GOP leading a crusade with very few followers
Poll after poll is reporting the same basic finding: the American people are worried about the deficit, but they do not support cutting Medicare or Medicaid, nor do they back raising the Medicare eligibility age to 67.
The latest survey to confirm that finding comes from McClatchy/Marist. As you can see, the voters in the chart above oppose cutting Medicare by a 42-point margin and oppose Medicaid cuts by a similar margin. By an almost 2-1 margin, they also say it is more important to compromise than to stand on principle.
But here’s the twist: The numbers in the chart above are all from voters who self-identified as Republicans. There’s not an independent or Democrat among ‘em. And overall, the level of support or opposition among GOP voters is not that different from voters in general. On the issue of Medicare cuts, for example, just 26 percent of Republican voters support the idea, compared to 23 percent of voters in general.
So again, if Republicans in Washington want to march off the fiscal cliff for the cause of slashing entitlements, and more importantly, if they want to push the country into default by refusing to raise the debt ceiling unless entitlements are slashed, they may turn around and discover that the little parade that they’re trying to lead has very few followers.
– Jay Bookman
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
487 comments Add your comment
Paul
December 11th, 2012
6:54 pm
Scrooge McDuck is a Lib?!!?
td
December 11th, 2012
6:55 pm
Soothsayer
December 11th, 2012
6:46 pm
You are wrong my friend. We are spending 4.5% of our nations GDP today on defense spending. In 1968 we spent 9% of the nations GDP.
Nunna Yobinnes
December 11th, 2012
6:55 pm
Paul, I am as conversant in military matters as you are in tax matters.
td
December 11th, 2012
6:56 pm
Soothsayer
December 11th, 2012
6:46 pm
You are wrong my friend. We are spending 4.5% of our nations GDP today on defense spending. In 1968 we spent 9% of the nations GDP.
Forgot the link:
http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/defense-entitlement-spending
josef
December 11th, 2012
6:56 pm
DONOVAN
Well, I guess “c-cktail hour” must be over at “the club.”
Paul
December 11th, 2012
6:56 pm
Nunna
Then you may want to start demonstrating some valid points on either subject.
Nunna Yobinnes
December 11th, 2012
6:57 pm
Back at you.
Brosephus™
December 11th, 2012
6:57 pm
Paul: The only ones making the points you do (increasing taxes will solve all our problems and will solve the deficit) are nonthinking conservatives.
So why don’t you just admit it’s a conservative idea, not a liberal idea?
You made a funny!!!! You actually expect a conservative, on this blog, to own up to something??? Surely you jest!!
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 11th, 2012
6:57 pm
Your way in life is wrong and my way is right
Oh the foolishness of those who think they are right. I guess he does not know who some posters think they are!
Paul
December 11th, 2012
6:58 pm
td
Do you have that cite for Pres Obama saying raising the marginal rate on the top two tiers by 3-4% will solve our deficit problem?
You may want to ask Nunna for assistance. He fancies himself an expert on tax policy.
josef
December 11th, 2012
6:58 pm
JACK
Are you saying Jay’s “rich?”
Paul
December 11th, 2012
6:59 pm
Brosephus
You were always good at reading the subtleties…..
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 11th, 2012
7:00 pm
Josef
of course Jay and you are rich, best selling authors
Nunna Yobinnes
December 11th, 2012
7:00 pm
Paul, you still aren’t going to acknowledge that it is raising taxes by more than 3 or 4%, because the income brackets are not the same. I am a tax professional with more than 30 years experience. What’s your tax background?
Brosephus™
December 11th, 2012
7:00 pm
Doom @ 6:44
Now, how much of that growth in those states are making it all the way down to the paychecks of the workforce that’s producing that growth? I heard that stat as well. What they didn’t say is how much of that growth ends up in the hands of the workforce.
Thulsa Doom
December 11th, 2012
7:01 pm
“We are spending 4.5% of our nations GDP today on defense spending. In 1968 we spent 9% of the nations GDP”
True. But nowadays we have these things called aircraft carriers, where planes land on them. We have these ships that go underwater, nuclear submarines.
Soothsayer
December 11th, 2012
7:05 pm
td: percents mean nothing to me. We are spending in excess of $1 trillion annually on our military/security complex (including interest on past military/security complex spending).
“What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security . . .
“This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter . . .
“To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it—please try to believe me—unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, ‘regretted,’ that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these ‘little measures’ that no ‘patriotic German’ could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.
“How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know.”
– From an interview with a German citizen after World War II
from the book by Milton Mayer, They Thought They Were Free
josef
December 11th, 2012
7:06 pm
COMMON SENSE
Yeah, we’re meeting up later at a chic little bistro to have c*cktails and plot the overthrow of the evil rich… It’s a nasty job, but somebody has to do it.
josef
December 11th, 2012
7:09 pm
SOOTH
“… the book by Milton Mayer, They Thought They Were Free”
An excellent work and probably the best I have ever read on the subject. Should be required reading by all high school students.
Thulsa Doom
December 11th, 2012
7:09 pm
Brocephus,
Wages were higher in the right to work states. But so was unemployment, an eroding tax base, economic growth was slower, and population loss.
Wages were overall lower in the right to work states but unemployment was substantially lower and the economices were growing and gaining populations.
Considering that liberals are supposedly more about equality I’m going to guess that you guys are for more having jobs, the economy growing better, and less people dealing with the pain of unemployment. They may make a little bit less overall but they are better overall.
On top of that I would venture to say that tax burdens are probably lower in right to work states thus making those lower earnings go farther than in a higher tax state like say New York or New Jersey. I’m sure you’ll probably agree with that.
And last of all those people probably have a much better chance of keeping their jobs as opposed to seeing them outsourced. At least that’s the evidence as indicated by population and jobs growth.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 11th, 2012
7:10 pm
td: “OK, I will bite. How do you have growth when every policy (Obamacare to environmental regulations to tax policies) are all anti growth?”
Thulsa Doom: “You can’t possibly be referencing the anemic 2% or so economic growth we’ve had under Obama”
Well, it’s sort of like health. Doing everything healthy won’t by itself guarantee good health outcomes. Other factors are involved. On the other hand, doing unhealthy things comes much closer to guaranteed poor health. Austerity — an approach based entirely on spending cuts — is like those unhealthy habits that guarantee poor health in the economic “body”. No country has ever cut its way to growth.
As for Obama’s tepid growth, yes, it’s true, growth would have been far better had we seen far more aggressive action – such as a Rooseveltian program – but to the extent that we’ve had growth it has likely been the result of Obama’s stimulus that actually consisted of spending boosts and not on tax-cutting bows to conservative ideas. But Obama was far from Roosevelt. Hell he’s far from Richard Nixon. He’s actually quite conservative, which has been a tragic limitation.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 11th, 2012
7:10 pm
So far, more than 16,500 people have signed a petition asking the White House to build a Death Star. The official petition on WhiteHouse.gov needs 25,000 signatures by Dec. 14 before the government will even consider it
Gingrich is apparently seeking his Deathstar base to rule the world. But the rest of the GOP wants bayonets instead.
Paul
December 11th, 2012
7:12 pm
Nunna
Incompetent generals cause many of our problems in Iraq and Afghanistan, so don’t be too quick to fall for the error of self-aggrandizement.
You may want to read what’s written, not what you think is written. Might save you some errors on preparing returns. I wrote “Do you have that cite for Pres Obama saying raising the marginal rate on the top two tiers by 3-4% will solve our deficit problem?”
That does not relate to what you are attempting to portray so you can go off on one of your tangents.
Are you the guy who was going on and on the other day about how 3 percent of $50,000 is $15,000, not $1,500?
Brosephus™
December 11th, 2012
7:13 pm
You are wrong my friend. We are spending 4.5% of our nations GDP today on defense spending. In 1968 we spent 9% of the nations GDP.
LOL!!!!!
1968: 9% of $825B
vs
2012: 4.5% of $15T
LOL!!!!!!
RF
December 11th, 2012
7:13 pm
“Gingrich is apparently seeking his Deathstar base to rule the world”
Newt’s too fat for the Dark Lord robe, though. Kinda confuses the story when the lord looks like Java the Hut…
Nunna Yobinnes
December 11th, 2012
7:15 pm
Ok Paul. I am going to go to the website you linked, and copy and paste the tax schedules contained therein. We are going to compare what the total tax is based on those tax schedules. BRB.
Mick
December 11th, 2012
7:16 pm
I just figured out who donovan is? One of the koch brothers! Jay knows how to make him tie his panties in a wad, job well done…
RF
December 11th, 2012
7:16 pm
While painful cuts, at least short term, need to be made to reduce the deficit, those don’t all need to come from social programs. Those who receive such aid tend to spend it, and that generates sales taxes and business revenue and does create jobs. Reduce that, and the overall economy contracts somewhat. Now is not the time for that.
Paul
December 11th, 2012
7:20 pm
Nunna
You’re just bound and determined to hijack td’s and mine’s conversation so you can engage me, aren’t you?
I’m flattered in a creepy kind of way. And not at all sure I wish to chase you thru rabbit holes.
But first: you never answered: are you the guy from a few days’ back who said someone making $300,000 a year would pay an additional $15,000 a year if Obama’s marginal rate changes went thru?
Paul
December 11th, 2012
7:21 pm
Nunna
You been drinking?
Paul
December 11th, 2012
7:23 pm
Nunna
History Channel’s 3-hour episode on the History of Mankind starts in 30 minutes. Please don’t take too long to answer.
td
December 11th, 2012
7:24 pm
Brosephus™
December 11th, 2012
7:13 pm
You are wrong my friend. We are spending 4.5% of our nations GDP today on defense spending. In 1968 we spent 9% of the nations GDP.
LOL!!!!!
1968: 9% of $825B
vs
2012: 4.5% of $15T
LOL!!!!!!
We spent $15 trillion dollars last year or are we $15 trillion in debt? Numbers are not your thing are they?
Thulsa Doom
December 11th, 2012
7:27 pm
“On the other hand, doing unhealthy things comes much closer to guaranteed poor health. Austerity — an approach based entirely on spending cuts — is like those unhealthy habits that guarantee poor health in the economic “body”. No country has ever cut its way to growth.”
Growth based entirely on spending cuts doesn’t work? Maybe not entirely but spending cuts certainly do spur a country into getting its economic house in order- especially when not cutting your spending results in your eventual bankruptcy. You might want to check with the Greeks and ask how that runaway spending worked for them- if you can get them to stop rioting first.
josef
December 11th, 2012
7:28 pm
PAUL
Unfortunately I’m Eastern Time and am not going to be able to catch the next episode that I REALLY wanted to see…the American Civil War…I guess I’ll have to wait for rerun on it…most excellent series that one is…
Thulsa Doom
December 11th, 2012
7:29 pm
Paul
December 11th, 2012
7:21 pm
Nunna
“You been drinking?”
That’s my purview Paul. KD
Paul
December 11th, 2012
7:29 pm
td
If a family of four earns $50,000 a year and spends, say, $5,000 (10%) on food to be healthy, does that mean if another family earns $250,000 a year they have to spend $25,000 a year (10 percent) to be healthy? Or if they eat out every meal at top-tier restaurants, to cut back from 25 grand will endanger their health?
You got that link yet for Pres Obama saying raising marginal rates will fix the deficit? Please don’t abandon me on this, td. Nunna’s bound and determined what you really meant was a discussion on all of Pres Obama’s tax proposals and he wants me to defend them all.
Maybe you, as a fellow conservative, could give him a little attention, too?
josef
December 11th, 2012
7:30 pm
DOGGONE
Just caught the Bernie Madoff…yeah, I agree….
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
December 11th, 2012
7:30 pm
Well, there’s got to be something we can do to slow spending down. Like handing sick people in emergency room a mop and bucket and letting them work off a little of the cost while they’re waiting to see a doc. Or maybe turning the geezers into go-fers in offices and letting them work for some of their whiskey and women money.
But dang if I ain’t plumb out of ideas right now. The only thing I could contribute to this blog tonight would be a whole bunch of dumb ideas and you don’t need me for that. Not when you got Thelma Doom.
So I’m just going to stretch out in my new double recliner with old Ace and watch some Fox News. Have a good night everybody. And oh yeah,
B
O
O
M
!
Paul
December 11th, 2012
7:31 pm
josef
I’ve enjoyed it so far.
Hey there, Thulsa,
Yeah well… with you, it actually seems to improve the posts!!!! (joke!)
Steve-USA
December 11th, 2012
7:32 pm
My wife would vote that she have an unlimited shoe budget. That doesn’t make it a good idea.
Paul
December 11th, 2012
7:33 pm
Redneck
Beer tax?
And how’d you get the new recliner before your whiz-bang accountant got you that free money on your 2012 return?
Mick
December 11th, 2012
7:33 pm
donovan **Your way in life is wrong and my way is right. What you believe is fundamentally corrosive to a better way of life and destructive in its essence. I used to be a liberal hippie in my youth, but as an adult I grew out of such folly.**
Wow…now I really know why donovan comes here to hurdy gurdy….he misses it! What a stale, sterile life you must have…it’s not too late to become…..young again!
Throw off those shackles, spark one up and reflect…yes…a mystical revelation is in your grasp…reach out and regain your human spirit!!! Money is man made.
Common sense?
Please be able to see that we are all part of the same hypocrisy, just don’t think that it applies to just one group…
Brosephus™
December 11th, 2012
7:35 pm
Doom
Why is it that you can’t address ME and not this “you all” stuff? I don’t speak for liberals and liberals don’t speak for me.
I could honestly care less whether a state is right-to-work or not. My issue is with the Right’s assault on organized labor. I can’t understand why you or any other conservative chooses to squash someone’s right to peacefully assemble, a right which is protected by the Constitution.
I would venture to say that the assault on organized labor in conjunction with the downward trajectory of membership is why we have seen a stagnation of wages over the past 40 years. You can cry innovation and such, but increased productivity USED to lead to increased wages. Now, since nobody’s there to force the owners/managment to the table to negotiate such increases, the workers are at the mercy of the O/M group to decide whether they deserve any of the increases generated by the very work and labor they perform.
It’s easy for one to preach about working hard and such when you have a cushy job with cushy pay. I’m willing to bet that nary a conservative who preaches that stuff would say the same thing if they worked 2 miles underground everyday breathing in coal dust while trying to earn a living for their family.
It’s all about perspectives, and when you sit on the toilet, you have no idea of where your sh*t flows. When you’re at the end of that pipe, you have no idea of where the sh*t comes from, but you have to deal with it day in and day out.
Thulsa Doom
December 11th, 2012
7:37 pm
“Those who receive such aid tend to spend it, and that generates sales taxes and business revenue and does create jobs. Reduce that, and the overall economy contracts somewhat. Now is not the time for that.”
RF,
I’m afraid that you’ve suffered a basic economics fail. No economist worth his salt is going to say that a transfer payment translates into superior economic growth. If anything it reduces economic growth because the dollar used in a transfer payment is not as efficiently allocated or spent as a dollar invested in an entreprenurial activity. And in common sense terms if a transfer payment meant an economic boost then all we would have to do is put everyone on welfare or food stamps and watch the economy skyrocket. The notion is beyond silly.
Brosephus™
December 11th, 2012
7:37 pm
td: We spent $15 trillion dollars last year or are we $15 trillion in debt? Numbers are not your thing are they?
Obviously numbers aren’t your thing. You’re the one comparing GDP of 1968 to today. You figure it out. I even used the percentages of your post to lead the way for you. You are capable of logical reasoning, right?
Soothsayer
December 11th, 2012
7:38 pm
Masked gunman with assault rifle opens fire in Oregon mall. Sixty shots fired, at least 2 dead.
atljack
December 11th, 2012
7:42 pm
6 Presidential elections in the past 24 years. Democrats won 5 of the 6 (The Supremes stopped the recount in Florida where W. brother was the Governor (doing slimy things to suppress voting) and W’s state campaign manager counted the votes (whew… bad makeup.. she later ran for Senate and Wl abandoned her).
And that Kenyan-born socialist with the funny name WHACKED the GOP TWICE… stings doesn’t boys?
josef
December 11th, 2012
7:42 pm
Check y’all tomorrow…gotta run and get some stuff ready before going back to work tomorrow…
middle of the road
December 11th, 2012
7:42 pm
If these are truly Republicans, I agree that they are not very knowledgeable. That first graph really surprized me. Con’t want to let the PAYROLL tax expire? That is one thing that I really disagreed with Obama on – taking our less Social Security taxes when the system is going downhill?
What we need to do is structure the poll questions in terms of options. Example: do you favor increasing social security taxes now, cutting social security payouts to 75% of current in 20 years, or upping the retirement age to 69? Which one? Do you favor drastically increasing Medicare taxes or do you favor drastic cuts in Medicare benefits? None of this – I want to cut taxes and spend more (such as putting Medicare Part D in place).
We put a lot of spending on our national credit card – two wars, Medicare part D and TARP, and we need to start paying that balance down, or at least quit charging MORE. Or we need to get that second job and bring in more money.
Paul
December 11th, 2012
7:43 pm
Soothsayer
I was just about to post “Pleasant evening, all -” but it just seems inappropriate.
Sympathies to the victims and their families.
Mick
December 11th, 2012
7:43 pm
brosephus
I know it’s a cliche, but no one knows another mans journey until they can step into those shoes. All this anti-union BS is just that. My dad raised nine children as a union general foreman, and that he was. Every job he did was under budget and on time, if you didn’t work, you were fired, simple as that. He knew the contractor would have no contract if they didn’t produce. Good wages, medical, dental and a pension, that’s what is being lost in this crap argument. Know it alls, I lived it…
Fred ™
December 11th, 2012
7:43 pm
Hello jo, just doing a drive by. Didn’t even read the topic…….
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 11th, 2012
7:43 pm
Ahhh the idiotic garbage posting of the self-proclaimed economist who apparently knows more than real economists.
Brosephus™
December 11th, 2012
7:44 pm
Mick
Exactly…
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 11th, 2012
7:47 pm
“GOP leading a crusade with very few followers”
Except for the U.S. Congress and a multitude of State Governors and legislatures.
Geez !
Soothsayer
December 11th, 2012
7:50 pm
Gov. Rick “Snake in the Grass” Snyder signs Right to Work legislation under cover of darkness.
Soothsayer
December 11th, 2012
7:52 pm
Apparently the gunman is locked in the mall in Portland, OR and cannot escape at this moment.
Nunna Yobinnes
December 11th, 2012
7:52 pm
Here is my example of persons with $300,000 in taxable income (rates and brackets taken from your link).
To say nothing of the .9% increase in medicare surtax for persons with more than 200000 (Single) or 250000 (MFJ) in W-2 income (a thinly disguised income tax under the guise of “medicare” tax.
It also does not reflect the 3.8% “medicare” surtax (again another thinly disguised income tax) for investment income for persons with more than 200000 (Single) or 250000 (MFJ).
If no action is taken:
Federal marginal income tax brackets
2012 2013?
Single: 2012
10% ($0–$8,700) 8700 x 10% = 870
15% ($8,701–$35,350) 26649 x 15% = 3997
25% ($35,351–$85,650) 50299 x 25% = 12575
28% ($85,651–$178,650) 92999 x 28% = 26040
33% ($178,651–$388,350) 121349 x 33% = 40045
35% (over $388,350) Total = 83527
Married filing jointly: 2012
10% ($0–$17,400) 17400 x 10% = 1740
15% ($17,401–$70,700) 53299 x 15% = 7995
25% ($70,701–$142,700) 71999 x 25% = 18000
28% ($142,701–$217,450) 74749 x 28% = 20930
33% ($217,451–$388,350) 82549 x 33% = 27241
35% (over $388,350) Total = 75906
Single: 2013
15.0% ($0–$35,500) 35500 x 15% = 5325
28.0% ($35,501–$86,000) 50499 x 28% = 14140
31.0% ($86,001–$179,400) 93399 x 31% = 28954
36.0% ($179,401–$390,050) 120599 x 36% = 43416
39.6% (over $390,050) Total = 91835
Married filing jointly: 2013
15.0% ($0–$59,300) 59300 x 15% = 8895
28.0% ($59,301–$143,350) 84049 x 28% = 23534
31.0% ($143,351–$218,450) 75099 x 31% = 23281
36.0% ($218,451–$390,050) 81549 x 36% = 29358
39.6% (over $390,050) Total = 85068
Summary – Single Person
91835 – 83527 = 8308 increase (seems to be a lot more than 1500 to me, how about you?)
Summary – Married Couple
85068 – 75906 = 9162 increase (seems to be a lot more than 1500 to me, how about you?)
Capital gains
2012 2013?
Short-term gains are taxed as ordinary income.
Long-term gains are taxed at 0% if total income including capital gains puts you in the 10% or 15% brackets; 15% if total income including capital gains puts you in the 25% or higher bracket.
Short-term gains will be taxed as ordinary income.
Long-term gains will be taxed at 10% if you’re in the 15% bracket; 20% for all other brackets.
Additional Medicare tax on investment income explained below.
Dividends
2012 2013?
Taxed at ordinary income rate unless held for more than 60 days during the 121-day period that begins 60 days before the ex-dividend date. All will be subject to ordinary income rates. “Qualifying” dividends will disappear.
Additional Medicare tax on investment income explained below.
Estate, gift, and generation-skipping taxes
2012 2013?
Exemption: $5.12 million
Tax rate: 35% Exemption: $1 million
Tax rate: 55%
Medicare taxes
(changes stemming from 2010 health care legislation)
2012 2013?
Flat 2.9% tax rate on salary and/or self-employment income. Additional 0.9% tax on salary and/or self-employment income:
Above $200,000, if single.
Above $250,000 (combined), if married filing jointly.
Above $125,000, if married filing separately.
Additional 3.8% tax on net investment income (including long-term capital gains and dividends) if adjusted gross income exceeds:
$200,000 (single).
$250,000 (married filing jointly).
$125,000 (married filing separately).
Sources: IRS, Forbes magazine.
Mick
December 11th, 2012
7:54 pm
0311@7:47
We are working on it, keep up with the loser shenanigans and in 2014 we’ll just have to finish the job! The iced tea party is too busy giving 8 million dollar payouts – to be taken seriously again, what a scam!!!
weetamoe
December 11th, 2012
7:54 pm
The smoking gun is the toxic cloud.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 11th, 2012
7:55 pm
Mick, that is the Vanilla Iced Tea Party.
TaxPayer
December 11th, 2012
7:56 pm
Except for the U.S. Congress and a multitude of State Governors and legislatures.
Geez is right. The Senate is majority Democrat, the House is majority Republican and the Executive is Democrat. Then, there are also a multitude of Democrat governors and legislatures. But you knew that already, didn’t you.
Soothsayer
December 11th, 2012
8:01 pm
Apparently, they have caught the shooter and he has been “neutralized.” Thank God!
Thulsa Doom
December 11th, 2012
8:02 pm
“I can’t understand why you or any other conservative chooses to squash someone’s right to peacefully assemble, a right which is protected by the Constitution.”
With all due respect brocephus what in the hell are you talking about? Who amongst us cons is talking about squashing someone’s right to peacefully assemble? Where in the hell do you see that?
As for an assault on organized labor we see it 2 different ways. You look at it that way and I look at it as a union bullying people into joining. And that to me is an assault on a man’s freedom.
“It’s easy for one to preach about working hard and such when you have a cushy job with cushy pay.”
My job aint exactly cushy and nobody is giving me a check. I have to earn it and without anyone’s help. And my first 2 years in this business I damn near starved. I’m only now truly reaping the rewards years later. People see me now taking time off to goof off or do whatever I want like blog all day because I have a nice residual income built up and coming in whether I work or not. What they don’t see and respect is how hard I had to work to get here. And I aint even rich-I got a long, long way to go to get there.
“I’m willing to bet that nary a conservative who preaches that stuff would say the same thing if they worked 2 miles underground everyday breathing in coal dust while trying to earn a living for their family.”
And you would be wrong. Half my uncles on my mother’s side were coal miners and a few of them died from black lung way back in the day- grandpa died from it. They were union members and damn proud of it. They all evetually ended up losing their jobs because the coal companys were forced to innovate with more technology due to ever escalating labor costs. Now they do other things. Several are retired but the 2 youngest uncles are now small busiess men. And they vote Republican and they do in fact blame the unions for the job losses. Same with uncle John who retired from a GM auto plant in Buffalo at only 52. He worked there back in the heyday but still complained over the crap that the unions did. And he was a union member.
“It’s all about perspectives, and when you sit on the toilet, you have no idea of where your sh*t flows. When you’re at the end of that pipe, you have no idea of where the sh*t comes from, but you have to deal with it day in and day out.”
Yeah. It is. And you maybe need to hear the perspective of relatives who’ve been in big unions and who’ve seen those unions destroy jobs and companies. I’ve seen both perspectives and while there are instances and times were unions are certainly needed and are a good thing I just believe the pendulum has swing too far in one direction. It is starting to now swing the other way. Who knows? In 20 years it may very well swing back the other way if employers push to far and don’t pay people fairly.
weetamoe
December 11th, 2012
8:04 pm
What a pretty chart. The Michigan legislature passes a law and union thugs beat people up, tear down and trample a tent with women and children inside. A whole buncha pictures out there. Jay puts up a chart. Oh what a pretty chart.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 11th, 2012
8:05 pm
Good news today:
1) Michigan stikes a blow for freedom re: “Right to Work” !
2) HEADLINE (ABC): “Appeals Court Strikes Down Illinois Law Prohibiting Concealed Carry”
“In a major victory for gun rights advocates, a federal appeals court on Tuesday struck down a ban on carrying concealed weapons in Illinois — the only remaining state where carrying concealed weapons is entirely illegal — and gave lawmakers 180 days to write a law that legalizes it.”
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/court-strikes-illinois-concealed-carry-law-17934651#.UMePNgrWzL4.email
Thulsa Doom
December 11th, 2012
8:06 pm
Aaaaaand the little sandflea takes a nip. Too funny.
Soothsayer
December 11th, 2012
8:07 pm
Hey! you’re wife’s a b*tch. The boss is an *sshole. Liberals are *ssholes. Take your AK-47 to the mall and kill a few people. You’ll feel much better!
Thulsa Doom
December 11th, 2012
8:07 pm
“A whole buncha pictures out there. Jay puts up a chart. Oh what a pretty chart.”
Charts are pertyer than ugly union violence.
Mick
December 11th, 2012
8:08 pm
** it may very well swing back the other way if employers push to far and don’t pay people fairly.**
We are there man…
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
December 11th, 2012
8:09 pm
“The following is a list of incumbent governors of the states and territories of the United States. There are currently 29 Republicans, 20 Democrats, and 1 Independent holding the office of governor in the states.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_United_States_governors
“There are 27 Republican Controlled State Legislatures, 19 Democrat, 3 Split and 1 Non-Partisan”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_state_legislatures
YAWN !
Mick
December 11th, 2012
8:11 pm
What about those pleasant corporate thugs at hostess? Screw the little guy and his pensions. That’s a nice kick in the ass if you’re in your fifties, leeches!!!
Mick
December 11th, 2012
8:13 pm
Governor rick “the disaster” scott is DOA in 2014. One less regressive in the pack…
TaxPayer
December 11th, 2012
8:14 pm
Scout yawns as though he accomplished something strenuous. Like I said, Congress is not Republican and there are a multitude of Democrat governors and legislatures. Yawn!
Brosephus™
December 11th, 2012
8:14 pm
With all due respect brocephus what in the hell are you talking about? Who amongst us cons is talking about squashing someone’s right to peacefully assemble? Where in the hell do you see that?
Denying people the opportunity to organize is just that. That’s where in the hell I see that. It’s quite telling that you, a supposed member of the Party that respects and reveres the Constitution, don’t see that at all.
As for an assault on organized labor we see it 2 different ways. You look at it that way and I look at it as a union bullying people into joining. And that to me is an assault on a man’s freedom.
Just because you see something a certain way does not mean that your view is right and all others are wrong, just as my view may not be correct. In this instance, I would suggest that you further educate yourself on union rules, and just for you, I will post this once again. Even Erwin’s Cat admitted that he didn’t know the information that I posted earlier.
http://www.nrtw.org/a/a_1_p.htm
Question: Can I be required to be a union member or pay dues to a union?
Answer: You may not be required to be a union member. But, if you do not work in a Right to Work state, you may be required to pay union fees.
Employment relations for almost all private sector employees (other than those in the airline and railroad industries) are covered by the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA).
Under the NLRA, you cannot be required to be a member of a union or pay it any monies as a condition of employment unless the collective bargaining agreement between your employer and your union contains a provision requiring all employees to either join the union or pay union fees.
Even if there is such a provision in the agreement, the most that can be required of you is to pay the union fees (generally called an “agency fee.”) Most employees are not told by their employer and union that full union membership cannot lawfully be required. In Pattern Makers v. NLRB, 473 U.S. 95 (1985), the United States Supreme Court held that union members have the right to resign their union membership at any time.
[...]
The Supreme Court, in Communication Workers v. Beck, 487 U.S. 735 (1988), a lawsuit that was supported by the Foundation, ruled that objecting nonmembers cannot be required to pay union dues. The most that nonmembers can be required to pay is an agency fee that equals their share of what the union can prove is its costs of collective bargaining, contract administration, and grievance adjustment with their employer.
Except in extraordinary cases, the union’s costs of collective bargaining, contract administration, and grievance adjustment do not equal the dues amount.
In short, unless the union and management agreed that every person that works the job has to join the union, NOBODY can force you to join a union. Therefore, your whole viewpoint of people being bullied into joining a union is a viewpoint that has no basis in fact. The Supreme Court disagrees with you and the NLRB disagrees with you as well.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 11th, 2012
8:15 pm
Breitbart Folks Appear to Fake Violence in Lansing
When I saw this video–claiming that a “violent mob” destroyed the tent the Koch brothers had paid for in front of the Michigan Capitol–I knew right away it was likely a false flag. After all, Stranahan, James O’Keefe’s buddy, first posted it. Within minutes it was up at Drudge.
All this, in spite of the fact that witnesses say the Americans for Prosperity people were trying to provoke union members to violence, and witnesses reportedly saw AFP people loosening the ropes on the tents so they would come down.
Lynnie Gal
December 11th, 2012
8:16 pm
Talk about a miracle. (Some) Republicans have burst their protective bubble of ignorance, which I suppose involves tuning Fox News out after the election debacle.
TaxPayer
December 11th, 2012
8:16 pm
Breitbart Folks Appear to Fake Violence in Lansing
Well what did you expect from cons.
Brosephus™
December 11th, 2012
8:20 pm
And you maybe need to hear the perspective of relatives who’ve been in big unions and who’ve seen those unions destroy jobs and companies. I’ve seen both perspectives and while there are instances and times were unions are certainly needed and are a good thing I just believe the pendulum has swing too far in one direction.
Does the United Steelworkers and United Rubberworkers count as big unions? My grandfather was a steel worker, and he raised me. I had uncles and my father were rubber workers. I belong to NTEU. I’ve seen it all, and I’ve heard it all. The pendulum has swung too far, but it’s not all the fault of unions. Unless things have changed, it takes two parties to negotiate. Steelworkers in the US got sh*tted on because of cheap imports more than anything else. When our country allows foreigners to dump their cheap sh*t on us without protecting workers here at home, of course people will blame the unions for wages and stuff. That’s only looking at things halfway because there were two parties at the table that negotiated those wages.
I look forward to the day that people start taking blame for their own actions instead of blaming others. Trying to blame everything on unions is nothing more that letting the managment/owners off the hook for their part of the negotiations. Usually, they’re the ones lobbying for the “free trade” and other stuff that eroded our working class anyway. So, when there are middle class people, such as yourself, who demonize other middle class workers just because of their affiliation with unions, you do more to harm this country than the unions themselves.
Nunna Yobinnes
December 11th, 2012
8:21 pm
Paul? Where are you Paul? $1500 my rear end. Try $8308 (single) or $9162 (MFJ). I beat your 30 minute deadline, even though I was not aware of it. I takes time to multiply all those numbers and type them in on the blog. Where are you?
Dekalb comments
December 11th, 2012
8:21 pm
Demographic changes are happening. Whether the GOP attempts to change the minds of the oncoming electorate or not is one question. But they are coming and will relegate the pukkkes to the dustbin of history if they are not careful.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 11th, 2012
8:21 pm
Kam, and yet some posters of garbage and stupidity will claim that unions did this just like the false claims they attributed to OWS.
Thulsa Doom
December 11th, 2012
8:22 pm
emptywheelspam
Thulsa Doom
December 11th, 2012
8:24 pm
Kooks thinking that other kooks blogs are real news. Fun-knee! They do like they openwheelspam they do.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
December 11th, 2012
8:26 pm
Keep
You nailed it, and with a minute to spare.
Mick
December 11th, 2012
8:27 pm
**So, when there are middle class people, such as yourself, who demonize other middle class workers just because of their affiliation with unions, you do more to harm this country than the unions themselves.**
Pure poetry!!! Preach it brother or why even bother? If this is a cycle, then the old battles will have to be re-fought. In this day and age, it might even be more difficult, too many droids walking around connected to their phones 24/7, the apathy is epidemic. You reap what you sow, good luck younger american folk, you’re going to friggin need it!!!
Bill Campbell
December 11th, 2012
8:28 pm
Obama is the worst President in American History!
JamVet
December 11th, 2012
8:28 pm
In 1933 Adolph Hitler ended collective bargaining and any other rights that unions usually called for and drastically lowered wages in Germany.
The Republicans, beginning with Reagan, have been trying to figure out a way to do it here.
One of the reasons they will hopefully keep getting crushed every other November…
Doggone/GA
December 11th, 2012
8:30 pm
“Obama is the worst President in American History!”
Now that you got that off your chest…do you feel better?
real john
December 11th, 2012
8:31 pm
Jay,
One of, (if not the biggest) qualities a leader must possess is the ability to make tough decisions.
Of course if you said, I’m going to take something away from you, most people are not going to be for that. However, most Americans don’t have access to the same information as Senators and members of Congress. Entitlement reform is a must. I don’t think anyone Dem or Rep would disagaree on that.
However, to due that, inevitably most people probably will see a cut. S.S. and Medicare weren’t designed to last 25 years. Did you know as recently as the 1970s the average retiree only drew S.S for 4 years until they died??
The Repubs have offered over $800 billion in tax increases the Dems so covet. All they are asking is for the President to offer some spending cuts. See JAY THAT’S WHAT A COMPROMISE MEANS. BOTH PARTIES DON’T GET EVERYTHING THEY WANT. However, according to you, and your liberal lemmings, the Repubs are the obstructionist. Where has Obama offered anything as to a compromise?
Nunna Yobinnes
December 11th, 2012
8:31 pm
All those inflated union wages, and it’s still not enough to suit some folks.
Nunna Yobinnes
December 11th, 2012
8:32 pm
Wanna know why automobiles are too expensive for the common man? Unions.
Doggone/GA
December 11th, 2012
8:34 pm
“All they are asking is for the President to offer some spending cuts”
Well, see…he has. But een if he hadn’t…he wouldn’t have to. All he’s got to do is sit tight and they spending cuts will kick in on Jan 2.
Soothsayer
December 11th, 2012
8:35 pm
How come none of the kids had great Moms like this when I was in school? Why? TELL ME!
Recon 0311 2533
December 11th, 2012
8:37 pm
Jay with his charts and polls. We don’t know the questions asked in this poll but regardless of self described Republicans or Democrats it’s about the debt crises stupid. Jay and his fellow far-left Democrats are having multiple cerebral orgasms thinking they’ve won some kind of a national mandate, which is a joke given the rather slim reelection national vote margin for Obama. The reality of this country’s real economic crises goes beyond the so called fiscal cliff but isn’t that far off and the far-left captive Dem party will be finally forced to prove they know what they’re doing. Proving governing competence will prove to be an insurmountable challenge for this administration. Fasten your seat belts America.
Thulsa Doom
December 11th, 2012
8:38 pm
“Steelworkers in the US got sh*tted on because of cheap imports more than anything else. When our country allows foreigners to dump their cheap sh*t on us without protecting workers here at home, of course people will blame the unions for wages and stuff.”
Well for once we are in full agreement.
“Trying to blame everything on unions is nothing more that letting the managment/owners off the hook for their part of the negotiations.”
Nope. Management also usually has culpability as well as in the case of Hostess. But the unions demanding that twinkies and wonderbread be carried on different trucks does not increase pay- it simply introduces costly inefficiencies to that business. Both are to blame but costly union demands that have nothing to do with perhour wages don’t help.
“Usually, they’re the ones lobbying for the “free trade” and other stuff that eroded our working class anyway.”
Wrong. As Jay’s econ article pointed out long ago and as practically any economist agrees the world is better off with free trade. There will be short term winners and losers but overall we are better off. You have repeatedly over and over and over made the mistake of thinking that if we lose unskilled labor jobs such as textile jobs to outsourcing that its a bad thing. And that is simply not true. But yet you continue to persist in this fallacious economic belief.
“So, when there are middle class people, such as yourself, who demonize other middle class workers just because of their affiliation with unions, you do more to harm this country than the unions themselves.”
I don’t demonize union members themselves as plenty of family members including my sister in law are union members or have been. I do demonize the union leadership of some unions who are thuggish and misguided in my view. And I do demonize union members who engage in physical violence against others simply because they believe differently. They deserve it. And I think they do more harm to themselves and their cause with unrealistic demands, selfishness, and violent protests than ole Doomy ever could.
JamVet
December 11th, 2012
8:40 pm
Nunna, American fascism has had its 30 year run. Time for the cons to self deport to Brazil…
TaxPayer
December 11th, 2012
8:41 pm
I sure hope they don’t go back to those 2001 level personal exemptions and standard deductions though because that would really hurt the poor wealthiest something terrible, not to mention the fate of earned income credits and other such things:
2012:
Personal exemption and standard deduction:
Single: $9750
Married Filing Jointly: $19,500
2001:
Personal exemption and standard deduction:
Single: $7450
Married Filing Jointly: $13,400
All totaled, poor Erwin is gonna get stuck with an extra 12k tax bill if all those taxes revert to the 2001 level and I doubt that estimate even includes the changes in deductions and exemptions and credits and such. If only Bush and the Republicans had made their tax cuts and such permanent back when they wrote and passed that legislation, none of this would even be an issue now. That’s a shame. A real shame.
TaxPayer
December 11th, 2012
8:43 pm
Wanna know why automobiles are too expensive for the common man? Unions.
Damn those Honda unions.
They BOTH suck
December 11th, 2012
8:43 pm
The pendulum has swung too far…….
What is the union membership in terms of the workforce?
10 or 12%?
And yes, there are contracts out there that some unions play hard ball with during hard times and it doesn’t help out the workers.
And no I have never been part of a union. Yes, I do know those who have been: friends and family. I have heard mixed reviews.
The few Republicans I know that are in one are called pilots. They don’t seem to poo poo their’s too much.