A technical guide to cliff-jumping, fiscal and otherwise

romney

"Oh no, we're going over the edge and I'm not driving!!!"

Hi ho, hi ho, it’s off the fiscal cliff we go ….

Yes, it’s still pretty early in the process. Negotiators in Washington are several weeks from the deadline for averting the so-called fiscal cliff, which would automatically kick in some $600 billion in tax hikes and spending cuts. But so far, neither side is willing to take the steps necessary to alter course. U.S. Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina predicted over the weekend that “we’re going over the cliff,” and it wouldn’t be a surprise if he turns out to be right.

In preparation for that moment, I thought it might be timely to review five classic examples of cliff-jumping, including a brief analysis of the techniques, motivations and survival strategies, if any, involved in each.

1. The iconic “Thelma and Louise:”

thelma2

The “Thelma and Louise” is a grand philosophical gesture. It makes a statement to the world that life as we had previously known it just isn’t worth living any longer, so what the hell, right? Put the pedal to the metal and let’s see what happens.

A surprising number of those in Congress, both Republicans and Democrats, have apparently joined the “Thelma and Louise Caucus,” raising the odds that we’ll be going over the edge in spectacular style. As Louise told Thelma, “You’ve always been crazy. This is just the first chance you’ve had to express yourself.”

Among other things, it’s a terrible waste of a 1966 Thunderbird convertible.

2. The “Wile E. Coyote”:

Wile-E-Coyote_falling

Wile E. Coyote is obsessed with catching the Roadrunner, but in the end is always frustrated by his own incompetence and bungling. Quite often, his dreams and plans involve mail-order Acme products, such as Acme rockets, Acme earthquake pills or, in the case of the 2012 GOP campaign, Acme polling and Acme Senate candidates.

The good news is that the Coyote is indestructible. After every failed attempt — most of which involve long, painful falls off a cliff — he picks himself up and tries again. The bad news is, he never seems to learn that doing the same thing over and over again only ensures that you keep getting the same bad results. That is both his charm and his fatal flaw.

3. The Acalpulco Cliff Diver:

cliffdive

The secret to surviving this form of cliff-diving is timing. If you launch your dive at the proper moment, as the ocean waves are surging in toward you, there will be enough water in the bay below to allow a safe entry. However, if you time it wrong — if you jump just as the waves are washing back out to sea — you can find yourself diving headfirst into the rocks below, and the results ain’t pretty.

I think there’s a lesson there, Speaker Boehner.

4. “The Buffalo Jump”:

Buffalo_jump

In the days before the arrival of the horse in North America, Native American tribesmen would whip herds of buffalo into a fearful frenzy and then stampede the herd into jumping off a nearby cliff, where they became easy pickings. And if you think about it, frightening others into jumping off a cliff en masse remains a great business model. Just ask Rush Limbaugh, Grover Norquist and Fox News.

5. “BASE jumping:”

BASE is an acronym for Buildings, Antennas, Spans (such as bridges), and Earth (cliffs), all of which become launching points for daredevil jumpers. Early BASE-jumping pioneers used parachutes to break their falls, but as seen in the video above, the latest innovation is wingsuits (no, not this kind of wingsuit), which turn the jumper into the equivalent of Rocket J. Squirrel.

Like Thelma and Louise, base jumpers go over the edge on purpose. Like Wile E. Coyote, base jumpers do a lot of careful planning. (They do not, however, order their equipment from Acme.) And like the Acalpulco cliff divers, base jumpers have every intention of surviving, and they do … most of the time, anyway.

It remains, however, very dangerous and is not for the faint of heart.

– Jay Bookman

315 comments Add your comment

Keep Up the Good Fight!

December 3rd, 2012
11:32 am

But you really don’t get the full effect until you add in the Republicans screams as we go off…..sort of like going over the big hill of the rollercoaster…but no weeeeessss

CJ

December 3rd, 2012
11:34 am

No need to go over any fiscal cliff (so-called). All we need is for House Republicans to extend the tax cuts for 98 percent of Americans and 97 percent of small businesses. In other words, pass the tax cuts that Republicans and Democrats agree on. Then, save the bickering over the rest for next year.

Why Republicans won’t pass these tax cuts and get the issue behind them is beyond me. They’re just digging the hole deeper for themselves.

(Enjoyed the post, Jay!)

TaxPayer

December 3rd, 2012
11:35 am

I think I’ll take safe passage to the bottom of the cliff and observe the splats that Republicans make upon landing. I’m thinking each picture will be worth a thousand words so I should have more than enough for a book in no time at all. Now, if I can get a spot on The Daily Show…

USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)

December 3rd, 2012
11:36 am

oh, and you will also be able to kiss that AA rating goodbye …

but, hey … wth, right?

Keep Up the Good Fight!

December 3rd, 2012
11:36 am

Side note: When did Bain buy Acme and outsource all the jobs?

Brosephus™

December 3rd, 2012
11:37 am

Seems like the GOP 2001-2012 took the #2 approach in trying to make Obama a one-termer.

:lol:

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
11:38 am

‘cept Republican cliff divers say things like “nothing will go wrong’ or ‘the bad stuff’s exaggerated’ or ‘Let the bad stuff happen! Only the idiots get hurt!”

Still haven’t heard Republicans lay out their cuts to reduce the deficit…..just engage in a PR campagn saying the White House isn’t serious -

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
11:38 am

Finally, someone woke Jay up lol. Good to see you up and at it Jay bright eyed and bushy tailed at the crack of NOON!!!!!!!!!!

Might as well jump…….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlq0lYB3iSM

Joe Hussein Mama

December 3rd, 2012
11:38 am

That “Fearless Felix” dude — who did the space jump back in October — apparently skydived ONTO some skyscraper in Europe and then immediately BASE jumped right off the building some years ago.

I believe this is more-or-less what Congressional Republicans have in mind.

USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)

December 3rd, 2012
11:39 am

“Still haven’t heard Republicans lay out their cuts to reduce the deficit…..just engage in a PR campagn saying the White House isn’t serious -”

and parrot the “the president doesn’t have a plan” lie.

Nancy Pelosi

December 3rd, 2012
11:39 am

We have to go over the cliff so we can see what happens next.

getalife

December 3rd, 2012
11:42 am

The gop are cartoon characters ignoring the American people and blowing the 14 election early.

the cat

December 3rd, 2012
11:42 am

Jay-that was fun, thanks.

USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)

December 3rd, 2012
11:43 am

Fly-On-The-Wall

December 3rd, 2012
11:43 am

The Repubs will blame the Dems on taking all of the water from under the cliff diver. If we would just cut taxes more then there’d be more water for the cliff diver!

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

December 3rd, 2012
11:44 am

54 TREES…

drudgey spam

RB from Gwinnett

December 3rd, 2012
11:45 am

“Why Republicans won’t pass these tax cuts and get the issue behind them is beyond me. They’re just digging the hole deeper for themselves.”

Let me get this straight.. In your simple mind, raising taxes on those making over $250k is a “tax cut” for everybody else???

Only in liberal land……

Brosephus™

December 3rd, 2012
11:45 am

TaxPayer

December 3rd, 2012
11:46 am

It’s comforting to know that the Republicans do not suffer from cremnophobia. After all, it’s not the fall from the cliff that will get you. It’s the landing. What is the word for fear of a hard landing anyway.

ByteMe - Got ilk?

December 3rd, 2012
11:47 am

Repeat after me:

IT’S NOT A CLIFF.
IT’S NOT A CLIFF.

It’s a curb on a cracked sidewalk. What’s on the other side of the street is better shops. Crossing the street can be scary, but…

IT’S NOT A CLIFF.

Corbin Sharpe. Baby Boomer leech...and earned it!

December 3rd, 2012
11:49 am

Maybe, just maybe, since the GOP is historically for “Big Business”, and since “Big Business” is moving jobs elsewhere, all this fiscal cliff business is just a smoke screen to hide this…

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/finance/20121202/AS.China_s.Reach.Trading.Places/

RB from Gwinnett

December 3rd, 2012
11:51 am

Bro, I don’t ever again care to hear anything AT&T’s CEO or any other employee of the company has to say. WORST SERVICE EVER!!!!

Corbin Sharpe. Baby Boomer leech...and earned it!

December 3rd, 2012
11:53 am

Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)

December 3rd, 2012
11:54 am

Well, I ain’t worried about this Physical Cliff long as I got Bubba MacPherson to do my tax returns. With Bubba working his magic I know I’m going to get a huge refund thanks to this earned income thingie he uses.

And it will be good for us all if the spending cuts slash the welfare to Those People and the lazy bums that don’t work and won’t go out and find good jobs like being a order taker at McDonalds or Burger King.

Anyhow if I go off of a cliff there’ll be alot of people going with me. But they won’t have Bubba on their side to cushion the landing.

Have a good Monday everybody.

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
11:55 am

RB from Gwinnett

December 3rd, 2012
11:51 am

Bro, I don’t ever again care to hear anything AT&T’s CEO or any other employee of the company has to say. WORST SERVICE EVER!!!!
++++++++++++++++++++++

On that we definitely agree. I have fire them 5 or 6 times. (They keep buying companies I replace them with lol like BellSouth).

Remember when they were one of the most respected companies in the world? They went from first to worst in record time. I always felt that the CEO and board of directors who did that to them shouldn’t have been fired, they should have been escorted out of the building into the parking lot, given a cigarette, and then been shot.

the cat

December 3rd, 2012
11:57 am

Fred and RB-Beg to differ! The worst company in the world is Comcast.

Erwin's cat

December 3rd, 2012
11:58 am

Remember when they were one of the most respected companies in the world? They went from first to worst in record time. I always felt that the CEO and board of directors who did that to them shouldn’t have been fired

It wasn’t a CEO, it was the govt…that whole monopoly thing that forced them to split up just so they could go and buy them back

Brosephus™

December 3rd, 2012
11:59 am

RB

Am I supposed to care about your service? I don’t pay for it, so excuse me for sounding completely detached in saying I don’t give a rat’s ass about how you were treated. Given that their stock is ok, they must be taking care of somebody. I don’t personally use AT&T, so I have no idea about their service.

JamVet

December 3rd, 2012
11:59 am

We have to fight the cliff jumpers here so that we don’t have to fight them over there.

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
11:59 am

the cat: I’ve never had a problem with Comcast……..

USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)

December 3rd, 2012
12:00 pm

USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)

December 3rd, 2012
12:01 pm

Fred – (and RB, for that matter) – I think of AT&T, I think of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDa5fGwwIes

(start at :30)

JackThrock

December 3rd, 2012
12:01 pm

Jay – Reposting question here re your tax article from the other day. Do you happen to know?

Jay – Two questions:

1. If the rates were equal to 1980 rates, how much extra revenue would the government collect?
2. If the rates were changed to match 1980’s rates, what would the yearly deficit be?

There are two sides to the equation: taxes and spending. One can make a qualitative argument that we are not overtaxed, but undertaxed, as you just have. But can you also make the same argument that our spending is in line relative to taxes, even at the higher rates?

How Obama Could Kick Republican A$$ (If He Wanted To)

December 3rd, 2012
12:02 pm

the cat

December 3rd, 2012
12:02 pm

Fred-give it time, you will.

Dunwoody Granny

December 3rd, 2012
12:02 pm

Jay, did you forget the most famous cliff dive of all, the Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid? The fall alone will kill you. Jump anyway.

Morality?

December 3rd, 2012
12:03 pm

For Obama voters a fall over the fiscal cliff is deserved.

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
12:03 pm

ByteMe – Maybe $300-$400 per month in additional Federal income taxes is not a problem for you, but that’s not true for all of us. It is not a curb, it is at a minimum an extremely steep hill. For me, it is a cliff.

getalife

December 3rd, 2012
12:03 pm

We are fighting for tax cuts and stopping the gop from adding regulations to our economy.

We are cons.

Jay

December 3rd, 2012
12:04 pm

Granny, I unfortunately DID forget that one! You’re right, it too is a classic.

Goldie

December 3rd, 2012
12:05 pm

Thanks Jay — very enjoyable analysis!

:)

RB from Gwinnett

December 3rd, 2012
12:05 pm

“. I always felt that the CEO and board of directors who did that to them shouldn’t have been fired, they should have been escorted out of the building into the parking lot, given a cigarette, and then been shot.”

Even worse, they should be required to call their own customer service once a day….a fate worse than death!!

getalife

December 3rd, 2012
12:05 pm

They are fighting for no tax cuts and adding regulations to our economy.

The cons are libs.

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
12:07 pm

JackThrock

” But can you also make the same argument that our spending is in line relative to taxes, even at the higher rates?”

You must be new here. Jay has repeatedly written that our spending is way out of balance with revenue.

It’s what happens when you enact two major tax cuts and fight two wars and provide all kinds of new social benefits and exempt large groups of people from paying income taxes.

Like Republicans did under the previous president.

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
12:07 pm

Erwin’s cat

December 3rd, 2012
11:58 am

Remember when they were one of the most respected companies in the world? They went from first to worst in record time. I always felt that the CEO and board of directors who did that to them shouldn’t have been fired

It wasn’t a CEO, it was the govt…that whole monopoly thing that forced them to split up just so they could go and buy them back
++++++++++++++++++

Yes it WAS a CEO, during the time period I am talking about. Thanks for playing.

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
12:08 pm

A bigger problem than the rate increases are the changes in tax brackets. Going back to the good-ole-Clinton days means the middle class pays a higher rate at a much lower income threshold.

ByteMe - Got ilk?

December 3rd, 2012
12:09 pm

ByteMe – Maybe $300-$400 per month in additional Federal income taxes is not a problem for you, but that’s not true for all of us. It is not a curb, it is at a minimum an extremely steep hill. For me, it is a cliff.

I’m guessing that it won’t be that for you. The numbers they’ve been throwing around in the media are “average”, which means that people who make more will pay more (and push up the average), and people who pay less will pay less (like you).

IT’S NOT A CLIFF.

The resulting -600 billion to GDP is about 4% of GDP in an economy growing about 2%, so that takes us to -2% GDP, which is a recession, but also a very mild one. After about 5-6 quarters, the economic changes will work their way through the economy and we’ll force a lot of capital to get freed up by not needing so much debt to fund the government, so what’s on the other side is going to be most excellent.

Jay

December 3rd, 2012
12:10 pm

Granny, I just found that snippet on youtube — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IbStIb9XXw — but it contains a word I can’t post here.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

December 3rd, 2012
12:10 pm

Even worse, they should be required to call their own customer service once a day….a fate worse than death!!

My experience with AT&T’s customer service is vastly different than yours. Whether it’s about my cell phone or air-card, their personnel are knowledgeable, helpful and courteous.

Brosephus™

December 3rd, 2012
12:10 pm

Maybe $300-$400 per month in additional Federal income taxes is not a problem for you, but that’s not true for all of us.

And what kind of income are you earning so that a 3% rate increase will lead to an additional $300 – $400 per mont in additional Federal income taxes?

Mick

December 3rd, 2012
12:10 pm

Yes, ATT is a mess, even here in south florida. If you have to call them get ready for a network of clusterfrickers, it’s that bad…

indigo

December 3rd, 2012
12:10 pm

Maybe Republicans have decided that if they can’t serve their Big Business masters any longer and, therefore, are no longer eligible for the corporate financial gravy train, then political life is just not worth living any longer so, what the hell, right?

MANGLER

December 3rd, 2012
12:11 pm

The GOP didn’t compromise on anything for 4 years because they were very publicly setting Obama up for failure so that they could win 2012, do things their way, and take credit any positive outcomes while shifting blame for any negative outcomes back on the administration they very publicly obstructed.
Why would they want to compromise now? They won’t be able to take credit for anything positive happening, but sure as heck will blame the administration that they are still very publicly obstructing for any fallout from the sequestration.
The irony is, well, beyond that this whole deal was created by the GOP for the GOP to take credit for, is that sequestration will immediately slam the defense industry and it’s subsidiaries. You know, the ones that the GOP insists need more money that they already don’t need. Similar to the bed tax over on Kyle’s blog, only with six to 9 more zeroes after the comma.

Erwin's cat

December 3rd, 2012
12:11 pm

Really Fred…which CEO was it?

In the interest of full disclosure, I was once employed by the “death star” so my memory of history might be accurate

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
12:12 pm

Byte Me – I calculated the difference in tax based on the rates AND the brackets that were in place during the Clinton Administration compared to the current brackets and rates. $300-$400 per month. Not something I look forward to.

Doggone/GA

December 3rd, 2012
12:12 pm

“I’ve never had a problem with Comcast……..”

And I’ve never had a problem with AT&T

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
12:12 pm

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
12:07 pm

JackThrock

” But can you also make the same argument that our spending is in line relative to taxes, even at the higher rates?”

You must be new here. Jay has repeatedly written that our spending is way out of balance with revenue.

It’s what happens when you enact two major tax cuts and fight two wars and provide all kinds of new social benefits and exempt large groups of people from paying income taxes.

Like Republicans did under the previous president.
++++++++++++++++++++++

Nice try Paul. Jockstrap here has asked that question several different ways (2 now on this thread alone) and it has been answered. Since it’s not the answer he WANTS it to be, he just keeps on asking and asking and asking………

I guess he thinks he’s making some type of point. I think he’s high lol.

Adam

December 3rd, 2012
12:12 pm

Hahaha I love it.

Hey, where’s EJ Moosa and kayaker?

alex

December 3rd, 2012
12:13 pm

“great business model”—stupid

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
12:14 pm

Brosephus – You’re ignoring the real problem. If things go back to the way they were in the Clinton Administration, the higher tax rates kicked in at a much lower income level. Tax increases of 3% are simplistic and assume that the brackets stay the same.

Adam

December 3rd, 2012
12:14 pm

RB: Let me get this straight.. In your simple mind, raising taxes on those making over $250k is a “tax cut” for everybody else???

I wonder if you will be saying the same thing after the taxes get reset and then it’s the DEMOCRATS proposing a tax cut.

This, in my opinion, is EXACTLY what Obama wants. Because then he is in an even stronger position. And all these Republicans opposing things now will wish, as they no doubt wish from the debt ceiling talks, that they had taken the deal.

Joe Hussein Mama

December 3rd, 2012
12:15 pm

Fred — “Remember when they were one of the most respected companies in the world? They went from first to worst in record time.”

I thought that happened to Mindspring/Earthlink. They went from absolutely outstanding to not worth a cold cowpie in the space of a year or so.

ByteMe - Got ilk?

December 3rd, 2012
12:15 pm

Byte Me – I calculated the difference in tax based on the rates AND the brackets that were in place during the Clinton Administration compared to the current brackets and rates. $300-$400 per month. Not something I look forward to.

Excellent, so apples to apples. If it’s really 300-400 a month in federal taxes, then you’re making more than enough money, so complaining isn’t remotely interesting. :)

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
12:17 pm

Fred

Thanks.

We do seem to get a lot of that here with a certain category of political attitude, don’t we?

BTW, all, Grover Norquist was interviewed on NPRs Diane Rehm show today. Audio and transcript on her NPR website.

Amazing Grover would make an appearance on a publicly-funded, liberal media show Republicans want to eliminate, isn’t it?

Adam

December 3rd, 2012
12:17 pm

Hey I’ll complain about my taxes being more than they were last year, but I sure won’t act like I’ll vote Republican because of it. They are the ones, after all, who won’t take the deal that would keep my tax rates down.

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
12:18 pm

Not when you pay $1500/mo for health insurance. You have no idea what my income level is. You have no idea what my itemized deductions are. The bigger problem is the changes in tax brackets.

Joe Hussein Mama

December 3rd, 2012
12:18 pm

Adam — “Hey, where’s EJ Moosa and kayaker?”

I can’t speak for Moosa, but K71 was here a couple days after the election and he was FURIOUS. I mean, he was *this* close to a stroke furious.

So I told him that if Jay’s blog was causing him that much upset and anger, then maybe he ought to take a break from it for a while and come back when he’s cooled down. And since he’s a doctor, I think he saw the sense in that.

So I haven’t seen him since, and I guess he’s still cooling off.

straitroad

December 3rd, 2012
12:18 pm

It’s a real shame that so many of our citizens have been convinced that their time should be spent not on being industrious or productive but being envious of others who see opportunity in this country. No amount of someone else’s money will make these folks content.

0311/8541/5811/1811/1801

December 3rd, 2012
12:18 pm

“A technical guide to cliff-jumping, fiscal and otherwise”

Our country jumped off the “collective cliff” when you libs. voted in Obama.

Keep Up the Good Fight!

December 3rd, 2012
12:19 pm

RB is complaining about his ATT Obamaphone?

STUPID LIBERAL

December 3rd, 2012
12:19 pm

are you not TAXED enough already ??

income both state and federal
sales
home
car tag
gas
cell phone
insurance, car and now health
toll roads

lets not forget other ways our government makes money..

not wearing a seat belt ?? $125
Going 8 mph over speed limit ?? $200
go through a yellow light with a traffic camera ?? $100
get caught with a plant ?? $1000 plus probation.

if you a single man, you better not have any kids, there is a special tax just for you..

Are you making more than 50K a year and still single ?? They have a special tax just for you also..

yeah , we are taxed enough already..

0311/8541/5811/1811/1801

December 3rd, 2012
12:19 pm

O.K. NFL players should not be able to own guns.

Next.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

December 3rd, 2012
12:20 pm

…someone else’s money…

There’s your sign.

RB from Gwinnett

December 3rd, 2012
12:22 pm

Byte, “If it’s really 300-400 a month in federal taxes, then you’re making more than enough money,”

So YOU get to decide who has “enough” money now and who doesn’t? Let me guess, YOU don’t have enough, so you shouldn’t be asked to contribute to OUR debt, but other people who have more than YOU should be. Is that about right, Byte? Everybody pays but YOU?

fedup

December 3rd, 2012
12:22 pm

These “UNION” of fat cats will sponsor the fat cats like the Boner and all. So they don’t care which cliff diving they take part in. They are laughing to the bank with other “UNION” money.

Brosephus™

December 3rd, 2012
12:23 pm

You’re ignoring the real problem. If things go back to the way they were in the Clinton Administration, the higher tax rates kicked in at a much lower income level.

You know what else happens if things go back to the Clinton rates??? No more f**king talk about the 47% because, under Clinton and his rates, about 33% – 35% of taxpayers had no net fed income tax liability. As far as I’m concerned, those rates should have ended in 2010 just as the GOP passed them. I personally would not have voted to extend them then, and I would not vote to extend them now. It’s a tax sale that we can not afford.

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
12:23 pm

Jay

December 3rd, 2012
12:23 pm

Fred, cease the name-calling.

And in Fred’s honor, the word “asshat” will now put you into automatic moderation. Call it the “Fred Rule”.

larry

December 3rd, 2012
12:25 pm

What if you are scared of heights?

weetamoe

December 3rd, 2012
12:26 pm

Actually all of your usual suspects/villains are disinterested observers as far as qui bono. Limbaugh and others have no compelling interest or authority in the jump or not jump contest, but Norquist has I think the best solution for negotiations. Put the whole mess on TV. Keep the promise of transparency. The people will see who lies. Not enough saw Obama’s blatant lie about Fast and Furious on Univision, and there was not much coverage of his lies at the UN or about his trips to China, Burma, and Cambodia. Let’s see him show some leadership by doing his job before the nation.

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
12:26 pm

So the only option for financial survival is to cheat on your taxes I suppose. I’ll have start donating my contributions of used underwear ala Clinton. Used underwear does have such a high resale value.

Adam

December 3rd, 2012
12:26 pm

JHM: Vacation from areas such as this after an election can be quite nice. You may notice my reduced time here. I finally realized spending so much time focusing on the election prevented me from doing other real world stuff like building my game ideas :)

By the way, if you or anyone else is interested, I need a bunch of people to give me feedback on HTML5 games I create sometime in the hopefully near future. All you need is an updated browser and an interest in playing games. It also helps if you have Facebook or a smartphone or a tablet.

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
12:27 pm

Sorry Jay, but his constant “arguing” has gotten on my last nerve. NOW he’s telling me that events in my life didn’t happen? Really? If that’s not a buttox fedora move, then nothing is. Is he gonna tellme next that I’m not fat or something lol?

Adam

December 3rd, 2012
12:28 pm

Brospehus: You know what else happens if things go back to the Clinton rates??? No more f**king talk about the 47% because, under Clinton and his rates, about 33% – 35% of taxpayers had no net fed income tax liability. As far as I’m concerned, those rates should have ended in 2010 just as the GOP passed them. I personally would not have voted to extend them then, and I would not vote to extend them now. It’s a tax sale that we can not afford.

Raising a glass to this!

Adam

December 3rd, 2012
12:28 pm

LOL buttox fedora

indigo

December 3rd, 2012
12:29 pm

Scout

Your idol, George W. Bush, took us all over the cliff with two useless credit card wars and the worst recession since the great depression. We’re still trying to claw our way back up.

getalife

December 3rd, 2012
12:29 pm

The cons left politics when they realized their party is fighting against tax cuts and fighting for regulations.

Their hypocrisy only goes so far.

USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)

December 3rd, 2012
12:29 pm

“Hey, where’s EJ Moosa and kayaker?”

I thought kayaker was now the source of the “leech” posts.

Erwin's cat

December 3rd, 2012
12:29 pm

Fred…I will consider you fear of felines in future posts

Brosephus™

December 3rd, 2012
12:29 pm

Call it the “Fred Rule”.

How will very creative derivative names fall under said rule?

Corbin Sharpe. Baby Boomer leech...and earned it!

December 3rd, 2012
12:30 pm

Just exactly what is an azz chapeau?

getalife

December 3rd, 2012
12:31 pm

Dang, now Fred is adding regulations.

Corbin Sharpe. Baby Boomer leech...and earned it!

December 3rd, 2012
12:31 pm

Does butt beret count?

Thomas Heyward Jr

December 3rd, 2012
12:31 pm

“Like Thelma and Louise, base jumpers go over the edge on purpose. Like Wile E. Coyote, base jumpers do a lot of careful planning. (They do not, however, order their equipment from Acme.) And like the Acalpulco cliff divers, base jumpers have every intention of surviving, and they do … most of the time, anyway.”
.
Thelma, Louise, Mr. Coyote, AND Juan the cliff diver ..as well as any Obama/Romney-bot…….all have something in common.
.
They arel paid entertainment for the growing majority of basic-decency-type freedom-loving Americans ………who only scoff (and laugh)at Washington’s dishonest and immoral theatrics.
.
Keep up the good work.
.
Forward Liberty

Joe Hussein Mama

December 3rd, 2012
12:31 pm

Fred — “buttox fedora”

FULL OF WIN

clem

December 3rd, 2012
12:32 pm

if they fail to act before the cliff, then first order of business for new congress is to cut their pay until they get deal done….cut the wh too…….no tickee no laundry

TaxPayer

December 3rd, 2012
12:32 pm

Actually I think I’ll forgo the earplugs. Listening to Republicans whine about being forced to pay for their own debt is entertaining.

Jm

December 3rd, 2012
12:33 pm

I jump off cliffs all the time

In NW GA

I use a hanglider, of course

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
12:34 pm

How did throwing money at welfare recipients become my own debt?

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
12:34 pm

Corbin Sharpe

Well, if you’re looking down on one, that middle crease on the top does kinda look like what Fred described that’ll get you banned -

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
12:36 pm

Any acceptable substitutions Jay? How about arse derby? Butt bonnet? Bun bowler? Cheek chapeau? Rear sombrero? Tail topper? Bottom helmet?

Anything?

godless heathen - fiscal cliff dweller

December 3rd, 2012
12:36 pm

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
12:36 pm

Nunna

“How did throwing money at welfare recipients become my own debt?”

’cause Exxon and Lockheed wield a lot of political clout -

USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)

December 3rd, 2012
12:36 pm

“Does butt beret count?”

how about Tuchus Toque?

Behind Beanie?

Fanny Fedora (I know fedora was used earlier – I’m still borrowing it)

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

December 3rd, 2012
12:36 pm

Jm

December 3rd, 2012
12:37 pm

Is a$$hat banned also?

Because I use that to describe what MARTA uses every time it goes down to the state Capitol

Babatunde

December 3rd, 2012
12:38 pm

To those great scenes you could add one more Jay, Bill Murray and Punxsutawney Phil going over the cliff in the pickup in Groundhog Day. Bill and Phil survive, maybe the lesson is we can survive the fiscal cliff.

Joe Hussein Mama

December 3rd, 2012
12:38 pm

N. Yobinnes — “How did throwing money at welfare recipients become my own debt?”

Blackwater and Halliburton each ate a LOT of school lunches.

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
12:39 pm

Paul – corporate income taxes go to pay “our debt” too.

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
12:40 pm

Double taxed at that.

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
12:41 pm

Corbin: butt beret: I like it.

UnU:how about Tuchus Toque?

Behind Beanie?

Fanny Fedora (I know fedora was used earlier – I’m still borrowing it)

Some more good ones lol.

JamVet

December 3rd, 2012
12:41 pm

Is the stinky Stetson also verboten?

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
12:43 pm

Nunna

Yes, they do.

Now… care to guess how many of those corporations pay no income tax?

How about General Electric?

Boeing?

Verizon?

Mattel?

Tenet Healthcare?

DuPont?

I could go on for a couple dozen more.

Data. It’s a wonderful antidote for sound bites and slogans.

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
12:43 pm

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
12:39 pm

Paul – corporate income taxes go to pay “our debt” too.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Really/ how much “corporate tax” does GE pay? Now how much corporate WELFARE do they get?

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
12:44 pm

How many of those companies made a profit?

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
12:44 pm

Nunna

How is a corporation ‘double taxed’?

Especially when they pay no income tax in the first place.

You sure you want to continue with this discussion?

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
12:45 pm

LOL Paul, great minds think alike. Unfortunately though you were thinking like me not a great mind……… :mrgreen:

I got the better end of that bargain.

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
12:45 pm

Paul – corporate income is taxed and dividends are also taxed. Not too difficult to understand.

smooveb

December 3rd, 2012
12:45 pm

We have a two party system. We have the stupid party (R) and the evil (D) party. Occasionally, the stupid party and the evil party get together and pass a law that is both stupid and evil. This is called bi-partisanship. The fiscal cliff has always been avoidable. The two parties have known this for years. I rest my case.

YouLibs

December 3rd, 2012
12:46 pm

0311

“Our country jumped off the “collective cliff” when you libs. voted in Obama.”

Oh, so it’s all my fault now?

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
12:46 pm

Nunna

“How many of those companies made a profit?”

You really should do a little research before you take a position.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/11/03/360185/30-corporations-no-taxes/

Now ask, how did those laws that allowed companies to show losses get passed?

Or, how did the laws that allow earnings to accrue to low-tax countries get passed?

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
12:47 pm

Kam: Nice catch. I never thought to google it. Do you remember the guy that registered Jesus.com years ago lol? He was funny.

Joe Hussein Mama

December 3rd, 2012
12:48 pm

N. Yobinnes — “Paul – corporate income is taxed and dividends are also taxed. Not too difficult to understand.”

And who’s paying the tax on those dividends again? :roll:

Nero

December 3rd, 2012
12:49 pm

Embrace the Cliff!!! The across the board tax increases and spending cuts are gonna be exquisite. The Boomer leeches are gonna squeal! Haha!!! :)

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
12:49 pm

Nunna

Not this again.

A corporation pays tax. Maybe.

Investors make a profit and pay tax.

How’s that double?

You go to work for, say, Trader Joe’s.

They make a profit and get taxed.

You get paid and get taxed.

Is the corporation double taxed?

You take after-tax money and start a company.

The company makes a profit and pays tax.

You earn a return and pay tax.

Should you be exempt from any tax?

Sheesh.

It’s so predictable. You make a post, get a few errors pointed out to you, then you default to the old ‘but corporations and investors are taxed twice on earnings!!!” nonsense.

Now, Nunna, back to those other questions about profitable corporations not paying taxes….

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
12:51 pm

Paul – Your article shows all those companies with negative tax (which doesn’t exist). The only way to have negative tax is to have loss carryovers or credits which are generally in place to benefit workers or achieve some environmental goal.

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
12:52 pm

Nero

December 3rd, 2012
12:49 pm

Embrace the Cliff!!! The across the board tax increases and spending cuts are gonna be exquisite. The Boomer leeches are gonna squeal! Haha!!!
++++++++++++++

Everyone will squeal, but I agree with you. Heck, I thought Obama should have not extended the tax cuts 2 years ago.

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
12:52 pm

Paul – the income is double taxed.

Corbin Sharpe. Baby Boomer leech...and earned it!

December 3rd, 2012
12:53 pm

Paul @ 1234…. :lol:

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
12:54 pm

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
12:51 pm

Paul – Your article shows all those companies with negative tax (which doesn’t exist). The only way to have negative tax is to have loss carryovers or credits which are generally in place to benefit workers or achieve some environmental goal.
++++++++++++++++

No, “negative tax” as you describe it is when a company not only DOESN’T PAT TAXES, but they also get GOVERNMENT HANDOUTS which are sometimes referred to as CORPORATE WELFARE.

Corbin Sharpe. Baby Boomer leech...and earned it!

December 3rd, 2012
12:54 pm

USinUK,

“Tuchus Toque?”

:lol: :lol:

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
12:55 pm

OK Paul, please explain why interest income doesn’t get taxed at two different levels? Why is dividend income so inherently evil, while interest income gets a free pass?

Corbin Sharpe. Baby Boomer leech...and earned it!

December 3rd, 2012
12:55 pm

I have a question…If you file taxes every year and get a refund, is that “not paying taxes”?

Joe Hussein Mama

December 3rd, 2012
12:56 pm

N. Yobinnes — “Paul – the income is double taxed.”

When businesses create jobs and hire Americans to fill those jobs, I’m all for giving them tax breaks.

However, the incentivization of wealth accumulation is absolutely stupid. Wealth accumulation is its own reward and doesn’t need incentives.

In short — businesses that engage in beneficial economic activity — e.g. putting Americans to work = great. Otherwise, meh.

TaxPayer

December 3rd, 2012
12:56 pm

Did someone bring up those poor overtaxed corporations? By all means, let us review:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/us/how-local-taxpayers-bankroll-corporations.html?hp

Jerome Horwitz

December 3rd, 2012
12:57 pm

Kamster – What’s happening to your Blues? They came out on fire and now are about to fall off the radar. Man U and City are about to walk away with the EPL.

barking frog

December 3rd, 2012
12:57 pm

The GOP is hoping that everyone will realize how high taxes were under
Clinton and welcome them back to reduce rates again.

Joe Hussein Mama

December 3rd, 2012
12:58 pm

N, Yobinnes — “Why is dividend income so inherently evil”

You might do better if you stopped trying to presume on the thoughts and opinions of those who don’t necessarily agree with you.

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
12:58 pm

Joe – There is a little thing called “accumulated earnings tax”. Accumulated earnings are taxed an additional amount. It’s a relatively low threshhold for huge corporations too.

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
12:58 pm

I’m such a bad boy. I shouldn’t taunt Jay. He’s gonna give me a red card if I don’t stop………..

(but I did test the auto snagger for the official version of Butt beret lol, it works).

http://tinyurl.com/cowva5b

Nero

December 3rd, 2012
1:00 pm

We should double down and also get rid of all tax deductions. Institute a minimum corporate tax and make all capital gains fall under state and federal income tax.

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
1:00 pm

Corbin – as long as your tax was more than zero you paid tax. When you get a big refund you are financing the Feds without any return on your investment.

Welcome to the Occupation

December 3rd, 2012
1:02 pm

So, is Fred being an [ Fred rule invoked ] again?

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
1:03 pm

Nunna

” The only way to have negative tax is to have loss carryovers or credits which are generally in place to benefit workers or achieve some environmental goal.”

Source?

But it’s irrelevant. The tax code is structured so they pay no income tax. If they were low-income Americans, Republicans would call them leeches.

” please explain why interest income doesn’t get taxed at two different levels? Why is dividend income so inherently evil, while interest income gets a free pass?”

Because some groups have the clout to get favorable treatment.

But you’re getting farther afield from your original contention. Plus asking questions on unrelated topics.

There’s always that pattern from some.

Joe Hussein Mama

December 3rd, 2012
1:03 pm

N. Yobinnes — “Joe – There is a little thing called “accumulated earnings tax”. Accumulated earnings are taxed an additional amount. It’s a relatively low threshhold for huge corporations too.”

Accumulated *retained* earnings.

Put those earnings to work *employing* more Americans, and I have no problem extending a tax break.

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
1:03 pm

Oh and Kam…….. at yesterday’s tourny, one of the U12 girls got a red card. Warren (the DOC for TYSA, check out his resume below) said it was the first time he had seen that my buddy said lol.

http://www.tysa.com/warren-van-der-westhuizen/

Regnad Kcin

December 3rd, 2012
1:04 pm

Gluteal helmet?

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
1:05 pm

Welcome @ 1:02: :lol: (I wish they had the thumbs up emoticon).

Wilbur

December 3rd, 2012
1:07 pm

Before the election Obama and the far left libs were all about a “balanced approach” to deficit reduction. After the election they only want to raise taxes on a few rich people in a move they know won’t fix the problem. Can you say liar?

Now that Obama is president again he has to get the country back on its feet from his four year nightmare. It’s his watch and his responsibility. He also has to fix the structural deficit. The ideological reflex to “soak the rich” won’t measure up when examined in the light of history’s judgement.

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
1:07 pm

Per GE annual reports – Income taxes for 2011 = 28.5%, 2010 = 7.3%.

Corbin Sharpe. Baby Boomer leech...and earned it!

December 3rd, 2012
1:11 pm

Could an azz hat be a cranial diaper?

rc

December 3rd, 2012
1:11 pm

What a stupid article Sum it all up for the lib’s “it’s Bush’s fault”

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
1:12 pm

Wilbur

December 3rd, 2012
1:07 pm

Before the election Obama and the far left libs were all about a “balanced approach” to deficit reduction. After the election they only want to raise taxes on a few rich people in a move they know won’t fix the problem. Can you say liar?
+++++++++++++++++++++++

Yes we can, but if I (quite correctly) call you a liar for that big fat lie that you just told there I’ll be out of here quicker than a hat off an ass backing up in high wind………….

So I guess you get sort of a free pass on your lie. Try the truth next time, we’d appreciate it. :lol:

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
1:13 pm

Corbin: Wouldn’t that be a polar opposite as it were?

Corbin Sharpe. Baby Boomer leech...and earned it!

December 3rd, 2012
1:15 pm

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
1:13 pm

Well yes…but as we both know…opposites attract!

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
1:16 pm

Fred – please explain where Wilbur told a lie? Perhaps that Obama advocated a “balanced approach” in the first place?

Finn de Siècle (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)

December 3rd, 2012
1:16 pm

Now Acme does make some really nice giant magnets……

The cartoons where Wiley is on the rocket skates and the skates take off but Wiley’s head takes a few seconds to leave the screen used to leave us rolling. Usually he would look right back at us an blink a few times with a look like “ohoh, is it too late to rethink…..”

Mick

December 3rd, 2012
1:17 pm

“it’s Bush’s fault”

Yes, it’s the gift that keeps giving…

Nero

December 3rd, 2012
1:17 pm

Sequestration is gonna be the best Christmas present we’ve had in a long time. Time to pay the Boomer leeches bills. The national butt hurt will be epic! :)

Joe Hussein Mama

December 3rd, 2012
1:18 pm

N. Yobinnes — “please explain where Wilbur told a lie?”

RIght here:

“After the election they only want to raise taxes on a few rich people”

Anyone with a modicum of honesty and half a working memory will recognize Wilbur’s lie right off.

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
1:19 pm

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
1:16 pm

Fred – please explain where Wilbur told a lie?
++++++++++++++++++++++

Sure that’s easy peasy:

After the election they only want to raise taxes on a few rich people in a move they know won’t fix the problem.

That’s a big fat lie and you kn ow it. It IS the current talking point lie by FOX radio and the talk show radio idiots, but it’s a lie nonetheless.

Can you give me a harder task next time? That one was so easy you could have done it……..

Keep Up the Good Fight!

December 3rd, 2012
1:19 pm

Well its clear that many do not comprehend negotiating. The President proposed the plan that he was elected on. Now if the Republicans don’t like it, its their job to make a counter proposal and see where the sides will meet. If the GOP wants medicare cuts, then propose them. If they want to close tax loopholes then make the proposals. Obama has said he’ll negotiate. Take him up on it.

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
1:20 pm

Joe – if the administration gets it way, there is nothing factually incorrect about that statement. If they go the fiscal cliff way, then all of us will pay more taxes.

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
1:21 pm

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
1:20 pm

Joe – if the administration gets it way, there is nothing factually incorrect about that statement.
+++++++++++++++++++

And there ya go REPEATING the lie in a slightly different manner.

Why lie? Why not tell the truth? Is your position so weak?

alex

December 3rd, 2012
1:22 pm

It appears to me that this thread is an EXCELLENT example of why a simplification of the tax code wold be instructive…. and I thank GOD that I am NOT a tax Attorney ( but am very glad I have one!)

Jack ®

December 3rd, 2012
1:23 pm

I knew it was gonna be Boehner’s fault when I read the really really catchy title to this piece. So, let us avoid the ‘cliff’ by requiring all those that make over $250K annually to sign a pledge: the pledge being a promise to never ever enjoy the money you earn and always always feel really bad enough to sign over the excess over $250K to the U.S. Treasury. It can be shown on your Sch A as a legal contribution deduction. And then you’ll feel so much better knowing that Obama really loves you.

oops

December 3rd, 2012
1:23 pm

taxes don’t matter

according to libs anyway

jump away

its fun

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
1:23 pm

At least I have a position Fred. Too bad you can’t say the same. Are tax increases proposed for all taxpayers at all income levels? Unless, we go over the fiscal cliff, the answer is no. Is that really so hard for you to understand?

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
1:24 pm

And in other bad news (for Republican who want our Country to fall) auto sales were up for the month of November.

http://www.ajc.com/ap/ap/automotive/chrysler-sales-up-14-percent-in-november/nTLfp/

alex

December 3rd, 2012
1:25 pm

Keep up…now there you go…Exactly and thank you for being succinct.. Dr. Phil calls it win/win–everybody gets a trophy and gets re-elected.

Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...

December 3rd, 2012
1:25 pm

massachusetts refugee

December 3rd, 2012
1:25 pm

there is no one on either end of pennsylvania avenue with the politcal b@lls to make the hard choices that need to made. they will find a way to kick this one down the road for the next congress to worry aboot.

Erwin's cat

December 3rd, 2012
1:28 pm

And in other bad news (for Republican who want our Country to fall) auto sales were up for the month of November.

http://www.ajc.com/ap/ap/automotive/chrysler-sales-up-14-percent-in-november/nTLfp/

I’m sure the Italians are thrilled

Adam

December 3rd, 2012
1:29 pm

Wilbur: After the election they only want to raise taxes on a few rich people in a move they know won’t fix the problem.

Not Intended to Be a Factual Statement

Adam

December 3rd, 2012
1:31 pm

Nunna: Obama proposed a balanced approach in which some revenue was raised and some spending cuts were made. In fact, one such deal actually went through. And now he proposes some more cuts by savings in earned benefit programs, and some revenue from taxing the top at Clinton era rates. Among other things.

indigo

December 3rd, 2012
1:31 pm

So a$$hat is banned.

Well, since so many of the challenged here like sports, how about calling them “athletic supporters”.

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
1:31 pm

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
1:23 pm

At least I have a position Fred. Too bad you can’t say the same.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

And there ya go with ANOTHER lie. The lies just roll off your keyboard everytime you type don’t you little rascal.

i’m have been on record for over a YEAR for my wonderful proposal. CUT SPENDING AND RAISE TAXES. But not just arbitrarily because politicians are as foreign to telling the truth and dealing square as you are, so here is how it would work:

For every 100 BILLION dollars of spending that gets cut, 1/10th of a percent of a tax increase would be allowed PER YEAR. None of this stupid “well we cut 5 trillion dollars over the next ten years” crap. We need to SLASH spending NOW. As you can see, if you can do real math not Republican voodoo math, to raise the tax rate 1 percent there would have to be 1 TRILLION dollars in cuts. You want a 4 percent raise in taxes, cut 4 TRILLION dollars.

Just a piece of advise sport, well two pieces: one, tell the truth, you’ll feel better, two: when you’ve dug yourself in a hole over your head, put the shovel down.

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
1:32 pm

Oh, I see Wilbur’s lie now, he said “a few rich people.” He should have said “all rich people and the upper middle class.”

Adam

December 3rd, 2012
1:32 pm

JHM: Anyone with a modicum of honesty and half a working memory will recognize Wilbur’s lie right off.

Indeed.

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
1:33 pm

Jack ®

December 3rd, 2012
1:23 pm

I knew it was gonna be Boehner’s fault when I read the really really catchy title to this piece. So, let us avoid the ‘cliff’ by requiring all those that make over $250K annually to sign a pledge: the pledge being a promise to never ever enjoy the money you earn and always always feel really bad enough to sign over the excess over $250K to the U.S. Treasury. It can be shown on your Sch A as a legal contribution deduction. And then you’ll feel so much better knowing that Obama really loves you.
++++++++++++++++++++++

And stupidity like this shows the damage talk radio and Fox news can do to a healthy mind……. well assuming he ever HAD a healthy mind to begin with……….

Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...

December 3rd, 2012
1:34 pm

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
1:12 pm

I was listening to Politico today and heard a great quote from some prolific journalist covering DC for decades..don’t recall name..

“when i went in to congress (for interviews) if felt like a bake ham sitting on cold marble waiting for some elected official to come out and lie to me…”

What if any-denomination politician went to DC and started going public with instances where they were asked to lie…also, would go public when unusual “transactions” took place…say real estate deals..or clear bending due to cash or other goods of decisions made..?

He/she could have their own reality show…probably should be an independent and not like that socialist rube Bernie Sanders…

Adam

December 3rd, 2012
1:34 pm

Nunna: Oh, I see Wilbur’s lie now, he said “a few rich people.” He should have said “all rich people and the upper middle class.”

No, the problem here is that he says that the Democrats abandoned spending cuts (the balanced approach) and propose now only tax increases. That is a lie.

Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...

December 3rd, 2012
1:35 pm

Funny but I guess we learned for sure that socialism in the case of deciding who goes to the Bowl CHAMPIONSHIP series clearly doesn’t work…even semi socialism…even 100% keynesian policy..on and on..

Jm

December 3rd, 2012
1:38 pm

Nader is an idiot

Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...

December 3rd, 2012
1:38 pm

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
1:12 pm

How about a stipulation that NO new spending (entitlements, stimulus, pay raises for congress and the like) increases are to occur until we get to certain agreed to ratios of balance sheet and income statement metrics…?

Tax on stock,and dervative transactions seem to be big money as well…

Joe Hussein Mama

December 3rd, 2012
1:39 pm

N. Yobinnes — “Joe – if the administration gets it way”

Who are you to claim you know what the administration wants?

“there is nothing factually incorrect about that statement.”

Everything about that statement is factually incorrect.

“If they go the fiscal cliff way, then all of us will pay more taxes.”

You do recognize that the GOP has a role to play in the matter as well, don’t you?

No, I suspect you don’t.

Jm

December 3rd, 2012
1:40 pm

America is boring

Lets jump over

I have my parachute

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
1:41 pm

Joe – Um, sorry, I thought that the administration didn’t want to raise taxes on everyone, just those over $250k in income. You’re saying that they didn’t propose that, huh?

Keep Up the Good Fight!

December 3rd, 2012
1:42 pm

If they go the fiscal cliff way, then all of us will pay more taxes.

Not necessarily, tax rates will increase but a retroactive reduction can take place. How do you think the GOP wil look voting against a tax cut for those making under $250K. You think that might be remembered in 2014?

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
1:43 pm

Stevie Ray the clown……….. (lol been waiting to use that): I can’t make up my mind on your Ralph Nader thing. My first instinct is to distrust it because it’s from Ralph Nader who is a communist isn’t he? (Didn’t he run for President once under the Communist Party? I may be wrong but that seems to stick in my mind). Also I don’t know enough about it to make an informed judgement BUT……..

At 1/2 or 1 cent like either you or the article said (I read it the first time you posted it), it sounds like a pretty damn good idea. Like oyu, I’m curious to see if Jay responds. I tend to think he hasn’t seen it, or is researching it, rather than he’s ignoring you.

GT

December 3rd, 2012
1:44 pm

It is the American people jumping off those cliffs not the representatives. Instead of blaming the politician the public face of this should be the voting public. Here is what you are doing to yourselves for voting for the guy or gal. Oh the politician lies to them, but looks at these lies; it is like a spouse believing their significant other is sitting up all night for a friend that is what they want to believe. We are suckers or at least some of us are the majority get it right, the minority hear what they think they hear.

Joe Hussein Mama

December 3rd, 2012
1:45 pm

N. Yobinnes — “At least I have a position Fred.”

That position appears to involve lots of dishonesty, fabrication, distortion and outright lying, as well as a considerable amount of presumptuously speaking for others who you presumably don’t even know, much less have permission to speak for.

It’s pretty clear that you’re upset with the President in particular and with Democrats in general, but that upset won’t make your fabulism any more likely to come true than banging your ruby slippers together three times will.

Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...

December 3rd, 2012
1:46 pm

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
1:43 pm

You have deeply wounded me with your “clown” comment. Please let it be known that my nickname per the folks who know me the best is dic*head. At home my nickname per teenage girls is annoying.

I’d appreciate it if you would give me the respect of using the appropriate label…I’m more advanced than clowns and jokers…

Joe Hussein Mama

December 3rd, 2012
1:46 pm

N. Yobinnes — “Joe – Um, sorry, I thought that the administration didn’t want to raise taxes on everyone, just those over $250k in income. You’re saying that they didn’t propose that, huh?”

I’m saying that Wilbur lied and that your defense of him was dishonest at best.

Halftrack

December 3rd, 2012
1:48 pm

Obummer thinks that going off the cliff is with a bungie cord attached and the more you spend and tax you will be jerked right back up. It is the taxpayer that gets jerked around and we have to pay the fiddler to the “tune” of 16 + trillion dollars.

Adam

December 3rd, 2012
1:48 pm

It seems some people prefer responding to those they think they can “win” arguments with because that person has offended them, instead of addressing those of us who present the facts clearly and succinctly.

Thulsa Doom

December 3rd, 2012
1:49 pm

Respect Saban. Do it !!!

bookman parrot

December 3rd, 2012
1:49 pm

jay,
your “warning” for the speaker (in cliff diver #3) would also hold true for the messiah BHO and lib cohorts

Oscar

December 3rd, 2012
1:50 pm

A four per cent increase means someone making 300,000 would pay an additional $2000 in taxes.

When you consider the average worker makes only $50,000 and can barely pay room and board, sounds kind of petty for someone making 300K to complain about paying another $2,000.

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
1:50 pm

Jm

December 3rd, 2012
1:40 pm

America is boring

Lets jump over

I have my parachute
++++++++++++++++++

Your mom’s basement is NOT a parachute. You live there already. :mrgreen: (just kidding)

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
1:51 pm

Fred

” My first instinct is to distrust it because it’s from Ralph Nader who is a communist isn’t he? (Didn’t he run for President once under the Communist Party? I may be wrong but that seems to stick in my mind). Also I don’t know enough about it to make an informed judgement BUT……..

At 1/2 or 1 cent like either you or the article said (I read it the first time you posted it), it sounds like a pretty damn good idea. Like oyu, I’m curious to see if Jay responds.”

No, he isn’t a communist or a socialist or a rightwinger or any of the other categories people like to slot others into so they can label them and dismiss them (not directed at you, just an observation on how some operate). Nader’s an independent. Has had several runs for President. Democrats had been even more active in shutting him out of the electoral process than Republicans.

That idea was floated years ago, around the time of the financial meltdown, I think. Nader’s point was to let those engaged in the industry pay for cleanup when things went wrong, not to dump it all on the taxpayers. I believe he envisioned a fund that would be tapped when such things happen again. Of course, Democrats AND Republicans opposed the idea.

Wall Street doesn’t give all that much money to people like Nader who believe in accountability and paying for your own sins.

Thulsa Doom

December 3rd, 2012
1:53 pm

Going over the cliff? Sounds like what the Bama offensive line did to the Georgia defense. They steamrolled them and pushed em right over a cliff.

Corbin Sharpe. Baby Boomer leech...and earned it!

December 3rd, 2012
1:54 pm

Halftrack is going off half cocked…

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
1:54 pm

Halftrack

December 3rd, 2012
1:48 pm

Obummer thinks that going off the cliff is with a bungie cord attached and the more you spend and tax you will be jerked right back up. It is the taxpayer that gets jerked around and we have to pay the fiddler to the “tune” of 16 + trillion dollars.
++++++++++++++++++++

I love it when the kids get alt’s use “cutsie” little talk radio insult names for the most powerful man on the face of the earth, and repeat the same lies. It’s so “clever”.

YouLibs

December 3rd, 2012
1:54 pm

Thelma

Saban knows he was five seconds and five yards away from a second-tier bowl game. They should put a statue of Chris Conley right next to the Saban statue on campus.

Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...

December 3rd, 2012
1:54 pm

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
1:41 pm

Why can’t those making over 50K pay another 100 bucks or so in…progessive to those making up to 250K..max would be say 1K annually? Seems everyone of any means needs to be vested in fixing this mess…this in addition to material spending cuts, gradual increase of tax rate on those over 250K…stay away from cap gains and dividends..

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
1:55 pm

Thulsa – that referee double standard on the late quarterback hits didn’t help.

Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...

December 3rd, 2012
1:57 pm

Thulsa Doom

December 3rd, 2012
1:53 pm

True but our tatooing of UA for 28 points and the game ending on the 5 yard line doesn’t suggest (oddly enough) that the ground game of bama (it seems they ran for over 1000 yds) was enough to put the game away until time expired at the 5…

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
1:58 pm

Oscar, a couple with $300,000 in taxable income would pay an additional $15k, not $2k.

Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...

December 3rd, 2012
2:01 pm

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
1:51 pm

IMO, Nader hasn’t said anything politically relevent since he arrived on the scene in the 70’s I think. This idea has been tossed around much to the chagrin of DEMS and GOP who get cash from Wall St. But taking the Las Vegas style betting out can make differences for the individual long term investor as well as tax collections.

The problem is that Goldmann runs the government and would likely get another home-boy on the cabinet or the like and make sure that doesn’t happen…

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
2:01 pm

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
1:55 pm

Thulsa – that referee double standard on the late quarterback hits didn’t help.
+++++++++++++++++

Meh. It didn’t hurt so much either maybe. What killed us was the typical Mark Richt team that has a lack of discipline and self discipline. We were out coached period. Mark Richt will NEVER win a National Championship and it’s looking a lot like he’ll never win another SEC championship unless the other teams bus blows up on the way to the game killing the entire team.

Joe Hussein Mama

December 3rd, 2012
2:02 pm

N. Yobinnes — “Oscar, a couple with $300,000 in taxable income would pay an additional $15k, not $2k.”

No. Oscar is correct.

You’d calculate the increased taxation on the portion of income *over* $250K, not on the whole amount.

N-GA (on the winning side 2 federal elections in a row!)

December 3rd, 2012
2:02 pm

Since the House of Representatives seems to have the time to re-visit the Affordable Healthcare Act 30+ times, let me suggest this:

Start at annual income of $100,000 and vote on a bill to extend the Bush tax cuts. Keep doing that in $10,000 increments. Stop when the first vote fails to pass. I think the GOP would call those “up-or-down” votes, right?

Oscar

December 3rd, 2012
2:04 pm

Nunna Yobinnes = four per cent of $50,000 is $2,000. What am I missing here.

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
2:06 pm

Nunna

“Oscar, a couple with $300,000 in taxable income would pay an additional $15k, not $2k.”

Just how on earth did you calculate that?

That couple would be in the second-top tier. The amount over $250k adjusted would be taxed an additional 3 percent marginal. That’s after deductions, not gross income. $300k minus $250K = $50K times .03 yields $1,500, not $15,000.

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
2:07 pm

My wife stiffed me on going to lunch and I’m starving. Should I distract her and then delete the paper she’s writing lol?

JohnnyReb

December 3rd, 2012
2:07 pm

I notice a few Moonbats have convenient memory. Let’s review.

W kept the econonomy out of the toilet after 9/11.

I believe every Senator voted to go war but one, the current jackass in the oval office.

That same oval office occupier failed to reach an agreement with Iraq for us to have a base of opearation which, for those in la la land, means the lives, limbs, and money was pretty much for naught.

The current oval office occupier ramped up the war in Afghanistan. I don’t ever read about the money he is spending there. W on the otherhand had enough sense to know a big war there would be a failure.

Oh I know. GM survived and OBL died. Keep believing that BS. The jury is stil out on GM. If they survive it will be because Barry forgives their current debt, and/or the IRS forgives their back taxes. And, they hire someone who can engineer a car to world class standards.

As to OBL, give little Barry credit for pulling the trigger. At least he has had one foreign policy achievement that worked.

Thulsa Doom

December 3rd, 2012
2:08 pm

Dawg fans got more excuses than Jimmy carter has peanuts. Every break in the game went the Dawgs way and they still got beat. They get a cheap td on a kick block following a bs tipping call, bama mismanaged the clock to end the first half, we threw an int into the end zone, we let the clock expire on a fake kick that would have worked while uga has a lucky conversion on their fake kick. The only thing that even made that game close was bamas various miscues. Statistically and on the field it was a one sided a$$kicking with Georgia supplying the a$$.

N-GA (on the winning side 2 federal elections in a row!)

December 3rd, 2012
2:08 pm

Nunna is using that old Republican arithmetic.

Tundra Dude

December 3rd, 2012
2:09 pm

A technical guide to cliff-jumping, fiscal and otherwise

Simple solution: Just repeal that Budget Control Act of 2011

(If they’d stop manufacturing these Cliffs and Ceilings there wouldn’t be a crisis)

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
2:10 pm

1999 tax (next to last year of Clinton admin) ($300,000 – 283,150) x 39.6% + 85,288.50) = $91,691.

2011 tax (next to last year of “Bush tax cuts”) ($212,300 x 33%)-22,545.30 = $76,455. Tax increase = $15,506. Not $2,000.

JohnnyReb

December 3rd, 2012
2:10 pm

To the topic at hand – one can state Republicans are not serious about solving the mess, but the facts are -

Republicans are not proposing ridiculous things like paying off peoples mortgage, forgiving student loans, having another Stimulus spending, and letting Obama raise the debt limit anytime he wishes without getting Congressional approval.

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
2:11 pm

Afternoon, JHM

Amazing, isn’t it? People spend all this time on this blog, telling everyone what ‘is’ regarding tax proposals (especially when it comes to what ‘the other side’ really means) and after all this time they still don’t even understand the concept of marginal rates…….

It’s like someone sitting thru a whole semester of a geology class and just before the final saying to the professor “what was the name of the period where humans lived with the t-rexes, not just the allosauruses?”

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
2:11 pm

Paul and Joe – Ignoring the changes in tax brackets aren’t you? See my illustration above.

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
2:12 pm

JohnnyReb

December 3rd, 2012
2:10 pm

To the topic at hand – one can state Republicans are not serious about solving the mess, but the facts are -

Republicans are not proposing ridiculous things like paying off peoples mortgage, forgiving student loans, having another Stimulus spending, and letting Obama raise the debt limit anytime he wishes without getting Congressional approval.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Neither is the President. Only Rush and Fox says that……. well and you……

Butch

December 3rd, 2012
2:12 pm

I skimmed through quick so maybe I missed it, but has anyone defined the spending cuts that have been proposed by the administration? Lots of talk about revenue, but I saw Geithner on the weekend shows and he talked about permanently removing the debt limit, $600B in stimulus, etc…..no specifics about spending…..lots of rhetoric about taxes. I think we can all agree, taxes are going up…..that’s fine…..but no talk of spending cuts?

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
2:12 pm

Paul, I understand marginal rates. I also understand tax brackets, which apparently you do not.

Peadawg

December 3rd, 2012
2:12 pm

“Every break in the game went the Dawgs way”

These 2 come to mind:

1. The vicious head-to-head hit on Murray
2. The “pass interference” call on UGA on 3rd down when the ball was 5 yards over his head.

Those certainly didn’t go our way.

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
2:13 pm

Fred

“Should I distract her and then delete the paper she’s writing lol?”

What’s the one thing a husband never wants to hear when he’s arguing with his wife? (or in your case, done something like that)

“Just remember…. you have to fall asleep sometime….”

Tundra Dude

December 3rd, 2012
2:14 pm

it’s like someone sitting thru a whole semester of a geology class and just before the final saying to the professor “what was the name of the period where humans lived with the t-rexes, not just the allosauruses?”

LOL!!! Stop it, man, yer killin’ me!!!
(bestest laff in a long time)

Keep Up the Good Fight!

December 3rd, 2012
2:15 pm

“Just remember…. you have to fall asleep sometime….”

And I thought it was “Just remember Lorena Bobbit.” :D

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
2:15 pm

JohnnyReb

“W kept the econonomy out of the toilet after 9/11.”

In what space-time continuum did the crash of 2008 occur before Sep 11, 2001?

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
2:15 pm

Butch

December 3rd, 2012
2:12 pm

I skimmed through quick so maybe I missed it, but has anyone defined the spending cuts that have been proposed by the administration? Lots of talk about revenue, but I saw Geithner on the weekend shows and he talked about permanently removing the debt limit, $600B in stimulus, etc…..no specifics about spending…..lots of rhetoric about taxes. I think we can all agree, taxes are going up…..that’s fine…..but no talk of spending cuts?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And on FOX you won’t see anything about cuts. but then the truth is, as long as the Republicans flatly state they won’t do any tax raising, there doesn’t need to BE anything on spending cuts. It won’t matter as long as they fail to negotiate. Once they come to the table to REALISTICALLY talk, then we’ll hear about the cuts.

What’s so hard to understand about that? You don’t give a counter offer until you have received an offer. In an action, you don’t raise your own bid………

AmericaShrugged

December 3rd, 2012
2:16 pm

We deserve the cliff. We allow our elected representatives to represent little more than themselves. Does it seem reasonable, fair or even sane, that we should pay for them to have pension and healthcare plans separate from Obamacare, Medicare and SS?

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
2:16 pm

too bad Paul ignores facts in favor of funny stories. Gee, if I had told a lie, I’d never hear the end of it.

Thulsa Doom

December 3rd, 2012
2:17 pm

Nunna yobusiness,

Doesnt sound like you understand football very well. When AJ got hit it was a late hit and head to head. When Murray threw an int he then became a defender and thus fair game to be blocked. Big difference which the dawg fans seem unable to discern. And if you’re going to start it off with the blows to the head by your defensive players then guess whats going to happen? That play had no bearing on the game anyway. Instead of making a fg from the 5 which was right down the middle we would have just made it from the 20. Bunch a whining about nothing.

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
2:17 pm

LOl Sorry butch, that should have been an AUCTION not an action…….

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
2:18 pm

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
2:16 pm

too bad Paul ignores facts in favor of funny stories. Gee, if I had told a lie, I’d never hear the end of it.
++++++++++++++++

When haven’t you lied? I’ve pointed out two or three this thread alone……….

oops

December 3rd, 2012
2:18 pm

oh look. it can be done.

FL’s debt clock is….. going DOWN? Good job Republican Rick Scott.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/state-debt-clocks/state-of-florida-debt-clock.html

Tundra Dude

December 3rd, 2012
2:19 pm

My wife stiffed me on going to lunch and I’m starving

I stiffed my gf, she’s taking me out to lunch.

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
2:19 pm

I didn’t lie. Show me the error in my calculations. You can’t.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

December 3rd, 2012
2:20 pm

Jerome

RA is quickly running out of 1st class managers to fire. If he starts in on the 2nd tier, then we will quickly be out of the EPL.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Fred

A red card in U12?

Must be a fan of Elizabeth Lambert.

Check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvEobeNfGcc

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
2:21 pm

Well Paul, when are you going to admit you were wrong?

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
2:21 pm

Nunna

Let me see if I understand this.

You’re arguing that the relevant time period to calculate differentials is not what the Pres campaigned on – top-tier increases by 3% and 4.6% – but on rates going back over a decade?

“999 tax (next to last year of Clinton admin) ($300,000 – 283,150) x 39.6% + 85,288.50) = $91,691.

2011 tax (next to last year of “Bush tax cuts”) ($212,300 x 33%)-22,545.30 = $76,455. Tax increase = $15,506. Not $2,000.”

Nunna, do you see the difference in your formulas from 1999 to 2011? Not the numbers, but the structure? Hint: for 2011, no one in the next to highest bracket pays 33% on their entire adjusted gross income.

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
2:22 pm

Woo Hoo. I just got a check for $104.54 for my oil well. I’m RICH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
2:22 pm

Thulsa, you know for a fact that the hit on Murray occurred after the interception?

Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...

December 3rd, 2012
2:23 pm

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
1:58 pm

Great…so $1250 a month to start on taxable income at 300K..not including if any deductions are removed…that number can quickly get up to 1750 or more a month…we get screwed..what about those who have homes materially underwater, taking care of parents, kids in college and the like who are thin on discretionary cash?

I guess these “rich taxpayers” all manage their money perfectly, live at least a couple thousand a month below their means and the like.

This is where that anger comes in…this “they can afford it” and “fair share” garbage are simply political gamesmanship toward class warfare..

If these are instituted over time and NO NEW SPENDING regardless is undertaken, some may be won over…if not, this direct transfer of money from those of us who pay material taxes to support unsustainable can-kicking will take other measures to protect our money..

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
2:23 pm

Okay, Tundra 2:11, that was great, too!

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
2:24 pm

I compared taxes for the same situation for 1999 versus 2011. My understanding is that taxes were to return to the Clinton era taxes. That being the case, taxes for a couple with $300,000 in taxable income will pay $15,506 more in tax.

Butch

December 3rd, 2012
2:24 pm

Fred

“And on FOX you won’t see anything about cuts. but then the truth is, as long as the Republicans flatly state they won’t do any tax raising, there doesn’t need to BE anything on spending cuts. It won’t matter as long as they fail to negotiate. Once they come to the table to REALISTICALLY talk, then we’ll hear about the cuts.

What’s so hard to understand about that? You don’t give a counter offer until you have received an offer. In an action, you don’t raise your own bid………”

I get it…..but on the other hand, why negotiate on revenues until you get some give on spending?…..cuts both ways.

Until both sides stop campaigning, this BS will continue. I don’t have the answer but I am sure term limits are a good place to start.

Not sure what FOX has to do with this…..

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
2:25 pm

Kam: I can’t BELIEVE you posted that BS. Elizabeth was victimized by the whole BYU team and then smeared by ESPN. Did you actually WATCH that video? She had her hair pulled viciously, had another tramp punch her in the groin, another one elbowed her in the stomach.

I thought that the play and conduct of the BYU players was deplorable and I wrote BYU and told them so. How did YOU get duped?

Boris Badnoff

December 3rd, 2012
2:26 pm

Upon reading Jay Bookman’s excellent nonpartisan analysis, I broke down and openly wept because I realize that I am the problem. I’m just not paying enough in taxes. Immediately I opened my wallet and put the contents in an envelope and sent it to Washington. Without Jay’s guidance I might have squandered it on foolish frivolities such as food and shelter. Of course we all need to pay more taxes. Our Beloved Messiah is getting ready for his annual vacation to the island nation of Hawaii which costs $ 4 million in taxes.

http://www.hawaiireporter.com/with-more-vacation-days-and-separate-travel-price-of-obama%E2%80%99s-annual-hawaiian-holiday-rises/123

Those trouble making rascally Republicans are making snide remarks such as what is he taking a vacation from? All he ever does is play golf. And he could take a vacation in Chattanooga and see 57 states from Rock City and stay at the palatial Motel 666 for only slight less than what Jay Bookman spends each month on hair grooming products. Have these people no shame? Golf is exhausting. You have to select which club and decide whether to tip the caddy or simply point out that serving a living god is payment enough. Certainly, $ 4 million is a pittance and we must make sure Our Beloved Messiah is thoroughly rested in case he ever has to do something.

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
2:27 pm

The oversimplistic results in changes in marginal rates have less bearing on the tax calculation than the changes in tax brackets.

Oscar

December 3rd, 2012
2:28 pm

Nunna- I get the point about tax brackets, but I don’t believe your figures are correct.

Taxes on the 1999 amount up to 283,150 would not be anywhere as high as you say they are in your calculation.

Dr. Freud

December 3rd, 2012
2:28 pm

I have been working on a new hypothesis — and the Congress of the United States seems to merit close observation.

My hypothesis? Simply put, that mental illness is contagious. And, if one associates with those who are mentally ill, the chances are the crazy behavior will be replicated.

Close scrutiny of the Congress of the United States since 2010, shows we’re pretty close to proving the hypothesis is correct.

Joe Hussein Mama

December 3rd, 2012
2:28 pm

J. Reb — “I notice a few Moonbats have convenient memory. Let’s review.”

I notice your head’s stuck in your third point of contact again. Let’s pull it out and clean out your ears.

“W kept the econonomy out of the toilet after 9/11.”

Via blowing a modest budget surplus and massive deficit spending, which, as our VP told us at the time, ‘didn’t matter.’

“I believe every Senator voted to go war but one, the current jackass in the oval office.”

And I reserve special scorn for every one of them — Republican or Democrat — who voted to cede their authority to the President.

“That same oval office occupier failed to reach an agreement with Iraq for us to have a base of opearation which, for those in la la land, means the lives, limbs, and money was pretty much for naught.”

Somehow, it escapes you that the *invasion* was for naught, too. Besides, since Iraq hadn’t attacked us, didn’t have WMD and was *complying* with UN weapons inspectors, we had no cause for action there.

“The current oval office occupier ramped up the war in Afghanistan. I don’t ever read about the money he is spending there. W on the otherhand had enough sense to know a big war there would be a failure.”

President Bush stupidly wasted time, money, materiel and LIVES in a pointless Iraq adventure when the mastermind behind 9/11 was safely in hiding in Afghanistan. If terror attacks were the reason for launching the war, President Bush clearly took his eyes off the target. Plus, during all this fooferaw, the North Koreans managed to GET THE BOMB — and yet we heard no Republican hue-and-cry about those WMDs. Conclusion — Republican objections to Iraqi WMDs were a convenient and transparent excuse for invasion.

“Oh I know. GM survived and OBL died. Keep believing that BS. The jury is stil out on GM. If they survive it will be because Barry forgives their current debt, and/or the IRS forgives their back taxes. And, they hire someone who can engineer a car to world class standards.”

Your bleating complaint has been noted and dismissed.

“As to OBL, give little Barry credit for pulling the trigger. At least he has had one foreign policy achievement that worked.”

It took Obama to do what Bush couldn’t or wouldn’t do.

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
2:29 pm

Nunna

Admit I’m wrong about what?

Oscar had written “A four per cent increase means someone making 300,000 would pay an additional $2000 in taxes.” and “Nunna Yobinnes = four per cent of $50,000 is $2,000. What am I missing here.”

You wrote “You very clearly stated “Oscar, a couple with $300,000 in taxable income would pay an additional $15k, not $2k.”

I pointed out the increased taxes under the marginal increase was $1.5K.

Your response about the Clinton rates was…. well…. not accurate. Or relevant.

TaxPayer

December 3rd, 2012
2:29 pm

Using Republican faith-based math rules, you’re allowed to arbitrarily change any numbers in order to achieve the end result you want. Wow. If only that strategy had worked for Karl Rove, Mitt would be president.

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
2:29 pm

Go to the IRS website, and look at the instructions for Form 1040. They are where I got the tax calculation formulas.

Joe Hussein Mama

December 3rd, 2012
2:30 pm

N. Yobinnes — “Paul and Joe – Ignoring the changes in tax brackets aren’t you? See my illustration above.”

Cart before the horse, aren’t you?

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
2:30 pm

Nunna

Third paragraph, delete “You wrote” from that.

Joe Hussein Mama

December 3rd, 2012
2:31 pm

N. Yobinnes — “I didn’t lie.”

You certainly did when you defended Wilbur.

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
2:31 pm

Sure Paul. You keep on ignoring the facts. There is more to the changes than marginal rate increases. To ignore that is being dishonest.

Oscar

December 3rd, 2012
2:31 pm

Nunna – I will check it out.

TaxPayer

December 3rd, 2012
2:32 pm

Where’s Ben hanging out these days. Ben. Ben! BEN! Where are you Ben.

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
2:33 pm

Nunna

“I compared taxes for the same situation for 1999 versus 2011. My understanding is that taxes were to return to the Clinton era taxes. That being the case, taxes for a couple with $300,000 in taxable income will pay $15,506 more in tax.”

The marginal rates for the bracket you’re speaking of are proposed to increase 3.6%

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/insights/article/tax-outlook-09172012

Fred ™

December 3rd, 2012
2:33 pm

I see Nunnya has “conveniently” ignored my tax plan that he said I didn’t have lol, much less admit he was dead ass wrong.

Tom Middleton

December 3rd, 2012
2:33 pm

How about if we get “Filibuster Mitch McConnell” and “Weeping John Boehner” to jump off a high dive into six inches of water, like at a circus? Oh, nevermind. With our luck they’d land in elephant sh*t and come out like they already are! :)

Thulsa Doom

December 3rd, 2012
2:33 pm

Nunna yobusiness,

Yes. The hit on Murray occurred after the int and i believe the commentators pointed that out. And you can tell from the movement of the players on both sides it was post int. Quinton dial hit him shoulder length and it dragged his shoulder up to where it hit murrays head so its possible he could have been called for unsportsmanlike. Except that the ref standing right there viewing it didn’t think so. The commentators comments weren’t that it was a late hit but that it was head to head. A lot of stuff wasn’t called in that game. For the most part they just let them play.

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
2:33 pm

Joe – “Cart before the horse, aren’t you?” How do you figure that? I stated that taxes for a couple with $300,000 would increase by $15k, not $2k as Paul had declared. Clearly the illustration proves he was either misinformed or being dishonest.

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
2:35 pm

Fred – your tax plan? I don’t think that your plan or my plan really matter, it’s up to congress.

Ken

December 3rd, 2012
2:36 pm

Just another Obama train wreck.

Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...

December 3rd, 2012
2:36 pm

Opps..I guess I need to check the math..let’s see..I have to do 180 here…I’m reading that in that bracket the additonal tax is 200-300 per month…before any deductions worth about 24-3600 per year..another and possibly more significant cost is if AMT is reduced and /or mortgage deduction is capped…will check..

Forgive my premature postulation prior..

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

December 3rd, 2012
2:37 pm

Fred

It’s usually the retaliation that get punished.

I remember the first season of the WUSA when Julie Foudy was picking on Homare Sawa (who is all of 5′ 5″ and maybe 100 lbs soaking wet) all game long. About the 85th minute, I turned to my friend and said “Cindy Parlow has had just about enough of this” and sure enough about 2 minutes later, Cindy threw an elbow and knocked Foudy out.

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
2:39 pm

Nunna

” There is more to the changes than marginal rate increases”

Irrelevant.

The point under discussion is how much would a couple with an income (agi assumed) earning $300,000 a year see their taxes rise if Pres Obama’s proposal to increase the marginal rate from 33% to 36% for the amount over $250,000?

And it ain’t $15,000.

It’s $1500.

You could have taken the almost graceful way out and said “my finger slipped on the keyboard.” But the fact you continue to maintain it’s really $15,000, or an increase equal to 20 percent of their adjusted gross income, leads me to conclude you really do not have a grasp of the concepts once you deviate from the talking points.

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
2:41 pm

Nunna

My earlier post, correct to read “The marginal rates for the bracket you’re speaking of are proposed to increase from 33% to 36%

Brosephus™

December 3rd, 2012
2:41 pm

W kept the econonomy out of the toilet after 9/11.

I believe every Senator voted to go war but one, the current jackass in the oval office.

Was that “current jackass in office” even in Congress took that vote or are you in need of a Snickers or something to aid that sugar imbalance that’s got your brain fried?

Keep Up the Good Fight!

December 3rd, 2012
2:41 pm

Looks like the Dems will start tomorrow to force a vote in the house on the Senate passed plan to extend the Bush tax cuts to those making under $250k. :D Only needs 218 votes…… only 26 republicans needed. :D Wonder if Boehner can hold the line?

Joe Hussein Mama

December 3rd, 2012
2:43 pm

N. Yobinnes — “How do you figure that? I stated that taxes for a couple with $300,000 would increase by $15k, not $2k as Paul had declared. Clearly the illustration proves he was either misinformed or being dishonest.”

Aren’t you compounding Bush-era tax reform rates *and* the overall tax cuts? Rescinding the Bush-Obama tax cuts won’t automatically reinstitute the Clinton-era tax rates IIRC.

YouLibs

December 3rd, 2012
2:46 pm

If you lean right, you probably shouldn’t watch this:

Robert Reich: The Fiscal Cliff in Two Minutes and Thirty Seconds

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/fiscal-cliff-video_b_2232549.html

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
2:50 pm

Ok, assuming that the information in Paul’s link is correct and will not be revised by congress at the last minute, the “2012 tax” is $75,906 versus $85,068. Increase is “only” $9,162. Still a whole lot more than $2,000.

Oscar

December 3rd, 2012
2:52 pm

This discussion over what the tax increase will be is a good example of why our tax code is too complex and needs to be more simple.
Anyone should be able to figure their own taxes.

And all deductions/loopholes and credits should be eliminated.

Especially the mortgage interest deduction.

And why do we keep paying people to have more children.

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
2:55 pm

Oscar – good question. However, that applies to public assistance as well as personal exemptions.

Erwin's cat

December 3rd, 2012
2:55 pm

Especially the mortgage interest deduction.

Good luck with that one

Brosephus™

December 3rd, 2012
3:00 pm

And why do we keep paying people to have more children.

More children equals more future workers. It’s not as much as paying people to have more children as it is giving people a break on their taxes from having to raise more children. The current estimation for raising a child from birth to age 18 is somewhere around $250k.

A middle-income family may spend $226,920 to raise a child born in 2010 to the age of 18, the U.S. Department of Agriculture said today in a report.

The estimate is up 2.1 percent from 2009, according to the study, posted today on the department’s website. Expenses for child care, education, transportation and health services represented the biggest increases in child-rearing costs, the USDA said in a statement accompanying the report.

The typical two-parent family spent from $11,880 to $13,830 on each child, the study found. Households that make less spend less, USDA researchers said. A family earning less than $57,600 a year is likely to spend $163,440 in 2010 dollars to rear a child, while parents earning more than $99,730 may pay $377,040, according to the study.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-09/u-s-child-born-in-2010-may-cost-226-920-to-raise-usda-says.html

When compared to the maximum amount one can get with EITC, the two numbers are nowhere near close to what it costs to raise a child.

A middle-income family may spend $226,920 to raise a child born in 2010 to the age of 18, the U.S. Department of Agriculture said today in a report.

The estimate is up 2.1 percent from 2009, according to the study, posted today on the department’s website. Expenses for child care, education, transportation and health services represented the biggest increases in child-rearing costs, the USDA said in a statement accompanying the report.

The typical two-parent family spent from $11,880 to $13,830 on each child, the study found. Households that make less spend less, USDA researchers said. A family earning less than $57,600 a year is likely to spend $163,440 in 2010 dollars to rear a child, while parents earning more than $99,730 may pay $377,040, according to the study.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/key-elements/family/eitc.cfm

You basically either want poor people to stop reproducing or you want jobs to pay more to help with child raising expenses, which is it? or is there different options that I’m missing?

Brosephus™

December 3rd, 2012
3:02 pm

Oops…

Families with three or more children may receive a credit of up to $5,891 in 2012. The maximum credit is $5,236 for families with two children, $3,169 for families with one child, and just $475 for those without children.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/key-elements/family/eitc.cfm

alex

December 3rd, 2012
3:02 pm

Nunna, great I have been following your “fight”, and when ANYONE references Vanguard, the keeper of my cash–I listen. I suspect you are right you guys have been comparing the proposed Obama increase on ONLY money above 250,oo0 and paul was really correct in that you were assuming an increase, not on the marginal rate but on the entire structure of increases if the BUSH cuts drop out…? Paul is that correct? I believe this is what JHM is saying, but can we please move on.

Dr. freud: Karl and I agree, but we think this all has to do with Nancy Pelosi’s Cali -look, just another freudian slip……Pavlov

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
3:02 pm

Nunna

“Ok, assuming that the information in Paul’s link is correct and will not be revised by congress at the last minute, the “2012 tax” is $75,906 versus $85,068. Increase is “only” $9,162. Still a whole lot more than $2,000.”

Ummm.. no. Let’s walk thru this.

2012 marginal rate for someone with agi $300,000 is

0.33(300000-250000)

Subtract the $250,000 from $300.000 and get $50,000. Multiply that by .33 to get $16,500.

Proposed marginal rate for 2013 is .36(300,000-250,000).

300,000 minus $250,000 is $50,000 times .36 is $18,000.

Proposed 2013 is $18,000 less $16,500 from 2012 rate is difference (increase) of $1,500.

I know, I know, it undercuts the mantra of “but they’re taxed almost all they have and this will take all of it!’ but numbers are numbers.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

December 3rd, 2012
3:03 pm

Bromance SHEETZ!

Paul

December 3rd, 2012
3:05 pm

alex

Yes.

My underlying reason for engaging on this was because it so clearly illustrates the misinformation that many accept as to how ‘large’ the increase would be on the wealthiest. When actual numbers are presented, many making the case the increases would be exorbitant say “waitadadgumminnit… that can’t be right…”

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
3:06 pm

Without going back to find the exact wording of the post, your argument was essentially “what’s the big deal, their taxes will only go up $2,000. What’s that to someone making $300,000?” The tax will go up substantially more than $2,000. Marginal rates and income brackets BOTH have to be taken into consideration.

St Simons - aboriginal BOOTAKOOK 2014

December 3rd, 2012
3:09 pm

I have often wondered if we eliminated the mort interest deduction,
a) would we discourage people from buying houses?
b) would mortgage providers fill the void with more attractive rates?
c) would NPV of existing housing drop?

chuck

December 3rd, 2012
3:09 pm

How about derriere derby?

As for my comments about cliff jumping, why is President Barack HUSSEIN Obama NOT talking about spending cuts? Because he doesn’t think that he has to. He thinks that number one, he is above the law. He has essentially said that if congress doesn’t do what he wants, then he will bypass them. How many of you would have let that statement go by if W had said it? I thought so. Second, even though there is a SIZABLE Republican majority in HofR, he thinks he has some sort of irresistible mandate from the American people to do whatever he wants to. Third, he’s a democrat, so he thinks he is entitled to having his way regardless how it hurts the American economy.

I hope Obama DOES take us over the cliff, if it means an increase in taxes for ANYONE without HUGE spending cuts…like back to 2008 levels.

Has no one considered the fact that our spending is equal to the 2008 budget PLUS the 2008 stimulus PLUS the 2009 stimulus? How did those 2 stimulus packages become a permanent part of our spending? It is almost criminal that this is occurring under our very noses and nobody is even talking about it. INCLUDING the Republican leadership. What should occur, is that the HofR should DEMAND that President Barack HUSSEIN Obama send them a balanced budget or face a government shut down. If no budget arrives, they should pass a spending bill to cover Social Security, Medicare and the military and DARE the dems to vote it down. Come on guys. Time to grow a pair.

Constructive Feedback

December 3rd, 2012
3:11 pm

Mr Bookman:

Am I allowed to call you a “racist” for omitting a picture of the current President Of The United States but including a picture of a White Republican male who has no elective power to do anything about the Fiscal Cliff?

I thought that “The Nation Magazine” was bad for indicting Romney for his supposed $15 Million profit from the GM bailout – while they were gleeful that Obama spent $49.5 billion in Debt Money in a year with a debt of over $1,000 Billion.

I think that you have “The Nation” topped sir.

By the way – Why don’t you tell your loyal followers that of the $600 billion of “The Cliff” the part that Obama is fighting over – “The Taxes Upon The 1.0%” represents only $40 billion? (Or did you not see the graphic in the USA Today a few weeks ago?)

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

December 3rd, 2012
3:12 pm

…Barack HUSSEIN Obama…

There’s YOUR sign.

alex

December 3rd, 2012
3:13 pm

Nunna, IF the rates go back to the pre-bush cuts in their entirety (sp), then you are correct and EVERYONE will be PO’d, I’m not taking sides, just want to get accurrate information. I hope I have…

Lovely day….

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
3:15 pm

Yes, it is a shame that people continue to pass on misinformation to the public who are either unwilling or unable to make the tax calculations for themselves to see that the $2,000 increase is false and misleading.

alex

December 3rd, 2012
3:17 pm

@Youlib: Berkley professor, left wing, separated from Krugman at birth–expected opinion, Ya think he and Krugman ever talk???

@ Constructive: looks like Romney is having FUN, so be it, he tried, he failed let the man laugh and be done with it…

Oscar

December 3rd, 2012
3:17 pm

St Simons – None of the above. Compared to other countries who don’t have the deduction, our home ownership is about the same.

Most people that have a mortgage take the standard deduction and don’t get the benefit of the special deduction.

All the deduction does is maybe subsidize people to build million dollar plus houses. We should not be doing that.

williebkind

December 3rd, 2012
3:23 pm

Since most of the middle class voters are not red states, according to the brilliantly educated liberals, let the morons lead the country off the cliff. I do not want the conservatives giving up any values and call it compromising. I live tight all the time so it will not bother me if those morons on the east & west coast have to eat cup of noodles everyday. Let communist dictator do his thing!

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
3:25 pm

Willie – Little Pink Houses for You and Me.

Erwin's cat

December 3rd, 2012
3:27 pm

Most people that have a mortgage take the standard deduction and don’t get the benefit of the special deduction

i find that very very hard to believe….do you have any data on that?

chuck

December 3rd, 2012
3:29 pm

Losing the mortgage interest deduction without lowering the marginal rate would result in a $4000 increase in my tax bill. With the increase of not making the Bush tax cuts permanent, I would essentially be looking at bankruptcy. The increase for people making 120k per year according to an article in the paper last week, is 14,000, so we are looking at an 18k tax hike. That may seem like nothing to you, but it would make it impossible for me to keep my house.

jms

December 3rd, 2012
3:44 pm

The party is over. Tax increases (on all, not just the wealthy) and benefit cuts (on all, not just the wealthy) are what we as a nation have in store for us. Both will become worse the longer our elected officials refuse to deal with the realities of our staggering debt, our overpromises on benefits and our demographics. Here’s to the future!

Oscar

December 3rd, 2012
3:45 pm

Bro – We have a population explosion now. There are poor people in this country who are dying of starvation because we can’t produce enough to feed them. And it’s worse in other countries. And it will get even worse in years to come.

The earth, and the US can only support and feed so many people, and we have passed that number already.

We need to stop the population growth. Not encourage more babies.

Oscar

December 3rd, 2012
3:46 pm

Erwin – Had some. But did not save it.

Oscar

December 3rd, 2012
3:47 pm

Chuck – Sounds to me like you bought a house you can’t afford. Don’t blame me for that.

Brosephus™

December 3rd, 2012
4:01 pm

We have a population explosion now. There are poor people in this country who are dying of starvation because we can’t produce enough to feed them.

Not likely. What’s the current ratio of workers to retirees? That’s why Social Security is strained right now. Increasing the number of jobs/careers is what we need to straighten out all this fiscal sh*t. We pay farmers to NOT grow food at times, so how can we both do that AND starve people?

chuck

December 3rd, 2012
4:15 pm

Oscar, first I wouldn’t think of blaming you for anything…except possibly poor reading comprehension or naivete. Second, I can afford the house just fine if the government stays out of my pocket. Perhaps a reading comprehension course might help you understand the finer points of the post.

Marc

December 3rd, 2012
5:09 pm

I read some where and I agree give Obama what he and the socialists, AKA Democrats, want. All of it! Obama’s not going to stop here he has a “mandate”! Then let them tell our children why the growth in the country stopped because there was no money to invest because of these taxes. That this is the reason there are no jobs. That there’s only debit to be paid and no Medicare and Social Security. Tell them why the 1% left this country in droves.

[...] $300 – $400 per mont in additional Federal income taxes? … Read the original post: A technical guide to cliff-jumping, fiscal and otherwise | Jay Bookman ← Income Tax Accounting, a Comparative Look Between US – [...]

Nunna Yobinnes

December 3rd, 2012
6:33 pm

Paul, you can twist it any way you want to, but the increase is still $9,162 (assuming the article you linked is correct), not $2,000 and not $1,500. The tax is what the tax is. No amount of arguing about marginal rates will change that. That only works if the taxable income brackets remain the same.

LeAnne Lemmond

December 3rd, 2012
7:51 pm

This is a particular brilliant piece. Love it. Hope to see you over the holidays.

ld

December 3rd, 2012
10:27 pm

skipped bungee jumping off a cliff?

W/Congress so polarized, it seems the only way there will be enough “revenue enhancements” and enough “budget cuts” to address the deficit is take the leap. YAY fiscal cliff.

independent thinker

December 4th, 2012
7:19 am

Cons went off the cliff a long time ago when W enacted his tax cuts, started three unfunded wars (yes the war on terror is a war and Homeland Security ain’t cheap), passed unfunded Medicare Part D to get W reelected and securitized worthless mortgages so the fat cats in the banks and Wall Street could get big bonuses at the expense of the taxpayer noto mention doing everything possible to outsource and offshore jobs with no penalties. Problem is the Black janitor in the White House has not cleaned up the mess at the bottom of the cliff fast enough so more cliff jumping may be necessary by the cons in Congress themselves. Can we televise?
Of course before jumping the cons will blame their departure on the 47% as to be expected.