Newtown massacre reawakens question of gun control
The United States suffers more gun deaths and mass shootings than any other major industrialized country. It’s not even close. And of the dozen most deadly mass killings in U.S. history, half have occurred within the past five years. In other words, if you believe that these things are happening more and more often, the numbers validate that belief.
The question is why.
The NRA and its supporters say the problem is not easy access to guns. To the contrary, they often argue that the problem is a shortage of guns. If only we had more guns in circulation, fewer would die. The day before the tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary School, the Michigan Legislature embraced that theory in passing a law allowing those with concealed carry permits to possess weapons in schools, churches and other formerly gun-free areas. Michigan’s governor has yet to say whether he intends to sign such a bill.
However, there is no evidence to support the NRA’s contention. Those countries with much lower death rates do not achieve those rates by allowing free and easy access to guns by almost everybody, regardless of training. Quite the contrary. Those few countries in which guns are even more ubiquitous than the United States — countries such as Iraq — have much higher death rates.
In addition, gun laws are more lax here in the South and guns themselves are more numerous. Under the NRA theory, that ought to produce a more civil, less violent society. The data say otherwise:
On the other hand, those who turn reflexively to gun control as an answer must acknowledge the inadequacies of that approach as well. Yesterday’s school shooting took place in Connecticut, a state with strong gun-control laws. The pistols that were used — a Sig Sauer and a Glock of undetermined model — had been legally obtained and were registered to Nancy Lanza, the late mother of the 20-year-old shooter. It has been widely reported that a Bushmaster .223 assault weapon — a version of the AR-15 — was found in the trunk of the vehicle driven by Adam Lanza to the school. However, Lt. Paul Vance of the Connecticut state patrol said at a press conference this morning that all recovered weapons were found in close proximity to Lanza’s body.
The high kill rate in the shootings — only one person was wounded and survived — suggests Lanza was experienced with firearms. But based on what we know now, it is hard to explain in concrete, direct fashion how any reasonable set of changes to our gun laws would have prevented Friday’s tragedy.
For example, I have not been able to find any more specific information about the types of pistols used in the attack, or whether those pistols or the Bushmaster were equipped with high-capacity magazines. As a practical matter, outlawing pistols would not be feasible given how many are already in circulation. It would also be impossible politically. Outlawing high-capacity magazines might be another matter, but again, as of yet we have no indication they played a role in this attack.
Guns are inanimate objects. Guns don’t kill people; people kill people. I accept all of that as fact. However, I would have no problem whatsoever with again outlawing military-style assault weapons. Neither would the U.S. Supreme Court, even based on its most recent pro-gun rulings.
As gun supporters point out, and accurately so, other semi-automatic weapons are capable of delivering the same high fire rate as those described as assault weapons. It is striking, however, that these “other” weapons do not typically show up in the hands of mass murderers such as Adam Lanza. The military-style design of assault weapons may be superficial, but it gives them a powerful mystique to weak-minded souls pursuing visions of vengeance and power.
Speaking in general, rather than in reaction to the Newtown strategy, it is reasonable to propose that the legal ability to purchase and possess deadly firearms be linked to training and testing on the responsible use of such weapons. That would be a regulation of people, not of guns. Such proposals would nonetheless be fought bitterly by the NRA because they would reduce gun sales, and the NRA is in many ways nothing more than a front for its gun-industry sponsors.
Such laws would in no way infringe on constitutional rights as outlined in the Second Amendment and Supreme Court opinions. The millions of law-abiding, responsible gun owners in this country would have nothing to fear from such a system. In fact, as the NRA often points out correctly, those gun owners who have gone through the steps required to obtain a concealed carry permit rarely use those guns in crime. That record suggests a possible path forward for those who recognize both the constitutional right to possess firearms and the necessity of mitigating the damage done when those guns fall into the wrong hands.
– Jay Bookman
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1,704 comments Add your comment
josef
December 16th, 2012
10:47 am
MARKO
“If your gun collection is worth more than your house trailer, you might be a redneck. If you pass stupid knee jerk laws requiring gun ownership you might be a stupid redneck”
Do you have even the vaguest notion of how offensive that type commentary is? You might just as well be a high white West Paces Ferry Buckheadite or a Southside Ghetto Rat…Cheap, tacky and trashy.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
10:48 am
“I am a secular humanist in my public life and religious in my private life. I see no conflict, and one complements the other”
It’s the inability of too many of the “religious” to understand that the foundation of a good deal of their religous SOCIAL teachings are grounded on simply human desires to be safe from each other…and that really have nothing to do with religion.
godless heathen Christmas has declared war on me
December 16th, 2012
10:49 am
RWT: FYI
Wiki:
The .223 Remington is one of the most common rifle cartridges in use in the United States, being widely used in two types of rifles: (1) varmint rifles, most of which are bolt action and commonly have 1-in-12 rifling twist suitable for bullets between 38 to 55 grains (2.5 to 3.6 g), and (2) semi-automatic rifles such as the AR-15 and the Ruger Mini-14, which are commonly found to have twist rates of 1-in-7, 1-in-9, or 1-in-8. (Most modern AR-15s use 1-in-9 which is suitable for bullets up to 69 grains / 4.5 grams or 1-in-7 which is suitable for slightly heavier bullets, but older M16’s used 1-in-12 twist rates, making them suitable for use with bullets of 55 grains / 3.6 grams.) The semi-automatic rifle category is often used by law enforcement, for home defense, and for varmint hunting. Among the many popular modern centerfire rifle cartridges, .223 Remington ammunition is among the least expensive and is often used by avid target shooters, particularly in the “service rifle” category or 3 gun matches. The .223 is also used in survival rifles.
Ronald Reagan
December 16th, 2012
10:49 am
Gun laws should be evaluated & add an additional question to the process. Are you a Liberal? Liberals aren’t intelligent enough nor responsible to own a gun of any type.Liberals also commit a majority of crime.This measure alone would reduce criminal activity among the (working folks) Conservatives. Conservatives however had the mental ability & reasoning to own firearms. We use them to protect our home!
josef
December 16th, 2012
10:50 am
DOGGONE
Yes, And I would say vice-versa on many of those calling themselves secular humanists.
godless heathen Christmas has declared war on me
December 16th, 2012
10:51 am
Only if Webster’s defines the word redundant as being a mindless @$$hat.
LOL!
F. Sinkwich
December 16th, 2012
10:53 am
“Washington – President Barack Obama plans to travel to Newtown, Connecticut, on Sunday to meet with families of the victims of a Friday school shooting…”
O’bozo just has to be the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral.
It’s all about him, isn’t it?
josef
December 16th, 2012
10:54 am
RONALD REAGAN
Just what I said to Marko. Y’all, ineoiauo, are the proverbial Siamese twins joined at the a33…
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
10:55 am
josef
ready for stats.
RF
December 16th, 2012
10:56 am
“O’bozo just has to be the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral.”
Perhaps you prefer he be like Bush and just fly over a few days afterwards…
Of course he’s going. What would a Republican president do?
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
10:56 am
“Yes, And I would say vice-versa on many of those calling themselves secular humanists”
Well, I’m not sure I agree. If you remove all social teachings from religion, what you have left is faith…which is by rejected by SECULAR humanists. I think the “problem” is how many things regarded as religious really aren’t religion related at all.
josef
December 16th, 2012
10:56 am
SINKWICH
He is doing what the national leader should be doing. !!אַסשאַט
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
10:58 am
I think RR’s been hitting the bottle WAY, WAY too early today.
josef
December 16th, 2012
10:59 am
FROG
Here ya go, with a little background..
THE REST OF Y’ALL…beg your indulgence for the length
“Contrary to what many, including too many of the academicians, assume, only if head of household were listed as Cherokee was the family subject to deportation. Though a large number of Mixed Bloods did go on the Trail of Tears, a considerable number were left behind, some by choice and others not eligible. In 1851, in an effort to regularize the status, a census of these Mixed Bloods was taken with some 350 households enumerated. Called the Siler Rolls, this census was later updated in what was called the Miller-Guion Rolls. Of 24 districts surveyed, 15 listed the race of the household. Those listing by race provide some interesting insights.
Though most of the households were headed by White or Mixed Blood men, several were headed by White women. As early as the 1824 Cherokee census, of the 226 whites married to Cherokee, 73, or one of every three, were White women married to Cherokee men, definitely a challenge to the popular view that Mixed Bloods were the product of White men and Indian women and providing some idea of the level of acceptance afforded the mixed marriage in the period leading up to deportation.
On the Siler Rolls, of the eight households in Bradley County, Tennessee, two were headed by white women, one of whom was listed as having married a Cherokee man after deportation. Of the 22 households listed in Lumpkin County, Georgia, five were headed by white women who had married Cherokee men since deportation. In Murray County, Georgia of the eight households, two were headed by white women who had married Cherokee men since deportation, one to an Adair. In all, 13 of the 120, or one in nine of households for which race was given, were headed by White women, 18 were headed by white men, one in seven. Overall, one in four was a mixed-marriage household. The remaining three of four were marriages between Mixed Blood partners or single head of Mixed Blood. One of them, in Jackson County, Alabama, had a Mixed Blood daughter but the White mother had married a white man following the deportations.
Several of the listed hint at tragedies brought on by the deportation which often split families. The one household in Monroe County, Tennessee was that of a White male in his seventies whose Indian wife was in Arkansas. He died before they could be reunited. In another case from Marshall County Alabama, the Mixed Blood wife’s White husband had gone to Arkansas, possibly to make arrangements for her to follow. Two households were enumerated in Washington, DC. In one, the male was listed as Mixed and having married a white woman since the treaty. The other was a White with a Mixed Blood spouse and family still in North Carolina. As late as 1908 with the Churchill Rolls the status of Mixed Bloods was still in question enough to require census taking and it would be 1920s before the question was finally laid to rest with the passage of the 1924 Indian Citizenship Act granting citizenship to all American Indians, a bill much the work of Senator Charles Curtis who would serve as Vice President under Herbert Hoover, the highest office yet held by an American Indian. In 1924 Curtis had worked for the passage of legislation protecting the property ownership rights of Indian women married to non Indian men, the federal government taking action on the issue first addressed by Mississippi nearly a century earlier.
These rolls represented only those who responded, looking to be compensated for losses and/or aided in reuniting with family west of the river. Among their neighbors were many, many more who chose not to register, either comfortable in the present circumstances, fearful of doing so, or so long assimilated that it was not at issue. Unwillingness to make their Mixed Blood ancestry a public issue should not be interpreted, however, as a personal rejection of the Indian aspect of who they were. The Cherokee grandmother or grandfather became a fixture of the family genealogy and was most often a subject of pride, quietly passed on generation to generation with hundreds of thousands of “White” and “Black” citizens of North Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee, Virginia, Kentucky, West Virginia, and Alabama acknowledging Cherokee ancestry, often “on both sides.”
ad
December 16th, 2012
11:00 am
Maybe something will be done when someone shoots a couple of dozen people at an NRA convention. And don’t tell me they’d be able to stop it because they’re armed – if anyone pulled his gun, then the person next to them with a gun would think they were the shooter and, of course, shoot them.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
11:00 am
No statement here ……… just providing a news article:
HEADLINE (Yahoo News): “No rise in mass killings, but their impact is huge”
“And yet those who study mass shootings say they are not becoming more common.
“There is no pattern, there is no increase,” says criminologist James Allen Fox of Boston’s Northeastern University, who has been studying the subject since the 1980s, spurred by a rash of mass shootings in post offices.
The random mass shootings that get the most media attention are the rarest, Fox says. Most people who die of bullet wounds knew the identity of their killer.
Society moves on, he says, because of our ability to distance ourselves from the horror of the day, and because people believe that these tragedies are “one of the unfortunate prices we pay for our freedoms.”
Grant Duwe, a criminologist with the Minnesota Department of Corrections who has written a history of mass murders in America, said that while mass shootings rose between the 1960s and the 1990s, they actually dropped in the 2000s. And mass killings actually reached their peak in 1929, according to his data. He estimates that there were 32 in the 1980s, 42 in the 1990s and 26 in the first decade of the century.”
http://news.yahoo.com/no-rise-mass-killings-impact-huge-185700637.html
Brosephus™
December 16th, 2012
11:00 am
O’bozo just has to be the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral.
It’s all about him, isn’t it?
Obviously, it’s more about those who find fault with damn near everything he does. If he didn’t bother with any of this, you would have found fault with him about that. The next 4 years for you are really gonna suck, huh?
josef
December 16th, 2012
11:02 am
DOGGONE
To a great extent, I would agree with that…except that, fundamentally, the way I see it, secular humanism is just as much a leap of “faith” in the better nature of humankind.
Brosephus™
December 16th, 2012
11:02 am
I think RR’s been hitting the bottle WAY, WAY too early today.
Could still be going strong from last night. Something like a case of not being a quitter.
JamVet
December 16th, 2012
11:03 am
It’s all about him, isn’t it?
It would seem so.
At least for the whiners who are obsessed with him.
Maybe you, Pat Robertson and Ann Coulter can all cuddle up together and tell us how those people deserved it…
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 16th, 2012
11:04 am
O’bozo just has to be the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral.
It’s all about him, isn’t it?
And if he didn’t go would you bitch that he is ignoring this tragedy?
You bitch if he goes, you would probably bitch if he didn’t.
Some people are just bitches.
JamVet
December 16th, 2012
11:06 am
LiberalsChristians also commit a disproportionate majority of crimes.They make up about 75% of the US population.
And 80% of the US prison population.
Go to church and say a prayer for them, meat…
The Truth
December 16th, 2012
11:07 am
To say further restriction of firearms would have prevented this is absolutely beyond absurd. We don’t go out restricting the purchase of cars because of DUI deaths or KFC because of heart attacks. The point is that no matter what restrictions you create, people with a motive will find a way to get what they need to do the job. In this case, restrictions wouldn’t have worked because the killer took the irons from his mom.
Soothsayer
December 16th, 2012
11:07 am
This why these guys get paid the big bucks.
Watch in full-screen mode!
F. Sinkwich
December 16th, 2012
11:07 am
“The next 4 years for you are really gonna suck, huh?”
For America? Pretty much.
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
11:07 am
josef
Thanks. that’s a far greater percentage than i would have thought.
not so independent thinker
December 16th, 2012
11:07 am
DERANGED!
This blog start with the following from TM:
“”"”"”"”"”Jay I suggest that your law would have have done absolutly nothing to prevent this since it appears the mother bought the guns. What needs to change is how we find those in our society who have the ability to do this and what we are going to do with them. I”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”
Another brainwashed NRA gun hugger with no sense of reality.
Shooters Momma did not need all her guns for self defense. She had a dysfunctional 20 year old male in the house with no social skills yet she takes him to gun ranges to use the most deadly of assault weapons while crazes shooters with the same mental infirmities as her soon commit senseless and horrific mass shootings daily.Yet TM and the NRA stooges want to blame mental health officials.
“A well regulated militia being necessary for the security of a free state” has significance here unlike those five activist judges that threw the preamble of the second amendment in the trash can to give TM and the shooter’s mother the fundamental god created right to own unlimited guns and enable a nebtally ill shooter to kill little children like wild rabbits. SHAME ON YOU !
josef
December 16th, 2012
11:08 am
BROSEPHUS
@ 11:02
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
11:09 am
“To a great extent, I would agree with that…except that, fundamentally, the way I see it, secular humanism is just as much a leap of “faith” in the better nature of humankind”
There’s a lot of “faith” in humans…what each of us places faith in varies!
Shortage of Guns?.......Tell that to the 20 children that were MURDERED.
December 16th, 2012
11:11 am
@F. Sinkwich
December 16th, 2012
10:53 am
“Washington – President Barack Obama plans to travel to Newtown, Connecticut, on Sunday to meet with families of the victims of a Friday school shooting…”
O’bozo just has to be the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral.
It’s all about him, isn’t it?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
F. Sinkwich has to be the jealous HATER at every wedding.
F. Sinkwich has to be the evil happy BATER at every funeral.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
11:11 am
“not so independent thinker ”
Well, that’s pretty apparent…thanks for the warning about you
josef
December 16th, 2012
11:12 am
FROG
Surprized me, too…and while I didn’t give them, the stats for the Choctaw, Creek and Chickasaw are even higher.
I went and read up on the decision of day before yesterday. Quite interesting and with more twists and turns than a West Virginia highway…
josef
December 16th, 2012
11:13 am
DOGGONE
True, that!
Brosephus™
December 16th, 2012
11:14 am
For America? Pretty much.
I know how highly you think of yourself, but you sir, are not America. I’ll enjoy watching your meltdowns over the next 4 years.
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
11:15 am
josef
did you read about the election for principal chief?
NOT fair and balanced
December 16th, 2012
11:15 am
iF A POLICE OFFICER HAD TO INTERVIEW THE SHOOTER’S MOTHER FOR HER TO REGISTER AND KEEP THOSE ASSAULT TYPE WEAPONS IN HER HOUSE AND TO DETERMINE WHO HAD ACCESS TO THOSE WEAPONS, 28 PEOPLE WOULD BE ALIVE IN CONNECTICUT.That;s how other Western civilized countries regulate gun ownership. Glad Momma got the first bullet-she deserved it! So much for her fundamental due process right to own unlimited guns.
getalife
December 16th, 2012
11:15 am
Dems propose automatic weapon ban again.
The gop will kill it again.
Onto the next massacre.
Brosephus™
December 16th, 2012
11:15 am
josef
What can you say, some people are just not quitters.
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
11:17 am
Burglar bars could have prevented this tragedy.
aps
December 16th, 2012
11:18 am
Let’s not forget the political correctness aspect of shootings such as this. The Virginia Tech shooter was known to have some issues however no one in authority was able to say anything because of his privacy and mental health “rights”.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
11:18 am
“Burglar bars could have prevented this tragedy.”
And trapped the children in the building if there was a fire.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
11:19 am
getalife:
“Dems propose automatic weapon ban again.”
Automatic weapons are already banned.
I assume you mean “semi-automatic”.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
11:19 am
“Let’s not forget the political correctness”
If you think that, you’re just about as sick as the killer was
Soothsayer
December 16th, 2012
11:20 am
The only really effective way to stop this kind of violence is to close down those locations where history has shown that these incidents take place. Therefore all schools, universities, shopping centers and any other place where a nutcase has gone berserk should be permanently closed effective immediately.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
11:20 am
aps @ 11:18
THANK YOU !
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
11:21 am
doggone/ga
Burglar bars could have prevented this tragedy.”
And trapped the children in the building if there was a fire
…………………………………………………
not if they open from the inside, but they would not have
provided protection from a nuclear attack….
godless heathen Christmas has declared war on me
December 16th, 2012
11:22 am
Soothsayer
December 16th, 2012
11:07 am
I think I would have taken the bus that day. Thanks for posting.
Real Scootter
December 16th, 2012
11:22 am
Glad Momma got the first bullet-she deserved it
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
11:23 am
I will ask again:
One simple (very inexpensive) computer chip in every new car made or sold in the United States restricting the maximum speed of the vehicle to 55 mph would save “thousands and thousands” of lives over given time periods.
Why doesn’t our society push for that?
The TIme is Now
December 16th, 2012
11:23 am
Perhaps gun control would not have done anything for this particular massacre, but the fact is that we have way too many guns in circulation – guns that have nothing to do with hunting or self protection. Look at countries like Australia, where shooting-related assaults have gone down dramatically since enacting gun control. Its a sad day when gun rights outweigh the rights of anything else. If nothing is done now, then when? What does it take – when someone in our own families are personally impacted?
saywhat?
December 16th, 2012
11:23 am
Its time to repeal the second amendment.
Because of the shear number of guns already in private hands, there is no quick fix. Even if all guns were banned tomorrow, it would be decades before gun violence became less prevalent. I would be willing to take action now and wait vs. do nothing.
I would happy to see a public ban on all guns except single shot rifles, limited magazine (2-3 rounds) shot guns, single shot handguns, i.e. the only weapons which could arguably be primarily used for sport/hunting. All guns should be required to be registered, and maybe even stored at a locked facility to be signed out for use. This should coincide with a tax on all guns and ammo sold, plus an annual tax on all guns owned, to be used exclusively to pay for security at schools. I don’t care if the tax is prohibitively high. Any body who doesn’t wish to pay the tax, can turn in their gun for destruction, and MAYBE, recieve a nominal payment. Any body purchasing a gun should undergo pschological testing at their own expense, and be retested every year as long as they continue to own the gun. Severe penalties should be in effect for those keeping unregistered guns, not paying the tax, or failing to get pschologically tested.
If all this were done, maybe my grandchildren would be able to live in an America without these too frequent gun murders.
getalife
December 16th, 2012
11:23 am
scout,
My bad,
“Dems To Introduce Assault Weapons Ban Bill” HP
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/dianne-feinstein-assault-weapons-ban_n_2311477.html
Don’t worry, your party will kill it.
ad
December 16th, 2012
11:23 am
Let’s blame the shootings on everything that has nothing to do with the shootings. The building’s construction, mental health, video games, tv, etc. Let’s ignore the one thing that all shootings have in common – guns.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
11:24 am
Real Scootter:
I’m glad he got the last one. He deserved it.
josef
December 16th, 2012
11:24 am
BROSEPHUS
FROG
Yeah, I’ve been following this one for a while. It’s kind of interesting to see the “media bias” on this, too. Not at all out to defend him, mind you, but the reports tend to ignore that he had the support of the Freedmen descendants with the infamous CDIB card! Like I said, this one has its twists and turns and, well, who said the Civil War was over!
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
11:24 am
“not if they open from the inside, but they would not have provided protection from a nuclear attack”
If they can be opened from the inside, they can be opened from the outside, especially if the window is at ground level. And don’t forget, children in that school are as young as 5 years old. If it’s easy enough for a child that young to open, it’s not going to keep many “burglers” out.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
11:25 am
“Let’s ignore the one thing that all shootings have in common – guns.”
Let’s ignore the one thing that all shootings have in common – people.
godless heathen Christmas has declared war on me
December 16th, 2012
11:25 am
Dems propose automatic weapon ban again.
They’re not called knee-jerk liberals for nothing.
saywhat?
December 16th, 2012
11:25 am
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
11:23 am
I will ask again:
One simple (very inexpensive) computer chip in every new car made or sold in the United States restricting the maximum speed of the vehicle to 55 mph would save “thousands and thousands” of lives over given time periods.
Why doesn’t our society push for that?
———————————————
Because the speed limit is 60, 65, and 70 mph on many highways?
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
11:25 am
“Perhaps gun control would not have done anything for this particular massacre, but the fact is that we have way too many guns in circulation – guns that have nothing to do with hunting or self protection”
And as long as the owners are law abiding, it’s none of your business what, or how many, they own.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
11:26 am
getalife:
1) You are welcome.
2) I hope so.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
11:26 am
“If all this were done, maybe my grandchildren would be able to live in an America without these too frequent gun murders”
Beware a false sense of security
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
11:27 am
“Let’s ignore the one thing that all shootings have in common – guns”
A shooter
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
11:27 am
“Because the speed limit is 60, 65, and 70 mph on many highways?”
and because they can be pretty easily reprogrammed
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
11:29 am
“Perhaps gun control would not have done anything for this particular massacre, but the fact is that we have way too many guns in circulation – guns that have nothing to do with hunting or self protection”
But not way too many to curtail tyrannical government ………… which is why the 2nd Amendment is there.
From “Heller v D.C. Government” :
Page 24
b. SECURITY OF A FREE STATE
“The phrase “security of a free state” meant “security of a free polity” not security of each of the several states.”
“There are many reasons why the militia was thought to be “necessary for the security of a free state” ……….. Third, when the
able bodied men of a nation are trained in arms and organized, they are better able to resist tyranny.”
Page 25
3. RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PREFATORY CLAUSE AND OPERATIVE CLAUSE
“That history showed that the way tyrants had eliminated a militia consisting of all the able bodied men was not by
banning the militia but simply taking away the people’s arms, enabling a select militia or standing army to suppress
political opponents.”
Page 26
“It was understood across the political spectrum that the right helped to secure the ideal of a citizen militia, which might
be necessary to oppose an oppressive military force if the constitutional order broke down.”
Real Scootter
December 16th, 2012
11:29 am
I’m glad he got the last one. He deserved it.
No arguement here Scout! This whole thing still has my gut wrenched.
Shortage of Guns?.......Tell that to the 20 children that were MURDERED.
December 16th, 2012
11:29 am
@JamVet
December 16th, 2012
11:06 am
Liberals Christians also commit a disproportionate majority of crimes.
They make up about 75% of the US population.
And 80% of the US prison population.
Go to church and say a prayer for them, meat…
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
To be sure, there have been mass murders committed by people of all races throughout history, and not every mass murder since 1980 has been committed by a young white male.
However, this one subset, which centers around schools, has enough unique characteristics that it seems to demand its own answer.
What if my hypothesis is correct?
What if the main reason these shootings keep occurring is that WHITE MEN aren’t handling equality very well?
There aren’t, I believe, any easy answers. Even so, we can take this perspective with us, and we can work to think of ways to help young white males grow up in a society where the expectation of privilege is never indoctrinated.
We can teach them early in life how to cope with REJECTION.
We can realize that pointing fingers and blaming others might feel good in the short term, but in the long term, only working towards positive solutions will really help. And yes, we can absolutely continue to advocate for better mental healthcare.
Finally, I think we need to be brave enough to have conversations like this one. We need to ADMIT the possibility that by perpetuating the LIE OF WHITE MALE SUPERIORITY despite strong societal and scientific pressure to change, WE MAY HAVE CREATED OUR OWN MONSTER..
Source: Kalish, R., & Kimmel, M. (2010). Suicide by mass murder: Masculinity, aggrieved entitlement, and rampage school shootings. Health Sociology Review, 19(4), 451-464.
..
getalife
December 16th, 2012
11:30 am
scout,
The only difference this time is the children got massacred.
This makes it harder for your party to kill it but they will.
Parents will be outraged but most already left your failed party.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 16th, 2012
11:31 am
I’d go one better and require any handgun owner to undergo such training. I don’t expect I’d get much support from folks here on that, but given that handguns have no practical purpose other than self-defense, it seems reasonable to me.
I would have no problem with that.
I don’t intend to get a carry permit, and I would welcome that kind of instruction.
In N.C., a one day class is required ($95) for CCW permit but in Ga. no such class is required and neighboring states honor that permit issued in Ga.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Shooters Momma did not need all her guns for self defense. She had a dysfunctional 20 year old male in the house with no social skills…
And this is where I’m having trouble. Having that kind of son doesn’t disqualify her from owning legally obtained firearms, but I do think that she should have gone the extra mile because she did have that kind of son.
That means a gun safe, where she was the only one with the combination.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
11:32 am
Those are “maximum” speed limits……………….. and the minimum speed on the interstates I believe is 40mph. So ………… a 55 mph restrictive computer chip (regardless of the few who change them) would save thousands and thousands of lives.
The point is ……………. society at some point values freedom over regulation.
We always have and we always will.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
11:33 am
“I’d go one better and require any handgun owner to undergo such training.”
Think it through …………. then a future murderer might be even more lethal with that weapon.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
11:36 am
getalife:
How many states still don’t have “open container” laws ?
People are “massacred” everyday on our highways. There are MANY things that could be done to minimize that but society chooses not to.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 16th, 2012
11:36 am
Out for awhile.
Everyone try to be nice.
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
11:37 am
repealing the 2nd amendment would not ban gun ownership. the amendment
restricts the government from infringing on rights already in existence.
getalife
December 16th, 2012
11:38 am
No scout holes for me today scout.
I would rather focus on the issue.
How do we stop our children from being massacred at school again?
saywhat?
December 16th, 2012
11:40 am
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
11:26 am
“If all this were done, maybe my grandchildren would be able to live in an America without these too frequent gun murders”
Beware a false sense of security
__________________________________________________
Nothing false about it. Fewer guns = fewer gun crimes. No where do I assume there would be NO gun crime, just less.
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
11:40 am
to protect from a tyrranical government the ownership of anti-aircraft
guns should be encouraged…
saywhat?
December 16th, 2012
11:42 am
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
11:37 am
repealing the 2nd amendment would not ban gun ownership. the amendment
restricts the government from infringing on rights already in existence.
———————————————————————-
Repealing the second amendment would allow laws to be passed which are currently held to be unconstitutional.
getalife
December 16th, 2012
11:42 am
frog,
That is what the Syrian rebels needed.
willie lynch
December 16th, 2012
11:44 am
I hear people saying I own a gun and I own it legally so I’m not the one you have to worry about. Until.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
11:45 am
“Nothing false about it. Fewer guns = fewer gun crimes. No where do I assume there would be NO gun crime, just less”
You are reckonning on criminals who would do gun crimes being law abiding enough to not try to get one if they are illegal. That’s a false sense of security.
Brosephus™
December 16th, 2012
11:47 am
“Let’s ignore the one thing that all shootings have in common – guns.”
Let’s ignore the one thing that all shootings have in common – people.
Ummmm…
You can fill the Superdome with a capacity crowd and litter the field with thousands of guns. That does not automatically mean you will have a shooting because people and/or guns are present. Shootings do not occur without a shooter.
Just sayin’
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
11:48 am
saywhat
only if the supreme court agrees the right to keep and bear arms
is not inherent in the constitution. some believe the first 10 amendments are
just enumerating rights already in existence that restrict the government explicitly.
Brosephus™
December 16th, 2012
11:49 am
Doggone @ 11:27
wet wiccan
December 16th, 2012
11:49 am
to those who are trying to equate what happened in Connecticut to deaths in car wrecks or swimming pool drownings – when has it ever happened that 20 children were all dropped in a pool at the same time and forcibly drowned at once? when has it ever happened that 20 children were all packed into a car at the same time and then crushed the car? Jeez ….
and now a rant about the media coverage of this – way too much – it is voyeuristic and not doing anyone any good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-Q9D4dcYng
barking frog
December 16th, 2012
11:51 am
getalife
yep. egypt too.
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
December 16th, 2012
11:51 am
Well, the Rev. Postlewaite almost kept me awake this morning but in the end I dozed till somebody poked me in the ribs and handed me the offering plate. I put in my dime and passed it on and then dozed again till the noise of everybody getting up woke me. Nothing like a good church service to make a body feel rested and charged up for another week.
I see the politicans are jumping on this Conn. shooting like a robin on a June bug. Even county commissioners are firing off e-mails to people, going on and on about how sad it all is and how it count of been prevented if only the teachers were packing heat when that guy busted in. I know there’s times that teachers need a weapon but something tells me that 1st grade students ain’t no threat to them.
Anyway I plan on watching the Falcons
disgrace theirselfs againstbeat the tar out of the Giants today. The missus will just have to wait till next Sunday to go to Ryans.Have a good Sabbath everybody.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 16th, 2012
11:52 am
to protect from a tyrranical government the ownership of anti-aircraft
guns should be encouraged…
I’ll take a phalanx, please.
Gene
December 16th, 2012
11:52 am
I have a collection of antique and modern firearms and have shot competitively in the military. There must be controls on magazine capacity. There is no reason for a target shooter or hunter to fire more than five rounds without reloading. Handgun magazines should be limited to ten rounds or even eight. There are enough large-capacity magazines on the market now to last 50 years or more. I would support more strenuous background check and licensing. Someone in schools–principals or assistant principals or other administrators–should be trained and armed. There is no way that police can prevent these tragedies, but an armed administrator in the school could at least respond to an intrusion in a timely manner. My heart goes out to the parents and family members of those murdered innocents.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
11:53 am
“to those who are trying to equate what happened in Connecticut to deaths in car wrecks or swimming pool drownings – when has it ever happened that 20 children were all dropped in a pool at the same time and forcibly drowned at once”
It isn’t the DEATHS that are being equated, but it’s very telling that you think so. What is being equated is that they are all TOOLS, that can be be good…or can do harm. Blaming the tool does not do anything to solve the problem that it is PEOPLE who are at fault, not the tools.
saywhat?
December 16th, 2012
11:54 am
You are reckonning on criminals who would do gun crimes being law abiding enough to not try to get one if they are illegal. That’s a false sense of security.
———————————————————–
Incorrect. I am reckoning on there being a much smaller supply of guns and ammo available in 20-30 years if the steps I advocated, among others, were taken. I freely acknowledge that it would not eliminate gun crime, merely reduce it.
Corey
December 16th, 2012
11:55 am
@F. Sinkwich
December 16th, 2012
10:53 am
“it’s all about him”
No, but your every waking moment is about him, aka ODS (Obama Derangement Syndrome). Somehow I get the feeling you want to blow the man, no?
ricardus
December 16th, 2012
11:57 am
I predicted columns like this as events were unfolding on Friday. In the socialist world, never let a crisis go to waste.
Bookman needs to learn that the Second Amendment is settled law unless you are not an American and only taking up space here.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
11:58 am
“I freely acknowledge that it would not eliminate gun crime, merely reduce it”
and I think you’re still putting your faith in a false sense of security. Think the war on drugs.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
12:00 pm
“I predicted columns like this”
It’s easy to “predict” after the fact
Brosephus™
December 16th, 2012
12:00 pm
Think it through …………. then a future murderer might be even more lethal with that weapon.
Is that any different than giving juvenile gang members the choice of going to jail or going to the military? You also have gang members who are volunteering for military service and getting trained on how to be an efficient and effective killer.
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/CERES-STANISLAUS-COUNTY-Marine-who-killed-cop-2738399.php
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 16th, 2012
12:01 pm
I predicted columns like this as events were unfolding on Friday.
I predicted that you would predict this.
saywhat?
December 16th, 2012
12:01 pm
It isn’t the DEATHS that are being equated, but it’s very telling that you think so. What is being equated is that they are all TOOLS, that can be be good…or can do harm. Blaming the tool does not do anything to solve the problem that it is PEOPLE who are at fault, not the tools.
_______________________________________________________________________
Tools whose primary purpose is to kill people do not need to be widespread. While gun deaths may not be the fault of the “tool”, they are certainly the fault of the people who work to make those tools so widespread and easily obtainable.
saywhat?
December 16th, 2012
12:09 pm
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2012
11:58 am
“I freely acknowledge that it would not eliminate gun crime, merely reduce it”
and I think you’re still putting your faith in a false sense of security. Think the war on drugs.
——————————————————-
False equivalency in too many ways to list.
Are you saying it would “false” to feel more secure against gun violence in Britain than in the U.S.?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom
Are you sure?
midtownguy
December 16th, 2012
12:11 pm
I had a professor in graduate school who always said “anyone who thinks there is a simple answer to a complex question is a fool.” I think reasonable and adequate control of access to guns is one of those issues. On one hand, no one wants to limit the number of rifles and shotguns a hunter can own, but on the hand does any private citizen need an assault rifle?
But in situations like this, the real issues seems to be the inadequacy of our mental health diagnosis and treatment system. No sane person does this. The act is, by definition, that of a mad man. What kind of tortured mind guns down children?