Time to end Norquist’s death grip on tax policy

1st?

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Whatever happened to “country first” ….BS last???

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I cannot think of an easier job than being a GOP Congressman…Good money, perks out that wazoo, and you do nothing…

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Grover, pledge this…

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Where is USMC?

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The Wicked Witch of Taxes needs to melt away. Its time GOP actually consider putting country first.

[Okay, its was technically dissolving since it was water not heat]

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Tax, Tax, Tax… When are we going to here what programs the Dems are going to agree to Cut, Cut Cut???

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Lord Help Us

November 20th, 2012
9:01 am

I cannot think of an easier job than being a Democratic Congressman…Good money, perks out that wazoo, and you do nothing

There!, I fixed your typo, DUH!

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“Its time GOP actually consider putting country first.”

Allowing our country to drift towards socialism is not putting country first.

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How Bain-like vulture capitalists are more responsible for the Twinkies problems than the unions:

http://www.salon.com/2012/11/20/vulture_capitalism_not_unions_killed_twinkies/

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BRO

“Hopefully, we’ll have a Congress that’s there to work for the people instead of working for the special interest groups.”

What incentives exist to make this happen? Special interests have an advantage not unlike a pro team playing a high school team…they got the money…voters can’t compete.

Butt Monkeys as it were…I’m more skeptical than ever and think gov will continue to fail us with continued deficits, no follow thru on cuts, and idiotic commitment of resources to defense..

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Norquist lost all crediblility when he refused to back Ron Paul.
As did the entire Republican party and everyone else who professes a faith in minimum taxes, the free-market, and constitutional government.
.
Taxes will go up for the working man……..and Bookman will sleep better at night.
.

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St Simons

November 20th, 2012
9:06 am

Fair statement but who are you to judge someone with an addiction? What does that have to do with anything..cheap and mindless. If you think addiction results from lack of moral fiber, you have no clue…same as calling one a diabetic or the like..

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Grover’s 15 min ends at midnight on Dec 31st

think about it

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Grover is special!

At least this one is…..

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“The country wants to move forward and everyone doing their fair share of carrying the load is all we ask.” So far all we have heard is how those families making over 250K will contribute, what about the others?

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“The Fed income tax is designed to be progressive to even out the disparity created by state, local, and payroll taxes.”

Not intended to be a factual statement.

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What a poopy head grover is! Can’t believe that republicans have been kissing his ring for decades, wake up and smell the coffee – it’s good for ya…

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” think you forgot that the country wants compromise, the country wants by a large margin to see the tax rates for the wealthy go back to where the were in the 1990’s. ”

There was a time in our history when the country wanted by a large margin to enslave blacks. Didn’t make it right,

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Ben is way full.

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Well, the topic is economics (again) and I don’t know enough about that to be making any comments. However, Ben is here, so I’m sure it won’t be long before he’ll give me something to react to.

Now, the Republicans and their loss? Bless their hearts. But I admit, I am enjoying the spinning, hand-wringing and fainting spells. As somebody else said here, it’s good for comic relief.

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“Time some of Romney’s supporter start paying their fair share instead of being parasites.”

Congratulations…funniest post of the day so far. Stupid, but funny.

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Not intended to be a factual statement.

Ben

If anybody knows anything about being “non-factional” that would be you. I already know you are reading challenged when it comes to facts, but I’ll provide the links for you anyway…

As you can see, the poorer you are, the more state and local taxes bite into your income. As you get richer, those taxes recede, and you’re mainly getting hit be federal taxes. So that’s another lesson: When you omit state and local taxes from your analysis, you’re omitting the taxes that hit lower-income taxpayers hardest.

—————————

But here is really the only tax graph you need: It’s total tax burden by income group. And as you’ll see, every income group is paying something, and the rich aren’t paying much more, as a percentage of their incomes, then the middle class.

That’s really what the American tax system looks like: Not 47 percent paying nothing, but everybody paying something, and most Americans paying between 25 percent and 30 percent of their income

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And may Mr. “poopy-pants” Norquist finally have to work for a living!

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Wow. Ben equates a four-point increase in the top-end tax rate to slavery?

I guess I shouldn’t be surprised, but…. damn.

Well, when you earn six figures, that’s what it feels like…

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The graph gives NO one leeway, the president’s numbers are down by 15%, repubs down by 14%.This data has nothing to do with leeway unless you try to use this data to speculate on how people may vote in 2014. Bottom line people may not believe that the opposing parties will work together in nov. 2012.Look at the bottom of the graph trend is based on polls taken nov 2008, nov. 2010, what the heck does that mean in 2012, more garbage.

While this pole basically says nothing, it is important that the parties work together and that both give in aon taxes and entitlements. let’s hope they do so..STAT.

As for Romney: good man, bad candidate, can’t see how “piling on” is moving the discussion of the country forward…..

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verbal

Typical con trick, pick out the one bad apple and then label the whole bunch as such. Intelligent folks can smell that rat instantly…

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More taxes, more taxes! Can we puh-leeze get some more taxes!!

The pols got a lot of spending to do.

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Ben Shockley

November 20th, 2012
9:18 am
“You remind us constantly of what we fought for, what we fought against and what our long term goals for the nation are.”

Turning over control of your life to government is “fighting” in your world?

LMAO

.
.
.
.
LMAO?

Impossible, you are to much of the A to be able to L it O.

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Going to be huge fun over the next four years watching Obama and his lib sock puppets trying to explain why they still have trillion dollar deficits after raising taxes on the rich.

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On the IRS tax return, we should change the box that asks if we want to contribute to the Presidential Election Campaign to something like “Would you like to contribute directly to reduce the U.S. deficit?” and see what sacrifice people are willing to make.

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Granny,

Fighting to be government-dependent and help yourself to other people’s money is pathetic, cowardly, and sad.

Seriously.

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ST SIMMONS

Sorry to send an ugly tone in your direction…yours truly is recovering addict…

We do agree that Rush, Hannity and the like are worthless homies…Of course there are no shortages of those on both sides..

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Stevie

obama got a predictable 97% of african american votes with a deplorable unemployment number..

Check your stats, Obama’s percentage of Black voters was lower this time than 2008… Leave the GOP talking points to the professionals who know how to deliver them.

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Jay, I am already preparing for the chomp in my butt puntive tax hike in January. With that said, I do not believe the Republicans should yield unless there is a solid “real” reduction plan for spending.

As Obama has said 1 part revenue increase and 3 parts spending reduction. Again, I am talking about real reduction in spending not reducing the increase in spending. Anybody that can do basic math realizes the tax hike is symbolic to the base only and will have no real effect on the debt but I am willing to pay more if we see real reductions in spending. To that end, I will believe it when I see it..

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It’s time to put Norquist out to pasture with his evil twin Rove.

Let’s just hope the cons will start worrying about doing their jobs instead of worrying about losing their jobs.

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**trying to explain why they still have trillion dollar deficits after raising taxes on the rich.**

As if romney/ryan would have reduced the debt with more tax cuts for the rich? We’ve seen that movie repeat and it always ends the same way, rich get richer and the debt increases – no thanks…

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Ben Shockley

Seriously, You are a liberals best friend.

Every time Ben Shockley sings
another liberal gets their wings.

You really do more good for our side than for yours.

Keep up the good work!

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I found it humourous that Grover was talking about diversity after Romney lost the election. That is like the Pope telling people how to use contraceptives correctly.

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Americans have yet to be convinced of the GOP’s willingness and ability to compromise. According to a new Gallup poll, 65 percent of Americans believe that President Obama will make a sincere effort to reach bipartisan compromise

This is also the wrong point. The problem with Obama – as usual – is his ALL TOO great willingness to compromise about things where there should be no compromise.

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I can not afford any more taxes.

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Mary Elizabeth

Wow, I can’t believe you really believe what you just posted and quoting Paul Krugman to boot…OMG…..again Wow

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Hey Redcoat and Ben, your side should try winning an election!

Losers.

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“You are on your own with that approach…while it is clearly politically incorrect to mention those who pay no taxes, especially on this site, 47% is silly intial thrust..”

I clearly stated “federal taxes” in my initial post. I should have clarified “federal income taxes” to exclude SSI.

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while it is clearly politically incorrect to mention those who pay no taxes, especially on this site

Stevie

It’s not that anybody claims that is politically incorrect, it is factually incorrect to claim that 47% pays no taxes. The 47% that pays no fed income taxes have plenty other taxes that more than make up their lack of contributing to fed income tax amounts. Basically, that whine means that you, and everybody else who bleats that crap, wants to tax grandma’s retirement, granddaddy’s pension, enlisted military personnel, and the working poor who don’t earn enough income to have a fed income tax liability.

So, if you’re going to go on record as clamoring for a tax increase on the working poor, then just come out and cheer for one instead of campaigning on incomplete and misleading information about tax collection.

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“Considering the GOP wants to vote on my civil rights, that is certainly rich and not without a profound amount of hypocrisy.”

Not all conservatives care about gay marriage. I don’t. Nor abortion.

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“Basically, that whine means that you, and everybody else who bleats that crap, wants to tax grandma’s retirement, granddaddy’s pension, enlisted military personnel, and the working poor who don’t earn enough income to have a fed income tax liability.”

I’m to believe that fully 47% of workign Americans fall into those buckets?

Liberals are so funny.

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usmc

Why gomer you’ve always had the ability to leave, just click your military issues three times and repeat; there’s no place like home… welcome back to the new socialist utopia…

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Mick

You keep thinking that about Krugman, he is way..way..out there, he believes in spending until there is no more money and then double down and spend some more. You cannot spend what you do not have, it is really not that difficult a concept.. but then again, reading at lot of these posts, perhaps it is..

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I quit reading right there.

quoting Paul Krugman to boot…OMG…

For those of you who routinely get agitated over seeing Krugthulu cited here–can you name for me a household-name economist who is *more* widely read than he?

I can see disagreeing with the guy, but to dismiss him as if he simply has no cred, especially these days, is disingenuous, I think.

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Mick

November 20th, 2012
9:35 am

Krugman isn’t even in the top 25 of respected economists…if he didn’t work for the foremost liberal rag in the history of liberal rags, he may have more credibility…he has never written a column that does not support DEM thinking hook line or sinker..

There are many more economists who take a more balanced view of things…many certainly lean left on many issues but neither side is correct 100% of the time….

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I did Mary Elizabeth, I am just not a Socialist, perhaps that is the problem..

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http://static1.firedoglake.com/29/files/2012/08/PaulKrugman_Tired.jpg

and

http://blogs.ajc.com/mike-luckovich/2012/11/19/1120-luckovich-cartoon-honey-boo-boo/

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godless heathen: “according to Paul Krugman / And I quit reading right there”

I love this idea among some of our provincial friends that Paul Krugman, columnist for the most mainstream press establishment organ we have, is somehow is paragon of the far left.

Is Krugman strident and relentlessly scathing in his denunciations of the American right? Sure. But he is a solid believer in the market and of capitalism in general, a reliable representative of a consensus that was perfectly mainstream 30-40 years ago. Nothing wild-eyed lefty about him. Just another sign of how wildly to the right our whole political spectrum has swung over the last couple of decades.

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“I found it interesting to hear Paul Ryan say that we should not allow an unelected board of people to oversee medical decisions.”

So he’s against insurance companies?

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Norquist and Krugman are both one trick poneys that should be kicked to the curb.

One somehow won a prize- the other should get second prize- a set of steak knives and a trip home.
DC should be stop doing Texas death matches on issues as this simply harms one group- us.

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“Then why don’t those stand up and say something instead of allowing it to become an (alienating) plank in the platform?”

Probably because, like me, they really don’t care one way or the other.

I don’t oppose gay marriage, but neither do I celebrate it. Same with abortion. Sorry if that is not sufficient to bolster your self esteem.

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“Why gomer you’ve always had the ability to leave, just click your military issues three times and repeat; there’s no place like home… welcome back to the new socialist utopia…”–Mic..key..Mouse!

Leave what, Mickey??? At least you are now honest and admitting to your love and yearning for Socialism. I can deal with honesty. We just disagree on the issues.

I believe in Capitalism and you believe in Socialism. Fair enough.

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@Mary Elizabeth, oh here we go :bush tax cuts, Krugman, and the devious republicans,States may be refusing to set up exchanges because frankly the state can’t afford it. Fine, mandate something, but paying for it may be a bit more complicated. Where did you teach..Atlanta public Schools,? Begun under Bush, for a teacher you are an embarassment , you need to read and read a lot, go back to 1992 or earlier..Sheesh, Read any number of books before you spew your extremely superficial thoughts….

In the immortal words of KAM;” Bush tax cuts:

there’s the sign…

Tax increases for the rich will be necessary to assuage the masses….”to the barricades”

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“Ben – I believe that 47% was YOUR number…”

Reading is fundamental, dude…..

I’m implying that I don’t believe for one minute that 47% of income-earning Americans are retired, poor, or military.

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Skittles..

there’s your sign…

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Late to the party again…I* don’t expect either side to offer a sincere compromise…I hope I’m wrong

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“The EITC was a CONSERVATIVE idea, Einstein!”

But unlike liberals, i don’t mindlessly embrace every idea my party advances.

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“Who happened to have accurately predicted the housing bubble and collapse back in 2005.”–Jewcowboy

Yeah, Krugman, GEORGE W. BUSH, and many others.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp4qEXNM

NEXT!

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Where did you teach..Atlanta public Schools,?

There’s your sign.

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“You cannot spend what you do not have, it is really not that difficult a concept”

Of course you can. You may or may not eventually have to pay it back, but you most certainly can spend what you don’t have. Ever heard of a car loan or a mortgage?

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“No, in fact I consider EITC to be a colossal joke, nothing but another welfare program, and $10,000 to you if you can find where I ever said otherwise.”

Got to love the anti-Democrat “they’re socialist” theme around here.

Republicans gave us the EITC, Medicare expansion, and Medicare Part D. They also started 2 unfunded wars that cost over a trillion dollars.

To top it off, if you bring up George W Bush, they scream and throw tantrums.

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WELCOME

I’m happy to retract any negative comments about Krugmans incentives and suspicious ommission of any economic favor toward GOP economists, if you can provide me some fodder..

There exists not shortage of balanced and thoughtful economists out there that are well above a hint of impropriety….NYT’s says it all IMO.

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‘when the bottom 47% or so contribute nothing in the way of federal taxes, is selfish, greedy, and cowardly.’

A tired mantra. For originalists, only the weatlhy were to participate in government, period. Only men who owned land could vote. Even after the civil war, discrimination denied blacks a seat at democracy’s table. The 19th amendment around 1920 (less than 100 years ago) allowed women to vote.
So there has always been an elitist bent to American democracy. But the shift seems to be, that the elites, want the power, they just don’t want the obligations that was understood to come with it.
I am fine with wealthy statesmen and stateswomen developing policy and guiding the country for the good of all. I am not fine with what’s been happening the last 30 years when the wealth of the elite has jetted so far out from the rest of society that the vacuum has caused the economic equivalent of a sonic boom. (not like an economic boom)
Jay has identified those 47%. Many are seniors who have contributed for a lifetime. Many are the less fortunate through no fault of their own that we always should care for. Many are stuck in the stagnate wage world created by an irresponsible elite.
I am all for the wealthy getting richer. It’s the way things are supposed to be. I am not for the wealthy getting richer while the rest are becoming worse off.

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STSIMMONS

Thanks…most difficult thing I ever did..much more difficult even that my actuarial exam process..be good..gotta jump.

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Don’t change a thing BAMA.

Stay the Course… Go Dawgs!

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usmc

Actually, I prefer more of a hybrid of capitalism and socialism – the best of both worlds so to speak..

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“The Republicans are the party that says government doesn’t work and then they get elected and prove it.”
–Thomas “P.J. O’Rourke” Jefferson

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jewcowboy

I was thinking much the same thing…

I do find it interesting, however, that the conservatives have not jumped on this one big time since marriage and all that brings with it is one of THE most conservative of institutions in our society. They should be championing this as their cause and, in so doing, woo no small few gay folks to their big tent given, and I know this is falling for the stereotype, we are a pretty well-heeled community and a significant component of their “53 percent who DO pay taxes.”

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Sorry, Obama got 96% of voting african americans…

This is not a GOP talking point…its true..what’s your problem?

My problem is that you’re still blowing smoke, and you’re not pointing out truths. In 2008, Obama received 95% of the vote. If he received less in 2012, he could not have received 97% OR 96%. That whole idea of Blacks voting as one block for Obama goes towards that myth of people voting for him based on race. If you, or anybody else, chooses to push that meme, I will call you on it each and every time.

Funny that people are so damned concerned about how Blacks voted for Obama, but not a damn peep about how Blacks voted for Clinton, Kerry, Gore, or any other Democratic candidate. THAT’S my problem!!!

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cons still don’t get it so I will nor help.

Keep thinking you cut after a collapse.

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“Was it true that if you take all the money all Americans earn, by working or from investments, you still couldn’t pay all the cost of government spending?”

Why not? If you took all of MY income you still couldn’t pay off what I owe on my house…but over the course of the next 15 years or so, the loan will get paid off.

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Brosephus™

I basically agree with you, blacks vote in blocks for Democrats regardless of the candidate…

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GR – ” I have seen him and listened to him enough to the point my ears were forcibly raped by his crazy a$$ed beliefs”

I bet that wasn’t actually a “legitimate” rape…

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Related to tax cuts and entitlement cuts, via Social Security and Medicare. Here are some of Krugman’s thoughts. I hope readers will objectively read his thoughts and learn from them.
———————————————————————

“Now, life expectancy at age 65 has risen, too. But the rise has been very uneven since the 1970s, with only the relatively affluent and well-educated seeing large gains. Bear in mind, too, that the full retirement age has already gone up to 66 and is scheduled to rise to 67 under current law.

This means that any further rise in the retirement age would be a harsh blow to Americans in the bottom half of the income distribution, who aren’t living much longer, and who, in many cases, have jobs requiring physical effort that’s difficult even for healthy seniors. And these are precisely the people who depend most on Social Security.

So any rise in the Social Security retirement age would, as I said, be cruel, hurting the most vulnerable Americans. And this cruelty would be gratuitous: While the United States does have a long-run budget problem, Social Security is not a major factor in that problem.

Medicare, on the other hand, is a big budget problem. But raising the eligibility age, which means forcing seniors to seek private insurance, is no way to deal with that problem.

It’s true that thanks to Obamacare, seniors should actually be able to get insurance even without Medicare. (Although, what happens if a number of states block the expansion of Medicaid that’s a crucial piece of the program?) But let’s be clear: Government insurance via Medicare is better and more cost-effective than private insurance.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/16/opinion/life-death-and-deficits.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&_r=0

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What? Repubs not rolling over to Barry’s win. I dare they!

Jay’s crystall ball is cloudy on this one. There may be some Righties who agree to higher tax rates, but a wholesale change, forgetaboutit.

Why is it Moonbats don’t understand that lowering taxes increases commerce which increases revenue? Conversely, if taxes go up, commerce goes down and the smaller revenue increase is from the tax rates.

Come to think of it. I dare state that most Moonbats don’t understand the difference between taxes and revenue.

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““That right there is a stunning display of economic illiteracy. There is no mechanism, no rational process by which that can be said to be true.”

I didn’t say it was true. It said liberals believe it to be true.

Are you seriously going to deny, Jay, that you ripped Bush in print on a regular basis for his deficits? deficits that pale in comparison to Obama’s, by the way?”

Ben – If I didn’t already know that you never back up anything you say, I’d ask you to provide a link to where Jay stsed that Bush’s deficits caused the recession, as you stated above.

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josef,

“I do find it interesting, however, that the conservatives have not jumped on this one big time since marriage and all that brings with it is one of THE most conservative of institutions in our society.’

Other conservatives have…those not kowtowed to bigoted religious dogma.

“But for me, leadership on families also means speaking out on marriage. Marriage is not just a piece of paper. It pulls couples together through the ebb and flow of life. It gives children stability. And it says powerful things about what we should value. So yes, we will recognize marriage in the tax system.

But we’re also doing something else. I once stood before a Conservative conference and said it shouldn’t matter whether commitment was between a man and a woman, a woman and a woman, or a man and another man. You applauded me for that. Five years on, we’re consulting on legalizing gay marriage.

And to anyone who has reservations, I say: Yes, it’s about equality, but it’s also about something else: commitment. Conservatives believe in the ties that bind us; that society is stronger when we make vows to each other and support each other. So I don’t support gay marriage despite being a Conservative. I support gay marriage because I’m a Conservative.” ~ David Cameron

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“Actually, I prefer more of a hybrid of capitalism and socialism – the best of both worlds so to speak..”–Mick

That sounds nice and compassionate, Mick.
The only problem is “Eventually, Socialists run out of other peoples’ money [to spend].”

We just agree to disagree and I by no means pretend to have all of the answers.

I grew up in an America that was built on Capitalism and where Socialism had NO hand in creating the most prosperous country in the history of the world.

So It will take me some time to adjust and get used to the Socialist take-over of the United States. But I will overcome, adapt, and succeed… Believe me.

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USMC – You grew up in the 1840s?

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Ben, Bobby Ryndal asked you to quit “saying stupid things.”

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“So It will take me some time to adjust and get used to the Socialist take-over of the United States. But I will overcome, adapt, and succeed… Believe me’

Great point USMC. That’s the key point the libbies will never get. Because we (conservatives) don’t pin all our hopes and dreams on government, it’s really not that big a deal that Romney lost the election.

We’ll keep doing what we do….working hard and trying to make good decisions…and let the libs fight over government crumbs.

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Norquist illustrates what happens when an ideologue runs into changing reality. They can’t adapt and they get left behind.

Maybe why some cons resist the idea of evolution. They’re on the losing branch.

What I’m waiting for is to see which Republican member of Congress goes publicly on record and tells Grover to flake off.

Morning, Stevie Ray

“47% is silly intial thrust..”

It’s not about facts, it’s not about ideas, it’s not about gaining understanding. Just look at all Ben’s initial “I’ll throw stuff out until someone responds” posts. It’s about attention. Good attention, bad attention, it doesn’t matter. He craves attention. Any attention is good attention.

I know it’s sad, but that’s a condition even the best-intentioned libs can’t do anything about. Unless it’s to give him what he wants.

Hey, ain’t that a kick? Ben has needs that can be fulfilled only on the liberal site he seeks out!

What’s the phrase? Oh yeah…

LMAO!!!

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Ben

Why not tell us how it is not?

Explain why you think off shore accounts and deductions for dancing horses apparently are?

Oh please tell us and make some more liberals while you do.

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“Bush’s deficit spending CAUSED the recession … “
“That right there is a stunning display of economic illiteracy. There is no mechanism, no rational process by which that can be said to be true.”–JAY BOOKMAN

Just when I think Jay and I are at complete PHILOSOPHICAL odds…
Bookman ‘hits it out of the park’!……. Boy, that’s frustrating!

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Morning Paul,

“Norquist illustrates what happens when an ideologue runs into changing reality. They can’t adapt and they get left behind.”

Bingo!

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usmc **Socialism had NO hand in creating the most prosperous country in the history of the world.**

Policeman, firefighters, teachers, politicians, gov’t workers of every stripe, MILITARY???
C’mon, you can do better than that..

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Tax Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Can it be cured ? Not until after the 2014 election,
if even then.

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“Keep thinking you cut after a collapse.”–Getalife

Obama “‘You Don’t Raise Taxes’ in a Bad Economy”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uoE_NicaMY

It looks like my friend Getalife and Obama disagree…. Who knew???

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Granny,

Not only did Romney pay all taxes he legally owed, there is no record of him ever receiving government handouts, and he has given tens of million to charity. His tax reords prove it.

And you call him a moocher.

How much have you given to charity?

Seriously….if you have nothing intelligent to say, please go away.

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Krugman is an excellent economist who happens to be liberal.

and sounds like a conspiracy theorist.

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“That is utter fabrication. First Ben makes up some nonsense, and then when called on it, he attempts to blame someone else for that nonsense.”

Why don’t you tell us YOUR theory of the recession Jay?

And it is duly noted that you chose not to deny that you bashed Bush repeatedly for runnign deficits that pale in comparison to Obama’s.

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Speaking of Paul Krugman….

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/19/a-public-service-reminder-paul-ryan-is-a-con-man/

He’s spot on here.

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” ‘Bush’s deficit spending CAUSED the recession … ‘

That right there is a stunning display of economic illiteracy. There is no mechanism, no rational process by which that can be said to be true.”
========================================

Paul Krugman does not contend that the Bush tax cuts CAUSED the recession, but Krugman does write that the Bush tax cuts were implemented in part in order to raise the deficit so that entitlements would have to be cut. There is a difference in causing the recession and planning deliberately to raise the deficit to force entitlement cutting. Judge for yourself. Below is what Krugman actually wrote on Feb. 22, 2010 in The New York Times:
——————————————————————-

“Rather than proposing unpopular spending cuts, Republicans would push through popular tax cuts, with the deliberate intention of worsening the government’s fiscal position. Spending cuts could then be sold as a necessity rather than a choice, the only way to eliminate an unsustainable budget deficit.

And the deficit came. True, more than half of this year’s budget deficit is the result of the Great Recession, which has both depressed revenues and required a temporary surge in spending to contain the damage. But even when the crisis is over, the budget will remain deeply in the red, largely as a result of Bush-era tax cuts (and Bush-era unfunded wars). And the combination of an aging population and rising medical costs will, unless something is done, lead to explosive debt growth after 2020.

So the beast is starving, as planned. . . .

You read it here first.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/22/opinion/22krugman.html?scp=1&sq=Paul%20Krugman,%20The%20Bankruptcy%20Boys,%202/22/10&st=Search
————————————————————————————————-

That column took courage for Krugman to write, but what he wrote needed very much to be stated outright. And, he was correct to assert that readers did read it there first.

Have a good day all. Gone for the day.

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Stevie Ray: Taking my comments out of context and painting me in some box is weak

How did I take your comments out of context? You claimed that it’s politically incorrect to bring up the 47% on this blog, right? I merely pointed out that it’s not politically incorrect as much as it is factually incorrect in the manner that most people bring it up. The manner in which you framed it was not factually correct.

If you notice, most responses to the 47% talking point are merely to point out the inaccuracy of the statement itself.

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Redcoat

You are obviously new here and are unaware of Ben’s history.

The “LMAO” was a little play on his posts – how he regularly ends them.

The ‘nothing of substance’ was also a play on Ben’s posts.

But as has been discussed in the past, I think the ‘craves attention, any attention” thought does have merit.

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It was a well intentioned plan, but there has got to be a better way to help the working poor.

here ya go.

1. A significantly higher minimum wage, guaranteed affordable health insurance, and vastly improved transit infrastructure so, taken together, these folks will have more literal and figurative mobility.

2. LOWERING the age where you qualify for SS and Medicare so that more young folks have job opportunities as the older folks bow out a bit sooner than they otherwise would.

3. Confiscate some of the old farts’ accumulated wealth the old-fashioned way–allow for some modest inflation to occur as we incur a bit more overall debt to pay for 1) and 2) without having a collective nation-wide crap-fit.

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We as a country need to decide what things we wish government to supply to us and then tax ourselves accordingly to pay for them. I am not talking about one small group deciding for everyone, and I am not talking about the normal “let’s tax everyone else but me” syndrome.

There are some things I think the government need to supply – defense, minimum retirement, minimum healthcare – does ANYONE think we should let people DIE if they don’t have money?

I think that Social Security should be self-sustaining for the LONG haul – it has its own revenue stream. If we don’t want to increase the retirement age and we are living longer, we need to increase the amount of PERSONAL taxes that people pay. And don’t increase the maximum income level if you aren’t going to give the higher braket people more SS payments.

I think Medicare should also be self-sustaining (and it is a LONG way from it). It does NOT need to be subsidized by the regular budget. Medicare taxes need to go up on the INDIVIDUAL to cover the increased expenses. And whoever instituted the Medicare Part D for people who never paid into it are numbskulls. If you want it, you have to pay for it.

Take things like transportation (roads) out of the budget and use their revenue streams (gas tax) to determine their budget.

What you are left with has to be paid with mainly from income taxes. Of this, about 40% is Defense spending (ALL defens – Dept. of Homeland Security, DOD, wars, veterans benefits). Medicaid is 12%, interest (can’t change) is 17%. Where do we cut? Or do we increase our revenue to pay for what we want? ( I am fine with doing away with deductions to increase revenue to give cover to Republicans for their pledge – whatever works).

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Redcoat

““That is utter fabrication. First Ben makes up some nonsense, and then when called on it, he attempts to blame someone else for that nonsense.”

Why don’t you tell us YOUR theory of the recession Jay?”

See? When the structure of Ben’s posts is pointed out, he does not respond to it, Instead, he attempts to deflect onto the poster.

You’ll see the patterns emerge if you just look for them, Redcoat. They’re not unique to Ben. Quite common in today’s political discourse, actually.

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The gop final analysis of the two thumpins is:

“Need better candidates”.

They will continue to lose.

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… as for item #3 @ 10.15, I wasn’t speaking of the vast majority of old farts, of course. However, given that the median age of the 20 richest Americans is 68 (the median age of all Americans is 37), it seemed a reasonable thing to post.

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“trying to find out what caused the recession if it wasn’t the Bush tax cuts and deficits.”

I think most people would tell you that the recession was caused by the banking industry getting into bad loans and, with the housing market collapse, the failures spiraled out of control. I have not heard anyone say that deficit spending had anything to do with the recession. It COULD in the future – when we run out of natural borrowing capacity (i.e. – no one will loan any more to us).

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Why do the guys all look like perverts? Rush, Grover Norquist, Joe McCarthy, they all look like the kind of men you protect your children against. The guy who operates the crooked game at the traveling carnival. How do such nasty people get the ear of politicians?

This is the new world of the Republican; this is why they can’t put a candidate on a ballot for president that has any substance. Their new game, to rule by minority, is to find pockets of resistance, in the grass, political terrorist whose hate becomes so strong they just about forgot what they are mad about. This was an easy game for the segregationist of the south, 75% of the land in the south could not pick up national news, and the local radio stations were swamped with fire breathing preachers and funeral announcements. Forgotten people who never saw the larger picture, point of reference was the Civil War fought decades before not very current forward thinking people. The Republican Party is dying a very public death. The only thing that keeps the doors open is money, and the love of it by its masters. The will of free men is a beautiful thing; it will trump this Nixonist paranoia, already starting to. Pursuit of happiness of the majority not the minority is how it goes.

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“Need better candidates”.

What you mean Perry, Cain, Bachmann, Newt, Romney, and Santorum weren’t good candidates?

Oh, and Paul Ryan. He voted for all of that crazy Bush era spending then Republicans tried to get him promoted.

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moochers???..

it has been posted and linked here before that if every tax is included..fed, state, sales, payroll, etc..we all pay @ 27% across the board from the super poor to the super rich…the proportions change but the net % is the same.

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Wow…Newt Gingrich paid 31.7% in taxes

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“His tax return shows that over two years he and his wife, Ann, gave $7 million in charitable contributions”

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I would just offer the Australian & German models of social democracy. Those 2 countries have the best system right now, healthiest banks, and the most opportunity for the avg person/family. We should not be arrogant ugly Americans right now. We should take the best ideas & use them.

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Hi Josef!

Did I see you walking down my sidewalk on D_L_M__T yesterday on your way to school???

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Wow Granny…Romney a moocher? Seriously?

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I mean D_LM__T.

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“Why is it Moonbats don’t understand that lowering taxes increases commerce which increases revenue? Conversely, if taxes go up, commerce goes down and the smaller revenue increase is from the tax rates.”

With higher taxes under Clinton, 23 million jobs were created.

With lower taxes under Bush, there was a net jobs loss.

So your statement is pure BS.

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Agree that the Presidential Election Campaign Fund should be removed. I can’t remember the last time I checked “yes” to that.

I really do not get why people don’t check that box every time. Is it because they prefer having elections funded by the plutocracy?

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EC @ 10:25

Those with an ideological talking point to push don’t quit simply because facts don’t agree with them. They run over facts like Jerome Bettis trying to score a touchdown.

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“Why do the guys all look like perverts?”–GT

I guess it takes ONE to know ONE…

(never thought I would need that one after third grade, who knew.)

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“What country did you grow up in? Socialism has been part of the US fabric for many years. We can debate the degree and extent but the existence is not a debatable point in terms of it being part of the fabric.”—Johnny Walker Black Label

-not intended to be a factual statement

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“Oh really? Seeing as how he never released a single complete tax return you got nothing to back that up”

You mean you have no faith in the IRS?

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stands

“However, in practice, those “tax reform” efforts get whittled away very quickly. an increased tax rate is the sort of thing that lasts a good long time.”

That’s a key point. Republicans can hold fast on no marginal rate changes, agree to eliminate deductions…. then, over the course of time, quietly slip into bills changes that whittle away at those exemptions, thus taking us right back to where we are now.

Which is, I think, why Republicans were so adamant against top-tier marginal rate increases until it became obvious theirs was a minority view among the public.

I’m still chuckling over Bill Kristol’s remark of ” The Republican Party is going to fall on its sword to defend a bunch of millionaires, half of whom voted Democratic and half of them live in Hollywood?” he said.

“It won’t kill the country if we raise taxes a little bit on millionaires,” Kristol added. “It really won’t, I don’t think. I don’t really understand why Republicans don’t take Obama’s offer.”

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/bill-kristol-taxes-millionaires-republicans-obama-boehner-fiscal-cliff-2012-11#ixzz2CmGGix2Q

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“With lower taxes under Bush, there was a net jobs loss.””

There was a net job gain until the housing market imploded due to fraud and corruption courtesy of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and the FHA.

That fact is always left out.

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DannyX …..Will Obama lead us to utopia? by cutting all those conservative socialist programs? Save the taxpayer some money since they are not necessary….right? You are right, big government is too big….I’m sure it’s going to really shrink up now?…..right?

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“What country did you grow up in?”

The NON-Socialist, United States of America… That one.

But hey, elections have consequences and my side lost, so I will adapt to the NEW Socialist agenda of the Democratic Party.

Trust me, I’ll be just fine. It’s the Nation as a whole and the future that concerns me.

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DannyX you keep running your boys. Reminds me of Tin Cup where the guy kept doing take overs until he lost the Open.

You guys keep saying you aren’t getting your message out, one billion dollars and you can’t get your message out? Kind of like your “its the economy stupid” maybe it is not message the people don’t like it you and all the perfume in the world with you under it is can’t hide the pigs you are.

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When did Krugman become a median, mind reader, and palm reader?

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The Bidens are not wealthy silly.

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Ben-did you miss this part from your linkie?

•The Romneys have a whole lot of accounts in the Caymans and elsewhere–I feel like I spent half an hour paging through form 8621s, which gave no information other than the fact that . . . they have a lot of accounts in the Caymans and elsewhere. Which we already knew.

Gawd, cons are so stoopid.

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getalife 10:37

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There was a net job gain until the housing market imploded due to fraud and corruption courtesy of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and the FHA.

That fact is always left out.

I find it interesting at how deeply ingrained into our society is the mantra of “privatize rewards and socialize failures”. Anytime there is finger pointing at wrongdoing, the fingers rarely get pointed at private sector contributors. Wrongdoing is almost always the fault of the government agencies most involved. At the same time, any good that happens is never attributed to government but it’s always because of the private sector. No wonder we live in such a country where the government repeatedly bails out the private sector instead of letting them deal with their own f**k ups. And some people claim that we don’t like socialism here in America. Hell, our private sector thrives on it.

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“As opposed to actually BEING perverts, like Bill Clinton, John Edwards, Andy Weiner, etc”

Nothing says pervert like Sen Vitter wearing a diaper while playing with a hooker. Of course playing tap-tap-tappity-tap in a public restroom trying to score a young stud like Sen Craig is pretty right up there. Maybe you prefer a hot Argentine babe like Gov Sanford, or a serial adulterer like Georgia Presidential primary winner Newt Gingrich…or…

Hey Sen Vitter….Huggies or Pampers????

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The Bidens are not wealthy silly.

They make less than $250k/yr?

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“Why is it Moonbats don’t understand that lowering taxes increases commerce which increases revenue? Conversely, if taxes go up, commerce goes down and the smaller revenue increase is from the tax rates.”

And just how exactly does that happen? You lower taxes on the rich (that is what we are talking about, right) so they do what with the extra money? They invest it in the stock market so they can make MORE money (taxed at only 15%) and keep accumulating the money! Right? Rich people aren’t the ones spending their millions to “increase commerce”. It is a very tenuous link – one that has been disproven in actuality.

I more direct link would be to hand money out to the poor people – who will immediately spend it and create more economic activity.

But I dislike using tax policy to try to drive the economy – it is too uncertain. Why don’t we just tax ourselves the minimum need to balance the budget during bad times, and in good times pay down the national debt. Then when the bad times roll around again and unemployment is rampant, you can borrow to get yourself on your feet and then pay it off again. Sort of like a family having an “emergency credit card”.

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Socialism has been part of the US fabric for many years.

Duh?!

OF COURSE, it has been!

But how in the hell would you expect our fake conservative semi-literates to grok this???

1) Public Schools
2) The Military
3) Police and Firefighters
4) The Highway System
5) The Federal Park System
6) Drinking water, street lights and other infrastructure
7) The US Postal Service

Among numerous other examples…

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I don’t trust anyone named Grover.

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“1) Public Schools
2) The Military
3) Police and Firefighters
4) The Highway System
5) The Federal Park System
6) Drinking water, street lights and other infrastructure
7) The US Postal Service

None of those are examples of socialism.

But thanks for playing.

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josef
I just don’t get it…two demographics tailor made for conservatives…

completely agree…it makes no rational sense

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“Need some more?”

Sure. Barney Frank comes to mind.

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Anybody seen Granny?

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josef

Maybe logic isn’t a strong point for some of the strategists. I think the disconnect comes in due to the idea that Blacks and Latinos personally know the struggles that many endure here. Even with more conservative ideals, the compassion extended to those who struggle outweighs the conservative leanings.

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Paul……Do you think Ben is the only one that fits your description and observances?

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republicans are irrelevant.

Not just yet, brother Mick. But we are helping this version of the GOP get there!

They are stuck in an era which is over.

Shhhhhhhhhhh! Don’t let them know!

LOL.

As always, brilliant analysis, Ben.

With your vast and proven intellectual prowess to dismantle and countermand opposing arguments with facts, data and evidence, you should run for the RNC Chair!

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Granny,

The Romney’spay millions in taxes every year, donate millions to charity, and have never received government handouts.

It’s your responsibility to back up your claim that they are “moochers.”

Good luck sweetie.

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“The Romney’spay millions in taxes every year, donate millions to charity, and have never received government handouts.”

So glad Romneycare includes abortion coverage.

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“Our military is socialism silly.”–Getalife

Getalife, the MILITARY is not a government…. and is NOT socialist. It’s a MILITARY.

Geaux Tigers! (and Dawgs!)

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I think most people have had enough of the “moocher” talk from Republicans. It makes all of you look like idiots, Ben. It’s too bad that R’s think this is a persuasive strategy. Keep it up and all you R’s will have to crawl back under your hateful little rocks and live there for good. The fact is, R’s think everybody is trying to “mooch” off of them personally, even when it is actually R’s that are the moochers–old, angry white people living off of Medicare, SS and Medicaid yelling about how everybody but them are moochers. Really. Sickening. Best advice is, knock it off.

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Krugman is having his time in the sun, his 15 minutes of fame, interesting fellow, obviously bright is trying to read the minds of republicans. If he would restrict his thoughts to economic analysis,one would have to take him seriously every time he opens his mouth now he is looking like a fool, but Mary Elizabeth will cintinue to praise him, I choose to praise Schumpeter, not because of his economic thoughts. He was simply a dandy with the ladies in Vienna and thumbed his nose at the conventional.

@ Paul, Kristol makes good points. Hopefully what motivates these repubs to resist this increase in taxes is the old concept of if I give something(more taxes),you give something (less give aways), a play school activity that our politicians have forgotten about. Let us both hope they will not listen to the extremes of both parties( always the loudest) and compromisee, Cheers…

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When he became and economist…it came with the chicken foot and gris-gris…

I admit his early work is very very good…. it’s when he stopped being an economist to be a political pundit I stopped paying attention to him

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Paul …..my perception of reading these comments on this blog leave me to conclude that most here would want or favor a socialist government and or a bigger spending government. I’m I wrong? and that conservatism is causing or have caused all our current financial and social problems. I’m I wrong?

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“Sure. Barney Frank comes to mind”

Really? Prove that one. Face it, the list is LONG on Republicans, and there are quite a few more. Come one, admit it, your guys are a lot more, shall we say, ACTIVE in the pervert zone…

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“they get attacked like the black conservatives.”

And run out of Congress…RIP Congressman West!

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RF…”your perverts out number our perverts” is a silly if not losing argument for moral high ground

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Ben

I’ll do it again

a 13% tax rate for 10 years (unproven), tax deductions for a dancing horse and off shore accounts.

Gifts….Gifts….Gifts…

Just cause you don’t agree that they are gifts don’t mean they aren’t

my little dumpling!

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“RF…”your perverts out number our perverts” is a silly if not losing argument for moral high ground”

Not when Republicans sell themselves as the party of family values.

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Barney Frank….1989 was it? As I recall it:

“Frank requested an investigation by the House Ethics Committee. The 10-month probe found that Frank did not, in fact, know about the happenings in his home but that he should be reprimanded for use of House privilege in waiving 33 of Gobie’s parking tickets and for writing a memo that attempted to end Gobie’s probation for a prior infraction. Despite attempts by former Idaho Congressman Larry Craig (the stall-inator) to have the Massachusetts Congressman removed, Frank went on to win several re-elections by wide margins.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1721111_1721210_1883878,00.html #ixzz2CmMYkrTz

How ironic that his main accuser was Larry Craig. Perhaps he was just jealous that he couldn’t come out and be open?

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Not when Republicans sell themselves as the party of family values.

or are you saying it’s okay for Dems because they never claimed they weren’t perverted?…really?

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Just can’t wait to get your greedy little mitts on more of those rich people’s money can you libs?

If you aren’t willing to give up some of your free stuff and aren’t willing to ever actually give your ” few thousand” more, you’re going to continue running out of other people’s money.

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Erwin: outnumber….outnumber?? How about putting some exponents on that one? The problem is, your guys get caught after pushing legislation on marriage and abortion and gay rights that completely contradicts their personal lives behind the scenes. It’s the hypocrisy of their public statements and private dalliances that make them all the more ridiculous.

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Ben Shockley

November 20th, 2012
10:48 am

“The Romney’spay millions in taxes every year, donate millions to charity, and have never received government handouts.”

ummmmmmmm

As Bain made its investment, the state and county pledged $37 million in subsidies and grants for the $385-million plant project. The county also levied a new income tax to finance infrastructure improvements to benefit the steel mill over the heated objections of some county residents.

Corporate welfare at its finest.

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“1) Public Schools
2) The Military
3) Police and Firefighters
4) The Highway System
5) The Federal Park System
6) Drinking water, street lights and other infrastructure
7) The US Postal Service

I am not surprised to red such an unintelligent and ignorant statement by a blogger on JAY BOOKMAN’s blog, even-though, I know JAMVET to be neither.(even-though he roots for Nebraska)

Socialism is an ECONOMIC system… it’s not the military or the post office, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

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Now they respect him and want him to try for Middle East peace

I thought that was his wife’s job?

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independent thinker

November 20th, 2012
11:03 am

Its hard out here for the $250 million man..lol

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And what is Jay and his fraternity of feckless freeloaders blogging about today? Raising taxes! Never saw that one coming.

It’s common knowledge that every dime raised in taxes will be immediately spent on freebies for the moocher classes (aka lib ilks) on such things as Obamaphones, band aids, rubbers and such.

Many here of course will dispute that, offering that we need a “balanced” approach towards deficit reduction which will include tax increases (only on undeserving ingrates called the rich) but also spending reductions. How reasonable!

The only problem is that never in the history of the universe have lib ilks actually reduced federal spending. Nothing has changed to cause anyone to think otherwise this time.

Tax increases must be off the table until the Dems can prove that spending can be reduced substantially over a period of time, say ten years.

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“I thought that was his wife’s job?”

First she will try then a special envoy will try.

Politics is just not one proposal silly.

Krugman is credible, rw economists and media are not.

You should have learned this by now cat.

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Sinkwich: as I recall, Obama has offered, numerous times, spending cuts of at least 2.5 to 1 over revenue increases. How much more does he have to put on the table?

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” I suspect the same will indeed be true for Obama.”

President Clinton’s foundation has been helping the world since he left.

I think President Obama will continue to serve like Clinton and not hide in a bunker like w and cheney.

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You are trying to shove your perverted words down my throat. Disgusting.

Kam has an expression for that kind of tripe

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Ben Shockley

“2) The Military
None of those are examples of socialism.”

Care to tell us how military health care is not an example of socialism?

You do know all about military health care, don’t you?

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Is socialism frowned upon by any Dem/Lib on this blog? Does anyone think it’s a system our country should go to? The theory sounds great but in practice what is the outcome? Has a socialist country been more successful than our form of government? It seems to me the more our country slips toward socialism, the less successful our country is becoming? Am I wrong?

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get – First she will try and fail then a special envoy will try.

fixed your typo…do you expect her to fail?

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We’re down to who’s the less perverted party.. RF, agree and the hypocrisy on both sides is nauseating, especially those who push the family values…
Mary,teacher, purveyour of thoughtless dribble, you don’t have a novel thought, 35 years of teaching middle schoolers and that is what you are. Harsh words, but it is what it is. Stay ignorant and you will continue to marginalize yourself, Goodness…You are welcome, Good morning Class..Sheesh

Finally, so Granny you are preparing dumplings, when do we come over, I LOVE dumplings….

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The wealthy can pay more and it will not hurt them but keep slobbering all over them cons.

We will focus on the middle class and keep winning for them and not the wealthy.

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“So you are saying that the Dems can be perverted because they never pretended not to be?? Is that your argument?”

NOPE. They’ve done their share of it, DUH. But at least they aren’t masquerading as morally perfect about their lives. Barney Frank never hid his sexuality and even asked for an investigation during his “scandal”…which cleared him of anything worse than fixing parking tickets for his then lover.

All I’m saying is, and read this carefully, you have quite a few more examples of it on the Republican side from guys who have put up quite the elaborate image of the perfect American lifestyle while their private actions indicate something else. They want to legislate morality while they sneak around in the shadows doing all sorts of things. It’s the hypocrisy that gets me. I don’t give a hoot who’s doing what off the clock- but don’t pretend to be oh-so-perfect and above it all either.

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@getalife, please define middle class, I’m interested….seems like a term we through around with little knowledge of the definition…Thanks..Also how do you define wealthy…

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Redcoat @:

You are CORRECT sir. I ,however, would like to congratulate the usual suspects and Jay Bookman who are now at least being HONEST and admitting that they advocate for SOCIALISM…

And in the words of Jeff Foxworthy:

“If you advocate for SOCIALISM… You are most certainly a SOCIALIST!”
(or something like that)

BOO! Socialist!

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“I want to thank you and your Bayou Tigers for SOFTENING up BAMA for the SECCG!

Geaux Dawgs!”

We showed you and the Aggies how to beat them but you have to play your best game of the year.

Les went off on a reporter when he called our team a bust. I thought he was going to attack the reporter and never seen him talk like that.

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Josef no cable, weak grainy pictures, weak radio signals all over the south, the rural hated the city and in those days the city was white so it is not just a race thing, the country boys have always hated education. And the city guys thought the country boys were greasy thugs with single digit IQs.

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People like this Norquist guy are why Obama needs to shut the WH
doors (after the Beyonce/Snoop Dog concert heheh) and lock it down
until Jan 2nd.

Come out on Jan 2nd, and say, ” I will not sign ANY tax package
that doesn’t have increased rates on high income AND cap gains.

Walk back in the WH and shut the door. And dont come back out.
Don’t even peek out the window.

Trust your accountant on this one.

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you have quite a few more examples of it on the Republican side…

really what’s the ratio?

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“It’s common knowledge that every dime raised in taxes…”

It’s common knowledge that I will quarterback the 49ers to victory in the Super Bowl next year…

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“The wealthy can pay more and it will not hurt them but keep slobbering all over them cons.”–Getalife

… AND it won’t fix our problems either… not in the least.

All tax hikes do is satisfy the SOCIALISTS/WEALTH ENVY

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“Mitt Romney lost big on election night”

Really? Obama won the popular vote by less than 1%. That’s not what I would term losing big on election night. Plus, these congressmen who were elected by their districts have just as much a mandate from their constituency as the president.

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“… AND it won’t fix our problems either… not in the least.”

It is a start not a solution silly.

Do you want to start to address the deficit or not?

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mitt lost worse than mccain and it gets worse the next cycle but stay the course cons.

You will never learn anything.

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Redcoat

“my perception of reading these comments on this blog leave me to conclude that most here would want or favor a socialist government and or a bigger spending government. I’m I wrong? and that conservatism is causing or have caused all our current financial and social problems. I’m I wrong?”

I think blogs attract people who, if they don’t hold views at the margins, tend to express themselves as such on blogs.

My perception is that it is much more likely here for conservatives to tell liberals what liberals think or do and then proceed as if that is the truth. It’s the same pattern I heard on Limbaugh when I listened to him yesterday, so I suppose it’s understandable.

As far as the socialism thing, the previous thread on the future of capitalism is a good read – Jay’s comments. As he points out, definitions are elastic and vary with the person. But as you’ve seen here, some conservatives write as if there’s one definition, even though they won’t define it.

I think many liberals here will make the point that conservative governments, implementing decidedly unconservative principles (cutting taxes and going into debt to fund wars and social programs), not regulating powerful business interests, not looking out for public lands, have had a negative impact. I think they’d also make the point that ‘bigger government’ is one of those terms like ’socialism’ that’s hard to define. If ‘bigger’ means more military spending, upwards of 20 percent, as Republicans advocated in the last election, then the answer is likely ‘no.’ If it’s pay for more people performing oversight of consumer protection and financial regulation institutions and not going into debt for it, then the answer is likely ‘yes.’

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Looking at the numbers for Romeny, his problem isn’t that he only paid 14% in taxes.
He seems to have short-changed the church to the tune of about half a million.
The Mormon church is a stickler for that 10% thing.

Now that Mitt has lost his Secret Service bubble, I expect the elders are knocking at Romney’s door right about now…”Fork it over Willard!”

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“Sinkwich: as I recall, Obama has offered, numerous times, spending cuts of at least 2.5 to 1 over revenue increases.”

Nope. Wrong.

Only losers believe everything euro-socialist Marxists say. Like you.

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alex

Be careful. Sue Ellen’ll hike up her hoop skirts and challenge you to a mud wressle if you disagree with her too much.

RF
I agree with you on the why “their” scandals are more of note…it’s not that there or more or even more spectacular (though I would posit this latter is true), but the hypocrisy of it…”their” scandals involving those who were not beating the values tom tom tend not to get that much play…i.e. Paul Babeu…”…yeah, he was my boyfriend, and, no, I didn’t threaten to have him deported…” To me, that latter one was a red-letter date in our journey to equality…

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Reasonable people can come to reasonable conclusions under reasonable conditions unless you are a republican.

Proven everyday right here.

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GT

November 20th, 2012
11:20 am

_____

It’s not past tense. I still don’t like those city boys. And city boys don’t like country boys.

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The 49ers looked great with their back up quarterback from Nevada.

We have to beat them and the Falcons again.

We are playing well but not that well.

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mitt lost worse than mccain ……
um..no he didn’t in the PV…mccain was down 10M and Mitt was down 3M
Obama also had a smaller turnout …down about 9M from ‘08

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By being a tax evader Romeny if fact is a parasite.

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USMC,

I went to North Platte High School during those back to back national championships in 70 and 71.

HELL YES, I’M A HUSKER FAN!

Through thick and thin. And always will be.

Go Big Red!

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cat,

Two thumpins equals a mandate for change.

It is here.

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Ok, lets call all those that voted for our President middle class then.

Just say you really do not know as opposed to continue to provide silly answers…

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“mitt lost worse than mccain ……
um..no he didn’t in the PV”

The president, as you all know, is not elected by popular vote – I think some use that figure to make themselves feel better than acknowledging that President Obama actually won the election by about 62% – 38%.

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get reeal,

You are stuck in losing rw talking points.

Stay the course son.

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This goes especially to thogwumpy (if you’re still here) although I doubt he will believe it because if’s not Rush doing the talking.

BTW, Socialism is where the proletariat (i.e., workers) control the means of production and not the bourgeoisie (i.e., capital). No more, no less. It’s amazing to see the various “definitions” of socialism advanced here. For instance, if the workers at Hostess, through there unions, purchased hostess, then that would be (to a degree) socialism.

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Absolutely….stop spending more than we have….until that is done we will not get anywhere. Socialism is a wonderful thing until you run out of other people’s money

–

The goal in government is to decide what services you want the government to have, and then plan how to raise the revenue to pay for it.

Whether taxes are too low or too high at any point is relative to what your idea of government is. Same with whether spending is too low or too high.

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Regnad – hardly…10 states were won by less than 100k votes…I get the EC thing but it is hardly a metric for a “thumping” or a “mandate”…the pendulum can easily swing the other way while you are thumping your chest

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“the pendulum can easily swing the other way”

No, the gop decided to stay the course so you will continue to lose.

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“Regnad – hardly…10 states were won by less than 100k votes…I get the EC thing but it is hardly a metric for a “thumping” or a “mandate”…the pendulum can easily swing the other way while you are thumping your chest”

I don’t disagree, EC. Also, I should have said something more like, “Obama is projected to win by about 62% – 38%,” since the election has not yet occurred…

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Alex,

Mary,teacher, purveyour of thoughtless dribble, you don’t have a novel thought, 35 years of teaching middle schoolers and that is what you are. Harsh words, but it is what it is. Stay ignorant and you will continue to marginalize yourself, Goodness…You are welcome, Good morning Class..Sheesh
================================================

TO ALEX, you are still spouting error and still spouting foolish stereotypes. Let me spell it out to you directly, ALEX: Anyone who writes a post such as yours, above, is a disgrace to the teaching profession.

And, if you had bothered to read my post on the previous thread you would have realized that I did not spend my educational career teaching middle school children, but seniors in high school and adults who were teachers.

Error and stereotypes fill your mind and fill your posts and you have the gall to lecture me! Foolish, arrogant man.

The link below will give my post to you – one more time – if you care to be informed, accurately. My post is next to last.

IMO, you are an arrogant, pompous j*rk who has the gall to call others juvenile names and then assume you are educated. What arrogance and ignorance, you possess in combination and without any self-awareness. I pity you.

http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2012/11/19/the-future-of-capitalism-will-not-look-like-its-past/?cp=5

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alex,

I am talking to you, an ignorant con so I will dumb it down for you.

The wealthy does not need your help or government welfare help.

When you finally grasp this fact we can talk like adults.

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…but the post-election response has also revealed an absence of basic respect for the man among conservatives. It is hard to recall a candidate so thoroughly and quickly repudiated by those who just a few days earlier were touting him for the most important job on the planet.

The consequences of frauds who vote for a………………………… fraud.

And Rove and Norquist are but two of the more morally disgusting, intellectually dishonest men, among many others over the past thirty years, who have brought the once Grand Old Party to its current pathetic state.

Well done to those who enabled them…

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If every one of the jack@sses inside the beltway remembered just one thing;

They represent the entire district/state/country that elected them and not just those that voted for them

We’d get a lot more done in the country.

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GT

“Josef no cable,”

No one had cable during segregation.

“…weak grainy pictures,”

Pretty much the case outside the city in any part of the country at the time…

” weak radio signals all over the south,”

Say what? WLS–iiiin Chicago…great radio station in its day…the South received the same signals from the same places as the rest of America…

“he rural hated the city and in those days the city was white so it is not just a race thing, ”
That’s pretty much the case the world over…

“the country boys have always hated education.”

Really? And how do you arrive at that conclusion. My rural experience was quite the opposite,

“And the city guys thought the country boys were greasy thugs with single digit IQs.”
Only the elitist snobs…most of the city boys in the South went home weekends to those small town cradles that rocked them to spend time with their folks…

I’m sorry to sound so, well, cantankerous,, but I’m a proud product of that socio-economic cultural environment you seem to hold in such low esteem and I;m sorry if I don’t fit your comfortable stereotypes, but more than the personal, the idea that “folks out there” are out of touch with the mainstream of society is, well, ignorance of the highest level. I’ve had discussions of the role of Shylock with Bubba at the county line…was or was he not an anti-semitic depiction. Have you?

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You are stuck in losing rw talking points

No talking points, you just could never answered the original question

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“but I’m a proud product of that socio-economic cultural environment you seem to hold in such low esteem”

Blows their minds to find out educated folks actually hail from the small hamlets of the great American countryside.

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BROSEPHUS

Will do!

FROG

Oh, did they ever!

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President Obama and Clinton chose the hard way to govern by focusing on the middle class and not just the wealthy.

The gop will stay the course to take the easy way out and govern for the wealthy only.

The gop will continue to lose.

Hope that clears it up for you not so bright cons.

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No i did not read your post, , I have read your posts enough, no need to link..i have the arrogance to lecture YOU, why, I can’t believe it, someone has the ARROGANCE to lecture ME, HOW ARROGANT, it’s ME afterall,..Sheesh you are an imbecile. More responses: ouch, ouch, ouch,wow that was really mean, oh my the teacher is mad, ouch,,here comes the ruler, ouch…I’m aware of the ruler, ouch, ditto….

Anyway.. Interesting article in Time, Nov. 26th on investing: discussion with the 2 heads of PIMCO about taxes and growth, a little something for BOTH sides to chew on..These guys are pretty smart for us laymen. More taxes for the wealthy and the future ain’t so bright in any case. The last 40 years have been a boon, time to regress to the mean…OUCH!

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“Do you want to start to address the deficit or not?
Absolutely….stop spending more than we have….until that is done we will not get anywhere. Socialism is a wonderful thing until you run out of other people’s money”

What, are the rich going to starve if we increse their taxes from 15% to 25%?

Which programs do you wnat to cut SIGNIFICANTLY? Do away with Medicaid and let the poor die? (or do you just “tax” the rest of us by having them seen in hospitals and have us insurance holders pay for it) Are you going to stop having wars without the means to pay for them (Iraq, Afganistan)? Are you going to repeal the Medicare Part D and severly cut back Medicare for the seniors since it is not funded? Are you going to default on our legally owed interest? Close all Federal Prisons? Even if you did away with EITC and all other “welfare” – such as SNAP, it would not make a dent in the deficit. The only other BIG, BIG item is defense spending. Gonna cut Department of Homeland Security? Or just cut the military down to bare bones? No one wants to pay more taxes, but they want their government services. It is about time we ALL ponied up the true amount of money we should be paying. And in my opinion, tht should include a minimum 5% income tax on the 47% who currently pay no tax (balanced of course with the removal of the special tax rate on “capital gains” – it need to go to the max).

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@ stands for, lowering the age of medicare, really, you think who will pay for that, Mobility is good, to find jobs that exist where…Confiscate wealth on old farts, you are brilliant, why didn’t anyone else think of that, simply amazing incite…..Where’s the Nobel committee,

you left out education , that MIGHT help, mabye, just a little or we could give FREE marta cards to enhance mobility…

alex, I’m not sure how serious you were in this reply, but since you seemed interested:

1. a proposal was floated ever so briefly in 2009 to allow people between 55-64 to buy into Medicare. We could start with that and see how it worked. It would need some subsidy, but it’d likely be less expensive to the nation than funding these folks through private insurance as most do, currently.

2. I spoke of mobility in both the literal and figurative sense. If you have affordable heath insurance through single payer, employers aren’t stuck providing this benefit their workers, and employees are stuck working at crap jobs they don’t want but have to, because moving onward (or starting their OWN company) means losing that benefit.

3. the “confiscation” was mostly tongue in cheek. however, I think we’ve developed an unhealthy inflation-phobia and yes, I think it is mostly due to the 1%ers’ efforts to cling to their own accumulated wealth.

4. I did leave out education, since I think that’s well-trod ground. Overall though I think every state should provide what GA does in the way of subsidized education beyond k-12 (whether college or vocational), to good students. I’m not thrilled about financing them through lotteries, though.

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weak radio signals all over the south,”

Say what? WLS–iiiin Chicago…great radio station in its day…the South received the same signals from the same places as the rest of America…

________

WSB was a clear chanel station, heard at night all over the country. So was WSM in Nashville and a station in New Orlearns.

There was a federal limit on stations that were allowed that status. They early ones did, but a limit to the number of those stations was imposed by the FCC.

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I have never understood the attraction of Norquist to Republicans what with his close attachments to the Islamic movement in the US.

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The top rate will likely go back to 39.6%. That along with the Medicare surtax of 3.8% could put some taxpayers’ top rate at close to 43.4%. Also, Democrats want everyone to lose their special treatment on capital gains and qualified dividends. A number of tax payers will see their personal and itemized deductions disappear as well. All these tax increases may persuade our most productive citizens to think twice before investing in the economy and will cause an economic slow-down that will affect the very taxpayers the Democrats are trying to help. The wealthy among us know the old rule that capital goes where it’s welcome and stays where it’s treated well: And if it ain’t treated well in the USA, they’ll take it somewhere else.

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middle of the road

November 20th, 2012
11:50 am

____

I think he wants to cut all federal progams passed or enacted since 1932. Or make that since McKinley was shot and Teddy Roosevelt took office.

That to the right was the downfall of our republic. Everything that happenned since President McKinley.

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There are no gifts unless you are wealthy.

Tax cuts, welfare and owning government with donations.

The deck is stacked but we are working to change that.

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Oscar I actually went to college and met my first southern country boys. Great memories, not near as dumb as I was told. The college boys aren’t dictating the politics either place now day, most of the country I knew live in Buckhead now leaving South Georgia for greener glazing. Wonder why?

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josef
November 20th, 2012
11:27 am

“alex
Be careful. Sue Ellen’ll hike up her hoop skirts and challenge you to a mud wressle if you disagree with her too much”
=================================================

Josef, let me also be more blunt with you than I have in the past. You can consider these words that I wrote to Alex, also my assessment of you:

“IMO, you are an arrogant, pompous j*rk who has the gall to call others juvenile names and then assume you are educated. What arrogance and ignorance, you possess in combination, and without any self-awareness. I pity you.”

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“Did you fill out the order form? You need to do that first, then send it to the US Department of Gifts. You should have them in a couple of weeks.”

Da,m! I’ll go back to the FOX website, and see if I can find a link to the order form. Thanks!

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And don’t forget folks, the socialist president did, in fact, meet with 12 big CEOs in advance of the fiscal cliff talks with Congress. David Cote, CEO of Honeywell International said the meeting between Obama and CEOs “actually went very well. He recognizes that we’re one big debt deal away from the potential of having a terrific recovery…”

Even the CEO of Wal-Mart was positive about the meeting. Shoot, you’d think the president actually respected capitalism or something…

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alex — “No i did not read your post, , I have read your posts enough, no need to link..i have the arrogance to lecture YOU, why, I can’t believe it, someone has the ARROGANCE to lecture ME, HOW ARROGANT, it’s ME afterall,..Sheesh you are an imbecile.”

You know, alex, I thought something similar about *you* yesterday during our discussion of FNMA and FHLMC, but I had the good grace not to post it.

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Never said it did.

sure about that?

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What, are the rich going to starve if we increse their taxes from 15% to 25%?

You need to separate capital gains from income tax, 2 entirely different things…

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Oscar I actually went to college and met my first southern country boys. Great memories, not near as dumb as I was told. The college boys aren’t dictating the politics either place now day, most of the country I knew live in Buckhead now leaving South Georgia for greener glazing. Wonder why
________

Sounds like a rhetorical question. I will leave it alone.

Time to go now.

Everyone have a good day.

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All these tax increases may persuade our most productive citizens to think twice before investing in the economy and will cause an economic slow-down that will affect the very taxpayers the Democrats are trying to help.

I seriously doubt that anybody who’s remotely interested in making money will turn tail and quit investing because of 3%-6% more in taxes. I’d love to see the person who’s gonna turn down millions of dollars in earned income because they may have to pay a little extra in taxes.

Greed always wins.

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ALEX, your post at 11:49 am makes all of my points, regarding you, for me.

I am totally done with you.

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OSCAR

WCCP in Houston…Mississippi’s pi-o-o-oneer 50,000 wat voice! Kinda bizarre it was picking it up in Illinois!

GT
I live in Buckhead, Greener pastures? At the time I moved here, economically, yes. For much of my work, the city was the workshop at the time. Since internet, not so much. I can and will soon go back to my rural roots, my dream home of a tar-paper shotgun with a tin roof on the bayou. Why Buckhead? Central location and a neighborhood where I feel comfortable in the urban environment.

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“Anyone know where I go to pick up my gift?”

Sucker, the Republicans have already gotten them.

They didn’t mind lying about voting for Obama.

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you picked a bad century to be a con.

…and this time, the hurtin’, won’t heal?

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correlation does not imply causation

But unlike Republican faith-based claims, correlation is a necessary step.

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“All these tax increases may persuade our most productive citizens to think twice before investing in the economy”

Even a huge recession didn’t slow that down much. Increased regulation of Wall St. hasn’t led to a collapse of markets. In spite of it all, there’s money to invest and much to be made in this country and a few more points in tax rates, while not even touching loopholes, isn’t going to dampen enthusiasm in investing.

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“…and this time, the hurtin’, won’t heal?”

“you picked a fine time to leave me, Lucille….”

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Brosephus @12:03

Meet James Ross. If he makes millions more, he apparently will have to pay more millions in taxes than the millions he makes.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/04/business/at-102-his-tax-rate-takes-the-cake-common-sense.html?pagewanted=all

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RF, with four hungry Grovers and a Karl in the fields.

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I’d like to starve Mr. Norquist down to the size where *he* could be “drowned in a bathtub.”

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Oscar

November 20th, 2012
11:56 am

And that occurred with a million different ways to hide your income. The basic rule then was invest your money or I’ll confiscate it so we had all kinds of shelters for oil and gas, real estate, etc. So yes the tax rate was higher but only a fool was paying them.

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“RF, with four hungry Grovers and a Karl in the fields”

Them Grovers need to head on over to the Christie household. Looks like they’re still eatin’ really good over there,

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And, JOSEF, I am also totally done with you, because your posts to me have been nothing but personal negatives about me for months. Live with yourself in that regard. And, I have no doubt that you will be able to do so, quite easily.

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Josef

You’re a country boy, that’s why you don’t know shyte about economics LOL

Sorry. You left yourself open for that

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southpaw

Read the entire link…

I was deluged with submissions, including many people who pay a higher rate than I do. But at 102 percent, Mr. Ross was in a category of his own.

That doesn’t mean Mr. Ross pays more in taxes than he earns. His total tax as a percentage of his adjusted gross income was 20 percent, which is much lower than mine.

Now, how many people who work and earn wages as opposed to living off of earned income and such can take advantage of deductions of that magnitude? When you decide that you want to make millions, then you should also want the responsibilities that come with it.

That’s why I don’t begrudge or envy anybody who earns millions. I’m comfortable enough in my 5 figure income life that I don’t need any additional burdens on me. Life doesn’t appear to be fun when you’re spending more time worrying about possibly losing your money as opposed to just living life to the fullest.

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RF — “@Joe 12:13- he’d just raise back up as a zombie and then we’d have real trouble!”

KILL IT

KILLITKILLITKILLIT

KILL IT WITH FIRE

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mary elizabeth

Being here can be a lot like those immature middle schoolers; some are very witty and intelligent but many are ignorant one trick ponies. It’s very easy to read who’s who…

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you know joe, I reviewed what you said yesterday and you points had real merit, I thought and the intial lack of standards from the private investment firms which were then taken up by Fannie mae is true to my reading also. Point I learned and happy to do so. As for my response , I hope you got the sarcasm, I hope that the ME was read to reflect Mary, if not, it does sound as if I am a true jerk which opens up a whole can of worms. No, I do not mind being challenged at all, but i do require and hope that the opinion has at least some basis in fact or can be supported by sonmething other than Fox or Msnbc or drudge or any other of the widely read crap out there. There is most definitely differing opinion as to the culpability of Fannie Mae in the mortgage crisis, but your insight did adjust my perceptions and for that , thanks, but keep the edge,…I’m checking on what you write ,as I would hope that you do for me!…..

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Joe: it’s like that Scylla monster Odysseus had to get past. You cut off one head and two grow back (been teaching that this semester so it came to mind…). Get Grover out of the limelight and there’ll just be another one working his way up from the cesspool. It’s like roaches- the one you see and step on is only one of probably hundreds waiting under the fridge and in the walls…

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