Newtown massacre reawakens question of gun control
The United States suffers more gun deaths and mass shootings than any other major industrialized country. It’s not even close. And of the dozen most deadly mass killings in U.S. history, half have occurred within the past five years. In other words, if you believe that these things are happening more and more often, the numbers validate that belief.
The question is why.
The NRA and its supporters say the problem is not easy access to guns. To the contrary, they often argue that the problem is a shortage of guns. If only we had more guns in circulation, fewer would die. The day before the tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary School, the Michigan Legislature embraced that theory in passing a law allowing those with concealed carry permits to possess weapons in schools, churches and other formerly gun-free areas. Michigan’s governor has yet to say whether he intends to sign such a bill.
However, there is no evidence to support the NRA’s contention. Those countries with much lower death rates do not achieve those rates by allowing free and easy access to guns by almost everybody, regardless of training. Quite the contrary. Those few countries in which guns are even more ubiquitous than the United States — countries such as Iraq — have much higher death rates.
In addition, gun laws are more lax here in the South and guns themselves are more numerous. Under the NRA theory, that ought to produce a more civil, less violent society. The data say otherwise:
On the other hand, those who turn reflexively to gun control as an answer must acknowledge the inadequacies of that approach as well. Yesterday’s school shooting took place in Connecticut, a state with strong gun-control laws. The pistols that were used — a Sig Sauer and a Glock of undetermined model — had been legally obtained and were registered to Nancy Lanza, the late mother of the 20-year-old shooter. It has been widely reported that a Bushmaster .223 assault weapon — a version of the AR-15 — was found in the trunk of the vehicle driven by Adam Lanza to the school. However, Lt. Paul Vance of the Connecticut state patrol said at a press conference this morning that all recovered weapons were found in close proximity to Lanza’s body.
The high kill rate in the shootings — only one person was wounded and survived — suggests Lanza was experienced with firearms. But based on what we know now, it is hard to explain in concrete, direct fashion how any reasonable set of changes to our gun laws would have prevented Friday’s tragedy.
For example, I have not been able to find any more specific information about the types of pistols used in the attack, or whether those pistols or the Bushmaster were equipped with high-capacity magazines. As a practical matter, outlawing pistols would not be feasible given how many are already in circulation. It would also be impossible politically. Outlawing high-capacity magazines might be another matter, but again, as of yet we have no indication they played a role in this attack.
Guns are inanimate objects. Guns don’t kill people; people kill people. I accept all of that as fact. However, I would have no problem whatsoever with again outlawing military-style assault weapons. Neither would the U.S. Supreme Court, even based on its most recent pro-gun rulings.
As gun supporters point out, and accurately so, other semi-automatic weapons are capable of delivering the same high fire rate as those described as assault weapons. It is striking, however, that these “other” weapons do not typically show up in the hands of mass murderers such as Adam Lanza. The military-style design of assault weapons may be superficial, but it gives them a powerful mystique to weak-minded souls pursuing visions of vengeance and power.
Speaking in general, rather than in reaction to the Newtown strategy, it is reasonable to propose that the legal ability to purchase and possess deadly firearms be linked to training and testing on the responsible use of such weapons. That would be a regulation of people, not of guns. Such proposals would nonetheless be fought bitterly by the NRA because they would reduce gun sales, and the NRA is in many ways nothing more than a front for its gun-industry sponsors.
Such laws would in no way infringe on constitutional rights as outlined in the Second Amendment and Supreme Court opinions. The millions of law-abiding, responsible gun owners in this country would have nothing to fear from such a system. In fact, as the NRA often points out correctly, those gun owners who have gone through the steps required to obtain a concealed carry permit rarely use those guns in crime. That record suggests a possible path forward for those who recognize both the constitutional right to possess firearms and the necessity of mitigating the damage done when those guns fall into the wrong hands.
– Jay Bookman
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1,704 comments Add your comment
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
2:49 pm
“I must have missed Jay appointing you as the official monitor here”
What’s the matter? Is your scroll wheel broken? Is someone sitting there with a gun to your head, forcing you to read everything posted here?
TaxPayer
December 16th, 2012
2:49 pm
Cut out ALL of the waste, fraud and abuse in government spending and there will be PLENTY of room for security expenditures.
No, scout. The money for that security has to come from the local level and the locals have already been cut to the bone. So your property taxes have to go up significantly to cover your unwillingness to have gun owners bear the responsibility of gun ownership.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
2:51 pm
Welcome to the Occupation :
1) The Constitution protects us from people like you.
2) You are free to leave (or stay).
indigo
December 16th, 2012
2:52 pm
Scout – 1:34
Of course you know that “armed populance” is fighting with weapons other than and far more lethal than AK-47’s.
I was thinking. The 2nd Ammendment says “the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”. Following this “right” to it’s logical conclusion, we should be able to own RPG’s, shoulder mounted missles, tanks, artillery, etc. etc. After all, it’s what the Constitution says.
Right?
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
2:52 pm
“Does that play into such things as we are discussing today?”
There’s another side to your theory, Josef. And that is the devaluing of the word “love” I *love* my car. I *love* my new comb. I *love* listening to music. We devalue something that should be intensely personal, and elevate the value of bad things in our ordinary language.
TaxPayer
December 16th, 2012
2:55 pm
Scout loves his 47 guns.
getalife
December 16th, 2012
2:55 pm
“On Sunday Feinstein laid out details of the bill.
“It will ban the sale, the transfer, the importation and the possession, not retroactively, but prospectively,” and ban the sale of clips of more than ten bullets, Feinstein said. “The purpose of this bill is to get… weapons of war off the streets.”
Feinstein would not comment on whether President Obama had failed to lead on gun control. “He is going to have a bill to lead on,” she said.” HP
hamiltonAZ
December 16th, 2012
2:55 pm
Unless we want to live in a military state, “beef up security” is not the solution here. The solution revolves around mental health awareness and a state willing to acknowledge its role; changes to the way we permit gun ownership including, perhaps, laws concerning how they are stored; and a societal commitment to civility that seems to have disappeared starting at the leadership levels. People who are vitriolic in the public square are lawfully there, but if we shunned them socially, their behavior might improve.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
2:57 pm
“Following this “right” to it’s logical conclusion, we should be able to own RPG’s, shoulder mounted missles, tanks, artillery, etc. etc. After all, it’s what the Constitution says”
“Infringed” doesn’t mean what you think it means.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
2:58 pm
“People who are vitriolic in the public square are lawfully there, but if we shunned them socially, their behavior might improve.”
It would seem that shunning them is exactly the WRONG way to treat them. One of the traits such people present is a feeling of isolation.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 16th, 2012
2:59 pm
I have to say I disagree with the statement that God or lack of god has nothing to do with this tragedy. As I’ve said, we are witnessing the dawn – a very gradual dawn, as this has been underway for a long time – of the Nietzschean man, of the modern human being shorn of traditional structures of meaning and identity formation. Such a human being has few if any of the traditional consolations offered by things like religion, which was more a fabric of life than a source of consolation for an unhappy life per se.
Liberals really HATE this argument, of course, preferring to think of human beings as grounded in some universal essence. But liberals are way too optimistic, of course.
But just as wrong are conservatives like Huckabee who say that if we only had god in schools, we wouldn’t be seeing the entropy of human morals and human decency that we’re seeing. Anyway who’s read Nietzsche knows what a pathetic joke of a hope that is. And the reason is simple: nihilism is a condition that comes over humanity like a cold chill, making everything clammy and deathlike that it touches – which is everything.
We can’t go back. Conservatism and gun rights is a dead end.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
3:00 pm
“Liberals really HATE this argument, of course, preferring to think of human beings as grounded in some universal essence. But liberals are way too optimistic, of course”
You don’t have permssion to speak for liberals.
Mike Fitzgerald
December 16th, 2012
3:02 pm
Mr. Bookman,
I agree with most of your analysis of the direction gun regulation should take. However, this morning’s Meet The Press interview with Mayor Bloomberg highlighted the policy tools advocated by Mayors Against Illegal Guns – namely strict penalties for those caught with illegal guns, limits on the number of guns an individual can purchase, gun offender registries and proactive policing practices to find illegal guns and imprisonment of those in possession of illegal guns. I believe zealous implementation of these strategies could greatly reduce the number of handguns and assault rifles in circulation over time. If the Congress cannot enact the types of regulations, I intend to work towards their implementation in the City of Atlanta.
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
3:02 pm
Doggone/GA 2:47
armed guard, burglar bars, bulletproof glass, armed principal
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
3:05 pm
“armed guard, burglar bars, bulletproof glass, armed principal”
those are not proof it could have been prevented. And at least 2 of those could have made it difficult for first responders to get in as well.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 16th, 2012
3:10 pm
Doggone: “You don’t have permssion to speak for liberals.”
I think I understand liberals better than they understand themselves.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
3:12 pm
“I think I understand liberals better than they understand themselves”
And being a liberal, I know you are wrong.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
3:14 pm
TaxPayer:
“Scout loves his 47 guns”
I have a revolver, three pistols and a shotgun.
Mike Fitzgerald
December 16th, 2012
3:17 pm
Here’s a link to an online petition for new gun regulations:
http://www.demandaplan.org/newtown
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
3:18 pm
Just took a quick glance across the internet news.
Both sides (conservative and liberal) continue to “feed frenzy” on this tragedy.
The perpetrator’s photo is plastered everywhere.
Do they not realize they are facilitating a possible “copycat” syndrome ?
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
3:18 pm
Doggone/GA
First responders are perfectly capable of dealing with difficult
entry to buildings.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
3:19 pm
Mike Fitzgerald:
Here’s a link to the U.S. Constitution:
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
josef
December 16th, 2012
3:20 pm
DOGGONE
Yes, that one, too. And right on the heels of it, we see the word “hate” being thrown in. Don’t you just hate it when…
Real Scootter
December 16th, 2012
3:20 pm
Do they not realize they are facilitating a possible “copycat” syndrome ?
They don’t care Scout!
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
3:22 pm
“First responders are perfectly capable of dealing with difficult entry to buildings”
But it slows them down. The slower the response, the great the time for a mass killer to kill his victims. And I doubt that FIRST responders have the knowledge or tools you think they have. It’s generally second responders who have that greater level of knowledge and tools. That’s why we hve SWAT teams, but SWAT teams are not normally FIRST responders.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
3:22 pm
Real Scootter :
Exactly ……. it’s all about “ratings” and interviewing the mother of the 2nd cousin of the maintenance worker who used to work there.
Brosephus™
December 16th, 2012
3:23 pm
getalife @ 2:30
Having moments of clarity today, huh???
————————-
“Holding school boards responsible for school security should be done”
Holding legislators responsible for paying for that security would help too.
AMEN!!!!!!
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
3:24 pm
“The slower the response, the great the time for a mass killer to kill his victims.”
Which is why:
1) Police Departments are increasingly changing their policy to tell the first officer(s) on the scene to go in and do their best to stop the carnage instead of waiting for backup or SWAT !
2) Teachers, staff and maintenance workers should have the right to defend themselves and the children.
They BOTH suck
December 16th, 2012
3:25 pm
Scout and scooter
Unfortunately if “it bleeds, it leads”
That is the media regardless of how when views any given media outlet from a political perspective..
Been that way for a long time.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
3:25 pm
New football uniforms or security ?
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
3:25 pm
“And right on the heels of it, we see the word “hate” being thrown in”
Yep. And yet, at the same time, we are becoming a more and more tolerant society to things that we previously hated. YOU know that better than I do, in fact. So it might not be the effect on the general populaton that is the problem. It might be that it’s the effect on those who are already in some way imbalanced that matters.
Real Scootter
December 16th, 2012
3:26 pm
0311,
And they will keep doing it for as long as they can stretch it out too.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
3:27 pm
They BOTH suck:
“Unfortunately if “it bleeds, it leads” …. ‘
Which is just another symptom of why the CULTURE (not the gun) has changed.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
3:27 pm
“Do they not realize they are facilitating a possible “copycat” syndrome ?”
Do they realize that they are putting the rest of society on alert that this might happen again?
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
3:27 pm
Doggone/GA
What are you calling a first responder? A shooter enters a building by
a method that the police cannot use?
They BOTH suck
December 16th, 2012
3:29 pm
seems 24 hour news and internet have only enhanced the “if bleeds, it leads” mantra..
That is the double edged sword of getting more info/entertainment than one could get 30 or more years ago
Real Scootter
December 16th, 2012
3:30 pm
They BOTH suck
December 16th, 2012
3:25 pm
Agreed TBS! It reminds of that song “dirty laundry”.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
3:30 pm
“Which is just another symptom of why the CULTURE (not the gun) has changed.”
Baloney. When has it EVER been true that news wasn’t about “bleeding”?
josef
December 16th, 2012
3:32 pm
DOGGONE
“It might be that it’s the effect on those who are already in some way imbalanced that matters.”
I would agree with that. That is why I say that we can argue all the other things around this til the cows come home, but until we address the issue of the “unbalanced,” we’re going nowhere.
They BOTH suck
December 16th, 2012
3:33 pm
Scout
It isn’t new.. It is just enhanced with so many more outlets trying to get and push the story for ratings…
Sensationalism isn’t new to the media
Real Scootter
December 16th, 2012
3:33 pm
Do they realize that they are putting the rest of society on alert that this might happen again?
Who in our society wouldn’t already know this Doggone? (no snark)
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
3:34 pm
Baloney. When has it EVER been true that news wasn’t about “bleeding”?
…………………………………
try the Society pages
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
3:35 pm
“What are you calling a first responder? A shooter enters a building by a method that the police cannot use?”
If a school has burgler bars and bullet proof glass, as was suggested, and a gunmen gets in by one door. All he’s got to do is hole up in a room, that per the burgler bars and bulletproof glass only has ONE easy entrance and shoot anyone who shows up at that easiest entrance.
In the meantime, the burgler bars and bulletproof glass are SLOWING down thn entrance of the first Cops on the seen – the FIRST RESPONDERS. If they can’t get in, and HAVE to wait for second responders…every minute they wait could mean another dead victim.
That’s why I’ve been saying: beware of UNINTENDED consequences.
Brosephus™
December 16th, 2012
3:35 pm
Which is why:
1) Police Departments are increasingly changing their policy to tell the first officer(s) on the scene to go in and do their best to stop the carnage instead of waiting for backup or SWAT !
2) Teachers, staff and maintenance workers should have the right to defend themselves and the children.
To Doggone’s point
1) The first responding officer would likely be a regular patrol officer and may lack the necessary equipment to get through security systems such as what frog was debating about. In order to ensure that the officer has the things necessary, you have to begin to look at the cost of supplying all kinds of extra equipment to officers and the reprecussions of squad cars hauling all that extra equipment around on a regular basis. Costs will skyrocket between purchase and maintenance of that equipment and the upkeep of the squad cars from carrying that extra weight.
2) School staff should have the right to defend themselves. Who’s going to do the training and be responsible for certifying them? Who’s going to pay for the training? Will it be a requirement for hiring? Will there be an increase in pay for those who are trained to be first responders? If you’re going to pay more for staff who are trained as such, how much do you increase their salary? If you don’t increase their salary, how are you going to get a janitor to willfully put his ass on the line when he can just as easily grab kids and get them all to safety for the same pay?
*Disclaimer: I’m not being combative or bitchy. When things like this are addressed, there are many significant questions that will arise. Failure to look at the long term implications can possibly lead to worse situations than simply doing what’s already being done.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
3:37 pm
“seems 24 hour news and internet have only enhanced the “if bleeds, it leads” mantra..”
I don’t neccessarily disagree, but I would attribute it more to the “entertainmenting” of news than to just the normal “bleeds” mantra that has always been a part of the news.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
3:37 pm
“Who in our society wouldn’t already know this Doggone? (no snark)”
If it wasn’t reported, would you know about it if you weren’t in that town?
They BOTH suck
December 16th, 2012
3:38 pm
Scout
The government (politicians) as well as tycoons & business have pushed and manipulated stories for a long time.. We could probably throw in other folks and orgs doing it as well.
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
3:40 pm
Doggone/GA
I see your point. The shooter might also be kept shooting at the
police entering the shooter entry door and be unable to shoot the
kids. A 223 bushmaster can shoot down any steel door but the
ar15 the police have cannot. o.k.
They BOTH suck
December 16th, 2012
3:42 pm
Doggone
Good point regarding my post
getalife
December 16th, 2012
3:42 pm
It is causing more nuts to go off and it caused some real discussion on this issue.
One of the best debates on this issue I have seen.
Our society is drawing the red line on guns killing children.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
3:44 pm
“I see your point. The shooter might also be kept shooting at the police entering the shooter entry door and be unable to shoot the kids.”
Well, yes…except, how many cops are going to be stupid enough to storm that one door…knowing they will certainly die? And when the door isn’t being attacked, the killer can kill his victims. To say nothing of using the furniture in the room to block that door and make IT more difficult to enter also.
That’s more or less my point. Yes, burgler bars and bulletproof glass make it harder to get in. But once an intruder IS in, they turn the school into a fortress that protects him from others trying to get in and stop him.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
3:45 pm
Thanks Both
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
3:45 pm
brosephus, doggone/ga
should we take away the buzz in door to allow emt’s quicker entrance
or police in hostage situations? unlock all windows and doors so kids
can escape a fire?
Real Scootter
December 16th, 2012
3:47 pm
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
3:37 pm
I’m talking about the part where you said they are letting everyone know it could happen again Doggone.As a matter of fact I think everyone knows it WILL happen again.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
3:48 pm
“should we take away the buzz in door to allow emt’s quicker entrance or police in hostage situations? unlock all windows and doors so kids can escape a fire?”
That’s the dilemma. How do we balance security and safety from other dangers?
Welcome to the Occupation
December 16th, 2012
3:48 pm
Do they not realize they are facilitating a possible “copycat” syndrome ?
When news is a product, a commodity – and under global capitalism, it’s nothing but that – there’s no preventing it from being what you see: part of an obscene “feeding frenzy”. It’s incapable of stopping this dynamic.
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
3:50 pm
Well, yes…except, how many cops are going to be stupid enough to storm that one door…knowing they will certainly die? And when the door isn’t being attacked, the killer can kill his victims. To say nothing of using the furniture in the room to block that door and make IT more difficult to enter also.
……………………………………………………………………………………………..
in this instance none of that happened. the stupid police rushed in the building
and the shooter killed himself. had he not gotten in the discussion would be moot.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
3:50 pm
“I’m talking about the part where you said they are letting everyone know it could happen again Doggone.As a matter of fact I think everyone knows it WILL happen again.”
You’re not taking into account comlainsancy. People, like it or not, tend to get complaicent about dangers when they haven’t happened for a long time. Reporting on atrocities does, yes, open the possibility of a copycat…but it als shakes the general population out of their complaicency.
Brosephus™
December 16th, 2012
3:51 pm
frog
If I knew the answer to those questions, I would already be at work installing the best security system in as many schools as I could.
I don’t think there’s a one size fits all solution. I think each and every school will have to look at what works best for them. It could be something as simple as having a one way exit door to each classroom with no way of opening it from the outside or something. One could also consider installing safe rooms between two classrooms so that students could hide inside and keep themselves safe until the police gets there and clears the situation.
I understand your point about the bars, glass, and stuff. When looking at those options, you have to consider both the benefits and shortcomings of using them. I think that’s what Doggone has been saying all along.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
3:52 pm
“and the shooter killed himself. had he not gotten in the discussion would be moot.”
so you’re going to go forward on the assumption that ANY and ALL such attackers will do the same thing? Not smart. If that was what happened we wouldn’t have any need for the trained negotiators or second responderss we have. All we’d have to do is storm them every time.
The Truth
December 16th, 2012
3:54 pm
To all of you crying afoul about the automatic weapons ban being shot down by the Repubs – deal with it! Not a single one of these school shootings has been carried out by an individual using automatic weapons! All of your arguments against gun ownership are based on emotion and not on facts. The reason? Because there are no unbiased facts to support your terrible arguments! If you don’t like living in a country that allows gun ownership, move somewhere else!!!
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
3:54 pm
brosephus
while we ponder the shortcomings 20 kids are dead. keep the
shooter outside the building and they would be alive.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
3:56 pm
“I think that’s what Doggone has been saying all along.”
It is, indeed. And I like the idea of safe rooms. And those could be greatly fortified and be safe rooms for things like tornadoes and earthquakes, in area where that would be appropriate. I’ll never forget staying in a campground once that had bath houses where the toilet and shower stalls were lif mini fortresses. Seemed odd to make them so strong, until I saw the sign that the bath house was also a tornado shelter. Then it made sense!
getalife
December 16th, 2012
3:56 pm
frog,
Yes, look at the anguish in her face when told her sister was shot and killed:
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/904938/thumbs/s-SANDY-HOOK-large300.jpg?6
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
3:57 pm
doggone/ga
my way is secure the schools. next nut may be nuclear but he would
be outside.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
3:58 pm
“keep the shooter outside the building and they would be alive.”
And that is emotional thinking not practical. No matter how much you’d like to, we can’t turn our schools into fortresses.
Real Scootter
December 16th, 2012
4:00 pm
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
3:50 pm
Well,you do have a point there.But,I still think the bottom line is “ratings”. Kinda like “profits” is the bottom line for Business.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
4:01 pm
“my way is secure the schools. next nut may be nuclear but he would be outside”
Now stop and think about the cost of turning ALL of our schools into what amounts to fortressed prisons. Stop thinking emotionally, and think practically. It’s not going to happen. Heck, even prisons can, and have, been broken into or out of. And if they can be broken out of, they can be broken into.
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
4:02 pm
we can’t turn our schools into fortresses.
………………………………………..
we can no longer allow them to be undertaker warehouses..
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
4:06 pm
“But,I still think the bottom line is “ratings”. ”
OF COURSE it is! That’s why news has been turned into entertainment, instead of straight-forward reporting. And do you know what even is attributed to bringing in that mindset? The assassination of Kennedy. Networks realized during that event that the new could provide the product they sell to their advertisers: an AUDIENCE.
Until that event, news was something they had to do to comply with the “public service” requirements for getting a broadcast license. It was a throw away they didn’t expect to make money. The Kennedy assassination showed them that news COULD be a moneymaker.
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
4:08 pm
Doggone/GA
In the name of unintended consequencies do you want schools to
remain vulnerable to a minor with a stolen rifle? both columbine
and newton fit this description and you say there is no way to stop
this. i think not.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
4:09 pm
“we can no longer allow them to be undertaker warehouses”
And does that also apply to our movie theatoers and our business buildings? Where does it stop? Emotional thinking says we can stop such things from happening. And reality rises up EVERY TIME to show we CAN’T.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
4:10 pm
“In the name of unintended consequencies do you want schools to remain vulnerable to a minor with a stolen rifle? both columbine and newton fit this description and you say there is no way to stop
this. i think not”
Burgler bars and bulletproof glass won’t keep that from happening. If the student gets in with a weapon, he is then in a fortress that makes it harder to stop him.
getalife
December 16th, 2012
4:11 pm
Lets see, the gop cut school funding and will block any gun laws.
Your solution will have to be cheap.
Real Scootter
December 16th, 2012
4:11 pm
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
4:06 pm
I didn’t realize that Doggone.Thanks for the input!
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
4:12 pm
All schools should be a ’safe room’. Tax the guns. secure the schools.
getalife
December 16th, 2012
4:12 pm
Saints 41.
Bucs 0.
We got a shut out too.
Who dat?
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
4:13 pm
Real Scooter – you’re welcome! I can’t even remember where I read that, but it sure made sense when I did!
Brosephus™
December 16th, 2012
4:14 pm
while we ponder the shortcomings 20 kids are dead. keep the
shooter outside the building and they would be alive
For all that you’re saying, why not just keep kids at home and do school over the internet? There’s no way you will eliminate 100% of the risk for this type of incident short of putting kids on a submarine and carrying out school at 2000ft below the surface of the ocean. Even doing something like that might mitigate some risks, but you’ll end up introducing other risks into the system.
If you go back to my first post on this thread, you’ll see my thoughts on this entire subject.
http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2012/12/15/newtown-massacre-reawakens-question-of-gun-control/#comment-1177227
There is no way to avoid this, no way at all. If you ban guns completely, what’s to stop someone from pumping ricin into a school? Instead of focusing on physical barriers and such, why not expend that energy on teaching people how not to be a sitting target? Don’t you think that teaching kids how to escape situations like that as fast as possible is much better than trying to lock them into a situation where they have to wait to be rescued?
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
4:17 pm
Doggone/GA
you fail to understand evidently..or you are being obtuse,
secure the schools with burglar bars or bulletproof glass or armed guards
or metal detectors or steel doors or armed staff or all of this. we do not need
this to happen again.
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
4:21 pm
brosephus
why not expend that energy on teaching people how not to be a sitting target?
……………………………………….
schoolchildren are sitting targets as we see here. what could they have done?
Peope that are "Mentally Sick" Kill w/Guns!
December 16th, 2012
4:23 pm
Lately, the “Mentally Sick” are mostly killing by pulling “the trigger”. They NEED HELP!! GUNS don’t kill.. people do!! People ALSO kill by strangling them, using KNIVES, setting fires, ETC!!
IF the PRINCIPAL of that school could have had a gun, HOW MANY, IF ANY, WOULD HAVE BEEN KILLED… think about THAT, JAY!!!
The mentally sick SHOULD BE HELPED!!
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
4:24 pm
“why not expend that energy on teaching people how not to be a sitting target? Don’t you think that teaching kids how to escape situations like that as fast as possible is much better than trying to lock them into a situation where they have to wait to be rescued?”
Bro – did you see my post early on about teaching kids a “throw the toy” tactic? Make it a game to throw toys at a stranger when the teacher says to, or if the teacher falls down. One of the things that 911 brought about was ways for potential victims in a closed area, like a plane or train, to defned themselves. And it came out that one way was to throw as much stuff as you can at the attackers. Make it harder for them to focus and aim.
It’s a game even 5 year olds could learn, and they wouldn’t have to know it was for safety. Just make it a game…and then be sure there are LOTS of toys in the room to be thrown.
indigo
December 16th, 2012
4:24 pm
Doggone/GA – 2:57
Infringe means to tresspass.
Since I have the “right to keep and bear arms”, and since a fully automatic assault rifle, hand grenades, flame throwers, and RPG’s are arms, I have a Constitutional right to own these without any authority trespassing and seizing them.
Right?
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
4:27 pm
“we do not need this to happen again”
emotional thinking. You don’t like it. *I* don’t like it. But we cannot stop it from ever happening again. To think otherwise is to blind ourselves to reality.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 16th, 2012
4:28 pm
IF the PRINCIPAL of that school could have had a gun, HOW MANY, IF ANY, WOULD HAVE BEEN KILLED…
REAGAN AND BRADY WERE SHOT WHILE BEING PROTECTED BY THE BEST ARMED AND BEST TRAINED SECURITY DETAIL ON THIS PLANET. HOW COULD A PRINCIPAL DO A BETTER JOB THAN THOSE TRAINED PROFESSIONALS? THINK ABOUT THAT, SPORT.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
4:29 pm
“Infringe means to tresspass”
And regulation is not trespass
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
4:29 pm
Bro – did you see my post early on about teaching kids a “throw the toy” tactic? Make it a game to throw toys at a stranger when the teacher says to, or if the teacher falls down. One of the things that 911 brought about was ways for potential victims in a closed area, like a plane or train, to defned themselves. And it came out that one way was to throw as much stuff as you can at the attackers. Make it harder for them to focus and aim.
It’s a game even 5 year olds could learn, and they wouldn’t have to know it was for safety. Just make it a game…and then be sure there are LOTS of toys in the room to be thrown.
……………………………………………………………………
o.k. if the kids had thrown pencils at a man with a semiautomatic gun
they would be alive today…
Halftrack
December 16th, 2012
4:29 pm
When a tragedy occurs liberals want to blame guns. Evil is the culprit in these cases. America does not understand what evil is anymore. Also look at two states that have now legalized marijuana. A driver on legalized dope behind a wheel of a vehicle is a killer as well as maiming folks. They are as evil as people with guns.
Rightwing Troll
December 16th, 2012
4:30 pm
I’m leaning towards the notion that there should’ve been at least one trained, armed individual on that and all campuses… given the society we live in, there’s really no other solution that would’ve saved lives on friday.
This doesn’t give the NRA and you uncompromising nuts a pass, it just speaks to the reality we live in…
saywhat?
December 16th, 2012
4:31 pm
Repeal the second amendment. Its of no further use.
clem
December 16th, 2012
4:33 pm
will the good people of texas tell louie gohmert to put a sock in it.
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
4:35 pm
But we cannot stop it from ever happening again.
………………………………………….
Yes we can. Move Forward from the unsecure state of schools today
to secure schools tomorrow. Just takes money.
Tax the guns. Secure the schools.
TaxPayer
December 16th, 2012
4:36 pm
“Do they not realize they are facilitating a possible “copycat” syndrome ?”
Darned that first amendment taking precedence over the second amendment. They should be re-numbered. How does a staunch defender of the second amendment turn around and blame the first amendment for proliferating information about a second amendment advocate’s misuse of firearms with a clear conscience anyway. That’s just plain perverted.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 16th, 2012
4:37 pm
IF the PRINCIPAL of that school could have had a gun, HOW MANY, IF ANY, WOULD HAVE BEEN KILLED…
Quite possibly more would have been killed.
Only in an intellectually and spiritually diseased age could large numbers of people actually be deluded into believing that arming average people with dangerous firearms could do anything other than what it manifestly will do: multiply the carnage.
josef
December 16th, 2012
4:37 pm
BROSEPHUS
“I don’t think there’s a one size fits all solution. I think each and every school will have to look at what works best for them.”
Exactly. What we have in place at my school may not be the same plan as, say, at RF’s or Mr. B’s.
Even within the school, there are various wings, each with its own particular concerns. Added to that is knowing the staff and how they, as individuals, are likely to react. These things have to be taken into consideration when developing an “reaction” plan.
A lot of people from outside telling “the” schools what to do are not the ones who should be making the decisions. They have some good ideas, for sure, and should be listened to, but ultimately the plan has to be responsive to the local environment.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
4:38 pm
“o.k. if the kids had thrown pencils at a man with a semiautomatic gun they would be alive today”
you know, if you had read all the way to the end, you would have seen where I said to KEEP PLENTY OF TOYS AVAILABE TO THROW. Big, soft, toys throw easily, even for young children, and enough of them in an “incoming” state would make it difficult for the killer to see to aim. The point is to slow him down long enough for responders to get there. At least SOMETHING is being done besides the poor kids sitting there as easy targets.
saywhat?
December 16th, 2012
4:39 pm
It is not the traditional thinking of Americans to confront an obvious problem by throwing their hands up in the air and saying “Nothing can be done about it”, and it should not be the thinking in this case.
middle of the road
December 16th, 2012
4:39 pm
“As long as they are law abiding, it’s not your business to say who should or should not have such a gun.”
The trouble is that Adam Lanza apparently was “a law abiding citizen” (until he killed his mother and started on his rampage). We don’t allow people to buy dynamite and caps unless they are licensed, fingerprinted, background checked, etc. We don’t allow truck drivers to drive without a medical certification because of the harm they might do to others. Yet we allow ANYONE without some sort of felony conviction or mental problem (certified) to buy a high-powered rifle capable of killing a LOT of people in a short period of time.
I don’t understand why people want to own a weapon capable of such killing. I just think that they should be certified that they are of sound mind and competent and agree to keep such weapons out of the hands of lunatics (yes, like the mother’s son), children (those that play with guns and shoot each other or themselves), and criminals (don’t act as straw buyer, don’t “private sell” a gun to someone you don’t know is OK, and keep your guns under secure conditions where they won’t be stolen and used against someone else).
I don’t care if you own a shotgun, or a hunting rifle, or even a revolver in your purse or car for self-defense. Those are reasonable weapons for reasonable uses. But if you want to buy the latest army weapon for use in a war, you need to “have your head examined” first.
Brosephus™
December 16th, 2012
4:39 pm
schoolchildren are sitting targets as we see here. what could they have done?
How many school children were there in the school when the first shot went off? How many more kids got out alive? I’m not going to pretend that your points are irrelevant, but emotional thinking doesn’t always lead to best practice answers to problems.
When you convince the rest of the taxpayers in this country to foot the bill for your list, I will be the first to congratulate you on getting that accomplished.
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Doggone
I saw that post, and I had not heard of that one before for kids. I know that was debated about when it came to airplanes and such. Anything that can distract enough for people to escape is good from my point of view.