Newtown massacre reawakens question of gun control
The United States suffers more gun deaths and mass shootings than any other major industrialized country. It’s not even close. And of the dozen most deadly mass killings in U.S. history, half have occurred within the past five years. In other words, if you believe that these things are happening more and more often, the numbers validate that belief.
The question is why.
The NRA and its supporters say the problem is not easy access to guns. To the contrary, they often argue that the problem is a shortage of guns. If only we had more guns in circulation, fewer would die. The day before the tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary School, the Michigan Legislature embraced that theory in passing a law allowing those with concealed carry permits to possess weapons in schools, churches and other formerly gun-free areas. Michigan’s governor has yet to say whether he intends to sign such a bill.
However, there is no evidence to support the NRA’s contention. Those countries with much lower death rates do not achieve those rates by allowing free and easy access to guns by almost everybody, regardless of training. Quite the contrary. Those few countries in which guns are even more ubiquitous than the United States — countries such as Iraq — have much higher death rates.
In addition, gun laws are more lax here in the South and guns themselves are more numerous. Under the NRA theory, that ought to produce a more civil, less violent society. The data say otherwise:
On the other hand, those who turn reflexively to gun control as an answer must acknowledge the inadequacies of that approach as well. Yesterday’s school shooting took place in Connecticut, a state with strong gun-control laws. The pistols that were used — a Sig Sauer and a Glock of undetermined model — had been legally obtained and were registered to Nancy Lanza, the late mother of the 20-year-old shooter. It has been widely reported that a Bushmaster .223 assault weapon — a version of the AR-15 — was found in the trunk of the vehicle driven by Adam Lanza to the school. However, Lt. Paul Vance of the Connecticut state patrol said at a press conference this morning that all recovered weapons were found in close proximity to Lanza’s body.
The high kill rate in the shootings — only one person was wounded and survived — suggests Lanza was experienced with firearms. But based on what we know now, it is hard to explain in concrete, direct fashion how any reasonable set of changes to our gun laws would have prevented Friday’s tragedy.
For example, I have not been able to find any more specific information about the types of pistols used in the attack, or whether those pistols or the Bushmaster were equipped with high-capacity magazines. As a practical matter, outlawing pistols would not be feasible given how many are already in circulation. It would also be impossible politically. Outlawing high-capacity magazines might be another matter, but again, as of yet we have no indication they played a role in this attack.
Guns are inanimate objects. Guns don’t kill people; people kill people. I accept all of that as fact. However, I would have no problem whatsoever with again outlawing military-style assault weapons. Neither would the U.S. Supreme Court, even based on its most recent pro-gun rulings.
As gun supporters point out, and accurately so, other semi-automatic weapons are capable of delivering the same high fire rate as those described as assault weapons. It is striking, however, that these “other” weapons do not typically show up in the hands of mass murderers such as Adam Lanza. The military-style design of assault weapons may be superficial, but it gives them a powerful mystique to weak-minded souls pursuing visions of vengeance and power.
Speaking in general, rather than in reaction to the Newtown strategy, it is reasonable to propose that the legal ability to purchase and possess deadly firearms be linked to training and testing on the responsible use of such weapons. That would be a regulation of people, not of guns. Such proposals would nonetheless be fought bitterly by the NRA because they would reduce gun sales, and the NRA is in many ways nothing more than a front for its gun-industry sponsors.
Such laws would in no way infringe on constitutional rights as outlined in the Second Amendment and Supreme Court opinions. The millions of law-abiding, responsible gun owners in this country would have nothing to fear from such a system. In fact, as the NRA often points out correctly, those gun owners who have gone through the steps required to obtain a concealed carry permit rarely use those guns in crime. That record suggests a possible path forward for those who recognize both the constitutional right to possess firearms and the necessity of mitigating the damage done when those guns fall into the wrong hands.
– Jay Bookman
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1,704 comments Add your comment
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 15th, 2012
5:57 pm
“Gun bans don’t disarm criminals, gun bans attract them.” Walter Mondale
Hmmmmmmm
December 15th, 2012
5:57 pm
@Mama Says
If we have trained people in these schools that have the ability to protect against catastrophic violence of this nature, then the odds of multiple deaths goes way down… The absurdity of bringing up gun control again and again is just comical! If you have procedures in place for everybody that enters a school with this kind of protection, you will find the incidence rate go WAY down. IMHO, some of you tree huggers will probably disagree…
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 15th, 2012
5:58 pm
josef:
Probably our “mother country”.
willie lynch
December 15th, 2012
5:58 pm
td
December 15th, 2012
5:41 pm
My point is the position of the gun rights side is ridiculous. I believe the moneyed lobbies will keep the issue in a quagmire against what could only be described as good sense policy that says we should ban guns.
The idea that your gun will protect you against the tyranny of the all powerful government is absolutely ridiculous. You as a private citizen could not buy enough arms to protect yourself against the government. If they want it/you they’ll get it/you. And as for protecting your home if your assailant has a baseball bat and you do too your chances of survival are much better than if you both had a gun.
Do you see a NEED for gun ownership?
Jay
December 15th, 2012
5:59 pm
from the Washington Post:
“Connecticut chief medical examiner H Wayne Carver II said that the victims each suffered three to 11 gunshot wounds and appeared to have died quickly. “All of wounds that I know of were caused by the long weapon,” he said, referring to the semi-automatic Bushmaster rifle found at the scene.”
RF
December 15th, 2012
5:59 pm
“It’s none of your business.”
I think if you ask the parents of one of the kids killed yesterday, they might be thinking it is our business to talk about it and ask some tough questions. It is my business if I’m sitting in a movie theater or college classroom or my child’s elementary school and someone comes in with an assortment of them.
Again, simply saying it’s none of my business doesn’t negate my right to ask why we need the large clips and semi-auto weapons on the general market. I don’t have any legal right to know who has them, I’ll give you that. But why does it aggravate you so that I simply ask for one, single, solitary good reason for someone to have one other than just because they want to? I don’t mean to aggravate you, please know that. I just want to know one reasonable, sensible use for it. Collect guns, hunt, target shoot all you want. That’s fine. But there’s no purpose in those being in general circulation that I can think of, and having that is a lot worse than collecting stamps or antique furniture.
I’m going to retire from this debate as it’s obviously not where I need to be today. I’m not trying to be obstinate just to create an argument. It’s time for us as a nation to seriously reconsider our attitudes about guns and either do something to better regulate their safe use or educate everyone about their potential dangers. Something positive has to start coming out of these tragedies.
Matti
December 15th, 2012
6:00 pm
It’s us. It’s our culture that glorifies violence as not only the solution to certain problems, but as a form of nightly entertainment. It’s a culture that cares more about swagger and strut and power than whether our citizens get medical care when they’re sick, especially if they’re mentally ill. Look away from the weird people. Try not to think about it. What time does **insert name of favorite cop show that begins and ends with brutal violence** start?
We can ask: “What have we become?” but make no mistake. It’s us. We are ALL complicit.
Hmmmmmmm
December 15th, 2012
6:00 pm
And then there was willie lynch… Poster child for gun control… Jeez…
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 15th, 2012
6:01 pm
josef:
P.S.
They’ve always been a little ticked off because they could control their own people (without guns) but couldn’t control us (with guns).
There’s a message there somewhere.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 15th, 2012
6:03 pm
And finally:
“The Second Amendment is the Equal Rights Amendment.” Jannalee Tobias
Until tomorrow ……………….
Soothsayer
December 15th, 2012
6:03 pm
This here’s what them gun is good fer!
josef
December 15th, 2012
6:04 pm
MATTI
Word.
SCOUT
And then there is the argument that Doggone puts forward. They shipped their malcontent masses offshore to become us.
JamVet
December 15th, 2012
6:05 pm
I don’t understand those who would outlaw abortion.
We’ve been there and done that, remember? And it was a colossal failure.
THAT is why we no longer send women to prison or watch them die needlessly – somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 deaths per decade. Many from infection and hemorrhaging afterward.
Women often tried to induce abortion or cause a miscarriage by throwing themselves down stairs or inflicting violence on themselves. They ingested, douched with or inserted into themselves a chilling variety of chemicals and toxins–from bleach to potassium permanganate to turpentine to gunpowder and whiskey. Knitting needles, crochet hooks, scissors and coat hangers were all among the tools used by women who had no choice but to resort to these means.
Yes, lets return to that, shall we?
The 1973 laws have survived serious legal challenges in 1976, 1986, 1993 and 2007. They stand and will likely stand forever. There is no going back.
Hallelujah.
RF
December 15th, 2012
6:06 pm
“There has been the mass killing of over 2,000 children today alone in this country by their mothers and you progressives say nothing or even worse approve of this murder.”
Really? Where do you get those numbers? Please don’t quote Fox, heritage, or breitbart…
NOONE here approves of murder. And how dare you attempt to hide behind abortion to justify the slaughter of 27 innocent people. That is, perhaps, the very indication of just how low some of you far-right nuts will go in your undying faith in the party. Slaughter’s okay so long as they were born and lived a few years, is that it?
I’m out. This is getting worse instead of better.
That Black Guy
December 15th, 2012
6:06 pm
RF,
I have been reading these comments (along with the ones from yesterday). You are arguing from a position of emotion, not reason.
Yesterday, all you talked about was “automatic” weapons, until yolu were corrected.
Then you switched to “assault” weapons, until you were corrected.
Today, its semi-automatic.
EXACTLY what do you know about guns? Seriously.
A 12 ga pump action shotgun is a extremely lethal weapon. I could be in a room with 7 targets, and 7 rounds (shells for the shotgun). With the shotgun (not a semi-automatic, assault weapon) I could hit 6 out of 7 at least. With an “assault” weapon, maybe 4 out of 7, depending on distance.
There are hammerless revolvers that do not require cocking before firing, JUST LIKE semi-automatics. Fire rate depends on finger speed in both weapons.
My point is that NO problem has ever been rationally solved when argued from a position of emotion.
Brosephus™
December 15th, 2012
6:07 pm
Mama Says: The fact that you and others have guns (as I do ) has little bearing on the federal governments decision making process. You and I are no match for today’s government powers.
I tried to explain that earlier, but I think it fell on deaf ears. The best prevention against government overtaking the will of the people is that the people can actually run and get elected to become “the government”. What’s happened instead is that people, on both sides, have basically abdicated that security to an almost permanently entrenched ruling class, and installing a ruling class was not what the founders intended.
Soothsayer
December 15th, 2012
6:10 pm
How many gun deaths do you think this Lanza fellow has seen on the TEEVEE and in the movies since he was old enough to realize what he was seeing? 1,000? 5,000? 10,000? MORE?
pogo
December 15th, 2012
6:10 pm
Ask SID how illegal drugs are going in his country and see what he says. Drug violence and drug overdoses kill more people worldwide every year than firearms do (if you leave war and revolution). What good has the Controlled Substance Act and the DEA done in curtailling illegal drug use in this country and the death it brings? The answer; nothing. The US is more addicted than ever and I would imagine that “SID’s” country is as well.
The sad truth is if a person is mentally ill, smart enough and driven enough he/she will find a way to kill. For that matter, any number of things such as natural gas, gasoline tankers and many many other things that we use everyday could be used for genecide if a person were sick and smart enough to do it. And make no mistake, there are those out there that ARE smart enough and warped enough to do it. What we should be asking ourselves is what in the hell is it about our society that is creating these monsters? Politics? Yes. Religion? Yes. Our society’s obsession with violence and its glorious portrayal by Hollywood and by the media? Yes. And the list goes on forever.
That Black Guy
December 15th, 2012
6:13 pm
RF, also…
Doggone is right.
There is no need to explain why a law abiding citizen owns anything that is legal.
There is no “need” for me to own a $70 bottle of rum, but so what if I do.
My brother has no “need” to own over 50 knives/swords, but it is still none of your business.
I can GUARANTEE that YOU own something that someone feels that you don’t “need”, would you give it up to make them feel better?
indigo
December 15th, 2012
6:15 pm
td – 5:54
15 to 20% of all pregnacies end in spontaneous abortion.
That means that thousands of these happen every day.
The Bible says that God knows even when a sparrow falls.
So, he must know about all these miscarragies.
Have you complained to God today about all these mass killings?
Brosephus™
December 15th, 2012
6:16 pm
If we have trained people in these schools that have the ability to protect against catastrophic violence of this nature, then the odds of multiple deaths goes way down…
If that were really the case, then we wouldn’t have a single military casualty, would we? Are they not highly trained in combat and dealing with catastrophic violence?
td
December 15th, 2012
6:17 pm
RF
December 15th, 2012
6:06 pm
I am not justifying the mass murder yesterday because there is no justification for it and it is a horrible crime.
I am pointing out the hypocrisy of people like you that will condone abortion at the same time you cry for murdered children at 6 or 7 years old.
Here is a link to the statistics and before you blast the source you should see that they have the CDC data which is where I got my numbers from.
http://www.christianliferesources.com/article/u-s-abortion-statistics-by-year-1973-current-1042
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 15th, 2012
6:17 pm
There is no “need” for me to own a $70 bottle of rum, but so what if I do.
Really?
The most expensive bottle of rum I ever owned was around $50 and it was Casa Bacardi and I haven’t seen a bottle of that in years.
josef
December 15th, 2012
6:18 pm
pogo
@ 6:10
And, again, Sir, amen.
George Watson
December 15th, 2012
6:18 pm
I am always amused by the people who say there is nothing that can be done. Or by the ones who say the only solution is to give everyone a gun and hope for the best. There is no doubt that the guns and access to them are only a symptom of the larger problem of how we sanction violence in our culture. But it is an important symptom – and one that needs dealing with along with all the other symptoms and causes.
Regarding what we can do to change the culture of violence, let us remember we changed our culture of smoking, we are changing our culture that sanctioned drinking and driving, and we should not now find it difficult to change a culture that glorifies the horror of taking someone’s life. All that is required for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.
the cat
December 15th, 2012
6:19 pm
td-where was your god when kids were being shot down yesterday?
Brosephus™
December 15th, 2012
6:19 pm
There is no “need” for me to own a $70 bottle of rum, but so what if I do.
If you do own it, you’d better share it bro!!!! Don’t bogart the booze!!!!
the cat
December 15th, 2012
6:22 pm
td
December 15th, 2012
5:45 pm
the cat
December 15th, 2012
5:38 pm
It is easier to buy a gun than it is to adopt a puppy. Sad but true.
It is easier to kill an unborn child then it is to buy a gun or to adopt a puppy.
I don’t have a problem with this, you do.
josef
December 15th, 2012
6:26 pm
SID
And so, like so many of our detractors and critics from abroad, you make your sweeping assertions and then go off satisfied in your smug superiority. I ask you, though, and not knowing your country, has the “stupid” American ever pulled your country’s chestnuts from the fire?
There have been many occasions when the rest of the more highly “civilized” world was grateful to have the wild and wooly barbarians on their side…
JamVet
December 15th, 2012
6:28 pm
Great post by GW at 6:18.
Clearly we have something other than a “well regulated militia” in this country.
I am becoming intrigued with the idea of administering tests to own firearms much the way we do for driver’s licenses and other requirements.
Could these be used in the battle to keep the emotionally/mentally unstable/incompetent people from obtaining them through legal channels?
It is risky, but the reward could be commensurate.
We need new ideas to combat the “do nothing; it is all hopeless” talk…
barking frog
December 15th, 2012
6:31 pm
JamVet
I am becoming intrigued with the idea of administering tests to own firearms much the way we do for driver’s licenses and other requirements.
Could these be used in the battle to keep the emotionally/mentally unstable/incompetent people from obtaining them through legal channels?
…………………………………………………………………….
It doesn’t keep them out of cars….or taxis, I hear.
Mama Says
December 15th, 2012
6:31 pm
Nobody is trying to deprive sane people from having guns, it would be nice to try to ensure that you are sane before you get it. A little moderation and thinking would do us good.
But for my attack on liberals.
You may not know it but you would take the cons argument away from us if you would treat criminals like criminals instead of looking for what made them do it. If they kill someone they should be killed. If they rape they should be sterilized.
You spend way to much time excusing what they did instead of preventing them from doing it again.
Kill those who pray on us and we will have no need for guns in our homes
josef
December 15th, 2012
6:32 pm
ZamVet
“I am becoming intrigued with the idea of administering tests to own firearms much the way we do for driver’s licenses…”
And you think that licensing process has got the wackos off the streets? I know where you live. Go down to Clairmont and Buford for a few minutes and then get back with me on that argument
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
6:34 pm
“I am becoming intrigued with the idea of administering tests to own firearms much the way we do for driver’s licenses and other requirements”
it might come to that, but if it does I would include EVERYONE in the family over the age of 6. Because the putative owner is not going to be the only one with access if there are other family memberes. And even a 6 year old child can point and fire a gun if it’s small and light enough.
Though that could be amended based on the weapons involved. The bigger and heavier they are, the older you could change the requirement.
deegee
December 15th, 2012
6:35 pm
Maybe we should start by taking away the stigma of mental illness. Parents shouldn’t be so ashamed of having a mentally disturbed child that they pretend that the child is okay. We should be spending at least as much money on treating the mentally ill as we are spending on football and baseball stadiums.
That Black Guy
December 15th, 2012
6:37 pm
Kam and Bro, couldn’t bring myself to buy it at the time. If I see it again, it’s mine.
josef
December 15th, 2012
6:38 pm
deegee
@ 6:35
Yes.
josef
December 15th, 2012
6:41 pm
al SHARIFF
I know that our stupid American laws protecting our privacy and freedom of speech won’t allow you to do it, but would that you could let us in on which is Sid’s country…
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
6:42 pm
“Parents shouldn’t be so ashamed of having a mentally disturbed child that they pretend that the child is okay”
But that brings the discussion around to healthcare. Yes, too many parents hide from themselves that their child has problems…but also too many parents do that because they can’t afford the cost of treatment, so they pretend the problem doesn’t exist.
That Black Guy
December 15th, 2012
6:43 pm
Ok, krew.
Going to a birthday party for my brother.
56yrs old, former crackhead.
He’s looking good, doing good, and I love him and I want him to know it.
Taking him to the Falcons/Giants game tomorrow (go Giants).
Hug your kids/nieces/nephews/grands/godbabies.
josef
December 15th, 2012
6:44 pm
DOGGONE
@ 5:42
That, too.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 15th, 2012
6:46 pm
That Black Guy
I’ve been trying to get Fred to come across on a bottle of JW Blue he’s been sitting on.
He hates Scotch.
The GOV
December 15th, 2012
6:56 pm
Strange, I tend to agree with pogo, That Black Guy and Brocephus. I guess it’s not really strange but their post seem to reflect mine. I’m still trying to get my head around it. The heart break seems too much this time around. Will this be forgotten in a week or two?
I think the president made a statement that has to be heeded.
Brosephus™
December 15th, 2012
6:58 pm
TBG
Keep a brother in mind when you buy that bottle!!! Enjoy the party.
————————-
Just saw an interesting stat on ABC Nightly News. Said that, since 1982, 3/4 of the guns used in mass shootings were all legally purchased.
JamVet
December 15th, 2012
6:59 pm
Well two defeatists from the get go have weighed in!
OK, then. Let’s do nothing and party on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLpFMDmBo9s
deegee
December 15th, 2012
7:02 pm
Treating the mentally ill is expensive and challenging. Look at how we treat our PTSD veterans. You can’t just give them a pill and you can’t institutionalize them forever. Caring for a family member with a mental disorder is extremely stressful. Maybe we need day care centers for mental patients like we have day care centers for the young and the elderly.
Recon 0311 2533
December 15th, 2012
7:09 pm
” But in the meantime, disarming the general public isn’t a bad idea.”
It’s a terrible idea unless you advocate for disarming freedom and eliminating personal responsibility/accountability and instituting an authoritarian form of government.
Mama Says
December 15th, 2012
7:11 pm
Degree,
That’s more BS. Our kids are dying. If we want more sensitivity for mental illness that’s fine, we can sympathize all you like, when we visit them in an insane asylum.
Those who would walk into any place armed to the teeth with the intent on killing us should find no safe refuge, regardless of what they suffer from. While you are being nice they are killing more and more of us.
Bro,
You are in law enforcement as I am.
Do you feel safe that we have done what we need to to prevent or diminish the nut jobs with guns.
I cannot tell you how many nuts I have taken guns from. we are taught to follow the process. Take the gun, take them to jail let a court find them insane, send them to a hospital and then get out on meds years later. Only to wonder the streets once again. Hoping they keep taking the meds.
As a cop I see no useful purpose for these harsh drug laws that punish social users and fill up our jails while we have tho place to put the truly insane people in our society. We need to be protected from the crazed not the 22 year old holding a bag of weed.
I know that you you would agree, from your experience, the constitution we swore to is flawed in its application to modern times.
With that said we must make a decision within our society. It gets big billing that a military type firearm was used but I will tell you. The gun used only shoots one bullet per trigger pull. There is no difference between it and a handgun as far As death rate. It is already illegal to convert a semi auto to full auto. had he had shot all the kids with a pistol he would have gotten the same result. One trigger pull one bullet. A commonly used Glock pistol carries up to 16 rounds per mag. If he had one Glock and three magazines he would have had 45 rounds at his disposal, twice the number of kids he killed.
Before I forget. How much would you like to bet that had this idiot not killed himself the government would have tested him, he would have been found insane and we would have had liberal philosophy take over. The idea that we should treat the killer rather then kill him.
Our system is insane and we have outlawed reasoned thinking !
josef
December 15th, 2012
7:14 pm
Mama Says said earlier…
“I find myself in a debate with my own side.”
I would suggest in all due respect that you (we) are in a debate with ourselves. And that, I think, is a good thing and where we should be going here.
Scuba Steve
December 15th, 2012
7:16 pm
Have any of you ever played “Spot the Glenn Beck listener” on this blog? It’s actually a lot of fun.
God rest the souls of those children and adults.
Gun control NOW. Not tomorrow, but NOW.
Recon 0311 2533
December 15th, 2012
7:17 pm
Our society of political correctness has caused us to excuse or ignore antisocial behaviors and in fact even celebrate it as normalcy that we should accept or at least be apathetic toward. In that respect we’re all culpable for tragedies like Sandy Hook.
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
7:19 pm
“Gun control NOW. Not tomorrow, but NOW”
We have gun control already. Didn’t do much to prevent this tragedy, now did it?
td
December 15th, 2012
7:19 pm
Scuba Steve
December 15th, 2012
7:16 pm
What type of “gun control” is going to stop this killing?
josef
December 15th, 2012
7:20 pm
Mama Says…
I shoulda knowed you was a cop…lock ‘em all up and throw away the key…
More seriously and more respectfully, though, knowing that lends the necessary perspective to follow much of what you are saying…
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
7:20 pm
“Our society of political correctness has caused us to excuse or ignore antisocial behaviors”
and what behaviors are those, and what would you do about them?
Scuba Steve
December 15th, 2012
7:23 pm
TD
Let’s try this scenario:
Woman: “Hi, I’m a school teacher, I’d like to purchase a Bushmaster .223 and a few handguns, since it is my Constitutional right to do so.”
Salesperson: “No.”
Scuba Steve
December 15th, 2012
7:24 pm
Doggone
Nope, it sure did not. So time to go further and get more restrictive. What’s hard to understand here?
Thomas
December 15th, 2012
7:25 pm
Guns are a side line issue. We are are an over prescribed country.
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
7:26 pm
“Salesperson: “No.””
And then the business gets sued, the sales person gets fired, and the teacher walks awa with her guns and a tidy bit of cash to go with them.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 15th, 2012
7:26 pm
Salesperson: “No.”
Fantasy land scenario.
td
December 15th, 2012
7:28 pm
Scuba Steve
December 15th, 2012
7:23 pm
TD
Let’s try this scenario:
Woman: “Hi, I’m a school teacher, I’d like to purchase a Bushmaster .223 and a few handguns, since it is my Constitutional right to do so.”
Salesperson: “No.”
Woman: I have never committed a crime as my background check says, I am not a convicted felon and I do not have any mental disorder. Under what laws are you restricting my Constitutional right to keep and bear arms?
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
7:28 pm
“Nope, it sure did not. So time to go further and get more restrictive. What’s hard to understand here?”
Such as?
barking frog
December 15th, 2012
7:31 pm
No gun control laws would have prevented this tragedy.
No mental incompetence laws would have prevented this tragedy.
Only better protection at the school could have prevented this tragedy.
Scuba Steve
December 15th, 2012
7:31 pm
Yeah that crazy fantasy world where the most developed country on Earth has a reasonable gun-related homicide rate per capita. Loonyville, right?
“But thurrr taykin mahhh cunnntreeeee” I can hear it from here. Put your big boy pants on. Time to get serious about the issue. Americans continually $*#@ up the concept of “Freedom.” Time to take some of it away. I know it’ll kill you inside a little. The good news? It won’t ACTULLY kill you, like those children.
Recon 0311 2533
December 15th, 2012
7:32 pm
“and what behaviors are those, and what would you do about them?”
How about gangster rap music glorifying violence, violent video games, violence in movies and on television and a society that either supports it, condones it or is apathetic toward it. What can be done about it? The media could speak out against it and a sensible level of censorship. Oh, and another would be for politicians in government to discontinue publicizing details of military operations that should remain top secret.
Scuba Steve
December 15th, 2012
7:33 pm
TD:
Under the common sense philosophy that says If you spend the majority of your time reading The Cat in the Hat and coloring with grade schoolers, you don’t need these. I couldn’t give 2 shakes about what you want.
Mama Says
December 15th, 2012
7:33 pm
TD,
As a conservative would you support the background currently required including a mental health check ? I mean where a doctor interviews you and renders a verdict.
We now have the ability to evaluate by a simple test or questionaire.
This could be taken when you complete your background info, reviewed by a professional and approved within weeks. You could get your gun after the review.
The catch here is that gun ownership would also require the passing of a safety course and that you yourself would be held legally responsible if your gun is used in a crime.
We currently have a Party to the Crime law on our books. The gun owner should be eligible for punishment up to half the sentence which would be given to the actual offender.
In other words you would pass a criminal background check, a mental health check and safety course before possessing a gun. You then would be subject to the law should you not secure your gun and it ends up being used in a crime.
If your gun was used to rob a store, and it wasnt taken from you by forceful theft you would be subject to 5 years in jail. Since in Georgia using a gun in an armed robbery is an automatic 10 years the fact that you didn’t lock it up should get you half of that sentence.
God help you if you fail to secure your gun and its used in a murder.
Brosephus™
December 15th, 2012
7:34 pm
Do you feel safe that we have done what we need to to prevent or diminish the nut jobs with guns.
I think that’s an impossible task to accomplish. Think about the old movie “Falling Down” with Michael Douglas. In that movie, he was a defense contractor who simply snapped. There’s almost no way to predict something of that nature as opposed to someone who’s displayed signs of mental illness through their lifetime. I’ve resigned myself to the notion that we will always have these incidents, and the only recourse is to teach people how to get the hell out of dodge when all hell breaks loose.
know that you you would agree, from your experience, the constitution we swore to is flawed in its application to modern times.
I don’t think it’s the Constitution that’s flawed. The flaws come from the modern legislators who are no longer statesmen but merely puppets for special interest groups who have their own agendas to suit their needs as opposed to having elected officials who put the interests of America and Americans first.
Before I forget. How much would you like to bet that had this idiot not killed himself the government would have tested him, he would have been found insane and we would have had liberal philosophy take over. The idea that we should treat the killer rather then kill him.
Had he been arrested alive and found to be insane, then the laws dictate his pathway for punishment, not some liberal philosophy. We are a nation of laws and not of liberal or conservative policy ideas.
I think there are many outdated laws and such. It’s not your or my job to re-write the legislation though. Our job is to enforce the laws as written, passed, and signed into law by those who are supposed to govern wisely. That said, it severly handicaps us at our jobs when those who are supposed to govern fail to do their job.
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
7:35 pm
“How about gangster rap music glorifying violence, violent video games, violence in movies and on television and a society that either supports it, condones it or is apathetic toward it”
Those are not behaviors. YOU said behaviors…WHAT behaviors and what would you do about them?
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 15th, 2012
7:36 pm
Loonyville, right?
You offered no reason for the school teacher to fail the background check.
Your scenario: loonyville, right.
Scuba Steve
December 15th, 2012
7:37 pm
Doggone
Such as tests that are so taxing and difficult to pass that they are prohibitive in their very nature, such as shrinking the market to make access extremely difficult. Such as the elimination of gun shows and websites that are essentially Craigslist for guns. Such as penalties SO punitive that one convicted of a gun-related crime wouldn’t see daylight for decades.
Before you start, I KNOW there are millions of guns already out there. We aren’t putting that genie back in the bottle, but since when has that been a good reason to not try?
Scuba Steve
December 15th, 2012
7:38 pm
Kamchak
Under my scenario she wouldn’t even get to the background check stage before being turned away.
Recon 0311 2533
December 15th, 2012
7:40 pm
Those are not behaviors. YOU said behaviors…
They influence anti-social behaviors and I’ve offered my suggestions as where we might start.
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
7:40 pm
“Had he been arrested alive and found to be insane, then the laws dictate his pathway for punishment”
Yes….but I have one opinion that fits in here. I am not a fan of the “not guilty by reason of insanity” finding. Sane or insane, if it’s proven the person did the crime they are guilty. I would prefer a “guilty, but insane” finding. That states more clearly what happened AND the state of the person who did the deed. And it makes it easier to keep them incarcerated, if their crime warrants it. But also idicates they need treatment.
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
7:40 pm
“Such as tests that are so taxing and difficult to pass that they are prohibitive in their very nature”
Such as?
josef
December 15th, 2012
7:41 pm
BROSEPHUS
“Falling Down…” An excellent film. Perhaps now would be a good time for me to revisit it.
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
7:41 pm
“They influence anti-social behaviors and I’ve offered my suggestions as where we might start”
And you STILL can’t provide examples of the behaviors you think we need to get under control.
Shortage of guns?........Tell that to the 20 children that were MURDERED.
December 15th, 2012
7:43 pm
“Our society of political correctness has caused us to excuse or ignore antisocial behaviors”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Political Correctness is based upon the concept that “language represents thought, and may even control thought.
The only thing that can control thought is people.
Mama Says
December 15th, 2012
7:44 pm
josef,
I have seen many dead people. This includes adults as well as kids. There is simply no excuse for our society standing by holding onto an old constitutional attempt to possess our guns in fear of government suppression while our kids die using the very instrument we continually say gives us our freedom.
I am a member of government, I understand the potential abuse of its power, dare say I have witnesses the abuse in action. That abuse can be controlled without storming the streets with guns.
My experience has shown me that law abiding people are law abiding by virtue of there morals and ethics. Those who lack those virtues will threaten us regardless of the weapon of choice. We should not make it easier for those who would, to kill us.
Recon 0311 2533
December 15th, 2012
7:46 pm
“”And you STILL can’t provide examples of the behaviors you think we need to get under control.”
How about breaking into schools and murdering innocent children and their teachers as an example of anti-social behavior. I’d include an LOL for your question but it’s no laughing matter.
Scuba Steve
December 15th, 2012
7:47 pm
Doggone
Don’t have all those answers yet. What I do know is we’ve wasted valuable time coming up with them for the sake of playing the “But it’s my riiiiiiight” game.
Tell you what though, give me…3 months to research it. In the meantime, we’ll suspend all firearm sales in the U.S. in the interest of safety. Think that’ll stick?
Of course not, cuz it isn’t about safety. The NRA knows what many in this country have figured out — paranoia puts plenty of food on their tables.
bman.
December 15th, 2012
7:47 pm
action-packed thriller at 8PM on TNT tonight…name of the movie = Shooter!
what’s the topic tonight?
Brosephus™
December 15th, 2012
7:49 pm
Doggone @ 7:40
Sounds logical to me.
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
7:49 pm
“How about breaking into schools and murdering innocent children and their teachers as an example of anti-social behavior. I’d include an LOL for your question but it’s no laughing matter”
And those are already illegal behaviors. You didn’t say illegal…you said anti-social. So WHAT anti-social behaviors do you think we need to get under control and how would you do it?
td
December 15th, 2012
7:50 pm
Mama Says
December 15th, 2012
7:33 pm
Under your theory of Party to the Crime law and guns then why should this not also be extended to drug dealers that sell or give drugs to people that then go and commit crimes? How about people that loan their cars to people that have been drinking and that person goes out and hits someone?
If you really want to test your theory of responsibility then parents should be held half accountable for anything their children do because they are ultimately responsible for their children’s actions as much as the gun owner is responsible for his/her gun under your theory.
josef
December 15th, 2012
7:50 pm
MAMA
With all due respect, and please don’t take this the wrong way, but we are all influenced by our jobs. Those of us in the public sector are especially so. You are involved in an area which sees life at its worst. I am involved in an area where I see life at its best. You become overly pessimistic. I become overly idealistic. We are both right. We are both wrong.
Should we be listened to? Yes. Should we be heeded? Probably not. Neither of us is particularly realistic.
Recon 0311 2533
December 15th, 2012
7:51 pm
We should not make it easier for those who would, to kill us
Lets not make it more difficult to kill them
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
7:51 pm
“Tell you what though, give me…3 months to research it. In the meantime, we’ll suspend all firearm sales in the U.S. in the interest of safety. Think that’ll stick”
No
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
7:52 pm
Thanks again Bro!
Recon 0311 2533
December 15th, 2012
7:54 pm
“So WHAT anti-social behaviors do you think we need to get under control and how would you do it?”
You’re attempting to split hairs to hang on to your weak argument but that’s okay.
The Thin Guy
December 15th, 2012
7:54 pm
Back in the 1930s Bonnie and Clyde along with the likes of Machine Gun Kelly had Thompson sub machine guns, Browning Automatic Rifles, Colt 45 pistols, etc. but they didn’t go into theaters, schools, hospitals and just start killing people at random. They killed when they had a reason to. The worst mass killings at an American school involved explosives rather than firearms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
back in 1927. The only effective gun control measure that might work would be to roll the Second Amendment back to the arms available in the Seventeenth Century when it was passed; muzzle loading flintlocks. Or to repeal the Second Amendment. Problem is prohibition with alcohol and drugs hasn’t worked that well. I hate to admit it but I have no answer of how to solve this problem. Neither does anyone else.
Brosephus™
December 15th, 2012
7:54 pm
josef
I’ve gone back and watched it several times in the wake of tragedies like this. I know it’s Hollywood, but it drives home the fact that some people simply snap under pressure without any semblance of mental issues prior to that point. We can’t predict or foresee everything. That’s why it’s always a great idea to have an escape plan for most situations.
Danny Bishop
December 15th, 2012
7:55 pm
Commit a crime with a gun, have a hand removed, outlaw the right to a prosthetic limb for those punished. It sounds ghoulish but it would make the second offense much more difficult and a third offense virtually impossible. It’s not the availability of guns that makes the U. S. the leader, it’s the lack of adequate punishment that deters the criminal. This particular type of event is impossible to predict or stop but we can certainly reduce the number of everyday gun crimes with more effective punishment.
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
7:56 pm
“You’re attempting to split hairs to hang on to your weak argument but that’s okay.”
In other words, you said something that sounds good…but doesn’t mean a damn thing. You DON’T KNOW what anti-social behaviors we need to control. Or, to put it more bluntly – it’s the “someone should do something” argument.
Shortage of guns?........Tell that to the 20 children that were MURDERED.
December 15th, 2012
7:57 pm
@Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
7:41 pm
“They influence anti-social behaviors and I’ve offered my suggestions as where we might start”
And you STILL can’t provide examples of the behaviors you think we need to get under control.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. The fearful are caught as often as the bold.”
One behavior that needs to change is that of the Survivalists.
Survivalists often acquire a stockpile of weapons that would help them survive a catastrophe.
Like the mother of the Connecticut shooter who was a survivalist.
Her own weapons were used to KILL HER.
Was it WORTH IT?
FEAR: False Evidence Appearing Real.
barking frog
December 15th, 2012
7:58 pm
The finding of guilty by a judge or jury means that a defendant’s mind
was able to determine right from wrong and did wrong. An insane
mind cannot determine right from wrong and cannot be guilty.
Brosephus™
December 15th, 2012
7:59 pm
Commit a crime with a gun, have a hand removed, outlaw the right to a prosthetic limb for those punished.
You have to deal with the whole “cruel and unusual punishment” thing in the Constitution when trying to implement such a law. I don’t know of any court that would find such punishment as being Constitutional.
josef
December 15th, 2012
7:59 pm
BROSEPHUS
I’m putting it on my plate…
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
7:59 pm
“This particular type of event is impossible to predict or stop but we can certainly reduce the number of everyday gun crimes with more effective punishment”
So institute a punitive punishment that will do nothing to stop the kind of atrocity that happened yesterday. It’s what I call the “Argus Filch” argument: “I want to see some PUNISHMENT” He didn’t care WHO got punished, as long as SOMEONE did.
catlady
December 15th, 2012
8:01 pm
Well, we are pulling away school services that might provide identification and counseling. We routinely give tacit approval to bullies at school by not holding them accountable–too many lawsuits. We don’t want to “label” a kid. Meanwhile, so many of our kids are angry that they are not getting their “fair share” (Like many of our adults, I might add.) Drugs and alcohol have invaded and taken over many families. There seems to be little safety net for citizens who have mental health problems.
I hurt for these families who have lost their loved ones.