Newtown massacre reawakens question of gun control
The United States suffers more gun deaths and mass shootings than any other major industrialized country. It’s not even close. And of the dozen most deadly mass killings in U.S. history, half have occurred within the past five years. In other words, if you believe that these things are happening more and more often, the numbers validate that belief.
The question is why.
The NRA and its supporters say the problem is not easy access to guns. To the contrary, they often argue that the problem is a shortage of guns. If only we had more guns in circulation, fewer would die. The day before the tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary School, the Michigan Legislature embraced that theory in passing a law allowing those with concealed carry permits to possess weapons in schools, churches and other formerly gun-free areas. Michigan’s governor has yet to say whether he intends to sign such a bill.
However, there is no evidence to support the NRA’s contention. Those countries with much lower death rates do not achieve those rates by allowing free and easy access to guns by almost everybody, regardless of training. Quite the contrary. Those few countries in which guns are even more ubiquitous than the United States — countries such as Iraq — have much higher death rates.
In addition, gun laws are more lax here in the South and guns themselves are more numerous. Under the NRA theory, that ought to produce a more civil, less violent society. The data say otherwise:
On the other hand, those who turn reflexively to gun control as an answer must acknowledge the inadequacies of that approach as well. Yesterday’s school shooting took place in Connecticut, a state with strong gun-control laws. The pistols that were used — a Sig Sauer and a Glock of undetermined model — had been legally obtained and were registered to Nancy Lanza, the late mother of the 20-year-old shooter. It has been widely reported that a Bushmaster .223 assault weapon — a version of the AR-15 — was found in the trunk of the vehicle driven by Adam Lanza to the school. However, Lt. Paul Vance of the Connecticut state patrol said at a press conference this morning that all recovered weapons were found in close proximity to Lanza’s body.
The high kill rate in the shootings — only one person was wounded and survived — suggests Lanza was experienced with firearms. But based on what we know now, it is hard to explain in concrete, direct fashion how any reasonable set of changes to our gun laws would have prevented Friday’s tragedy.
For example, I have not been able to find any more specific information about the types of pistols used in the attack, or whether those pistols or the Bushmaster were equipped with high-capacity magazines. As a practical matter, outlawing pistols would not be feasible given how many are already in circulation. It would also be impossible politically. Outlawing high-capacity magazines might be another matter, but again, as of yet we have no indication they played a role in this attack.
Guns are inanimate objects. Guns don’t kill people; people kill people. I accept all of that as fact. However, I would have no problem whatsoever with again outlawing military-style assault weapons. Neither would the U.S. Supreme Court, even based on its most recent pro-gun rulings.
As gun supporters point out, and accurately so, other semi-automatic weapons are capable of delivering the same high fire rate as those described as assault weapons. It is striking, however, that these “other” weapons do not typically show up in the hands of mass murderers such as Adam Lanza. The military-style design of assault weapons may be superficial, but it gives them a powerful mystique to weak-minded souls pursuing visions of vengeance and power.
Speaking in general, rather than in reaction to the Newtown strategy, it is reasonable to propose that the legal ability to purchase and possess deadly firearms be linked to training and testing on the responsible use of such weapons. That would be a regulation of people, not of guns. Such proposals would nonetheless be fought bitterly by the NRA because they would reduce gun sales, and the NRA is in many ways nothing more than a front for its gun-industry sponsors.
Such laws would in no way infringe on constitutional rights as outlined in the Second Amendment and Supreme Court opinions. The millions of law-abiding, responsible gun owners in this country would have nothing to fear from such a system. In fact, as the NRA often points out correctly, those gun owners who have gone through the steps required to obtain a concealed carry permit rarely use those guns in crime. That record suggests a possible path forward for those who recognize both the constitutional right to possess firearms and the necessity of mitigating the damage done when those guns fall into the wrong hands.
– Jay Bookman
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1,704 comments Add your comment
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
1:28 pm
getalife:
Regarding an earlier point you made about banning “assault weapons”.
Some points:
1) By assault weapon I assume you mean “military style” rifles/weapons.
2) Keep in mind that it’s not how the weapon LOOKS (military vs. sporting look) but the “action” that is the issue (breech action vs. bolt action vs. pump action vs. lever action vs. semi-auto. vs. auto).
3) Automatic assault rifles are basically banned (except those grandfathered via ATF).
4) Semi-automatic “assault rifles” are not banned.
5) The issue is not what the rifle looks like but the action (a semi-auto. M-16 and a Browning semi-auto 30-06 hunting rifle have the same “action”.
6) The “MAGAZINE CAPACITY”
indigo
December 16th, 2012
1:29 pm
barking frog – 1:16
Or, maybe they’ve been “going down low”.
RF
December 16th, 2012
1:30 pm
“But not all people planning atrocities talk to others about it. We still have to deal with those.”
True, but I’ve read quite a few stories about it lately. When it’s youngsters (teenagers), they generally talk about it beforehand. They want the attention. If it stops even one, it helps. Better security at schools could help and I’m all for the locked doors and metal detectors. Little steps, but every time they work, they save lives.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 16th, 2012
1:31 pm
RF: ” If there’s any viable solution to the myriad issues involved in these type of horrendous events, perhaps it is simply getting people to report those threats before they’re acted on. Gun control laws won’t solve anything. We’re way past that point as a society. ”
It’s true in a way. We are “past” gun control now, as there is a radical erosion of the human mind, the human subject that we’re witnessing before our eyes.
Yet, all the same, there must be an extreme attack on so-called “gun rights”, with guns being confiscated en masse and people in gun shops incarcerated.
That’s the kind of thing I favor.
Whatcha think, Scout! You like that idea? Indefinite detention and incarceration for people who peddle the slaughter machines we call automatic weapons?
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
1:32 pm
Excuse me:
6) The “MAGAZINE CAPACITY” is the real issue here. What should be legal? 5 rounds (usually the minimum in a sporting rifle), 10, 20, 30 ??
Please keep in mind that restricting magazines to 10 rounds (should that happen) is really 20 rounds with a 2 second loading interval (you simply tape two 10 round magazines together and they kind be ‘flipped’ in about two seconds during reloading).
Note: We won WWII with basically an 8 round clip for the M-1 rifle. Our troops were trained (and ordered) to assault enemy positions with an assault rifle that had to be reloaded every 8 rounds ……………….. and we were successful overall.
7) As I posted earlier ………… the issue is one of school security …………. not what “looks” like an assault rifle or even magazine capacity.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
1:33 pm
“If it stops even one, it helps. Better security at schools could help and I’m all for the locked doors and metal detectors. Little steps, but every time they work, they save lives”
But we cannot forget, either, that they don’t always work. It’s my understanding that Sandy Hook DID have locked doors…and this killer broke in anyway.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
1:34 pm
getalife:
“I know scout.
I am watching the civil war in Syria.”
Then we agree that an armed populace can make the difference in overthrowing a tyrannical government ……….. and our forefathers agreed with us too.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
1:36 pm
Welcome to the Occupation:
“Whatcha think, Scout! You like that idea? Indefinite detention and incarceration for people who peddle the slaughter machines we call automatic weapons?”
Two points:
1) The Congress, the President and the Supreme Court disagree with you.
2) People with your mindset are EXACTLY why we have a 2nd Amendment.
RF
December 16th, 2012
1:36 pm
“Yet, all the same, there must be an extreme attack on so-called “gun rights”, with guns being confiscated en masse and people in gun shops incarcerated.”
RIIIIIIGHT, like that’s gonna happen. Dude, I got blasted for asking about the need for the breadth of weaponry available on the market these days. Legislation like you’re talking about wouldn’t even make it to committee in Georgia. Nor should it. Regardless of how you feel about the guns, there are estimates of over 300 million of them in the country. You’d start a war even trying to get them, and then the illegal traffic would make it even harder to track where they are. The Prohibition argument is a valid one.
Experience seems to be making one solution all the more prevalent- reporting the suspected fools before they get the chance to act. The more I think about it, the more that seems to be the only rational thing we can do right now.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
1:38 pm
“But we cannot forget, either, that they don’t always work. It’s my understanding that Sandy Hook DID have locked doors…and this killer broke in anyway.”
Which is why (just like inner city schools) all schools need armed security.
Unfortunately the choice has become ………. another coach? or an armed security officer ?
RF
December 16th, 2012
1:39 pm
“But we cannot forget, either, that they don’t always work. It’s my understanding that Sandy Hook DID have locked doors…and this killer broke in anyway.”
Unfortunately, they had windows beside the doors. That’s one change schools could make. What else can we do to make it more difficult for the unknown shooters to get in? I’m not sure as a teacher I want to be armed in my classroom, especially not in a room full of teenagers.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
1:40 pm
RF:
“Experience seems to be making one solution all the more prevalent- reporting the suspected fools before they get the chance to act. The more I think about it, the more that seems to be the only rational thing we can do right now.”
That and magnetometers (even just hand wands) and armed security/off duty officers.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
1:41 pm
RF:
“I’m not sure as a teacher I want to be armed in my classroom, especially not in a room full of teenagers.”
And that is certainly your perogative ……… but ………. there are other teachers, staff and maintenance workers who want that right.
RF
December 16th, 2012
1:41 pm
“Unfortunately the choice has become ………. another coach? or an armed security officer ?”
I don’t know about Connecticut, but in the schools I’ve worked in here in Georgia (middle and high schools), they have a school resource officer who is a trained, armed police officer. That helps, but I think we start by making it more challenging to get in the doors, i.e. don’t put full length windows around them.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
1:41 pm
“Experience seems to be making one solution all the more prevalent- reporting the suspected fools before they get the chance to act.”
And that, then, brings up the issue of “tribal loyalty” in opposition to societal loyalty. Quite often, the people who DO know in advance that such things might happen are a family group, or a friendship group. And, like it or not, we…as a society…are not fond of snitches who turn in their family member or friend. You only have to go to school to see that in operation.
So the question is: can we, or should we, try to change that tribel loyalty to a wider loyalty to society? And remembering that such a change is generally one of the first things that totalitarian rulers institute?
Welcome to the Occupation
December 16th, 2012
1:43 pm
Some of you conservatives apparently thought there was a “secret” plot by Obama to attack gun rights in his second term when he no longer had to wonder about reelection and could let his inner “socialist” come out. Well, if only!
But even though that was a paranoid fantasy, don’t worry, you might still get your wish. Not that it’s going to be Obama who does the pushing.
What might be in store for you in the not too distant future, as we continue to mop up the bits of our kids blown to bits by these slaughter tools which are allowed to proliferate by the criminal groups like the NRA, the National Child Slaughter Association, is a situation that will make you wish for the previous status quo, where you could still just fantasize about a widespread attack on gun rights.
Because I think there are a lot of people feeling like me right now, people who would like to see the back of the National Child Slaughter Association NRA broken, and a kind of rein of terror against widespread gun ownership and distribution unleashed. The day might just be drawing a bit closer now.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
1:44 pm
I talked to a federal law enforcement friend of mine last night who graduated from a North Georgia high school in 1987. He drove (again in 1987) his pickup truck to school with his .30.30 lever aciton rifle in the gun rack behind the seat so he could go deer hunting after school. Sometimes the principal would ask him where he was going hunting that day.
What has changed ? The .30.30 or our culture ?
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
1:44 pm
“Unfortunately, they had windows beside the doors. That’s one change schools could make.”
Yes, they could. But the harder you make it to get in, the harder you make it to get out. That’s not such a great thing in case of a disaster – either a fire IN the building, or a natural disaster outside it. And, there is this: do we REALLY want to make our schools into prisons:
” What else can we do to make it more difficult for the unknown shooters to get in? I’m not sure as a teacher I want to be armed in my classroom, especially not in a room full of teenagers”
Or a roomful of teenagers locked in a room with a disturbed teacher, either.
getalife
December 16th, 2012
1:45 pm
It is tough to add security when the gop are cutting education funding to get the uneducated votes.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
1:45 pm
RF @ 1:41
Agree.
Just keep in mind that once all schools are “airtight” for safety …………. the focus will shift.
RF
December 16th, 2012
1:45 pm
“That and magnetometers (even just hand wands) and armed security/off duty officers.”
Had the hand wands at my previous school and a resource officer. The hand wands are okay, but it would be better to have the walk-through detectors at every entrance door.
“And that is certainly your perogative ……… but ………. there are other teachers, staff and maintenance workers who want that right.”
Well then perhaps now is the time to bring legislation to authorize it forward. If they tell me I have to, I’ll train and carry it.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 16th, 2012
1:46 pm
Because I think there are a lot of people feeling like me right now…
I think that is a fight you will lose.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
1:47 pm
getalife:
Too bad you had to bring that up.
“Obama administration, Congress quietly let school security funds lapse”
http://www.washingtonguardian.com/washingtons-school-security-failure
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
1:48 pm
RF @ 1:45
Agree.
getalife
December 16th, 2012
1:49 pm
You want cuts scout so you got them.
RF
December 16th, 2012
1:50 pm
“So the question is: can we, or should we, try to change that tribel loyalty to a wider loyalty to society? And remembering that such a change is generally one of the first things that totalitarian rulers institute?”
Dog- is there just flat out NOTHING that will help? I hardly think reporting someone who is threatening to shoot up a school is taking a step toward totalitarianism. Is there anything that will, or do we just all throw up our hands in despair and hide out in our houses until the apocalypse comes?
RF
December 16th, 2012
1:51 pm
“It is tough to add security when the gop are cutting education funding to get the uneducated votes”
Sad, but true.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
1:52 pm
getalife:
Just make sure you put the blame where it belongs ……………. !
By the way, in any budget (private corporations or government) the first thing (instead of fraud, waste and abuse) to get cut is always “security”.
And then the wimps who cut it are the first to holler “SECURITY” when it hits the fan.
The items that should be cut are there …………… without even having to cut security.
Always a matter of priorites.
You get what you pay for.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
1:53 pm
RF @ 1:51
See my 1:47. I already nailed getalife on that ………. it was the Obama Justice Department that led the way.
They BOTH suck
December 16th, 2012
1:54 pm
Scout
Doesn’t the House basically control the checkbook?
Where was their out cry when the security funding lapsed?
HMmmmmmmmm
RF
December 16th, 2012
1:54 pm
Scout: that article was presented yesterday, and it’s hardly from a reliable source. Besides, 20-30 million, dispersed out amongst all the school districts in the country, wouldn’t pay for the paper to write the school security plan on, let alone buy any substantive protection. If we want smaller government, then they need to cut funding wherever they can. In fact, many conservatives want to shut down the DOE in DC anyway. Georgia has cut billions from education in the last ten years. Restore some of that and you won’t need the stinkin’ federal money anyway.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
1:55 pm
“Dog- is there just flat out NOTHING that will help?”
I don’t know. I think that’s a question more for the experts. But just discussing ideas, and the problems with them, helps make it clear just how difficult is the problem those experts are facing.
” I hardly think reporting someone who is threatening to shoot up a school is taking a step toward totalitarianism.”
That is not what I said, so I can’t defend that.
” Is there anything that will, or do we just all throw up our hands in despair and hide out in our houses until the apocalypse comes?”
Some of us no doubt will do just that. Others may do better. But I think it’s going to take ideas “out of the box” and we can’t get to that point without discussing the limitations of the IN the box ideas that get presented every time something like this happens.
I’m not very good at that kind of original thinking, but I can generally see quite clearly the value AND problems with ideas once they are presented. It does no good for those with ideas to get so enamored IF those ideas that they can’t bear to see the faults in them.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 16th, 2012
1:55 pm
RF: “RIIIIIIGHT, like that’s gonna happen. Dude, I got blasted for asking about the need for the breadth of weaponry available on the market these days. Legislation like you’re talking about wouldn’t even make it to committee in Georgia”
Never said it would be easy.
People are now getting lifetime sentences in some cases for what amounts to petty drug offenses. Why not 30 yrs in federal penitentiary for first offense of selling one of these slaughter tools? Life for second, or for running a ring.
getalife
December 16th, 2012
1:56 pm
scout,
You cons wanted cuts so you own them.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 16th, 2012
1:57 pm
. In fact, many conservatives want to shut down the DOE in DC anyway.
The 800 lb gorilla in the room that is currently being ignored.
luangtom
December 16th, 2012
2:00 pm
Honestly, when is the media and the government going to realize that legislation cannot stop a killer? We all see how well the War on Drugs is going with supposedly meaningful legislation. How come one can go to most any school and attain drugs with little or no problem?
Where is the outrage in the media and from our President over the deaths of ten young people on the mean-streets of Chicago the same night as the murders in CT? Chicago has some of the most restrictive firearms laws in the nation. They are not working. Ten more perished on their streets the same night as the massacre in CT. Chicago is President Obama’s adopted home-town. Where is his outrage? Are these deaths not as important as those in CT? Or, is the tragedy in CT more apt to get press and enhance the push for more knee-jerk legislation? More laws will not stop the killing.
Let this nation reflect on what brings the murderers to the point of killing innocents. Why do we try to medicate their problems away? How many children in this nation are prescribed meds to mellow them out for the sake of the parents and the teachers? Has the problem been eliminated? Or has the problem been lessened for the care-taker instead of the patient? Wake up America!
Welcome to the Occupation
December 16th, 2012
2:01 pm
Kamchak: “I think that is a fight you will lose.”
Of course. Loss is always a possibility. But there might be some ways of, well, how to put it, striking a blow in some quarters, even if the battle is ultimately a long shot in terms of
Making life very difficult for anyone supporting the National Child Slaughter Association would be one thing that would make the world a better place, for starters. As far as I know if I’m caught giving my money to Al Qaeda or any other terrorist organization will have be put on a terror list and ultimately ‘disappeared’. And nobody seems to worried about the constitutionality of that.
Why can’t something similar be possible terrorists like National Ass of Slaughtered Children members?
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
2:02 pm
RF:
I only posted that to show that getalife is always onsided. It was the Obama Justice Department.
Now that said, there is pleanty of blame to go around. Both sides can do a better job but ultimately it rests with each individual state/school district.
I repeat ………….. do you want another coach or a security officer?
Welcome to the Occupation
December 16th, 2012
2:03 pm
So, yeah, guess you can see I’m not really much of a friend to the National Association of Slaughtered Children (NRA).
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
2:03 pm
Excuse me:
“onesided”
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
2:03 pm
Welcome to the Occupation :
Or the Constitution.
you can't fix stupid or Democrats
December 16th, 2012
2:03 pm
Here we go again liberals wanting to change the constitution. well you will need 35 states to do it! Good luck on that one. The real problem is sin in nation! We have turn away from God. 1700 babies die every day in the United States because of the SC. Being Gay and Gay marriage is still a sin and God will punish the nation that turns it back on Him. Sandy, eathquakes, drought, and fires we are under judgement. Any complaints look to heaven and see if God hears them! REPENT, REPENT
RF
December 16th, 2012
2:04 pm
““So the question is: can we, or should we, try to change that tribel loyalty to a wider loyalty to society?”
If someone in the tribe is planning to kill, maybe we should. There has to be balance. As a country of many “tribes”, we have to teach some balance between loyalty to the tribe and loyalty to the country that tribe is part of. That’s one aspect of patriotism- the recognition of the nation as the larger tribe.
As much as it may be time for “out of the box” thinking as you put it, I think in the meantime we have to look for the simple things that can be done. Reporting one who speaks or writes of threatening the lives of others is one thing we can do. Politics makes solving the problems on a nationwide scale very unlikely, so it’s up to individuals and perhaps communities to do what they can.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
2:05 pm
luangtom:
Thank you !
Chris Salzmann
December 16th, 2012
2:06 pm
I’m a liberal but also a realist. In a perfect world, I would ban the sale of all guns. That won’t happen. It’s not a perfect world so here are my suggestions for what it’s worth:
1) Ban the sale of assault type weapons. The Bushmaster used in this massacre is the civilian version of the US Army AR-15 with a 30 round magazine. Same goes for civilian AK-47, M-16s, etc. So self respecting hunter would use these types of weapons for hunting. Same goes for civilian versions of high power military sniper rifles.
2) Ban the sale of all high capacity magazines (anything greater than 6 rounds).
3) Ban the sale of guns or ammo over the internet.
4) Ban the sale of all extra lethal ammo…..i.e. snub nosed bullets, metal jackets, etc.
5) Close the private sale loophole where private individuals can sell weapons unhindered by background checks, criminal history, etc.
6) Maintain a gun registry. Severely restrict the sale of more than two handguns per person.
7) No sale of weapons to anyone with a history of mental disease or for anyone living with someone with the same.
I think the above would be a good and reasonable start.
Thomas Heyward Jr
December 16th, 2012
2:06 pm
After all this settles down……..ANOTHER tragedy will happen a few days later———-The MSM will remain silent, as thousands of frightened, tear-filled little kids wait on the Bus—————————-
.
Connetecutt’s compulsory( at gunpoint by State Thugs) education law and it is the first line of CGS 10-184:
.
“Subject to the provisions of this section and section 10-15c, each parent or other person having control of a child five years of age and over and under eighteen years of age shall cause such child to attend a public school regularly during the hours and terms the public school in the district in which such child resides is in session.”
.
No matter how many massecres happen in the Government Skool…………your child will continue to go.
.
Or else.
TaxPayer
December 16th, 2012
2:07 pm
I’m glad to see scout promoting the massive tax increases needed in order to provide ample school security as opposed to pushing the cost of responsibly bearing arms onto the arms bearers. After all, the right to bear arms should not come with any responsibilities attached. Right. Am I right.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 16th, 2012
2:07 pm
Making life very difficult for anyone supporting the National Child Slaughter Association would be one thing that would make the world a better place, for starters. As far as I know if I’m caught giving my money to Al Qaeda or any other terrorist organization will have be put on a terror list and ultimately ‘disappeared’. And nobody seems to worried about the constitutionality of that.
You language suggests that you are extremely angry and irrational.
I believe that the NRA has grown far too powerful, but just like the NAACP and the ACLU, they have the right to speak to our lawmakers on behalf of their members.
To compare the NRA ( a group that represents citizens of this country) to Al Qaeda is pure emotionalism that will not advance your argument.
RF
December 16th, 2012
2:07 pm
“I repeat ………….. do you want another coach or a security officer?”
Well, since we have a fully trained police officer as our resource officer, we actually could use another science teacher…or special ed. (they’re harder and harder to find these days).
I know what you’re asking, and that’s a good question. I suspect after this week, we’ll see a few more officers in schools. Parents are likely to begin demanding it.
getalife
December 16th, 2012
2:07 pm
Good ideas Chris.
Chris Salzmann
December 16th, 2012
2:07 pm
Sorry, don’t know how that smiley face got there. In light of recent events, this is something that not only affects us but our kids as well.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
2:10 pm
“Reporting one who speaks or writes of threatening the lives of others is one thing we can do”
yes, it is. But my point was to discuss WHY people DON’T do that, even when they know. We all know the reactions of children in school when a teach leaves one student in charge to report any of their classmates who break rules while the teacher is out. What ensues can be tribal behavior of a most primitive kind.
So how far can we go to break that tribal loyalty that appears in even very young children, without going so far as to get into the realm of loyalty to society that transcend tribal loyalty to a detrimental level. THAT is what totalitarian regimes strive for…people who will turn in the “sinners” even in their own families for the “good” of society.
Once you break that bond for things like this horror, then you’ve broken it for lesser and lesser crimes. Which is what totalitarian regimes strive for. It can’t be ignored as a possible outcome.
indigo
December 16th, 2012
2:11 pm
you can’t fix – 2:03
15 to 20% of all pregnacies end in spontaneous abortion(miscarriage).
Worldwide, that adds up to thousands every day.
The New Testament says God knows even when a sparrow falls to the ground.
So, God must certainly know about, and allow all these abortions.
Since you have not “turned away from God”, have you asked Him why he allows all these abortions but insists we REPENT REPENT for legally allowing them in America?
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 16th, 2012
2:12 pm
The real problem is sin in nation! We have turn away from God.
Oh, keeping God in schools would have prevented the recent shooting?
Please tell me how many child molestations he’s prevented in churches.
Shortage of Guns?.......Tell that to the 20 children that were MURDERED.
December 16th, 2012
2:13 pm
@charles
December 16th, 2012
12:43 pm
zzzzzzz………………
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Indifference, to me, is the epitome of evil.
Evil, to me, is the shooter and people who show indifference.
Chris Salzmann
December 16th, 2012
2:13 pm
Indigo……this isn’t the time or place to have the abortion debate.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
2:13 pm
“Since you have not “turned away from God”, have you asked Him why he allows all these abortions but insists we REPENT REPENT for legally allowing them in America”
Personally, I haven’t heard God ask for repentence for legal abortions. I’ve only heard PEOPLE say that.
Chris Salzmann
December 16th, 2012
2:16 pm
Kamchak: I agree. God has nothing to do with this. I’m an Atheist so I really don’t give a crap about God. For those who believe in God and claim that God being taken out of schools caused this, to those folks I say that, is their God so weak and powerless that a He can be taken out by the stroke of a pen? Really???
RF
December 16th, 2012
2:17 pm
“t can’t be ignored as a possible outcome.”
I suppose anything is, but hasn’t that always been the struggle in the USA? From the inception of the nation, we’ve had to carefully watch for that balance, but we’ve just about always encouraged allegiance to the nation while allowing tribal loyalty. It’s a tenuous balance, but I don’t think you encourage totalitarianism. In fact, one could argue the surge in patriotism in the last decade is more of a step towards totalitarianism than encouraging people to report suspected threats. Seems to me if we become too focused on the individual tribe and weaken the loyalty to the nation as a whole, we end up back where we were just before the Civil War began.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 16th, 2012
2:20 pm
I say that, is their God so weak and powerless that a He can be taken out by the stroke of a pen? Really??
And I say that those who believe that prayer has been removed from schools hasn’t been there when a pop quiz has been announced in algebra class.
Thomas Heyward Jr
December 16th, 2012
2:21 pm
“but daddy…….I don’t want to go back”
(panicky tears flowing)
.
“Sorry kid………….it’s the LAW!”
RF
December 16th, 2012
2:22 pm
“And I say that those who believe that prayer has been removed from schools hasn’t been there when a pop quiz has been announced in algebra class.”
Nor the prayers of thanks when the teacher realizes the problem child took a sick day or a prayer for deliverance when he walks through the door.
Chris Salzmann
December 16th, 2012
2:23 pm
Kamchak @ 2:20: Good one! But seriously, conservatives make the argument that sex ed. should be left to the individual parents. I would turn around and use that same argument about the use of religion in schools. God or the lack of God had nothing to do with this tragedy.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
2:24 pm
“It’s a tenuous balance, but I don’t think you encourage totalitarianism”
I didn’t say it encouraged it. But there’s a mindset in a society that makes it possible. A willingness to break familial and friendship loyalties in favor of loyalty to the government is one of those mindsets. So as a society that values individualism, we have to ask how far down the steps to break that local loyalty can we, or should we, go without beginning to institute a mindset that will lead to an outcome we don’t intend.
I happen to agree with those who say that violent movies and games are leading to a desensitisation towards violence that might not be desireable. I don’t think we’re far enough in yet to be absolutely certain of that, but it’s a possibility.
So encouraging a society that breaks traditional loyalties in favor of a loyalty that is misued by totalitarian regimes has to be examined carefully before we go in full-throated favor of it.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
2:24 pm
TaxPayer:
Cut out ALL of the waste, fraud and abuse in government spending and there will be PLENTY of room for security expenditures.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
2:25 pm
“And I say that those who believe that prayer has been removed from schools hasn’t been there when a pop quiz has been announced in algebra class.”
AMEN to that!
getalife
December 16th, 2012
2:26 pm
It is not about God or abortions cons and there is not one simple solution.
It is about stopping another massacre of your children at school.
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
2:26 pm
Put a 50% tax on all gun sales to be used to improve school security.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 16th, 2012
2:26 pm
Nor the prayers of thanks when the teacher realizes the problem child took a sick day or a prayer for deliverance when he walks through the door.
Double those prayers when a parent of said child walks that door for a p/t conference.
Triple those prayers when that parent is also a teacher.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
2:26 pm
Chris Salzmann:
Should “firearms safety” be taught in the public schools ?
Peace
December 16th, 2012
2:27 pm
Obama uses drones and soldiers to kill children and their parents. And he’s so emotional about the use of guns to murder the defenseless in the U.S.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
2:27 pm
getalife:
“It is about stopping another massacre of your children at school.”
I just told you how that could be done.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
2:29 pm
“Obama uses drones and soldiers to kill children and their parents. And he’s so emotional about the use of guns to murder the defenseless in the U.S.”
They called it “colateral damage” in Iraq
getalife
December 16th, 2012
2:30 pm
scout,
Your party cut the funding.
Lets get real.
Rabbit
December 16th, 2012
2:30 pm
The gun advocates would have us believe we will not be safe from government encroachment unles we have the right to own an AK-47 and unlimited rounds of ammo and 100 round clips for our pistols. This is so much bunk. The only purpose of such weaponry is to kill people. If it were to rise up against government, in a battle between a basement full of guns and a bunker buster, I’m going out on a limb and suggest the bunker buster wins.
Jay’s stats on the substantial support for limiting assault capability are compelling. While we have rather spineless leadership at the state and federal levels, this sad event just might nudge everyone in the right direction.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 16th, 2012
2:32 pm
God or the lack of God had nothing to do with this tragedy.
Of course it doesn’t.
This is about the first victim not being a responsible gun owner.
She had to know that her son wasn’t “normal”, even his former classmates believed he had Asperger syndrome or some other developmental disorder. Her weapons should have been locked away in a gun safe where she was the only one with the combination.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
2:34 pm
“She had to know that her son wasn’t “normal”, even his former classmates believed he had Asperger syndrome or some other developmental disorder”
Not neccessarily. How often have family and close friends said of someone who commits an atrocity thta they had NO idea he had problems? They aren’t all lying.
getalife
December 16th, 2012
2:35 pm
“WASHINGTON, Aug 18 (Reuters) – President Barack Obama
accused Republicans on Saturday of a backward approach to
education funding that would mean further teacher layoffs, in a
veiled swipe at Republican vice presidential hopeful Paul Ryan,
who has led a drive for domestic-spending cuts.”
States are cutting school funding too thanks to the gop wanting the uneducated votes scout.
Own it scout.
Lets get real scout.
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
2:36 pm
It is much easier to fix school security since it just needs some tweaking
than it is to try to fix society. All mass murders can’t be stopped but this
one could have been.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
2:37 pm
“All mass murders can’t be stopped but this one could have been.”
You don’t know that for a fact.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 16th, 2012
2:38 pm
Not neccessarily. How often have family and close friends said of someone who commits an atrocity thta they had NO idea he had problems? They aren’t all lying.
Yes.
I believe when more details come out about the shooter, we will know more about his mental history.
Shortage of Guns?.......Tell that to the 20 children that were MURDERED.
December 16th, 2012
2:39 pm
@you can’t fix stupid or Democrats
December 16th, 2012
2:03 pm
Here we go again liberals wanting to change the constitution. well you will need 35 states to do it! Good luck on that one. The real problem is sin in nation! We have turn away from God. 1700 babies die every day in the United States because of the SC. Being Gay and Gay marriage is still a sin and God will punish the nation that turns it back on Him. Sandy, eathquakes, drought, and fires we are under judgement. Any complaints look to heaven and see if God hears them! REPENT, REPENT
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
When you think yours is the only true path you forever chain yourself to judging others and narrow the vision of God.
The real problem in this nation is self righteous.holier-than-thou: excessively or hypocritically pious people who think God only loves them.
God is a forgiving God.
Hebrews 8:12
For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.”
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 16th, 2012
2:40 pm
Sorry, Doggone/GA.
That “yes” in my 2:28 was an acknowledgement that you are correct.
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
2:40 pm
Teachers associations demanding school security could help.
PTA benefit drives for school security could help.
Holding school boards responsible for school security should be done.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
2:41 pm
“I believe when more details come out about the shooter, we will know more about his mental history”
Certainly we will. That always happens. But it won’t neccessarily be information that will help prevent a future atrocity. As the psychiatrist I heard yesterday said: millions of people present with the same personality traits that are the same as those of killers like this one. But they don’t ALL commit atrocities.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 16th, 2012
2:41 pm
2:38, not 2:28.
Geez….
hamiltonAZ
December 16th, 2012
2:43 pm
“This is about the first victim not being a responsible gun owner.”
This is a correct statement. It is also a correct statement that the rights enumerated in the first 10 amendments to the US Constitution come with a concomitant obligation. Thus, the first amendment gives us the right of free speach, but not the right to use the right irresponsibly. When we are irresponsible with the obigations associated with our rights, we are in danger of losing them. For example, we are not free to yell “fire” in a crowded theater because someone did and the free speech right was defined so as not to apply to such speech.
So if people continue to be irresponsible toward their obligations with respect to the 2nd Amendment, we are in danger of losing some of those rights or, at least, having those rights more narrowly defined. Many would suggest the time has come to do some redefining.
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
2:43 pm
Doggone/GA
I know for a fact that this shooter could have been kept out of this school
and even a contrarian should be able to see that.
getalife
December 16th, 2012
2:43 pm
This kid was raised in a wealthy household but his parents did divorce. The Dad and Brother both are asking why too. The kid was smart and a loner and had an altercation with school staff.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 16th, 2012
2:43 pm
…millions of people present with the same personality traits that are the same as those of killers like this one. But they don’t ALL commit atrocities.
Yeah sure.
But I think we need to keep guns locked away from these individuals, regardless.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
2:44 pm
1) Prior to 1970 one could go to an airport, buy a ticket and get on a plane carrying “anything” you wanted including a gun and knife. Why? Because no one checked ………. they didn’t need to ………. there weren’t any problems.
Then something happened ……….. terrorism ………. and the culture had to change.
Now every aircraft is a “gun free zone”.
2) There was a time not too long ago when kids could bring pocket knives and even guns (for hunting) to school.
Then something happened ………. mass murder ………. and the culture had to change.
Now, just like airplanes every school will have to change from a “gun restricted zone” to a “gun free zone”.
That can only be accomplished through magnetometers, a secure perimeter and armed security.
New football uniforms or security?
Time to choose.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
2:44 pm
“Holding school boards responsible for school security should be done”
Holding legislators responsible for paying for that security would help too.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
2:45 pm
“That “yes” in my 2:28 was an acknowledgement that you are correct.”
No apology needed, I understood you to mean it that way!
independent thinker
December 16th, 2012
2:45 pm
Simple solutions that the NRA zealots would oppose:
1. in person registration and renewal of guns with appropriate fees by a law enforcement/military person with confiscation if unsafe environment in home or work and more than one defensive weapon registered;
2. mandatory insurance of gun owners or onerous taxation like Obamacare- let the NRA insure its members and collect the profits.
3. ATF requirements for registering every gun manufactured and sold regardless of circumstances or state bulk sales laws and civil penalties for use in a crime if not sold originally for persomal and registered properly.
4. Anyone with a mentally defective occupant in house or history of family violence cannot own a gun.
Then maybe we cana chieve the goal of the second amendment despite Scalia’s judicial activism= “the security of a free state”.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 16th, 2012
2:45 pm
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
You’re right about that one. The constitution is an enemy of the people, a deeply reactionary document.
indigo
December 16th, 2012
2:47 pm
Chris Salzmann – 2:13
I must have missed Jay appointing you as the official monitor here.
hamiltonAZ
December 16th, 2012
2:47 pm
All the talk about school security must be from people who haven’t read that this fellow allegedly shot his way into a school that required “buzzing in” for admittance. I am not ready to have armed guard battallions at every school. This creates more problems than it solves.
josef
December 16th, 2012
2:47 pm
I am going to go a bit esoteric here for a moment, but indulge me. We speak of the cultural aspect of all this. We need go no further than just our daily language to see how violent we are as a people. We think nothing of saying, “that just kills me” over something so innocent as a funny one-liner. We don’t even raise an eyebrow when we say something like “that car note is murder on my checkbook.” Something to eat is highly complimented when “it’ll make you slap yo Momma down.” The list could go on virtually ad infinitum.
This is not something entirely confined to Americans or even English speakers, but it is much more characteristic of our American speech than even that of our fellow English speakers. Just how much we do this and how organic it is in our language of expression was brought to my attention not too long ago when someone on one of the language nut blogs from England asked about a phrase they were running across and wanted to know what it meant. The phrase was “go postal.” From London, Sydney, Hong Kong, Johannesburg, and across the English speaking world, some fascinating, but wrong, answers came in. The Americans and Canadians, however, were surprised. We “thought anybody” would know what that meant.
Just look at our own idiom here on the blog.
Does that play into such things as we are discussing today? I would say that it does, and perhaps much more than we realize or would think. I am not calling for a speech police, far from it. But I am saying that perhaps one of the places to begin in countering this insanity that seems to have gripped out American society would be with paying a little closer attention to what we say and how we say it. Then police ourselves.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
2:47 pm
“I know for a fact that this shooter could have been kept out of this school and even a contrarian should be able to see that”
How? It is a school where you have to be “beeped” in…and he broke in past that anyway.
Soothsayer
December 16th, 2012
2:48 pm
Well, after being thoroughly embarrassed by the lowly Panthers, it looks like the Falcons are taking this game seriously.
Maybe we can have one game that doesn’t come down to a “cardiac” finish. Ya think?