Why the rocket war in Gaza is particularly tragic
War is supposed to be an alternative means of pursuing political change, but the rocket war in Gaza and Israel is something very different. As in any war, people continue to die of course, most of them in Gaza due to the Israelis’ far greater firepower. If a ground invasion of Gaza is launched, those death totals will rise dramatically.
But the hope of political change that is supposed to give war at least a veneer of justification does not exist. Nobody on either side has the slightest belief that anything definitive will emerge from this latest cycle of death and destruction. Israel will have demonstrated once again its immense military advantage and its willingness to use it. Hamas will have added still more names to the list of “martyrs” that it needs to inflame hatred and enhance its standing with the Palestinians and the larger Arab world.
But nothing will be resolved; nothing will change. This is futile war, war conducted solely because neither side has any idea of what other course to take. Both sides recognize that they are trapped in a hellish situation that cannot be sustained, and that also cannot be changed.
This kind of war is ritual human sacrifice to gods who do not listen and do not care.
– Jay Bookman
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378 comments Add your comment
barking frog
November 19th, 2012
11:49 am
Soothsayer
How did the Jews steal Palestine?
getalife
November 19th, 2012
11:50 am
moonbat,
Or move Israel to Florida.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
November 19th, 2012
11:50 am
I would like the Bond which I had from GM to be paid off as it should have been when GM was takine into “bankruptcy” this is actually not a gift as I “loaned” this money( a BOND), but I’ll take whatever I can get…..
Did that bond not come with a prospectus?
Weren’t you warned that investments carry risks?
paulo977
November 19th, 2012
11:51 am
Jay…”et’s take a look at the numbers: Some 90 plus dead in Gaza; three dead in Israel.
_______________________________________________________
What say you Mr Peace Prize Obama?????????????????? !!!!!!!!!!!
barking frog
November 19th, 2012
11:51 am
josef
Does the Israeli government claim the land the settlements are on?
Joe Hussein Mama
November 19th, 2012
11:54 am
Off-topic, but a fascinating read.
Romney was a business genius? Not so fast.
<b<Romney campaign got its IT from Best Buy, Staples, and friends
Imagine you’re launching a company and only have six months to deliver a product. You face a competitor that has been in your industry four years longer than you with twice your staff and twice the budget. If you don’t make your deadline, you’re out of business.
That, in a nutshell, was the situation facing the technology team for Mitt Romney’s presidential campaign. The Obama for America (OFA) organization had the advantage: it didn’t have to wade through the primary season first, allowing OFA’s technology team to focus on building an infrastructure. Based on an Ars analysis of the Romney campaign’s financial reports, Romney’s team had less to work with and passed the lion’s share of technology-focused spending directly to advertising companies and telemarketers. This left Team Romney’s tech squad with only a fraction of the budget for consulting, services, and infrastructure.
So, the campaign did what a lot of small businesses would do: they went to Best Buy. Or more accurately, they went to Best Buy’s subsidiary, MindShift Technologies, a managed service provider that specializes in small and medium business consulting. And when they were in a pinch for tech help, they called Staples’ subsidiary ThriveNetworks and a collection of small consulting firms with links to Romney and the Republican Party.
Apparently, that didn’t work out so well.
Read the whole thing here:
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/11/romney-campaign-got-its-it-from-best-buy-staples-and-friends/
josef
November 19th, 2012
11:55 am
FROG
The “illegal immigrant” Palestinians is a big issue in Israel, and especially vis a vis the gay community. The Jerusalem government is under pressure to grant them exemption on grounds of persecution should they be forced to return home. There’s been an excellent Israeli film, “The Invisible Men” which focuses on this.
USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)
November 19th, 2012
11:55 am
barking – ” Does the Israeli government claim the land the settlements are on?”
YES – they’ve invested in it, fercryingoutloud
http://www.oikoumene.org/en/resources/documents/central-committee/geneva-2009/reports-and-documents/report-on-public-issues/statement-on-israeli-settlements-in-the-occupied-palestinian-territory.html
4. Instead of freezing the settlement activities, work continues on large urban settlement projects and on many smaller projects. The Israeli government is still planning to build some 2,500 new housing units in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Israel’s policies cause new and repeated displacements of Palestinian citizens inside the occupied territory. The demolition of houses that took place in June 2009 in East Jerusalem created untold suffering to the Palestinians. House demolition orders against hundreds of families were delivered by Israeli municipal and military authorities and hundreds of church-owned properties are at risk, especially from the expansion of Israeli-controlled settlements and housing in East Jerusalem. These are only isolated examples of a much larger tragedy.
Soothsayer
November 19th, 2012
11:56 am
frog: how does a shoplifter steal a bottle of liquor? They took something that belonged to someone else and didn’t pay for it.
JamVet
November 19th, 2012
11:57 am
jonix,
You and the rug rats getting some down time this week?
And when do we begin anew the War on Christmas?!
For some reason, there seems to be some backlash in beginning it earlier and earlier.
I remember when “real” (hat tip Towncrier) American hating atheists (grin) used to crank that puppy up around Halloween…
Al
November 19th, 2012
11:57 am
Speaking of Croatian refugees in NW georgia.. Only job he could get, happy to get it and since he worked for peanuts the good old boys where pleased. Of course he made himself indispensable, that helped Didn’t need any blue helmets..
barking frog
November 19th, 2012
11:58 am
USinUK
Then they should stop that.
josef
November 19th, 2012
11:58 am
FROG
That’s one of the questions up in the air. The tactic has been to place the settlements in such a manner as to be “negotiated” in the drawing of borders if/when a two state solution can be reached. This is the real sticking point vis a vis the settlements and Israeli territorial ambitions…
middle of the road
November 19th, 2012
11:58 am
It is all crazy. I don’t like the way Israel was originally constructed. They should have created Israel in GERMANY. But unfortunately, that was then and this is now and we have to find a way forward.
I like Josef’s comments – what if the Cherokee started fighting for their lands in North Georgia (where my house is) and started lobbing rockets at me? Would I say, “you are right – we should not have stolen your land, and put you on the trail of tears and made you go live in reservations, so I will pack up and go somewhere else – probably become homeless in Atlanta, so that you can have your native land back,”
And who did the Palestinians steal the land from, way back in history?
It is what it is and Hamas needs to recognize it and THEN and only then is peace a possibility.
USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)
November 19th, 2012
12:00 pm
barking – 11:58 – which is why that was my #1 post on this issue (and, coinkidentally, the #1 post on this topic)
godless heathen - Support Small Business Saturday
November 19th, 2012
12:00 pm
how does a shoplifter steal a bottle of liquor?
They stuffed it down their pants??
St Simons
November 19th, 2012
12:00 pm
The only remotely possible “solution” is the two-state solution.
Yes, it is. Make it so. Use the neocon doctrine.
barking frog
November 19th, 2012
12:01 pm
Soothsayer
I was under the impression the Israelis and Palestinians and Israelis
fought the British for the land and the British divided the land between
the two. Shoplifting was not charged to either party.
getalife
November 19th, 2012
12:01 pm
“They should have created Israel in GERMANY.”
Or Europe but religion got in the way.
Tom Middleton
November 19th, 2012
12:02 pm
Come to think of it, we could put the Palestinians on reservations like we did the Native Americans here in America. Boy that has worked well with all the poverty, drug addiction and alcoholism, and lack of freedom anyone would need to learn to rise beyond themselves – NOT!
Mr. President, please free Mr. Leonard Peltier, especially since the case they used to convict him has subsequently fallen apart in court. I mean, can you think of a better place to start a world movement way-too-long overdue? Sir, I cannot!
josef
November 19th, 2012
12:03 pm
ZamVet
Yeah, a little bit of time away from them. Spent the first part of the day today though being a capitalist running dog of Zionist international na zi Jew banker imperialism!
FROG
“How did the Jews steal Palestine?”
Same way Sooth’s people stole Georgia…
yuzeyurbrane
November 19th, 2012
12:03 pm
Jay, you are probably right about the futility of it all. Yet, I ask you what is Israel to do when it is bombarded with close to 1000 inaccurate rockets this year alone? We would not stand for it if it were us. Israel’s defense systems and its high organized civil defense measures have limited the number of their civilian casualties as compared to the Palestinians in Gaza. But does that make the terror any less? And is Hamas more pure simply because they have been largely thwarted in their attempts to kill innocent civilians? They make no pretense about seeking military targets. More basic is the question directed to Western civilization: is Jewish blood less valuable than the blood of others? Most would say, no, but unfortunately many anti-Israel ideologues would probably say, yes.
mohammed
November 19th, 2012
12:04 pm
why is israel doing this what does those liltle children have to do with everything you guys are just mad cuz you guys cant tke over palistine how many years have you gus tryin how many millions of people have stood in your faces and then you guys just start shooting them then throwing bombs then nock people doors down kill lillte children like idiots we just wanna live in peace like any body else does palistine all day
barking frog
November 19th, 2012
12:04 pm
USinUK
Well i am glad you have re-examined your position and found it
to be correct as well as Jay’s position but you were more detailed
in explanation. Thanks for the enlightenment.
getalife
November 19th, 2012
12:05 pm
I worked at a liquor store while going to school and did not see any shoplifting.
Of course, I was drunk the whole time so I might have missed it.
Bob
November 19th, 2012
12:05 pm
Jay, I think even if the new Israeli settlements stopped in the West Bank I doubt that Hamas will be any more inclined to stop rockets attacks against Israel. Neither side have been saints but Israel is facing a foe that is militarily inferior but seems to be dedicated to the death of every man, woman, and child that is Jewish and will happily die towards that goal. If I was an Israeli it would be difficult for me to remember that many people in the West Bank and Gaza wish for peace when the news is all about those that wish death for you and your children personally. I feel sorry for those innocents in Gaza but Hamas is bringing the fight to Israel with predictable results.
Joe Hussein Mama
November 19th, 2012
12:06 pm
Mohammed must be pregnant, because he sure skipped a lot of periods.
alex
November 19th, 2012
12:06 pm
Yes, and when a company goes into bankruptcy the Bond holders are “supposed” to be paid off, if building need to be sold off then that should happen,DID IT?—NO! This is a loan, a corporate loan, yes with some risk, but NO effort was made to pay the bond holders, HO!, HO!, HO!
You can also read “Bailout” how the Tresury Dept.eschewed mainstreet. to help wall st.Lots of gifts here, I doubt that you or I have to write thank you letters!
getalife
November 19th, 2012
12:09 pm
alex,
tim wants the debt ceiling to be infinity.
Money rules, you should know this fact by now.
barking frog
November 19th, 2012
12:09 pm
josef
I don’t think Sooth’s people would shoplift. I think they believe they
negotiated a contract.
josef
November 19th, 2012
12:12 pm
FROG
And they’re still pissed that some of ‘em didn’t TRADE for the firewater, just took it!
Mohammad…
Not at all being snarky here, please understand, but are you Palestinian?
Jefferson
November 19th, 2012
12:13 pm
An ant, even though easily killed still stings, and a big hill of them just moves around and stings.
Welcome to the Occupation
November 19th, 2012
12:18 pm
So Turkey’s Erdogan has now called Israel a “terrorist state”.
You really wonder whether we have crossed over some line in a configuration of tectonic plates that cannot be crossed back from. The region has now changed in such fundamental ways, perhaps this latest escalation will move us into waters where we have not been before.
barking frog
November 19th, 2012
12:19 pm
So Cons supports Israel in all that it does.
Libs want free travel and residence for Palestinians throughout Palestine(including Israel)
with borders as drawn by UN/British resolution. Stop the violence and i think the Israelis
would be o.k. with this, the Palestinians not so much.
josef
November 19th, 2012
12:19 pm
ZamVet
And before I forget…it’s Baby Jesus’ birthday, d*mmit!
guy
November 19th, 2012
12:23 pm
Believe it or not, I agree with Jay on this one. You can’t reason with people full of hate It’s so horrific to see.Such a waste! Been that way since time began!
stands for decibels
November 19th, 2012
12:24 pm
Heartbreaking piece by Dahlia…
35 years ago this week, Anwar Sadat addressed the Israeli Knesset in an unprecedented and historic move toward establishing peace between Israel and Egypt. My little brother and I stayed up half the night making an enormous Egyptian flag. We colored it in with pencils and crayons and trekked up to the Knesset with it, where we stood on the sidewalk with throngs of Israelis, waiting for his mortorcade to arrive. Our flag was so huge, we took up three feet of sidewalk.
My indelible memory of that day—in the pale greens and reds of the late ‘70s—is that President Sadat smiled and waved at the two kids with the massive Egyptian flag as he drove past, and then we probably went home for ice cream. Sadat said in his remarks that Israel had a right to exist. We really believed he had made history that day. We had the flag to prove it.
[...]
You want to hear about what it’s like here? It’s ####ing sad. Everyone I know is sad. My kids don’t care who started it and the little boys in Issawiya, the Arab village I see out my window, don’t care much either. I haven’t met a single Israeli who is happy about this. They know this fixes nothing. The one thing we learned this week is how quickly humans can come to normalize anything. But the hopelessness seeps right into your bones as well.
I am worried about our friends here who are being called up. I am worried about my friends here who are war correspondents. I am worried about terrified children in Gaza. I am also worried about how I will explain to my sons why we are staying, but I’m more worried about what I would tell them if we left. I am crazy-worried about my parents who live in the south, where 1400 rockets have been fired since January. I am worried about how this can possibly ever end if just tweeting about peace is an international act of aggression.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
November 19th, 2012
12:25 pm
Yes, and when a company goes into bankruptcy the Bond holders are “supposed” to be paid off, if building need to be sold off then that should happen,DID IT?—NO! This is a loan, a corporate loan, yes with some risk, but NO effort was made to pay the bond holders, HO!, HO!, HO!
In other words, yes — you were warned about the risk.
But you are not taking responsibility for the initial decision you made to purchase this investment vehicle.
barking frog
November 19th, 2012
12:25 pm
josef
speaking of babies, three weeks ago yesterday my son became the
proud father of a 3 month premature baby boy weighed 2 pounds 1/2 oz.
now 2 lbs 10 oz.
godless heathen - Support Small Business Saturday
November 19th, 2012
12:26 pm
Where can I enlist in the War on Christmas? It has already declared war on me.
indigo
November 19th, 2012
12:27 pm
Israel is absolutely convinced Yahweh gave them the land they’re on now. Palestinians are absolutely convinced Allah has given this SAME land to them. You cannot reason with religious fundamentalists and this is why no peaceful solution to the Middle East problem will ever be found.
In America, there are still Amerindians who are convinced The Great Spirit gave them the land we call the US. If their numbers were sufficient, we(non Amerindians) would be in a constant and neverending war over the land we now live on.
As long as humans are humans, some things will never change.
Jackie
November 19th, 2012
12:28 pm
One has to look at what the Israeli public is saying about Netanyahu and Ehud Barak to understand why Israel is taking action against the Palestinians, especially bombing civilian targets.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/netanyahu-s-election-rivals-can-t-help-but-support-gaza-war.premium-1.478197
They BOTH suck
November 19th, 2012
12:28 pm
barking frog
Congrats on the grand baby. Hope mom, dad and the baby are doing well.
josef
November 19th, 2012
12:29 pm
FROG
Sounds like Unmentionable when he was born…early 50s. He wasn’t supposed to have made it, but he did and has been healthy as a horse…got scrawny legs, though!
And tell your boy, mazel tov!
stands for decibels
November 19th, 2012
12:30 pm
bf, that is a BFD. Congrats!
barking frog
November 19th, 2012
12:30 pm
They are all doing fine however as this is my first grandchild i am going to pieces.
getalife
November 19th, 2012
12:31 pm
The IDF called the Palestinians to warn them they are about to be bombed so they can evacuate.
getalife
November 19th, 2012
12:32 pm
Grandfrog,
Congrats.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
November 19th, 2012
12:34 pm
Have the SONS OF CONFEDERATE VETERANS! declared war on xmas?
Common Sense
November 19th, 2012
12:34 pm
“I do NOT think that differential can be explained by the unwillingness of Hamas to kill Israeli civilians. It is explainable only by their inability to wreak greater damage.”
We need a fairer war, where the deaths on both sides are equal, right?
Or, the ones with the most deaths should reconsider what they are doing? But then you are applying western logic to a middle eastern issue.
That should have been more than obvious by now.
barking frog
November 19th, 2012
12:34 pm
getalife
If i were going to be bombed i would probably evacuate or get bombed.
Joe Hussein Mama
November 19th, 2012
12:36 pm
K’Chak — “In other words, yes — you were warned about the risk. But you are not taking responsibility for the initial decision you made to purchase this investment vehicle.”
Sounds to me like someone doesn’t even know what kind of corporate paper he was purchasing.
USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)
November 19th, 2012
12:36 pm
barking – hey! way to go on the grand-tadpole!!
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
November 19th, 2012
12:37 pm
For the frog
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jykzwUvHLe8
larry
November 19th, 2012
12:38 pm
Congrats barking frog
My little girl was born 3 months premature (2lbs, 8 oz) and after some trying times and 2 months in NICU, she is doing great. She is now 6 years old and you can not tell she was premature.
I hope nothing but good health and happiness for your grandchild.
barking frog
November 19th, 2012
12:38 pm
USinUK
Thanks. He is a chip, laying there mostly naked, surrounded by good looking
nurses taking drugs…..
willydoit?
November 19th, 2012
12:39 pm
“Or move Israel to Florida.”
I’ve always said we should move Israel to Mexico…the Mexicans want to be here in America anyway, so we open the border and just be one big AmeriJewican family!
Jackie
November 19th, 2012
12:40 pm
Wonder if Mr. Netanyahu made a “political decision” in his attack on Hamas?
http://www.france24.com/en/20121016-israel-early-election-date-amid-netanyahu-popularity-january-likud-polls-bibi-iran
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
November 19th, 2012
12:41 pm
Joe Hussein Mama
The first thing that was drilled into when I went to the marketplace to invest was, “if you don’t like any risk at all, then this is not the place for you.”
It’s immaterial that bonds are less risky than equities. Every prospectus that I have tried to read was very clear on one thing — this thing could lose your money.
skipper
November 19th, 2012
12:42 pm
Jay,
Even with our alleged peace-loving no collateral-damage attitude, if some po-dunk, second-rate snot-rags (see Hamas) were slinging rockets over ANY border with us, you can bet your a$$ it would have been stopped. The Israelis have showed restraint. There would have BEEN no six-day war and the subsequent loss of territory if those folks (that nobody wanted…yeah the Palestinians) and some of their booger-breath allies had not been attacking Israel for years! I know folks will throw out the Nazis and WWII, Pol Pot, etc. However as of RIGHT NOW, those events notwithstanding, the whole middle east is a cluster…..the next world war will probably be started there………..Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Al-Queda……good God what a bunch of loons! I’ sure (wink-wink) they would be peaceful if the Israeli’s laid down their arms…………..
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
November 19th, 2012
12:42 pm
“But nothing will be resolved; nothing will change. This is futile war, war conducted solely because neither side has any idea of what other course to take. Both sides recognize that they are trapped in a hellish situation that cannot be sustained, and that also cannot be changed.”
Yes ………… this is what happens when you have good vs. evil, terrorism vs. sanity, depotism vs. democracy, crime vs. law, etc., etc., etc.
“NEVER AGAIN” !
P.S.
No need to feel sorry for the bad guys because they take more casualties. They started it.
USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)
November 19th, 2012
12:44 pm
barking –
a boob man from Day 1, huh? 
barking frog
November 19th, 2012
12:45 pm
USinUK
yep.
Bill Campbell
November 19th, 2012
12:46 pm
THERE WILL NEVER BE PEACE! ISRAEL WILL SURVIVE AND DESTROY ALL HER ENEMIES!
JamVet
November 19th, 2012
12:46 pm
froggie, Mazel Tov!
A tad over two pounds?!
How wonderful that modern medicine can keep those mini-munchkins alive, huh?
Best to you and yours!
Jefferson
November 19th, 2012
12:48 pm
Let one side divide the land and then let the other side pick which parcel they want.
Joe Hussein Mama
November 19th, 2012
12:50 pm
K’Chak — “Joe Hussein Mama The first thing that was drilled into when I went to the marketplace to invest was, “if you don’t like any risk at all, then this is not the place for you.”
Absolutely. No argument there.
“It’s immaterial that bonds are less risky than equities. Every prospectus that I have tried to read was very clear on one thing — this thing could lose your money.”
If you’re holding corporate debt (especially *unsecured* corporate debt) and the bankruptcy court tries to zero you out in a cramdown, then just give the eff up and go home, because you’re not getting a freakin’ dime. I wouldn’t *touch* corporate paper myself.
The only way you’d have a hope in hell is if you were holding *secured* debt backed by something like hard assets or collateral, but virtually no *individual* investors would be a position to do that. Even so, the GM bailout was a Ch 11 *reorg* — not an outright liquidation.
Besides, hoodahell was holding GM debt after the fall of 2008 anyway?
barking frog
November 19th, 2012
12:50 pm
JamVet
It truly is amazing. the doctors decided to deliver him when everything
seemed o.k. but their machines said differently and he is wired like a
cyborg but he still grins…
alex
November 19th, 2012
12:50 pm
Boys, Boys, Let’s review :in a bankruptcy, the bondholder should be paid ,if the company has assets. These assets may be factories, etc. GM obviously had/has assets,which should have been sold off to pay off the bond holders first then if anyhting is left the stockholders..Was this done? NO. I am no economist, but that is my understanding of how this bankruptcy should have proceeded. Are there risks any time you LOAN someone money, yes,BUT an attempt should be made to pay off the bond holders, if posible. It was possible, it simply was not done, Merry Christmas.If anyone is a bankruptcy expert(only if you are one, not “think” you are one), please add.
@getalife, yes, yes for repubs and Dems (ask Dodd and Barnie about Fannie Mae), but I don’t have to like it. “to the barricades”…..
Grasshopper
November 19th, 2012
12:54 pm
All those sad words and Jay forgets to mention the rockets being launched from schoolyards and markets in Gaza towards random civilian targets in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv that started this latest round of projectile war.
I’m not surprised.
josef
November 19th, 2012
12:55 pm
The question has been asked, often inartfully indicating the questioners’ bias, around the globe and I have yet ti to find an answer of substance…just what should Bibi do/have done…?
Stevie Ray
November 19th, 2012
12:55 pm
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
November 19th, 2012
12:42 pm
Read the following quote from Thomas Mann in Forbes….
“ War is only a cowardly escape from the problems of peace. ”
I think we get to a point that it is irrelevant who started what…particularly after 60 some odd years plus..until the refugee situation is addressed and these folks are no longer living in poverty arguably caused by Zionists, nothing will change…proposals from Israel to address this issue in pragmatic fashion, regardless of the real estate issue…more robust than in the past..would be a good start.
Meanwhile the Israeli population continues to trend up and up and up…how much is palistinian hatred versus Israels need for more space to accomodate that policy allowing all Jews and relations to same have to do with all of this?
independent thinker
November 19th, 2012
12:56 pm
I assume that the Confederacy did nothing to provoke Sherman’s March to the sea and wanton attacks on civilians and their property including Atlanta?
I also assume that the Germans did nothing to provoke the US and Britain leveling Dresden and killing hundreds of thousands of German civilians?
and I also assume that the Japanese were known for humanely treating conquered countries and US prisoners and did nothing to justify Hhiroshima and Nagasaki where tens of thousands civilians were killed;
and we can assume that not enough Israelis who include descendants of 800,000 refugees kicked out of Arab countries with their property stolen have a real justification for attacking Hamas who has lobbed over 800 missles at Israel this year and who obtained their land free of any settlements from Israel in 2005 with no concessions on Hamas part.
The moral equivalency circulating on this blog is amazing. Must be the aftereffects of Sherman’s march.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
November 19th, 2012
12:57 pm
Boys, Boys, Let’s review
alex, alex, Let’s review: You were initially warned that this investment could lose money. Your assumptions about how this should have been handled are immaterial. You accepted the risk and now you cannot or will not accept responsibility for that decision.
josef
November 19th, 2012
12:58 pm
GRASSHOPPER
Jay has (not on this thread, but earlier) made it clear that he thinks Israeli has the right (and duty) to counter those attacks…
saywhat?
November 19th, 2012
1:00 pm
USinUK-”but … but … but … I thought he was a muslin!”
_____________________________________________
And I thought he was a socialist, like Linen.
MadMax
November 19th, 2012
1:00 pm
paulo977 What say you Mr Peace Prize Obama?????????????????? !!!!!!!!!!!
I think he said, I’m going to Burma and I hope this mess is over by the time I get back (sort of like I’m going to Vegas when the Bengahzi attack occurred). Maybe he said “present” as he boarded Air Force 1
Grasshopper
November 19th, 2012
1:01 pm
JOSEF
Jay, on this thread, makes it clear that he thinks Israel itches to use it’s military power while Hamas simply shudders in the corner and plans televised funerals of babies.
Erwin's cat
November 19th, 2012
1:02 pm
in alex’s defense…the risk he assumed was not the risk he encountered…
Joe Hussein Mama
November 19th, 2012
1:02 pm
alex — “Boys, Boys, Let’s review :in a bankruptcy, the bondholder should be paid ,if the company has assets.”
In a liquidation. This was a reorganization. Courts can and do nasty things to unsecured creditors in reorganization bankruptcies; see the terms cramdown and haircut.
“These assets may be factories, etc. GM obviously had/has assets,which should have been sold off to pay off the bond holders first then if anyhting is left the stockholders..Was this done? NO.”
I believe you’re thinking of a Ch 7 liquidation, whereas GM went through an Ch 11 reorganization. Besides, if you’re holding *unsecured* debt, what claim do you have to hard assets if those assets aren’t being *liquidated?*
alex
November 19th, 2012
1:03 pm
@ Joe, thnaks, how many individuals hold corporate bonds as part of a Bond mutual fund and I guess the next ? would be should GM have been allowed chapert 11 as opposed to be made to pay off the bondholders…Yes, Yes, risk is relative<yes, yes; is Coke stock as risky as a wind farm startup? ….
Risk is relative, of course and secured bonds should be "relatively " risk free as different from the stockholders, but I digress. Really learning something here, again I am no expert, but ths Gift thing goes both ways, ask the administration about AIG, there is a lot to grumble about. Personally I would like a dozen Krispy Kreme donuts as a gift…..
Stevie Ray
November 19th, 2012
1:03 pm
ALEX
You are correct, all creditors (secured, unsecured, as well as stockholders) are subordinated to bondholders who generally are paid in full (or thats the expectation)..exceptions during the negotiation process sometimes can shave some from bondholders but you are correct..
The only difference I know of is with municipalities Chapter 9 filings which in some circumstances, the bondholders are in same boat as unsecured creditors..
willie lynch
November 19th, 2012
1:03 pm
From Reuters : ‘Gaza assault raises anger in changed Arab world’
As I said, the world is changing. The continued same as usual, shortsighted approach of the Israeli government and the unwillingness of America to hold Israel accountable in any measure will continue to fan the flames that will soon ignite the powder keg.
Joe Hussein Mama
November 19th, 2012
1:04 pm
E. Cat — “in alex’s defense…the risk he assumed was not the risk he encountered…”
Actually, I think there are two kinds of *assumptions* going on there.
Alex clearly assumed some risk in his investment, but I think Alex wrongly assumed that he was immune from being zeroed out.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
November 19th, 2012
1:05 pm
…the risk he assumed was not the risk he encountered…
(shrug)
Risk is risk. To assume that the market plays by some “rules” is naïveté of the first order.
Grasshopper
November 19th, 2012
1:05 pm
And JOSEF,
Unless there is some secret Archive of Jay’s posts, he has said nothing of Israel’s rights of defense related to the current fracas. Did he post that in the Twinkie column someplace?
alex
November 19th, 2012
1:05 pm
Who decides chap7 vs chap 11and what are the criteria for the decision…?thanks, pass the donuts….
USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)
November 19th, 2012
1:07 pm
” And I thought he was a socialist, like Linen.”
Joe Hussein Mama
November 19th, 2012
1:08 pm
alex — “@ Joe, thnaks, how many individuals hold corporate bonds as part of a Bond mutual fund”
Don’t know; I prefer equities to bonds. I feel like I need to know minute details about a company before I invest in corporate paper and I’m too lazy to do that.
“and I guess the next ? would be should GM have been allowed chapert 11 as opposed to be made to pay off the bondholders…”
That question I can’t answer. I have no idea how the courts determine that sort of thing, or if they could override a petitioner and say ‘eff no, you’re broke and you’re liquidating.’
“Risk is relative, of course and secured bonds should be “relatively ” risk free as different from the stockholders, but I digress.”
Were you holding *secured* paper? Or unsecured?
“Personally I would like a dozen Krispy Kreme donuts as a gift…..”
alex
November 19th, 2012
1:08 pm
@ Kam: “risk is risk”,,,I’ve read better from you……
Georgia
November 19th, 2012
1:09 pm
I enjoyed reading Jay’s poetically epoch voice-in-the-wilderness meme about the meaning of war. He could have written this during the last GazaGate. (It’s always the presidents fault). He opens with a war chronicle comparing competing collateral damage to tank tracks in Gaza. He was trying to set the tone for his meteroric and metaphoric close. Paraphrasing Jay: “Electrically they keep a baseball score and then the beat goes on. Oh, the futility of The Groundhog Day War. Israel knows it. Hamas knows it. The American people know it.” Jay sees Israel and Hamas as ceremonial reenactors of the last Gaza bloodletting. Paraphrasing Jay again: “The lady holding the scales of justice cant see the morality of her justice. Morality of war? Justice is comensurate retaliation? Why or how can this be? Oh, the poetry that’s available here. It writes itself”. (Oh brother)
Groundhog Day War. The ditto war? Wrong. This time it is different. This time Egyptian sectarian support is on the table. That has revealed vast sectarian support to Hamas’ cause that stretches all the way to China, man. Egypt tapped Hamas on the shoulder and cut in, and found it liked dancing with Israel. Now there’s a chorus line waiting their turn. Is this the first real breach of the Camp David Peace Agreement brokered by Carter? Is there anything Obama can do? Is it GazaGate? No. but as support for Hamas trends, then Hamas will try to legislate from the battlefield, which is what Patraeus was trying to do in Benghazi, and what Macarthur wanted to do in Korea. (and when are Americans going to learn that our commander in chief necessarily must be a civilian)? We don’t legislate from the battlefield.
RF
November 19th, 2012
1:11 pm
So here’s a question:
Suppose the U.S. decides Israel is wrong and tells them so. Would it change anything in the ongoing battle? Seems to me no matter what our government does, it isn’t really going to change anything. What advantage is there for us either way?
Stevie Ray
November 19th, 2012
1:12 pm
willie lynch
November 19th, 2012
1:03 pm
Yup, and the arab world that surrounds Israel is more equipped to push the Israeli’s into the sea…
Israel is the only one in position to fix this..if they don’t address refugee/poverty issue with integrity, nothing will change except those sick and tired of getting kicked around by Zionists, will light the powder keg…we are closer than ever..
getalife
November 19th, 2012
1:14 pm
“ask Dodd and Barnie about Fannie Mae”
Deflecterbation.
Most of congress voting for gse’s alex.
Stevie Ray
November 19th, 2012
1:15 pm
RF
November 19th, 2012
1:11 pm
Good question..if we continue to enable the Zionists to continue on same track, nothing will change. I think if we went to them and said no more money or weapons….you are on your own, the winds may shift…if not they will get the fight nobody wants
Get Real
November 19th, 2012
1:15 pm
War in the Middle East will never go away, folks have been killing each other for thousands of years and there is nothing we will ever be able to do to change it. I think it is very sad but at the same time I am not kidding myself into thinking it can change. I realize this is a negative viewpoint but unfortunately I believe it is spot on…wish it was not the case…
alex
November 19th, 2012
1:15 pm
@ Joe I’m a Boglehead and too lazy to invest in individual stocks or bonds and have read” A random walk down Wall st.” and whole thing is rigged in my mind.Index funds are my world and fortunately am back to the same financial position I was in in 2007…….
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
November 19th, 2012
1:16 pm
I believe you’re thinking of a Ch 7 liquidation, whereas GM went through an Ch 11 reorganization. Besides, if you’re holding *unsecured* debt, what claim do you have to hard assets if those assets aren’t being *liquidated?*
I begin to see now.
It’s not about investment, it’s about ideology.
josef
November 19th, 2012
1:22 pm
GRASSHOPPER
@ 1:05
Here ya go…
**************************
Jay
November 15th, 2012
3:58 pm
“For what it’s worth, I have no trouble whatsoever with Israel taking out the Hamas commander in retaliation for rocket strikes. Good move. But there is such a thing as overreaction ….”
alex
November 19th, 2012
1:23 pm
@geta, yes but these 2 characters were very influencial in getting Fannie to buy up the mortgages for the Countrywides of the world. Did not Dodd get a sweatheart loan from countrywide for his effortss. Good Barnie had no problem with asking Fannie for a job for his partner. I am not about to blame any one group, that would be foolish and one sided. But htese guys should be at or close to the top of a list of financial goons and blowhards. Add in Clinton, Bush,the Maestro and on andon..