The biggest scandal in 50 years, right before your eyes
If you start naming the biggest political scandals of the past 50 years, Watergate and Bill Clinton’s “I did not have sex with that woman” mistake would have to be included. So would Ronald Reagan’s decision to secretly trade arms for hostages, along with the mass deception and self-deception perpetrated by the Bush administration to get us into Iraq.
However, while presidents Nixon and Clinton were led astray by their weakness for power and sex, neither consciously put the security of the country at risk. Reagan made a serious mistake, but he was at least motivated by sincere concern for the lives of U.S. hostages. The invasion of Iraq is a closer call, but even there, President Bush and his administration weren’t consciously choosing to do damage to our country.
By that standard, the most disturbing political scandal of the past half century is playing out today before our very eyes, to too little notice or comprehension. Marc Thiessen, a former speechwriter for George W. Bush and Donald Rumsfeld and now a columnist for the Washington Post, lays the plot out there for everyone to see:
“Today, Obama is perfectly willing to go over the fiscal cliff and blame the GOP for the resulting tax increases on the middle class. But when it comes to the debt limit, he does not have that luxury. He can’t default on our debt — the consequences are too catastrophic. So in the end he will cave.
Indeed, he would have caved during the last debt-limit stand-off, in the summer of 2011. According to Bob Woodward, when Obama told his advisers he intended to veto the debt-limit bill the Republican-controlled House had passed, Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner told him he couldn’t — that if Republicans didn’t give in, he had no choice but to sign their bill. “You can’t veto,” Geithner reportedly told Obama, because the consequences “would be indelible, incurable. It would last for generations.”
Republicans had Obama cornered and didn’t know it — so they let him off the hook. When the next debt-limit increase comes in February, they will know better. The president’s current negotiating leverage dissipates as soon as we go over the fiscal cliff. Come February, the tables will be turned — and Republicans will hold all the cards in the debt-limit negotiations.”
If I may, I would like to offer a pithier but still entirely accurate version of Thiessen’s advice to Republicans*:
That fool Obama cares too much about what happens to this country and its people. That is his fatal weakness. You, on the other hand, don’t care about “catastrophic” consequences that would be “indelible, incurable” and “last for generations.” Your amorality is your strength. Use it to demand what you want, or else.
Maybe it’s just me, but I find the whole idea extraordinary. Since when is the willingness to inflict “indelible, incurable” damage on our country something to be bragged about and used as leverage? Since when is it OK for a major political party to hold a gun to the country’s head, figuratively speaking of course? Has patriotism become so diluted by cynicism that such strategies can now be publicly embraced and advocated?
And of course, it’s not just some former speechwriter advocating this strategy. This is the course that the Washington Republican establishment seems ready to adopt. As Sen. Lindsey Graham told Fox Monday, “In February or March you have to raise the debt ceiling. And I can tell you this, there is a hardening on the Republican side. We’re not going to raise the debt ceiling.”
You’re not? What’s next? “We won’t pay the troops, even if it leaves the nation defenseless, unless you surrender to us on the budget?” How would that be substantively different?
Of course, Republicans have talked themselves into believing that this is all justified. They are so absolutely certain that they are correct about the budget that they are willing to knock the United States to its knees to get their way. It requires an enormous amount of self-righteousness and grandiosity to think that way, but they seem up to the task.
Somehow, it doesn’t seem to have crossed their minds that the U.S. Constitution offers an alternative means of resolving such disputes. It’s called free and open debate. It’s called elections. We just had one, focused largely on the issues at stake here; they spent well over $1 billion trying to sell their viewpoint, and they lost.
Now, having failed to convince the rest of their country of their wisdom, they believe that their desperation gives them the right to impose it under threat of grievous harm?
That isn’t leadership. That isn’t patriotism. It is the act of a petulant, frustrated three-year-old threatening to hold his breath until the country turns blue.
Which, now that I think about it, it may very well do.
– Jay Bookman
* A more risque, profane and metaphorical version of the strategy is available here.
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762 comments Add your comment
josef
December 11th, 2012
4:13 pm
SCOOTTER
When Greenwood LeFlore was speak of the Mississippi House, two of the legislators got into it, one smart ass orating in Greek, the other in Latin. LeFlore took the podium and addressed their diatribes in Choctaw, point by point. When Sam Houston would get frustrated by the verbal gobble-de-gook and pompous orations in the Texas Republic’s legislature, he would address them in Cherokee.
cloudodust
December 11th, 2012
4:14 pm
The United States is getting, ‘Knocked to it’s knees.’ by social spending programs. We need the successful, er, rich folks to pony up, be patriotic and pay their fair share. Anyone not on goverment handouts will probably be considered successful by the year 2017 so I reckon those of us still working will be paying the new Patriotic Tax by then…
oops
December 11th, 2012
4:15 pm
is Jay still passed out on his fainting couch?
skipper
December 11th, 2012
4:16 pm
There certainly should not be a REQUIREMENT that somebody should have to join a union to go to work…..if they want to, fine, if not, ditto. If we are a “free” country (and yes, organized labor started off as a decent thing) workers should be able to decide. I have listned to tons of views on thie blog. Me and Bro disagree alot but I know Bro is a good person who believes his views and likes to back them up. So here is mine: unions have to a very large extenet morphed into a bigger monster than they were supposed to be. Now, to cut to the quick, folks want tons of $ to turn 1 wrench, more days off than there are in a year, more sick days, etc. It is tough to fire a no-good worker. Sometimes, folks just want a job. Being forced into a union to work at a place just ain’t right…….
They BOTH suck
December 11th, 2012
4:16 pm
Doom
Waiting for the exact response, because you use it all the time.
It has been a mixed bag, so the right wing talking points (that you like to use) about Democratic Congresses are not exactly factual. You were just wrong….. TODAY, about Reagan’s terms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidents_and_control_of_congress
Mama Says
December 11th, 2012
4:17 pm
Jay,
This is a battle between two wrongs and you should be able to see that.
The fact that any president would basically threaten to default on our debt and thereby ruin our country, especially financially, in order to get something he wants is a pretty bad thing. I do agree that the fact republicans would use this problem for anything but a well balanced approach to debt reduction is also be a problem, But the problems are the same. One party thinks they have all the answers to an issue that both parties have created over 50 years.
However the bigger problem is that you as a “news guy” or media guy would take sides. You should be giving us ALL the facts not just the ones that are in the democrats favor.
Why not explain to us why Obama extended these “George Bush” tax cuts if they were so bad that now he would ruin the country to reinstate them.
Tell us why I and millions of middle class tax payers got a lower tax rate under Bush and then again under Obama yet the “fair” thing to do is increase taxes on someone else.
Tell us why the simple logic of spending what you have rather than taxing more is a bad thing.
Tell us why went taxes are lower government revenue increases as it did under many presidents during hard economic times. (Including Obamas in his first term).
Give us the contributions made to democrats and republicans on e dry issue rather then the contributions of rich folks who support republicans.
Tell us why Obama was so interested to have us covered under his medical bill yet he exempted many unions and special interest who supported him with political contributions.
And yes continue to slam republicans, but do so with facts that are not slanted.
Until the media starts reporting from the middle instead of from the left or right the entire country will be ripe for lies and manipulation.
We in the citizenry do not have the power collectively that one media outlet does. All this crap would change if our media weren’t simply partisan mouth pieces spouting the party lines.
Until the media cleans its own act up you and all the others will simply continue to look like a child complaining to his mother that the other hit him.
The transportation bill failed in Atlanta for one very important reason, we don’t trust the government to do what it says. As a conservative I can easily tell you that the distrust falls against both sides, as a citizen I can tell you that if the media were controlling the transportation issue it would have failed for the same reason, a lack of trust in the media.
skipper
December 11th, 2012
4:17 pm
(sorry about all the typos….got eyes checked today…still dilated.lol!)
Brosephus™
December 11th, 2012
4:19 pm
Your chart doesn’t show which party was in control of Congress during those years.
That’s easy to google.
http://www.dflorig.com/partycontrol.htm
That shows through 2009. Both parties are at fault. You try to divert to claim a “balanced budget”, yet you still don’t acknowledge that spending increased each year. It’s hard to debate with someone who refuses to acknowlege when they’re wrong. You should really check your pride as admitting when you’re wrong doesn’t make you less of a man. It actually makes your more of a man as a real man will admit when they’re wrong.
Both parties have spent us into this mess, and it will take the opposite of what got us into this mess to get us out. It will take spending cuts, tax increases, AND increases in the number of long-term employement opportunities here in America. More people working means more tax receipts and less borrowing. More people working with decent income means less who have to depend on welfare and such. We don’t have a spending or revenue problem nearly as much as we have an employment problem.
skipper
December 11th, 2012
4:21 pm
@Mamma Says.
You just made my case…..I have been begging for a new “Common-Sense” party…..dems are too left and repubs are too right. Nobody has walking around sense. the only third parties out there are the loonies……….what about a legitimate party withe frickin’ common horse sense???????
Tom Middleton
December 11th, 2012
4:21 pm
Doom@3:51pm
Well if you help others as part of your paying job, Doom, and you also had the GI Bill and didn’t just work your way through like you said, then why are you so politically resentful of government helping those with no where else to turn?
There’s an enormous dichotomy in the Republican Party these days, just as there is in you, Doom. For instance, Republicans, want everyone, except rich kids, to get jobs and pay for everything, but they are the absolute pits are creating them for people to go out get.
Maybe you just need to do a little work on yourself, catch up, and become part of the big picture with the Dems, unless, of course, I was right and you really don’t like minorities, in spite of everything you say.
I mean, whatever happened to your telling everyone you were going to change? Quite frankly, my friend, I just don’t see it and haven’t ever since you said it!
josef
December 11th, 2012
4:22 pm
MAMA
“However the bigger problem is that you as a “news guy” or media guy would take sides. You should be giving us ALL the facts not just the ones that are in the democrats favor.”
One mo’ time, Maybelle, Jay is an opinion writer and a statedly partisan one…he’s just doing his job for which he is (handsomely) paid…
oops
December 11th, 2012
4:24 pm
Jay laughs haughtily at the fiscal cliff
but hits the fainting couch for the debt ceiling
Brosephus™
December 11th, 2012
4:26 pm
skipper: Me and Bro disagree alot but I know Bro is a good person who believes his views and likes to back them up. So here is mine: unions have to a very large extenet morphed into a bigger monster than they were supposed to be.
I’ll agree to an extent with you on the union morphing thing. Some have gone way overboard with their demands. You’ll never hear me deny that. However, more has been done to demonize ALL unions because of the actions of some. It’s the same way with demonizing all CEOs for the actions of some.
One thing I’d suggest is that people actually educate themselves on the truth while forming their opinions. People are under the guise that workers are forced into joining unions, and that just ain’t true, regardless to what the talking heads, pundits, and politicians tell you. The most that can be done to someone working in a union job that doesn’t join the union is that they pay fees to cover the bargaining that the union does.
Think of it this way, you negotiate a deal with the Falcons to sell t-shirts outside the stadium all by yourself. Once the negotiations are done, there are 5 more vendors who want to come in and reap the benefits of your deal. Is it right that they benefit without putting in the work to negotiate that deal?
Thulsa Doom
December 11th, 2012
4:26 pm
They both suck,
Exactly what am I wrong about- particularly in regards to Reagan? He never controlled the house and controlled did not control the senate all of the time either.
RB from Gwinnett
December 11th, 2012
4:28 pm
Doom, Willie, and Ben, one thing the R’s need to figure out is how to park 3/4th of our brain and run a campaign based on emotions instead of issues and facts. It should be pretty clear facts don’t matter so we’ve got to figure out how to appeal to voters feminine side or we’re going to contiue to struggle.
Joe Hussein Mama
December 11th, 2012
4:28 pm
B. Shockley — “I’m a Dem, dude, ‘cause I went through school on the GI Bill.”
“And it’s the Dems who want to de-fund the military. Libs are always good for a laugh at least….”
The Department of Defense doesn’t fund the GI Bill or College Fund. That comes from the Department of Veterans’ Affairs. Which, by the way, the *Republicans* want to defund.
Cons are always good for a laugh.
nobodyyouknow
December 11th, 2012
4:30 pm
J. Hussane Moma? I know Jay is an opinion Columnist. I’m an opinion writer, just not in the newspaper. AND THATS MY DAMN OPINION!
Joe Hussein Mama
December 11th, 2012
4:30 pm
RB — “one thing the R’s need to figure out is how to park 3/4th of our brain and run a campaign based on emotions instead of issues and facts. It should be pretty clear facts don’t matter so we’ve got to figure out how to appeal to voters feminine side or we’re going to contiue to struggle.”
You already did. Remember 2004?
John sKerry?
Mama Says
December 11th, 2012
4:31 pm
josef,
Yes you are correct. Doing what is paid to do, disinformation.
Yet he carries the banner of the AJC, a major media outlet.
Isn’t that like paying a prostitute to tell you the bad side of the sex industry ?
They BOTH suck
December 11th, 2012
4:31 pm
Thulsa
Did you or did you not say that you beleived Reagan operated under a Democratic controlled Congress? Yes you did and except for two years you were wrong. His 1st 6 yrs, he had a Republican Senate. That is history and not new.
If you are giving Reagan a pass for Repubs not having control of the House then you surely are doing the same for Obama at this time, right?
Again, both parties are at fault, however you come across as making excuses for Republicans. At least that is how I read it, but I could be wrong.
Joe Hussein Mama
December 11th, 2012
4:32 pm
nobodyyouknow — “J. Hussane Moma? I know Jay is an opinion Columnist.”
Good. Then you already know you don’t need to rant any longer about how Jay’s not being ‘balanced’ or ‘even-handed’ in his opinion columns.
Thulsa Doom
December 11th, 2012
4:34 pm
“.. then why are you so politically resentful of government helping those with no where else to turn?”
ially
Tom,
As I said I’m not opposed to the govt helping people out, especially those that are temporarily in need and down on their luck. I am opposed to govt created dependency and govt involvement in things govt should have no business being involved in. And if it makes you feel better that includes corporate subsidies such as farm subsidies, tax breaks for the rich that they don’t need, etc.
They BOTH suck
December 11th, 2012
4:34 pm
Mama Says
Doesn’t Wingfield carry that same “banner”?
Isn’t Wingfield a right leaning Op Ed writer while Bookman is a left leaning Op Ed writer?
Doesn’t the AJC run both of these writers on a regular if not daily basis as well as nationally syndicated right and left leaning Op Ed writers?
Please correct me if anything I have stated is incorrect. Thanks
Erwin's cat
December 11th, 2012
4:34 pm
http://www.nrtw.org/a/a_1_p.htm
Bro – I was one of the less informed on this RTW stuff. I had always believed there were instances in union shops, that if you wanted to work there you had to join the union.
I still would rather be in a RTW state, but in all transparency…I’m middle management so i’m not directly affected or at least somewhat shielded
josef
December 11th, 2012
4:35 pm
MAMA
Oh, I wouldn’t go so far as to call it disinformation, but on this one, you’ve got a point…
“Isn’t that like paying a prostitute to tell you the bad side of the sex industry ?”
pogo
December 11th, 2012
4:35 pm
By stating “our president” josef are you confirming (just as getasniff implies daily) that Obama is in fact not the president of the rest of us (about 49%) who totally disagree with him? Kind of looks that way man. But that is OK. He is not our president as his beliefs are fundamentally different from our own. He is what he is and the impact to our country of his belief system will be very apparent soon.
Another interesting dynamic of this blog. The many liberals here are constantly telling the “cons” to get over it and get out of the way because the country spoke in the last election. Judging from this, it seems they are advocating a one party system with total control of the government.. Sound familiar? China, North Korea, Venezuela and umpteen numbers of African countries come to mind. Yea, yea, “socialist smocialist” but the reality is this country is now changing into a population of people who depend solely upon the governement for everything and that simply is not possible and have the country survive.
Mama Says
December 11th, 2012
4:37 pm
Just a little myth busting for you that wish to say the unions are not forcing you to do anything.
My son is trying to get on with one of the major railroad companies, part of the hiring steps is signing a paper that acknowledges that you will contribute 90 bucks a month to union dues.
Sounds like a condition of employment to me
TaxPayer
December 11th, 2012
4:38 pm
Another major conservative donor, Sheldon Adelson, seemed less fazed by the GOP’s struggles. After spending nearly $150 million on Republicans in the 2012 election, he vowed to “double” his donations in the next round of election showdowns.
Ole Sheldon is willing to pay twice as much for his ho ho’s next election.
josef
December 11th, 2012
4:38 pm
BOTH
Yeah, and them other columnists’ blogs ain’t near as much fun as Big Daddy’s verandah…
Thulsa Doom
December 11th, 2012
4:42 pm
“You try to divert to claim a “balanced budget”, yet you still don’t acknowledge that spending increased each year”
Bro,
Are you trying to argue a claim that I never made about spending?
Brosephus™
December 11th, 2012
4:43 pm
EC
I have no problem with either way. My problem is the deliberate subterfuge used to disguise the intent. Nobody’s forced to join unions anymore, even in states without RTW laws.
Personally, I pay union dues for two reasons:
#1 I don’t believe in gaining benefit from someone else without me paying at least a token in return for the benefits I get.
#2 I’ve seen enough personnel issues on my job that it doesn’t hurt to have the ablilty to call upon well versed representation if I ever need it.
Granted, the union that represents us is equivalent to using a Shih Tzu as a guard dog. They can’t bargain for benefits or pay, and we can’t strike or slow down. However, their bargaining ensures that I have a shot at getting vacation time to spend with my family when we want to take a vacation as opposed to being stuck with having to take time when my wife can’t get off work and my child is in school.
Mama Says
December 11th, 2012
4:44 pm
They both Suck,
If you trying to point out that a major media outlet is paying people to express their bias opinions yes you are right.
If you wish to read my post again I said that the media needs to REPORT from a middle position.
In effect you just argued the problem and by the way what anyone from FOX would say. The fact that you have two sides opining does nothing to solve the issue.
If the media wishes to be known as a source of hard factual news it should not be in the opinion business, either way
TaxPayer
December 11th, 2012
4:44 pm
“Conservatism is a racket for a lot of people to get very, very rich,” declares Joe Scarborough on MSNBC. “With no thought of winning elections.”
“It may be that major parts of American conservatism have become such a racket that a kind of refounding of the movement as a cause is necessary,” says William Kristol, editor of The Weekly Standard.
We already know what Republicans do for a “living” and now we know that Sheldon is willing to pay twice as much for them to put out. The Koch boys are gonna have to up the ante as well if they want a piece of that action.
josef
December 11th, 2012
4:44 pm
pogo
Not sure what exactly you are referring to when you say me saying “our President.” But. he is that, whether we like it or not. Am I some huge fan of his? Not at all. But he is still the President of the United States of America, the geo-political unit of which I am a almost full and equal citizen, so, yes…he is MY president…
Mama Says
December 11th, 2012
4:47 pm
josef,
As a conservative I could not bring myself to type that.
Thulsa Doom
December 11th, 2012
4:48 pm
“Did you or did you not say that you beleived Reagan operated under a Democratic controlled Congress?”
Yes but that I wasn’t sure. I knew he never had control of the House and I knew for at least part of his 2 terms he did not have either house of Congress. He did not have control of Congress at any point in time TBS since he never had the house. He only had the senate for 3/4 of his time there.
“If you are giving Reagan a pass for Repubs not having control of the House then you surely are doing the same for Obama at this time, right?”
Am I hallucinating sir or did Obama not have control of both houses of Congress for his first 2 years and control of the Senate all 4 years? Having total control of both chambers including a near filibuster proof senate for 2 years is a lot more than Reagan ever had.
Brosephus™
December 11th, 2012
4:52 pm
Mama Says
Read the link that Erwin’s Cat posted. Within that link, you’ll find the Supreme Court cases that affirms that your son does not have to join the union. If he’s not in a right-to-work state, he may have to pay fees to cover the cost of the bargaining, but his “dues” does not make him a union member if he does not expressly sign up to join the union. Tell him to look at the total cost of union dues vs what they’re saying he will contribute. The two are probably not the same amount.
————————-
Are you trying to argue a claim that I never made about spending?
No, I was responding to your deflection after you made the snarky comment about the current Dems being the party of spending. Here’s the exchange if it will refresh your memory…
Thulsa Doom
December 11th, 2012
3:34 pm
The current DEM party, however, is like a crack fiend, with their crack being spending.
————————
Brosephus™
December 11th, 2012
3:49 pm
Here’s a chart that shows outlays each year since 1940. Care to point out where Republicans cut spending from the previous year if the Dems are the party of spending?
————————-
Thulsa Doom
December 11th, 2012
4:03 pm
Brocephus,
Your chart doesn’t show which party was in control of Congress during those years. Also when we had a balanced budget as Clinton left office it was because the Republicans under Gingrich brought Clinton to the table screaming and kicking to balance the budget.
To your credit, which I’ll give you partial credit for, you do mention Republican spending in the 2000s. To your discredit, and hence my deflection post, you never own up to the spending from the 80s or 90s. I gave you a link that showed spending, and regardless to whether the budget was balanced or not, spending has increased every year. That means that both parties have increased spending year over year.
They BOTH suck
December 11th, 2012
4:52 pm
Mama Says
Op Eds are not new. I have read where both Kyle and Jay have mentioned to bloggers that they are opinion writers. Neither one is hiding that. Why should they? That is why they were hired.
The AJC also has news articles that are not Op Eds. Pretty much every paper has a similar format.
If you like, why don’t you pick an AJC non editorial article and slice and dice it for its “liberal bias” or whatever bias you think it has. Present the article, tell us the bias and what it should say to be more “fair and balanced”.
Not sure why you have an issue with Bookman but didn’t say a word about the right leaning writers employed directly or indirectly by Cox Enterprises.
Dollameisha
December 11th, 2012
4:52 pm
Beg to differ on your biggest scandal in 50 years, Jay. Nothing comes close to Ford pardoning Nixon for his involvement in Watergate.
That one foolish act forever instilled the concept that if you’re powerful and well connected enough you can get away with anything.
Thulsa Doom
December 11th, 2012
4:52 pm
“Granted, the union that represents us is equivalent to using a Shih Tzu as a guard dog”
I resent that. My new pup is a Shih Tzu mix and he’s as feisty as they get. And as a guard dog he can bark real, real loud when he hears something late at night.
josef
December 11th, 2012
4:54 pm
MAMA
Which, if I may be so bold as to say so, is perhaps the biggest single problem facing the country today. It is reminscent of the 1850s, and we know what that led to. I don’t like the current governor of Georgia very much myself, but his is “our/my” state Chief Executive…
They BOTH suck
December 11th, 2012
4:57 pm
Thulsa
Thanks again for the excuses. I showed the chart of a mixed bag of control in terms of Congress and said that your theory of Repub President and smalll government holds as much water as a paper bag.
The facts are what they are. Republicans have not been any better on spending, although they talk a great game. You can spin until your heart is content. Say “BOOM” a million times, but it will not change that it is a two way street with your “small government” Republicans being just as culpable as the Democrats in terms of government growth, spending……….. you name it.
They BOTH suck
December 11th, 2012
4:58 pm
Check back later
peace
Thusla: I hope that tube top with the AJC logo that Jay is sending you is a good fit
Thulsa Doom
December 11th, 2012
5:02 pm
“To your discredit, and hence my deflection post, you never own up to the spending from the 80s or 90s.”
Then perhaps I had you and TBS confused since I was posting to tbs on the same spending issues. In the 80s Reagan spent a significant amount on the military buildup which brought the USSR to dissolution so I did indeed acknowledge his spending. And as I mentioned either to you or to tbs Reagan had stated after leaving office that his big regret in agreeing with the Dems to go with tax increases was that he believed the Dems when they said they would go along with reduced spending. He said he fell for it twice. The tax increases took place. The reduced spending by the Dem controlled house did not. So while both parties are still responsible that one goes mostly on the Dems.
I didn’t bring up the 90s because Newt and the Rs brought Clinton to the table to force a balanced budget but the Rs didn’t take over the house till 94. What more is there to talk about? You guys love to tout the Clinton budgets but forget that the R Congress had a big hand in balancing the budget at the end of Clinton’s term.
nobodyyouknow
December 11th, 2012
5:02 pm
Joe Huss. Moma. I’ll rant as much as I can rant when I get p—st off about this great country and the mess the politicians have gotten it in. I’m wondering if you are really Jay in disguise anyway. You have feces for brains. You might blow your nose a little harder and get it out.
TaxPayer
December 11th, 2012
5:03 pm
When Boehner refused to take a July 2011 phone call from Obama to discuss the debt-ceiling crisis, pundits everywhere were stunned. When the House speaker then waited an audacious 24 hours to return the call, the nation as a whole was dumbfounded. What could possibly be more important than returning a phone call from the leader of the free world? Guess we’ll never know.
Boehner who.
Tom Middleton
December 11th, 2012
5:05 pm
Doom@4:34pm: I am opposed to govt created dependency and govt involvement in things govt should have no business being involved in.
Do you have some specifics, Doom? Who are you willing to put (or leave) out in society with no one to willing to help them at all? And please, please tell us how you think we should address the problem, since it is (or should be) a national concern. For instance, do you think religion could play an important part, if, in fact, it’s a functional one? Just asking…
Brosephus™
December 11th, 2012
5:05 pm
You guys love to tout the Clinton budgets but forget that the R Congress had a big hand in balancing the budget at the end of Clinton’s term.
I don’t know who “you guys” are, but anytime I mention Clinton, I also give credit to Congress for whatever happened then. In case you haven’t recognized, I don’t cheerlead for either side as I think they’re both morally corrupt.
Thulsa Doom
December 11th, 2012
5:06 pm
they both suck,
We’ll agree to disagree but from what I see its the Rs who are constantly talking about eliminating whole departments in the federal govt and its the dems who are trying to constantly grow govt. I don’t think there’s any disputing that.
TaxPayer
December 11th, 2012
5:06 pm
Poor Republicans are going to be even poorer once those tax hikes kick in. Then again, if the Republicans had really wanted permanent tax cuts, they should have made them permanent back in 2001 and 2003 while they had the votes to do so. Now they just have to accept the fact that they failed and have to pay the price for their failure–back taxes with interest.
Joe Hussein Mama
December 11th, 2012
5:09 pm
nobodyyouknow — “Joe Huss. Moma. I’ll rant as much as I can rant when I get p—st off about this great country and the mess the politicians have gotten it in.”
Yawn.
You complained that Jay wasn’t being impartial and claimed that it was his *job* to be impartial. Unfortunately for you, you’re just plain WRONG. It’s *not* his job to be impartial, no matter how much you might like for it to be. Anything other than that you want to say to me is irrelevant and beside the point.
If you don’t like it, then shove off for Kyle’s blog. Perhaps the conservative soporifics over there will prove more pleasing to you.
“I’m wondering if you are really Jay in disguise anyway.”
Jay will be glad to tell you I’m not.
“You have feces for brains.”
I hope you enjoyed your time on this blog, because comments like that generally get folks thrown off.
“You might blow your nose a little harder and get it out.”
And you could stand to smarten up a bit. I’ll be glad to help you out, but you’re going to have to man up and put some effort into it yourself, pal.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 11th, 2012
5:15 pm
SHEETZ — with charts.
Thulsa Doom
December 11th, 2012
5:15 pm
Bro,
“you guys” is liberals in general.
Tom,
Okay. Some quick examples. No 99 weeks of unemployment benefits. That’s ridiculous. 6-12 months max and that’s it. If you can’t find a job or start your own small business or you were too stupid to set aside some savings for a rainy day fund then that’s just tough shyte. Women getting help to care for their kids because the dad doesn’t give a shyte? Have the govt garnish up to 15% of the father’s paychecks to help pay for the food stamps and other benefits to raise their kids. Starting making fathers of kids pay for their shyte. Medicaid and other benefits? Fine. Allow them for a certain period of time and no more. Gotta start weening people off of govt dependency. Plain and simple.
Joe Hussein Mama
December 11th, 2012
5:19 pm
Doom — “Medicaid and other benefits? Fine. Allow them for a certain period of time and no more. Gotta start weening people off of govt dependency. Plain and simple.”
You must not realize that Medicaid and a lot of welfare benefits are administered by the *states* and that most states impose time limits on how long recipients can benefit from those programs.
‘Cause if you did, that might mess up your rant.
I’m out. Have a pleasant evening.
Tom Middleton
December 11th, 2012
6:14 pm
Doom@5:15pm
I pray you never get into trouble yourself, Doom, and have to be on the receiving end of your attitudes about government. For unless you’re as perfect as you think all of those you mentioned should be, you could easily be spiraling downward out of control, with no one to stop you or help you climb back up!
This is why I’m a Democrat, Doom: We acknowledge a world of imperfect people, and we know how easy it is for someone to slip and fall, often to never get back up and continue contributing to our world.
Republicans, on the other hand, think only others should be perfect when it comes to your bank accounts and taxes, and that smacks of selfishism on a level that only a real religion could help cure.
In other words, Doom, without the Dems, your people would lose this country in no time at all, and then where would you be without a whole majority of people to blame your evil on.
Start with personal responsibility, my friend, and then learn how to look through the eyes of those you so easily condemn. I’ll bet your commission on the next person you help that you’ll not only change your mind about them once and for all, but that you will realize, more than most, how imperfect you are as well!
Doom, when I see you change, then I will know you believe that others can change as well, and that all your condemning of those you don’t like is more than just hatred of those not just like you!
nobodyyouknow
December 11th, 2012
7:20 pm
J. Hussan MOMMY, I know, I know, I’m just a big mouth conservative, WRONG, I’m independant as you should be and support the candidate best qualified to lead this country. And PAL if I get thrown off this site, nothings lost, its expected when one gets frustrated and loses it trying to talk common SENSE into a BIASED brain.(example) Its common sense that when one spends more than they take in somethings got to give, But you O’bama adorers will never get it. Go to sleep and dream of your “CHOSEN ONE”.
Adam
December 12th, 2012
8:07 am
They BOTH suck: Thank you for all that. It is nice to know there’s someone Thulsa actually listens to. I have told Thulsa I don’t even know how many times the exact same information. But, because it’s me, he seems to think he has to fight to the bitter end and be against everything I say, calling me wrong when he is wrong.
I particularly thank you for this: the right wing talking points (that you like to use) about Democratic Congresses are not exactly factual. You were just wrong….. TODAY, about Reagan’s terms.
I have also pointed out on numerous occasions how tax cuts do not increase revenue. T he measure of a tax cut increasing revenue is whether or not there would have been more or less revenue without the change. In no case were taxes cut across the board and revenue increased more as a result. NO case. Ever. Reagan’s Tax Reform of 1986 is a perfect example of raising rates on the poor (11% to 15%) while lowering them on the rich, and works well in combination with payroll tax increases (only applicable to those making less than $110k) in generating revenue.
But if Thulsa has ever tried to make the case that taxing the poor more is the way out of our fiscal issues on the revenue side, I have not seen it.
JKL2
December 12th, 2012
8:36 am
Thulsa- It wasn’t just given to you.It was earned. And I think that’s lost on a lot of people today who feel like they are just owed a lot of free shyte. And its bankrupting us. Can’t you see that?
I’ll guess at least 47% can’t…
JKL2
December 12th, 2012
8:42 am
tom middleton- why are you so politically resentful of government helping those with no where else to turn?
They have plenty of oportunities, they are just too lazy to do the work. It isn’t the governments responsibility to make you successful. Life doesn’t owe everyone a juice box and a trophy.
Joe Hussein Mama
December 12th, 2012
9:11 am
nobodyyouknow — “J. Hussan MOMMY, I know, I know, I’m just a big mouth conservative,”
I neither said nor thought any such thing.
“WRONG,”
You’re correcting yourself. I didn’t make any claim about you *or* conservatives.
“I’m independant as you should be”
You know nothing about me, so your advice is irrelevant.
“and support the candidate best qualified to lead this country.”
What’s that got to do with you not understanding that Jay’s an opinion columnist and not under any obligation to perform his job according to your expectations?
“And PAL if I get thrown off this site, nothings lost”
Good. Then why don’t you save us all some trouble and take a hike.
“its expected when one gets frustrated and loses it trying to talk common SENSE into a BIASED brain.(example)”
You are just TOO cute.
You spouted some ignorant blather about Jay being biased and not doing his job properly. I pointed out that it IS his job to be biased, as he’s an opinion columnist. You then started changing the subject; complaining about bias, putting words in my mount and making personal insults towards me — insults that I have NOT directed back towards you.
Now, if you’re too dishonest to stay on topic, fine. If you’re not man enough to admit that you were wrong about Jay’s job, fine. But you need to put on your traveling manners and act like you’re in someone else’s house — and that includes not insulting the other guests.
“Its common sense that when one spends more than they take in somethings got to give”
This has nothing whatsoever to do with what you and I were discussing, and you know it.
“But you O’bama adorers will never get it.”
I adore no one and nothing. And once again, this has nothing whatsoever to do with what you and I were talking about.
“Go to sleep and dream of your “CHOSEN ONE”.
Ah, and here we have it. A bitter old man whose candidate was sorely beaten in the last election, looking for someone to argue with.
Look, old-timer, you’re going to need to show a lot more character and honesty and politeness before I show any interest in your advice or directions. From what I can see, you’re a forgetful old prat with a nasty temper and a nastier mouth.
I don’t care how old you are, pal, but you need to grow up and act right.
Bill Orvis White
December 12th, 2012
9:26 am
If Speaker Boehner cannot stick this His core principles by fighting for a balanced budget, severe cuts to needless entitlement programs, capital gains tax cuts, extending the rightful Bush-era tax cuts, eradicating ObamaCare and eliminating burdensome regulations, then WE THE PEOPLE NEED TO REPLACE SPEAKER BOEHNER WHO WOULD HAVE CAVED ON THESE IMPORTANT MUCH-NEEDED BOLD MOVES! I GO FURTHER TO ADDRESS THOSE WITH COMMON SENSE AND TEA PARTY REPUBLICAN MEMBERS THAT ANYONE WHO DOES NOT SUPPORT MAKING THOSE BOLD MOVES NEEDS TO BE REMOVED FROM OFFICE THROUGH IMPEACHMENT AND QUICKLY REPLACED WITH REAL LEADERS WHO WILL SAVE THIS ONCE-FREE NATION!
With those warnings safely in place, I am disgusted that this so-called president is taking us over this cliff thus killing our economy. I’m also disgusted that union thugs are calling for strikes to further weaken our economy! WHAT IS GOING ON HERE PEOPLE? IS ANYONE OUT THERE?
GOOD NIGHT!
Amen,
Bill
captguitarman
December 13th, 2012
3:40 am
” Of course, the Democrats have talked themselves into believing that this is justified.” Boehner. propose specific cuts on specific programs and deep six the extra stimulus. Try to generate at least $2 to $4 in cuts vs. every new $1 from the “rich.” Don’t cave on the statutory control of the debt ceiling whatever you do, or we’ll ahve 20+ trillion in debt by next year, not by 2016. And then stand pat. Or in the alternative, cave on everything and let Obama and the Dems own it all. That might be a quicker way back into power when the economy collapses.