Newtown massacre reawakens question of gun control
The United States suffers more gun deaths and mass shootings than any other major industrialized country. It’s not even close. And of the dozen most deadly mass killings in U.S. history, half have occurred within the past five years. In other words, if you believe that these things are happening more and more often, the numbers validate that belief.
The question is why.
The NRA and its supporters say the problem is not easy access to guns. To the contrary, they often argue that the problem is a shortage of guns. If only we had more guns in circulation, fewer would die. The day before the tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary School, the Michigan Legislature embraced that theory in passing a law allowing those with concealed carry permits to possess weapons in schools, churches and other formerly gun-free areas. Michigan’s governor has yet to say whether he intends to sign such a bill.
However, there is no evidence to support the NRA’s contention. Those countries with much lower death rates do not achieve those rates by allowing free and easy access to guns by almost everybody, regardless of training. Quite the contrary. Those few countries in which guns are even more ubiquitous than the United States — countries such as Iraq — have much higher death rates.
In addition, gun laws are more lax here in the South and guns themselves are more numerous. Under the NRA theory, that ought to produce a more civil, less violent society. The data say otherwise:
On the other hand, those who turn reflexively to gun control as an answer must acknowledge the inadequacies of that approach as well. Yesterday’s school shooting took place in Connecticut, a state with strong gun-control laws. The pistols that were used — a Sig Sauer and a Glock of undetermined model — had been legally obtained and were registered to Nancy Lanza, the late mother of the 20-year-old shooter. It has been widely reported that a Bushmaster .223 assault weapon — a version of the AR-15 — was found in the trunk of the vehicle driven by Adam Lanza to the school. However, Lt. Paul Vance of the Connecticut state patrol said at a press conference this morning that all recovered weapons were found in close proximity to Lanza’s body.
The high kill rate in the shootings — only one person was wounded and survived — suggests Lanza was experienced with firearms. But based on what we know now, it is hard to explain in concrete, direct fashion how any reasonable set of changes to our gun laws would have prevented Friday’s tragedy.
For example, I have not been able to find any more specific information about the types of pistols used in the attack, or whether those pistols or the Bushmaster were equipped with high-capacity magazines. As a practical matter, outlawing pistols would not be feasible given how many are already in circulation. It would also be impossible politically. Outlawing high-capacity magazines might be another matter, but again, as of yet we have no indication they played a role in this attack.
Guns are inanimate objects. Guns don’t kill people; people kill people. I accept all of that as fact. However, I would have no problem whatsoever with again outlawing military-style assault weapons. Neither would the U.S. Supreme Court, even based on its most recent pro-gun rulings.
As gun supporters point out, and accurately so, other semi-automatic weapons are capable of delivering the same high fire rate as those described as assault weapons. It is striking, however, that these “other” weapons do not typically show up in the hands of mass murderers such as Adam Lanza. The military-style design of assault weapons may be superficial, but it gives them a powerful mystique to weak-minded souls pursuing visions of vengeance and power.
Speaking in general, rather than in reaction to the Newtown strategy, it is reasonable to propose that the legal ability to purchase and possess deadly firearms be linked to training and testing on the responsible use of such weapons. That would be a regulation of people, not of guns. Such proposals would nonetheless be fought bitterly by the NRA because they would reduce gun sales, and the NRA is in many ways nothing more than a front for its gun-industry sponsors.
Such laws would in no way infringe on constitutional rights as outlined in the Second Amendment and Supreme Court opinions. The millions of law-abiding, responsible gun owners in this country would have nothing to fear from such a system. In fact, as the NRA often points out correctly, those gun owners who have gone through the steps required to obtain a concealed carry permit rarely use those guns in crime. That record suggests a possible path forward for those who recognize both the constitutional right to possess firearms and the necessity of mitigating the damage done when those guns fall into the wrong hands.
– Jay Bookman
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1,704 comments Add your comment
Thulsa Doom
December 15th, 2012
9:47 pm
td,
That was a heartwarming story of bravery and sacrifice. May Victoria Soto walk with God.
josef
December 15th, 2012
9:48 pm
FROG
I’ve been reassessing that of late, that is the blending. The more I look at it, the more I realize that that blending is fundamental to the Southern cultural uniqueness. It was by the time of the Removals, I think, a contest between two equally civilized nations over territory in a geopolitical sense abd in keeping with the general train of Western Civilization at the time.
td
December 15th, 2012
9:49 pm
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 15th, 2012
9:14 pm
As has so often been the case, Doom’s “facts” are wrong:
The latest data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention show that 3,184 children and teens died from gunfire in the United States in 2006—a 6 percent increase from 2005.
http://www.childrensdefense.org/child-research-data-publications/data/protect-children-not-guns-report-2009.html
In 2006, approximately 1100 US children younger than 20 years died from drowning
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/126/1/e253
And 2000 children were murdered today by their mothers and progressives just say so what.
barking frog
December 15th, 2012
9:50 pm
josef
i loved that portrayal and the chief looks like my grandpa except he
never wore a tophat or long hair…
godless heathen Christmas has declared war on me
December 15th, 2012
9:50 pm
The rantings of a pissed off lib whose argument just got laid to waste
D
O
O
M
B
O
O
M
Thulsa Doom
December 15th, 2012
9:56 pm
“Doom, why don’t you take your constant jackassery and trot along like the childish little boy you are. ”
Why don’t you just scroll past me? I don’t know why but you always come on, read my posts, and begin a tit for tat. You do it constantly. If you don’t like jackassery then why do you constantly start it with me?
“You cannot handle adult discussion or anything with intelligence it is clear”
Sez the poster who came on looking for a fight with me.
Is this your idea of and adult discussion with intelligence?
“As has so often been the case, Doom’s “facts” are wrong:”
“Nope. It’s too foolish to even address further. Pure buffoonery”
“…and all you can do is post pure stupidity. You are a sad sad little boy Doom.”
“Doom, why don’t you take your constant jackassery and trot along like the childish little boy you are”
josef
December 15th, 2012
9:57 pm
FROG
Looks like Unmentionable’s grandpa, too! Say what one will of Clint Eastwood, the boy knows his history. A lot of people don’t know it, but he’s of Cherokee descent himself and always held firm on the respectful and accurate presentation of the Indians in his films. .
barking frog
December 15th, 2012
9:58 pm
josef
i agree with that except the Cherokee did not stress the separation until
their land was almost lost and then it was too late. Their sovereignty was
compromised by treaty wording when they were not familiar with English.
They should not have blended but they did. But we are still here.
Thulsa Doom
December 15th, 2012
9:58 pm
godless heathen,
In all fairness I have to give you an assist on the B O O M by backing it up with a second source. I’m still waiting to see if keep up the sorry fight can figure out that 18 and 19 year olds are not children.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 15th, 2012
9:59 pm
On Friday, police in Bartlesville, Oklahoma arrested an 18-year-old high school student who was planning a school-shooting massacre plot. Sammie Eaglebear Chavez “tried to recruit other students to assist him with carrying out a plan to lure students into the school auditorium where he planned to begin shooting them after chaining the doors shut.”
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 15th, 2012
9:59 pm
2000 murdered today?
statspulledoutofyourass.com
barking frog
December 15th, 2012
10:00 pm
josef
I don’t think my grandpa spoke as many words in his entire life
as the chief did in that film.
godless heathen Christmas has declared war on me
December 15th, 2012
10:02 pm
Brosephus™
December 15th, 2012
8:32 pm
Ouch. That’s going to leave a mark.
td
December 15th, 2012
10:03 pm
“Beneath the expressions of grief, sorrow and disbelief over the Connecticut school massacre lies an uneasy truth in Washington: over the last few years the Obama administration and Congress quietly let federal funding for several key school security programs lapse in the name of budget savings.
Government officials told the Washington Guardian on Friday night that two Justice Department programs that had provided more than $200 million to schools for training, security equipment and police resources over the last decade weren’t renewed in 2011 and 2012, and that a separate program that provided $800 million to put police officers inside the schools was ended a few years earlier.
Meanwhile, the administration eliminated funding in 2011-12 for a separate Education Department program that gave money to schools to prepare for mass tragedies, the officials said.”
http://www.washingtonguardian.com/washingtons-school-security-failure
td
December 15th, 2012
10:06 pm
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 15th, 2012
9:59 pm
2000 murdered today?
statspulledoutofyourass.com
Only because you are a progressive and have dehumanized life to the point that you do not consider abortion as murder.
JamVet
December 15th, 2012
10:07 pm
And 2000 children were murdered today by their mothers and progressives just say so what.
Notwithstanding the intentional lie of using the word murder, so do MANY Republicans. You can look it up.
Ask yourself this, how many of those women were the wives, girlfriends, daughters, nieces, aunts and mothers of Republicans?
Should we round them all up, td?
Maybe make them wear a large red A in public?
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 15th, 2012
10:11 pm
…abortion as murder.
“Murder” is a legal definition.
Abortion is a legal procedure, therefore by definition it cannot be “murder.”
I understand that you consider abortions abhorrent, but you do not get to use made up definitions.
td
December 15th, 2012
10:15 pm
jam and Kam, Since you do not like the word murder according to a technical definition under current US law (It is still murder under Gods law). How about the word taking the life of the innocent or killing another human life, Does that make you feel better?
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 15th, 2012
10:16 pm
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/immediately-address-issue-gun-control-through-introduction-legislation-congress/2tgcXzQC#thank-you=p
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 15th, 2012
10:18 pm
jam and Kam, Since you do not like the word murder according to a technical definition under current US law…
You still don’t get it, sport.
It doesn’t matter what I like or dislike, it’s about you making sh*t up.
You make sh*t up, you get called on it.
JamVet
December 15th, 2012
10:18 pm
Does that make you feel better?
Yes it does, Now be so kind as to answer my questions from 10:07.
i.e. what are you going to do with these women after you successfully make abortion illegal?
It’s a reasonable question.
Thulsa Doom
December 15th, 2012
10:23 pm
Keep make sh*t up, he get called on it.
td
December 15th, 2012
10:23 pm
JamVet
December 15th, 2012
10:18 pm
I am not going to do nothing with them. Can not do anything legally because the law is what it is today. Kind of like what did the country do with slave owners before it was illegal to own slaves. After the law is changed I would hope their are penalties in place to fit the crime. Personally I would advocate a murder change and since it would be with malice and could have been prevented in the first place then the death penalty would certainly be on the table.
Josef
December 15th, 2012
10:25 pm
FROG
Unmentionable’s Cherokee granddad was the taciturn type, too. The Choctaw one STILL hasn’t shut up and he’s been dead for 20 years!
The interesting thing about the Cherokee and literacy is that Sequoyah came just a bit too late. By the time the Georgians came in, the Cherokee had reached a literacy level of over 80% twice the rate of those moving in.
td
December 15th, 2012
10:27 pm
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 15th, 2012
10:18 pm
jam and Kam, Since you do not like the word murder according to a technical definition under current US law…
You still don’t get it, sport.
It doesn’t matter what I like or dislike, it’s about you making sh*t up.
You make sh*t up, you get called on it.
Whatever SPORT. I can not help it that you are a secular humanist and do not believe in Gods law but that is your problem and you will have to answer for it one day. I just hope I am there to see the shock in your face when the Lord ask you why you did not stand up for the children.
getalife
December 15th, 2012
10:29 pm
“House Speaker Boehner has offered a fiscal cliff deal that includes letting tax rates increase for the wealthy. ”
And?
Thulsa Doom
December 15th, 2012
10:29 pm
josef,
Since you’re discussing the Cherokee nation with Frog I jusst wanted to remind you that if you haven’t seen it already there is an interesting article on the Cherokee nation and the freedmen court case that got decided yesterday. It had to do i think with recognition of ancestry by the Freedmen who were owned as slaves by Cherokees back during the trail of tears. Kinda interesting read.
RAMZAD
December 15th, 2012
10:30 pm
The notion that if we just take away their guns like we took away their marijuana weed and like we took away their moonshine whiskey and like we took away their abortions all the killings will stop is an illusion. That only works in dictatorships, where the cut off the violator’s head.
What we need is to arm more of the right people- teachers, bus driver, train operators, civil servant workers, church officers, designated employees in every work place, college professors, animal control officers, theater attendants, and a step further- we encourage all law abiding citizens to get trained and armed
Professionalize more jobs with a security/civil defense component. Kooks are going to come with guns- legal or illegal. It is not for us to do this unilateral disarmament. It is to be ready when the kooks come.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 15th, 2012
10:30 pm
I can not help it that you are a secular humanist and do not believe in Gods law but that is your problem and you will have to answer for it one day.
You cannot sell me a ticket to take a guilt trip on the shame train, sport.
Many professionals that are more competent than you have tried and failed.
td
December 15th, 2012
10:35 pm
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 15th, 2012
10:30 pm
If you are having a guilt trip then that should tell you something. I can not save your soul all I can do is tell you the truth and let the Lord convict your soul. If you choose to be stubborn and deny him then that is on you. My conscience in clear.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 15th, 2012
10:36 pm
If you are having a guilt trip then that should tell you something.
No trip here, sport.
godless heathen Christmas has declared war on me
December 15th, 2012
10:37 pm
Many professionals that are more competent than you have tried and failed.
Did your mother have you tested?
oldguy
December 15th, 2012
10:41 pm
Ah, Just when I thought there might be a ray of hope for Jay being sensible. The article has a lot of common sense and logic….. but then that liberal virus he has kicks in …..so
1. Jay talks about other countries with gun owning populations and uses Iraq as an example?? A country wracked by religious killing Shiite vs Suni, a country used to mass murder and totalitarian terror its entire existence, a country born through British colonialism without a national identity. The were killing each other with bows and arrows (and poison seran gas) for centuries.
Why not Switzerland Jay? one of the most armed countries on the face of the earth. Per household there is no other country so heavily armed. Historically, their military is armed via their citizens retaining their military arms in their homes. What is their murder rate? One of the most peaceful people on the planet. Apparently guns aren’t the problem.
2.”the NRA is in many ways nothing more than a front for its gun-industry sponsors” and your data for this is???? I am a life member of the NRA and I get their yearly financial statements. They are almost totally funded by their membership. They get very little funding from industry. As a matter of fact the firearm industry in the US is much more a mom and pop industry than almost any other. Ruger is still owned and mannaged by the Ruger family. Glock is still mostly made in Austria. The NRA is one of the few truly member owned and directed organizations.
It appears that, in summary, Jay’s main objection to gun confiscation is not the 2nd amendment or a citizen’s innate right to choose to be armed or to protect himself or his family and possessions, but rather the impossibility of being able to identify and confiscate all the arms now in private hands.
Thanks for nothing Jay.
JamVet
December 15th, 2012
10:43 pm
After the law is changed I would hope their are penalties in place to fit the crime. Personally I would advocate a murder change and since it would be with malice and could have been prevented in the first place then the death penalty would certainly be on the table.
Wow.
You are completely psychotic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpsaQq0Of2U
barking frog
December 15th, 2012
10:43 pm
Thulsa Doom
I read the article and interestingly the freedmen members/nonmembers
affected the primary chief election in that the chief had to win by enough
votes that the freedmen would not have mattered if they had voted. I think
it took three elections to settle the outcome.
Josef
December 15th, 2012
10:45 pm
Thulsa
Thanks…I had been following the case, but did not know it had been decided…on iPad now, but will go read on it in the a.m.
godless heathen Christmas has declared war on me
December 15th, 2012
10:45 pm
td: Your BS about eternal damnation scares me no more than I fear that Bigfoot will come through the window and snatch me from my bed.
Question for you. Where was your God and Jesus when those poor kids were being slaughtered? Watching with detached amusement? Either you believe God made the tracks and the train, started it in motion, and then watches as the damn thing runs off the track, or you believe that he is involved in the day to day operations of the train. Either way, if your god exists, he is one mean, cruel, heartless, vain, SOB. Anyone who’s “faith” is not rocked by the events of yesterday is incapable of logical thought.
Josef
December 15th, 2012
10:47 pm
Frog…
That Dawes Roll is aSticky wicket, eh?
barking frog
December 15th, 2012
10:51 pm
josef
it seems to be for many. my family mostly hid their cherokee ancestry
to avoid the removal and thereafter. none tried for benefits that i am
aware of.
td
December 15th, 2012
10:56 pm
godless heathen Christmas has declared war on me
December 15th, 2012
10:45 pm
I guess you have never heard of “free-will” and Satan have you. Well if you would like to take the time then I would encourage you to look up free will and study about satan and why he is allowed to do evil things to people that refuse to obey and turn away from him when he continually calls on us to follow him and put him first.
You can not study to understand and keep the secular humanism going on and on and you too my friend will answer for your unwillingness to worship him. Your choice.
barking frog
December 15th, 2012
11:02 pm
td
give godless some free will scripture to study.
Recon 0311 2533
December 15th, 2012
11:04 pm
” Anyone who’s “faith” is not rocked by the events of yesterday is incapable of logical thought.”
Nope, events like this only strengthens faith for the true believer but I won’t waste time explaining why. No intended offense.
Thulsa Doom
December 15th, 2012
11:05 pm
Barking frog,
Yeah. It was interesting. I had no idea any of this was going on and had no idea that the Cherokee had even owned slaves. Makes sense though since there were even freed black men who had owned slaves.
G’night all.
Josef
December 15th, 2012
11:10 pm
Frog
What went on at the time of the Removals and the decades following is one of the great untold stories of the American epic in my opinion, and especially the Mixed Bloods. Once it is reopened, at least in my view, several missing pieces of the puzzle of our regional identity are in place and a clearer picture of its essential uniqueness emerges.
Ken
December 15th, 2012
11:11 pm
Prayer came back to Newtown School on Friday. Rest in peace.
oldguy
December 15th, 2012
11:12 pm
Rest Well TD
Recon Keep your powder dry and your claymores out in front.
Think I’ll go have some Lobster Bisc and a bit of down home BBQ
Recon 0311 2533
December 15th, 2012
11:14 pm
oldguy, enjoy as you deserve to.
barking frog
December 15th, 2012
11:14 pm
josef
the remainder of the cherokees, mostly mixed bloods, lived hard
lives, probably harder than the people taken west after they arrived.
Recon 0311 2533
December 15th, 2012
11:15 pm
Okay troops, stand steady…I’m out. Taps
oldguy
December 15th, 2012
11:17 pm
Recon – back at ya – might slip a glass of 3.2 beer in there also. over and out.
Thulsa Doom
December 15th, 2012
11:17 pm
“Either way, if your god exists, he is one mean, cruel, heartless, vain, SOB.”
Godless heathen,
You can’t know good without knowing evil. And of course the free will thing explains why God normally does not intervene in earthly events. Plus if he revealed himself all the time to the point of being obvious than people wouldn’t have to rely on and be tested by their faith in him.
Anyway, I respect the fact that you don’t believe in God but I will say something along the same lines that will perhaps sway you into taking a look again one day. My whole life I struggled not only with these questions but also explicitly with the question of why would God subject people to an eternity in hell for the sins of one meager little lifetime- especially if you barely miss the cut to get into Heaven.
Then I found out that that is not what the bible says at all even if there are others on here who think it does. It would take too long to explain on here but the reality is that people do not burn in hell for all of eternity for just one lifetime. People are punished according to their sins. The explanations of what the bible really says are logical and rational compared to the different things I’ve been told my whole life about the bible. If you ever are curious as an atheist to see a good counterargument then go to amazingfacts .com and you will see rational, biblical explanations to these questions and others.
Now i will try and get outta here.
td
December 15th, 2012
11:25 pm
oldguy
December 15th, 2012
11:12 pm
Sounds like a good late night snack. Enjoy.
Josef
December 15th, 2012
11:27 pm
Frog
Some did, and some didn’t. It depended a lot on into which caste of White or Black the had intermarried. Just take into consideration the likes of Senator Owen. The masses, however, did form the bulk of the population of what we today call Rednecks, Crackers, trailer trash and assorted other pejoratives. Another untold chapter is just what a high percentage of Free People of Color were bi and tri racials “left behind.”
barking frog
December 15th, 2012
11:31 pm
josef
you’re right. some had intermarried well and preserved some
cherokee land by the marriage mostly to white men.
iggy
December 15th, 2012
11:40 pm
Obamas teleprompter recital, fake crying, insincere caring was nothing more than nauseating.
iggy
December 15th, 2012
11:43 pm
godless heathen Christmas has declared war on me
December 15th, 2012
10:45 pm
Fairly strong words. God never left man. Man left God. God set things in motion and man decided he wanted to be in control, God obliged and “the world” as we know it, is the result.
Josef
December 15th, 2012
11:46 pm
Frog
Interesting thing there on the gender of the intermarriages. The generally held belief was that they were white male Cherokee female. That turns out not to be the case. I’m on iPad and can’t call up the actual stats, but remind me, if you are interested, and I’ll. Pull them for you later. I was surprised myself.
Josef
December 15th, 2012
11:52 pm
Gotta call it a night….
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
December 16th, 2012
12:10 am
Whoo. Dodged the cops again and I’m back in the trailer safe and sound.
Don’t forget to go to church in the morning. It’ll make you feel a lot better about all the cussin’ and feuding tonight. Except maybe this TD. He’s so danged holy he can wait another year.
Chris
December 16th, 2012
12:40 am
Guns don’t kill people. People kill people. Guns just make it easier for people to kill. I assume it’s much harder to kill someone by stabbing or strangling them.
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
3:08 am
josef
just basing the intermarrriage on families i knew personally in the chattanooga area.
David
December 16th, 2012
4:02 am
I sure wish I could resolve deranged acts by individuals by the simplistic view point that control of the tools used for thier deprivity cures the problem. From this train of thought, cars are responsible for the carnage on our highways as well.
Thomas Heyward Jr
December 16th, 2012
5:43 am
Maybe Eric Holder could take over some gun shop in Jersey or Connetecutt……and flood the surrounding counties with guns………..and then somehow TRACK them…….to see who’s using them……….and maybe catch the bad guys…..or something. Maybe call it a jazzy name ………like maybe…….Loose and lunacy or something.
.
Surely………..nothing could go wrong.
zeke
December 16th, 2012
7:19 am
Gun control, or, the agenda of forbidding law abiding persons the Second Amendment Right to own guns, is a policy plan only in the small minds of small minded people! There is not a gun problem! It is a morals problem in this country where killing millions of unborn children is considered a method of birth control! Where criminals have vast rights and victims seemingly none! Banning or placing draconian laws on the ownership of guns will do nothing to curb this horrible violence, only a national change in morality will do that IF RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE RETURNS! THERE IS NONE NOW! As with the absurd prohibition of alcohol, there will always be guns or other means of murder available to mindless morons with an agenda of killing themselves, and, taking as many others with them as they can! New, strict gun control laws will protect only the criminals!
dcb
December 16th, 2012
7:23 am
I have no dog in this second amendment discussion. I am not a hunter or recreational shooter. And I certainly decry these killings. But I would point out that in reference to Bookman’s comment “those gun owners who have gone through the steps required to obtain a concealed carry permit rarely use those guns in crime.” – it was not the legal gun owner who used the guns in the killings. Nancy Lanza had legally obtained the weapons. She was a victim – as were the other 27 killed.
Pugugly
December 16th, 2012
7:45 am
It is the arguments about gun control that contribute to mass killings. Those against gun control loudly proclaim that everyone must have access to a gun. Remember the popular bumper sticker that said “I’ll give you my gun when you take it from my cold dead hands.” With our laissez faire mental health system and proclammations that guns are the answer, we will continue to suffer horrors such as the last one in Connecticut.
stands for decibels
December 16th, 2012
8:05 am
Find a paintball center. Get as many of your buddies together that you can. Arm yourself as a concealed carry person would. Get everyone else to set up an active shooter scenario without giving you a clue as to what’s going to happen or when it’s going to happen. After you complete the scenario, take a count of the number of shots the shooter got off before you reacted and the number of victims that were hit. Also take into account that, if the shooter hits you with a “kill” shot, you’re out of the scenario and unable to react at all while the shooter can then take your weapon and continue his assault.
Let us know how that experiment works out if you choose to take it on.
Reminds me. Bros and I have discussed this before and are in basic agreement, I think–I also believe some of the more hawkish 2nd Amendmentors here have concurred (mighta been Del, or someone else).
If you wish to have a concealed carry permit, it is not asking too much ethically (I’m not saying constitutionally–i know the current court would strike such a national requirement down) for the handgun owner to undergo the same kind of rigorous shoot/no shoot scenario training that many law enforcement officers are expected to undergo.
I’d go one better and require any handgun owner to undergo such training. I don’t expect I’d get much support from folks here on that, but given that handguns have no practical purpose other than self-defense, it seems reasonable to me.
/drive-by
Brosephus™
December 16th, 2012
8:06 am
Why is it that people do not appear to respect the beliefs, or non-beliefs, of those who do not believe as they do? Why is it that some people wish to force their religious beliefs on others who obviously do not share them?
middle of the road
December 16th, 2012
8:16 am
My question is why did the mother own an assault-syle rifle? And was the ammunition hers or did the shooter order it? Did she (or did he) use high capacity magazines? Was the mother preparing to hold off U.N. stormtroopers some time in the future? Or maybe Mexican cartel gangs were particularly bad in her neighborhood and there was a “drug war” going on?
Some may say that high-capacity magazines don’t make a difference, but it does take a second or two to change each magazine, and there is always the possibility of dropping it, so it gives a SLIGHT more chance of overpowering someone.
That being said, I still think mental illness and our total refusal to deal with it is the PRIMARY cause of this tragedy.
indigo
December 16th, 2012
8:30 am
zeke – 7:19 “New, strict gun control laws will protect criminals”
No, they will punish criminals. And, they will substantially cut into the profits of gun manufacturers. Because of the latter, you may be certain Republicans will NEVER let truly meaningful gun control laws come into being.
Mike
December 16th, 2012
8:31 am
Jay, we also need to tell hollywood to quit glamorizing assault weapons and violence in their productions.
Mike
December 16th, 2012
8:40 am
I have been at the dome for two days, so I am late getting here.
My wife works in a situation with mental health issues and she says the same thing Josef(I think) said early on. The mental health facilities that were once prevalent, are now gone for the most part. She says you guys have no idea how many seriously unstable people are freely roaming around in society.
RB from Gwinnett
December 16th, 2012
8:42 am
So, how many existing gun laws did this shooter ignore while committing this crime? 40-50??? And you think 1 more is going to help?
Just keep doing the same thing the same way, libs……
RB from Gwinnett
December 16th, 2012
8:47 am
“My question is why did the mother own an assault-syle rifle? ”
The answer is because the news media calls pretty much everything an assault style weapon no matter what it really is. I initially heard the rifle described as a hunting rifle and the 2 pistols were basic off the shelf guns. But you bought the “assault rifle” line and thats exactly what they wanted. Also, keep in mind most of them have a gun control agenda and calling it an assault rifle helps them make that case regardless of what the gun actually is. See this article for evidence.
middle of the road
December 16th, 2012
9:00 am
“The answer is because the news media calls pretty much everything an assault style weapon no matter what it really is.”
The reports called the rifle a Bushmaster .223 – a version of the AR-15, which is modeled on the military fully automatic M-16.
http://www.businessinsider.com/cnn-the-connecticut-shooter-used-a-bushmaster-rifle-like-the-dc-snipers-2012-12
See it at the link above. I still want to know the capacity. I doubt the killer could have killed so many with just an ordinary 30-06 hunting rifle. Of course he also carried two semi-automatic pistols, which would greatly extend his firepower and ammo. No word yet how many of the victims died from each type weapon.
stands for decibels
December 16th, 2012
9:01 am
calling it an assault rifle
… is calling it what it is, no matter how much you namby-pamby enablers want to pretend otherwise.
We have a lot of work to do in this country, not all of it can be accomplished through legislation, but from collective shaming and shunning. It’s going to take some time but ultimately it will succeed.
/drive-by
Brosephus™
December 16th, 2012
9:16 am
The answer is because the news media calls pretty much everything an assault style weapon no matter what it really is.
Well, if a weapon is used in an assault, does that not become an assault weapon? I understand your point, and I think the assaut-style label is used on weapons that have the appearance of military styled weapons. If somebody goes out with grandaddy’s old 30-06, I doubt you’ll hear people describe it as an assault weapon. It will likely be called a hunting rifle.
RB from Gwinnett
December 16th, 2012
9:19 am
Stands, until we’re willing to stop making these people famous by never mentioning their name, this is going to continue. In my opinion, the next one of these will be the fault of the media and every news consumer who demands all the details of this stuff. We’re giving these people EXACTLY what they want and the next one is going to “one up” this one.
The rifle used appears to be a “varmit rifle” for use hunting coyote’s, fox, wolf, etc.
TaxPayer
December 16th, 2012
9:26 am
Once again, guns have been shown to accomplish the singular task that they were designed to do–enrich manufacturers. Okay, so they are designed to do two things–enrich manufacturers and give the impotent a crutch. Okay, so they are designed to do three things.
RB from Gwinnett
December 16th, 2012
9:30 am
“and give the impotent a crutch”
Tell it to the Seals who killed Bin Laden, taxie.
Road Scholar
December 16th, 2012
9:31 am
This is rich: Fox News this AM accused Democrats of being soft on gun control! What?! The “only no” republicans in the House and Senate and their NRA masters would not allow ANY legislation that would permit gun control, registry, etc. FOX strikes again. As with the election results…LOOK WITHIN..YOU are the reason you lost and are the reason we still have mass murders! And you have the nerve to pass blame?
Moon Mullins
December 16th, 2012
9:35 am
Forget about gun control. It’s a phallic symbol and many men would feel emasculated without their GUN! Men are taught in the army: “This is my rifle and this is my gun. This is for shooting and this is for fun.”
TaxPayer
December 16th, 2012
9:37 am
RB,
You obviously are the one calling the Seals impotent, not I.
RF
December 16th, 2012
9:40 am
“Tell it to the Seals who killed Bin Laden, taxie.”
And they had weapons they were carefully trained to use and knew exactly what to do with them. Should those same weapons be available for anyone to buy and keep in the gun cabinet at home? Of course not. And yet it seems that we have another disturbed individual perhaps emboldened to act on his insanity by the presence of a fairly high powered weapon that some would argue shouldn’t be available to the average person. There’s no comparison the the SEAL teams who are painstakingly trained to use far more powerful weapons.
RB from Gwinnett
December 16th, 2012
9:42 am
You go with that, taxie. The rest of us can read what YOU posted.
RF
December 16th, 2012
9:47 am
“the next one of these will be the fault of the media and every news consumer who demands all the details of this stuff.”
NO, it will be the fault of the disturbed idiot wielding the gun. News consumers, aka citizens, have a right to know who did it and how. We need to know in order to better decide how we might protect the next potential group of victims. As a parent and a teacher, I want to know so I can at least try to plan how to deal with something like this should it ever happen in my school. We can’t stop the idiots from doing things like this, but maybe armed with the information we can make it harder for them.
TaxPayer
December 16th, 2012
9:50 am
You go with that, taxie. The rest of us can read what YOU posted.
Clearly YOU cannot read, RB.
godless heathen Christmas has declared war on me
December 16th, 2012
10:00 am
You can not study to understand and keep the secular humanism going on and on and you too my friend will answer for your unwillingness to worship him. Your choice.
Bring it on.
Thulsa: You can’t know good without knowing evil. And of course the free will thing explains why God normally does not intervene in earthly events. Plus if he revealed himself all the time to the point of being obvious than people wouldn’t have to rely on and be tested by their faith in him.
I’ve decided to give the Christians the day off – even the Lord rested on the 7th day – but I will say that the amazing thing about religion is the ability to rationalize everything. One of my “friends” even stated, “We never hear about the good things God does.” BS we hear him praised all the time for all the goodness. But he never gets any blame for the pain and suffering. I guess being God is a good gig if you can get it.
One does not decide to become an atheist and it is certainly not easy to “come out of the closet” as one. It’s not a very popular minority. But it greatly pisses me off to hear or read people blame the events of Friday on the atheists and the secular humanists.
I have been told that I should believe in God,”just in case”. LOL! Some Christians even sport bumper stickers that say, “I Choose to Believe”. Maybe some event or reexamination of evidence will someday return me to the fold, but if I began to profess a belief in God, “just to be safe” it would not be sincere and God would know it and it wouldn’t save me from eternal damnation anyway.
So Christians, have your day. Go to church and pray for the dead and the grieving families. If it makes you feel that you have “done something”, then maybe it’s worthwhile. But also listen to the sermon with a skeptical ear for once. Listen for the rationalizations and the logical backflips required for absolution of God from all responsibility when things go horribly bad.
Buzz Belle
December 16th, 2012
10:05 am
I would like to see a chart that shows the decline in mental health funding to the increase in these mass shootings. There might be some strong evidence that points to a partial answer. If the chart shows what I suspect to be true, could we not place a sizable tax on any assault weapon or magazine clip that help fund mental health services. I would prefer a ban on certain types of weapons but lets face it, there are 300 million guns in this country. We aren’t going to get rid of guns, ever. I hate that and the analogy to the massacre at the Chinese school rings true. There were multiple children injured there by a knife, we have multiple children killed here by a gun. HUGE difference.
godless heathen Christmas has declared war on me
December 16th, 2012
10:11 am
Forget about gun control. It’s a phallic symbol and many men would feel emasculated without their GUN!
The murderer used his mother’s guns.
iggy
December 16th, 2012
10:15 am
Since its the Crazy-8s are doing all the killing, it would seem the answer is now clear.
Kill all the crazy people!! After that we could feed the homeless to the hungry.
That solves 3 of societys most pressing ills.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
10:24 am
“Kill all the crazy people!!”
Maybe we should just kill all the men. When was the last time such an atrocity was committed by a woman?
Brosephus™
December 16th, 2012
10:30 am
godless @ 10:00
I guess some people don’t understand that freedom of religion also gives the same freedoms to those who do not believe as they do. Well stated post.
Rightwing Troll
December 16th, 2012
10:30 am
Couple of points this morning.
After decades of licking the NRA’s boots, kissing the NRA’s arses, and basically allowing the NRA to dictate gun control legislation (or lack thereof…) it’s much too late to put that toothpaste back in that tube… it’s simply not practical to believe that we can impose sensible gun control measures now, it’s too late.
Guns like the bushmaster (AR-15 and it’s ilk) have no business being in civilian’s hands. The ammo is designed to inflict maximum damage, not necessarily to kill. The philosophy is that it takes more combatants off the field to care for the wounded as opposed to just killing. There’s no practical purpose for hunting whatsoever. It’s a novelty or military weapon.
A shotgun and a 9mm is not only sufficient for home protection but a better choice for such. A shotgun is the preferred weapon for close quarters and a good 9 can end the matter quickly.
All this wingnut blathering about prevention of, and/or early intervention in mental illness issues is rich… these programs cost money and this is the party that canceled such programs and rail against any sort of spending on such… where’s the money going to come from? Now that your precious gun lobby is threatened, you can find the funds?
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
10:33 am
“I guess some people don’t understand that freedom of religion also gives the same freedoms to those who do not believe as they do. Well stated post”
Yes, indeed. And they exhibit one of the first steps towards fanaticism: they think they are the only ones who are right.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
10:38 am
“Guns like the bushmaster (AR-15 and it’s ilk) have no business being in civilian’s hands”
As long as they are law abiding, it’s not your business to say who should or should not have such a gun.
marko
December 16th, 2012
10:39 am
Americans own a lot of guns. No doubt about that. It also seems that the angrier, and less emotionally stable you are, the more likely you are to have guns. Mrs. Lanza seems to to have had ample warnings that she was living with an emotionally unstable son. Still she choose to ignore the warning signs, and filled her home with dangerous toys. Her poor choices cost her her life, and the lives many more innocent children.
At the very least, I’d like to see the great city of Kennesaw strike down their asinine mandatory gun ownership law. I’d appreciate them respecting my right not to own a gun. The Constitution might imply that I have the right to own a gun, However it doesn’t demand that I buy one.
If your gun collection is worth more than your house trailer, you might be a redneck. If you pass stupid knee jerk laws requiring gun ownership you might be a stupid redneck. Am I being redundant? America has many tough problems to overcome, but not having enough guns clearly doesn’t make the list.
josef
December 16th, 2012
10:42 am
I really don’t get the argument between secular humanists and the religious. I am a secular humanist in my public life and religious in my private life. I see no conflict, and one complements the other.
FROG
When you check in. I’ve got those figures for you.
godless heathen Christmas has declared war on me
December 16th, 2012
10:44 am
Guns like the bushmaster (AR-15 and it’s ilk) have no business being in civilian’s hands.
What business does an automobile that will go 100+ mph have on the roads where the maximum speed limit is 70?
Brosephus™
December 16th, 2012
10:47 am
If your gun collection is worth more than your house trailer, you might be a redneck. If you pass stupid knee jerk laws requiring gun ownership you might be a stupid redneck. Am I being redundant?
Only if Webster’s defines the word redundant as being a mindless @$$hat.