROTC program available.
Fred ™
January 17th, 2013
3:42 pm
SB, ALT
January 17th, 2013
3:32 pm
You gun nuts are really amazing with your so-called defense of the 2nd amendment. Which one of you can provide an honest explanation of why you need an assault weapon that fires 30-60 rounds per second?
+++++++++++++++++++
Would you please direct me to a legally owned assault weapon in the US that can fire 30-60 rounds per second?
It’s folks like you who irrationally post stupid crap like that which make it hard to advance the conversation. Educate yourself on the item you supposedly hate BEFORE you post on it please. You are making things harder for us sane people who want sane gun control to make a rational case.
Lefty Dog
January 17th, 2013
3:42 pm
Jed Eckardt, I believe you’ve been reading history through the FOX News lens. Due to the sanctions imposed on Germany after WWI, Germany was suffering financially and its people were having a terrible time trying to exist in a country with no jobs, no manufacturing, no food (please, no debate on whether or not the sanctions were appropriate). This situation created the perfect opening for someone like Hitler, who rallied his people to hold their heads up high, brought manufacturing and prosperity back to Germany. The German people loved him, and, unfortunately, they turned a blind eye to the atrocities visited upon the Jews, homosexuals and anyone else not fitting into the Nazi image. If you want to read about what was really going on, there is a great book called IN THE GARDEN OF BEASTS by Erik Larson, which is a biography of our diplomat to Germany prior to WWII.
I couidn’t help but think of Cheney, Rove, Bolton and the rest of their gang while I was reading – not saying they reached the level of Hitler’s gang, but their lies and deceitfulness certainly did. Did you rant against the Bush team when they were in office? We let our constitutional rights fly right out of the window with that crowd, and did any Republican make a whimper? No. The Repubs have blocked every jobs bill the President has tried to get through. No president or Congress will ever take away “your guns” but I sure hope they take away assault rifles and extended magazines – nobody needs them for hunting. Nobody needs them to protect themselves. If you’re that paranoid – move to an island.
stands for decibels
January 17th, 2013
3:43 pm
Ok, I found the Gallup polling on the NRA.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/159578/nra-favorable-image.aspx
As of late Dec., Gallup says a modest majority have a favorable overall opinion of the organization.
However (emphasis mine):
Most Americans with a gun in their household have a favorable opinion of the NRA, but one-fourth do not — and 49% of those with a gun in the household say the NRA represents their views on guns only sometimes, or never.
Peace
January 17th, 2013
3:43 pm
Fred, RE: Robert @2:48,
Remember, you’ll never win a peeing contest with a skunk.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
January 17th, 2013
3:43 pm
Otherwise, anything of any note worth reacting to in the previous 1100 or so comments?
Delusional Lickspittle Party RULZ!
Joe Hussein Mama
January 17th, 2013
3:44 pm
Southpaw — “I’m not going to argue that “militia” definitely has two different meanings, one in Article 1 and one in Amendment 2. Assuming that it’s the same thing, I will say that Federalist #29 is useful in helping interpret Amendment 2, and leave it at that.”
Fair enough. We shall simply have to agree to disagree.
Majtom85
January 17th, 2013
3:44 pm
“Your right to swing your arm stops a my nose.” Works for your fist. You give me a broken nose, I go to the doctor. You go to jail. You use a Bushmaster with hundreds of rounds of frangible ammo, and swing it at my kid, there is no nose, no face, no head, just a carcass fit for crows. You not only robbed my child of everything, you made it impossible for me to grieve as we are accustomed, impossible to identify him or her except by clothing or DNA. No chance to say goodbye to anything but what resembles 3 day old road kill. Because you had a right to put your law above all other law and aspirations. And you did not even give the police the cold comfort of subduing you for trial or to kill you. You are fed with the poison of the Trolls like Alex Jones. You are a superhero. You are the Decider. You feed on resentments a 150 years old, and talk of revolt and secession from the best place in the world. You make other Americans say “I hate this nation sometimes.” Yes, The victory of the Trolls–to so disgust good people that they accept the unacceptable, the unthinkable. And most of all, you secession folk, you just can’t stand that there is an N-word in the White House, elected twice. You want disorder, chaos, resentment, anger, economic ruin, all so you can say, “now you’d better let me run things, or else.” That sounds like extortion or terrorism or treason to me. You trolls are like the child on trial for killing his parents who asks for mercy because he’s an orphan.
TBS
January 17th, 2013
3:45 pm
1776
When is your episode of “Doomsday preppers” going to air?
stands for decibels
January 17th, 2013
3:45 pm
Meant to say blue states
Did you know that, originally, red and blue were used by the TV network graphics people simply to indicate incumbent and challenger? It only became associate with Rep and Dem after the 2000 election focused so much attention on the maps.
JamVet
January 17th, 2013
3:45 pm
…Republic is quickly imploding…
Romney in a landslide.
Always bet against what the cons forecast…