Newtown massacre reawakens question of gun control
The United States suffers more gun deaths and mass shootings than any other major industrialized country. It’s not even close. And of the dozen most deadly mass killings in U.S. history, half have occurred within the past five years. In other words, if you believe that these things are happening more and more often, the numbers validate that belief.
The question is why.
The NRA and its supporters say the problem is not easy access to guns. To the contrary, they often argue that the problem is a shortage of guns. If only we had more guns in circulation, fewer would die. The day before the tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary School, the Michigan Legislature embraced that theory in passing a law allowing those with concealed carry permits to possess weapons in schools, churches and other formerly gun-free areas. Michigan’s governor has yet to say whether he intends to sign such a bill.
However, there is no evidence to support the NRA’s contention. Those countries with much lower death rates do not achieve those rates by allowing free and easy access to guns by almost everybody, regardless of training. Quite the contrary. Those few countries in which guns are even more ubiquitous than the United States — countries such as Iraq — have much higher death rates.
In addition, gun laws are more lax here in the South and guns themselves are more numerous. Under the NRA theory, that ought to produce a more civil, less violent society. The data say otherwise:
On the other hand, those who turn reflexively to gun control as an answer must acknowledge the inadequacies of that approach as well. Yesterday’s school shooting took place in Connecticut, a state with strong gun-control laws. The pistols that were used — a Sig Sauer and a Glock of undetermined model — had been legally obtained and were registered to Nancy Lanza, the late mother of the 20-year-old shooter. It has been widely reported that a Bushmaster .223 assault weapon — a version of the AR-15 — was found in the trunk of the vehicle driven by Adam Lanza to the school. However, Lt. Paul Vance of the Connecticut state patrol said at a press conference this morning that all recovered weapons were found in close proximity to Lanza’s body.
The high kill rate in the shootings — only one person was wounded and survived — suggests Lanza was experienced with firearms. But based on what we know now, it is hard to explain in concrete, direct fashion how any reasonable set of changes to our gun laws would have prevented Friday’s tragedy.
For example, I have not been able to find any more specific information about the types of pistols used in the attack, or whether those pistols or the Bushmaster were equipped with high-capacity magazines. As a practical matter, outlawing pistols would not be feasible given how many are already in circulation. It would also be impossible politically. Outlawing high-capacity magazines might be another matter, but again, as of yet we have no indication they played a role in this attack.
Guns are inanimate objects. Guns don’t kill people; people kill people. I accept all of that as fact. However, I would have no problem whatsoever with again outlawing military-style assault weapons. Neither would the U.S. Supreme Court, even based on its most recent pro-gun rulings.
As gun supporters point out, and accurately so, other semi-automatic weapons are capable of delivering the same high fire rate as those described as assault weapons. It is striking, however, that these “other” weapons do not typically show up in the hands of mass murderers such as Adam Lanza. The military-style design of assault weapons may be superficial, but it gives them a powerful mystique to weak-minded souls pursuing visions of vengeance and power.
Speaking in general, rather than in reaction to the Newtown strategy, it is reasonable to propose that the legal ability to purchase and possess deadly firearms be linked to training and testing on the responsible use of such weapons. That would be a regulation of people, not of guns. Such proposals would nonetheless be fought bitterly by the NRA because they would reduce gun sales, and the NRA is in many ways nothing more than a front for its gun-industry sponsors.
Such laws would in no way infringe on constitutional rights as outlined in the Second Amendment and Supreme Court opinions. The millions of law-abiding, responsible gun owners in this country would have nothing to fear from such a system. In fact, as the NRA often points out correctly, those gun owners who have gone through the steps required to obtain a concealed carry permit rarely use those guns in crime. That record suggests a possible path forward for those who recognize both the constitutional right to possess firearms and the necessity of mitigating the damage done when those guns fall into the wrong hands.
– Jay Bookman
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
1,704 comments Add your comment
Oscar
December 15th, 2012
12:46 pm
The best weapon for home protection is a 12 guage pump shotgun.
I don’t think anyone needs a semi with 15 rounds – that is likely to jam after the first shot.
And a small 38 six shot revolver that can be carried outside the home is better than a semi.
the cat
December 15th, 2012
12:46 pm
If I hear one more idiot say this is the fault of God not being allowed in our schools I may blow.
Where was God yesterday while those poor kids were being blown away?
Dunwoodian
December 15th, 2012
12:46 pm
AP is reporting the Bushmaster 223 was found inside the school along with the two pistols. This information was provided by a law enforcement officer you only divulged it on the condition of anonymity. We will see if this turns out to be true or not.
RF
December 15th, 2012
12:46 pm
“If they are law abiding…it’s none of OUR business why they want one.”
It becomes our business when those citizens stop being law abiding and use those very weapons to kill innocent people. Ask the families of those killed how they feel about it being none of our business. I suspect they’d tell you it just became our business yet again.
Brosephus™
December 15th, 2012
12:47 pm
If they are law abiding…it’s none of OUR business why they want one.
Count me in the agreed column!!
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 15th, 2012
12:47 pm
Just ban all ammunition and ban its manufacture worldwide. keep your guns.
Many gun owners already make their own ammunition.
barking frog
December 15th, 2012
12:48 pm
Brosephus made the best point for protection. Be aware of your surroundings.
The whole purpose of guards and warning devices is awareness. Shields
are for protection. Schoolchildren should be provided with as many shields
as we can erect. Not some political bs about rapid fire guns.
Christian Conservative
December 15th, 2012
12:49 pm
Its laughable that a left wing loon would lecture us on gun control. The secular progressives are the most responsible for this. They are the one’s who want GOD out of schools and promote repulsive lifestyles as if its the norm. One you blogs quoted a question that asked why this kind of thing didn’t happen 20,30, or 40 years ago. Its because we had a moral society where human life and traditional values stood out… This is the type of country the left wants. The folks that vote for democrats/aclu have made you beds. Instead of spewing non-sense about gun control your world view is what we have to live with…..
josef
December 15th, 2012
12:49 pm
OSCAR
A legitimate question, and the answer is no, not really. I, too, prefer to push it to the subconscious.
THE CAT
“Does it scare the beejeebus out of anyone else the kooks on this blog that have guns?”
Not calling names. but yes.
the cat
December 15th, 2012
12:50 pm
Kamchak-maybe so but i imagine most people have no clue or do not make their ammunition.
So ban gunpowder. what is another use for gun powder or bullets?
barking frog
December 15th, 2012
12:50 pm
Charter schools may have more protection.
Ison12
December 15th, 2012
12:50 pm
In addition, gun laws are more lax here in the South and guns themselves are more numerous. Under the NRA theory, that ought to produce a more civil, less violent society. The data say otherwise
Have guns will travel across international and state borders.
To date, there is no successful therapy for the treatment of sociopaths. Their ability to manipulate (charm) knows no bounds just as their violent tendencies know no bounds.
Warehousing the mentally ill is a violation of civil liberties.
Other than securing our children’s safety via trained and armed personnel, there is no solution.
Christian Conservative
December 15th, 2012
12:50 pm
Its funny how this kind of thing always happened in blue states……
td
December 15th, 2012
12:50 pm
RF
December 15th, 2012
12:36 pm
“Answer my question. Why does any citizen in this country NEED that kind of firepower in their homes? You don’t need semiautomatic weapons for hunting, you don’t need them for protection, you don’t need them for showing off or compensating for some lack of masculine confidence. Why then?”
Very simple reason because I believe the same as our founding fathers believed and the reason they developed a Constitutional right for us to own and carry guns.
“I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.”
George Mason
“Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people’s liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good.”
George Washington
the cat
December 15th, 2012
12:51 pm
Christian Conservative-where was your god yesterday?
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
12:51 pm
“It becomes our business when those citizens stop being law abiding and use those very weapons to kill innocent people”
But people who do that are, by definition, NOT law abiding. Law abiding people do not need to justify to you OR me WHY they want what they want. Just as I do not need to justify to someone who is afraid of dogs WHY I have them.
Recon 0311 2533
December 15th, 2012
12:51 pm
RF,
Collectors buy such firearms along with target shooters that obtain them as a harmless hobby. Those types of law abiding citizens should not be disallowed their enjoyment. The unfortunate mass murder of yesterday all the more horrific because of children who became victims have rightfully caused the outrage and this discourse. Keep in mind these types of mass killings account for less than 1% of crimes utilizing firearms. The other 99+% are typically caused by handguns, which could easily be double action single shot revolvers. Banning AR15’s with 15 to 20 round magazines won’t prevent much.
JamVet
December 15th, 2012
12:51 pm
I was proud of the President in his humanity and words yesterday.
I will do what I do, cry some, and then heal myself with music…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWBoeY0AAec
Christian Conservative
December 15th, 2012
12:52 pm
Ison12:
If you dig deeper into that data it will show you that its mostly gang violence…. Not law abiding citizens…
RF
December 15th, 2012
12:52 pm
Oscar: my dad worked in maintenance on second shift, often in very rough neighborhoods. He carried a fully registered, legal .22 pistol. I asked him once why something so small. He said anything bigger would be harder to get out of a holster and in most cases no more useful in close contact. He said it wasn’t about the number of bullets or size of the gun, it was about being able to accurately use it. He said it was stupid to think that larger magazines and popular style would give him any better ability to defend himself. He thinks people carrying anything bigger than a six-shot revolver are idiots who depend on the gun to do their thinking.
the cat
December 15th, 2012
12:52 pm
Who here is a member of a militia? Didn’t think so.
Oscar
December 15th, 2012
12:52 pm
Warehousing the mentally ill is a violation of civil liberties.
_____
Not if they are found to constitute a danger to themselves or others.
Tundra Dude
December 15th, 2012
12:53 pm
Boiling Frog wrote:
I have no problems with banning ALL guns. How about you?
“Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not.” ~ Thomas Jefferson
the cat
December 15th, 2012
12:54 pm
I am trying to understand why anyone needs a gun unless you shoot your supper. Let’s have a true discussion. convince me doggone why you need a gun.
NickC
December 15th, 2012
12:55 pm
I would like to suggest to any would be mass shooter seeking notoriety that they choose HSBC executives as your target rather than small children or holiday shoppers. Killing drug cartel and Al Queda supporters will not only get you notoriety but you’ll be seen as a hero to many rather than a pathetic, bed-wetter as is the case with these other mass gunmen.
DebbieDoRight - A Do Right Woman
December 15th, 2012
12:56 pm
RF: People need to know it’s okay to get help and recommend someone for help, and we need clearer processes for getting it.
True – - but mental health costs MEGA BUCKS. The insurance costs alone are staggering. My friend has a child who is schizoid — her insurance,(she’s a gubmint employee and they have some of the best), only covers her & her dependents for a certain amount per year. AFTER that amount it comes out of her own pocket until the next year rolls around.
Problem with that is that the MEDS alone break her. Her sons meds cost upwards to $2K per month. We haven’t even factored in the costs of couselling/pyschiatric help for her child; or if her child needs to be institutionalized or hospitalized for stabilization, etc.
A good indicator of the costs of Mental Health Care is the fact that it’s not covered in the Obamacare package.
================
josef: we need to be asking ourselves WHY we don’t discuss it when it has not hit us in the face and we’re naturally in knee-jerk mode?”
RF: history tends to show that in about a week, maybe two, we’ll have moved on and let it go yet again with nothing of any substance having been done
I think also it could be the fact that we, as humans, are “hard wired”, if you will to disassociate our selves from some things in order to maintain our sanity.
We all know that there are criminal elements/dangers outside of our doors, yet we go outside anyway. We keep our eyes open, but we don’t let the fear cripple us, or at least some of us.
===========================
jcon: This from the majority opinion of Justice Scalia in the Heller case. One might want to read this closely.
I think there may be another challenge to the 2nd Ammendment soon — don’t know how far it’ll get us, but we’ll see.
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
12:56 pm
“convince me doggone why you need a gun.”
I don’t have to. I am a law abiding citizen. It’s none of your business.
Christian Conservative
December 15th, 2012
12:56 pm
the cat:
He has been cast out of schools by people just like you. When we had prayer in schools and taught children the importance of living a moral life we didn’t have these kind of problems. Just as I stated earlier. This is the type of society the democrat party/aclu wants for America. Those of us who think its repulsive must live with it…
josef
December 15th, 2012
12:57 pm
FROG
“Charter schools may have more protection.”
Trouble maker…
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 15th, 2012
12:58 pm
I am trying to understand why anyone needs a gun unless you shoot your supper.
For the same reason people have golf clubs, bowling balls, curling stones etc.
barking frog
December 15th, 2012
12:58 pm
tundra dude
Boiling Frog wrote:
I have no problems with banning ALL guns. How about you?
“Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not.” ~ Thomas Jefferson
……………………..
plowing for the gun makers is not my thing…
Pizzaman
December 15th, 2012
12:58 pm
It can’t, and won’t, be said enough: There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for any one, other than the military, to possess combat weapons. Combat weapons are designed to kill people, not for hunting or self defence. Anyone thinking otherwise is wrong. Period. The Second Amendment doesn’t protect such crap. And no amount of posturing by the nra or any other pro gun folk will prove me wrong. It’s time for them to take responsibility. The nra and it’s policies are solely responsible for yesterday and all the “other” yesterday’s.
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
12:58 pm
“When we had prayer in schools and taught children the importance of living a moral life we didn’t have these kind of problems”
Just like that Amish school where the kids were attacked. Yep, having God in school SURE kept THEM from being attacked. Yes, sirree
Christian Conservative
December 15th, 2012
12:59 pm
So if I reading you lefties right. You don’t think the constitution gives us the right to own guns.
josef
December 15th, 2012
12:59 pm
DDR
“I think also it could be the fact that we, as humans, are “hard wired”, if you will to disassociate our selves from some things in order to maintain our sanity.”
I think you’re right.
Corey
December 15th, 2012
1:00 pm
@Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
12:38 pm
Don’t you know they are preparing for that imagined coming war with the government? If they could own an F-16, F-22, or an F-35, a B-1, an Abrams tank, a Howitzer or a Patriot missle what would stop them? Persons like them will push and push just to make that imagined war come to fruition. Think right wing evangelicals pushing for armegeddon to come to Israel/Palestine. No difference.
the cat
December 15th, 2012
1:00 pm
Oh please. when is the last time 20 kids were killed by a golf club, bowling ball.
doggone-you are a coward if you cannot defend why you think you need a gun.
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
1:00 pm
“There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for any one, other than the military, to possess combat weapons”
And handguns are not combat weapons.
td
December 15th, 2012
1:01 pm
the cat
December 15th, 2012
12:54 pm
I am trying to understand why anyone needs a gun unless you shoot your supper. Let’s have a true discussion. convince me doggone why you need a gun.
Because I do not want people like you coming to power and telling me that I have to tell you if I have a gun or not. It is a Constitutional right for me to keep and bear a fire arm and our founding fathers said the main reason is to stop tyranny by the government. You see when the elected knows that all their constituents are well armed then they are less likely to take away my rights to keep their power, money and control.
josef
December 15th, 2012
1:01 pm
DOGGONE
@ 12:58
Your mouth to G-d’s ears.
the cat
December 15th, 2012
1:01 pm
tell that to the parents of the kids slain yesterday that handguns are not combat weapons
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
1:02 pm
“doggone-you are a coward if you cannot defend why you think you need a gun”
Nope. I don’t have to defend anything to you. Not why I have dogs, not why I have cars, not why I have my ears pierced. It’s none of your business.
Christian Conservative
December 15th, 2012
1:02 pm
Doggone/GA:
Your missing the point… Its society as a whole… You fruits on the left will never understand…. Society is rotting from the core and its exactly what fruits like you want…. Look at the violence Hollywood promotes along with video games that simulate the very tragedy that happened yesterday. The democrat party has been bought and paid for by Satan… Unfortunately there’s still millions of sheep that don’t understand yet….
Brosephus™
December 15th, 2012
1:02 pm
Jay
Can you please ask the IT guys to give us an ignore button???? Geez….
Its laughable that a left wing loon would lecture us on gun control. The secular progressives are the most responsible for this. They are the one’s who want GOD out of schools and promote repulsive lifestyles as if its the norm. One you blogs quoted a question that asked why this kind of thing didn’t happen 20,30, or 40 years ago. Its because we had a moral society where human life and traditional values stood out…
Sounds like somebody else needs a history lesson today…
Feb. 14, 2008: A 27-year-old man goes on a rampage at Northern Illinois University in DeKalb, shooting 21 people, killing five and later himself. University police report that the suspect, a former student, had stopped taking medication and had been acting “somewhat erratic.”
Feb. 12, 2008: In Oxnard, Calif., a 14-year-old shoots a 15-year-old classmate, who later dies of his injuries. Law enforcement cites “bad blood” between the teens.
Feb. 11, 2008: In Memphis, a 19-year-old senior is shot in his school’s gym by a 17-year-old sophomore, following a feud that started off campus earlier in the week; after the shooting, the suspect hands his gun to a coach, saying, “It’s over now.”
Feb. 8, 2008: A nursing student shoots two women and then herself in a classroom at Louisiana Technical College, outside Baton Rouge.
Feb. 7, 2008: In Portsmouth, Ohio, a small community near the Kentucky border, a man shoots his estranged wife at the Notre Dame Elementary School.
Feb. 4, 2008: In Memphis’s Hamilton High School, a 16-year-old student is shot in the leg during an argument with another student over music.
[...]
March 21, 2005: A 16-year-old student shoots and kills five schoolmates, a teacher, and an unarmed guard at Red Lake High School on the Red Lake Indian Reservation in Minnesota before taking his own life.
[...]
May 21, 1998: Two teenagers are killed and more than 20 people hurt when a teenage boy opens fire at a high school in Springfield, Ore., after killing his parents.
May 19, 1998: Three days before his graduation, an 18-year-old honor student opens fire at a high school in Fayetteville, Tenn., killing a classmate who was dating his ex-girlfriend.
[...]
Aug. 15, 1996: A graduate student studying engineering at San Diego State University shoots and kills three professors while he defends his thesis.
Feb. 2, 1996: Two students and one teacher are killed and another is wounded when a 14-year-old student in Moses Lake, Wash., opens fire on his algebra class.
[...]
Nov. 26, 1985: A high school student in Washington State dies after shooting herself the previous day. Police say the female student earlier shot and killed two 14-year-old boys, one of them her former boyfriend.
[...]
Dec. 30, 1974: In Olean, N.Y., Anthony Barbaro, a 17-year-old Regents scholar armed with a rifle and shotgun, kills three adults and wounds 11 others at his high school, which was closed for the Christmas holiday. Barbaro was reportedly a loner who kept a diary describing several “battle plans” for his attack on the school.
[...]
Aug. 1, 1966: Charles Whitman climbs atop the observation deck at the University of Texas-Austin, killing 16 people and wounding 31 during a 96-minute rampage.
Notice that timeline includes 6 incidents within a 10 day period. Religion or lack thereof has nothing to do with this. It’s also not because of some recent breakdown in moral values, hence the incidents in the 60s and 70s. People, in this country, are allowed to practice their own belief system without fear of government repression. They are not allowed to oppress others with their beliefs.
RF
December 15th, 2012
1:02 pm
@td 12:50
Quit with the NRA talking points and think. Then try to answer my question.
Why does anyone NEED that kind of firepower in the home?
And don’t throw out the gun collectors. They can have them, but if they’re only collecting them, I doubt they keep them loaded in the nightstand. We can meet the intent of the law and the founding fathers without large clips and semi-automatic weapons. I’m not sure I think it’s okay for those to even be available to collectors.
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
1:02 pm
Thanks Josef
Christian Conservative
December 15th, 2012
1:03 pm
Why is the left not up in arms over cars? Or alcohol and drugs? They kill more people than guns…
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
1:03 pm
“Its society as a whole”
Have you stopped to consider that “society as a whole” includes YOU?
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 15th, 2012
1:03 pm
Oh please. when is the last time 20 kids were killed by a golf club, bowling ball.
Of course they haven’t, but my point is that I go to the range for the same reason another goes to the golf course, bowling alley, ice rink.
I am a law abiding citizen, and don’t have to justify my reasons to you.
the cat
December 15th, 2012
1:03 pm
td-it scares the crap out of me that a deranged sounding person like you have access to guns. you truly think the government is going to come knock on your door and do you in? you are delusional.
getalife
December 15th, 2012
1:04 pm
Nothing will pass congress so our President will have to act by himself as usual. I was cleaning my guns I bought after the collapse to give them away to family for Christmas. I bought plenty of ammo too but will keep that.
Brosephus™
December 15th, 2012
1:04 pm
Its funny how this kind of thing always happened in blue states……
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_University_of_Alabama_in_Huntsville_shooting
It’s funny when people expose their lack of knowledge or inability to use google.
Christian Conservative
December 15th, 2012
1:04 pm
RF:
For protection and hunting… Its an easy answer….
barking frog
December 15th, 2012
1:05 pm
Without the ’stand your ground law’, anyone attacked by an unarmed
assailant is required to retreat if possible so guns have very limited use
legally. Chunk them and get a ball bat.
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
1:05 pm
“Why does anyone NEED that kind of firepower in the home”
If they are law abiding citizens, it’s none of your business WHY they have them. They aren’t required to justify their enthusiasms to YOU.
Recon 0311 2533
December 15th, 2012
1:06 pm
The firearms used yesterday were not combat weapons they were murder weapons. The children and staff were unarmed victims of a deranged killer not by deranged weapons combat or otherwise.
RF
December 15th, 2012
1:07 pm
Christian conservative (once again acting like anything BUT a christian): who’s out there buying the video games and attending the violent movies? Just as many of your political persuasion I’ll wager. That makes them as much “fruits” as anyone else.
Got anything intelligent to add or is this the level of discussion from you today?
Christian Conservative
December 15th, 2012
1:07 pm
Doggone/GA:
Absolutly! But as I stated I have no choice but to live by the rules of the left. They control 2/3’s of gubmint and have been slowly chipping away at a normal society….. I live as a law abiding citizen and raise my children to have morals and respect…..
josef
December 15th, 2012
1:07 pm
This is not a left-right, red state-blue state issue at its core.
Brosephus™
December 15th, 2012
1:08 pm
Doggone @ 12:58
I couldn’t have stated it any better.
the cat
December 15th, 2012
1:08 pm
no one here has provided a reason other than the chest pounding it is my right!
if you want to go to a shooting range get an airsoft gun. you don’t need a semi-automatic.
P Michael Campaigns
December 15th, 2012
1:09 pm
guns do not kill but bullets sure can sign WH petition to make ammo safe and secure and pls rt http://wh.gov/Rvaq
Christian Conservative
December 15th, 2012
1:09 pm
RF:
Its certainly not a true Christian! Evil lurks around every corner….. Trying to lure the weak… Just look at the democrat party and the way they booed GOD….
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
1:09 pm
“But as I stated I have no choice but to live by the rules of the left”
I am a “lefty”, you may not realize that.
josef
December 15th, 2012
1:09 pm
Speaking of the President, he impressed me with his address to our nation.
td
December 15th, 2012
1:09 pm
RF
December 15th, 2012
1:02 pm
@td 12:50
Quit with the NRA talking points and think. Then try to answer my question.
Why does anyone NEED that kind of firepower in the home?
To stop the government from thinking they can create laws to take my other Constitutionally protected rights away from me. This is the same reasoning that our founders raised the keeping guns to a Constitutionally protected level. Without the fear of reprisal from the governed the politicians will take our liberties.
getalife
December 15th, 2012
1:10 pm
I would not be surprised if elementary schools hire one armed security official after this one.The number one job of government is to try to keep people safe so they have to act.
the cat
December 15th, 2012
1:10 pm
on another note-got a call from Ricky Santorium this morning.
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
1:10 pm
Thanks Bro
Ron
December 15th, 2012
1:11 pm
Indigo, why do you not include all of the countries of the world rather than just a few that meet your standards? If you were to take out the murders that are committed in Chicago, Detroit, New York and Los Angeles, our tate would be comparable to the aggregate of those countries (all socialist) you mentioned. If our punishments were as severe as those countries, our numbers would also fall dramatically.
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
1:11 pm
“you don’t need a semi-automatic.”
It’s not YOUR decision what law abiding citizens do or don’t “need”
RF
December 15th, 2012
1:12 pm
@ Doggone and CC: again, there is valid reason to debate the availability of large clips and semi-automatic weapons in the general populace. And Doggone it IS my problem when I don’t feel safe in a movie theater or even in my classroom becuase of so many nuts having them. I don’t argue anyone’s right to self defense or hunting or any other gun related sport. But nothing anyone can say to defend owning those guns is going to convince me that they have the unmitigated right to it. You can own guns for self-defense without needing a 15 round clip in a semi-auto gun. That doesn’t make you any safer or any better at hunting. I don’t care about the collectors- I care about how many nutjobs either can buy them or take them from mommy’s gun cabinet and use them to kill. There is no justification for that, and simply saying “it’s none of our business” isn’t cutting it anymore.
td
December 15th, 2012
1:13 pm
the cat
December 15th, 2012
1:03 pm
td-it scares the crap out of me that a deranged sounding person like you have access to guns. you truly think the government is going to come knock on your door and do you in? you are delusional.
No, I do not think the government is going to come to my door to do me in because they know me and 100 million more liberty loving Americans would not put up with them doing it.
Christian Conservative
December 15th, 2012
1:13 pm
I wonder how many listened to this tripe by far left hero and Obama supporter Harry Belafonte… This type of talk is driving people to arm themselves…
http://nation.foxnews.com/harry-belafonte/2012/12/13/harry-belafonte-obama-arrest-entitlement-reformers
barking frog
December 15th, 2012
1:14 pm
Not going to get rid of guns.
Not going to psychoanalyze.
Not going to protect the children.
Not going to get the truth from media
Not going to get complete protection from God.
The Devil is winning but at least he is conservative.
…..except when it comes to shoes.
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
1:14 pm
“If our punishments were as severe as those countries, our numbers would also fall dramatically”
Don’t be so sure of that. Our mindset is different. As I related yesterday, I once told a European friend that they sent their misfits, criminals and anti-establishment types HERE, to get rid of them. Then WHY would they expect this country to be conformist?
Brosephus™
December 15th, 2012
1:14 pm
td: To stop the government from thinking they can create laws to take my other Constitutionally protected rights away from me.
You do realize that the government possesses enough hardware on it’s on to basically render your personal stash to dust with the push of one button, right? I seriously doubt the government, which is made up of Americans who have the same rights as you, are seriously worried about the number of weapons you have at home.
getalife
December 15th, 2012
1:14 pm
What did rick have to say the cat?
Coming to take your guns?
Inject God into the argument?
the cat
December 15th, 2012
1:14 pm
RF-total agreement.
Intellectual Ninja
December 15th, 2012
1:14 pm
Indigo…
… your logic is deeply flawed and ignores the much larger problem.
In Switzerland and other CIVILIZED countries where gun ownership per capita is roughly the same as the United States, they don’t have these issues.
So explain THAT using your “feelings” about guns, as opposed to logic.
The truth is, there is something deeply wrong with American culture.
These things did not happen 30, 40, 50 years ago, back when gun laws were far less strict. So WHY are they happening NOW?
THAT is the question, Indigo… not your knee-jerk reaction to take away all guns. Which we know only leaves guns in the hands of the criminals.
Let me use another analogy for you: How’s that War on Drugs going? The law abiding citizens don’t use ‘em, but for the people who want illicit drugs, they can ALWAYS find that for which they are looking.
You ban guns and you do not end any of these problems as you see them, you only deprive the law-abiding citizens of this country of THEIR rights, simply because you don’t agree with it… kind of like how so many deprive others of marriage… the principle is the same, and it’s all wrong.
Instead of approaching the problem with feeling, approach it with logic, and ask the right questions.
WHY in this country is a film rated R if people in the film say f–k too much or get naked or show people simulating sex, yet a film can be GRAPHICALLY violent and get a PG13 rating?
WHY do we celebrate rap artists who glorify violence, murder, the culture of crime drug-use, and violence against women?
WHY do we allow our children to play Call of Duty or Dead Space or Resident Evil and pretend like we’re not doing them and their still-forming brains irreparable harm?
WHY have we as a society lost the stigma of divorce and fathers running out on their families? People used to be ashamed of getting divorced. Fathers used to be thought of as dead-beats if they abandoned their children… but no more.
WHY are we so afraid to stand up to the people who equivocate about good and evil, who keep telling us the world is nothing but grey, that looking at it in black and white is stupid and simplistic. There IS evil. There IS good. It’s time we tell those people to shut the hell up, crawl back into the philosophical holes they crawled out of, and leave us alone.
WHY are we so afraid to JUDGE? If we see something that’s messed-up, why do we shut our mouths? If the world is a village, why aren’t we hip-checking our fellow villagers?
We’ve become so afraid of being seen as judgmental on issues where we shouldn’t judge (like gay marriage, for example) that we’ve let it creep over into the areas where we SHOULD judge.
You think, Indigo, banning guns fixes all of these problems?
That’s just 1st grade thinking. Time to be an adult. Time to ask the right questions.
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
1:15 pm
“But nothing anyone can say to defend owning those guns is going to convince me that they have the unmitigated right to it.”
False argument, since no one has said “they” have an “unmitigated right to it” And it’s not the fault of LAW ABIDING CITIZENS that YOU don’t feel safe.
DebbieDoRight - A Do Right Woman
December 15th, 2012
1:16 pm
C.Conservative: Its because we had a moral society where human life and traditional values stood out…
So, in your fantasy world these events never happened huh:
The Valentine’s Day Massacre
Albert Fish
Maria and Delfina Gonzales
Belle Geddess
Marie Hilley
Lizzie Borden
Elizabeth Short
And on and on…….
What do all these cases/people have in common? All of their crimes (by or against them), happened BEFORE prayer was taken outta schools….
Duh!
Looneytoonsindville
December 15th, 2012
1:16 pm
If guns are banned, only criminals will have guns. This is the truth. Adam Lanza couldn’t obtain a gun legally (laws prevented it) so he had to steal them. Now the megalomaniacal Obama followers want to usurp our constitutional rights based on a crisis (Saul Alinsky’s rules for radicals at work) that had little to do with guns and much to do with criminal behavior by an individual.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 15th, 2012
1:16 pm
if you want to go to a shooting range get an airsoft gun. you don’t need a semi-automatic.
I am a law abiding citizen and you don’t have the authority to define what it is that I “don’t need.”
RF
December 15th, 2012
1:16 pm
“To stop the government from thinking they can create laws to take my other Constitutionally protected rights away from me.”
OH my, the stupid factor just went up again. One….more….time, td: GET OFF THE NRA WEBSITE AND THINK. You don’t seriously think you need a semi-auto weapon with large clip capacity to protect yourself from the big, bad guvment, do you?
And you still haven’t answered my question and you won’t be able to, because there’s simply NO reason anyone NEEDS that kind of firepower in the home, period.
the cat
December 15th, 2012
1:17 pm
Ricky had a a live person telling me all about him. when i asked her who she was talking about she stuttered through explaining he had run for president, had lost and was now calling to tell me that dumb black guy in the white house was taking all our rights away and had to be stopped. i could help stop him by sending a worthy donation. they hung up when i started laughing.
Christian Conservative
December 15th, 2012
1:19 pm
Looneytoonsindville:
They will never admit it but you are so correct. Obama and his minions want this country radically changed so that they will have more control. The sad thing is that most dems simply vote dem for freebies….. I don’t think most hold the same values they just want free stuff.. Its sad… Like making a deal with the devil…. But unfortunately we all must pay….
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
1:19 pm
“because there’s simply NO reason anyone NEEDS that kind of firepower in the home, period”
And there’s no NEED for law abiding citizens to justify their enthusiasms to YOU
td
December 15th, 2012
1:19 pm
RF
December 15th, 2012
1:12 pm
“. I don’t argue anyone’s right to self defense or hunting or any other gun related sport.”
You are missing the whole point of the intent of the 2nd Amendment. It is not for people to be able to hunt or sport but it is a deterrent and a protection placed into the Constitution to protect all of our other rights. Until you accept this as a fact then you will not understand the importance of guns.
Brosephus™
December 15th, 2012
1:20 pm
I see the ODS brigade is showing up in force now… Let me go ahead and get my flight simulator started up so that I can get clearance to depart and avoid walking through fecal matter…
the cat
December 15th, 2012
1:20 pm
doggone and kamchak-why so defensive? we just are asking for one itty bitty reason why you need a big ole gun.
getalife
December 15th, 2012
1:20 pm
” I live as a law abiding citizen and raise my children to have morals and respect”
You cons broke your moral compass and show no respect to our President.
Like VP Biden said, show us or zip it.
Doggone/GA
December 15th, 2012
1:21 pm
“we just are asking for one itty bitty reason why you need a big ole gun.”
And you’re getting one itty bitty answer: it’s none of your business
Christian Conservative
December 15th, 2012
1:21 pm
DebbieDoRight – A Do Right Woman:
Comparing this to yesterdays tragedy… Apples and oranges sweetie.. But take Elizabeth Smart for instance. She has become a wonderful Christian woman and a role model for women… You lefty’s simple don’t see the big picture…..
Recon 0311 2533
December 15th, 2012
1:21 pm
I don’t feel safe in a movie theater or even in my classroom becuase of so many nuts having them.
Actually comparatively few nuts have them. In fact less than 1% are “nuts”. The remaining 99+% are healthy minded law abiding citizens who harm no one. You’re much safer in your classroom or your favorite movie theater than you are driving to get to them.
Tundra Dude
December 15th, 2012
1:22 pm
“When we had prayer in schools and taught children the importance of living a moral life we didn’t have these kind of problems”
Strange, in the former E. Germany, about half the citizens describe themselves as atheists……
These mass shootings were /are extremely rare in my country (of birth).
Had one in ‘02, an expelled student killed 12 teachers.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 15th, 2012
1:23 pm
doggone and kamchak-why so defensive? we just are asking for one itty bitty reason why you need a big ole gun.
Why so defensive?
We’ve been asking you — why do we have to justify our enthusiasms to you?
Ron
December 15th, 2012
1:24 pm
RF, as a teacher, do you not believe you could have stopped this killing if you had been armed?
Jack ®
December 15th, 2012
1:24 pm
What needs to be outlawed is the garbage produced by the entertainment industry. Everyone knows children are impressionable and most of the deadly mischief comes from copycat individuals who take their cues from the media where violence and sex is a common comodity.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 15th, 2012
1:25 pm
While I do not agree totally with everything in this thread from Jay, for once he has articulated some “reasonableness” on the subject:
Here are my thoughts:
1) Regardless of whether a child is murdered in this fashion or killed by a drunk driver out on bond from his 10th DUI arrest, the impact on the parents and others is incomprehensible to me. My heart and prayers go out to them. If I had the power I would make every gun AND every evil person on this earth inert. Mutual exclusivity would mean problem solved !
2) The training that Jay mentions (while good for law abiding citizens) would do NOTHING to prevent the type of incident that just happened. In fact, it could make it worse in that the person intent on committing such acts would have been through this training making his actions even more horribly efficient.
3) The number of firearms laws/regulations on the books is already overwhelming. Jay makes good points in that regard. Unfortunately, there comes a time when all has been done legally and we must look to other areas ………… in my opinion that includes a much higher rate of forced medical incarceration for those who are prone to violent acts. In addition, it includes a change in our culture which is a generational thing.
An example …………. I believe the stats show that 50,000+ are killed each year on our highways with approximately 50% of that involving drunk drivers.
a) Do we need to pass more laws re: speeding/DUI or simply enforce the ones we have?
b) How many thousands and thousands of lives lost (let alone serious injuries) could be curtailed every year if each new car in the U.S. had a computer chip that allowed a maximum speed of 55 mph (except emergency vehicles) ?
I submit that the American people at some point have said we have done all we can do.
4) As I have often said, we hold the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments to the Constitution so sacred that we allow our courts over mere technicalities to often release vicious people back into the community to rape and murder again.
I do not believe the Bill of Rights is part of a “sliding scale”. The 2nd Amendment is no less sacred than the others and the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled to that effect.