War on drunk driving a model for reducing gun violence
What practical steps, within the protections of the Second Amendment, can we take to reduce mass killings and gun violence? Can such an effort even begin to make a difference in saving lives and preventing heartbreak?
Yes, it can. And we have a model of success to draw upon.
By 1982, more than 21,000 Americans were dying each year in alcohol-related accidents. Yet somehow by 2010, the number of fatalities caused by drunk driving had fallen to 10,228, a decline of more than half. We didn’t solve the problem, but clearly we have made substantial progress. We are saving more than 10,000 lives a year and preventing tens of thousands more from being crippled or maimed. Almost as important, over the years we have prevented tens of thousands of drivers from ruining their own lives by killing people while under the influence.
We did not achieve that progress by banning automobiles. We did not ban alcohol. In fact, no single dramatic change produced the turnaround. It was achieved through a broad, concerted legal effort backed by a fundamental change in what was deemed culturally acceptable
We required automakers to make their products safer, including then-controversial steps such as requiring airbags. We mandated use of seatbelts. We increased the legal liability of bars, taverns and restaurants that over-served customers, to ensure that those making money off the problem had some “skin in the game” in reducing it.
We instituted a national drinking age of 21, which reduced the number of minors involved in alcohol-related fatalities. In Georgia alone, the rate of such alcohol-related fatalities involving drivers under 21 fell by 63.7 percent from 2000 to 2010 We increased enforcement efforts, such as DUI roadblocks. We tightened licensing requirements and also nationalized databases, so that someone stripped of his or her license in one state for drunk driving could not be licensed in another state.
So how do you apply those lessons to gun safety? As with automobiles, you improve the safety of the devices themselves, for example by requiring the installation of trigger locks. (If Nancy Lanza had installed trigger locks in guns kept in a household with an unbalanced young man, she and 26 other people today in Newtown might still be alive.) You ban the sale, use or possession of high-capacity magazines, such as the 30-round mags that Adam Lanza used. And you ban altogether the sale or transfer of assault weapons. If someone wants to sell an existing assault weapon, they can sell only to the government.
As with automobiles, you require evidence that individuals know how to operate certain weapons before they can be licensed to use or possess them. The National Rifle Association points out, correctly, that those who go through gun-safety and marksmanship courses to qualify for concealed-carry permits in many states are rarely involved in crime. Why not extend that successful model to gun ownership in general? (Georgia, by the way, requires no gun-safety training and no evidence of gun-handling ability before granting permits to carry concealed weapons.)
In addition to licensing gun owners, you register weapons. (With some 200 million guns in private hands, the fear of a government effort to go door to door confiscating registered weapons is ludicrous paranoia.) If a registered weapon is used in a crime but was not reported stolen, the person to whom it is registered can be held civilly or even criminally liable. That’s responsible gun ownership, and would curtail the black market substantially.
One of the bigger deterrents to drunk driving is the significantly increased cost of auto insurance for those convicted. Bars and liquor stores with a history of over-serving also have to worry about increased insurance costs. If you make gun owners and sellers financially liable for any damage done with their weapons, you create a market-based incentive to be responsible.
None of those steps violates the Constitution; none prevents honest citizens from obtaining firearms for personal defense, hunting and other legitimate purposes. But together, they have the potential to dramatically reduce the number of deaths caused by firearm misuse.
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693 comments Add your comment
Chris Thomlinson
December 19th, 2012
9:35 am
Enter your comments here
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
December 19th, 2012
9:36 am
you most likely will have several holes in you courtesy of the guy that kicked down your door.
Buy doors that can’t be “kicked” down? They are a little more expensive.
UNCLE SAMANTHA
December 19th, 2012
9:36 am
fireworks are dangerous
do you know how many people go to the emergency room each year because of them
Willydoit?
December 19th, 2012
9:37 am
@Skipper 8:53
“I do feel as though the mom, rest her soul, bears some responsibility. She knew she had a major problem (her son) on her hands and certainly should not have left all those guns where he could get (and use) them.”
Not some responsibility…ALL. I will go further out on the limb. I am willing to bet money that “momma” bought those guns for her troubled little boy.
Thulsa Doom
December 19th, 2012
9:38 am
Theo
December 19th, 2012
9:23 am
The dem’s war on poverty hasn’t worked either. Should we ban the democratic party?
Theo do have a point he do. But we can’t ban the Dem party. How else would we be able to test really bad ideas to confirm that they really were bad ideas.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 19th, 2012
9:39 am
Hmmm, seems like some here do not believe in the “free market” and the impact of fees, taxes on the gun trade (along with other sensible gun control and safety laws). Those taxes and fees sure would help Newtown in the process of working with the survivors, dealing with having to relocate a school. And of course to some degree, the free market impact of a price increase would reduce some gun purchases or perhaps the number of guns owned by any single individual.
JohnnyReb
December 19th, 2012
9:39 am
Jay – thanks for writing some common sense. I do have further observation.
On Wilkow’s radio show yesterday, he referenced various news reports prior to the election that clearly showed the Left was planning to attempt to again ban semi-automatic rifles if Obama was reelected. This tragedy fell into their hands and boosts what was already their plot to strip citizens of Constitutional rights.
There are reports of news reel showing police removing a rifle from the trunk of the shooters car. If that is true, he either had two rifles or the semi-automatic tactical rifle that has the Left’s panties in a wad was never taken into the school. Hopefully this will be resolved soon.
Regardless of the shooter having the rifle in the school, there is a lot of misconception about the firearm. It is not automatic. It requires a trigger pull to fire each round. It does reload automatically so a trained person can fire many rounds in a short time. It looks military. I don’t agree with banning the high capacity magazines. Doing so would be smybolic only. To my knowledge, in most of these type cases the shooter stops firing when faced with being shot himself. Instead of carrying two or three 30 round magazines, he will carry as many 6 round as he can put in all pockets.
The rifles in question were banned once before with not enough affect to warrant extending the ban. Nothing has changed. This is political, not practical.
It’s not the rifle people. It’s the person.
And most infuriating is that some media who would be screaming to high heaven if the 1st amendment was under attack, doesn’t think twice in promoting tampering with the 2nd.
Ivan
December 19th, 2012
9:39 am
“If the gun owners name pops up a match you yank his permit and yes,,,,confiscate his guns”
And how does that stop someone else from shooting up a school?
OBIWAN
December 19th, 2012
9:39 am
Yes let Obama make laws about guns, he has a great record on his old district on the south side of Chicago. More murder by guns there every day than Iraq and Afghanistan combined…Yeah he has some great ideas… NOT…
Brosephus™
December 19th, 2012
9:40 am
Stevie Ray
I honestly don’t know or care how those stats came about. I simply posted that to give others an idea of where those stats came from and how long ago they were printed.
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
December 19th, 2012
9:40 am
Recon 0311 2533
December 19th, 2012
9:30 am
Step right up and offer the means and process of collecting that data…it is a bunch of BS..
Whether or not the kid was mental is irrelevant to me, most mental illnesses can’t really be treated over the long haul successfully…at least having outcomes that eliminate the risk completely. Access to an arsenal of guns exlusively made for killing is the issue.
It’s very difficult to produce multiple kills in a very short time span without these useless guns modeled after military issue…
At the end, we all know we will get next to nothing from congress of meaning. NRA throws around too much dough….maybe the teachers can actually get some utitility out of their otherwise useless unions and provide leverage to push for real, meaningful legislation..
Regnad Kcin
December 19th, 2012
9:40 am
“fireworks are dangerous
do you know how many people go to the emergency room each year because of them”
Not guns, though, apparently…
TaxPayer
December 19th, 2012
9:40 am
Trigger locks are useless to protect against home invasion. By the time you find the key to unlock that trigger, you most likely will have several holes in you courtesy of the guy that kicked down your door.
The law would require the home invader to have a trigger lock too so it will come down to which of you has the biggest pair. Or maybe the smallest.
Joe Hussein Mama
December 19th, 2012
9:41 am
Recon — “Call it like it is, Jay calls your post BS but he engages in BS for a living. In Jay’s left wing world Free Speech and Free Expression must be protected regardless of how ugly it is or what cultural ramifications might result.”
Per my 9:21, you haven’t the foggiest idea what you’re talking about.
skipper
December 19th, 2012
9:41 am
@Willydoit,
I believe that you are probably right………..
barking frog
December 19th, 2012
9:41 am
The government and bullet control
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/white-house-gives-cool-welcome-bill-restricting-online-182934423.html
Ivan
December 19th, 2012
9:42 am
“But together, they have the potential to dramatically reduce the number of deaths caused by firearm misuse”
Right. Because we just want to reduce the number of deaths? So…..if 10 kids were killed in the Newtown shooting, everyone would be ok with that, right?
Or would we further imply restrictions on law abiding civilians.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 19th, 2012
9:42 am
It may already be too late to stop the additional slaughters that are coming, the slaughter of children and other helpless people in an assortment of random places, but that doesn’t mean that we can simply give up.
Perhaps by the next decade, if this moment can be seized, we might start to turn the tide a bit.
But guns alone will not solve the underlying cultural sickness here.
There will have to be a reckoning with the underlying roots of the social tensions that permeate our life, above all the class war against working people by the corporate and government elites.
Thulsa Doom
December 19th, 2012
9:43 am
kayaker making too much sense @ 9:24.
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
December 19th, 2012
9:44 am
Brosephus™
December 19th, 2012
9:40 am
It is much easier to get the methodology underlying these stat’s to offer a compelling slap down. I can see no legitimate means of collecting an accurate data set to offer any such findings..
Of course I’m likely boring all with my actuarial approach…I’m a geek and that is my default setting..:-)
JohnnyReb
December 19th, 2012
9:45 am
“There will have to be a reckoning with the underlying roots of the social tensions that permeate our life, above all the class war against working people by the corporate and government elites.”
What a load of spoiled crap.
The only thing preventing a person’s success in America is the will and fortitude of the individual. Stop crying, blogging, and get to work.
Thulsa Doom
December 19th, 2012
9:45 am
“There will have to be a reckoning with the underlying roots of the social tensions that permeate our life, above all the class war against working people by the corporate and government elites”
I do love occupation’s daily variation of the “workers of the world unite” speech. It do go good with my morning coffee it do.
Ivan
December 19th, 2012
9:46 am
I drove by a man this morning who had a shotgun mounted to the back of his truck.
The man merged into the turning lane to pull into a hardware store. Not a school.
As I passed him, the gun didn’t try to shoot me.
Newtown was the result of person going off the deep end. Not a gun springing to life on its own.
Regnad Kcin
December 19th, 2012
9:46 am
Pardon my ignorance of the subject, but would it be possible to require the ammunition seller to laser-engrave the buyer SSN on each bullet before sale? The technology probably exists to do this safely and easily. It would not have prevented the incident in question, but might cut down on drive-bys, etc.?
Welcome to the Occupation
December 19th, 2012
9:46 am
Ivan: “Right. Because we just want to reduce the number of deaths? So…..if 10 kids were killed in the Newtown shooting, everyone would be ok with that, right?”
No. 10 slaughtered children is infinitely better than 20. And zero slaughtered children would be infinitely better than 10. Ad infinitum…
Such is the math of child slaughter, a mathematical formula which escapes the logic of the National Child Slaughter Association (NRA), which only knows one math: the math of the ever expanding profits of the firearm industry.
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
December 19th, 2012
9:47 am
TaxPayer
December 19th, 2012
9:40 am
It’s funny how it’s primarily those with guns who justify ownership due to the fear of home invasion…I bet in most cases, the gun owner is not really prepared to actually take a human life just because someone what trying to steal some stuff…I reckon most gun owners leave the doors unlocked at night so to have reason to pull that mock AK-47
Thulsa Doom
December 19th, 2012
9:47 am
“The only thing preventing a person’s success in America is the will and fortitude of the individual. Stop crying, blogging, and get to work.”
Yes. But its easier and more fun for occupation to bytch and whine about “the man” and his efforts to keep occupation chained up in his mom’s basement blogging all day every day.
Joe Hussein Mama
December 19th, 2012
9:48 am
J. Reb — “The only thing preventing a person’s success in America is the will and fortitude of the individual.”
Well said.
With that in mind, I look forward to the iminent cessation of your whiny and interminable posts about why Romney and the GOP lost in November.
Ben Shockley
December 19th, 2012
9:49 am
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Obama is selling his GM shares for $27, less than half of the $70 per share that he paid (using taxpayer money).
http://www.ajc.com/ap/ap/aerospace/general-motors-to-buy-back-200m-government-shares/nTZsM/
According to the AJC, “The deal almost certainly means that the government will lose billions ”
But, the unions got him re-elected, and that’s all that matters. So what if the taxpayers get soaked.
Rob_Rocker
December 19th, 2012
9:49 am
“If you make gun owners and sellers financially liable for any damage done with their weapons, you create a market-based incentive to be responsible.”
Jay-
Most of your suggestions are a bit over the top but this one takes the cake. That’s like suggesting that whoever sold the car to a person who was drinking and driving in it later, should be held financially and civally liable.
Unfortunately, strict gun control would leave law abiding citizens totally defenseless from those who obtain and use firearms illegally.
You cannot prevent people from committing horrible crimes like that in Connecticutt.
What about the millions of kids that die each year from abortion. No one raises a stink about that. Hey, let’s outlaw doctors so there won’t be anymore abortions. Um, better yet outlaw coathangers, outlaw sex….the list goes on.
UNCLE SAMANTHA
December 19th, 2012
9:49 am
the racist liberals must be stopped
allowing all those deaths in chicago
excerpt from the usa today
Jack Levin, a sociology and criminology professor at Boston’s Northeastern University, says it’s troubling that Chicago’s murder count is rising while it falls in other major cities. In 2010, Los Angeles had 297 murders, the lowest since 1967. New York homicides have been declining since 1990, when a record 2,245 fell in the nation’s largest city.
Mike
December 19th, 2012
9:50 am
Kayaker, that was a very good point. It seems odd to me too, that we ignore hundreds of “ghetto” killings, as if they are just part of life, but we go ballistic when it happens in the mostly sterile white suburbs.
Seriously Folks
December 19th, 2012
9:50 am
Funny how the staunchest defenders of 2nd Amendment rights, always say, “well if the victim was armed, then this would not have happened.” Folks. The shooters mother was armed. Yet, he shot her and 20 kids! SIX YEAR OLD KIDS FOR CHRISTS SAKE! And, as has been reported, she was of the same ilk as some on here..”the government is coming for my guns and I am going to be prepared for the anarchy!!!” Mentally unstable people do not need easy access to assault weapons!!!! Its sad that the mere MENTION of extending background checks, or mental health testing, makes them clutch tighter to their guns and scream “OBAMA IS A NAZI.” And as one poster put it, easy to cling to your guns when one of the 20 wasnt your kid.
too little time
December 19th, 2012
9:50 am
Why not extend that successful model to gun ownership in general? (Georgia, by the way, requires no gun-safety training and no evidence of gun-handling ability before granting permits to carry concealed weapons.)
Concealed carry permits have become a problem…. since when? Crime rates among concealed carry permit holders is lower than that of law enforcement itself. It’s not non-existent, but you have an infinitely better chance of getting killed by a driving-and-texting teenager than by a concealed carry permit holder. Further, MOST of the death from concealed carry occur as murder-suicides. If you are not a family member of a concealed carry permit holder, you have almost ZERO chance (literally about 1 in a billion… you have better chances of winning Powerball) of being killed by one. And training would not help in the least…
Ivan
December 19th, 2012
9:50 am
“So CFBF, are you saying that machine guns should be legal? Tanks? Bombs? That would seem to be the case under your apparent interpretation, in which no restrictions or regulations can be tolerated because the right “shall not be infringed.”
Tell ya what, Jay. Let’s come up with a sound way of protecting the kids in school from psychotics, and then we’ll talk about the folks driving to schools with tanks.
Joe Hussein Mama
December 19th, 2012
9:51 am
R. Kcin — “Pardon my ignorance of the subject, but would it be possible to require the ammunition seller to laser-engrave the buyer SSN on each bullet before sale? The technology probably exists to do this safely and easily.”
Doubtful that such engravings would survive firing and impact. It’s my understanding that rifling and hammer markings (on spent rounds and shells) are a better way of matching rounds fired to the weapon that fired them, although not all rifles and handguns have their characteristics on file.
Madmax
December 19th, 2012
9:51 am
Granny Godzilla
December 19th, 2012
8:53 am
Madmax
I was hoping for some heart from you…..
I’m a patriot and a follower of the fisherman.
You appear to be a gun nut
and Granny – I have compassion, I have two girls, I don’t know if I’m a patriot but I believe in freedom and if you read my posts and stopped the banal insults you would have read that I haven’t owned a gun since I was a kid and I’m not a member of the NRA so no, I’m not a gun nut, I just believe the government has too much control over our lives and passing laws, however well intentioned they may be, just for the sake of doing something is a very stupid idea and is probably one of the major reasons we are in the financial mess we have today. We pass laws in knee jerk fashion, then just move on to the next fire and let someone else figure out what it means/should mean which leads to overloaded beauracracy and lots of work for lawyers trying to figure out what it really is.
Ben Shockley
December 19th, 2012
9:51 am
“If you make gun owners and sellers financially liable for any damage done with their weapons, you create a market-based incentive to be responsible.”
Great idea! Let’s do the same with welfare recipients who keep having more babies…i.e. hold them financially liable.
Recon 0311 2533
December 19th, 2012
9:51 am
“Per my 9:21, you haven’t the foggiest idea what you’re talking about.”
Joe, I did waste a minute of my time reading your 9:21, while I typically avoid reading your posts wasting that minute only reaffirmed that you have nothing substantive to say. But thank you for reading my posts and commenting even though you do have little to say.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 19th, 2012
9:52 am
Trigger locks are useless to protect against home invasion. By the time you find the key to unlock that trigger, you most likely will have several holes in you courtesy of the guy that kicked down your door
Biometric trigger locks would be the answer to prevent a child from accidently finding the gun and shooting themselves or another and yet to address the “concern” that the response has to be soooooo immediate that unlocking a trigger lock would take “too much time.” but of course, most home invasion self defense claims do NOT require immediate point and shoot and the homeowner has time to remove current trigger locks..
Thulsa Doom
December 19th, 2012
9:52 am
“Pardon my ignorance of the subject, but would it be possible to require the ammunition seller to laser-engrave the buyer SSN on each bullet before sale?”
As much identity theft as there is out there you now want ss #s on ammo? Seems like identifying a bullet would be a good idea on the surface. But it wouldn’t have mattered to this killer or the batman movie killer or the columbine killers. They didn’t care if you knew who they were after the fact. Plus guys who want to use them for criminal purposes can just pay a straw purchaser to buy the ammo for them and the straw purchaser can later just say the ammo was stolen or lost. Still not a bad idea though if it can be done fairly cheaply. It can’t hurt. But I wouldn’t want my social on it.
Mike
December 19th, 2012
9:53 am
Good one Ben!
Fred ™
December 19th, 2012
9:54 am
I read this today hoping to see some rational ideas but not really expecting to. Granny Godzilla made reasonable suggestions as did Jay in his lead, (although I didn’t like ALL his ideas). Other may have in the first 100 posts but I just skimmed those.
Mostly all I have seen is nonsense from both sides which is WHY we can’t ever get anything meaningful done in this Country any more. No one in their right mind wants to see something like this happen again. There HAS to be some middle ground here people. I love guns and shooting. Most fun I had all year was when a buddy took me trap shooting down in Clayton County this summer. It was a blast.
But we STILL need a few laws to stop some of this nonsense from happening. I know, when all the guns are outlawed only the outlaws will have guns right? Wrong. Rather than bumper sticker talk radio phrases and MSNBC sound bites how about more of us actually think and present some REASONABLE ideas?
Me? I like Jay’s idea about REQUIRING training as a prerequisite for a carry and conceal permit. I’d go even further, require it for purchase of ANY firearm. A DD 214 (honorable discharge) would do for those like Scout, Del, JHM, myself, ect who served. Face it, you GET weapons training in the military. But I would also mandate a refresher course ever 5 or 10 years.
I liked Granny’s idea of renewing the license every so many years so that status can be updated.
I don’t like a ban on assault weapons but I could support a ban on high capacity mags. Although I doubt in this case it would have made a difference. I doubt 5 and 6 year old kids would have bum rushed this guy if he had to reload more, but it would have made a difference in the Movie shootings.
Please tell me how any of the things I just wrote infringe on our right to bear arms?
stands for decibels
December 19th, 2012
9:54 am
when someone is killed by a drunk driver in a cadillac escalade
SUE GM for the use of the weapon in the crime
An Escalade? Anything to get those rolling monuments to American stupidity off the road, I’m fine with.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 19th, 2012
9:54 am
JHM, how many times have we heard that Ftroop claim that they “scroll by” and yet they seem to take a lot of time to make snide commentary and respond.
Gale
December 19th, 2012
9:55 am
Good comment, Stevie Ray. I thought hard about that very thing with my very first hand gun, which my father gave me because I was working nights in a remote place. There was no reason to have it if I was not prepared to use it. I repeated the exercise with the shotguns, although those were only for sport. Would I kill someone if I felt it was necessary? It would sicken me to do it, but yes. Many of the people who buy the guns for fun should have that internal dialog. If the answer is no, do not keep the gun.
They BOTH suck
December 19th, 2012
9:56 am
Mike
Seems no different than when a blond haired girl goes missing. Both Greta on FOX and Nancy (Dis)Grace(d) on CNN will go on for days and weeks about it. Black & brown kids go missing and little to nothing………
Sensationalism as always sold and always will. Sad but true
TBone
December 19th, 2012
9:59 am
Einstein had a definition of insanity and that is what this is. More government regulation to appease the constituencies, see we did something about it. We better wake up and connect the dots here because attempting to solve problems before you have correctly defined them is a waste of resources.
stands for decibels
December 19th, 2012
9:59 am
What about the millions of kids that die each year from abortion. No one raises a stink about that.
well, except for the millions of online trolls who post this off topic sh-t literally every time a gun thread goes up.
skipper
December 19th, 2012
9:59 am
Don’t y’all love to hear the phrase “And the gun went off” during so many trials, investigations, etc.??? Put 500 guns of all types, from assault weapons, revolvers, shotguns etc. in a row, laid side by side and loaded. Not one will go off…..ever! Its always the shooter; do not forget that. That being said, a positive campaign on gun culture and safety would be a good thing. We have become to desensitized and need an awakening of some kind, though I am not sure which way is the best.
Ben Shockley
December 19th, 2012
9:59 am
“If you make gun owners and sellers financially liable for any damage done with their weapons, you create a market-based incentive to be responsible.”
I can’t stop laughing at this. A group of people (liberals) waging a massive campaign to make sure that no one has to take personal responsibility for anything in their lives now wants to hold gun owners and sellers financially responsible.
Classic.
Thulsa Doom
December 19th, 2012
10:00 am
“If you make gun owners and sellers financially liable for any damage done with their weapons, you create a market-based incentive to be responsible.”
Holy cow. I completely missed this gobbledeegook. Thass just plain crazy. Jay is talking about making the mfger responsibile for what someone else does with his product? Typical liberal mindset- shift the responsibility of a crime from the actual person who committed said crime to the mfger of a legal product.
I wonder if the Tutsis in Rwanda can sue the mfger of the machetes and hoes because they were the main instruments used in the slaughter of 800,000 of them. Jeez.
dbm
December 19th, 2012
10:00 am
Jay,
Is your definition of an assault weapon the one that seemed to be suggested in an earlier thread, any semiautomatic weapon with a detachable magazine?
Since there seems to be some difficulty with defining assault weapons, it would help if you would make that clear.
Chris Thomlinson
December 19th, 2012
10:00 am
Great article, full of wisdom. Will Rogers couldn’t have done better. Some things never change. In Will Roger’s day there was a mass murder of elementary schools children in 1927 in Bath Township, Michigan. The sad events in Bath have much in common with the sad business in Newtown . Jay, “Google” the “Bath School Disaster”. It might generate some thought.
Thulsa Doom
December 19th, 2012
10:02 am
“A group of people (liberals) waging a massive campaign to make sure that no one has to take personal responsibility for anything in their lives….”
Ben Shockley,
It is funny it is. But isn’t that what libs do? Make sure no one has to take personal responsibility for anything in their lives? It sure seems to resonate with their voters.
godless heathen - Law Abiding Citizen
December 19th, 2012
10:03 am
Quick weigh-in / drive by:
MADD model did not ban any kind of car or any kind of alcohol.
You do not have to be licensed to own a car, just to operate it on public streets. Essentially the same as gun laws now.
Punishment for committing a gun crime are already pretty severe, but if you want to increase penalties, fine by me. Building more prisons is always popular with liberals.
Good day.
indigo
December 19th, 2012
10:03 am
I see this problem as much, if not more, than the effort to stop cigarete smoking by putting warning labels on packs and public education.
One thing is crystal clear.
Gun manufacturers, like cigarete makers, will protect profits at all costs.
So, if the Govt. launches an all out effort to lower gun carnage, look for gun manufacturers to hire an army of lawyers and fight in court, tooth and nail, any and every effort to save lives at the cost of lower profits.
Money talks.
Theo
December 19th, 2012
10:04 am
How many teachers have benefitted from gun holding?
The California State Teachers’ Retirement System, which manages $155 billion in assets, was looking at whether its investments comply with the fund’s own social and ethical standards. The fund was found this week to have invested $600 million in the private equity firm Cerberus Capital Management, which owns gun maker Freedom Group International.
CalSTRS spokesman Michael Sicilia also disclosed Tuesday that the fund owns approximately $4 million in shares of Sturm, Ruger & Co. and $1.7 million in shares of Smith & Wesson Holding Corp., two publicly traded gun manufacturers.
Should we ban teacher retirements?
curious
December 19th, 2012
10:05 am
Looks like gun control isn’t going to be solved here today.
Let’s revisit Benghazi.
Huff Post, Dec 19, 2012
“Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R-Utah) acknowledged on Wednesday that House Republicans had consciously voted to reduce the funds allocated to the State Department for embassy security since winning the majority in 2010.
On Wednesday morning, CNN anchor Soledad O’Brien asked the Utah Republican if he had “voted to cut the funding for embassy security.”
“Absolutely,” Chaffetz said. “Look we have to make priorities and choices in this country. We have…15,000 contractors in Iraq. We have more than 6,000 contractors, a private army there, for President Obama, in Baghdad. And we’re talking about can we get two dozen or so people into Libya to help protect our forces. When you’re in tough economic times, you have to make difficult choices. You have to prioritize things.”
For the past two years, House Republicans have continued to deprioritize the security forces protecting State Department personnel around the world. In fiscal year 2011, lawmakers shaved $128 million off of the administration’s request for embassy security funding. House Republicans drained off even more funds in fiscal year 2012 — cutting back on the department’s request by $331 million. ”
Where is the outrage? To parahase USMC, I think.
Tea party prioritized; people died.
I see your president's 47% is at it, again....
December 19th, 2012
10:05 am
Related, regarding our ‘daily’ gun violence…
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/12/19/seven-charged-in-matteson-chuck-e-cheeses-brawl/
Class of '98
December 19th, 2012
10:06 am
Isn’t it necessary to present a valid, state-issued I.D. to buy a gun?
Why don’t liberals see this law as racist and discriminatory against the underprivileged?
Why don’t they see the need to have an I.D. to buy a firearm as the mean old white man’s way to keep minorities from having guns?
Thulsa Doom
December 19th, 2012
10:06 am
“Seems no different than when a blond haired girl goes missing. Both Greta on FOX and Nancy (Dis)Grace(d) on CNN will go on for days and weeks about it. Black & brown kids go missing and little to nothing”
they both suck,
I call it missing white girl syndrome. Sensationalism do sell it do.
Ben Shockley
December 19th, 2012
10:06 am
I think gun ownership is a choice, and therefore I think Obamacare should be forced to provide my ammunition.
Thulsa Doom
December 19th, 2012
10:06 am
“Seems no different than when a blond haired girl goes missing. Both Greta on FOX and Nancy (Dis)Grace(d) on CNN will go on for days and weeks about it. Black & brown kids go missing and little to nothing”
they both suck,
I call it missing white girl syndrome. Sensationalism do sell it do.
stands for decibels
December 19th, 2012
10:06 am
Me? I like Jay’s idea about REQUIRING training as a prerequisite for a carry and conceal permit. I’d go even further, require it for purchase of ANY firearm. A DD 214 (honorable discharge) would do for those like Scout, Del, JHM, myself, ect who served. Face it, you GET weapons training in the military. But I would also mandate a refresher course ever 5 or 10 years.
This.
Joe Hussein Mama
December 19th, 2012
10:08 am
Recon — “Joe, I did waste a minute of my time reading your 9:21, while I typically avoid reading your posts wasting that minute only reaffirmed that you have nothing substantive to say.”
Not a problem. I’ll just educate you now.
The assertion that Jay (and, by extension, journalists and liberals) are somehow overly or unreasonably defensive of First Amendment free speech rights simply doesn’t hold water when examined in light of American history. Many key SCOTUS cases have established that there is no right to free speech or to public dissemination (e.g. publication) of material that would be damaging to national security, to public order or even to a *venue* from which to express one’s views.
In other words, you have the right to speak. But you don’t have the right to be *heard,* and you don’t have the right to express yourself wherever, whenever and however you please — the noted “time, manner and place restrictions” repeatedly found and upheld by the SCOTUS. And where has any legitimate American journalist — such as Jay — has fought to override those restrictions in the last century?
You haven’t got the right to defame others, and I challenge you to demonstrate where any legitimate American journalist — such as Jay — has fought to be *able* to do that in the last century.
You haven’t got the right to incite others to criminal action, and I challenge you to demonstrate where any legitimate American journalist — such as Jay — has fought to be *able* to do that in the last century.
There are other ‘rights’ that you don’t have per the First Amendment, and if you’d like to go a few rounds, I’ll gladly challenge you to demonstrate where any legitimate American journalist — such as Jay — has fought to be *able* to exercise those ‘rights’ in the last century.
“But thank you for reading my posts and commenting even though you do have little to say.”
Why of course, Recon. I’ll be happy to educate you and bring you up to speed despite your unwillingness to actually shut your yap and anything. You’d do well to pipe down and clean the crap out of your ears son, because I *do* have a lot to say and because you don’t know a damned thing about this topic.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 19th, 2012
10:08 am
Fred: “Mostly all I have seen is nonsense from both sides which is WHY we can’t ever get anything meaningful done in this Country any more. No one in their right mind wants to see something like this happen again. There HAS to be some middle ground here people”
Complete bosh, Fred.
You can’t say there has been nonsense on both sides in this matter since, as on so many other issues, one side has simply decided for the most part to shut its mouth and let the extremists rule the issue. That’s why efforts to advance gun control, which used to be rather energetic, essentially died over the past decade. How many times did you hear the issue discussed in depth as a serious policy issue in the recent presidential election? It was completely off the radar screen.
So THAT is the reason that there is no “middle ground” on this issue.
A “middle ground” would probably look a lot like what Jay Bookman lays out above. But the resistance to even these sensible measures will be met with a ferocious onslaught of resistance from the thug lobby National Child Slaughter Association (NRA).
Ben Shockley
December 19th, 2012
10:09 am
“Looks like gun control isn’t going to be solved here today.
Let’s revisit Benghazi.”
Good idea! Looks like Barack has managed to get Petraeus and Hillary off the witness list. Who will be next to have an affair exposed or have a mysterious concussion?
john
December 19th, 2012
10:09 am
You wont see bookman or other anti-American gungrabbers mention this but…..there was an ATTEMPTED massacre at another movie theater. This time in San Antonio. Why wasnt it a massacre? Someone else had a gun and stopped it before it got started. If bookman had his way we would be reading about another massacre. But since a person with a gun stopped it they story doesnt get the coverage.
Cosby
December 19th, 2012
10:10 am
This is bull hockey…Lets make drugs illegal,,oh they are..how well has that worked? The latest at Sandy Hook is just a continued result of detoriation of the US Society. Hate Speech out of the White House, Occutards damaging public property with no punishment but praise from The White House and Congress, the same for Union goons in Wisconsin and Michigan and illegals in California. since LBJ we have created a “it is not my fault” society and no one is responsible for their actions. Even in Sandy Hook, excuses are coming in..the mother was a “single mom”..not sure how she got to be a mother..there had to be another party. she tried to be a “friend” to her son rather than a parent..but it was not her fault but the Gun..bull hockey..perhaps a chain saw massacare..then we would ban chain saws…time to put “Prayer” back in schools and responsibility back in society..but gun control makes better head lines right Jay?
Merry Christmas
Thulsa Doom
December 19th, 2012
10:10 am
“Gun manufacturers, like cigarete makers, will protect profits at all costs.”
So.
Crazy Peeps
December 19th, 2012
10:10 am
Johnny Reb
Over a dozen innocent children killed for no reason. Their lives take precedence over a minor encumbrance on the 2nd amendment.
Fred ™
December 19th, 2012
10:11 am
So which radio talk show host or FOXBOT commentator (or ALL of them), has been spouting the “Chicago gun violence is Obama’s fault” diversion? Too many idiots are fixated on this for them to have ALL simultaneously just “thunk it up on their own.” I mean there must be 40 posts about in the 260 here.
I know, no one that posts here EVER watches Fox or listens to talk radio, they just channel the talking points……..
Peadawg
December 19th, 2012
10:11 am
” If you make gun owners and sellers financially liable for any damage done with their weapons”
Can I sue McDonald’s b/c I got fat off of their product?
COME ON, MAN!!!
Recon 0311 2533
December 19th, 2012
10:13 am
Fred, to your point about magazine capacity and how it probably wouldn’t have made a difference because those innocent little children probably were frozen in shock. I’ve owned a Remington 742 30-06 for about 32 years that I once used for deer hunting. The 742 is a semi-automatic hunting rifle that can hold 4 rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber. A shooter with little ability other than knowing how to load and fire could go into a classroom with multiple loaded four round magazines and have a similar murderous effect as the sicko did at Sandy Hook. The first priority is protecting our children and there are best practice solutions beyond what’s in place now at most schools that could become standards that would be far more effective than simply banning certain guns and accessories.
Joe Hussein Mama
December 19th, 2012
10:13 am
Fred -’ “Me? I like Jay’s idea about REQUIRING training as a prerequisite for a carry and conceal permit. I’d go even further, require it for purchase of ANY firearm. A DD 214 (honorable discharge) would do for those like Scout, Del, JHM, myself, ect who served. Face it, you GET weapons training in the military. But I would also mandate a refresher course ever 5 or 10 years.”
“I liked Granny’s idea of renewing the license every so many years so that status can be updated.”
Agreed on all counts.
There were also a couple of ideas expressed that I thought were of value earlier:
*If you want to sell a semiautomatic weapon, you can only sell it to the government.
*ABC-style gun shops, where the government can run the show on registering, background checks, etc. so that legal compliance is *assured* to the buyer in such a shop.
Perhaps such shops could also serve as agents for private gun sales (e.g. Ed has an antique rifle he wants to sell to Phil, so they register the purchase through one of the ABC-style shops).
john
December 19th, 2012
10:13 am
can readers of the AJC sue bookman because they believed his crap and are really dumb now?
stands for decibels
December 19th, 2012
10:14 am
I call it missing white girl syndrome.
I call it “Where the white women at?”
TaxPayer
December 19th, 2012
10:14 am
And the cons continue to demonstrate why they’re losers. If it were only 50 children killed by a person with an assault rifle and none of them were your own children, would that be enough to make it acceptable to impose responsibilities on gun owners? I doubt it. How many cons would sacrifice their own children in the name of preserving their idea of 2nd amendment rights.
williebkind
December 19th, 2012
10:15 am
“In Georgia guns are easier to get than fireworks.”
That was another SYMPATHY LAW. A people had fireworks blow up in their hands and some lost fingers and some lost the entire hand. So progressive liberal thing to do was create a sympathy law to ban fireworks. Amazing! But we cant ban vile disgusting behavior the liberals love and live for.
barking frog
December 19th, 2012
10:15 am
If lack of God is a problem with disturbed children, why is there no
national movement to have them treated by faith healing preachers
or just prayed for in churches?
williebkind
December 19th, 2012
10:15 am
“And the cons continue to demonstrate why they’re losers.”
Not in Ga.
Fred ™
December 19th, 2012
10:16 am
Welcome to the Occupation
December 19th, 2012
10:08 am
Fred: “Mostly all I have seen is nonsense from both sides which is WHY we can’t ever get anything meaningful done in this Country any more. No one in their right mind wants to see something like this happen again. There HAS to be some middle ground here people”
Complete bosh, Fred.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Really? Then what do you the trash I’ll link below?
A “middle ground” would probably look a lot like what Jay Bookman lays out above. But the resistance to even these sensible measures will be met with a ferocious onslaught of resistance from the thug lobby National Child Slaughter Association (NRA).
Yeah buddy, THAT is an intelligent phrase designed to inspire reasoned discussion. You sir are a solution, you are the problem. You obviously can’t discuss matters in a polite fashion. It’s not just the Republicans, you hard core left wing fanatics are just as hard headed and unwilling to use civility OR compromise on this issue.
Fred ™
December 19th, 2012
10:17 am
john
December 19th, 2012
10:09 am
You wont see bookman or other anti-American gungrabbers mention this but…..there was an ATTEMPTED massacre at another movie theater. This time in San Antonio. Why wasnt it a massacre? Someone else had a gun and stopped it before it got started. If bookman had his way we would be reading about another massacre. But since a person with a gun stopped it they story doesnt get the coverage.
++++++++++++++++
Link please. I know you have one…….. or did you just kinda halfway remember something you heard on talk radio?
Ben Shockley
December 19th, 2012
10:17 am
“can readers of the AJC sue bookman because they believed his crap and are really dumb now?”
They would have to prove they weren’t dumb before. Good luck on that with any of Bookman’s lib regulars…..
curious
December 19th, 2012
10:17 am
Unfortunately people with dishonorable discharges get DD 214s., section 8s, too.
training and mental eval, before buying, then periodic training and mental eval.
Recon 0311 2533
December 19th, 2012
10:18 am
JHM,
No further comment as I wouldn’t want to get you all worked up and begin laughing and pointing at yourself. There might be medications for your problem but I’m not a mental health professional.
stands for decibels
December 19th, 2012
10:18 am
So which radio talk show host or FOXBOT commentator (or ALL of them), has been spouting the “Chicago gun violence is Obama’s fault” diversion?
I was hearing this bullsh-t months ago from some wingnut a-hole at a client site. (Turned out he announced his resignation from the client’s company a little later, at which time I learned nobody there liked him, either. heh.)
More recently some dimwit was trying to peddle some nonsense here about how Chicago loses (fill in some absurd per-week figure) which, when called out after I’d done some basic math, got all pissy and told me that I don’t care about colored folks.
Anyway, I assume the “Obama/Chicago bloodbath” deflecturbation is in regular rotation at any given moment.
DownInAlbany
December 19th, 2012
10:19 am
curious
December 19th, 2012
10:05 am
Looks like gun control isn’t going to be solved here today.
Let’s revisit Benghazi.
I wouldn’t count on that, curious. These folks figured that one out several weeks ago. Nothing to see here, folks, move along!
williebkind
December 19th, 2012
10:19 am
“How many cons would sacrifice their own children in the name of preserving their idea of 2nd amendment rights.”
My family has preserved that right since the early 1800’s. Our children were forced into the military and others went voluntarily. Never doubt the liberals will not exploit a tragedy for political gain.
Joe Hussein Mama
December 19th, 2012
10:22 am
curious — “Unfortunately people with dishonorable discharges get DD 214s., section 8s, too.”
However, the *character* of your discharge will be noted on the DD214.
In my case, it says “HON” in that space. In my brother-in-law’s case, it says “OTH.”
IMO, brother-in-law should come in for extra scrutiny before being allowed to purchase or secure a CCP.
Joe Hussein Mama
December 19th, 2012
10:22 am
curious — “Unfortunately people with dishonorable discharges get DD 214s., section 8s, too.”
However, the *character* of your discharge will be noted on the DD214.
In my case, it says “HON” in that space. In my brother-in-law’s case, it says “OTH.”
IMO, brother-in-law should come in for extra scrutiny before being allowed to purchase or secure a CCP.
Thulsa Doom
December 19th, 2012
10:22 am
Right on cue. The incessant whining about Rush, Hannity, and Fox news. As predictable as the sun rising in the east.
Regnad Kcin
December 19th, 2012
10:22 am
“the racist liberals must be stopped
allowing all those deaths in chicago”
I guess we could try the conservative solution: giving them all guns. Oh, wait…
Oscar
December 19th, 2012
10:22 am
Background checks for all gun sales, including on-line and gun shows.
stands for decibels
December 19th, 2012
10:23 am
time to put “Prayer” back in schools
it never left, Cosby.
Nobody is preventing students from praying in schools.
Now, leading entire classrooms in some belief-system’s prayer, expecting all pupils to chant along? No.
That ok with you? or would you prefer that your kid say “allahu akbar” with the others?
williebkind
December 19th, 2012
10:23 am
“Let’s revisit Benghazi.”
Cannot do that because Hillary has a concussion. Now how did she get that? Is it like the folders that simply appeared on the table while she was in the white house.
williebkind
December 19th, 2012
10:24 am
“Nobody is preventing students from praying in schools.”
Please, you can kid yourself but limit it to that, OK?
Ben Shockley
December 19th, 2012
10:25 am
Liberals are so funny. 26 people get killed in Connecticut, libs want to throw the Constitution in the trash and take away people’s 2nd amendment rights. Over 2,000 die in the world trade center, libs are opposed to profiling muslim non-citizens at the airport because they don’t want to offend anybody.
You can’t make this stuff up.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 19th, 2012
10:25 am
Fred: “You obviously can’t discuss matters in a polite fashion”
Sorry, but we are past politeness. Politeness is of little use when jack-booted thugs like Wayne Lapierre and their proto-fascistic thug lobbies have turned out nation into slaughter grounds.