The future of capitalism will not look like its past

Last December, the Pew Research Center released a poll in which it attempted to gauge American perceptions of capitalism and socialism. Here’s what it found, broken down by age group:

cap:soc1
cap:soc2

The generational differences reflected in those numbers are stark. Americans aged 18-29 are deeply ambivalent about capitalism, while a slight plurality is supportive of socialism. Their grandparents, on the other hand, offer a mirror-image reversal, reporting an overwhelmingly negative view of socialism and a generally positive attitude toward capitalism.

There are many ways to interpret numbers like that, the most obvious being the Churchillian observation that people tend to grow more conservative as they get older. There’s no doubt some truth to that, in part because as people get older, they acquire more wealth and want to protect it. Like older Russians who mourned the collapse of the Soviet Union, older Americans also become emotionally invested in the system in which they’ve lived all their lives.

However, I suspect there’s also something deeper at work in those poll numbers, something that reflects the different historical experience of the age groups in question. And that difference will influence public policy debates in this country in profound ways over the next three decades.

Today, younger Americans have no cultural memory of the Cold War, an era in which American capitalism was in existential conflict with Soviet communism and its softer, more rational cousin, socialism. Unlike older Americans, they were not raised in a world that divided itself along that particular fault line. Framed in a more conservative way, younger Americans have little direct, first-hand experience with socialism. They are, you might say, naive about its drawbacks.

The dividing line between those worlds would of course be 1989, when the Berlin Wall collapsed. Today, Americans who are 40 or younger have lived all of their adult lives in a world in which communism was no longer a grave threat to capitalism. And that’s important, because the basic insight of capitalism — competition is good because it drives people and organizations to do better — applies to political ideologies just as well as it applies to football teams or individuals.

In this case, as long as communism existed as a realistic alternative, capitalism and its defenders had to mute its harsher aspects to make it more appealing. They had to “deliver the goods” of a broad middle class, with a division of the economic pie that would be judged by both insiders and outsiders as fair and just. Otherwise, they would be handing ammunition to their ideological enemies, who depicted capitalism as a brutish, winner-take-all system.

But after 1989, with its competitor vanquished, capitalism in effect began to exert its monopoly power. It became rougher, less paternal and more aggressive. If income for the already wealthy soared while the pay of working class Americans stagnated or even declined, well, too bad. It was justified as Darwinian justice, a form of justice much different from the concept of economic justice that had been in effect prior to 1989.

Today, when younger Americans think of capitalism, this is the system that comes to mind. Their parents and grandparents experienced it as a system that produces great prosperity; in their own lives, they have seen capitalism produce something much less appealing. The fact that the collapse of 2008 was driven largely by Wall Street excess, and that most of those who engaged in that excess have escaped serious consequence, only compounds the image problem.

I’m not trying to argue that we’re now entering some kind of post-capitalist era, because whatever its disadvantages, capitalism still beats every other system known to man. But it will have to be a form of capitalism that fits the needs of its time, and it will be molded by generations that have different expectations and understandings. Capitalism is not a static concept; it must live by its own rules, which means that it will adapt or it will fall.

– Jay Bookman

527 comments Add your comment

Welcome to the Occupation

November 19th, 2012
9:46 pm

YouLibs: 9:43: Yep.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

November 19th, 2012
9:47 pm

Last year retailers began holiday shopping at 12:00 midnight on Thanksgiving.

Toys R Us is opening doors at 8:00 pm Thanksgiving night.

Capitalism dead?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

JKL2

November 19th, 2012
9:47 pm

look- Oh an in addition…SCHOOL

My daughter came home with a C because she hadn’t been turning in her homework (the lowest grade she’s ever had is a 97). We pulled her cable box and turned off the wifi for a week.

Besides learning her lesson, my son is now checking to make sure she is getting her homework done. It’s amaizing what a communication blackout does to the younger generation.

Tanner G

November 19th, 2012
9:48 pm

Enter your comments here

dbm

November 19th, 2012
9:50 pm

One reason we’re in such a mess now is that we had protective tariffs for a long time. (Startimg before the Civil War.) That got us used to our companies being able to charge more than a true free market would allow. When we finally gave that up, it felt like an awful squeeze.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

November 19th, 2012
9:50 pm

Enter your comments anywhere else but here

JKL2

November 19th, 2012
9:51 pm

jamvet- It’s not the country’s fault that you chose a candidate who was wholly unfit to lead

obama says,”What”

Can’t wait for four more years of “It’s Bush’s fault”. That solves everything…

JamVet

November 19th, 2012
9:52 pm

Yes, Minnesota Michelle did remain in office. Barely.

But along with Tailgunner Alan McCarthy-West, the disgusting Joe Walsh, Todd Akin and Tim Mourdoch all got kicked to the curb as well.

The last two, the direct result of the GOP’s Glorious and Successful War on Women. (Thank you Rush Limbaugh.)

All in all, things could not have gone much better on November 6th, as the Tea Party element of the GOP really paid dividends this time…

Look before I leap...

November 19th, 2012
9:54 pm

LOL – generational differences.

We did not have cable, wii, wifi, cell phones.
We did not have TV’s in our rooms and there were 2 phones in the house, the kitchen and my mom’s bedroom.

My younger brother brought home an “F” in his civics class one quarter. He was an A/B student and capable but hated his teacher. I totally got that he did not like the guy as I had had him in the same class a couple of years before, thought he was a jack@ss.

My mom went postal – banned him from baseball AND TV for a year.
It worked though, he graduated 2nd in his class, went to VMI on a scholarship.

Brosephus™

November 19th, 2012
9:55 pm

YouLibs @ 9:43

That post from kayaker was nothing. If that’s the most bigoted thing you’ve seen here, then you must be new to the AJC website.

getalife

November 19th, 2012
9:55 pm

rush is a mole.

Lib secret weapon.

moonbat betty

November 19th, 2012
9:58 pm

I think what Jay Bookman has been trying to say is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDZFf0pm0SE

JamVet

November 19th, 2012
9:59 pm

And I can’t wait for four more years of George Who???

I tried to warn you; I wrote repeatedly that Flip would be lucky to get 200 EC votes.

I also wrote that he would not win Florida. I was wrong about a couple of the toss up states. I thought he might win a couple of them. Instead of ZERO!

OUCH!

Own up to it – your anti-working class (Americans are stupid and lazy takers), anti-environment, pro-corporatocracy ideology of intolerance and intransigence is not gonna hack it anymore.

Not in this country. Probably never again.

Occupy that…

Look before I leap...

November 19th, 2012
9:59 pm

“as the Tea Party element of the GOP really paid dividends this time…”

Um…no.
The Tea Party OWES dividends, but won’t ever be able to repay them unless they acknowledge the need for revenue enhancements.

Kamchak - You cons said Elmer Fudd could defeat Obama, so why didn't you nominate him?

November 19th, 2012
10:00 pm

obama says,”What”

Elmer Fudd says, “What?”

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

YouLibs

November 19th, 2012
10:01 pm

JKL2

I don’t want to be an alarmist, but your daughter MAY be associating with liberals. What else could possibly explain this?

As you have frequently pointed out here, everything is the fault of liberals.

Tanner G

November 19th, 2012
10:01 pm

All this banter is entertainment – but not much more than that. We are all pawns in the system. Obama is only where he is because the powers that be (Pelosi, Reid etc.) realized that Obama’s appeal could help them advance the machine’s agenda. Obama can’t fix this. Romney and the whole damn lot of right wing republicans can’t fix this. Fact is – we are on our way to a different America. The middle class isn’t coming back (at least back to what it was before) and we will not get out of the load of debt we have accumulated. The rich wont suffer even when we tax the s–t out of them. They don’t care really – the have out run this and will use their wealth and privilege to minimize their exposure any way. Just ask Warren Buffet. He sides with Obama because to him and his friends – it doesn’t matter. The rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer. Life will go on – it will just be different. It is a great and wonderful thing that the young people today despise capitalism and loathe the wealthy – because they have not a snowball’s chance in hell of ever really joining their ranks anyway. Welcome to the revolution!!!

YouLibs

November 19th, 2012
10:04 pm

Bro @ 9:55

Yeah, I’m pretty green, but it doesn’t take too long to notice who the hair on fire bigots are.

moonbat betty

November 19th, 2012
10:10 pm

Hey, Youlibs.

The regular Bigot here is named Redneck Convert, I’m sure you would be a big fan like the others.

JKL2

November 19th, 2012
10:14 pm

jamvet- Own up to it – your anti-working class (Americans are stupid and lazy takers), anti-environment, pro-corporatocracy ideology of intolerance and intransigence is not gonna hack it anymore

Translation: the 47% and party of handouts wins. Now where are my bama bucks…

JKL2

November 19th, 2012
10:18 pm

youlibs- I don’t want to be an alarmist, but your daughter MAY be associating with liberals. What else could possibly explain this?

All part of the indoctrination process. We try to teach her not everyone is entitled to a juice box and a participation ribbon. Unfortunately she is surrounded by negative examples and someone of her intelligience still falls victim on occasion.

JamVet

November 19th, 2012
10:22 pm

Translation: the 47% and party of handouts wins.

2, you are a non-Republican’s wet dream come true. (Maybe like Rush, you too are a mole and a lib’s secret weapon.)

You frauds are gonna have to learn the hard way…

JKL2

November 19th, 2012
10:25 pm

jamvet- You frauds are gonna have to learn the hard way…

reap what you sow obama fans.

Look before I leap...

November 19th, 2012
10:25 pm

Ya know, I have not been on this particular blog for very long.
I remember some whining from the left in 2000 and 2004 and some grumbling from the right in 2008.

But the level of hysterical, “chicken-little” handwringing from the cons right now is totally baffling to me.
Secession!
We’re doomed!
The end of the US as we know it!
R.I.P. America!

Baloney! I find Obama wanting in many regards. And I have concerns about Obamacare.
But, in the 4 years that Obama has been President:
The DJI, after losing nearly 50% of its value has recovered to near pre-recession levels. Ditto for the S&P and Nasdaq is trading ABOVE it’s pre-recessionary levels.

Unemployment has declined and we are seeing signs of recovery in the housing market, although spotty.

GDP growth continues on an upward trajectory and except for the attack on Benghazi, no one has mounted a successful attack on us outside of a combat theatre.

So, to the handwringers, WHAT exactly is your beef with Obama and why do you think his re-election will bring down the US?

Fox and Rush/Hannity sock-puppetry are strongly discouraged.

Look before I leap...

November 19th, 2012
10:28 pm

“Yeah, I’m pretty green, but it doesn’t take too long to notice who the hair on fire bigots are”

It’s not the hair on fire bigots you have to worry about.
It’s the closet racists who hide behind semantics that are the problem.
They (as most of the regulars here) know who they are.

JKL2

November 19th, 2012
10:30 pm

look- But the level of hysterical, “chicken-little” handwringing from the cons right now is totally baffling to me.

Secession!- Crazy talk. I don’t get it either.
We’re doomed!- high probability, I would argue fact at this point
The end of the US as we know it!- obama platform
R.I.P. America!- obama platform

RGB

November 19th, 2012
10:33 pm

We are indeed entering a post-capitalism era and the party of Bookman is leading the way. And 90% of Republicans are headed the same way albeit at a slightly slower pace.

The comment you made really missed the mark: “There’s no doubt some truth to that, in part because as people get older, they acquire more wealth and want to protect it.”

May I suggest an alternative explanation: Older people are more experienced; therefore they are smarter. Would you want a 32 year-old surgeon to perform a quadruple bypass operation on you?

getalife

November 19th, 2012
10:45 pm

America is not dead but the right is.

Look before I leap...

November 19th, 2012
10:47 pm

“Older people are more experienced; therefore they are smarter. Would you want a 32 year-old surgeon to perform a quadruple bypass operation on you?”

Syllogism alert!!!!!!

Older people are older.
Age and experience are not equivalent.

If the 32 yr old had the requisite training, then I would be fine with him handling the scalpel.
In fact, I would prefer him over a 65 yr old with failing eyesight, jittery hands and a possible drinking problem who had 2 thousand procedures under his belt and thought I was just a routine case.

The youngsters just entering a difficult discipline have two major advantages:
They have access to more recent learning and innovation
They have to concentrate harder simply because it is less familiar territory in order to avoid screwing up.

I had knee surgery a few years back.
If it goes well, I am back in action walking, cycling, playing tennis, golf and doing the things I enjoy.
It goes badly, I am on crutches, a walker and possibly a wheelchair.

The surgeon was about 38 yrs old. Smart, funny and confident. Works on a lot of the Braves and Falcon’s players. Re-assured me that it was routine and everything would come out fine.

I thanked him and then said: “Do me a favor, huh? Please pretend this is the FIRST time you have ever done this.”

Look before I leap...

November 19th, 2012
10:49 pm

@JKL2

Thanks for the response but I am disappointed in you.
No details, no facts, no citations.

My bad, I had you confused with someone who had a clue.

JKL2

November 19th, 2012
10:58 pm

America is not dead but the left is working hard to fix that “problem”

JDawg

November 19th, 2012
10:58 pm

Who is John Galt?

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

November 19th, 2012
11:04 pm

Who is John Galt?

A creation from the fevered imagination of a well known methamphetamine addict.

zeke

November 19th, 2012
11:05 pm

Yes, Jay, and, that is why the fatal diseases of liberalism, socialism, progressives and communism must be cured! OR WE DIE AS A VIABLE NATION! See Cuba, USSR, N. Korea, Venezuela, China and socialist Europe as examples!

JKL2

November 19th, 2012
11:06 pm

look- Thanks for the response but I am disappointed in you.
No details, no facts, no citations

This was my fourth time voting against obama. He is a Chicago crook run by other crooks. If there was any justice in the world, he would be sharing a bunk bed with Blagojevich in Englewood right now.

Outside of that he wants to “radically transform” America. (That would be points 3 and 4 you were blaming on the GOP.) The best thing we have going for us is obama complete lack of leadership ability.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

November 19th, 2012
11:08 pm

This was my fourth time voting against obama.

So, you’re a 4 time loser.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

JDawg

November 19th, 2012
11:16 pm

A creation from the fevered imagination of a well known methamphetamine addict…………who just so happened to outline with perfect clarity what happens when the collective, or second handlers if you will, capture the ability to plunder. I would suggest Kumchak, that you have either not ever even read Ayn Rand, or have, and are guilty as charged. Who is John Galt?

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

November 19th, 2012
11:19 pm

I would suggest Kumchak, that you have either not ever even read Ayn Rand…

I read We The Living, Anthem, The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged all before the age of seventeen, sport.

Then I put away childish things.

I would suggest you finally do so to.

RF

November 19th, 2012
11:22 pm

“America is not dead but the left is working hard to fix that “problem””

How so? The left is, so far, the only side adjusting to the changing demographics and expectations. Look at how the vote fell among quickly growing populations and compare that to the aging white population that isn’t growing at the same rate. Even some of your own “leaders” are realizing they screwed the pooch with hispanic/latino voters, black voters, and the young. The left was smart to be inclusive and attentive to their concerns. The only thing the right is fixing right now is its place in the history books if it doesn’t learn, and fast.

Look before I leap...

November 19th, 2012
11:22 pm

“This was my fourth time voting against obama. He is a Chicago crook run by other crooks”

Yet Chicago is still there, IL is still there and the US is still here.

You should stop reading Kesler – he is doing bad things to your brain.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

November 19th, 2012
11:23 pm

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
― Thomas “John Rogers” Jefferson

RF

November 19th, 2012
11:25 pm

“This was my fourth time voting against obama”

So are you one of those who got away with voting in two different places in the last two elections?

Advice: avoid poker games, or at least learn not to bet on a pair of two’s when there are wild cards on the table.

JDawg

November 19th, 2012
11:28 pm

And graduate to Marx? Other than your sharp wit, character assasination, and obvious vast intellectual maturity, what is your belief? Who is John Galt?

JKL2

November 19th, 2012
11:32 pm

kamchak- So, you’re a 4 time loser.

Along with the rest of the state of IL.

The 47% and party of handouts win again…

JKL2

November 19th, 2012
11:33 pm

RF- So are you one of those who got away with voting in two different places in the last two elections?

No, I’m not a GA resident.

JKL2

November 19th, 2012
11:37 pm

look- Yet Chicago is still there, IL is still there and the US is still here

Working on becoming the murder capital of the US while passing CA as the most fiscally irresponsible state in the country. A formula to be immulated throughout the country!

Liberalism: Not going to be happy until everyone is as miserable as we are!

Bring on the pain.

Elections Have Consequences

November 19th, 2012
11:39 pm

Interesting. The sampling universe was 1521 adults, 18+. Jay, of course, conveniently leaves out some of other empiric context for the sake of argument, which really lists little change in sentiment overall. The entire survey can be found here:

http://www.people-press.org/2011/12/28/little-change-in-publics-response-to-capitalism-socialism/

Look before I leap...

November 19th, 2012
11:43 pm

@JKL2

IL #6 in US in net tax contribution per capita
#10 in revenue/capita

They must be doing something right – because from either viewpoint, they produce and they contribute.

What you got?

RF

November 19th, 2012
11:44 pm

“Liberalism: Not going to be happy until everyone is as miserable as we are!”

We’re pretty happy these days…seems you guys are chomping on the bitter pills. If you think about it, generally liberals do a pretty good job of making people happy- and without all the nefarious “gifts” your guy so adamantly blames for his loss. In fact, it was a liberal who got us a balanced budget with a surplus, welfare reform, and two terms without a costly war to speak of. As I recall, the whole country was pretty happy during those days…

Craig

November 19th, 2012
11:49 pm

Well Randy 2 guys in California founded Apple Computer by building a personal computer in their parents garage all by themselves without any help from their “community”: Shame on you for believing in that entitlement groupspeak crap that the government schools have been feeding you all these years. We are a nation of individuals who act in their own self interest and that is what made us great and prosperous. Nobody owes you or anybody else squat. The only alegience we should have should be to the Constitution which through the rule of law guarantees the rights of INDIVIDUALS, not balkanized groups. Our laws protect the individual from the tyranny of the mob and from the government if it becomes unwilling or unable to protect the rights of the individual. The real tragedy here is that these statistics show just how bad our government schools have done in educating our youth in simple economics.

Look before I leap...

November 19th, 2012
11:52 pm

“Liberalism: Not going to be happy until everyone is as miserable as we are! ”

PSHAW!

Conservatism: They are coming for your stuff! (aka, Not going to be happy until everyone lives in abject fear)

JKL2

November 19th, 2012
11:56 pm

RF- In fact, it was a liberal who got us a balanced budget with a surplus, welfare reform, and two terms without a costly war to speak of.

Never heard anyone call Newt a liberal before….

RF

November 20th, 2012
12:04 am

Craig: those individuals were lucky enough to live in a middle class community where they had the opportunity to work in their parents’ garages and their parents could pay the bills. They were lucky enough to live in a country where society, TOGETHER, pays for law enforcement and education so they could learn how to build it and do so in a safe environment where they didn’t have to worry about missiles blowing them to dust. They were lucky enough to live under a constitution that believes in “the general welfare” and the notion that everyone works to build the society so that individuals can indeed thrive. They were lucky to live in a country that encourages individual entrepreneurs and supports them with public services like roads, power, water, etc. They were lucky enough to live in a country that believes everyone, regardless of race, gender, religion, or lifestyle deserves the same access to opportunities to learn and participate in governing of the country instead of some despotic dicatatorship bent on destroying individual liberty.

RF

November 20th, 2012
12:06 am

“Never heard anyone call Newt a liberal before….”

Good one, I gotta admit!!

I’d get kicked off the blog if I called him what I really want to…as a Georgia boy, I’m ready for that nut to fall off the tree.

JKL2

November 20th, 2012
12:21 am

Stew Day

November 20th, 2012
2:03 am

Jay

This is a no brainer, if you teach liberal socialiam in the schools, where you nver teach the merits of capitalism and only teach the top vs bottom picture–when it is drilled into the minds of every college student that bigger givernement is cool, even to the extent of waiving student loans then of course the 18-24 year olds are going to have to work, start a business and learn that the government is owed by the people and it isn’t the government who owes the people. Your stats only enmphasize why the young need to grow old and learn from experience that anything that stops prosperity and takes away freedom is just plain wrong. Obamacare is a weight around the necks of our children for a 100 years to come. I feel sorry for them.

Mary Elizabeth

November 20th, 2012
3:46 am

“But after 1989, with its competitor vanquished, capitalism in effect began to exert its monopoly power. It became rougher, less paternal and more aggressive. If income for the already wealthy soared while the pay of working class Americans stagnated or even declined, well, too bad.”
==============================================

As an extension the thought within my 5:25 pm post, “this less paternal and more aggressive” form of capitalism has been the direct result of the concentrated effort, since the mid-1970s, of wealthy CEO’s of some corporations joined with Republican members of Congress and state legislatures to create a more unbridled, harsher captitalism, with its inherent hierarchical vision of gain for those at the financial top, at the expense of the middle/working classes.

Americans under 30 have witnessed this growing plutocracy in America for most of their lives, and they have rejected that harsher form of capitalism in favor of the more humane version of capitalism that is being espoused and implemented by Barack Obama, i.e. Obamacare. This is why the under 30 crowd overwhelmingly voted for President Obama’s re-election, not because he offered them more governmental “gifts” – as only Republicans such as Mitt Romney might perceive with a more limited vision – but because these young people identify more with Obama’s egalitiarian vision of humanity instead of the hierarchial vision being perpetuated by these Republicans. These young people have realized that the world has already begun moving toward a more egalitarian vision, and away from an outdated hierarchial vision of humanity.
——————————————————————————————–

From “Mary Elizabeth Sings,” entry entitled “The Growing Egalitarianism. . .”

“However, the ability to capture the imaginations of others is no easy accomplishment. To many, Barack Obama has that same gift that Kennedy had – the ability to inspire others and to forge his vision into the nation’s collective consciousness. Perhaps, Obama is setting the stage for a changed America, and a changed world, in this century. Perhaps, the Nobel Peace Prize Committee saw that dynamic force within him – already in movement – beyond the deeds that would fall, thereafter, as a result of the change in consciousness, precipitated by, in part, by him.

And, Obama’s vision is an egalitarian vision, the same vision that Jefferson’s mind encompassed.”
———————————————————————————–

http://maryelizabethsings.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/the-growing-egalitarianism-14-2/

Wake up

November 20th, 2012
4:50 am

Let us see. We live in a country where we complain about the cost of health care, but spend more on entertainment. We slavishly await the latest Apple release, buy new smartphones every 1-2 years, get 400 channels, live in bigged houses, eat more calories, are getting taller and living longer. Yep, socialism sounds like the answer, ha ha. Run the same poll 50 years ago and a big hunk of people favor communism

Mary Elizabeth

November 20th, 2012
5:14 am

Welcome, 5:16 pm

“Our grandparents’ generation had Roosevelt, who saved capitalism from itself at its earlier moment of greatest crisis.

We have Barack Obama, the ultimate of appeaser of capitalism and enabler of some of its absolute worst tendencies.

And that is our tragedy.”
———————————————————————

Welcome, I agree with you about Roosevelt’s having saved capitalism from its worst elements in his day; however, I disagree with you about Obama’s being an “enabler of its (capitalism’s) absolute worst tendencies.”

From the graph, above, we know that the young adults under 30, today, have approximately an equal like and dislike of capitalism and of socialism, unlike older American’s who support capitalism handily over socialism.

Since today’s young adults in America are greater advocates of a balance between socialism and capitalism, more so than are older Americans, then, if they perceived Obama to be “an enabler of the abolute worst elements in capitalism,” as you do, then I do not believe that these young adults would have voted for Obama in the large numbers that they did in the last two presidential elections.

I believe that, unlike your thinking, the young adults of today see President Obama’s egalitarian vision as containing the better elements of both capitalism and socialism, in balance with one another. Through that balance, Obama has a vision of capitalism which more similar to that of FDR’s vision of capitalism than the more brutal vision of capitalism perpetuated by top CEOs since the mid-1970s – which Obama has been trying to overturn. The young adults of today have evidently approved of Obama’s attempt to overturn that more brutal capitalism for a more humane capitalism, as seen through the large numbers of those Americans under 30 who cast their votes for him.

seabeau

November 20th, 2012
5:41 am

Considering the recent election where the 47% of non-tax paying voters plus a few malcontents reelected a president whose whole song consisted of verses bewailing the evils of capitalism and its cronies. These types don’t care about belaboring me and my fellow tax-paying voters with additional taxes. Obama Care soon to be the greatest tax increase on the middle class. Democrats,Tax and Spend,thats how they roll!

stands for decibels

November 20th, 2012
5:52 am

mornin’.

Good news about that crafts-store chain countless Americans have already told to eff off:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/20/usa-healthcare-oklahoma-court-idUSL1E8MK12E20121120

A U.S. federal judge on Monday denied a legal challenge to President Barack Obama’s signature health reforms, ruling that the owners of a $3 billion arts and crafts chain must provide emergency contraceptives in their group health care plan.

The owners of Hobby Lobby asked to be exempted from providing the “morning after” and “week after” pills on religious grounds, arguing this would violate their Christian belief that abortion is wrong.

Judge Joe Heaton of the U.S. District for the Western District of Oklahoma denied the request for a preliminary injunction.

Heaton ruled that while individual members of the family that owns and operates Hobby Lobby have religious rights, the companies the family owns are secular, for-profit enterprises that do not possess the same rights.

Why any business would actively work to alienate more than half of its customer base like that is beyond me.

stands for decibels

November 20th, 2012
5:55 am

47% of non-tax paying voters plus a few malcontents reelected a president

If you go on indulging yourself in such absurd beliefs you’ll go right on losing. And while that’s not the ideal way forward for progressive causes–I’d much rather have an opposition that kept us honest, rather than one that merely serves to act as a caricature of itself–it’ll do in a pinch.

clem

November 20th, 2012
6:10 am

Redcoat

November 20th, 2012
6:14 am

and so it goes, socialism intentions are propagandize as “good” for everyone. Then it takes over…….now read what history tells us what happens next, if that history hasn’t been destroyed or “rewritten”. The Left has won……get prepared for your assignments from the government leadership(not elected, but appointed by guess who). Americans will find being “independent” impossible.

Redcoat

November 20th, 2012
6:25 am

decibels…….why should anyone expect someone else pay for what they can provide or do for themselves? Why should someone be forced to finance good or bad personal decisions? Are contraceptives produced and sold at a profit? Is that morally right?

JamVet

November 20th, 2012
6:28 am

Neocon prognostications are as useful as their last big one – “Romney in a landslide!”

Even some of your own party’s more lucid leaders have begun to toss that idiotic Reagan’s 11th Commandment out the window. And have referred to the GOP as the Party of Stupid.

If nothing else you are VERY, VERY slow learners.

You just got your electoral teeth kicked in, for the third time since 2006 and you are more oblivious and willfully stupid and impotently enraged about it than ever.

Evolve or die.

weetamoe

November 20th, 2012
6:29 am

Whenever a someone in the group repeats platitudes about egalitarianism I think of *Animal Farm* and get just a little nervous–but then –is that the rumble of the tumbrels I hear? mon Dieu! I’m outta here.

St Simons - he-ne-ha

November 20th, 2012
6:38 am

maybe, just maybe if we wait another 32 years, it’ll trickle down on us.

praise supply-side jayysus as he flies in on his 6000 yr old dinosaur.

Karl Marx (aka your president Barack)

November 20th, 2012
6:38 am

“From each according to his ability, to each according to his need”

marko

November 20th, 2012
6:42 am

The word horse refers to a animal with four legs, a tail and a mane. I won’t be here, but I suspect that a hundred years from now it will mean pretty much the same thing. Words like capitalism and socialism don’t have any clear consistent definitions. Edmund Burke wouldn’t recognize the people that claim to be conservatives these days, and how many people that claim to be conservative have a clue who Edmund Burk was? An interesting poll nonetheless. Makes you wonder how people feel about other words they don’t understand.

Redcoat

November 20th, 2012
6:43 am

The left’s propaganda is working………..you can see it now

Frank

November 20th, 2012
7:04 am

Socialism has not worked in Europe. The people have asked for more than their Santa Claus Governments can give. Remember, you can’t take out more than you put in, and Socialism’s flaw is just that. Capitalism encourages achievement, socialism encourages sitting on your butt…. and a broke government.

Cloudodust

November 20th, 2012
7:05 am

Comrades : I feel as if I just read Bookman’s manifesto.

Frank

November 20th, 2012
7:06 am

When the thirteen colonies were still a part of England, Professor Alexander Tyler wrote about the fall of the Athenian republic over two thousand years previous to that time:

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.

The average age of the world’s great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage.

Alexander Tyler

Mick

November 20th, 2012
7:24 am

Well, sure has been great reading the great republican freakout, as if obama were socialism incarnate, where has the congress been while all this transformation happened? Medicare part D anyone? Who was president at that time? It’s the silliest garbage ever strewn together, however, the comic relief has been priceless!!!

Donovan, where art thou? Hope you didn’t commit hari kari…

stands for decibels

November 20th, 2012
7:26 am

stands for decibels

November 20th, 2012
7:30 am

Hope you didn’t commit hari kari…

a.k.a. “self-deportation.”

Americans For Prosperity 'Extremely Disappointed' In Rick Scott After Obamacare Shift

November 20th, 2012
7:41 am

Americans for Prosperity, a conservative organization backed by the billionaire Koch brothers, took aim at Florida Gov. Rick Scott (R) on Monday, accusing him of working against his state’s interests with his apparent change of heart on Obamacare.
In a statement, AFP said that Scott’s recent signal that he was willing to consider implementing key provisions of President Barack Obama’s health care reform law was a step in the wrong direction.
“AFP is extremely disappointed in leaders in Florida suggesting that the Sunshine State should create a health insurance exchange” said Slade O’Brien, AFP’s Florida State Director. “An exchange will increase insurance premiums on consumers and taxes on hardworking families. Florida’s best intentions will be masked by the federal government’s onerous requirements.”
Scott had stood as one of the most stubborn adversaries of Obamacare, even in the wake of the president’s reelection, which effectively secured the law’s existence. But after first vowing to reject moves to set up a state-run health insurance exchange and expand Medicaid rolls under the Affordable Care Act, Scott said last week that he was ready to “have a conversation.” Leaders in the state legislature have also signalled a willingness to take steps toward implementation.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/19/americans-for-prosperity-rick-scott_n_2160739.html?ref=topbar

Brosephus™

November 20th, 2012
7:44 am

Mick

That freakout kinda resembled this….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZzTpjh-NsQ

Steve

November 20th, 2012
7:45 am

Jay, interesting theory, next question, any data to support it, i.e were 18 year olds in 1980, if a study was done, supportive of socialism to the degree that thet do now. How does one define capitalism in these studies. ……Speculation, pure speculation, could be true, might not be.

Wonder what the numbers were in 1925, when athe world saw communism as a wonderful alternative to the gilded age,well that was not as it seemed, either

With the aging of the population, what this seems to say is that the u.s. will support caitalism to a greater extent. To the younger generation, get off your butt,Mom and dad don’t want to pay your health insurance when you get out of college,it’s time to “make it” in the world…

Fun to talk about…

Skip

November 20th, 2012
7:51 am

Is this lazy younger generation the same one dieing in the Bush wars?

fair and balanced

November 20th, 2012
7:51 am

Republicans are strong believers in socialism if it will buy them votes and allow them to get rich off of the federal government. If you accept that fact of of our political life then you will begin to realize that socialism means whatever the GOP and their media mouthpieces want to throw at the Democrats at the moment. just look at Reagan’s unfunded mandate ffor free emergency room care paid for by those who have insurance and government funding. Then when Obama passes mandatory insurance coverage for the uninsured who can afford to pay as well as universal employer coverage so emergency room and other health care gets funded, the cons call it socialism. And unfunded Medicare drugs passed by the GOP-what is that?

fair and balanced

November 20th, 2012
7:51 am

Republicans are strong believers in socialism if it will buy them votes and allow them to get rich off of the federal government. If you accept that fact of of our political life then you will begin to realize that socialism means whatever the GOP and their media mouthpieces want to throw at the Democrats at the moment. just look at Reagan’s unfunded mandate ffor free emergency room care paid for by those who have insurance and government funding. Then when Obama passes mandatory insurance coverage for the uninsured who can afford to pay as well as universal employer coverage so emergency room and other health care gets funded, the cons call it socialism. And unfunded Medicare drugs passed by the GOP-what is that?

stands for decibels

November 20th, 2012
7:52 am

alex

November 20th, 2012
7:53 am

@jamvet, I don’t thhink you’ve changed your tune in the last 2 weeks, are you just bored or so narrow minded;virtually everyone else has moved to the discussion at hand.You are living in the past. Mabye this election has given your life some type of new meaning, I don’t know but your like a groaning scratched record…Yes, of course I don’t have to read your input and perhaps I will now stop, but that does not change your insistent repitition…..

alex

November 20th, 2012
7:56 am

@Mary Elizabeth, I understand you were a teacher,I hope it wasn’t statistics. How anyone can take the simple data that Jay gave us and come up with your ideas leads me to beleive you taught science fiction, NO?

stands for decibels

November 20th, 2012
7:57 am

There’s another take on this Dec. 2011 poll and more recent polling, and what it means, that some here might want to dig into:

http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/18/is-rush-limbaughs-country-gone/

Much of the focus in the media in recent years has been on the growing hard-line stance of the Republican Party. At the same time, there are significant developments taking place as a new left alliance forms to underpin the Democratic Party. John Judis and Ruy Teixeira originally described this alliance in 2002 as the emerging Democratic majority in a pioneering book of the same name. More recently, the pollster Stan Greenberg and a group of liberal activists have described it as the “rising American electorate.”

[...]

When voters were asked whether cutting taxes or investing in education and infrastructure is the better policy to promote economic growth, the constituencies of the new liberal electorate consistently chose education and infrastructure by margins ranging from 2-1 to 3-2 — African Americans by 62-33, Hispanics by 61-37, never-married men by 56-38, never-married women by 64-30, voters under 30 by 63-34, and those with post-graduate education by 60-33.

[...]

As Obama negotiates with Republican House and Senate leaders to prevent a dive over the “fiscal cliff,” he will be under strong pressure from his reinvigorated liberal supporters to take a tough stand in support of tax hikes on the well-to-do and to more firmly limit spending cuts.

as to that last point–I certainly hope so, anyway.

RF

November 20th, 2012
7:57 am

“Well, sure has been great reading the great republican freakout, as if obama were socialism incarnate, where has the congress been while all this transformation happened?”

But, but, he’s an A-RAB raghead Muslim Socialist Kenyan liar…..they said so on Fox!!! (typed as I adjust my blue-haired wig and clutch my copies of the Bible and the Constitution to my chest….)

It’s easy to throw out the names and make all sorts of ridiculous claims. What people conveniently forget is that we have a 3 part federal government. The president can’t create legislation that doesn’t pass the two houses of the Legislative Branch. He can only sign or veto what they write. Then the Supreme Court has the responsibility to weigh legislation against the Constitution when it is challenged. Sooooo, even if the President could somehow ask for some sort of socialist bill to give away everything to the lazy, poor, and unmotivated and take government control of all the wealth, and that bill could somehow pass Congress, it would have to get past the Supreme Court. How exactly will that happen? And what legislation to that end has been passed in the last four years exactly?

I’ll wait for the answer…

Go Navy

November 20th, 2012
7:57 am

Where is USMC?

Mr. Mike

November 20th, 2012
8:00 am

Josef;
I’m a frequent reader/infrequent contributor. Your Clemenceau quotes were excellent. I’m a semi-retired former military historian; I feel Clemenceau is the premier “wartime” political leader of the 20th Century.
Another of his with you’re probably familiar was at his speech to the Chamber of Deputies in Nov 1917; roughly paraphrased “My formula is the same in every respect. Domestic policy, I wage war. Foreign policy, I wage war. War, always war, nothing but war”.
I’ve had friends ask me what was the difference between France in the Great War and in WWII. Essentially, I tell tehm “no Foch or Clemenceau in WWII”.
raty y

alex

November 20th, 2012
8:02 am

@fair, yea that 1 example is fully supportive of the concept of republican socialism…Yea,,make sense to me…sheesh…..Wow that WAS impressive, ..took you how many months to come up with that, worn out “goggle” have you……

Georgia on my mind...

November 20th, 2012
8:05 am

Nathan Deal needs to follow Florida’s governor and implement a health insurance exchange system.
That is what procrastination will get you. Governor Deal and other Republican governors never thought that Mitt Romney would lose the election. Time to get busy governor!!

Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...

November 20th, 2012
8:12 am

fair and balanced

November 20th, 2012
7:51 am

The Republicans are getting no more richer than the DEMS under our dysfunctional system. The GOP, especially with a weak candidate like Romney, will definitely say anything to get votes just as BO did in 2008.

The ACA does many thinks right but financially for taxpayers, it will be a collosal bust. The large hospital operators threw billions at DEMS to have the law favor them collecting the previously uncollectable revenue…often as much as 20% of total annual revenue…

By getting in bed with the enemies (insurers and large hospital operators), PelosiCare will result in increased costs by many, and zero savings due to the political power of those (physicians) they are trying to screw..

GT

November 20th, 2012
8:13 am

Religion has mutated in this era too. Thugs have found a home there under the paranoia that people are out to get them. The communist party has been substituted for an enemy within, and our own government. You run out of pavement rather fast in that vision of America, no standing army, no identifiable enemy dress in team colors ready to be shot and when you lie about the enemy you lie about your own citizens. When the facts are against you as a politician an enemy is your ace in the hole with the masses. We just about disposed of all our natural enemies and are starting to cannibalize ourselves.

honested

November 20th, 2012
8:13 am

A greater awareness of what is really meant by the two concepts will no doubt amplify this trend.

Being controlled by another’s wealth is no more desirable than being controlled by their gun.

Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...

November 20th, 2012
8:17 am

STANDS

Too bad we have never gotten any meaningful investment from the trillions new and existing administrations have pumped into education…it’s an obligatory issue that all candidates have some new fancy catch phrase for their unique and amazing approach…none of which has improved per the (inappropriate) metrics we use…

Gets depressing year after year hearing all this rhetoric about education plans that never offer any returns…frustrating

stands for decibels

November 20th, 2012
8:22 am

education plans that never offer any returns…

like what–an ecologically friendly 99-dollar jetpack brought to market?

stands for decibels

November 20th, 2012
8:31 am

oh, and Redcoat? I know you’d probably melt if you clicked this link, but here’s a coupla pertinent grafs to answer your not-very-convincing cluelessness posted @ 6.25.

One of the most upsetting and disturbing developments in the past few years of wingnut propaganda is the attempt to define “religious freedom” as expanding the powers of the already-powerful over others, specifically with an eye towards coercing others to live by your religious rules. Even though the courts correctly (usually) see religious freedom being best protected by eliminating coercive prayer in schools, for instance, your average wingnut believes these rulings attack their religious freedom. After all, what’s the point of religion if you can’t impose it on others? Thus, the only way they can see to protect religious freedom is to give, say, schoolteachers the right to lead their class in prayer (as long as it’s the correct Christian prayer, of course).

Same story with hollering “religious freedom” to justify giving your boss the right to impose his religious beliefs on your medical decision-making. Your insurance benefits you earn through work are yours, and no more belong to your boss than your paycheck does. Giving your boss a right to veto coverage of your contraception because he thinks vaginas are only for baby-making is a direct imposition on your religious freedom, a clear-cut example of your boss declaring he has a right to impose his religious values on you, even in a realm as private as your medical and sexual decision-making. (And since cost considerations exert a great deal of influence on how many women—say, someone making $10 an hour working the counter at Hobby Lobby—choose contraception, this boss’s veto of coverage will actually change her choices.) But conservatives don’t see employees as rights-bearing people. Just as with the “states rights” blather, the only rights they recognize are the “right” to exert power over those down the hierarchy from you.

Mary Elizabeth

November 20th, 2012
8:32 am

Alex, 7:56 am

“@Mary Elizabeth, I understand you were a teacher,I hope it wasn’t statistics. How anyone can take the simple data that Jay gave us and come up with your ideas leads me to beleive you taught science fiction, NO?”
——————————————————————————————

Alex, I understand that you identify yourself as a teacher, also, but I have learned not to give your thoughts credibility – based upon your recent past response to my statement that a 12 year old had called me as his favorite teacher. Evidently, you missed my response to that previous post of yours, so I will repost it, here, for you (and for others) to understand why I give your remarks no further credence. And, fyi, I have spent a lifetime in thinking for myself, and in developing thoughts which are not limited to Jay Bookman’s charts.
========================================================

“Alex,
November 16th, 2012
2:40 pm

I taught professional students: coddling was rarely used, performance is the key, either you do or don’t perform in critical issues at critical times, not everyone gets a trophy… It’ gets their attention and fast……wasted time can mean the difference between life and death, I guess that makes me a bit harder than you…Glad YOU taught children and I taught adults….now WHERE are my pants?…..”
———————————————————————-

“Mary Elizabeth
November 16th, 2012, 5:43 pm

Alex, your post is not only condescending, it is wrong factually, and it is full of stereotypical thinking. None of those are traits that a good teacher should have.

You assume that I taught younger children because, as a substitute teacher after I had retired, I had one class, one day, of middle school students, and one of those particular 12 year olds had said that I was his favorite teacher. I found that to be very human and caring.

For your information, I have been second in command of a school, directly under the principal when I functioned as an Instructional Lead Teacher for nearly a decade, and for 16 years I taught seniors in high school who ranged in age from 17 to 20. When I was an Instructional Lead Teacher, I did not teach for 6 years, but instead I worked with teachers to improve their instruction with students in grades 1 – 8. So you can understand that I also spent a good part of my educational career working with late adolescents and adults who were teachers.

You make a stereotypical assessment that I want ‘everyone to get a trophy,’ which is not only erroneous but very telling about your thought processes.

When I taught juniors and seniors in high school, I also worked with over 100 teachers in that school to improve the academic standing of 1800 students, grades 9 – 12, and I also led a group which worked with counselors, parents, administrators, psychologists, social workers, teachers, and other professionals to pinpoint areas that might cause students to fail or to drop out of school.

Your post tells me more about you than I think you would have liked. I never ‘wasted’ a moment of time when I was actively employed in the business of creating tomorrow’s leaders and well prepared citizens. Your post is a disappointment to me precisely because you identify yourself as a teacher.”

—————————————————————————————————–

Nick W

November 20th, 2012
8:33 am

No-one seems to have considered the possibility that “the kids” are more positive concerning socialism because what they believe to be socialism has been permanently adjusted by RW propogandazing on the issue.

As far as the 65+ age group is concerned “socialism” is Stalin, Lenin, Castro and Pol Pot… It’s massive curtailment of liberty, “equality of poverty”, Lada’s for the masses and Zil’s for the ruling class. I’m not surprised they view it very negatively… and rightly so if that is what socialism is.

However, for the young people “Socialism” (as it is currently used) is “The kind of healthcare system all 1st world countries, bar the US, have”, “Unions representing your interests in the work place”, “unemployment insurance if you get laid off”, “A state provided minimum standard of living when you retire”, “Food stamps if you are really so poor as to be unable to buy food”, “Highways to drive on” and “Equality of pay for minorities and women”. I.e. “Capitalism with the rough edges knocked off” with no real relations to socialism as the Soviet Bloc practised it.

Basically the young are working off the definition of socilaism made popular by right-wingers attempting to denigrate the centre-left….. and all those things are perfectly reasonable and attractive things to find in a society… they are evaluating it against a different yard stick, and saying “Yes, I wouldn’t mind some of what the rest of the 1st world have, thank you” whilst the seniors are evaulating it as “No, I don’t want what the old soviet bloc had, thank you”.

This is NOT really young people “forgetting what socialism is/was”…… So much as the right-wing being so successful in redefining anything that is even “slightly lefty orientated capitalism” as socialism that they have actually re-made the meaning of the word such that it now has positive connotations for young people.

They want what the Right-Wingers describe as socialism NOW….. Not socialism “As it was then”.

This is the blowback societies get when portions of it untether certain words from their original meaning over decades and decades to serve a political point. Eventually, the word changes meaning…. and if the new thing you have tethered it too is as attractive as “slightly left of centre orientated capitalism” the word then starts becomming a positive thing.

And, No, the way you have redefined it now (what is essentially mixed-economy capitalism) bears no more relation to the original socialism their grandparents knew.