Why the rocket war in Gaza is particularly tragic

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War is supposed to be an alternative means of pursuing political change, but the rocket war in Gaza and Israel is something very different. As in any war, people continue to die of course, most of them in Gaza due to the Israelis’ far greater firepower. If a ground invasion of Gaza is launched, those death totals will rise dramatically.

But the hope of political change that is supposed to give war at least a veneer of justification does not exist. Nobody on either side has the slightest belief that anything definitive will emerge from this latest cycle of death and destruction. Israel will have demonstrated once again its immense military advantage and its willingness to use it. Hamas will have added still more names to the list of “martyrs” that it needs to inflame hatred and enhance its standing with the Palestinians and the larger Arab world.

But nothing will be resolved; nothing will change. This is futile war, war conducted solely because neither side has any idea of what other course to take. Both sides recognize that they are trapped in a hellish situation that cannot be sustained, and that also cannot be changed.

This kind of war is ritual human sacrifice to gods who do not listen and do not care.

– Jay Bookman

378 comments Add your comment

USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)

November 19th, 2012
9:06 am

“This is futile war, war conducted solely because neither side has any idea of what other course to take”

well, Israel actually living by its agreements re: settlements would be a nice start.

Keep Up the Good Fight!

November 19th, 2012
9:06 am

This kind of war is ritual human sacrifice to gods who do not listen and do not care.

Well said. Wars in the name of “our god” are simply a sorry excuse for idiotic “interpretations and justifications”

Welcome to the Occupation

November 19th, 2012
9:06 am

The silence of this president on the terrorizing of Gazans is absolutely disgusting. Barack Obama’s true colors come out – for anyone who still had any doubts. What a fraud. A Likudnik/Netanyahu puppet is basically what he is, just like his vice president.

Pathetic.

Finn de Siècle (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)

November 19th, 2012
9:10 am

Invest in weapon system suppliers? There will always be somebody going to hate on someone else.

King of Planet Kolob

November 19th, 2012
9:11 am

This kind of war is “BP needs to make extra cash to pay it’s fines.” At the end of it all someone will come out ahead and it most likely will not be the 2 who are fighting.

Michael

November 19th, 2012
9:11 am

WOC, you must be a teenager as this has been going on for over 50 years. I agree with you Jay and it is sad as neither side can look in the mirror. And Obama is no puppet to Netanyahu even though the far right Chritians would like him to be.

Welcome to the Occupation

November 19th, 2012
9:12 am

Remember back when US presidents at least felt constrained to pretend to be taking an objective, neutral position in this conflict?

I think George W. Bush’s team would have done a little better in at least forcing themselves to pay lip service to the humanity of the helpless people in the Gaza open-air prison than Barack Obama.

What is shows is yet again just how far to the right the entire US political spectrum has lurched in recent years.

Mick

November 19th, 2012
9:12 am

It’s a lose/lose for both sides. You have to wonder why the palestinians continue to provoke israel into these responses whereby innocents and children get maimed or killed?

independent thinker

November 19th, 2012
9:14 am

Anyone concerned about what is really behind the battle between Hamas and Israel should read
http://www.debka.com/article/22541/Iranian-arms-ship-carries-fresh-improved-Fajar-supplies-for-Gaza
Jay is wrong that Israel is using “far greater firepower” to target civilians since long range Iranian rockets are being smuggled into Gaza through Sinai and Iran controls Hamas. These rockets if launched from Gaza can wipe out the major population centers of Israel. I assume Jay would prefer Israel just sit back and take 600 rockets this year as a mere nuisance and not use its military power to defend its citizens.

What should be concerning the US is that there are over 1000 peace keeping US troops in the Sinai which is becoming a haven of terrorists who will aso use Iranian rockets to fire on Israel. Of course that would take some in depth reporting . Republicans should just keep pushing that line that the Black man in the White House better clean up another mess George “Neville Chamberlain” Bush created in Gaza. No different that London bombing after Chamberlain tried appeasement. Bush predicted that forcing Israel to turn over Gaza and kick out Israeli settlements would lead to a binding peace. Someone from England made the same speech in the 1930s after agreeing to give Hitler another country as appeasment.
You also see no reporting about how Israel continues to supply electricity, water and fuel to Gaza. I guess they should give them military arms and planes too so they have equal firepower.

Sagegirl

November 19th, 2012
9:14 am

When I was a little girl, I remember seeing the ravage of wars in the Middle East, the images on our black and white tv. Today those wars are still being fought. I am 55 now and nothing has changed. It has gone on my entire life and will go on forever. Time will not stop it.

Matti

November 19th, 2012
9:17 am

Senseless and heartbreaking.

I hate to think that our nation has any part in supporting this kind of senseless destruction.

USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)

November 19th, 2012
9:17 am

“Barack Obama’s true colors come out – for anyone who still had any doubts. What a fraud. A Likudnik/Netanyahu puppet is basically what he is, just like his vice president. ”

:lol:

but … but … but … I thought he was a muslin!

Welcome to the Occupation

November 19th, 2012
9:18 am

Michael: “WOC, you must be a teenager as this has been going on for over 50 years”

It’s been going on for a lot longer than just 50 yrs. \

Obama, like his VP, would not DARE even give the slightest hint of a defense of the Gazans for fear of being tarred as “soft” on Israel.

So, yes, Barack Obama is therefore in effect a puppet of Netanyahu and the right wing government of Israel, which includes the majority of the people there, too, as 90% support what he’s doing.

USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)

November 19th, 2012
9:18 am

“I hate to think that our nation has any part in supporting this kind of senseless destruction”

criticism of Israel – the new 3rd rail.

Finn de Siècle (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)

November 19th, 2012
9:19 am

After successfully getting the state to recount the votes in St. Lucie County in Florida, Allen West is now losing by an even wider margin than before – but he still won’t concede.

salon.com

What an idiot!

Thomas Heyward Jr.

November 19th, 2012
9:20 am

“But nothing will be resolved; nothing will change.”
.
Change will come.
It always does.
.
But don’t look towards the Pro-War, Pro-Drone, Pro-Assassination Democratic Party for any positive change.
You’ve been co-opted by Bill Krystal.
.
lol

Sean

November 19th, 2012
9:21 am

I wonder if Syria needed a distraction, so they got Hamas to throw few stones at Israel. Now the spot light is not on Syria.

Jay

November 19th, 2012
9:22 am

Independent, any claim that Israel does not possess an overwhelming firepower advantage is nonsense.

Let’s take a look at the numbers: Some 90 plus dead in Gaza; three dead in Israel.

I do NOT think that differential can be explained by the unwillingness of Hamas to kill Israeli civilians. It is explainable only by their inability to wreak greater damage.

Finn de Siècle (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)

November 19th, 2012
9:22 am

It’s been going on for a lot longer than just 50 yrs.

Ok, 65 years. State of Israel was established in 1947.

indigo

November 19th, 2012
9:23 am

If Hamas, the PLO, the Arab countries and Iran would simply agree to live in peace with Israel, this carnage would end. But, they won’t. Their goal from day one was, and still is, the complete destruction of Israel. So, Israel is surounded with hostile and bitter enemies hell bent on her total destruction.

Jay, you say Israel has no idea “what other course to take”. When surrounding countries and entities are doing their best to kill you, options are limited. Maybe if their Arab neighbors would stop trying to kill Israel, a peaceful course would emerge.

Joe Hussein Mama

November 19th, 2012
9:25 am

I expect that peace will never come until some sort of Multinational Force and Observer mission, akin to the one in the Sinai (or perhaps an extension of it), is developed and deployed in the borderlands and disputed territories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_Force_and_Observers

I just don’t think that the Israelis and the Palestinians can work this out on their own. :(

USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)

November 19th, 2012
9:26 am

ByteMe - Got ilk?

November 19th, 2012
9:27 am

I’m thinking this was all just a ruse to test the Iron Dome defense system, which has shot down about a third of the rockets that Hamas has attempted to launch at Israel. And also to test Iran’s medium-range missles against it.

The human targets are merely pawns.

Granny Godzilla - Union Thugette

November 19th, 2012
9:28 am

Which is it today with our rightie contingent?

Obama hates Israel or Obama is BiBi’s puppet?

Hard to keep the opinions straight they move so often.

“This kind of war is ritual human sacrifice to gods who do not listen and do not care.”

Amen.

Jay

November 19th, 2012
9:28 am

“Maybe if their Arab neighbors would stop trying to kill Israel, a peaceful course would emerge.

Absolutely true, Indigo.

It would also be helpful if Israel stopped building settlements on land that isn’t theirs.

dee

November 19th, 2012
9:28 am

Hamas not only wants Israel to disappear and all Jews dead, they want to draw the attention and ire of the world toward Israel no matter the cost in their own people’s lives. It’s a horrible/deadly PR move and act of war to launch hundreds of rockets into Israel knowing what the result would be. Because of the Arab Spring, this juncture is crucial. They want the new governments of the Arab world to rise together against Israel (and the U.S.) at least politically. They are testing the waters. They are killing people on both sides.

alex

November 19th, 2012
9:29 am

Mick, perhaps their goal is to widen the war and hope that the other Arabs will join them and put Israel in a distinct military disadvantage.

@independent thinker: Hamas has exactly how many drones or F-15 jets, Come on man, yes they have rockets but Israel with the U.S. backing has tremendous “firepower”, Can’t remember the last time I saw a Hamas Tank……..

Netanyahu is prone to violence and Hamas is addicted to it, I don’t know if our President could be effective with either one of these “players”

ByteMe - Got ilk?

November 19th, 2012
9:30 am

Hamas is trying to set terms for cease fire.

Seriously? Pick a fight, lose the fight badly, then try to set terms to end the fight?

Jefferson

November 19th, 2012
9:32 am

If you go around picking fights, sooner or later you will lose some skin.

Mitt Romney

November 19th, 2012
9:33 am

Obama is no friend of Israel and he probably wanted the Israelis to kill civilians so he could blame Israel. I learned all this when I had that funraiser in Israel . Obama went to Sderot where rockets fall every day to pretned he really cares about Israilis being killed. Things were perfect when Bush and his neocons got Israel to pull out of Gaza::
“”"”"”"”"”Bush Sees Gaza Withdrawal as Key to Israeli Security
President optimistic about emergence of a peaceful Palestinian state
Israel’s disengagement from Gaza is a key to the future security of Israel and will create an opportunity for the Palestinians to begin laying the foundations of a peaceful, democratic state, according to President Bush.

Under the plan, Israel will remove settlers and military installations from the Gaza strip and four villages in the northern West Bank between August 15 and 17 in what will be the first ever withdrawal of permanent Israeli settlements from the Palestinian territories.

In an interview with Israeli television August 11, Bush hailed Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s decision to move ahead with the disengagement as a bold and promising departure from the past.

“[T]he previous system wasn’t working. I mean, there was an intifada, there was death, there was killing. And if you notice, there’s been a calm in attacks. One attack is too many, but there’s been fewer attacks. And I think in the long run, two states living side-by-side in peace is the ultimate solution for Israeli’s security,” Bush said.

Bush expressed confidence in Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas’ understanding of what must be done in order to carry the Palestinians forward to statehood. “He knows that a democracy can’t exist so long as you’ve got armed groups willing to take law in their own hands. And he’s committed to a democratic state,” he said.

The president stressed that all parties have obligations in the context of the Gaza withdrawal: Israel to ensure a peaceful withdrawal, the Palestinians to maintain control over terrorist groups, and the Arab states to provide political and financial support to the Palestinians as they work to build the basis of a peaceful, prosperous state in Gaza.

Regarding the Palestinians’ obligation to fight terrorism, he noted that dismantling terrorist organizations is a process that cannot simply be achieved by disarming and isolating terrorists. He said it is necessary to provide hope to the Palestinians and the Israelis that a peaceful, democratic state can emerge. “””””””””””””””””
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/EF27AF0FCCDF47738525705E004D382B

Now there was true leadership.Bush even forced Palestinian elections so they could freely elect Hamas- a real accompolishment. Obama has screwed it all up by giving gifts of the Iron Dome system to Israel to repel the rockets. No good comes from giving free stuff to anyone..

USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)

November 19th, 2012
9:34 am

“Hamas not only wants Israel to disappear and all Jews dead, they want to draw the attention and ire of the world toward Israel no matter the cost in their own people’s lives”

no matter the cost in their own people’s lives???

I suggest you look at how Israel is treating the Palestinians. They have ghettoized them – no more, no less. They are treating Palestinians exactly as the Venetians and Germans and Russians have

Corbin Sharpe. I think, therefore I am...I think.

November 19th, 2012
9:34 am

“Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent”

Isaac Asimov, Salvor Hardin in “Foundation”

Says it all, as far as I’m concerned…

Matti

November 19th, 2012
9:34 am

USinUK,

I had to look up “3rd rail” for context. Sadly, my congressman is one who accepts family vacations to Israel on their dime, and panders to the pro-rapture base by insisting we must stand by them. (Although he’s been less vocal about it this week. Hmmm…) Clearly, no one involed in that mess is interested in our opinion; as such, I think there are better uses for our money.

larry

November 19th, 2012
9:35 am

The question i have is why now? If the latest round of bombings started months ago, why has Netanyahu waited until now to retaliate?

Is there an election coming up?

RF

November 19th, 2012
9:35 am

“criticism of Israel – the new 3rd rail.”

And therein lies a real problem for helping get any kind of sustainable solution in place. At some point, we have to be able to criticize both sides if this is ever going to be solved. Israel seems to count on the unmitigated support of the U.S., and sooner or later that’s going to be a problem for us.

USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)

November 19th, 2012
9:36 am

“Netanyahu is prone to violence and Hamas is addicted to it,”

well said.

“I don’t know if our President could be effective with either one of these “players””

I don’t think that the US will ever be seen as honest brokers in the region -

Stevie Ray

November 19th, 2012
9:37 am

JAY

I’m not sure if it’s a testiment to Israeli missle shield or not but Hamas has fired over 800 missles into Israel with deaths limited to 3…if nothing else, the Hamas is utterly overmatched…

I believe 50 years of evidence confirms the Zionist experiment has failed…we need stop enabling them to continue killing…inasmuch we are condoning such with weapons, planes and cash…

The Israelis got greedy with the land…the Palestinians have gotten screwed from the get go…

USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)

November 19th, 2012
9:39 am

“I had to look up “3rd rail” for context”

wow. I feel old :-(

“panders to the pro-rapture base ”

I’ll never understand the religious right wing – they don’t like Jews but love them some Israel.

skipper

November 19th, 2012
9:40 am

“Martyrs”…..in mid-east language a facade where a bunch of loonies blow themselves up, kill others for the hell of it, etc. If Israel had been left alone to start with, there would not be settlement, etc. of territories taken in the six-day war. There is no peaceful solution, and now Egypt has elected a card-totin’ member of a terrorist organization. Screw 90% of the Arab world….what once was the “Cradle of Civilization” is now the cesspool of the world!

Stevie Ray

November 19th, 2012
9:41 am

USNUK

Couldn’t agree more that we are, and will never be trusted..indeed that distrust has been spilling over east for years as well..cancerous really..

ByteMe - Got ilk?

November 19th, 2012
9:42 am

Is there an election coming up?

Yep, early next year.

RF

November 19th, 2012
9:44 am

“I’ll never understand the religious right wing – they don’t like Jews but love them some Israel.”

Guess maybe they were hoping they’d all pack up and move there one day…

Matti

November 19th, 2012
9:44 am

USinUK,

I think you’re probably more familiar with the metaphor because you live where people actually avail themselves of the amazing practicality of trains. I still live in the land of “pc” defiance, where nothing is too offensive for our reps to support.

East Lake Ira

November 19th, 2012
9:46 am

Not for nothing but there are extremeists on both sides here – no one’s hands are clean…

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?ID=292466&R

“There is no middle path here – either the Gazans and their infrastructure are made to pay the price, or we reoccupy the entire Gaza Strip. Otherwise there will be no decisive victory. And we’re running out of time – we must achieve victory quickly. The Netanyahu government is on a short international leash. Soon the pressure will start – and a million civilians can’t live under fire for long. This needs to end quickly – with a bang, not a whimper.”

Stevie Ray

November 19th, 2012
9:47 am

SKIPPER

Disagree…the concept of suicide bombers came about from the fact that the Palestinians had no other effective weapons….

Don’t you find it of interest that our best friend in that region has no oil? Not sure what exactly are our other interests and why we see it is our job to deal with Iran, Israel, Syria, and the like…waste of cash, life, and other resources. The Zionists have kept the Palestinians down and in abject poverty for 60 years now…should this really continue?

alex

November 19th, 2012
9:47 am

@ Corbin, the main theme of the Foundation Trilogy is that stagnation leads to decline and destruction, this situation most definitely reflects that.

USin UK, Yea you are probably right, who could be an honest broker that both sides would respect?

@ Stevei, the Afgans have been utterly overmatched by Alexander the Great, the Russians, the Brits and the USA—NEXT!

RF

November 19th, 2012
9:50 am

Matti: I never cease to be amazed at how much resistance there is to rail service in Georgia. We’ve got tracks and clearly enough people to justify it, but we never seem to be able to get anything useful planned. They start arguing over who will foot the bill for stations, etc. and the whole thing falls apart. I think there’s still a lot of “if we make it easier to get out, then all them black folks will move out to our safe enclaves” thinking in this state. Ironically, the counties that most vehemently denied Marta in the early 70’s (Gwinnett and Clayton to be precise) have certainly not been able to avoid population diversity…

Soothsayer

November 19th, 2012
9:51 am

Nero

November 19th, 2012
9:51 am

Let them kill each other off. We are drowning in debt and deficits, yet we still gravitate toward this self-perpetuating circus sideshow. Pay attention to the Cliff!! Sequestration is the way to go. Worry about our own problems. Stop wringing your hands over two ungrateful pissants who’d just assume kill Americans if they thought it would further their own agendas. Oh wait….they already have.

independent thinker

November 19th, 2012
9:52 am

Jay – here is a good example of overwhelming firepower killing innocent civilians for no reason:
“”"”"”"”"”In 1941 Charles Portal of the British Air Staff advocated that entire cities and towns should be bombed. Portal claimed that this would quickly bring about the collapse of civilian morale in Germany. Air Marshall Arthur Harris agreed and when he became head of RAF Bomber Command in February 1942, he introduced a policy of area bombing (known in Germany as terror bombing) where entire cities and towns were targeted.

One tactic used by the Royal Air Force and the United States Army Air Force was the creation offirestorms. This was achieved by dropping incendiary bombs, filled with highly combustible chemicals such as magnesium, phosphorus or petroleum jelly (napalm), in clusters over a specific target. After the area caught fire, the air above the bombed area, become extremely hot and rose rapidly. Cold air then rushed in at ground level from the outside and people were sucked into the fire.

In 1945, Arthur Harris decided to create a firestorm in the medieval city of Dresden. He considered it a good target as it had not been attacked during the war and was virtually undefended by anti-aircraft guns. The population of the city was now far greater than the normal 650,000 due to the large numbers of refugees fleeing from the advancing Red Army.

On the 13th February 1945, 773 Avro Lancasters bombed Dresden. During the next two days the USAAF sent over 527 heavy bombers to follow up the RAF attack. Dresden was nearly totally destroyed. As a result of the firestorm it was afterwards impossible to count the number of victims. Recent research suggest that 35,000 were killed but some German sources have argued that it was over 100,000.
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWdresden.htm
Bad Americans and British who had no provocation for their senseless acts. Right?

Joe Hussein Mama

November 19th, 2012
9:52 am

S. Ray — “Don’t you find it of interest that our best friend in that region has no oil?”

I have read that during the Cold War, the Soviets looked upon that as both an inexplicable enigma and as a huge source of laughs. From what I’ve read, they couldn’t understand why we didn’t just ditch Israel and lash up with every oil-producing Middle Eastern and Maghreb nation that would let us in the front door.

Welcome to the Occupation

November 19th, 2012
9:52 am

Mick: “You have to wonder why the palestinians continue to provoke israel into these responses whereby innocents and children get maimed or killed?”

If you lived in the equivalent of a giant open-air prison with no ability to secure a decent life for yourself, don’t you think you might tend to be a little more provocative?

stands for decibels

November 19th, 2012
9:55 am

I’ll never understand the religious right wing – they don’t like Jews but love them some Israel.

Really? I don’t think it’s very complicated–there are generations, now, of right wing American “Christians” who’ve accepted a weird End-Timey biblical narrative, where real-McCoy Super-Jewy-Jews have to be in charge of Jerusalem so Teh Christ can come back and throw the unsaved (presumably the vast majority of Jews, included) into a fiery pit.

I guess I can see why some Likudnik types might cynically accept this sort of “support” from this sort of “Christian”, but it’s just as bleedin’ obvious as to why so many American Jews don’t.

Corbin Sharpe. I think, therefore I am...I think.

November 19th, 2012
9:57 am

Alex@0947….

I agree wholeheartedly…

Stevie Ray

November 19th, 2012
9:57 am

East Lake Ira

November 19th, 2012
9:46 am

I read that link…disgusting really…”let’s wipe them out..” mentality…speaks volumes..the Israelis will keep pushing and pushing until all the Arabs and Persians get similarly armed and try again to push Israel into the sea..

ALEX

Every country that has the means to broker that deal has failed…why should we expect anty difference…the result will be the same..cease fire for a period followed by more killing.

Seems to me that when both sides are targeting children and other innocents, it will be another few generations before anything remotely resembling assimilation is possible..

JamVet

November 19th, 2012
9:58 am

My mom asked me about this yesterday, and my reply?

After fifteen (only being slightly facetious) “wars” there, I am beyond sick of it.

The innocents always pay the price and the war mongers always make their millions.

Same as it ever was…

Matti

November 19th, 2012
9:58 am

RF,

I know what you mean. At least the PINK PIG is back! (Although it’s a Lenox now…) Haha!

Jay

November 19th, 2012
9:58 am

So Independent, if that’s now your position, why your earlier claim that Israel didn’t have a big advantage in the first place?

RF

November 19th, 2012
10:01 am

From the Jersualem Post op/ed. East Lake posted above:

“We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too.”

Well, there’s a nice summary of what evidently some in Israel see as the goal here…I like the WWII references to the U.S. there also- twice in the op/ed. piece we’re brought up as an example. Nice way to justify flattening Gaza I suppose.

Stevie Ray

November 19th, 2012
10:01 am

Alex

Agree on Afghanistan….when all is said and done, we will have accomplished zero from our investment of lives and cash into that country….the Taliban will come back and control the culture….it seems to me it’s also just a matter of time before a civil war breaks out in Iraq…which Hussein was simply putting on hold…similar to Yugoslavia…

USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)

November 19th, 2012
10:01 am

“I think you’re probably more familiar with the metaphor because you live where people actually avail themselves of the amazing practicality of trains.”

social security is the third rail of american politics – Tip O’Neill coined that phrase and I am, sadly, old enough to remember what an amazing Speaker he was

Welcome to the Occupation

November 19th, 2012
10:04 am

It’s true that over the period of the 2nd intifada there were numerous casualties on the Israeli side. But since that time, over the past decade the figures are simply lopsided, with casualties during the single operation in 2008 alone leaving over 1400 dead Palestinians. If I’m not mistaken there have not even been 100 Israeli casualties this decade. So altogether, I think the numbers are something like 1800 Palestinians (mostly women and children) to a couple of dozen Israelis (mostly military).

RF

November 19th, 2012
10:04 am

“At least the PINK PIG is back! ”

Matti, it’s never been the same since it left the bridge over Forsyth St. at the original Rich’s store. My dad worked there as an electrician and I used to get to go with him sometimes when he was doing final checks on wiring and such for the pig and the tree. He hasn’t been back in a store since they changed the name to Macy’s!

Stevie Ray

November 19th, 2012
10:05 am

JOE

And the laughter continues…except other countries such as China are now laughing more loudly…bring all of our troops and cash home and let UN sort it out…if that is possible…

Of course the domestic and overseas Jewish money that flows equally thru Congress will be difficult to overcome..

nelson

November 19th, 2012
10:05 am

Let us look at it this way. If Bermuda was lobbing rocket shells into Atlanta would you not want to retaliate? If Cuba was sending rockets into Miami would you not want to retaliate. Hamas is attempting to destroy the Israeli homeland.
On a lighter side, I met a female army officer, she said she was in logistics. Then she said that she had 50 men under her. I said that was good. I assumed she was alluding to, under her command. She was a truly healthy appearing officer.

Soothsayer

November 19th, 2012
10:06 am

stands for decibels

November 19th, 2012
10:06 am

the war mongers always make their millions trillions

Hadda fix that typo, for the benefit of our Very Serious Debt/Deficit hawks here.

USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)

November 19th, 2012
10:07 am

Independent – 9:52 – um. what exactly is your point with Dresden?

alex

November 19th, 2012
10:08 am

@ RF and Matti, this city is so different from 1970,your arguement about racism is just that racist. Why we don’t use rail-I have no idea, stupidity probably trumps Race in this one. Took Marta to the GT game, perfect. Have taken many trains in europe-marvelous. I would love to have rail options as driving in this town is hideous. As for the Pink Pig, I miss the REAL one on the roof at downtown Rich’s , NOW those were the days……

@corbin I reread the trilogy a few years ago ,, about 30 years after reading it for a poly Sci class at Emory, Better the second time around…

larry

November 19th, 2012
10:08 am

So when there is an election coming up, start a war…………….

Talk about wagging the dog………

or is it wagging the tail. I get those messed up.

GT

November 19th, 2012
10:10 am

One of the reasons Jesus came to earth, I am told, is to get the full experience of being human. Seems people today want to skip that initiation to the human race and lead something they don’t have a feel for. I have come to the conclusion these politician we see lying so much don’t really know they are lying, they just don’t have a clue what the real world is going through, this world they want to lead so bad. They like these Rolex preachers have a calling, or that is what they think. Seems to me if God decided his son needed a little practical training among the multitudes these people that hear that calling would find starting at the top a little too convenient.

Joe Hussein Mama

November 19th, 2012
10:11 am

S. Ray — “….it seems to me it’s also just a matter of time before a civil war breaks out in Iraq…which Hussein was simply putting on hold…similar to Yugoslavia…”

We are in agreement on that point. The various peoples of Iraq don’t have much in common, including their interests. A peaceful separation or confederation would be preferable, but I don’t that’s what’s going to happen.

Uncle Stonewall

November 19th, 2012
10:11 am

ANOTHER UNFORESEEN TRAGEDY OF THE ROCKET WAR:
It gives namby-pamby Jay Bookman something else to whine about to the rest of us. Go find a clearing in the woods with a bunch of other wussy guys and beat on a drum and hug each other. The Middle East? Violence?! Militant Muslims who want to kill the rest of us? That is a SHOCK.

alex

November 19th, 2012
10:12 am

@RF, man I would have loved to be with your dad in those days…..

@Stevei Ray, Croats and serbs have hated each other for 100’s of years, and while I lost an Uncle to the Tito regime in 1945, he was able to keep a lid on it, but yes I very much agree with your Sadam and tito analogy. My father reflected on that several years ago.

Peter

November 19th, 2012
10:13 am

Obviously the only good war is the war Republican’s like. Invade for oil……. All the rest can be considered a waste of time and energy.

Not Blind

November 19th, 2012
10:15 am

Hamas will always take the easy route to staying in power. Actually governing, putting the peoples’ welfare first, working towards economic sustainability, yada yada yada is extremely hard work requiring many painful compromises along the way.

On the other hand, living off foreign aid, brainwashing your young in militarized school curricula, butting heads instead of compromising, and perpetuating war to deflect the peoples’ gaze from the failed leadership is a very simple way to stay in power. Leadership like this would just as soon shoot a moderate muslim as a moderate jew.

Mick

November 19th, 2012
10:16 am

welcome

The cycle of death is not a solution; I’ve been to palestine and I wholeheartedly agree that they have been mistreated. However, more than half the israelis are sympathetic to their plight and firing rockets into israel is not a winning strategy. Since the killing on each side has accomplished nothing, where is the palestinian equivalent of ghandi? Stop the senseless killing and force israel to respect palestinian territory demands…

USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)

November 19th, 2012
10:16 am

totally off topic … but great music … mad amazing skillz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd3TlkitmAk

Joe Hussein Mama

November 19th, 2012
10:17 am

U. Stonewall — “It gives namby-pamby Jay Bookman something else to whine about to the rest of us.”

If you don’t like it, there are plenty of other blogs to read. Or start your own.

“Go find a clearing in the woods with a bunch of other wussy guys and beat on a drum and hug each other.”

With a name like “Uncle Stonewall,” that reference to “wussy guys” hugging on each other takes on a whole new meaning that I don’t think you intended. (giggling) :D

“The Middle East? Violence?! Militant Muslims who want to kill the rest of us? That is a SHOCK.”

So what’s your solution? Wait — let me guess. Nuke ‘em till they glow? Bomb the Palestinian territories, pave them, paint lines on them and turn them into a parking lot?

joe

November 19th, 2012
10:20 am

If Hamas would stop shelling Israel, there wouldn’t be anything to this. Israel has every right to defend itself. The terrorists are to blame here. Any attempt to say otherwise is just standard liberal talking points.

Here’s a thought for you libs. You shouldn’t be supporting in any form or fashion, terrorists who would like nothing more than to apply their sharia laws on you to take away your freedoms and open lifestyle. If you are gay, they will kill you. If you are an adulterer, they will kill you by stoning. If you steal, they will cut your hands off…just sayin.

barking frog

November 19th, 2012
10:21 am

If settlements cause the conflict why don’t Palestinians attack the settlements ?
Is the Israeli government building the settlements ? Does the Israeli government
claim soverignty over the settlement land ? Palestinians refused to accept the
UN/British partition not the Israelis. The UN is all over the place, why not Gaza?

JamVet

November 19th, 2012
10:22 am

Uncle Meatwall’s chest pounding is kinda cute.

(As he talks real loud from the back of the crowd…)

Stevie Ray

November 19th, 2012
10:23 am

alex

November 19th, 2012
10:12 am

Yet I want to recall that the croates and serbs were living peacefully amongst each other…neigbors, sharing schools and the like..am I misunderstanding this?

Soothsayer

November 19th, 2012
10:06 am

Spot on…why Israelis continue to deny this must have to do with wanting to push the envelope indefinitely….whining about how their people are under attack…gets old…I think they like to use it to justify the unjustifiable..

RF

November 19th, 2012
10:23 am

@alex: as a kid, it was fun. Now it’s a piece of nostalgia I hold dear. We also have a magnolia tree from the old Magnolia room (they had them in pots outside the entrance) that my dad planted on my granparent’s property years ago. The land sold but the tree’s still there last time I drove out that way.

As to Marta, I’ve used it too, but often by the time I get to a station, I’m close enough to downtown that it doesn’t save me much money or time coming from the southside. I remember distinctly how opposed folks in Clayton were to it, and how much of it had to do with access to the ‘burbs by the poor blacks in the myriad city housing projects. When the buses started rolling into south Fulton where I grew up, a lot of white folks put up ‘for sale’ signs and moved to Fayette and Coweta. We need more longer range rail option to get people into and out of the city similar to what you see in the northeast. I’d go to downtown Atlanta more if I didn’t have to drive all the way to College Park or the airport to catch a Marta train.

independent thinker

November 19th, 2012
10:25 am

Jay – Israel might have a military advantage with its air force and larger army and navy but what Iran is proving daily with its proxy war in Gaza and earlier war in Lebanon is that when the other side has unlimited rockets and now drones and the rockets get bigger and more accurate, the equation becomes more balanced. What if there are chemical weapons in those Hamas//.Iranian rockets?????? of course the narrative about Dresden left out Hitler’s use of v-2 rockets which did provoke our combined air forces and unlike your article legitimized the disparate response.

As long as CNN and other news reporters show wounded civilians on the other side (some of who are not even in Gaza that is a whole other story) the Palestinians and their Iranian backers have an advantage over Israel through the media. Why no pictures of dead and wounded Israeli children in the AJC?Or did they not count?

Joe Hussein Mama

November 19th, 2012
10:25 am

joe — “Here’s a thought for you libs. You shouldn’t be supporting in any form or fashion, terrorists who would like nothing more than to apply their sharia laws on you to take away your freedoms and open lifestyle.”

This is why we didn’t vote for Mitt Romney. :D

Finn de Siècle (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)

November 19th, 2012
10:25 am

Int he first 65 years of the US, we had fought two wars with England, a war with the Kingdom of Tripoli (Barbary pirates), multiple actions against pirates in the caribbean, Greece, and Gulf of Mexico, multiple actions in Argentina, Peru, etc. And we were about to enter a two year war with Mexico.

This is just Israel and Palestine working it out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations

Ben

November 19th, 2012
10:25 am

If Israel lays down their weapons, they will be attacked on all sides, not just by Palestinians, but by all the surrounding countries. If the Palestinians lay down their arms, there will be peace, and Israel won’t attack them.

How;s that for moral equivalence? I don’t subscribe to jus in bello (how to wage a war justly), just jus ad bellum (whether it is just to engage in war in the first place). Israel has every right to go to war with someone who is indiscriminately shooting rockets in to their country. And once a war has begun, a country owes it to its citizens to prosecute that war to the fullest of their ability. Any concept of proportionality is inane, and will only lead to longer, more drawn out wars with more death and less peace. The history of this conflict alone proves this, if the rest of the wars of humanity haven’t already convinced you. Sadly most of you will probably ignore history, and say Israel should be proportional. In other words, you support long drawn out wars with more death and misery than otherwise there would be. Try to think beyond simple cliches like, “World peace” and think about how things actually happen in the real world.

Finn de Siècle (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)

November 19th, 2012
10:26 am

oh, and don’t forget the many Indian Wars we fought even in those early years of our existence.

Ben

November 19th, 2012
10:27 am

Independent thinker: CNN and the rest of the media are showing pictures of dead Israeli children. They are just falsely saying they are dead Palestinian children. Only a fool would expect honesty from these folks after watching the last election.

GT

November 19th, 2012
10:27 am

Since the way the Bush administration handled the Hussein execution I have never felt a moral high ground in the Middle East, the dirty detail of handing him over to a mob, Michal Vick type entertainment with humans instead of dogs. And then the war was supposed to end like a Christmas party where the invitation says 6 till 8. How’s that work for ya?

RF

November 19th, 2012
10:28 am

@joe: I don’t think anyone here has said they support Hamas and its missile shooting. But if you read about it, you realize Israel hasn’t been exactly fair about Gaza either, and they clearly have the upper hand with all the support from the U.S.

Joe Hussein Mama

November 19th, 2012
10:28 am

I. Thinker — “What if there are chemical weapons in those Hamas//.Iranian rockets??????”

Escalation of that type invites escalation on the other side as well. Assuming Hamas has access to biochem weapons, I think they could expect an immediate invasion if they used weapons of that sort against civilian targets.

That said, depending on the type and formulation of the agents involved, the use of biochem weapons might give the source away.

Stevie Ray

November 19th, 2012
10:29 am

Joe

That’s quite a sweeping generalization to a much more more complex reality..it’s not just liberals who are sick and tired of Israel who after 60 years, remains an global pain in the arse…As for sharia law, the Palestinians simply want to improve their lot…they are clearly being suppressed by the superiorly armed Zionists..

So all of us are at risk of Sharia law..how do you justify that?

Banderson

November 19th, 2012
10:29 am

Gaza must be the first concentration camp with an arsenal of missles. Why doesn’t Egypt take down its wall between Gaza and itself? Why don’t they just annex Gaza? Why isn’t oil money from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, et al doing anything for these people other than buying them missles? Not excusing all of the things Israel does – just saying it’s a two way street.

alex

November 19th, 2012
10:30 am

With Israeli’s form of govt. and the numerous factions, is it possible for a party or coalition of groups to both compromise with the pallestinians and stay in power?

@ barking frog, the questions of “whose land is it” have existed for millinea, the UN will not solve it

Finn de Siècle (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)

November 19th, 2012
10:31 am

LOL, Ben. Yeah, Fox News got it right! It’s the MSM that all teamed together to give the election to Oblamer!

Stevie Ray

November 19th, 2012
10:31 am

Ben

November 19th, 2012
10:27 am

Last I heard, 3 people have died in Israel..can you kindly steer me to link that will help me understand the truth as you know it?

USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)

November 19th, 2012
10:32 am

“Uncle Meatwall’s chest pounding is kinda cute.”

Meatwall.

I haven’t heard that expression in at least a year. Revived just in time for the holiday crowds!

Nero

November 19th, 2012
10:33 am

Let them kill each other until one side wins.