Horror in a Connecticut elementary school
It’s hard to know what to say about the horror that took place this morning in a Connecticut elementary school. The combination of a madman, children and guns has left a reported 27 dead, including 20 children, most of them apparently executed in a single kindergarten classroom.
Again, 27 dead, and hundreds and hundreds directly connected to them have had their lives forever diminished. Even the millions of us who knew nobody in Newtown have been left chilled to the bone on this early winter day.
The 24-year-old gunman, dressed in paramilitary garb, is among those dead. His mother, a teacher at the school, is dead as well. Three weapons were reportedly found at the scene — a .223-caliber assault rifle and two semi-automatic handguns.
As always, the trauma inflicted on those families and that community is difficult to comprehend, and it is compounded by the brutal senselessness of the crime. Tragedies such as this always create questions — “How?” and “Why?” just the beginning of them — for which there can never be adequate answers.
I do know that anybody capable of such cold-blooded killings exists in a world that is far darker than any of us are able to imagine. I also suspect that crimes such as this are perpetrated in part to force the rest of us to glimpse — if just for a horrifying moment — that place so devoid of warmth and light.
Someone on Twitter just asked me: “WHY does this happen now when it didn’t 40, 50 years ago? WHAT is different?” I don’t know the answer to that one either. I suspect that we are witnessing a form of hysteria, as easily communicable as a computer virus from Aurora, Colo. to Clackamas, Ore. to Newtown, Conn., and once that virus is released it is impossible to predict where it might emerge next. Individuals who once might have stewed, alone, in their twisted anger and bitterness now recognize others like themselves on the evening news, and one violent incident creates a sort of permission for the next.
– Jay Bookman
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557 comments Add your comment
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
7:50 pm
“Without one, not much chance of coming out alive or not experiencing severe trauma”
Not a given. If you look into it you might be surprised at how many defensive techniques there are that an unarmed person can use.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 14th, 2012
7:50 pm
Absolutely true, but that still doesn’t justify a person having the ability to fire multiple rounds per second and pull of the trigger.
A weapon that fires, “multiple rounds per second and pull of the trigger” is only available to people with a special license. None of the weapons found today meets that definition.
RF
December 14th, 2012
7:53 pm
Okay, Doggone, here’s my solution.
1. Make them illegal, period.
2. Ad campaign to further the image of them as unnecessary and bad to own.
3. Incentives for giving them up, or registration for keeping them. Then we know where at least a few are.
4. Stiffer punishments if used in a crime.
Any of that guaranteed or perfect? NOPE, but it’s a start. What’s your solution? Just ignore them?
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
7:53 pm
“None of the weapons found today meets that definition.”
Kind of reminds me of attacking Iraq because a bunch of Saudi Arabs attacked us. It didn’t do anything to stop any future attacks, but it FELT LIKE it did.
bman.
December 14th, 2012
7:54 pm
I don’t own a gun…not even a bb-gun. I’m not sure what the gun laws are now, but I wouldn’t have a problem with more gun control. Of course, that won’t stop what happened today….and it won’t stop it the next time.
It takes a very sick individual to do this.
td
December 14th, 2012
7:54 pm
RF
December 14th, 2012
7:50 pm
A Sig is a Semi Automatic pistol just like the (probably Glock) 9mm that he had. Both guns are carried by many people for self defense purposes. I take it you think all Semi-Auto pistols should be outlawed?
Nunna Yobinnes
December 14th, 2012
7:57 pm
Doggone, I’m not Bruce Lee, Kwai Chang Cain, Walker Texas Ranger or John Rambo. I think my odds would be better with a firearm.
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
7:57 pm
“Any of that guaranteed or perfect? NOPE, but it’s a start. What’s your solution? Just ignore them”
Make them harder to get. Make the requirements for ownership and protection stiffer. Make it a law that ALL guns currently in legal ownership, and ALL guns available for sale legally have their bullet markings recorded with the serial number of the gun and the name and SSN of the owner. Make the background checks stiffer and more complete.
Make the last recorded owner at least partly responsible if his gun is used in a crime and he has NOT reported it stolen. As you said, make their use in a crime carry a stiffer sentence.
As for the ads, that would be useless…unless you are ALSO prepared to ban all movies, TV shows, and computer games that feature them.
RF
December 14th, 2012
7:57 pm
“None of the weapons found today meets that definition”
Kamchak: Maybe not, we’ll see I guess. My knowledge of Sig Sauers, while limited, is generally that they are semi-automatic. In my understanding, that means several rounds fireable in a short time from a clip without the need to cock the pistol each time. I’m no gun enthusiast, so feel free to clear up my lack of experience and knowledge.
DebbieDoRight - A Do Right Woman
December 14th, 2012
7:58 pm
Guns Don’t Kill People!!!
People WITH Guns kill people!!!!
BAN PEOPLE!
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
7:58 pm
“Doggone, I’m not Bruce Lee, Kwai Chang Cain, Walker Texas Ranger or John Rambo”
And you aren’t even curious enough to look into it and find out you don’t have to be any of those. You’ll be in a world of hurt if you ever get disarmed.
Nunna Yobinnes
December 14th, 2012
7:59 pm
There you go Debbie!
RF
December 14th, 2012
8:01 pm
:I take it you think all Semi-Auto pistols should be outlawed?”
I don’t know, td, I honestly don’t know. The scared parent in me says YES, but the realistic citizen knows that can’t be done. Do we need to make schools fortresses? The scared parent says YES, but that’s not realitic either. Frustrated like many, I wonder what we can do. But throwing our hands up and throwing the second amendment up isn’t doing anything to help either.
Nunna Yobinnes
December 14th, 2012
8:02 pm
Doggone, I did take a self defense course in college, 30+ years ago. However unless you can engage the intruder at close range without him being able to use a weapon, you are a sitting duck. If he’s fifteen feet away, and has a gun, you’re toast.
RF
December 14th, 2012
8:02 pm
“Make them harder to get. Make the requirements for ownership and protection stiffer. Make it a law that ALL guns currently in legal ownership, and ALL guns available for sale legally have their bullet markings recorded with the serial number of the gun and the name and SSN of the owner. Make the background checks stiffer and more complete.”
NOW you’re talking. Seems that wouldn’t be so hard to do, but so many are either afraid to do it, or it isn’t politically popular to do so. I wonder if we’ll ever get to something that sensible.
godless heathen Christmas has declared war on me
December 14th, 2012
8:04 pm
Well enough of this endless debate. I got to get to the gun store early in the AM and buy a couple because the prices will be going up after this stupid sheet in Conn.
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
8:06 pm
“However unless you can engage the intruder at close range without him being able to use a weapon”
If he’s close enough to disarm you, he’s close enough to be vulnerable to those techniques.
Nunna Yobinnes
December 14th, 2012
8:06 pm
godless…plus the whackos on 12/21.
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
8:07 pm
” I wonder if we’ll ever get to something that sensible.”
Well, money talks…and the NRA has a LOT of money.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 14th, 2012
8:08 pm
RF
Yes, semi automatic so that means a trigger pull for each round.
I’m thinking somewhere around 1-2 rounds per second unless he was a record holder in that category. Looking at the Sig Sauer website, their models come with anywhere from 8 to 19 round capacity magazines. Probably similar to the Glock he was carrying too.
For the defense arguers, if it takes 19 rounds to settle an argument — you probably shouldn’t own a hand gun.
Violence abounds
December 14th, 2012
8:09 pm
We talk about violence and its prevalence in our society, but let us not forget that at the root of all government action is violence. Government does not create money, it must take it from others before it has any to spend. This involves violence (theft). Government does not allow individuals to live their lives as they see fit so long as they do no harm to others. Quite the contrary. Our government encarcerates more people than any other on the planet and most for ingesting chemicals the government does not approve of. Once again, violence against individuals because of government’s opposition to free choice. Ultimately EVERY action of government comes without choice and is backed up by violence, guns, and death as the ultimate penalty.
Our government currently has troops stationed in over 170 countries on earth in over 1200 bases. They take money by force from citizens in this country to give to tyrrants in other countries so they can oppress their own people (among other things). They fly drone aircraft over sovereign nations and shoot missles at people without due process, kill them, and consider anyone over the age of 15 and male a viable target if they are in the area. Our president maintains a “kill” list and has even ordered the assassination of 2 american citizens without due process (one a 16 year old). These drones kill hundreds of innocent men, women, and children in the process (even if our lapdog media don’t bother to cover this on the evening news). Our government is currently waging a financial and economic embargo against the people of Iran because it does not like their government. At least 50% of the people in this country do not like our president and over 80% do not like our congress. We hold elections every 2 years, cannot seem to fix our problems with goverment, yet we condemn 45 million Iranians to starvation and death because they will not get rid of their government. In the 90’s our sanctions led to the deaths of 1.5 million Iraqis including 500,000 children. Madeline Albright, our secretary of state said on 60 minutes that she felt these deaths were “worth it” to achieve regime change in Iraq (as if that is up to us to decide).
So when we speak of violence, we do not need to look to the TV, video games, the internet, or our inner cities. Violence begins at the very core of our society – our government. Government by some definitions is the group of people who reserve the right of legalized violence in a given geographic area. Are they really anything but? The moral behavior we expect and demand of our fellow citizens becomes irrelevant when we discuss government and the things it does (sometimes on our behalf – theft).
Just what kind of violence to YOU endorse with your vote and your political beliefs? Our children aren’t missing the messages we are sending about right and wrong.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 14th, 2012
8:10 pm
Government does not create money, it must take it from others before it has any to spend. This involves violence (theft).
Aaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnddddd I quit reading.
DebbieDoRight - A Do Right Woman
December 14th, 2012
8:11 pm
Its time to take a seriously hard look at our love affair with guns.
Before i start, let me clarify something:
**I am a gun owner — I own multiple guns/rifles. I also have a hunting license and have been out hunting in the past 3 years, (i Hate to hunt, but my hubby, brothers, etc. like to do it so…..) – I have been trained to use a gun and a rifle and I regularly go to the gun range to keep my skills up.
**I also own 3 “Attack Dogs”; who are trained to protect me.
**I also have a 3rd degree black belt.
**I have all these things because of MY past experiences and MY neurosis. AND because I lived alone while my husband was overseas.
However –
I’m now living in my sister’s house with an infant, a mentally challenged 60 year old woman, and a woman who about to deliver twins any day….
So my guns are locked at all times -
– A locked gun won’t be able to protect me in a “situation”; BUT my 3rd degree black belt and my dogs may.
My point is — You can’t always depend on a gun — so you’d better have a back up plan just in case you can’t get to your gun
Also the dogs, since there IS a toddler in the house, are now at my cousin’s house in Douglasville until after I move back into my place — its safer for everyone to NOT have dogs/toddlers together.
AND my heart my bleed for the pain and suffering of others and I may be the biggest bleeding liberal you will ever see……..
……….but I didn’t grow up an Army Brat for nothing.
Just saying
December 14th, 2012
8:12 pm
Everyone knows that schools are “gun free zones.” The risk of getting shot by someone while you are committing such a crime there is nearly zero. A gun show on the other hand is quite the opposite. There is absolutely NO question among virtually any member of the public that a violent act or attempted act at a gun show will result in immediate and lethal action by attendees, vendors, etc. There has NEVER been a mass shooting at a gun show, despite the presence of literally thousands of guns (and likely more than a few people with mental issues).
It is not about someone with a concealed weapon stepping up and killing the perpetrator. The affect of concealed carry laws and the prevalence of concealed carry weapons reaches all the way back to the planning stages of the perpetrator. If he/she knows that he will face no opposition then that is a factor in their choice of target/location. If he knows he MAY face lethal response, that will be a factor. Yes, we are talking about someone with a serious mental disorder, but ultimately he had a motive and a goal. If that goal could not be easily achieved because of likely opposition, another location might have been selected. There were adult targets this individual had issue with. Had they all been somewhere with a high likelihood of guns present, he might have chosen somewhere else besides a school to carry out his plans. Might his mother and other adults be dead? Yes. Would so many kids be dead? Certainly not likely.
Nearly all incidents of mass shooting have happened at locations where the likelihood of firearms being present was extremely low. These are just facts.
DebbieDoRight - A Do Right Woman
December 14th, 2012
8:15 pm
But throwing our hands up and throwing the second amendment up isn’t doing anything to help either.
Word.
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
8:16 pm
I heard another interview this evening with someone involved in an organization that studies violence. Sorry, didn’t catch either his name or the name of his organization, but basically he said that mass murder violence has NOT increase. The US has hovered around 150 killed in mass murders, per year, for decades. And then he contrasted that with the 15,000 victims of single victim violence in the USA PER YEAR
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 14th, 2012
8:17 pm
Everyone knows that…
In no way, shape, form or fashion do you possess the authority to define what it is that I know.
A gun show on the other hand is quite the opposite.
At every gun show that I have attended, loaded weapons are expressly forbidden.
DebbieDoRight - A Do Right Woman
December 14th, 2012
8:18 pm
Nearly all incidents of mass shooting have happened at locations where the likelihood of firearms being present was extremely low. These are just facts
The fact is that someone with a mental disorder SHOULD NOT HAVE ACCESS TO GUNS. Period.
My aunt, is “special needs” and we have to lock certain things away from her so she won’t hurt herself or someone else. We know this — so we adjust the household to fit that assumption.
We the people of the USA can do the exact same thing when it comes to selling guns arbitrarily to anyone with the money to buy them.
Violence abounds
December 14th, 2012
8:19 pm
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes – Of course you stopped reading. Nobody like facing the reality that they are the recipient of stolen goods or that their political philosophy ultimately involves violence against another (or everyone ultimately). I understand your inability to face these realities, but please explain how I am wrong.
When a private business offers me a service or a product, I am not forced to buy, I am not force to hand over my money, I am allowed to go and look elsewhere for the good or service or acquire it myself from the sweat of my brow. If that business uses force, fraud, or other violent means against me it is a crime. The government does not act in this market-based system. It is a monopoly that one has no choice regarding.
One can hide behind words like “democracy” which the founding fathers referred to as “mob rule.” One can hide behind concepts like “majority rule” or “rule of law,” but ultimately the actions that an individual is not allowed by natural law to commit – murder, theft, assault, violence against another, etc. all become conveniently “legal” if a “government” says so (at least for them). Thus the immorality of government.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 14th, 2012
8:20 pm
**I also have a 3rd degree black belt.
Let me apologize now for every implied derogatory comment I have or will post about Auburn.
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
8:21 pm
Enter your comments here”At every gun show that I have attended, loaded weapons are expressly forbidden”
And yet…not to long ago, couple/three years maybe, a kid was killed when a loaded gun went off and killed him..at a gun show.
Just saying
December 14th, 2012
8:21 pm
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes – While the customers at a gun show may not have loaded weapons, nearly every vendor carries a loaded gun. Just ask next time you are at one (yeah, right).
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 14th, 2012
8:21 pm
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes – Of course you stopped reading.
Aaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnddddd I stopped reading — again.
DebbieDoRight - A Do Right Woman
December 14th, 2012
8:23 pm
Let me apologize now for every implied derogatory comment I have or will post about Auburn.
Thank you for that! You always know what to say.
You sweet talker you….
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
8:23 pm
“The fact is that someone with a mental disorder SHOULD NOT HAVE ACCESS TO GUNS. Period.”
And that FACT IS that most killers like this present NO SIGNS of mental disturbance UNTIL the commit their crime.
DebbieDoRight - A Do Right Woman
December 14th, 2012
8:26 pm
This is a sad day folks, so much death and destruction today. I’m going to go and play with my nephew and call my hubby. I want to smile for a while and hear some laughter.
Thanks again Kamchak — you made my day.
Later gators.
RF
December 14th, 2012
8:26 pm
“For the defense arguers, if it takes 19 rounds to settle an argument — you probably shouldn’t own a hand gun.”
Yeah, I think you’re right!!
DDR: in most cases, the one needing the gun for defense can’t get to it fast enough as the aggressor usually has his/her gun already pointed with a finger on the trigger. Most would do better to have the dogs or martial arts skills. I had a drunk fool show up on my doorstep banging on the door one night thinking he was at home. By the time I was able to get a gun out of the closet and find the bullets (store separately of course), the cops were already here en masse and had him entertained with more than my front door.
Just saying
December 14th, 2012
8:30 pm
DebbieDoRight – A Do Right Woman – So everyone with a mental disorder MUST NOT HAVE ACCESS TO A GUN. So how does one achieve that? Do we just lock everyone in jail? They can get guns, knives, and even drugs in jail. The new DSM-5 “psychiatry bible” practically classifies every human emotion as a mental disorder in order to justify prescribing drugs and other financially-lucrative “treatments.” Is this the kind of quack science we will apply to the general population regarding the right to own a firearm? And what about all of the military suicides, police shootings of innocents and similar? We seem to have no problems handing a gun to someone so long as they wear a government uniform, yet they are not immune to the ravages of emotions or the horrors of life and the toll it can take on the mind.
Your utopia does not exist, but those who support open access to firearms for their own protection at least are honest about not ever expecting utopia. We cannot insulate ourselves from violence. The points “Violence Abounds” makes about our govenrment are true indeed. We allow those who we elect to set the worst kind of examples for the rest of society (and then turn to them to solve the very problems they have created). How insane are we as a society for that kind of behavior???
RF
December 14th, 2012
8:31 pm
“And that FACT IS that most killers like this present NO SIGNS of mental disturbance UNTIL the commit their crime.”
Even if they do, it’s rarely something you recognize as potentially violent. What bothers me is that so many people, for perfectly legitimate reasons, have multiple guns available in their homes when one would do. Hell one guy having a bad day can turn violent for no apparent reason. I just wish, and that’s all it is- a wish, that we didn’t have such an emotional dependence on something as deadly as a gun. A day like today, as a parent and teacher, is just rough to watch unfold without wishing that.
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
8:31 pm
“Most would do better to have the dogs or martial arts skills”
That brings up something about attack trained dogs that I have thought for a LONG, LONG time. It seems senseless to me to teach such a dog to attack straight at the gun carrier. In Germany, before and during the time of the Nazis (I know, I know!) the dogs were taught to circle behind the gun carrier and attack from the rear.
That makes MUCH more sense to me. If the criminal turns to watch the dog, it gives you the chance to overpower him while he is distracted. And if he DOESN’T watch the dog, YOU can still see it, and when it launches it’s attack you have the chance to fall down or dodge in case the gun goes off.
indigo
December 14th, 2012
8:32 pm
The 2nd ammendment was written when we had NO large professional standing Army, Marine Corps, Navy, Air Force or Coast Guard. At that time, citizen soldiers were the only real defence for our very young Country. So, the “right to keep and bear arms” was meant for the Country’s defence, NOT personal home defence.
If any of you insist on your “right to keep and bear arms” you’ll have to look elsewhere in the Constitution.
If we started, say 30 years ago, allowing only our Military and Police to have guns, imagine how many Americans, men, women and CHILDREN, would still be alive now.
Sleep tight.
DebbieDoRight - A Do Right Woman
December 14th, 2012
8:32 pm
. Most would do better to have the dogs or martial arts skills
Yes the dogs are your “early warning system” since their hearing is much better than yours and can prepare you for the advent of a stranger, etc. in your house.
Having dogs trained to defend you is another “system” that you can have in place for protection of you and your family. While the attacker is trying to fend off the dogs, you can get to your gun; or whatever — the dogs can buy you some time.
Even a SMALL dog, can warn you by barking when something is awry; so that you can prepare, at least partially for whatever is coming.
It’s good to have more than one back up plan — just like that old saying about not keeping all your eggs in one basket.
Debbie out — for real, got hubby on the line.
//drive by//
RF
December 14th, 2012
8:34 pm
I’m out of here for today. Painful day, one teenager out with the buddies and the other one here. Think I’ll go hug the stinker and thank God we’re alright for now. Twenty families won’t get to hug their kids tonight, and that makes my heart heavy and makes me want to do something, even while I know there’s really nothing I can do in the short term. Goodnight all.
Just saying
December 14th, 2012
8:35 pm
RF – If you keep your gun and your bullets “stored separately of course” you do not own a gun for self defense. You own a gun for a theif to steal or one for target practise at the range. Please do not use your poor preparation for self defense as an argument against those who would have approached the inside of the front door with gun in hand, bullet chambered, and safety off (if we had ended up anywhere close to the inside of the door in the first place – cover from a safe shooting position is far safer with verbal responses given through a closed door).
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
8:36 pm
“The 2nd ammendment was written when we had NO large professional standing Army, Marine Corps, Navy, Air Force or Coast Guard. At that time, citizen soldiers were the only real defence for our very young Country
Doesn’t matter. The Constitution places no restrictions that encompass a standing army and such. Of course, I have a different take on it. I think EVERYONE who legally owns a gun should be required to be a member of an official militia. Even if they can’t be a “foot soldier” they can to office work, or maintenance…and attend regular and recorded session on gun use and safty.
RF
December 14th, 2012
8:40 pm
“How insane are we as a society for that kind of behavior???”
Insane enough to actually believe that if more people had guns, the bad guys wouldn’t be able to kill so many. I guess if we follow that logic, it’ll become logical to have every adult at school carrying a sidearm and we’ll eventually be putting in the lunch box instead of an apple. Talk about insanity…
Outta here this time. Have at it folks.
Just saying
December 14th, 2012
8:41 pm
Indigo, maybe you should bother to read the history of countries with only military and police ownership of guns. I would suggest as examples Nazi Germany, communist China and East Germany, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Cambodia, I think you get the picture.
Then I would suggest you do some internet searches on police shootings of innocents, military shootings of innocents, and the like.
Your mentality is what dictators like Hitler and Stalin love to have prevalent in their societies. Our founding fathers (you can read the Anti-Federalist Papers, the Federalist Papers, and the ratification convention documents from the 13 colonies) made it very clear that the second amendment was about providing the citizens the mechanism for overthrowing a tyrranical government, not about hunting, etc. They were also fearful of a standing army and thus did not have one. Again, see my points about totalitarian dictatorships and who is allowed to own guns in those societies.
RF
December 14th, 2012
8:42 pm
“Please do not use your poor preparation for self defense as an argument against those who would have approached the inside of the front door with gun in hand, bullet chambered, and safety off (if we had ended up anywhere close to the inside of the door in the first place – cover from a safe shooting position is far safer with verbal responses given through a closed door).”
How sad a day it is when we think it’s “poor preparation” not to have one loaded in the nightstand. God help us…
bman.
December 14th, 2012
8:42 pm
everything Indigo says is just off the chain. I think he’s a cornball cracker….
Just saying
December 14th, 2012
8:44 pm
RF – It does not take having everyone at the school carry a weapon. It only requires that someone thinking about a mass killing knows that everyone could be carrying a weapon. A better question would be why parents choose to turn over their children to these prisons where hundreds if not thousands of children are crammed into classrooms, herded around like prisoners, drugged into compliance, and made potential victims by insane laws that make these places ripe for mass shootings.
Just saying
December 14th, 2012
8:47 pm
RF – How sad a day it is when we think it’s “poor preparation” not to have one loaded in the nightstand.
And just how is keeping a gun stored separately from the ammunition considered “good preparation?” In a house with no children there are no issues and there are plenty of reliable gun “safes” with pushbutton combination locks that can be secured by the bedside if needed.
Guns are inanimate objects. It takes a person to make them work. Don’t ascribe more to them than they deserve.
God helps those who help themselves.
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
8:47 pm
“RF – It does not take having everyone at the school carry a weapon. It only requires that someone thinking about a mass killing knows that everyone could be carrying a weapon”
Have you ever heard of “suicide by COP”? Knowing it’s possible that someone in the school has a gun could just as easily attract the “suicide by teacher” types that gun-carrying COPS attract.
Just saying
December 14th, 2012
8:50 pm
In the 20th century alone it is estimated by some historians that GOVERNMENTS murdered over 200 million of their own citizens.
And some people think that only government employees like the police and military should have guns. I would imagine of a poll of those 200 million (or their family members) would yield a different opinion.
Aquagirl
December 14th, 2012
8:52 pm
In a house with no children there are no issues
Nancy Lanza might disagree with you on that one. Gee, those guns sure kept her nice and safe until her son shot her in the face with one of them.
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
8:53 pm
“I would imagine of a poll of those 200 million (or their family members) would yield a different opinion”
Because hand guns, rifles, shotguns and even assault weapons are just the ideal weapons against things like airborn bombs, tanks, missiles and chemical weapons. Yep, really useful.
Just saying
December 14th, 2012
8:53 pm
Doggone/GA – and what’s your point regarding suicide by teacher? Person is dead. Nobody promises Utopia except those who honestly believe that we can actually eliminate guns, either by banning them or by only allowing police and the military to have them (as if theft will never happen and police and military are all incapable of murder/mass murder – good luck with that dream).
Mad as hell
December 14th, 2012
8:55 pm
WHO REALLY CARES!
We have a Supreme Court Decision that says “security of a free state” is irrelevant to the individual’s God given right to own any gun with any amount of ammo. Thank you NRA and Antonin Scalia and your fellow toadies on the Court.. That preamble to the second amendment was just jibberish by a bunch of guys with wigs. Great to have those activist judges who know how to rewrite the Constitution to satisfy the NRA.That’s what Judges are for.
Entire Congress, Supreme Court and President bow down to every utterance of the NRA. We the people do not count. Look at other Civilized countries gun control laws and you will see how backward we are. Try a full background check by a police officer or military official to get a gun. Oh that might infringe on those sacred rights?
How many illegal guns did good ole Gawgia put in circulation today with its gun fetish?
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
8:57 pm
“Doggone/GA – and what’s your point regarding suicide by teacher?”
This: “If he knows he MAY face lethal response, that will be a factor”
It MIGHT as easily be a factor for someone looking to die. Just because a teacher, or some teachers, MIGHT have guns on campus is no guarantee that the school will be safe from an attack like today’s
Just saying
December 14th, 2012
8:58 pm
Aquagirl – So secure all loaded guns in the house. Whatever works for you. The point I was trying to make is that if a gun is to be in the house for protection, it most certainly IS poor preparation if you have it stored in a closet somewhere separate from the ammunition and that there are plenty of secure and reliable means of securing a loaded weapon.
Why are ad-hominem arguments pulled out of the weeds the best that most anti-gun types can come up with when discussing guns, gun safety, and the god-given right to defend your own life (against whomever, including your government)?
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 14th, 2012
9:02 pm
Where there are more guns there are more homicides.
We analyzed the relationship between homicide and gun availability using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s. We found that across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 14th, 2012
9:04 pm
OH NOES! NOT THE AD HOMINEM ATTACK CARD!
I’m melting…melting…melting…..
Just saying
December 14th, 2012
9:04 pm
Doggone/GA – True enough. There are no guarantees in life. Want a guarantee of safety and security you picked the wrong incarnation.
But a guarantee of NO guns sends a completely different message than the possibility of some, maybe many guns.
Who would openly put a sign in their front yard that read “GUN FREE ZONE?” Get the point? Insurance doesn’t prevent the fire, it just is a plan to offset potential losses. Smoke detectors don’t prevent fire, just give early warning. The presence of armed citizens doesn’t guarantee anything, but it presents the possibility of an armed response to a hostile action. Much as the presence of armed police does. I would personally rather have well-trained citizens/teachers than to turn the schools into any more of an armed police-state penitentiary than they already are.
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
9:07 pm
“Where there are more guns there are more homicides. ”
All freedoms have their cost. A friend from Europe once asked my why American seem to find it so hard to have what she called “sensible” laws (she wasn’t neccessarily talking about guns) and I said to her: “you” send your misfits, criminals, anti-status quo types here to get rid of them from “your” society…and then expect them to create a country that is conformist? Not likely.
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
9:10 pm
“But a guarantee of NO guns sends a completely different message than the possibility of some, maybe many guns”
yes, it does…and having guns in places like schools makes it just that much easier for a disturbed teacher or student to intiate just such an attack..
Always and forever, we have to balance the risks and the consequences. The killer who attacked those in the theater had no guarantee that there were no guns in the audience…but he attacked anyway.
Antonin Scalia
December 14th, 2012
9:10 pm
“”"”"”"”"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”"”"”"”"”"”"”"
At the request of the NRA, the first part of that amendment is hereby declared obsolete as well as all prior court decisions interpreting it. It shall now read “”The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”"”
You are now free to get a gun wheneever you have that urge to kill someone. Frreedom always trumps security. That’s why you need judges.
Just saying
December 14th, 2012
9:11 pm
Doggone/GA – regarding your atom bomb, tanks, etc. comment (again with the smart aleck responses). The vast majority of those 200 million were not killed by any weapons of mass destruction. That 200 million figure does not count the numbers killed in the World Wars by other nations or in the dozens if not hundreds of wars fought in the 20th century. Those are just people murdered by their OWN government. For sure that was mostly using just guns, knives, and other smaller weapons (though certainly some bombs, etc. were used in some cases). I know, it is a truly shocking statistic.
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
9:12 pm
“At the request of the NRA, the first part of that amendment is hereby declared obsolete as well as all prior court decisions interpreting it. It shall now read “”The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”””
Well, they are 2 separate thoughts. Related, but separate. And there’s nothing in that to indicate that the right to bear arms should be universal and unregulated.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 14th, 2012
9:12 pm
Doggone, I have to disagree. Freedoms have limits. We can have common sense gun laws and make efforts to address this repeated violence
Aquagirl
December 14th, 2012
9:14 pm
Why are ad-hominem arguments pulled out of the weeds
Maybe it’s because we keep hearing “guns don’t kill people, people kill people.”
Why are unrealistic sombuddys-gunna-rape-MAH-WIFE arguments pulled out of the weeds the best that gun huggers can come up with? Nobody buys a gun thinking “this is a great model, I won’t feel a thing when my wife shoots me to death 5 years from now while we argue over a credit card bill?” Everyone is utterly convinced their gun will save them from rapists, evil government, Viking marauders, and the heartbreak of psoriasis–which are all lurking around the corner right this second. Nobody thinks their grandchild will shoot another kid in the head while playing with a gun. Yet it somehow happens.
I’m sick and tired of everyone claiming they’re not within 10 million miles of being “that guy.” It’s like those blogs about kids acting up in restaurants…suddenly every poster is a concerned parent and oh no, their kids don’t bother other people.
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
9:17 pm
“Those are just people murdered by their OWN government”
And governments have weapons that even the most well-armed citizen won’t have. There was a bank robbery several years ago by 2 robbers garbed in high-tech body armor, who carried high-powered rifles. The videos of it show up on TV now and than. The cops that were called to the scene were pretty much powerless to stop them because, by law, the guns the cops had did not have the range of the robbers weapons.
So that is an example of the opposite of what you say, but the same situation. Citizens with even assault weapons are not going to be able to mount an effective defense agains a government determined to attack them. They simple won’t have the fire power.
Why do you think the Syrian and Libyan rebels made such concerted efforts to capture army bases or weapons stores in their respective countries?
td
December 14th, 2012
9:18 pm
How did I know the leftest would turn this story into “git rid of all guns”.
Well you all just need to get over it because it is NOT going to happen. The is a pesky little Constitutional Amendment that says the people have the right to keep and bear arms. If you do a little historical research the reason for this amendment by our founding fathers was to scare the government so that they did not think they had the power and authority but rather the people did.
If you want these kind of insane mass murder sprees to not happen in the future then you all need to figure out a way to control the crazy people not take the guns away from all the sane people.
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
9:19 pm
“We can have common sense gun laws and make efforts to address this repeated violence”
Yes, we can…but we still can’t stop this sort of violence. My best guess, pending additional info, is that the secondary crime site – the house with the dead body…was due to the killer eliminating the ONE person who might have been able to sound the alarm in advance.
NRA.........If Not Today, When?
December 14th, 2012
9:19 pm
On the NRA website it says. “The primary goal of the NRA would be to “promote and encourage rifle shooting on a scientific basis.”
It also says, “NRA the premier firearms education organization in the world.”
MALARKEY
NRA.........If Not Today, When?
December 14th, 2012
9:22 pm
@Just saying
December 14th, 2012
8:47 pm
RF – How sad a day it is when we think it’s “poor preparation” not to have one loaded in the nightstand.
“God helps those who help themselves.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
TELL THAT TO THE 20 BABIES THAT DIED TODAY.
I HOPE YOU SLEEP WELL TONIGHT.
NEXT TIME IT MIGHT BE YOUR BABY OR MINE.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 14th, 2012
9:23 pm
Once again the idiot NRA mantra of “they want to get rid of all our guns”. Garbage. Common sense gun laws do not mean getting rid of all guns. Apparently you cannot deal with reality of the discussion.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 14th, 2012
9:24 pm
How did I know the leftest would turn this story into “git rid of all guns”.
Strawman.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 14th, 2012
9:28 pm
Doggone, you’re right. We’ll never be able to stop all violence nor end all mass murders. But we can take steps to try to reduce the violence.
Aquagirl
December 14th, 2012
9:28 pm
Strawman
A strawman that will soon be rich…watch guns start flying off the shelves tomorrow.
Just saying
December 14th, 2012
9:29 pm
Doggone/GA – We have a large government monopoly on education. For most folks the restriction of the market has afforded most very few options outside of the single-size fits all government option. Laws are passed that dictate gun restrictions for every school with parents having little choice and few options in the market to provide statistical evidence to support one side or other of the argument. We cannot compare thousands of schools with varying levels of gun presence to see which method is superior, nor does a parent have a choice to send their child to a school with alternative protection options in place. For most, the presence of numerous armed government employees in uniform is the only option they are allowed, along with metal detectors, drug sniffing dogs, mandatory Rittalin for the creative and non-conformist types, etc.
There are no guarantees in life. You have a person belief about what you would choose. Thanks to government’s monopoly on education, their taking of money from everyone to support their system of schools, etc. the majority will not be afforded the opportunity to explore their personal choices. Much of our societal conflict centers on the fact that we are denied choice and options because government has made all of the decisions for us and taken away our freedom and our liberty.
We have a second amendment to guarantee we will have the right to defend ourselves even from our government. We have a right to life and liberty, and our right to self defense is implicit in those rights.
Our schools have become shooting galleries for crazies for many reasons, one of which is that everyone is unarmed. Psychoactive drugs and a conformist system that destroys the individual are some others. Nobody will want to find out the truth about this shooting because it will implicate the system and those kind of issues cannot be raised in our controlled society.
Freedom is the highest aspiration of man. It cannot be obtained or secured by slaves or by victims. Guns are an equalizer as much as they are a curse. Guns delivered us to freedom from the oppressive government of King George. Far too much power is given to these inanimate objects by those who fear them. It is clearly people we should be afraid of, not guns.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 14th, 2012
9:29 pm
Apparently you cannot deal with reality of the discussion.
Keep
Just drop the last three words of that sentence.
It’ll cover all future posts.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 14th, 2012
9:31 pm
Aquagirl
Not just guns.
Ammo cases are already being emptied.
bman.
December 14th, 2012
9:32 pm
Kam .. .. do you own a gun?
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
9:33 pm
“Doggone, you’re right. We’ll never be able to stop all violence nor end all mass murders. But we can take steps to try to reduce the violence”
Like what? What can we do to reduce the violence from people who have no criminal record, who present no obvious signs of mental disturbance UNTIL they commit a crime? If even a psychiatrists says we CANNOT identify them in advance, what can be done?
It’s not enough to say “we can do something” without concrete examples of WHAT we can do.
Just saying
December 14th, 2012
9:33 pm
NRA………If Not Today, When? – Sorry, just don’t get your point. Was there one? I certainly don’t condone any killing, just self defense. I have read it multiple times now, still don’t see a point there.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 14th, 2012
9:35 pm
Kam, you’re absolutely right.
I had a family member on the campus of VA Tech during that horror. Today a good friend lost a relative in Newtown.
And then there is this:
Hours after the terrible shooting in a Newtown, Connecticut elementary school, the Michigan House Republicans demanded that Governor Rick Snyder (R) sign a bill that would make it easier for people to receive a gun permit and open up ‘gun free zones,’ including schools
td
December 14th, 2012
9:35 pm
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 14th, 2012
9:23 pm
Once again the idiot NRA mantra of “they want to get rid of all our guns”. Garbage. Common sense gun laws do not mean getting rid of all guns. Apparently you cannot deal with reality of the discussion.
This dirt bag stole the guns from his mother and then shot her in the face before he went to the school she worked at and killed the children in her classroom. What damn discussion point about reasonable gun control is going to stop this? NONE. All these points about outlawing one gun or the other gun or background checks or waiting periods are meaningless to these facts and would not done a thing to stop this guy at all.
Aquagirl
December 14th, 2012
9:38 pm
It’s not enough to say “we can do something” without concrete examples of WHAT we can do.
Stop participating in the insane dry-humping gun culture would be a nice start. (I’m not saying you do this personally.) I’ve pointed out upthread that there’s a whole lot of irrational risk assessment going on. Actually there’s a whole lot of irrationality period.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 14th, 2012
9:38 pm
Doggone, here are some proposals: http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation
Microstamping
background checks
No large ammo mags
Just saying
December 14th, 2012
9:40 pm
Doggone/GA – And the fact that governments have enormous firepower is a reason to allow ourselves to be disarmed? What is the point you are making. The first thing Hitler did when he came to power was to pass the gun control act of 1939 (the model of the US gun control act of 1968 by the way). That effectively disarmed all german citizens. You know the rest. Same with every dictator. Saddam Huissein allowed fully automatic weapons to be owned by the citizens of Iraq. The first thing the US did while promoting “freedom” in their country after destroying it was to seize all the guns.
Sorry, I’ll take my chances with whatever they legally let me have (which I think should be basically everything they have).
Just saying
December 14th, 2012
9:42 pm
Criminals don’t obey the law. An obvious fact that always seems to get ignored in cases like this.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 14th, 2012
9:43 pm
Oh great, now we are back to Hitler and the “Red Dawn” brigade.
td
December 14th, 2012
9:43 pm
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 14th, 2012
9:38 pm
Doggone, here are some proposals: http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation
Microstamping
background checks
No large ammo mags
And how are any of the above steps going to stop what happened today?
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
9:44 pm
“And the fact that governments have enormous firepower is a reason to allow ourselves to be disarmed?”
I can’t defend that statement. I never made it and I never thought of it. You have most definitely NOT been paying attention if you think I’m defending allowing ourselves to be disarmed. All I’m saying is that it’s a poor reason to defend being armed.
Basically, though, my attitude is that for law-abiding citizens it’s none of my business WHY they want to own guns.
NRA.........If Not Today, When?
December 14th, 2012
9:45 pm
@Just saying
December 14th, 2012
9:33 pm
NRA………If Not Today, When? – Sorry, just don’t get your point. Was there one? I certainly don’t condone any killing, just self defense. I have read it multiple times now, still don’t see a point there.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“God helps those who help themselves.”
Did GOD help the SHOOTER TODAY?
THE WORST MASS SHOOTINGS IN THE PAST 50 YEARS
HAPPENED IN THE UNITED STATED.
THE WORST MASS SHOOTINGS IN THE PAST 50 YEARS
WERE DONE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
THE WORST MASS SHOOTINGS IN THE PAST 50 YEARS
HAPPENED IN THE UNITED STATED.
THE WORST MASS SHOOTINGS IN THE PAST 50 YEARS
WERE DONE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
THE WORST MASS SHOOTINGS IN THE PAST 50 YEARS
HAPPENED IN THE UNITED STATED.
THE WORST MASS SHOOTINGS IN THE PAST 50 YEARS
WERE DONE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
THE WORST MASS SHOOTINGS IN THE PAST 50 YEARS
HAPPENED IN THE UNITED STATED.
THE WORST MASS SHOOTINGS IN THE PAST 50 YEARS
WERE DONE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 14th, 2012
9:46 pm
Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^An example of a Hitler filled rant.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
9:46 pm
“And how are any of the above steps going to stop what happened today?”
Why are you asking me that? I’ve already answered it several times.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 14th, 2012
9:47 pm
Why have the bible? People break commandments.
NRA.........If Not Today, When?
December 14th, 2012
9:50 pm
WHAT MASS MURDER TO YOU WANT FOR US TO SAY
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.
HOW MANY MORE BABIES HAVE TO DIE?
SOMETHING MUST BE DONE BEFORE ANOTHER
BABY IS KILLED.
TO SOME OF YOU 20 MURDERED CHILDREN WAS NOT ENOUGH.
DOES IT TAKE 200?
2000?
20,000?
WHAT IT IS GOING TO TAKE IS WHEN ITS YOUR CHILD.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 14th, 2012
9:52 pm
td, I could expend hours trying to explain it to you but you apparently have no ability to comprehend or understand these things on your own. Now I gave you the link so why don’t you be a good little troll and go spend some time reading and educating yourself so you are not so ignorant. There are explanations. How many blogs do you have to be told to be responsible and educate yourself rather than demanding other spoon feed you.
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2012
9:53 pm
“SOMETHING MUST BE DONE BEFORE ANOTHER”
Someone should do something, right? WHAT should they do? Ranting doesn’t solve anything…all it does is lead people to wonder if YOU will be the next one to start firing off randomly.