The future of capitalism will not look like its past

Charts, graphs, tables, economics…our boy’s back home….

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JAY

I think the student debt, job market, economic meltdown and the like has our already softened underbelly looking for more help from Gov’t…example is OWS..

My other comment is whether you have read up on what is happening in France (our current trajectory, in many ways, may get us there) as “French companies have shrunk almost 40 percent over the past decade, while those of companies in Germany—where painful labor-market reforms were carried out—have risen about 40 percent.” Check out the link that discusses the letter from CEO’s of top French enterprises…

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-11-14/french-ceos-help

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All your progeny are belong to us.

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Yup. The younger generation bases its opinion on what it has seen, not on what it’s been taught as an academic construct. And what it has seen in the lives of their parents and grandparents isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement. So if capitalists view this as another market to win, the power brokers will attempt to deliver the goods. So far, with an immediate example the current deficit talks with Republicans holding onto ‘let the rich keep more, let the less affluent bear the burden,’ they aren’t winning any market share.

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Well, this is kinda suprizing. I thought we brought our young people up better than that. I mean, if you want to be a millionaire. you got to have capitalism. I know I’m in my 60s and I still hope to be a millionaire. I only got about $989,000 to go and I’ll be there. And the worst part, these young people are going to be the majority one day. We’re headed to Socialism! I’m just glad I won’t be around to see it. Heck, if they get their way I’ll probly have to share a grave with somebody. Maybe even one of Those People or a Mexican.

It’s all the fault of Obamacare and this Kenyan Socialist Marxist President! One day everybody will have guvmint health care and no one will be hungry or in poverty and then where will we be? I’ll tell you where. Nobody will want to work at low wage jobs and everybody will get guvmint freebies. This is awful! Working your way up to a good job will be useless as the teats on a boar hog. If you can’t look down on somebody and call them deadbeats and people that made Bad Choices and won’t take Personal Responsibilty then what’s the use of living?

This is bad, bad, bad. We need to send every young person in America—except members of Young Republicans—to reeducation camps.And they need to stay there till they beleive capitalism is the only way to go. It needs to happen pronto. Right now. It’s alot worse than I thought.

Thanks, Bookman, for making my day grayer than the skies.

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JAY

Per WinstonChurchhill.com:

These quotes make for good story-telling but popular myth has falsely attributed them to Churchill.

“Conservative by the time you’re 35″

“If you’re not a liberal when you’re 25, you have no heart. If you’re not a conservative by the time you’re 35, you have no brain.” There is no record of anyone hearing Churchill say this. Paul Addison of Edinburgh University makes this comment: “Surely Churchill can’t have used the words attributed to him. He’d been a Conservative at 15 and a Liberal at 35! And would he have talked so disrespectfully of Clemmie, who is generally thought to have been a lifelong Liberal?”

AND

http://www.livescience.com/2360-busting-myth-people-turn-liberal-age.html

“By comparing surveys of various age groups taken over a span of more than 30 years, sociologists found that in general, Americans’ opinions veer toward the liberal as they grow older.

“All the evidence we have found refutes the idea that as people age their attitudes become more conservative or more rigid,” said Nicholas Danigelis, a sociologist at the University of Vermont. “It’s just not true. More people are changing in a liberal direction than in a conservative direction.”

Just so ya’ know.

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Capitalism and Socialism are not mutually exclusive. The United States has demonstrated and continues to demonstrate that.

For the purposes of discussion, it might be worthwhile for Jay to provide an operational definition of these two terms. I’m not sure that most people really understand what they mean.

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We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can’t have both. ~Louis Brandeis, 1941

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CJ

“Capitalism and Socialism are not mutually exclusive.”

And in those societies where the two have reached an entente, life is pretty good…

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The schools are fulfilling their destiny as described in the Communist Manifesto.

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Gibbon, anyone?

Rolling forward in the chariots at full speed!!!!

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IMAM

Wow! Red letter date. You admit you were wrong and stand corrected! Has Granny now been elevated to MAJOR historian?

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Good info, Granny.

And here I always thought that I was some sort of special outlier only to find out that I’m just a regular schmoe.

Such is life!

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Hey CJ

” it might be worthwhile for Jay to provide an operational definition of these two terms. I’m not sure that most people really understand what they mean.”

I’m in the mood for some cheap entertainment, so when Ben Shockley shows up, would you please ask him that?

Seriously, though, to many of the New Republican Fold, ’socialism’ is a ‘you are lost forever to eternal damnation” label, given how they use the label ‘moderate’ to try and knock someone out of a primary contest.

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CITIZEN

CITIZEN

On Obamacare…the problem there is that we’re trying to mix the two and that’s a recipe for disaster. The medical/insurance/pharmaceutical interests are happy as a pig in sh*t, of course, being good capitalists, but the average Joe Shmo will wind up paying for it and thus the whole megillah ends up full of sound and fury and signifying very little, the way I see it. This is a half assed measure sure to produce half assed results.

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josef

Major Historian? Flattery will get you everywhere….

JamVet my sweet,

You are an IRregular schmoe and it looks good on you.

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Buy a diamond for your honey from Tom Shane and get a FREE rifle!

Is this country great or what?

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Capitalism has withstood the test of time and is far from dead. While some folks in the developed regions of the world may have reservations about capitalism, folks in the developing regions of the world seem to like the innovation, economic growth and rising standards of living that come with it Young Americans will figure this out or they’ll watch others eat their lunch. My guess is that they’ll embrace capitalism as they form families and try to make a go of it.

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I think we have social capitalism
but the Republicans of late have
adopted politically pure capitalism
as an ideal and I think Romney’s
defeat has ended that trend.

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to some, “Socialism” has become the “OMG, that’s the WORST THING IN THE WORLD!”

but think back. . .just a couple of years ago. (*twirling spirals in front of you*). (you know, the 20’s).

When robber barons, you know, robbed.
When labor was used like slave labor
When children were forced to work

Ahhh, the good ol’ days of Capitalism at its peak.

So, a few controls were put in place, “regulations” if you will. Because some capitalists just have no self control.

(spirals)

Today, the middle class in shrinking, expanding the lower class.
Companies that could pay a fair wage for full time folks complain about taxes, and make people part-time.
The current theme is profits and profits NOW, OR ELSE.
Regulations are repealed, or rather ignored if not repealed. It’s “cheaper” to get caught and pay a minor fine than actually follow the rules.

Ah well. . my mind is all over the map on this one.

Gonna go hunt some liberals. . . .”SOCIALIZED MEDICINE! SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!”

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As more and more youth are disenfranchised of their participation in the capitalist system (witness 50% of college grads without a job) and become disaffected, why wouldn’t they naturally look elsewhere. They see a world without opportunity controlled by giant corporations intent on sending every job in America to a foreign country.

As an aside, I would like to see the United States government open and fund hospitals for the poor and the elderly not as a socialist move, but rather as a cost-saving (to the taxpayers) move. I would also like to see the United States government fund education for Doctors who can be identified as lacking the resources to fund their own education.

It’s time medical care left the “old boy” school behind. Maybe then, at long last, we might see a decline in astronomical medical care expenses.

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When you have little (and little to lose) socialism looks great. Gimme the freebies!

When you have worked your azz off and have managed, through life, to gain some things, socialism looks like theft.

Thus, I suspect that Jay’s chart has looked like it has since at least the 1960’s. Nothing new here.

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St. Simons Is. would be a great place to set up several hundred housing projects.

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A virtual dollar for anyone who can get the reference for hunting liberals

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If you want pure capitalism look at the 18 hundreds. Rockfeller, JP Morgan, Carnegie were pure bred capitalist. In early 1900s we started the feds. Teddy, FDR, Truman, Eisenhower and Johnson brought small doses of socialism and mixed them with capitalism. That is when the US grew by leap and bounds. Reagan started to reverse that experiment. Guess what. Greed took precedence and we started having huge pendulum swings in the economy. The young folks have noticed that and want to go back to their parent and grand parent’s days.

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heyyy betty dam glad you’re back,
you have de island sense of humor,

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“…in part because as people get older, they acquire more wealth and want to protect it.”

True, there’s that. But one big reason we older folk have to be more serious about earning and holding on to $ is so that the younger demographic, including our adult offspring who we’re still supporting, can enjoy the luxury of their counterculture world view (which they usually outgrow).

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No problem with folks who may need a littlle help, but what got this administration back in was (yeah, I know, besides the terrible Repub soundbytes that they tripped over) was the threat that the free stuff might quit flowing! Unions that started off as a good thing are now running business out of business………….the Dodd Frank bill has screwed up banking more than Matt Millen screwed up the Detroit Lions, and whether it is Obamacare or whatever will not matter before long….nobody (even those who PRODUCE) will be able to afford it. We are being forced towards Socialism…..
@ hewhoasks: I’m glad your folks did well, but the unions back then were alot different than these 364 days-off/55-sick-day/ can’t fire a slacker rectum-heads we have now!

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The cultural environment the younger generation has been exposed to may also make a difference in their outlook. This may be Republican marketing gone awry. No one in America these days seems to know what socialism actually is. The 18-29 group is a strong demographic for Obama. Since you can hardly see his name anymore without the word “socialist” in the same sentence, it’s possible the Rs have convinced the younger generation that he really is a socialist. So in their minds, a socialist is a good guy, a guy who’s on our side.

While older folk like me think, “Goodness, for a socialist, this guy sure does seem to go for the capitalist solution to everything. He didn’t start a WPA or a CCC; he bailed out the auto industry. He didn’t try to nationalize health care; he mandated that everyone buy health insurance.”

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Jay, It appears as if you were right on this one.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/californians-can-now-fill-algae-based-biodiesel-1C7125794

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“My own view is that capitalism carries the seeds of its own destruction”

ALL social and economic systems carry the seeds of their own destruction. The trick it to keep those seeds from sprouting.

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Thanks, JamVet,
Just doin’ what I can…………

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p.s. Jamvet, I cannot stand Limbaugh…really!

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@Redneck Convert (R–and proud of it)

November 19th, 2012
4:13 pm

These young people are going to be the majority one day. We’re headed to Socialism! I’m just glad I won’t be around to see it.

Heck, if they get their way I’ll probly have to share a grave with somebody. Maybe even one of Those People or a Mexican.

=================================================

You can’t hide your TRUE COLORS as you approach the autumn of your life.

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Banderson @ 4:58

I don’t think that one requires a chart. Seems as though that would be about as obvious as water is wet.

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skipper

In 2011, the union membership rate–the percent of wage and salary workers who were members of a union–was 11.8 percent, essentially unchanged from 11.9 percent in 2010, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. The number of wage and salary workers belonging to unions, at 14.8 million, also showed little movement over the year. In 1983, the first year for which comparable union data are available, the union membership rate was 20.1 percent and there were 17.7 million union workers.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

That means that, since 1983, union membership has dropped 3 million members, but as a percentage of the work force, unions have lost half their percentage of the workforce in almost 30 years. Why are you attempting to lay blame for our economic issues on 10% of the workforce? Do you not realize that 90% have more effect than 10% does?

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The generational differences reflected in those numbers are stark. Americans aged 18-29 are deeply ambivalent about capitalism, while a slight plurality is supportive of socialism. Their grandparents, on the other hand, offer a mirror-image reversal, reporting an overwhelmingly negative view of socialism and a generally positive attitude toward capitalism.

One word: Roosevelt.

They had Roosevelt, a product of the aristocracy who was the American leader who came along at just the right moment to save capitalism from itself.

Who did we get? Barack Obama. A deeply insecure product of the immigrant class who carefully worked his way up the establishment by learning to play its game, and by carefully learning how to flatter it and not step on its toes.

He’s the ultimate servant of that establishment.

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GROWING OLD

Oh, the Du-k-sha-nee doesn’t hide his true colors…a capitalist running dog of Yankee imperialism, he. And an elitist, classist snob…imeoiauo….

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Rush? The king of sluts, prostitutes and FemiNazi lovers everywhere?

That guy is a real work of art.

Skip, go tell that to the men and women at Lockheed Martin. Boeing, Northrup Grumman, General Dynamics, etc.

Union-busitng is anti-American, it reeks of fascism and is part and parcel of why you neocons just got your heads kicked in on November 6.

Keep up the good work…

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Jay – aren’t you mixing apples with oranges? I consider socialism a political system and capitalism an ecomomic one. I was taught many years ago in school that the U.S. was basically a social democracy. This was due to the inclusion of social programs like Social Security and Medicare. Maybe there is a mixture here of as opposed of true government centered Socialism or Communism. But our democratic style of government maintains our current economic capitalistic system.

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One of the first things Hitler did was get rid of all the unions. Historical fact.

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Capitalism got the raw deal when current society got so greedy it forgot about the human being.

CEOs want more than their fair share and will sell out their employes for more money……Follow the career of Romney.

Congress will sell out their principals so they can get inside information, and benefit as the rest of the country suffers….but hey at least most have doubled their net worth in the last 4 years…… well heck they know who is getting the next contracts…..good to be on all those committees.

Social security, that all put into has been stolen from, and that is because we need wars for oil, or pork to get a deal done in Washington.

And of course there are the few who know how to work the system, and get paid to have kids and rip off the working American’s…… It is an ugly place the current America….. where hating your neighbor is the real trend.

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WELCOME

Me and Big Daddy BOTH agreeing with you? Damn! What’s next?

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Jam

Earlier you mentioned the “war on Christmas”, one Pat Robertson coming up. He never disappointments.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/19/pat-robertson-miserable-atheists-trying-to-steal-christmas_n_2159844.html?utm_hp_ref=religion

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Maybe it is as simple as this generation of young people have been provided for all of their lives, have been cushioned by indulgent parents, and we know they continue to live at home long after previous generations. I can understand their liking socialism. They have never had to contribute to the lives of others, and have never even supported themselves.

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TBS — “Earlier you mentioned the “war on Christmas”, one Pat Robertson coming up. He never disappointments.”

When Mr. Robertson stops talking about atheists, I’ll stop talking about pigf***ers and Pat Robertson. But I repeat myself.

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Bro

quit trying to confuse us with facts.

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Well I think you used to agree with me more, Jay, did you not, that is before I became a bit more shall we say “radicalized”?

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Human success relies entirely on communities. No human on his isolated self-sufficient farm could build a computer or a satellite – despite the idiotic belief of many that they alone earned their income. The very concepts of “income” and “money” rely on a community called “modern civilization”.

I think we need an explicit theory of this economic network, a theory that explains how achievement within this network owes a share to civilization itself. Isaac Newton acknowledged that his accomplishments built on other people’s work, but many contemporary Americans fail to recognize that their entire careers couldn’t even exist without a complex civilization. They honestly believe that “they own every penny” they make, and that any attempt by the organization that creates civilization on top of lawless gangs (aka “Government”) to tax some of their income is “theft at the point of a gun”. Ah, if only they could be truly dumped into a gangster society in which that were literally true!!

In other words, civilization has a marketing problem. It should be immediately clear to everyone that such sentiments are absurd, but we don’t have a widely accepted theory that proves it. Such a theory will include pithy phrases exposing such “self made men” as the ignorant moochers they actually are.

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JHM

I’m just posting what the man said. Take it for any value or lack of value as you wish.

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Thanks BOTH,

Robertson’s not miserable.

He’s wearing $2000 Italian suits and getting little old ladies to give him their pension money for some more!

Romney/Ryan lost both Massachusetts and Wisconsin.

Ouch.

That’s got to leave a mark.

Union-busting didn’t work out so well for the 1% lapdogs, huh?

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Sorry, here’s the link: http://news.yahoo.com/hostess-liquidation-too-sweet-managers-u-says-191817929–sector.html

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“We have Barack Obama, the ultimate of appeaser of capitalism and enabler of some of its absolute worst tendencies.”
———————————————————————

Welcome, I believe, in all due respect, that you have personal biases against President Obama and his agenda. He is the president who more than any other in over 60 years was able to get through Congress the closest model of universal health care for all Americans that he could muster given the extremely rightwing agenda of most Republicans. And that is only one arena in which he has been fighting to make our society more equitable.

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Yep….and that small union % so effeciently described by many has even out the Twinkie folks out……

I guess you completely ignore the other crap that went on, such as 8 CEO’s in almost as many years, huh? Do you blame the venture capitalists who bought the parent company in hopes of splitting it up to make a quick buck trying to sell off individual parts instead of trying to repair the company? Nope, in your tiny, single-cell brain, it’s all because of the unions. Capitalism is never at fault for anything it does wrong, but it gets all the praise for what’s right. Such a dumbass…

I sure hope your brand of stoopids isn’t contagious, but I fear you’re simply regurgitating what you’ve heard repeated by your fellow groupspeak minions on the right.

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For Mr. Robertson…

Fascist Christ, come to the rescue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxW4U-SOqN8

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Paul, my useless guess?

The right wing will feign remorse, and then……………………. do absolutely nothing different.

The upcoming “fiscal cliff” budget talks will start telling the tale.

But I suspect a couple more really ugly election results for the GOP are gonna be required…

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“There are many ways to interpret numbers like that, the most obvious being the Churchillian observation that people tend to grow more conservative as they get older.”

Winnie never said that. It’s one of those spurious Churchill quotations. Churchill himself grew more liberal as he got older.

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/learn/myths/myths/quotes-falsely-attributed-to-him

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COMMON SENSE

Ain’t that the truth…of course in my case it’s anyone over 80…doddering old delusional lickspittle fools!

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“hunting liberals” reference comes from “Bloom County”.

I really thought SOMEONE would come up with that one!
Enjoy your Monday Night (football) everyone!

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they are our (since most of us here are d’un certain age or more) product and of our own “making.”

Damned right we are. Sooner or later (hopefully sooner), we’ll get control of the wheel and turn this country around. We already know we’re gonna have to pay for the mistakes and mis-planning of our elders. We just wish y’all would quit screwing things up worse than they already are.

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Long live the Twinkies.

Well regulated capitalism works to give us full employment for revenue.

Get back to work.

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“ugly election results”?…….The Democrats won by about 2.5 million votes. There are over 300M people in this country. Over 49% soundly rejected Bozo and all he stands for. They don’t want to live in a Bozo America. You might have won but now you own it. All of it. Every last damned bit of it. No more Bush. No more excuses. It’s all yours. Think that things are going to be any different than the last 4 yrs? If you do, you don’t have a clue about Bozo’s plans to “essentially change this country”. Think he gives a tinker’s damn about the average American? If you do, your naive nature is doing you in. He cares about one thing. Changing this country to fit his own image. And you are going to let him do it. So you own it, liberals. Every last friggin’ part of it. And who loses?….. America loses…. big time.

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JamVet

Was listening to one of those news shows panel discussions and they brought in a clip from Grover Norquist. Why is Grover opposed to tax increases on the wealthy?

Because that’ll lead to tax increases on the the middle class and ‘everyone knows that’s where the REAL money is.”

I’ve been waiting for a chance to have our conservative economically-savvy bloggers explain that one -

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As Robert A. Heinlein said, the future will not be anything imagined by either Thomas Jefferson or Karl Marx.

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Capitalism and Socialism are not mutually exclusive.

See Sweden….in a democracy no less…. not advocating… just saying

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Sooth

Hey man. Hope all is well. Before seeing you on the blog yesterday, I had not seen you in a while.

If for someone reason I do not see you before the end of the week, hope you and yours have a great Thanksgiving holiday.

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Brosephus – 5:36

Almost certainly, the big wheel “twinkie folks” will leave with large golden parachutes billowing in the wind.

And, for certain, the workers won’t get didley.

Predatory capatilism – keeping the 1% in their bed of roses and many of the rest of us in a painful nest of thorns.

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Thanks, BOTH, that’s very nice of you. I think there are some bloggers here who wish that I would never return. Too bad!

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The Democrats won by about 2.5 million votes. There are over 300M people in this country. Over 49% soundly rejected Bozo and all he stands for.

You fail to mention that, even after four years of Obama, Romney didn’t even match McCain’s vote total. Some kind of overwhelming rejection of Obama, huh?

—————

josef

Probably sooner than later. She’s turning out to be one smart little independent child…

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From Newsmax and probably more appropriate to downstairs, but it’s an interesting read and brings up a point I have never understood…

Newsmax.com

Breaking from Newsmax.com

Hamas Sacrifices Civilians as Military Tactic

By Alan Dershowitz

As the rockets continue to fall in Israel and Gaza, it is important to understand Hamas’s tactic and how the international community and the media are encouraging it.

Hamas’ tactic is as simple as it is criminal and brutal. Its leaders know that by repeatedly firing rockets at Israeli civilian areas, they will give Israel no choice but to respond. Israel’s response will target the rockets and those sending them. In order to maximize their own civilian casualties, and thereby earn the sympathy of the international community and media, Hamas leaders deliberately fire their rockets from densely populated civilian areas. The Hamas fighters hide in underground bunkers but Hamas refuses to provide any shelter for its own civilians, who they use as “human shields.”

This unlawful tactic presents Israel with a tragic choice: simply allow Hamas rockets to continue to target Israeli cities and towns; or respond to the rockets, with inevitable civilian casualties among the Palestinian “human shields.”

Every democracy would choose the latter option if presented with a similar choice. Although Israel goes to great efforts to reduce civilian casualties, the Hamas tactic is designed to maximize them. The international community and the media must understand this and begin to blame Hamas, rather than Israel, for the Palestinian civilians who are killed by Israeli rockets but whose deaths are clearly part of the Hamas tactic.

Every reasonable commentator has agreed with President Barack Obama that Hamas started this battle by firing thousands of rockets at Israeli civilians. Every reasonable commentator also agrees with Obama that Israel has the right to defend its citizens. But many commentators fault Israel for causing Palestinian civilian casualties. But what is Israel’s option, other than to simply allow rockets to be aimed at its own women and children?

As Obama observed when he went to Sderot as a candidate: “The first job of any nation state is to protect its citizens. And so I can assure you that if… somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I’m going to do everything in my power to stop that. And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing.”

Israel should continue to make every effort to reduce civilian casualties, both because that is the humane thing to do and because it serves their interests. But so long as Hamas continues to fire rockets from densely populated civilian areas, rather than from the many open areas outside of Gaza City, this cynical tactic — which constitutes a double war crime — will guarantee that some Palestinian women and children will be killed. And the Hamas leadership prepares for this gruesome certainty by arranging for the dead babies to be paraded in front of the international media. In one such case, the Palestinian radicals posted a video of a dead baby who turned out to have been killed in Syria by the Assad government, and in another case, they displayed the body of a baby who had been killed by a Hamas rocket that misfired, falsely claiming that it had been the victim of an Israeli rocket.

As Richard Kemp, the former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, has said, the Israeli Army does “more to safeguard civilians than any army in the history of warfare.” This includes dropping leaflets, making phone calls and providing other warnings to civilian residents of Gaza City. But Hamas refuses to provide shelter for its civilians, deliberately exposing them to the risks associated with warfare, while it shelters its own fighters in underground bunkers.

The Hamas tactic is also designed to prevent Israel from making peace with the Palestinian Authority. Even Israeli doves are concerned that if Israel ends its occupation of the West Bank, Hamas may take over that territory, as it took over Gaza shortly after Israel ended its occupation of that area. The West Bank is much closer to Israel’s major population centers than Gaza. If Hamas were to fire rockets from the West Bank at Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, Israel would then have to respond militarily, as it has in Gaza. Once again, civilians would be killed, thus provoking international outcry against Israel.

What we are seeing in Gaza today is a replay of what happened in 2008 and 2009, when Israel went into Gaza to stop the rocket fire. The result was the Goldstone Report, which put the blame squarely on Israel. This benighted report — condemned by most thoughtful people, and eventually even critiqued by Goldstone himself — has encouraged Hamas to go back to the tactic that resulted in international condemnation of Israel. This tactic will persist as long as the international community and the media persist in blaming Israel for civilian deaths caused by a deliberate Hamas tactic.

© 2012 Newsmax. All rights reserved.

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indigo

They’re going through mediation, so there’s hope that a decision can be reached that’s equitable to all parties. I wish companies would start going back to the traditional means of financing instead of private equity firms. Those people don’t give a flying f**k about jobs or the people who rely on them.

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As a young man of 70 I can understand how the youth of today find some favor with socialism. They may have some understanding of how Roosevelt saved capitalism in the 30s. He regulated the banks and set up an insurance system for the financial industry that worked just fine right up until 1980. His system worked until the deregulation boys got to work and destroyed the S & Ls and then wrecked the insurance and commercial banks. Watching government bailouts gives one a little cynicism toward the free market. The government projects of the 30s provided the hydro electric dams that were critical sources of energy in WW II. Had Roosevelt not put the country to work, we might have looked at a much different outcome.
Among its other features Germany has one of the strongest union movements in Europe. One of Merkel’s campaign themes was that her opponent wanted to install a US style health care system. Europeans view that as the briar patch of health care.
Also, since 1980 the rewards of capitalism have gone to fewer and fewer people. In turn they have been given tax cuts in honor of those rewards.
Our most significant achievement this year was landing a rover on Mars. That requires both private companies and government funding and research. Giving rewards to hedge fund traders and not the real rocket scientists reflects our twisted priorities. The space program and government research have given us the lead in the internet and many materials applications. Anyone who looks at our 20th century history would have to see the value of government as well as private enterprise at work.

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“About the only people who are crowing on about a mandate are liberals. No one received a mandate, even with a Democratic victory. We all lost.”

How about we drop the word ‘mandate’ and instead say “the American people had a chance to evaluate Pres Obama’s proposals and Gov Romney’s proposals about how to handle the deficit and a majority sided with Pres Obama”?

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Bro – You fail to mention that, even after four years of Obama, Romney didn’t even match McCain’s vote total.

Obama was down – 8M from 2008 while Romney was down 2M from McCain…if Mitt had McCians turn out he’d of lost the PV by 1M +/-

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Skip

“if you’re going to get me mixed up with Skipper I’ll have to change my name”

How about Gilligan, the Professor, or Thurston Howell III?

I’d advise against Ginger or MaryAnn, though…..

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Welcome, in terms of Obama’s choices regarding the Israeli and Palestinians, imo, you are judging instead of waiting and watching what President Obama will do in the long run. Please read the link below.

History’s unfolding is extremely complex, and to have it unfold in a positive way, for all concerned, will require many intelligent moves, not all of which should be blatantly made.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/nov/18/obama-warns-israel-palestinians-further-escalation/?page=all#pagebreak

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PAUL

How about we say a majority of those who bothered…?

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Michael: ” One of Merkel’s campaign themes was that her opponent wanted to install a US style health care system. Europeans view that as the briar patch of health care.”

And yet the Tories in Britain are busy stealthily instating just that, despite having run on keeping their filthy Oxbridge hands off the NHS. It’s quite amazing to watch..

Anyway, after all the chips fall after the precipice is hit that Europe is now hurtling towards, it’s doubtful how much if any of the universal health systems on the continent will still be standing. By the way did you hear the story of the unemployed and uninsured woman in Greece who finally went to he emergency room a year after a breast cancer diagnosis which went untreated? The tumor was the size of a grapefruit and had burst through the skin. The staff at the clinic her in tears, having never seen such a thing outside in textbooks.

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K71…..those who feel that America lost were those who ALREADY had the wealth or those who fell for the LIES that Romney was telling throughout the campaign!! Those who feel that America is getting better are those who see the inequities and want to work to make the system more equitable!! We’re NOT advocating for equality of RESULT…..but equality of OPPORTUNITY!!

You can’t say that we ALL have the same opportunities…because we DON’T!!

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josef

Or as my brother says after a football game where the guys whose team scored the fewer points are arguing about all the ‘bad’ calls and how they changed the game’s outcome: “Scoreboard!!”

And in this case, it’s Obama on the scoreboard at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue -

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“Capitalism is not a static concept; it must live by its own rules, which means that it will adapt or it will fall.”

That latter option would be to fall into what? The basic template of american style capitalism seems to be consistent; small business and entrepreneurs, If the corporates don’t gobble everything up.
Manufacturing needs to return strong, adequate tax structure, and we’ll keep rolling along with the usual potholes, bumps and forks in the road.
Yes, I’m an optimist and this past election keeps us on a measured path into the unknown…

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HDB, 6:21,

“equality of OPPORTUNITY’……. who ever said life was fair? Should everyone win a trophy? Tell that to Bill Gates who started a corporation that his changed the lives of every single American more than anyone who came before him. Everyone doesn’t win, HDB. Suck it up.

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I disagree with bookman’s view of the post 89 period

No one consciously sat down and said: well! Now we can have a real capitalist party.

And it didn’t happen inadvertently either.

We weren’t drastically more “free market” after 89 than before

In fact the data on the continued growth of government post 89 suggests the exact opposite, such that the government now runs almost 1/2 the economy

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Erwin

That is a very realistic possibility, however we can only go by what we know. And what we know is who voted and the slackers who chose not to do so.

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Mary Elizabeth:

Sorry, but that’s some pretty weak brew.

“The president reiterated Israel’s right to defend itself and said the provocation began with rockets fired at Israel from Gaza”.

The president carefully ignores the fact that the more direct provocation was the assassination of a young Palestinian boy playing soccer. Gunned down through the stomach.

It would be possible for him to be a little less of a squish if he just simply said that our prayers and sympathies are with the suffering Palestinian people. “We strongly urge against an Israel ground invasion”.

Btw it strikes me how you cite MLK’s “long arc of history” dictum for the diametrical opposite purpose to what MLK himself cited it for. For him, this view of history and suffering called for all good people of conscience to take a stand against injustice NOW, not tomorrow or down some fuzzy feel-good line somewhere.

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KAYAKER AND BOTH

I have to disagree with you. That is not what counts the most. What counts the most and what is sending us into a tailspin is that a near majority don’t bother and neither “side” is addressing that sad statistic. Why? And don’t fall for that red herring that they are stupid, ignorant, lazy, don’t care and what-have-you. Many, if not most, just see it as an exercise in futility with a choice between Tweedledum and Tweedledee….the same old whine in new bottles…

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yaker

**It is a sad respite to a once great and beautiful country. And the most sadness comes from someone like you celebrating it’s demise.**

Nothing is over until we say it is!
When I’m out in tahoe next month will this country be any less beautiful no matter who is president?
Yes, I’ll be out there spending and living, just as always.
If your so quick to pronounce the demise of this country that just tells me you’ve never really understood what it’s about anyway…

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If the country were truly disgusted with Obama, as kayaker and others claim, Romney should have easily won this past election.

I agree.

It was the challenger’s job to get a message of change out. That’s how Obama won in 2008 against a perception that McCain was more of the same.

I would say that the majority of those that didn’t vote were giving tacit approval for the current administration.

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ERWIN
@ 6:28

Word.

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josef

Did I say or imply that they were stupid, etc? No I did not. However I did say that what does count is who votes on election day and that is a fact.

I said it was a sad commentary that more folks don’t vote. I agree that both sides are good with that as long as they get the majority of those who do vote, but save the implications and innuendo.

If that is a major contention for you then I suggest you start a program to get more involved in the political process, if you are not already doing so.

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EC @ 6:28

Very true for any of us, regardless of political leanings.

Godless was pushing support local business this past Saturday. I hope folks did and will continue to do so when they can.

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BUY LOCAL
support small biz…Until the consumer stops the Walmart mentality of buy cheap crap..nothing will change…spend a lil more and BUY LOCAL

THIS!!!!!

I can’t remember the last time I spent a penny in Wal Mart.

—————

What counts the most and what is sending us into a tailspin is that a near majority don’t bother and neither “side” is addressing that sad statistic. Why?

The reason why is they are both one and the same now, and many people realize that. When the Democratic Party champions supply-sided methods to help the economy, we all know this country is f**ked up.

When there are no equal opposites to balance each other out, we end up getting off track. We have been so unbalanced for so long, I don’t know if anybody knows what “on track” would even imply anymore.

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How amazing!
Thanks to the incredible public school system’s of Amerika!

how far we’ve come in only 4 short years, and how much more we can accomplish in the next 4!

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Dave: “Sounds good; and, I don’t know that I disagree with you about it and the subsequent rapacious Nineties. But, some evidence other than that Bonfire of the Vanities came out in the early Nineties?”

It’s a very good point, and in good Marxist fashion, calls for a dialectical analysis.

In the 1970s capitalism entered crisis as the Bretton Woods currency arrangement which was the foundation of the growth period of the 50s and 60s broke down and the labor/capital truce that had held pretty much since the end of WWII also ended. The 1980s saw the first real fruits of the brave new world that set in after the 70s crisis years. They look a bit tame in comparison to today, but it was just the precursor. Gone were the protocols (think Mitt Romney’s father) of capitalist restraint that called for discretion and measure. Instead of capitalists being content to make 30-40x the avg worker at their firms, they would soon start jacking up their compensation towards the levels we see today, ten times that. But all of this took time, and the big crisis of ‘07-08 took some time to germinate and reach critical point. Now that the treasuries of the major western countries have been looted to bail out the banks, now it’s time to start hacking away at the welfare states of the 20th C (or in the US’s case, meager remnants of it). The two major parties in the big countries are all in agreement over this necessity (think “fiscal cliff”, “grand bargain”); they just disagree slightly over tactics and over how ruthlessly to tear off the mask and hack away.

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BOTH

Pardon my lack of clarity in that…my bad…no, I wasn’t attributing that to you personally and should have made that clear, but instead to those who want to discredit the perspective of “the stay at home voter, whose eyes gaze at strange picture shows, at a parade of grey suited grafters, a choice of cancer or polio…”

The addressing to you and Kayaker was because y’all are the two engaged in the discussion of the no-shows…nothing more intended and no innuendo implied…

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“[T]he great global job shift” from North to South [hemispheres], which has become such a central issue in our time, is not to be seen so much in terms of international competition, deindustrialization, economic crisis, new communication technologies—or even such general phenomena as globalization and financialization—though each of these can be said to have played a part. Rather, this shift is to be viewed as the result primarily of the internationalization of monopoly capital, arising from the global spread of multinational corporations and the concentration and centralization of production on a world scale. Moreover, it is tied to a whole system of polarization of wages (as well as wealth and poverty) on a world scale, which has its basis in the global reserve army of labor.

The international oligopolies that increasingly dominate the world economy avoid genuine price competition, colluding instead in the area of price.

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“TaxPayer
November 19th, 2012
6:36 pm

We need a compassionate capitalism as opposed to that offered by Romney and Co.

LinkReport this comment”

Bush tried that with Medicare part D

And you guys keep ridiculing it

So the mistake won’t be repeated

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And have you noticed how quickly the GOP faithful have turned on Mitt? It almost makes you feel sorry for the guy…almost…

I think that they never really accepted him.

Have you made a pledge this holiday season to stay off of ladders?

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No more twinkies. After they killed the car companies. After they killed the steel companies.

What will the lib unions destroy next?

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Kamchak, 6:42,

A huge difference. We used to say in the military that some one was a “good guy”. That implied many things. Many didn’t understand those words but many more did. I wouldn’t have a beer with Bozo if he brought a keg to my house. He would not be welcome.

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Jay,
Could it be that the younger generation’s perception of what comprises ’socialism’ is not as twisted as the older view that holds that what we saw in 20th century USSR was communism or it’s younger sister socialism? Could it be that the they understand that the old Soviet model does not reflect a 21st century model of communism or its younger sister socialism? Could it be that this generation understands that even Lenin himself in 1922 recognized that what was brewing in the Soviet Union as early as 5 years after the 1917 revolution was NOT the model to which he aspired. In fact in 1922 Lenin said the following to reflect his misgiving:

“Let us picture to ourselves a man ascending a very high, steep and hitherto unexplored mountain. Let us assume that he has overcome unprecedented difficulties and dangers and has succeeded in reaching a much higher point than any of his predecessors, but still has not reached the summit. He finds himself in a position where it is not only difficult and dangerous to proceed in the direction and along the path he has chosen, but positively impossible.”

Maybe the younger generation believes that the “all for ourselves, nothing for anyone else” (I believe that’s an expression that Adam Smith used) mantra of the capitalist is not a sustainable economic model, and that a suitable alternative (call it whatever you wish) must be developed and implemented if perpetual war is to be avoided. Maybe the younger generation understands and accepts ‘the charter of the forest’.

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“Tell that to Bill Gates who started a corporation that his changed the lives of every single American more than anyone who came before him.”

I respectfully submit that Edison and Westinghouse surpass Gates in that regard if only because the percentage of households in the US with electricity exceeds the percentage of households with Windows.

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All of this America is toast nonsense is just Republispeak for we got our asses kicked, but good. Again.

You sore losers and crybabies have given up on the United States of America. BFD. Who cares?

The rest of us are gonna keep on working towards a “more perfect union”.

And you fake conservatives can jolly well do whatever the hell you please.

All from somewhere within Loserville…

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Welcome, I don’t know that I’d call your 6:41 analysis rigorous; but, it is interesting. On other than social issues, I’m having a hard time finding a whole lot of difference between Dems and GOP folks. You seem to argue that it’s a conspiracy of sorts, I’d argue it’s because neither side has much of a clue.

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A huge difference.

It always is, especially when it’s your ox getting gored.

In this case, voters connecting with Obama because they think he’s cool is no different than those in 2000 expressing a connection to Bush because they think he’s a person they could sit down and have a beer with.

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kayaker

I will be coming through Macon on my way back from south Ga on Friday.

Be ready to drink some of the “coldest beers” you have ever tasted. I would say in Atlanta as you say, but they will probably have been purchased somewhere in south GA.

Have the tunes on and be ready to Rock n Roll.

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[...] The future of capitalism will not look like its past | Jay Bookman. Share this:TwitterFacebookMoreEmailPrintGoogle +1LinkedInTumblrPinterestDiggRedditStumbleUponLike [...]

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In proportion as capital accumulates, the situation of the worker, be his payment high or low, must grow worse.… The law which always holds the relative surplus population in equilibrium with the extent and energy of accumulation rivets the worker to capital more firmly than the wedges of Hephaestus held Prometheus to the rock. It makes an accumulation of misery a necessary condition, corresponding to the accumulation of wealth. Accumulation at one pole is, therefore, at the same time accumulation of misery, the torment of labour, slavery, ignorance, brutalization and moral degradation at the opposite pole, i.e. on the side of the class that produces its own product as capital.

– Karl Marx, The General Law of Accumulation

This theory was roundly criticized during the post WWII era, but has more meaning today, wouldn’t you agree?

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“Bush tried that with Medicare part D

And you guys keep ridiculing it

So the mistake won’t be repeated”

Bush failed to pay for his compassionate conservatism. That was his mistake. Or at least one of his mistakes.

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Romney lost because he campaigned to the entire electorate until the 1st week of October. Then he made his move to improve his potential vote with women and Latinos but it was to little to late.

The electorate today is not the massive nation of whites was was for over 200 years. Today’s electorate is splintered into assorted groups.

Obama took women, unmarried women, latinos, blacks, asians and the jewish vote. Plus he carried
45% of men.

Like it or not, and I do not, Obama is only the 4th president in the last 108 years to win the popular vote in two presidential elections. The other three are F D Roosevelt, Eisenhower and Reagan. That puts Obama in very rare and exclusive company.

And, Republicans have now lost the popular vote in 5 of the last 6 presidential elections. What will Republicans do to stop it from being 6 of 7? That is really the question for 2016.

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Be a job provider. Run your company in a Socialist manner. And try not to make too much money or you’ll be called a Capitalist.

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“The rest of us are gonna keep on working towards a “more perfect union”.”

Let’s translate that, shall we?

MPU = shared prosperity = social justice= equality of outcomes = economic justice = income redistribution = to each according to their needs = Marxism.

Some of us know reality when we see it.

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“more perfect union”

Dog whistle for complete socialism

Jammie doesn’t care about the rest of the document

Wheels up

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amazing —— this means younger people do not understand anything about capitalism or they would not willing choose socialism………. Obama has been called a socialist as that is where he wants to take the sheep that voted for him to slaughter———- it is really ashame that this once great nation is being taken down the path we fought against for so long. People in the US need to go spend some time in a socialist country and they will find it is not as great as they think

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Dog whistle for complete socialism

“Socialism”

Dog whistle for fear.

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jconservative

Be careful. When I pointed out that popular vote thing in regards to Obama, I was accused of “cherrypicking” data. Seems as though some people have a hard time dealing with facts nowadays.

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Dammit sinkwich

You read my mind

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@EC
Boykin was a talented inventor but his contributions were adapted into larger more complex systems designed by others.

I like the fact that Boykin was able to contribute as he hid despite not having a college degree but he was lucky in that he had a mentor (Frith? Fruth?) to help him along.

Edison, Westinghouse (and Gates) envisioned wholesale product and market opportunity relationships and (nodding to kayaker) capitalized on them.

Read the story on the Edison/Westinghouse feud and the AC vs DC war. Very interesting stuff.

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Andy and jimmy Singapore, you two don’t know your elbows from your ________.

But you’ve got those childish talking points down pat!

And your fellow McCarthyite, the shameful Alan West, says hello from the unemployment line!

Keep up the good work, fellas.

You neoconnies are doing a heckuva job!

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“jimmy Singapore”

Sounds like the mafia wannabe weasel in a cheap B movie.

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dbm

November 19th, 2012
7:14 pm

What we really need is for enough people to understand that government is force and that this implies something about what government should and shouldn’t do. It’ll be a while yet before we get that.
———————————————————————————————————————————-
.
Most excellent.
. Have no fear.
Decent people are already getting it.
only about 33% of Americans voted for Romney/Obama.
That leaves 67% who have…………………put the evils of coercion behind them……and growing everyday.
.
Forward Liberty!
and the message of Ron Paul.

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And I apologize for frightening Bookman and his regular crew for mentioning Ron Paul…and the concept of Individual Liberty that he stands for.
.
Fed.gov will be around for a few more years.
You’ll be aight.

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look before…

sure, the transistor as we know it …out rates the printing press…i have nothing against edison, westinghouse, bell, or,franklin…but the modern transistor…and free domain…brilliant!

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@Sooth:

From the other direction:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlkaNTJBNTo&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlkaNTJBNTo&feature=related

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Jam

Maybe his name should be S Cube: Supply Side Singapore…….

he is going anywhere……… He will be back in the ATL if anything, drinking his rum punch with little umbrellas in them.

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Thomas

How is Alex Jones doing? Is he still telling you how Ron Paul is really leading the Republican primary?

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It seems to me that a lot of the youth impression of socialism is due to education and liberal leaning teachers…this in addition to dismal jobs outlook, student debt..etcetera not unlike those things suggested by OWS…of course in the end, they just wanted free stuff…

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It’s not “capitalism” anymore ……….. it’s “clausism”.

SANTA CLAUSISM !

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OOPS
@ 7:29
This one was Lloyd George, not Clemenceau

And on his contributions at Versailles..

“Not bad considering I was sitting between Jesus Christ and Napoleon.”.

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Bookman, your butt must have teeth because you are the first true talking a**hole. You hope capitalism is different to fit your socialist views!

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SINKWICH

“Some of us know reality when we see it.”

Not that you fall into that category

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0311/8541/5811/1811/1801

November 19th, 2012
7:30 pm

Classic!

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Headline: “DNC Chair on GOP: ‘They Got Whiter and More Male’… ”

Anyone want to guess the PERCENTAGE of “white and male” of all the soldiers, sailors, Marines and airmen who have fought and died in all of our nation’s wars ?

You know, the one’s who established and maintained this great country for you ?

My, how soon we forget.

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newkid – ah yes, Lenin. There was a compassionate communist. I see little difference in communism vs. capitalism. It just changes the wealthy class from the “selfish” capitalists and moves the wealth to the upper levels of the “party.” Either way, the everyday worker people get screwed.

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@moonbat betty

November 19th, 2012
7:27 pm
Still waiting (since 2006) for the dems to do something, ANYTHING, productive.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

WE DIDDDDDD SOMETHING PRODUCTIVE.

WE RE-ELECTED OBAMA.

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Growing old, if you think that was productive then you are part of the 47% who are not productive. Gee, what a surprise.

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““Some of us know reality when we see it.”

Not that you fall into that category”

Me? Certainly.

You? Not so much.

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BOTH, you’re right.

When it comes right down to it, all of our socialist Republicans love being in that 47%!

Even though this country and her people suck; just ask them!

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Reality, why don’t you explain how the economy should work. try to leave gays and abortion and liberal talking points out of your discrption. Please, shed some llight on your brilliance.

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The kids being born today come into the world with massive debt. Let them have socialism, they will be paying for it !

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What have the Democrats done lately? Really? If you need to ask this question, then you need to get your head out of your butt or at least turn off FOX News!

Try tracking down and killing Osama.

Try ending the multiple wars that Bush got us into (which contributed greatly to the great recession).

Try passing the Healthcare Reform Act which in a few years everyone will realize the tremendous lies used as scare tactics used by the sorry republicans.

Need I continue?

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Had to stop at “Like older Russians who mourned the collapse of the Soviet Union, older Americans also become emotionally invested in the system in which they’ve lived all their lives.”

Jay, do you know or have you known any elder people from Russia? Do you actually believe they “mourned” the fall of the Soviet Union?

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getalife, getabrain. This is obama’s mess from here on out. ACCOUNTABILITY. I used big letters to show you the proper spelling because God knows you could not spell it on your own.

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Getalife, crushed ? Is that why the repubs won the house by such a wide margin ? I am glad the kids like socialism, then they won’t whine when they are paying my Social Security.

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Jamvet, been on here many times. Where you been?

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Already answered that kamchak. Get in the game or get off the blog. I made one mistake today to your 10.

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“Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say ‘what should be the reward of such sacrifices?’ Bid us and our posterity bow the knee, supplicate the friendship and plough, and sow, and reap, to glut the avarice of the men who have let loose on us the dogs of war to riot in our blood and hunt us from the face of the earth? If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!”

Samuel Adams

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Is that why the repubs won the house by such a wide margin ?

Really?

I heard that they lost seats that were previously held by republicans.

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That’s great reality. Now tell us how the economy should work. Type slow so that we understand your genius.

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Some encouraging polling numbers, yep. I figured sooner or later I’d live to see a day when right-wingers weren’t going to be able to get away with conflating socialism with Stalinism; looks like we’re getting closer.

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KRAMER

“Jamvet, been on here many times. Where you been?”

Besides here?

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Headline: “Israel assassinates nearly 40 Hamas militants in six-day bombardment.”

Now THAT’S what you call “fire superiority” !!!

P.S.

Notice how the liberal news media likes to print that Israel “assassinates” but Obama “kills”.

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speaking of those Teutonix–I’m not sure why I didn’t realize this until now, but the Germans actually manufacturer a different Passat for us fatass ‘Mericans than the one they sell to the rest of the civilized world.

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Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

November 19th, 2012
7:31 pm

Absolutely the union participation is higher in Germany but these unions are not remotely confrontational…as race to the bottom as it were…the german unions can strike but rarely if ever do so as the culture of the unions is such that they are collaborative…US union labor culture combined with the lack of domestic protections for imports of competitors, are problematic…union rules here
Union rules and collective bargaining (etc) create perverse incentives and not only allow, but mandate waste and inefficiency this is a key reason why most of the us manufactured BMW’s etcetera give the US unions the finger…

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The future of the American experiment is as de Tocqueville described it as a young 20 something almost 200 years ago. Essentially, he said our success depended upon the continuing struggle between individual freedom and social equality. The ultimate advantage of either will place the republic as we know it at risk. This is why a strong, vibrant 2 party system is needed. If one or the other gains too much of an advantage, the essential struggle will falter to one side or the other.
This struggle is safer when the viewpoints are closer in thought. The recent polarization of the two has left a vacuum in the center.

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**Anyone want to guess the PERCENTAGE of “white and male” of all the soldiers, sailors, Marines and airmen who have fought and died in all of our nation’s wars ?**

I think thats the wrong question, they died for ALL americans, what a concept…

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Brosephus, you are kidding right?

Kidding about what? You’re the one who claimed that Obama had both houses in 2004. Therefore, the accountability of owning up to that ignorant assed statement belongs to you. Why would I be kidding about something when I wasn’t the one who allowed ignorance to flow like the waters from a mighty stream from my mouth (keyboard)?

By the way, SON, I am someone’s son, but you damned sure don’t have the intelligence necessary to produce a male offspring like me.

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SR

And not to count states with lower average wages. I am not begrudging BMW or any company from doing what they think they have to do, but what I wont do is sugar coat the reason.

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Do you really think that the bubble butt welfare queens and the illegal latinos actually care what the system is called? They could care less. Probably wouldn’t know the meaning of capitalism or socialism nor care what either of them stood for. It’s the government check, baby. Nothing else matters. Tis the season to be jolly. Noel, noel…. and all of that stuff. Just keep the money coming and we’ll vote for you even if you have two heads and molest little children.

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WELCOME

If it was you who suggested earlier that Roosevelt/Obama concept…brilliant..

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as usual, not “as usually”

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” …………….they died for ALL americans, what a concept… ”

Yes, even the ones too ignorant, flippant and arrogant to appreciate it.

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RC –

“I know I’m in my 60s and I still hope to be a millionaire. I only got about $989,000 to go and I’ll be there.”

HAR! LOL.

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Soon, the takers will outnumber the producers. It won’t be long before the incentive to produce will wane and those with ideas and solutions for future success will fade into oblivion. Why produce when you are forced at gun point to give a substantial portion of it away to some lazy dolt who doesn’t know the meaning of self reliance? And this is the new America?….. the new standard that we live by? All fostered by liberals who think that they have won something. They have won nothing but a fast demise of this once great country. And they don’t even have the sense to realize it.

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Du-k-sha-nee
First, you’ll have to convince me you come in peace…maybe a first meeting on neutral ground, say a county line juke joint…if your shtick plays there, then maybe…

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Soon, the takers will outnumber the producers. It won’t be long before the incentive to produce will wane and those with ideas and solutions for future success will fade into oblivion.

Oh my freaking God!!!!! Will we be subjected to this crap for four more years???

I don’t know of anybody who ever wished for destruction of the world, but if we’re gonna hear this for four more years, I think it’s time to start cheering for the Mayans….

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Welcome, 8:14,

“It’s no wonder they are so unpopular”…….. They don’t seem to be too unpopular to the Democratic politicians. SEIU good for 28M to get Bozo back into the WH. I imagine that they are quite popular with him.

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71, excellent strategy!

Use the exact same BS and made up nonsense that got you clobbered two weeks ago!

Americans are stupid, lazy takers! And the USA sucks and is going down the toilet.

Throw in a little slut, prostitute and Feminazis who want their birth control for free crappola and voila!

The winning recipe for 2016!

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Correct Jay the country is changing, the electorate just re-elected a western European type socialist for a second term. No need to do any further analysis….

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Bro, they’ve been stuck on stupid.

Now they are stuck on losing.

And I love it.

Oh and I also love their criminal-friendly “forced at gunpoint” meme, too.

Remember when Republicans didn’t detest law enforcement and they weren’t soft on crime?

I do…

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indigo, move your arse to europe and don’t let your shirt tail hit your arse on the way out. while you are at it there are millions you need to take with you. PLEASE ASAP!

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Jam

Dems are not much better and in some cases not any better, but considering the alternative and a percentage of those who express that alternative on this blog, the electorate made the right choice.

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Paul, you are clueless regarding the real issues here. Confiscate every dime of the rich and you won’t make a dent into the deficit. The economic collapse is directly attributable to the Community Reinvestment Act. There are numerous C-Span videos detailing the Congressional hesrings. If you, want to know the truth, do a Google search. Capitalism has provided us the world’s best. Visit socialist countries and compare. Why envy those that are economically successful?

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“Confiscate every dime of the rich and you won’t make a dent into the deficit. ”

And just who, exactly, has even proposed any such nonsense?

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My medical insurance increased $2500.00 last year? Why should I have to pay for others who have failed to be successful? We are going to see medical care rationed? Georgia is already projected to be short several thousand doctors circa 2020. As financial rewards decrease for medical professionals the more capable will find something else to pursue. Now, what will this do to the quality?

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The economic collapse is directly attributable to the Community Reinvestment Act.

Yawn.

Debunked here countless times.

Smarter trolls please.

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If you would like to see how bad things can really get, watch Channel 8 right now.

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Bookman, you are stupid i only wish i could live long enough to see your stupid aaaas suffer

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You got that right, Sooth.

I bet JamVet lived through the “Dust Bowl”. j/k JV.

Hard Times…

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“I know of one company which matches or exceeds the union contracts. The logic?”

My wife works for just such a company.
Think local and with wings…

The company spent enormous effort (and money) to keep her particular division from unionizing.
The result was better wages, work rules and benefits than seen by persons holding similar positions in competing companies. And a lot more harmonious working relationship. The company may or may not have saved any money by voluntarily matching union wages, but it was just easier.

She took it on the chin when the company had to go Chapter 11 a few years ago, but everybody did and the company emerged stronger and better for the process and she still has a job she loves.

I joke she will need to to work until 72, but the image of her moving down the aisle in a walker is worth the dirty looks I get.

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All I want for Christmas is a “Feminazi”.

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” i only wish i could live long enough to see your stupid aaaas suffer”

Death panel check on Jake 6304!

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-Americans aged 18-29 are deeply ambivalent about capitalism, while a slight plurality is supportive of socialism.

Today’s lazy kids want to live off the government and the sweat of others. Wow, never saw that one coming…

I guess the Democrat propoganda machine and indoctrination programs are working. The party of handouts wins again!

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Currently farmers are not practicing proper crop rotation and erosion control? Geez, I thought we figured that out?

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It is worse than i thunk

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No need to do any further analysis….

Nope, not when you are flailing around in the shallow end of the gene pool!

Excellent, JKL2!

Keep up the good work. Maybe you should run for the RNC chair!

But whatever, just keep on losing elections, OK?

betty, I just missed it! LOL.

I did watch that awesome PBS program last night though. I grew up near there and I know a thing or three about hard working, resilient Americans…

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kayaker- Soon, the takers will outnumber the producers

To fit into the Demwit utopian “new world order”, Americans are going to have to reduce their household income down to $14.4k. They forgot to tell all their welfare queens that compared with the rest of the world, They are actually the evil rich that need to start paying their fare share.

Bring on the pain.

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look- Obama has an opportunity to lead now that he does not have to worry about re-election.

If you’re in the golf course industry you’re in luck. The rest of the country, not somuch…

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If you’re in the golf course industry you’re in luck.

“Now, Watch This Drive!”

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Did you cons say something?

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look- If today’s kids are lazy, who exactly is to blame for that?

I like to go with a lack of morals and single parents households.

Let the racist comments fly….

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Josef, Stevie Ray; German unions have actual rights of co-determination in German corporate structure, actual rights, this being enshrined in corporate governance law in that country. Every corporation over 500 workers must have labor representation on the company’s board.

Sounds amazing, doesn’t it, compared to the US situation.

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This is what I hear when a con speaks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04

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getalife, how about when a con slaps you up side the head?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI6LYzWZYcc

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I think Lindsey Graham was really onto something. The GOP might be wise to take his statement about running out of angry old White men for what it’s worth…

http://www.hispanicvoters2012.com/

More than 6 out of every 10 Hispanics in America were born in the U.S.

This is America’s Changing Electorate. Every month for the next two decades, 50,000 Hispanics will turn 18.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xIQmFk1ok0

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Oh an in addition…SCHOOL
B’s acceptable but not met with applause, C”s with outright disdain.
A’s got us cupcakes.

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moonbat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEL_UWbeNX0

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Now don’t go all postal on us, GOPers.

It’s not the country’s fault that you chose a candidate who was wholly unfit to lead.

Fortunately the citizens of this country are smart enough to realize that (ROCK ON USA!) and sent him back to the Cayman Islands or wherever it is that he hides his money.

Watching George Macaca Allen go down in flames was just an added bonus…

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kayaker

“Do you really think that the bubble butt welfare queens and the illegal latinos actually care what the system is called? They could care less. Probably wouldn’t know the meaning of capitalism or socialism nor care what either of them stood for. It’s the government check, baby. Nothing else matters. Tis the season to be jolly. Noel, noel…. and all of that stuff. Just keep the money coming and we’ll vote for you even if you have two heads and molest little children.”

If I’ve ever seen a more bigoted statement on these boards, I can’t remember it.
That’s saying a lot.

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YouLibs: 9:43: Yep.

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look- Oh an in addition…SCHOOL

My daughter came home with a C because she hadn’t been turning in her homework (the lowest grade she’s ever had is a 97). We pulled her cable box and turned off the wifi for a week.

Besides learning her lesson, my son is now checking to make sure she is getting her homework done. It’s amaizing what a communication blackout does to the younger generation.

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One reason we’re in such a mess now is that we had protective tariffs for a long time. (Startimg before the Civil War.) That got us used to our companies being able to charge more than a true free market would allow. When we finally gave that up, it felt like an awful squeeze.

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jamvet- It’s not the country’s fault that you chose a candidate who was wholly unfit to lead

obama says,”What”

Can’t wait for four more years of “It’s Bush’s fault”. That solves everything…

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LOL – generational differences.

We did not have cable, wii, wifi, cell phones.
We did not have TV’s in our rooms and there were 2 phones in the house, the kitchen and my mom’s bedroom.

My younger brother brought home an “F” in his civics class one quarter. He was an A/B student and capable but hated his teacher. I totally got that he did not like the guy as I had had him in the same class a couple of years before, thought he was a jack@ss.

My mom went postal – banned him from baseball AND TV for a year.
It worked though, he graduated 2nd in his class, went to VMI on a scholarship.

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rush is a mole.

Lib secret weapon.

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And I can’t wait for four more years of George Who???

I tried to warn you; I wrote repeatedly that Flip would be lucky to get 200 EC votes.

I also wrote that he would not win Florida. I was wrong about a couple of the toss up states. I thought he might win a couple of them. Instead of ZERO!

OUCH!

Own up to it – your anti-working class (Americans are stupid and lazy takers), anti-environment, pro-corporatocracy ideology of intolerance and intransigence is not gonna hack it anymore.

Not in this country. Probably never again.

Occupy that…

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obama says,”What”

Elmer Fudd says, “What?”

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All this banter is entertainment – but not much more than that. We are all pawns in the system. Obama is only where he is because the powers that be (Pelosi, Reid etc.) realized that Obama’s appeal could help them advance the machine’s agenda. Obama can’t fix this. Romney and the whole damn lot of right wing republicans can’t fix this. Fact is – we are on our way to a different America. The middle class isn’t coming back (at least back to what it was before) and we will not get out of the load of debt we have accumulated. The rich wont suffer even when we tax the s–t out of them. They don’t care really – the have out run this and will use their wealth and privilege to minimize their exposure any way. Just ask Warren Buffet. He sides with Obama because to him and his friends – it doesn’t matter. The rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer. Life will go on – it will just be different. It is a great and wonderful thing that the young people today despise capitalism and loathe the wealthy – because they have not a snowball’s chance in hell of ever really joining their ranks anyway. Welcome to the revolution!!!

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Hey, Youlibs.

The regular Bigot here is named Redneck Convert, I’m sure you would be a big fan like the others.

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youlibs- I don’t want to be an alarmist, but your daughter MAY be associating with liberals. What else could possibly explain this?

All part of the indoctrination process. We try to teach her not everyone is entitled to a juice box and a participation ribbon. Unfortunately she is surrounded by negative examples and someone of her intelligience still falls victim on occasion.

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jamvet- You frauds are gonna have to learn the hard way…

reap what you sow obama fans.

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“Yeah, I’m pretty green, but it doesn’t take too long to notice who the hair on fire bigots are”

It’s not the hair on fire bigots you have to worry about.
It’s the closet racists who hide behind semantics that are the problem.
They (as most of the regulars here) know who they are.

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We are indeed entering a post-capitalism era and the party of Bookman is leading the way. And 90% of Republicans are headed the same way albeit at a slightly slower pace.

The comment you made really missed the mark: “There’s no doubt some truth to that, in part because as people get older, they acquire more wealth and want to protect it.”

May I suggest an alternative explanation: Older people are more experienced; therefore they are smarter. Would you want a 32 year-old surgeon to perform a quadruple bypass operation on you?

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“Older people are more experienced; therefore they are smarter. Would you want a 32 year-old surgeon to perform a quadruple bypass operation on you?”

Syllogism alert!!!!!!

Older people are older.
Age and experience are not equivalent.

If the 32 yr old had the requisite training, then I would be fine with him handling the scalpel.
In fact, I would prefer him over a 65 yr old with failing eyesight, jittery hands and a possible drinking problem who had 2 thousand procedures under his belt and thought I was just a routine case.

The youngsters just entering a difficult discipline have two major advantages:
They have access to more recent learning and innovation
They have to concentrate harder simply because it is less familiar territory in order to avoid screwing up.

I had knee surgery a few years back.
If it goes well, I am back in action walking, cycling, playing tennis, golf and doing the things I enjoy.
It goes badly, I am on crutches, a walker and possibly a wheelchair.

The surgeon was about 38 yrs old. Smart, funny and confident. Works on a lot of the Braves and Falcon’s players. Re-assured me that it was routine and everything would come out fine.

I thanked him and then said: “Do me a favor, huh? Please pretend this is the FIRST time you have ever done this.”

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America is not dead but the left is working hard to fix that “problem”

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Who is John Galt?

A creation from the fevered imagination of a well known methamphetamine addict.

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look- Thanks for the response but I am disappointed in you.
No details, no facts, no citations

This was my fourth time voting against obama. He is a Chicago crook run by other crooks. If there was any justice in the world, he would be sharing a bunk bed with Blagojevich in Englewood right now.

Outside of that he wants to “radically transform” America. (That would be points 3 and 4 you were blaming on the GOP.) The best thing we have going for us is obama complete lack of leadership ability.

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A creation from the fevered imagination of a well known methamphetamine addict…………who just so happened to outline with perfect clarity what happens when the collective, or second handlers if you will, capture the ability to plunder. I would suggest Kumchak, that you have either not ever even read Ayn Rand, or have, and are guilty as charged. Who is John Galt?

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“America is not dead but the left is working hard to fix that “problem””

How so? The left is, so far, the only side adjusting to the changing demographics and expectations. Look at how the vote fell among quickly growing populations and compare that to the aging white population that isn’t growing at the same rate. Even some of your own “leaders” are realizing they screwed the pooch with hispanic/latino voters, black voters, and the young. The left was smart to be inclusive and attentive to their concerns. The only thing the right is fixing right now is its place in the history books if it doesn’t learn, and fast.

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“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
― Thomas “John Rogers” Jefferson

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And graduate to Marx? Other than your sharp wit, character assasination, and obvious vast intellectual maturity, what is your belief? Who is John Galt?

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RF- So are you one of those who got away with voting in two different places in the last two elections?

No, I’m not a GA resident.

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Interesting. The sampling universe was 1521 adults, 18+. Jay, of course, conveniently leaves out some of other empiric context for the sake of argument, which really lists little change in sentiment overall. The entire survey can be found here:

http://www.people-press.org/2011/12/28/little-change-in-publics-response-to-capitalism-socialism/

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“Liberalism: Not going to be happy until everyone is as miserable as we are!”

We’re pretty happy these days…seems you guys are chomping on the bitter pills. If you think about it, generally liberals do a pretty good job of making people happy- and without all the nefarious “gifts” your guy so adamantly blames for his loss. In fact, it was a liberal who got us a balanced budget with a surplus, welfare reform, and two terms without a costly war to speak of. As I recall, the whole country was pretty happy during those days…

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“Liberalism: Not going to be happy until everyone is as miserable as we are! ”

PSHAW!

Conservatism: They are coming for your stuff! (aka, Not going to be happy until everyone lives in abject fear)

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Craig: those individuals were lucky enough to live in a middle class community where they had the opportunity to work in their parents’ garages and their parents could pay the bills. They were lucky enough to live in a country where society, TOGETHER, pays for law enforcement and education so they could learn how to build it and do so in a safe environment where they didn’t have to worry about missiles blowing them to dust. They were lucky enough to live under a constitution that believes in “the general welfare” and the notion that everyone works to build the society so that individuals can indeed thrive. They were lucky to live in a country that encourages individual entrepreneurs and supports them with public services like roads, power, water, etc. They were lucky enough to live in a country that believes everyone, regardless of race, gender, religion, or lifestyle deserves the same access to opportunities to learn and participate in governing of the country instead of some despotic dicatatorship bent on destroying individual liberty.

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look- What you got?

http://www.suntimes.com/business/savage/7069692-452/as-debt-crisis-looms-at-state-level-illinois-identified-as-a-sinkhole.html

http://www.creditloan.com/infographics/a-state-by-state-comparison-of-debt/

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“But after 1989, with its competitor vanquished, capitalism in effect began to exert its monopoly power. It became rougher, less paternal and more aggressive. If income for the already wealthy soared while the pay of working class Americans stagnated or even declined, well, too bad.”
==============================================

As an extension the thought within my 5:25 pm post, “this less paternal and more aggressive” form of capitalism has been the direct result of the concentrated effort, since the mid-1970s, of wealthy CEO’s of some corporations joined with Republican members of Congress and state legislatures to create a more unbridled, harsher captitalism, with its inherent hierarchical vision of gain for those at the financial top, at the expense of the middle/working classes.

Americans under 30 have witnessed this growing plutocracy in America for most of their lives, and they have rejected that harsher form of capitalism in favor of the more humane version of capitalism that is being espoused and implemented by Barack Obama, i.e. Obamacare. This is why the under 30 crowd overwhelmingly voted for President Obama’s re-election, not because he offered them more governmental “gifts” – as only Republicans such as Mitt Romney might perceive with a more limited vision – but because these young people identify more with Obama’s egalitiarian vision of humanity instead of the hierarchial vision being perpetuated by these Republicans. These young people have realized that the world has already begun moving toward a more egalitarian vision, and away from an outdated hierarchial vision of humanity.
——————————————————————————————–

From “Mary Elizabeth Sings,” entry entitled “The Growing Egalitarianism. . .”

“However, the ability to capture the imaginations of others is no easy accomplishment. To many, Barack Obama has that same gift that Kennedy had – the ability to inspire others and to forge his vision into the nation’s collective consciousness. Perhaps, Obama is setting the stage for a changed America, and a changed world, in this century. Perhaps, the Nobel Peace Prize Committee saw that dynamic force within him – already in movement – beyond the deeds that would fall, thereafter, as a result of the change in consciousness, precipitated by, in part, by him.

And, Obama’s vision is an egalitarian vision, the same vision that Jefferson’s mind encompassed.”
———————————————————————————–

http://maryelizabethsings.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/the-growing-egalitarianism-14-2/

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Welcome, 5:16 pm

“Our grandparents’ generation had Roosevelt, who saved capitalism from itself at its earlier moment of greatest crisis.

We have Barack Obama, the ultimate of appeaser of capitalism and enabler of some of its absolute worst tendencies.

And that is our tragedy.”
———————————————————————

Welcome, I agree with you about Roosevelt’s having saved capitalism from its worst elements in his day; however, I disagree with you about Obama’s being an “enabler of its (capitalism’s) absolute worst tendencies.”

From the graph, above, we know that the young adults under 30, today, have approximately an equal like and dislike of capitalism and of socialism, unlike older American’s who support capitalism handily over socialism.

Since today’s young adults in America are greater advocates of a balance between socialism and capitalism, more so than are older Americans, then, if they perceived Obama to be “an enabler of the abolute worst elements in capitalism,” as you do, then I do not believe that these young adults would have voted for Obama in the large numbers that they did in the last two presidential elections.

I believe that, unlike your thinking, the young adults of today see President Obama’s egalitarian vision as containing the better elements of both capitalism and socialism, in balance with one another. Through that balance, Obama has a vision of capitalism which more similar to that of FDR’s vision of capitalism than the more brutal vision of capitalism perpetuated by top CEOs since the mid-1970s – which Obama has been trying to overturn. The young adults of today have evidently approved of Obama’s attempt to overturn that more brutal capitalism for a more humane capitalism, as seen through the large numbers of those Americans under 30 who cast their votes for him.

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mornin’.

Good news about that crafts-store chain countless Americans have already told to eff off:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/20/usa-healthcare-oklahoma-court-idUSL1E8MK12E20121120

A U.S. federal judge on Monday denied a legal challenge to President Barack Obama’s signature health reforms, ruling that the owners of a $3 billion arts and crafts chain must provide emergency contraceptives in their group health care plan.

Heaton ruled that while individual members of the family that owns and operates Hobby Lobby have religious rights, the companies the family owns are secular, for-profit enterprises that do not possess the same rights.

Why any business would actively work to alienate more than half of its customer base like that is beyond me.

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makes you wonder:

http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/did-anonymous-stop-rove-stealing-elec

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decibels…….why should anyone expect someone else pay for what they can provide or do for themselves? Why should someone be forced to finance good or bad personal decisions? Are contraceptives produced and sold at a profit? Is that morally right?

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Whenever a someone in the group repeats platitudes about egalitarianism I think of *Animal Farm* and get just a little nervous–but then –is that the rumble of the tumbrels I hear? mon Dieu! I’m outta here.

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“From each according to his ability, to each according to his need”

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The left’s propaganda is working………..you can see it now

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Comrades : I feel as if I just read Bookman’s manifesto.

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Well, sure has been great reading the great republican freakout, as if obama were socialism incarnate, where has the congress been while all this transformation happened? Medicare part D anyone? Who was president at that time? It’s the silliest garbage ever strewn together, however, the comic relief has been priceless!!!

Donovan, where art thou? Hope you didn’t commit hari kari…

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Hope you didn’t commit hari kari…

a.k.a. “self-deportation.”

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Mick

That freakout kinda resembled this….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZzTpjh-NsQ

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Is this lazy younger generation the same one dieing in the Bush wars?

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Republicans are strong believers in socialism if it will buy them votes and allow them to get rich off of the federal government. If you accept that fact of of our political life then you will begin to realize that socialism means whatever the GOP and their media mouthpieces want to throw at the Democrats at the moment. just look at Reagan’s unfunded mandate ffor free emergency room care paid for by those who have insurance and government funding. Then when Obama passes mandatory insurance coverage for the uninsured who can afford to pay as well as universal employer coverage so emergency room and other health care gets funded, the cons call it socialism. And unfunded Medicare drugs passed by the GOP-what is that?

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@jamvet, I don’t thhink you’ve changed your tune in the last 2 weeks, are you just bored or so narrow minded;virtually everyone else has moved to the discussion at hand.You are living in the past. Mabye this election has given your life some type of new meaning, I don’t know but your like a groaning scratched record…Yes, of course I don’t have to read your input and perhaps I will now stop, but that does not change your insistent repitition…..

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There’s another take on this Dec. 2011 poll and more recent polling, and what it means, that some here might want to dig into:

http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/18/is-rush-limbaughs-country-gone/

Much of the focus in the media in recent years has been on the growing hard-line stance of the Republican Party. At the same time, there are significant developments taking place as a new left alliance forms to underpin the Democratic Party. John Judis and Ruy Teixeira originally described this alliance in 2002 as the emerging Democratic majority in a pioneering book of the same name. More recently, the pollster Stan Greenberg and a group of liberal activists have described it as the “rising American electorate.”

As Obama negotiates with Republican House and Senate leaders to prevent a dive over the “fiscal cliff,” he will be under strong pressure from his reinvigorated liberal supporters to take a tough stand in support of tax hikes on the well-to-do and to more firmly limit spending cuts.

as to that last point–I certainly hope so, anyway.

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Where is USMC?

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@fair, yea that 1 example is fully supportive of the concept of republican socialism…Yea,,make sense to me…sheesh…..Wow that WAS impressive, ..took you how many months to come up with that, worn out “goggle” have you……

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fair and balanced

November 20th, 2012
7:51 am

The Republicans are getting no more richer than the DEMS under our dysfunctional system. The GOP, especially with a weak candidate like Romney, will definitely say anything to get votes just as BO did in 2008.

The ACA does many thinks right but financially for taxpayers, it will be a collosal bust. The large hospital operators threw billions at DEMS to have the law favor them collecting the previously uncollectable revenue…often as much as 20% of total annual revenue…

By getting in bed with the enemies (insurers and large hospital operators), PelosiCare will result in increased costs by many, and zero savings due to the political power of those (physicians) they are trying to screw..

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A greater awareness of what is really meant by the two concepts will no doubt amplify this trend.

Being controlled by another’s wealth is no more desirable than being controlled by their gun.

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education plans that never offer any returns…

like what–an ecologically friendly 99-dollar jetpack brought to market?

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