GOP concocts imaginative scheme to steal elections
A Republican presidential candidate hasn’t carried Michigan since the first George Bush did it back in 1988, seven election cycles ago. And for the GOP, the future doesn’t look much brighter than the past. In the most recent election, Barack Obama carried the state and its 16 electoral votes by a comfortable margin of 9.5 percentage points.
So what’s a losing party to do? Field a better candidate? Develop a message that voters will find more compelling? Nah. Why do things the hard way when you can “fix” the system to your advantage legislatively?
As Reid Wilson explains in National Journal, Michigan Republicans are preparing to use their control of the state Legislature to change the way in which electoral votes are awarded in their state. Rather than use the traditional winner-take-all system, they propose to award electoral votes by congressional district.
What would that mean in practice? It would mean that in 2012, Obama would have won just seven of Michigan’s 16 electoral votes, even though he carried the state very easily. Mitt Romney would have won nine electoral votes even though he lost his native state convincingly.
How could that be? Because unlike state boundaries, boundaries of congressional districts can be gerrymandered to favor one party over another. In Michigan’s case, its congressional districts have been heavily gerrymandered to maximize GOP power and minimize Democratic power, and if you use those same boundaries to award electoral votes in a presidential race, you get that same distorted outcome.
And as Wilson points out, Michigan is far from the only state where Republicans have control of the legislative process and hope to implement such changes:
Pennsylvania: Obama won the Keystone State by 5 percentage points in 2012. Again, no GOP presidential candidate has carried the state since 1988. But under the altered rules, Pennsylvania would have produced 12 electoral votes for Romney in 2012, leaving only eight for Obama, even though the Democrat carried the state by almost 300,000 votes.
Wisconsin: Republicans haven’t carried Paul Ryan’s home state since 1984, and in 2012 Obama won its 10 electoral votes by a margin of 6.7 percentage points. But under the altered system, Obama would have had to split those 10 electoral votes evenly with the loser.
Florida: Obama has now carried the state twice in a row by narrow margins. But if presidential votes tracked congressional votes, Romney would have won 17 of Florida’s 29 electoral votes under the altered system, leaving only 12 for the candidate who actually won a majority of the state’s votes.
Ohio: Obama carried the state in both 2008 and 2012. But if the rules had been changed and presidential votes tracked congressional votes, he would have won only a third of Ohio’s 18 electoral votes, giving two-thirds to the candidate who lost the state.
Virginia: Obama won the state for the second time in a row in 2012, this time by four percentage points. But under the GOP plan, his likely reward for that victory would have been just five of the state’s 13 electoral college votes.
Under the Constitution, each state has the right to determine how its electoral votes are distributed, which would make it difficult to challenge such changes legally. In fact, Maine and Nebraska already use such a system, although neither state adopted it for partisan purposes.
In addition, the congressional maps in Maine and Nebraska are not heavily gerrymandered, which makes a big difference. In states with gerrymandered maps, such a system might be vulnerable to legal challenge on the grounds that politicians were consciously trying to discount the value of votes cast by certain U.S. citizens while enhancing the value of others.
Because as Wilson reports, the GOP is pretty clear about its intent:
“If you did the calculation, you’d see a massive shift of electoral votes in states that are blue and fully [in] red control,” said one senior Republican taking an active role in pushing the proposal. “There’s no kind of autopsy and outreach that can grab us those electoral votes that quickly.”
The proposals, the senior GOP official said, are likely to come up in each state’s legislative session in 2013. Bills have been drafted, and legislators are talking to party bosses to craft strategy. Saul Anuzis, the former chairman of the Michigan Republican Party, has briefed Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus and Chief of Staff Jeff Larson on his state’s proposal. The proposal “is not being met with the ‘We can’t do that’ answer. It’s being met with ‘I’ve already got a bill started,’ ” the official said.
I particularly admire the cynicism behind the admission that “there’s no kind of autopsy and outreach that can grab us those electoral votes that quickly.” In other words, why try to appeal to more voters or reassess your platform when, by legislative fiat, you can in effect all but steal electoral votes and perhaps the election itself?
The potential implications of such a change would be profound. For example, it would add another layer of incentive for politicians to gerrymander congressional districts. In addition, Ohio and other states would no longer be battleground states; instead, you’d have battleground districts, where political war would be waged intensely while surrounding congressional districts were ignored.
Overall, if the changes in question had been in place in all six states listed above, Romney probably would have won an additional 63 electoral votes. Add that to the 206 votes that he did win, and Romney has 269 votes, creating an electoral college tie with Obama.
That tie in turn would have thrown the race into the House of Representatives, where Republicans hold a narrow majority thanks in part to their success at gerrymandering.
Which means that Romney, having lost the popular vote by almost four percentage points and 4.7 million votes, would today be President-elect Romney.
– Jay Bookman
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675 comments Add your comment
JamVet
December 18th, 2012
3:57 pm
betty, we have almost all of the ex-military types.
We’d crush them!
Joe Hussein Mama
December 18th, 2012
3:58 pm
M. Betty — “It would be cool to have a paintball battle between the posters on this blog”
Tippmann SL 68 FTW, baby!
stands for decibels
December 18th, 2012
3:59 pm
It would be cool to have a paintball battle between the posters on this blog:
libs vs. cons
Yep. Good thing about that? people who wanted to preserve their anonymity could do so, since they could just keep their headgear intact the whole time. Maybe y’all could set it up with Jay.
(I’d buy popcorn to watch, but probably wouldn’t participate, since I sucked at the last remotely-similar experience I had–laser tag–some years back, and I’m sure I’d suck at paintball too.)
Regnad Kcin
December 18th, 2012
4:00 pm
“I’ll take the 1.33 trillion that Reagan added in 8 years over the 6 or 7 trillion that Obama added in 4 years ma’am’
Just because I’m curious, what if we used constant dollars. IMO, tripling the debt is pretty amazing, though…
stands for decibels
December 18th, 2012
4:00 pm
(…and you don’t want to know about the friendly-fire atrocities I’ve committed in the video scenario training I’ve done.)
stands for decibels
December 18th, 2012
4:01 pm
IMO, tripling the debt is pretty amazing, though…
and it’s far more egregious than what Thulsa is complaining about, but hey–those raw numbers are Teh Skary.
curious
December 18th, 2012
4:02 pm
td
“Why are you not talking about the crazy Hank Johnson or Maxine Walters? Like I thought they are not crazy because they are Dems.”
Because I was talking about West/Scott. There’s no shortage of crazy people, but Tim Scott will be the new darling of Fox News, Hannity, Limbaugh, etc. for the next couple years.
My prediction is he’ll mange to shoot himself in the foot and out of re-election.
Joe Hussein Mama
December 18th, 2012
4:02 pm
SfD — “(…and you don’t want to know about the friendly-fire atrocities I’ve committed in the video scenario training I’ve done.)”
FACE!
curious
December 18th, 2012
4:03 pm
td
“Why are you not talking about the crazy Hank Johnson or Maxine Walters? Like I thought they are not crazy because they are Dems.”
Because I was talking about West/Scott. There’s no shortage of crazy people, but Tim Scott will be the new darling of Fox News, Hannity, Limbaugh, etc. for the next couple years.
My prediction is he’ll manage to shoot himself in the foot and out of re-election.
Get Real
December 18th, 2012
4:03 pm
Ahhh the latest episode of “As the Liberals Turn”; in this episode Jay finds fault with the GOP. His writers have been on strike since the first episode so the story line tends to repeat itself…
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 18th, 2012
4:03 pm
It’s official!!
The results are in!
Posting the same thing twice doesn’t make it any more relevant!!!!!!!!
willie lynch
December 18th, 2012
4:04 pm
The Three Trillion Dollar War is a 2008 book by Nobel Prize laureate Joseph Stiglitz and Harvard professor Linda Bilmes, both of whom are American economists.
Dumb. Also from wiki.
The Three Trillion Dollar War is a 2008 book by Nobel Prize laureate Joseph Stiglitz and Harvard professor Linda Bilmes, both of whom are American economists.
The book examines the full cost of the Iraq War, including many hidden costs.[1] The book also discusses the extent to which these costs will be imposed for many years to come, paying special attention to the enormous expenditures that will be required to care for very large numbers of wounded veterans. The authors conclude by illustrating the opportunity cost of the resources spent on waging the war.
Pull your head out of FOX’s a** and try reading sometime.
Brosephus™
December 18th, 2012
4:04 pm
willie lynch @ 3:55
You just don’t get it, do you? It doesn’t matter what YOU talk about. Regardless to what you’re personally talking about, Doom’s gonna attempt to twist the argument to what he wants to talk about instead. That’s why I said I was done with it. Never argue with someone on his home turf as he will always whip your ass with his experience and knowledge of the layout of the land. It’s no different than the lowering yourself down to argue with an idiot type thing.
Gale
December 18th, 2012
4:05 pm
The first and only time I did paintball, I popped my new boss between the eyes. I was very glad for the masks, for him and for me.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
December 18th, 2012
4:06 pm
Ahhh the latest episode of “As the Liberals Turn”; in this episode Jay finds fault with the GOP. His writers have been on strike since the first episode so the story line tends to repeat itself…
Notice he doesn’t dispute anything in the article.
Now that’s a story line that repeats itself.
larry
December 18th, 2012
4:07 pm
How many of those 16 million jobs were government jobs?
williebkind
December 18th, 2012
4:08 pm
Joe Hussein Mama
December 18th, 2012
3:34 pm
If is is is……That makes sense to you does it not?
Joe Hussein Mama
December 18th, 2012
4:09 pm
Gale — “I was very glad for the masks, for him and for me.”
But wasn’t it SATISFYING?
larry
December 18th, 2012
4:09 pm
The book examines the full cost of the Iraq War, including many hidden costs.[1] The book also discusses the extent to which these costs will be imposed for many years to come, paying special attention to the enormous expenditures that will be required to care for very large numbers of wounded veterans. The authors conclude by illustrating the opportunity cost of the resources spent on waging the war.
I expect that the total cost of the Iraq war alone to run 3 trillion or more by the time its all said and done.
Thulsa Doom
December 18th, 2012
4:09 pm
“And just where did I attempt to revise history?”
I didn’t say you specifically. I said kooks and hatemongers. If you voluntarily include yourself in that group then so be it.
“I’m merely asking why you’re so intent on living in the past instead of living in the present?”
I’m not intent on living in the past. I’m simply going to correct libs who try to revise the success of the Reagan years.
“Reagan pushed the national debt over a trillion dollars, did he not?”
2.05 trillion. Which pales in comparison to the 17 trillion today. Does it not?
“Did that same president also triple the national debt?”
Yes. But that’s statistically misleading since the debt was so small to begin with at 712 billion. Being a math guy I would think you would understand how misleading that stat is.
“Did that same president not increase the size of government, including personnel, during his tenure?”
Yes. Primarily due to the military buildup which broke the Soviet Union and for which we later reaped a sizeable peace dividend in the way of greatly reduced military expenditures.
“According to Cheney, Reagan proved that deficits did not matter, right, so why is it all of a sudden such a big issue in politics?”
Probably the biggest load of horesshyte on the blogs. According to the Laffer curve deficits do not matter in the short term as longer term increased revenues overtake the earlier deficits. You can debate the laffer curve all day long but its dishonest to take the meaning of short term deficits in the context of the laffer curve out of context. But apparently he isn’t the only one who thinks that.
Right now, deficits don’t matter — a point borne out by all the evidence.- Paul Krugman
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/deficits-and-the-printing-press-somewhat-wonkish/
“I never said the government didn’t run deficits before. The issue with Reagan is, we quit running mild deficits and ran the car right over the deficit cliff.”
Revisionist history. 2.05 trillion in debt is not that big a deal. 17 trillion is. And what’s more is that the debt under Obama for the first time ever has exceeded GNP. That didn’t happen under Reagan.
“That’s the point I’m trying to make with you. You try to make Reagan sound like he was the greatest thing since sliced bread, but his policies also set us on the path that people think has us going broke?”
Nope. His policies set us on a course of nearly 20 years of uninterrupted, continous growth. To try and blame the 2007 housing crisis and recession of the on Reagan policies from 27 years earlier is beyond stupid. Yet liberals do it. Who would believe such utter simpleton nonsense? If you want to blame something blame Fed targeting of unemployment as opposed to a concentration on price stability.
As many economists will note a primary focus on price stability lessens and or limits the possibilities of price asset bubbles such as the housing crisis. Yet every liberal on here a few days ago was critical of changing the fed policies from the current dual mandate to a mandate focusing on pricing stability which would avert or lessen such bubbles. This is what happens when libs don’t have a freaking clue as to what the hell they are talking about.
“After all, cutting taxes and increasing spending took on a whole new life under Reagan.”
He raised taxes twice as liberals like to point out. The Dems had agreed to reduce spending in order to reduce deficits. They lied and never did. That one is on the Dems.
“You don’t even have to bother to respond, as I don’t feel like debating this crap as I’ve heard everything that you have to say about Reagan. No need of reposting that stuff again as you probably have word files that you can cut and paste with ease.”
Nope. Fresh words every time. The truth never changes despite your abhorrence to it.
Get Real
December 18th, 2012
4:09 pm
Cheese Head…what is there to dispute, Jay dislikes conservative Americans. I am in complete agreement that Jay is a liberal…
williebkind
December 18th, 2012
4:10 pm
“Posting the same thing twice doesn’t make it any more relevant!!!!!!!!”
I thought that was a liberal incantation ploy.
curious
December 18th, 2012
4:10 pm
If you’re referring to me, I apologize. Just correcting a misspelled word.
I don’t mind admitting that the computer is faster than me.
Joe Hussein Mama
December 18th, 2012
4:11 pm
williebkind — “If is is is……That makes sense to you does it not?”
Look, you asserted that sympathy law/s made Dick’s Sporting Goods pull those rifles, and that’s total bulldada. There’s no way a ’sympathy law’ could be PASSED quickly enough for force that kind of a swift corporate response.
But hey, you just keep on pulling stuff out of your hindquarters if you like. The more times you do it, the less believable you become.
Nunna Yobinnes
December 18th, 2012
4:11 pm
Hey, have any of you ever met gerrymander’s wife sallymander. I hear she can be a real amphibian.
williebkind
December 18th, 2012
4:12 pm
“Liberals – 2 (Obama & Obama) WINNERS”
Really? Of what?
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 18th, 2012
4:12 pm
OH NOES! THE DJIA HAS MOVED ANOTHER 115 POINTS! WE ARE FCREWN AND THE FISCAL CLIFF IS COMING!
Wait.
What’s that you say?
The DJIA moved UP 115 points?
Never mind.
pete
December 18th, 2012
4:13 pm
More layoffs, and once again it was more Obama supporters. That’s how you clean house.
I just hope we don’t hire anymore libs.
I guess things are looking up.
willie lynch
December 18th, 2012
4:14 pm
Brosephus™
December 18th, 2012
4:04 pm
For posterity it is incumbent upon us to establish a written record. Nothing is more enlightening than the written word. I believe this character (Dumb) perceives himself to be among the brightest of his kind.
Nothing is better suited to dispel the myth one creates of himself than the proof of his self delusion. Sort of like Hitler with Mein Kampf. So I’ll continue to pull this one further out to sea.
Thulsa Doom
December 18th, 2012
4:14 pm
“It doesn’t matter what YOU talk about. Regardless to what you’re personally talking about, Doom’s gonna attempt to twist the argument to what he wants to talk about instead”
Brocephus and willie lynch,
There is nothing to twist. Willie said that 4 trillion of Obama’s deficits goes directly to W’s 2 wars. That is horse maure and is easily disproven. Hell we aren’t even in Iraq as far as combat battalions go. The easily to find evidence shows that we’ve spent maybe a half trillion or so in the 4 years under O and not 4 trillion as Willie stench states. Its a flat out
L
I
E
!
Joe Hussein Mama
December 18th, 2012
4:15 pm
pete — “More layoffs, and once again it was more Obama supporters. That’s how you clean house.
I just hope we don’t hire anymore libs.”
Why would you be hiring people if you’re in the middle of firing them?
Ohyeahright. You’re just making it up. I gettit now.
USMC2841
December 18th, 2012
4:15 pm
Glad you brought up gerrymandering. Perhaps you can explain how Cynthia McKinney’s district ran from South Dekalb all the way to Savannah and was only as wide as I-20 at some points? The Republicans would sue and the courts would agree but by the time it was settled the 10 year census would allow the lines to be changed and the process would start anew. Thank God in heaven the Republicans won and fixed the issue. I’ll believe gerrymandering is an issue when both sides start acting like it is. Until then pot meet kettle.
barking frog
December 18th, 2012
4:16 pm
nunna yobinnes
Hey, have any of you ever met gerrymander’s wife sallymander. I hear she can be a real amphibian.
…………………………………………………………..
wasn’t newt involved with sallymander ? or was it gerrymander ?
williebkind
December 18th, 2012
4:16 pm
Joe Hussein Mama
December 18th, 2012
4:11 pm
Stay away from my hindquarters! There have been no laws passed. Why are you so tunnel visioned that a law was passed and if one does pass it will be a SYMPATHY LAW. Now you can wipe.
curious
December 18th, 2012
4:16 pm
From BLS.
“Over the course of President Obama’s first term, all government employment lost about 600,000 jobs, while under President Reagan, total government employment INCREASED by 225,000 jobs in his FIRST TERM!”
Nunna Yobinnes
December 18th, 2012
4:17 pm
BF – Could be. Newt has so many indiscretions.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 18th, 2012
4:18 pm
Perhaps you can explain how Cynthia McKinney’s district ran from South Dekalb all the way to Savannah and was only as wide as I-20 at some points?
Perhaps you can explain when liberals were in control of the Ga. legislature?
willie lynch
December 18th, 2012
4:18 pm
Dumb,
“Nope. His policies set us on a course of nearly 20 years of uninterrupted, continous growth.”
I thought it was 30 years a couple of pages back. Well I guess when you just believe all things come true. Is that Celine Dion I hear?
Thulsa Doom
December 18th, 2012
4:19 pm
“The Three Trillion Dollar War is a 2008 book by Nobel Prize laureate Joseph Stiglitz and Harvard professor Linda Bilmes, both of whom are American economists.”
Willie Lynch,
That’s 3 trillion that was spent by W over 8 years and goes into his debt numbers. So how does that figure into the 6 to 7 trillion in new debt that Obama has added in the last 4 years??? It doesn’t. Do you just not understand the difference between debt and deficits?
indigo
December 18th, 2012
4:19 pm
Nunna – 4:11
Those “witty” remarks just sank here like a lead balloon.
Nunna Yobinnes
December 18th, 2012
4:20 pm
Actually “Newt” might even be sallymander.
From Monty Python:
How do you know she’s a witch?
Well, she turned me into a newt.
You don’t look like a newt to me.
I got bettah.
Nunna Yobinnes
December 18th, 2012
4:21 pm
Sorry indigo. I guess no one likes bad humor. Please disregard my 4:20 post.
curious
December 18th, 2012
4:21 pm
Give me a credit card with a $1M line of credit and I’ll look pretty successful until I max out the card.
barking frog
December 18th, 2012
4:22 pm
indigo
those were “twitty” remarks, mine included…
Thulsa Doom
December 18th, 2012
4:22 pm
willie lynch,
20 years. I see you still can’t answer that lie about W’s wars adding 4 trillion to Obama’s added debt numbers. deflect, deflect, deflect.
willie lynch
December 18th, 2012
4:22 pm
Thulsa Doom
December 18th, 2012
4:19 pm
You are dumb. The point is it DIDN”T go into his debt numbers. President Obama took the war costs onto his books because W didn’t. You really are dumb.
TaxPayer
December 18th, 2012
4:23 pm
Y’all take it easy on Doom and Gloom. He lives in a different reality. A Land of Confusion.
Aquagirl
December 18th, 2012
4:24 pm
The first and only time I did paintball, I popped my new boss between the eyes.
One of the funniest things ever: Paintball with “My Big Fat Obnoxious Boss.” Corporate wannabe suck-ups in office attire attempt to send a fax under paintball fire from a Donald Trump imitator.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB1BLc5_iHw
Thulsa Doom
December 18th, 2012
4:24 pm
Got some work to do and gotta get going. In the meantime its been fun laying down a brutal Doomstrike on the kooks.
josef
December 18th, 2012
4:25 pm
L-rd! Looks like some bad cases of PMS on here this p.m. and they ain’t comin’ from the wimminfolk…
pete
December 18th, 2012
4:26 pm
Joe,
We have a hiring freeze in place, and has been for 3 years now. The days after the election we laid off 10% of the folks. After January 1, they are going to lay off another 15%. If they do start hiring again, the bar will be much higher for a lib. As my boss said, them Obama bumper stickers are just disappearing.
Voting does have consequences.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
December 18th, 2012
4:26 pm
Reagan has tripled the Gross Federal Debt, from $900 billion to $2.7 trillion. Ford and Carter in their combined terms could only double it. It took 31 years to accomplish the first postwar debt tripling, yet Reagan did it in eight.
As most analysts predicted, Reagan’s massive $749 billion supply-side tax cuts in 1981 quickly produced even more massive annual budget deficits. Combined with his rapid increase in defense spending, Reagan delivered not the balanced budgets he promised, but record-setting debt. Even his OMB alchemist David Stockman could not obscure the disaster with his famous “rosy scenarios.”
Forced to raise taxes eleven times to avert financial catastrophe, the Gipper nonetheless presided over a tripling of the American national debt to nearly $3 trillion. By the time he left office in 1989, Ronald Reagan more than equaled the entire debt burden produced by the previous 200 years of American history.
Regnad Kcin
December 18th, 2012
4:27 pm
” if one does pass it will be a SYMPATHY LAW.”
Willieb – can you conceive of no law in response to this tragedy that you would not characterize as a “sympathy law”? Seems kind of close-minded…
Krystal'sBalls
December 18th, 2012
4:27 pm
@Doom
“the nation’s total debt stood at $10.6 trillion on the day Obama took office (not $6.3 trillion), and it had increased to nearly $15.4 trillion by the end of January 2012 — a rise of more than $4.7 trillion in just over three years (not $6.5 trillion).”
**BOiiiiiiiNNNNG** !
Factcheck.org (you should try it sometime
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 18th, 2012
4:28 pm
As my boss said, them Obama bumper stickers are just disappearing.
Voting does have consequences.
As does job discrimination.
Krystal'sBalls
December 18th, 2012
4:29 pm
(I see why Doom bailed. She HAD to see me coming…) LMAO.
Thulsa Doom
December 18th, 2012
4:29 pm
willie lynch
December 18th, 2012
4:22 pm
Thulsa Doom
December 18th, 2012
4:19 pm
“You are dumb. The point is it DIDN”T go into his debt numbers. President Obama took the war costs onto his books because W didn’t. You really are dumb.”
Oh my God! willie lynch, just how stupid can you possibly be??? W’s wars were done off the books so they did not show up in his yearly deficit numbers. There are various items that don’t show up in the yearly budget. They are done off the books. FDIC I think is one item for example that is done off the books. But W’s war spending absolutely show up in his debt. Only an absolute freaking moron believes that his war spending did not get added in to his overall debt numbers when he left office.
If you don’t believe that then ask Joe mama, Jay, or any other liberal on here. Gawd that is stupid.
Ask Jay when he comes back. The apology window will be open later on for you to apologize for your profound ignorance.
They BOTH suck
December 18th, 2012
4:29 pm
“In the meantime its been fun laying down a brutal Doomstrike on the kooks.”
That is equivalent to attempting to light a wet firecracker
hahahahah
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 18th, 2012
4:30 pm
Got some work to do and gotta get going.
Not intended to be a factual statement.
Nunna Yobinnes
December 18th, 2012
4:30 pm
Pete, I’m a thankin yer boss better keep hiz mouth shut. He mite be lookin at a class action discrimination soot.
curious
December 18th, 2012
4:31 pm
Anybody ready to apologize for rudeness?
Nunna Yobinnes
December 18th, 2012
4:32 pm
I’ve already apologized for my feeble attempts at humor. My conscience is clear (well, sort of.)
Regnad Kcin
December 18th, 2012
4:32 pm
“The apology window will be open later on for you to apologize for your profound ignorance”
Why do you feel that ignorance requires an apology? I bet you have no children!
Thulsa Doom
December 18th, 2012
4:32 pm
Krystal’s Balls,
It was 10.6 trillion when he entered office. No disagreement there. But we are about to hit 17 trillion are we not??? Are we not talking about a fiscal cliff??? Perhaps you heard about that in the news? 17 – 10.6 = 6.4 trillion in new debt. As I said Obama has added between 6-7 trillion in new debt. The truth shall set you free. And btw krystal that debt is projected to keep going, and going, and going.
D
O
O
M
S
T
R
I
K
E
!
Brosephus™
December 18th, 2012
4:33 pm
Yes. But that’s statistically misleading since the debt was so small to begin with at 712 billion. Being a math guy I would think you would understand how misleading that stat is.
Obviously, you don’t understand math nearly as much as I do. There is nothing misleading about tripling anything. If I have one orange to start with and end with three, then I have tripled the number of oranges I have. Nobody’s arguing about totals and sh*t other than you. You keep claiming that you’re talking about facts, but when that particular fact is brought up, you keep trying to deflect it as som3thing other than fact. Why not practice what you preach and own up to FACT?
Probably the biggest load of horesshyte on the blogs. According to the Laffer curve deficits do not matter in the short term as longer term increased revenues overtake the earlier deficits.
No, that’s the biggest load of horsesh*t on the blogs. Reagan’s revenues didn’t overtake his deficits at all. Hence the record (at that time) debt load he left when he moved out of DC. If the Laffer curve was correct, wouldn’t his revenues cut the deficit and, by proxy, the debt at some point and time? Our debt has not gone down a penny since we hit the $500B mark.
————————–
This is the last thing I’ll say about tax cuts, Reagan, or any of that other propaganda bullsh*t today. Reading Doomy’s post have opened my eyes to something I had not even noticed before. This whole tax cut mythology is a result of people not knowing the difference between corelation and causation.
Years ago, when our economy was actually built on us making tangible goods and selling those goods to the world, we saw a huge period of growth where taxes were cut along the way. Nevermind the fact that, when tax rates were high as hell, there were not nearly as many who were affected by them. Somebody got the impression that the cuts were the reason for our economic growth, failing to realize that we were growing because we were selling sh*t to everybody else instead of the other way around.
Now, we have this whole “religion” based on the idea that tax cuts spur growth. There may be some truthism in this “religion”, but the wholesale idea has been proven to be worth less than a whole warehouse full of soccer helmets based on the trajectory of our debt, personal incomes for most, and all other economic indicators. Hell, we even had a lost decade in the 2000s with 0% job growth even after a series of tax cuts.
I’m no trained economist. I could give a sh*t less about Supply side economics vs Kenyesian economics. I see that it has been proven time and time again that the person making and selling the product prospers while the person buying the product does not. It doesn’t matter whether you’re selling clothing, food, or drugs. Our country has been completely f**ked up by the very people who we are supposed to believe are our business leaders all based on these outdated ideas.
Y’all have fun debating this sh*t. I’ve had enough about guns, gun laws, and Reagan to last a lifetime. If I don’t see y’all before Christmas, have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!
Joe Hussein Mama
December 18th, 2012
4:33 pm
williebkind — “Stay away from my hindquarters! There have been no laws passed.”
That’s right, there haven’t.
So you’re wrong when you claim that sympathy law/s made Dick’s Sporting Goods remove those rifles.
“Why are you so tunnel visioned that a law was passed and if one does pass it will be a SYMPATHY LAW.”
Because you seem to have a problem with cause an effect. A ’sympathy law’ can’t force anyone to do anything UNTIL IT EXISTS. Since you have now conceded that no such law exists, it’s clear that Dick’s Sporting Goods was not forced, as you claim.
Thulsa Doom
December 18th, 2012
4:34 pm
Why do birds suddenly appear…
pete
December 18th, 2012
4:34 pm
Kamchak,
Hey, we needed to cut back on some expenses, and it was just coincidence that they were libs. That’s a damn shame now ain’t it?
They BOTH suck
December 18th, 2012
4:34 pm
Thulsa
Are you not a Newt guy? My apologies if you are not, but he said there is no fiscal cliff.
Joe Hussein Mama
December 18th, 2012
4:35 pm
pete — “We have a hiring freeze in place, and has been for 3 years now. The days after the election we laid off 10% of the folks. After January 1, they are going to lay off another 15%. If they do start hiring again, the bar will be much higher for a lib. As my boss said, them Obama bumper stickers are just disappearing.”
Thanks for admitting that your employer is violating Federal employment law, Champ.
“Voting does have consequences.”
So do violations of Federal employment law. You’d better hope none of those fired folks contact the Department of Labor.
Joe Hussein Mama
December 18th, 2012
4:37 pm
Doom — “going, and going, and going.”
F
A
P
F
A
P
F
A
P
F
A
P
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willie lynch
December 18th, 2012
4:37 pm
Got some work to do and gotta get going. In the meantime its been fun laying down a brutal Doomstrike on the kooks.
Did a grown man just say “Doomstrike”?
You see Brosephus…..the written word.
Thulsa Doom
December 18th, 2012
4:37 pm
Brocephus,
Going by RF’s own numbers Reagan added 1.33 trillion to the debt over 8 years. When we hit the 17 trillion cliff and Obama came in with 10.6 trillion then that would be 6.4 trillion in 4 years vs 1.33 trillion in 8 years. Is that simple enough for a math guy like yourself? Its all over but the shouting.
B
O
O
M
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Thulsa Doom
December 18th, 2012
4:39 pm
tbs,
Newts a bright guy but I’m not a newt guy. gotta get going. If you got a minute hopefully you can explain the differece between debt and deficits to willie stench.
They BOTH suck
December 18th, 2012
4:40 pm
Bro
It is funny that the “increased revenues” on average do not outpace the tax to GDP avg ratio………………… Revenues increased in higher tax years, so what does that mean?
Show me an increase overall in the percentage then we have something to talk about besides talking points
Regnad Kcin
December 18th, 2012
4:40 pm
“Going by RF’s own numbers Reagan added 1.33 trillion to the debt over 8 years. When we hit the 17 trillion cliff and Obama came in with 10.6 trillion then that would be 6.4 trillion in 4 years vs 1.33 trillion in 8 years.”
Of course, that’s in constant dollars. Mr. Doom could not possibly bring himself to attempt to mislead us with so obvious a ploy, right?
They BOTH suck
December 18th, 2012
4:41 pm
willie
While disagreeing with much of Thusla’s economic philosophy, you do the difference or is he just pulling my leg?
Thulsa Doom
December 18th, 2012
4:41 pm
I’ll be back later. In the meantime ya’ll keep the kookapalooza going. And for God’s sake someone learn willie stench that the wars under W counted in his overall debt numbers. And splain him the difference betwee debt and deficits and off budget items. Toodles!
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 18th, 2012
4:41 pm
Revenues increased in higher tax years, so what does that mean?
It means that it is an anomaly, and SHUT UP!
Joe Hussein Mama
December 18th, 2012
4:43 pm
Doom — “Its all over but the shouting.”
Usually, a smoke and a nap follow at that point.
They BOTH suck
December 18th, 2012
4:43 pm
Thulsa
Actually it is closer to 2T in terms of the debt under Reagan, but it did almost triple and his tax cuts did not from a tax to GDP ratio increase that much if at all. Yes GDP went up as well as tax revenues, but again, tax revenues went up many years without those cuts…………
pogo
December 18th, 2012
4:43 pm
And the democrats come up with new and absurd ways to take OUR money and give it to losers.
Brosephus™
December 18th, 2012
4:43 pm
They BOTH
It is funny, it’s also funny that Mr “Increased Revenues” won’t own up to that fact. I see he’s still fellating Reagan though. You can have fun with it. His act has gotten old with me. If I want to argue with a jackass, I’ll go to a farm and find one.
Regnad Kcin
December 18th, 2012
4:44 pm
“And the democrats come up with new and absurd ways to take OUR money and give it to losers”
The stoopid! It burns!
Nunna Yobinnes
December 18th, 2012
4:45 pm
For someone who had to leave at 4:24, the exit seems remarkably long.
josef
December 18th, 2012
4:45 pm
“Newts a bright guy ”
Not even in comparison to a 20 watt bulb…
They BOTH suck
December 18th, 2012
4:46 pm
Bro
Very old. The amusing part to me, he will say others worship Obama but seems to bow at the halter of Reagan like no one bows to any President on this blog………..
Aquagirl
December 18th, 2012
4:46 pm
For someone who had to leave at 4:24, the exit seems remarkably long.
Thelma never could stick his departure flounce.
They BOTH suck
December 18th, 2012
4:48 pm
Thulsa
Just be glad you didn’t put your nonrefundable down deposit on a moon colony with hopes that Newt would win the WH…….
Joe Hussein Mama
December 18th, 2012
4:48 pm
Brosephus — “It is funny, it’s also funny that Mr “Increased Revenues” won’t own up to that fact. I see he’s still fellating Reagan though.”
Notice that he will NEVER admit that Reagan’s “Prime The Pump” strategy was exactly the same as the Obama “stimulus.” Doom will admit that Reagan engaged in deficit spending, but he’ll never admit the *reason* for it (stimulating the economy) and he’ll never give you the Reagan deficit figures in constant dollars (to compare with Obama’s figures).
He knows that giving up *just a little* of the story will advance his argument, but that if he gives away too much of it, his entire facade comes tumbling down.
larry
December 18th, 2012
4:49 pm
Only an absolute freaking moron believes that his war spending did not get added in to his overall debt numbers when he left office.
Only a certain someone would not recognize that Bush funded both wars by using supplemental budgets. Thats why his deficit numbers look good. He didnt include funding the wars in his yearly budgets .
Thus, when the president put the wars on the books that increased the deficit.
And this has been simple answers …………..
skipper
December 18th, 2012
4:52 pm
4 posts about the gerrymandering that put Cynthia McKinney in office the first time and ‘nary a comment. I guess that is something libs/repubs/ and us independants can agree on…..that was such a cluster that it bears not responding to……..
They BOTH suck
December 18th, 2012
4:55 pm
JHM
I have said the same thing for years. Reagan’s so called “supply side” can be attributed to as much increase in spending as any tax cuts…….. He primed that DoD pump like it was no one’s business.
The two top supply siders in the last 30 yrs were Reagan and Bush Jr. Reagan had a Repub Senate for 6 yrs and Bush had Congress for 6 yrs. Did spending decrease? HELL NO………
It is the dirty little secret for it to appear to work. They must have that government spending they brainwash people that they do not like………. In a sense the government spending “subsidizes” the lowering of the rates and masks what is really going on……… well until the piper comes to collect.
That is not a pass for the Democrats spending by any means, but the supply side talk is much bigger than the supply side walk
pogo
December 18th, 2012
4:55 pm
New developments on how sick the Conn. shooter was. It seems he killed because he thought his mother cared more for the young children at the school than she did for him. I won’t go into he details of this. You can look for yourself. He was pissed that his mother was going to send him away for mental treatment. Yes, he was sick but this, added with the fact that this country has raised an entire generation of people now in their twenties that think only about themselves once again fomented a mass murderer. They are the products of a generation of parents who thought they weren’t decent parents unless they made their children the center of the universe and gave them everything they
wanted. Except real parenting. Nope, the gun didn’t do it. Our society did.
larry
December 18th, 2012
4:55 pm
Well, if gerrymandering put Cynthia McKinney in office, then explain Paul Broun.
Krystal'sBalls
December 18th, 2012
4:56 pm
“Doom”FOUNDED? maybe “Doom”LUSIONAL? maybe this is just a “Doom”ARSED exchange?? Man, I don’t get some people. Too much Baghdad Bobism going on out here sometimes.
Joe Hussein Mama
December 18th, 2012
4:57 pm
skipper — “4 posts about the gerrymandering that put Cynthia McKinney in office the first time and ‘nary a comment.”
Why bother, when it’s only being offered as a DEFENSE to the Republican record of doing the same thing? Nobody here has *claimed* that Democrats don’t do it.
Do Republicans gerrymander? Yes.
Are they benefiting from it right now? Yes.
Have Democrats done it? Yes.
Does that mitigate the fact that Republicans are doing it now? No.
skipper
December 18th, 2012
5:01 pm
@pogo,
That was one helluva post aout the shooter……..gonna hit home with some folks, I’m sure.
skipper
December 18th, 2012
5:02 pm
pogo,
Thats “about”….my bad!
josef
December 18th, 2012
5:05 pm
POGO, SKIPPER
Yep. That post hit home. Our kids are that generation, They’re nothing like described in that post. They’re good, responsible and productive members of society any ;parents would be proud of.