Economic insecurity a challenge to GOP
As might be expected, there’s a lot rethinking under way among conservatives in the wake of Tuesday night. Before the election, for example, I ran a sampling of headlines from National Review’s website, each of them supremely confident in a Romney victory, nay landslide.
As of last night, the terrain has changed:
Our Terrifying Message
People are afraid of the GOP
Why Hispanics Don’t Vote GOP
The “social issues” Hispanic voter is a mirage
Sifting Through the Wreckage
A grim four years lie ahead
The Machine
The numbers beat the numbers guy
Bitterfest 2012
Jay Nordlinger presents his apparently quadrennial notes
How Romney Lost
The bad news: Class warfare works
Under the first headline, about the terrifying GOP, we find this:
“… each of Obama’s core constituencies (single women, African-Americans, and Latinos) is seriously — and disproportionately — economically disadvantaged compared to the classic paradigm of the white, college-educated Republican voter. The rates of poverty and near-poverty among these groups are much greater, thus causing a critical mass of both populations to suffer — even if they’re technically middle class — from a greater degree of economic insecurity. Even as Mitt won the votes of those who make over $50,000 by nine points, Obama won those who make less by a whopping 22 points — enough to give him the victory.
Second, while classic identity-group issues like abortion, affirmative action, and immigration undoubtedly matter, conservatives are deluding themselves if they think they can simply take those issues off the table and then compete on equal terms for this slice of voters. In fact, economically insecure voters can even agree with conservatives on social issues yet will still consistently pull the lever for statist candidates. Ideologically and historically they are pre-disposed towards statism as the means of alleviating economic insecurity and distress. In other words, for the single mom, “Julia” is an appealing paradigm — because at least someone is taking care of her family. (If I hear one more time that Latinos are social conservatives ready to support Republicans if only we could pass comprehensive immigration reform, I might throw something).”
As an initial diagnosis of the problem, I think that’s somewhat accurate. Economic insecurity is a serious and growing issue for millions of Americans, driven in part by a changing global economy and by a system that concentrates more and more wealth at the top. French is wrong to limit that to minority voters, however. The successful government bailout of the auto industry, alleviating economic security for a million or more workers, helped the Obama ticket immensely among white voters in states such as Ohio, Michigan and Wisconsin. A lot of GOP voters also feel that insecurity, but for the moment the party has managed to convince them that the cause of that insecurity is government.
Within this new economic order — which is quite altered from the system that many of us knew growing up — individuals still can and do earn great success. But the system itself has changed in ways that permit fewer and fewer people to make that journey. That’s just a fact, and the causes driving that change are economic and technological in nature, not political.
(The cause is also not moral in nature. Those on the left who attribute these changes to amorality among the rich are just as wrong as those on the right who attribute it to amorality among the poor. Both rich and poor are merely responding rationally to the system in which they operate.)
And the recommended solution by David French?
“We simply can’t retreat into our large but still-minority cocoon of new media and talk only to each other, working hard to get ever-larger numbers of our shrinking constituencies to the polls. Our cultural efforts have to be every bit as wide-ranging and persistent as those of the Left. Majority ideologies are built over generations, not overnight, and it means breaking the public-school monopoly, influencing public schools even while we work to diminish their influence, sending our best and brightest young writers and actors into the lion’s den of Hollywood, working to reform higher education and breaking the ideological hammerlock of the hard Left on faculties, and working hard — very hard — to tell the true story of conservative compassion for the “least of these,” a story featuring the efficiency and creativity of private philanthropy combined with Christ-centered love and concern for the individual.”
The admission about public schools is interesting, confirming my belief that Georgia’s Amendment One is a Trojan horse, and that those Democrats who supported its passage will one day come to rue that decision. Overall, however, let’s just say the scope of the solution falls romantically short of the scale of the problem.
– Jay Bookman
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388 comments Add your comment
stands for decibels
November 9th, 2012
10:27 am
My grandparents used to tell me about those (and they were born in the 1800’s) How old did you say you were?
[har. Old enough that it was something of a psychological bridge to cross when I cast my first vote in 2008 not just for a half-black Kenyan, but ... horrors ... a little YOUNGER than me! I'm falling behind! I'm not Preznit yet! Time's running out! but I digress.]
I only recently learned from friends in NJ that the old style voting machines–which used little levers to indicate your choice for candidate, and a BIG HONKIN’ lever, to open and close the curtain (and clear the choices for the next voter). They made a very distinctive mechanical noise, kind of like racking a Remington 870, and yeah, I was kind of let down when I came to GA and faced these effeminate, spindly little touch screens.
USinUK - not very ladylike (and former Girl Scout)
November 9th, 2012
10:27 am
“What I think I’m getting from the suggested new Republican strategy is that they need a better, more realistic looking, set of sheep’s clothing”
really? what I’m getting is that they were entirely too moderate and that they need to double down on the hawt conservative action!!
godless heathen
November 9th, 2012
10:27 am
Stevie Ray: s your example confirms, he’s simply not a good man… My example was of a Democratic Urban Legend. def: A untruth, lie, fabrication, or prevarication often presented as fact on Bookman’s blog.
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
November 9th, 2012
10:28 am
BRO
What did I say that suggested to you that anyone is proposing 100% taxes..you understand the idea of perspective don’t you?
I can help you…taking my comments out of context and creating a discussion that is therefor irrelevant and misleading is beneath you…I thought..
We always agreed on a balanced approach to both concepts…
Brosephus™
November 9th, 2012
10:28 am
“With conservatives across the country concerned about a rumored Republican cave-in in Washington, D.C. over tax policy, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) is speaking out. Read his lips: no tax hikes.”
The battle is lost. If the GOP’s tactic of obstruction continues, then the Dems will ultimately get a tax increase come Jan 1, 2013. The only thing the GOP can do to stop that is compromise, and we know they don’t like to compromise.
————————-
Paul @ 10:12
Well, since you’re from Texas, a conservative and boot lovin’ state, I figured you had your own closet full of bootstraps.
My bad on making assumptions though. I won’t let that happen again.
St Simons - he-ne-ha
November 9th, 2012
10:28 am
Hanniteh is trying to out-meltdown the other radio pig’s epic pill-fueled
meltdown.
Presto! – “Today I have ‘evolved’ on Immigration!”
Two problems there, whackadoodle #2 – ‘videotape’ and ‘transcripts’
heheheh
Morality?
November 9th, 2012
10:28 am
“Law abiding illegals”…….. no – you didn’t say that did you. OXYMORON. I know what you meant but illegals wouldn’t be illegal if they were law abiding would they?
Adam
November 9th, 2012
10:29 am
Hurricane Sandy was what God intended to happen, and women shut Todd Akin’s race down.
Williebkind
November 9th, 2012
10:30 am
“they know what they don’t want…they don’t know what they DO want.”
I assume locutions like the one above really makes liberals feel smart. Hey they admit how intelligent they are constantly.
Erwin's cat
November 9th, 2012
10:31 am
I didn’t realize the popular vote was such a landslide that the GOP should just not show up. As history has shown, the pendulum swings both ways.
Dems, the future of the GOP somewhat depends on your actions in the next 4 years. So while you are patting yourselves on the back (as you should) do not forget that power can be a temporary curse
Oscar
November 9th, 2012
10:31 am
Sons of Confederate Veterans
alex
November 9th, 2012
10:31 am
@GT, read your post, wonder if a “personal right’ includes health care… then you go on and , there it is, you can’t help yourself, RACE (white man toll), You are a bigot, plain and simple, you revel in it, it soothes your simple mind. It gives you perspective of black /white in a very grey world.Your bigotry allows you to function, without it you would have to weigh the possibilities. You are a bigot, plain and simple, no worse than a south Ga. Bubba and NO better than he…..
flagboy?
November 9th, 2012
10:31 am
Joe. . . seriously. . .
“And so it is with the USA. Don’t want to pay taxes, find another country. QED.”
“Why would I? I wasn’t employing the ‘ZOMG EITHER DEMS WIN OR I WALK’ rhetoric. It seems that once again, you’re leaping to a *lot* of conclusions about me — and once again, they’re wrong.”
Man, I love talking/arguing/debating about things. Honestly. But you never stick with one argument, and worse, change what it was you were apparently intending to say.
the church isn’t a good example. I get to decide if i want to support a church or even attend one. I don’t get the same choice with government.
Williebkind
November 9th, 2012
10:32 am
“The battle is lost. If the GOP’s tactic of obstruction continues, then the Dems will ultimately get a tax increase come Jan 1, 2013. The only thing the GOP can do to stop that is compromise, and we know they don’t like to compromise.”
No compromise! You wanted tax increases, let them begin.
newkid
November 9th, 2012
10:34 am
Jay, I say again this apparent post-election fixation with picking at the GOP scab is likely missing a prime opportunity to help push the discourse on the regional and national public square to a more meaningful discussion of where the emerging demographics will take the nation. This GOP-centric fixation is counter-productive and needlessly distracting for the fickle among us. Here, why not take this late 2011 document as an inspiration for a series of thoughtful and productive blogs:
http://www.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/issues/2011/10/pdf/progress_2050.pdf
Joe Hussein Mama
November 9th, 2012
10:34 am
“Morality” — ““Law abiding illegals”…….. no – you didn’t say that did you. OXYMORON. I know what you meant but illegals wouldn’t be illegal if they were law abiding would they?”
The *accurate* term, which has been in use since the 1960s, is ‘undocumented immigrant.’
And being in the US with immigration documents is not a crime, no matter how much you might like for it to be one. It’s a document offense, akin to driving without your license or registration.
If you don’t believe me, call up ICE yourself and ask them. Here you go:
http://www.ice.gov/exec/forms/hsi-tips/tips.asp
Oh, my. Notice that? The ICE only wants you to report *criminal* acts by undocumented immigrants — not just that you think those guys in front of the Home Depot are here without leave.
flagboy?
November 9th, 2012
10:35 am
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am…
November 9th, 2012
10:21 am
I’d like to see a media outlet that is not simply towing a party line…I can’t think of any obvious or screened that arent’ led by the nose…an independent channel?
______________________________
Then don’t watch Fox News. . . all the others are A-Ok.
. . . .
Nunna Yobinnes
November 9th, 2012
10:35 am
There are a lot of references as to the “Bush tax cuts that benefit the wealthy” but no one seems to be able to enumerate them. The Kool-Aid propaganda machine at work. When so many lower income and middle class people pay no taxes at all, how does that favor the rich? Another question – Why should dividend income be double taxed? Interest income isn’t double taxed.
Morality?
November 9th, 2012
10:36 am
When Jimmy Carter was humiliated in land slide by Ronnie pundits and Repubs said the Dem Party was dead. Dems lost the House, the Senate and the popular and electoral vote – made this election look like a squeaker. Don’t get to smug – the Repubs or some other party will be back and some day the Dems will be pronounced dead. Voters have a tendency to get fed up with the far left and the far right and a correction takes place over time. Obama is not the center – he is LEFT of center and it would do him well to move to the center for the future of the Dem Party.
Redcoat
November 9th, 2012
10:36 am
Oscar……..Private company becomes a government company when the government steps in. The company then can not fail even if it is failing. Government taxes more citizens to keep failed company afloat. Company management is not changed. Citizens become smaller. Government “officials” start picking winners and losers, not citizens.
godless heathen
November 9th, 2012
10:36 am
No compromise! You wanted tax increases, let them begin.
The electorate has spoken. “Thank you sir, may I have another.”
Tom Middleton
November 9th, 2012
10:37 am
So Jay, are we supposed to believe that the white-bread Right is somehow going to become whole grain? Do that and there goes their southern base forever and a day.
Sorry, but all this talk about the white-wing “evolving” into a party no longer in love with itself is just another of their just-for-show media displays; and to me, that makes it political.
The young coming along today know who is offering them an open door and who is not, and it’s not the Republican Party, especially when it runs someone like Romney, who will do and say anything to anyone for his financial and political gain.
How much easier is it for one of the young today, and even an old fart like me, to identify with a President Obama, who’s willing to find ways to help anyone trying but can’t quite make it on their own. There’s your Christian attitude, sir, and it’s the real deal. I mean, maybe the next person straight to hell can ask Ayn if she still thinks it’s wrong!
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
November 9th, 2012
10:37 am
GODLESS
I’m still confused over your ratios i guess..
Dem/Rep No High School 64%/35%
High School Grad 55/44
College Grad 49/49
Post grad 58/41
Seems that every category is in favor of DEMS except a tie for undergrads…???
The argument is irrelevant yet what you post is predictable when I see it…The lower two most likely have need for some government subsidy (kinda suggested by Jay)..the upper end of “intelligensia” live in a lala land that frowns upon anythingthing that suggests a departure of their way of thought…
Brosephus™
November 9th, 2012
10:37 am
What did I say that suggested to you that anyone is proposing 100% taxes..you understand the idea of perspective don’t you?
http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2012/11/09/economic-insecurity-a-challenge-to-gop/?cp=all#comment-1145200
Taxing the “rich” defined as amounts over $250 at 100% would run the goverment for 140 days or so…of course that is unrealisitic…but telling…
Why would you even need to include that statement in a discussion? I’m not taking things out of context. You post that as though that is an idea being floated because you then make a statement about Dems cutting through social programs. The idea that people put that statement up as though it’s some kind of suggestion is not simply a fairy tale statement. If you know it’s not an idea being floated around, why present it as though it has any merit at all? If it were me, I would never use that statement because it’s common sense, and nobody’s suggesting it. That’s just me though.
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
November 9th, 2012
10:39 am
FLAGBOY
In fairness, Fox does at least attempt to offer both sides (as weak as the attempt may be) which is completely different than its cable competitors IMO.
Self admittedly, 70% of journalists are liberals or otherwise democratic…so IMO the bias is on both in front and behind the scenes…
Joe Hussein Mama
November 9th, 2012
10:40 am
Flagboy — “Man, I love talking/arguing/debating about things. Honestly. But you never stick with one argument, and worse, change what it was you were apparently intending to say.”
Stop right there, mister.
You have absolutely no authority to claim knowledge of what I meant or “intended to say.” If you think you can speak for me, we are not going to get along well at all.
If you want me to *clarify* something because it wasn’t clear to you or sounded really unreasonable, then simply ask me. I’ll always respond positively to polite questions.
If, however, you’re going to act like Towncrier or Doom and say ‘this is what you were thinking and this is what you meant and HAHA I proved you wrong,’ then we’re going to argue a lot more than we discuss. You can’t read my mind any more than I can read yours. Keep that in mind and we should be able to get along.
“the church isn’t a good example.”
On the contrary. It is an excellent example.
“I get to decide if i want to support a church or even attend one. I don’t get the same choice with government.”
Of course you have the same choice with government. Don’t like it, emigrate. Just like a church — if you don’t like one, move along to another. The only difference is the distance you might have to move and the regulatory hurdles in your way.
FWIW, my wife and I are looking at retiring overseas, so I’m not ignorant of the issues involved.
RW-(the original)
November 9th, 2012
10:42 am
when I came to GA and faced these effeminate, spindly little touch screens.
When I first voted in Georgia I was faced with having to use a metal spike to punch a hole through a flimsy piece of cardboard. I would only find out a few cycles later how difficult a task that was for some people.
Brosephus™
November 9th, 2012
10:42 am
No compromise! You wanted tax increases, let them begin.
The GOP wanted tax increases. If those tax cuts were all they were suppsed to be, they should have been able to pass them by normal means to make them permanent. Instead, they used reconcilliation, which gave them a 10 year sunset period. If it were up to me, they would have disappeared 2 years ago and wouldn’t be a point of contention today.
Morality?
November 9th, 2012
10:43 am
Pay attention……. someone earlier used the term “law abiding illegals” – not me. That term is an oxymoron. Foreigners – non U.S. citizens (from anywhere) Coming across the border into the U.S. without the proper entry papers is illegal but just not that well enforced. End of discussion.
Welcome to the Occupation
November 9th, 2012
10:43 am
Morality? “Obama is not the center – he is LEFT of center and it would do him well to move to the center for the future of the Dem Party.”
Is that a joke? Parody?
Obama as “left” of center? What universe do you live in actually?
Obama heads of a right of center Democratic party and if anything he is to the right of his party as a whole.
godless heathen
November 9th, 2012
10:43 am
Seems that every category is in favor of DEMS except a tie for undergrads…???
Biggest advantage is in those that don’t finish high school. The original poster caused to me to look it up, so I posted what I found. As I originally said not easy to discern who is better educated because the # in each group varies.
One does wonder how the poor ignorant trailer-dwelling GOPers all got so filthy wealthy. /sarc
Heckle and JayKyle
November 9th, 2012
10:43 am
Love the word Magpie. The two Magpies of Wisdom are JayKyle. Right and Left. One thinks the Right needs to reach out to the diseased-minded Left. The other thinks that only a reality sandwich can help.
Kyle thinks that liberalism is a disease of the mind and body, soul and heart. Jay thinks that conservatism is a corrupt demon where only the lie can thrive. This is the backstory of the 3-d video game that our political landscape has become.
BTW: did anyone wear the 3-d glasses in the voting booth to help pull the lever? In Florida, your vote didn’t count if you failed to wear the glasses. (That explanation is as good as the real one for why Fla takes so long, but we’ll never get the real explanation ever.)
ever.
Joe Hussein Mama
November 9th, 2012
10:44 am
S. Ray — “In fairness, Fox does at least attempt to offer both sides (as weak as the attempt may be) which is completely different than its cable competitors IMO.”
I don’t see that at all.
Rachel Maddow routinely invites conservatives on her show, and she gives them all the time they want to discuss their POV. The part they don’t like is *after* they’re done talking, because she asks *hard,* well-informed questions and she doesn’t take ‘I don’t want to answer that” as an acceptable response.
Rand Paul hung himself by his own rope on her show a couple of years ago, but it was all his own fault. The things he said that the media vilified him for were the things he came on there to say.
And FWIW, NPR is a lot more moderate than a lot of conservatives believe. In fact, I heard a five-minute interview with Richard Viguerie on NPR just this morning.
Nunna Yobinnes
November 9th, 2012
10:45 am
Um, we use spindly touch screens because there was some much whining over the so-called “dimpled chads”.
Nunna Yobinnes
November 9th, 2012
10:46 am
so much not some much.
Redcoat
November 9th, 2012
10:46 am
Libs want conservatives to STFU, So when things go wrong, what will they do?…. they will blame it on conservatives for doing just that.
clem
November 9th, 2012
10:46 am
how true Bros., the truth is compromise should prevail, but nitwit tpers will gum up the works because they already have their money (at least some and the lower economic tper too stupid to comprehend they are being used). what do you expect in the south, they still fight the civil war
Joe Hussein Mama
November 9th, 2012
10:46 am
“Morality” — “Pay attention……. someone earlier used the term “law abiding illegals” – not me. That term is an oxymoron.”
No, it’s not.
“Foreigners – non U.S. citizens (from anywhere) Coming across the border into the U.S. without the proper entry papers is illegal”
Wrong. You are incorrect.
“End of discussion.”
We can only hope that it is the end of your uninformed ranting on the topic.
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
November 9th, 2012
10:48 am
BRO
So when thinking about the vilification of the evil rich who “don’t pay there fair share”, the fact puts in perspective that raising taxes on that class alone is only going to get us so far (of course that 100% is not realistic nor even proposed)..I see zero evidence that the DEMS will agree to take on the tactics to reform entitlement expenditures..the exaggeration that the GOP wanted to throw granny off the cliff, or end SS et al as we know it was a scare tactic the dems certainly don’t want to be on the otherside of…
flagboy?
November 9th, 2012
10:48 am
Joe-
“And so it is with the USA. Don’t want to pay taxes, find another country. QED.”
“Why would I? I wasn’t employing the ‘ZOMG EITHER DEMS WIN OR I WALK’ rhetoric. It seems that once again, you’re leaping to a *lot* of conclusions about me — and once again, they’re wrong.”
quotes are yours.
And no, I don’t have the same choice with church. If I don’t want to go, I don’t go. If i want to leave the US, it certainly isn’t that simple (which, I wouldn’t want to do anyway, but you brought it up). Comparing the two is faulty logic.
Morality?
November 9th, 2012
10:49 am
Try going in to Mexico, Canada, etc without a passport. You would be charged as illegally entering their country. END OF DISCUSSION.
Joe Hussein Mama
November 9th, 2012
10:49 am
G. Heathen — “One does wonder how the poor ignorant trailer-dwelling GOPers all got so filthy wealthy. /sarc”
If you go on Free Republic, every poster there is either an attorney, an IT expert, a doctor or some kind of business owner (trucking lines and construction contracting seem to be the two most popular), but almost no one admits to being a farmer, construction worker, plumber or other salt-of-the-earth working man like that.
It’s like they’re all puffing their chests out for each other so the audience can see their big swingin’ egos.
Redcoat
November 9th, 2012
10:50 am
clem…….what would be a compromise in your opinion?
Mamouian
November 9th, 2012
10:51 am
All of you seem to have a lot to say. But, as in most circle jerks, no one is listening but you. The country is in decline and all you can do is squabble and gloat, like so many chickens clucking.
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
November 9th, 2012
10:52 am
JOE,
Fox routinely has Axelrod, Sharpton, DEM party chairperson et al on shows..I’m thinking better of Maddow but I can’t stand her smug face when she points out bad things about the other guy but in general agree she does made an effort..I don’t spend much time at either..
You are spot on with NPR..althought some LIB spin does exist and is well documented..one I do like that is not sensationalistic is POTUS on XM..except when they have those god awful Media Matters knee padders on…
Joe Hussein Mama
November 9th, 2012
10:52 am
“Morality” — “Try going in to Mexico, Canada, etc without a passport. You would be charged as illegally entering their country.”
We don’t abide by Mexican or Canadian law in this country.
Being here without documentation is NOT a crime. It’s a *document offense.* You are just plain wrong.
“END OF DISCUSSION.”
Good, you’re getting worked up. I love when reality collides with con imaginations. It’s kinda like when they realized that Romney lost.
godless heathen
November 9th, 2012
10:52 am
If you go on Free Republic, every poster there is either an attorney, an IT expert, a doctor or some kind of business owner (trucking lines and construction contracting seem to be the two most popular), but almost no one admits to being a farmer, construction worker, plumber or other salt-of-the-earth working man like that.
Like this blog?
Brosephus™
November 9th, 2012
10:52 am
Foreigners – non U.S. citizens (from anywhere) Coming across the border into the U.S. without the proper entry papers is illegal but just not that well enforced.
I’ve gotta call bullsh*t on that one. What nationalities come across the border without the proper entry papers? That would be mostly Central American nationalities. That said, how do you account for the undocumented Italians, Irish, Brazilians, Africans, Europeans, and Asians living in this country?
flagboy?
November 9th, 2012
10:54 am
I have never watched an episode of Hannity in my life, but I’d be willing someone could verify he regularly has liberals on his show as well. I don’t think that makes much difference in how balanced it is when you get the last word. I think Fox is full of crap, but many other news organizations are as well.
clem
November 9th, 2012
10:54 am
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/oct/10/facebook-posts/viral-facebook-post-ceo-worker-pay-ratio-has-obscu/
ceos and upper management have made out like bandits over the years….
the evil rich don’t play by the same game they expect their employees (who are producers too) to follow …..comprende
my guess is redistribution would not be as necessary if the playing field more level. note the ceo comp in other countries.
nobody wants to harm the small business owner…..maybe the cap should be raised, but for folks like mitt who barely pay (he did not have guts to show his other tax returns where speculation was they used charity loophole to pay next to nothing) and those bs hedge fund managers…..give me a break
Joe Hussein Mama
November 9th, 2012
10:55 am
Flagboy — “quotes are yours.”
Yes, they are. I pointed out that I *didn’t* use that rhetoric during the Bush administration, since you seem to have completely forgotten where thid discussion came from.
You conjectured that I *had*. You were wrong.
“And no, I don’t have the same choice with church.”
Yes, you do. The fact that you don’t care to *exercise* that choice is neither here nor there.
“If I don’t want to go, I don’t go. If i want to leave the US, it certainly isn’t that simple (which, I wouldn’t want to do anyway, but you brought it up).”
Simplicity is irrelevant. Degree of difficulty is irrelevant. The choice is there. If you choose not to exercise that choice, the fault lies with you.
“Comparing the two is faulty logic.”
No, it’s not. It’s quite simple and elegant logic.
Once again, the fact that *you* choose not to exercise a choice that you have does not demonstrate that no choice exists.
Brosephus™
November 9th, 2012
10:56 am
So when thinking about the vilification of the evil rich who “don’t pay there fair share”, the fact puts in perspective that raising taxes on that class alone is only going to get us so far (of course that 100% is not realistic nor even proposed)
So, if it’s not realistic or even proposed, why use it? That’s what I don’t understand. Maybe it’s not meant for me to understand.
I see zero evidence that the DEMS will agree to take on the tactics to reform entitlement expenditures
When you’re not looking for something, you will never find it.
the exaggeration that the GOP wanted to throw granny off the cliff
Blame Citizen’s United. After all, that was a SuperPAC that started that crap.
Morality?
November 9th, 2012
10:56 am
Occupy – I hate to bust your bubble but if you truly believe Obama is CENTER then you are left of center. Your compass is off.
Joe Hussein Mama
November 9th, 2012
10:57 am
G. Heathen — “Like this blog?”
I think we have quite a few retirees. And Redneck Convert claims to drive a beer truck.
RB claims to own a business but won’t say what it is.
TaxPayer
November 9th, 2012
11:00 am
mama says is having a bad hair day.
Joe Hussein Mama
November 9th, 2012
11:05 am
gone upstairs
Morality?
November 9th, 2012
11:06 am
You are the one with the rising blood pressure. You don’t have what it takes to get me worked up – but keep DREAMING.
clem
November 9th, 2012
11:07 am
redcoat, a compromise using SB as framework….roughly 2-3 in cuts (glidepath with triggers) for 1 in new revenue (higher rates for high income folks say $1m with protections for small business not hedge funds). then a 2 yr drop dead date on entitlement and tax reform if possible. hopefully that would mean broadening tax base and possibly lowering corporate and individ taxes but cost/benefitting all loopholes in tax code.
GT
November 9th, 2012
11:08 am
Cosby I think the country is dropping because the south which is a third world country in disguise is having way too much influence on the rest of the country for what they bring to the table. The talk radio shows are like the old revival broadcast you would get late at night, screaming and breathing where you could hear them without the radio, they are so loud, in that chant, on your car radio driving to or from college deep in the country. They now stir up the weak minded and characters of the south and places like the south in makeup. The right wing, tea party, tail is wagging the dog, they have no filter, no vetting process to cull the poison from the fruit and they are destroying both their party and the country to feed their uneducated paranoia. They send rough as cob representative to the house who throw the word liar around with absolutely no respect or substance, they just like the way they sound saying that word, liar. They are the type who poses quick drawing their guns in a full mirror pretending they are cowboys. They bully their own, and we sit with a third world credit rating today because of them. If they represent the majority of this country we deserve to be a third world nation and looking for a rung below that. Classless, mindless, dime store bullies, found in any banana republic report and southern dirt road.
Nunna Yobinnes
November 9th, 2012
11:14 am
GT, if northerners really feel that way about southerners, why didn’t they just allow the south to secede? Then the north could carry on with their higher level of intellect and morility and not be bothered with all the southern miscreants?
Nunna Yobinnes
November 9th, 2012
11:14 am
morality not morility
flagboy?
November 9th, 2012
11:14 am
Joe – your original argument that conservatives support ministers taking from his/her congregation shows conservatives as being hypocrits was a stretch a few pages ago, and it’s still a stretch now.
And writing not wanting to go to church is the same as moving to another country as the same is a stretch as well.
Morality?
November 9th, 2012
11:15 am
I do not support Obama’s socialist engineering. I do wish for Obama and Congress to get a clue and a policy and plan to reduce the Fed debt and help our country to economic recovery. If the Fed debt is ONE CENT lower at the end of Obama’s 2nd term I will admit that I was wrong and Obama was a great Prez. with the economy. Wishful thinking?
Ivan
November 9th, 2012
11:15 am
“2) We need to “have a conversation with” not “talk down to” folks that are not exactly like us.”
This actually belongs on the left side of the spectrum. If any party is condescending to those whom they disagree with, it’s Democrat/Liberal.
Morality?
November 9th, 2012
11:17 am
If you don’t like the south you are free to go.
Nunna Yobinnes
November 9th, 2012
11:19 am
Right on Morality. Don’t let the door hit you in the rear on the way out.
Morality?
November 9th, 2012
11:19 am
If you wish to leave the south and promise not to return I will loan you my TOM TOM with the directions to Vermont.
Nunna Yobinnes
November 9th, 2012
11:20 am
Nah, don’t let them go to Vermont. Make them go to New Jersey.
Morality?
November 9th, 2012
11:21 am
Vermont is a beautiful state (flowers and stuff) and you will feel at home there with Ben & Jerry.
Welcome to the Occupation
November 9th, 2012
11:22 am
Morality? “I do not support Obama’s socialist engineering.”
Again, there is nothing whatsoever about Obama that is even light years from being “socialist”.
And if you insist on believing otherwise despite all evidence to the contrary, then that just demonstrates your abject ignorance, stupidity, etc.
Nunna Yobinnes
November 9th, 2012
11:23 am
Yeah, but I was thinking it is too pretty for them. Newark, Philly, NYC would be better options for them.
Morality?
November 9th, 2012
11:24 am
Well I was just suggesting Vermont because it is more “progressive” (Socialist) than New Jersey and it has fewer electoral votes.
Nunna Yobinnes
November 9th, 2012
11:25 am
OK.
Morality?
November 9th, 2012
11:27 am
How about D.C. then? That should fit all of your necessary criteria and there is a lovely high crime rate there….. you know, big city atmosphere and all.
Morality?
November 9th, 2012
11:31 am
Occupation – Like I said – your opinion of Obama is clouded because you too are left of center. Move to the middle and then you will understand. Obama is a big gub’ment SOCIALIST and he hangs with socialists. Socialists were his mentors. He was raised by socialists – it’s not all his fault.
Morality?
November 9th, 2012
11:32 am
Got to go now but it has been pleasant. (smiley face applied for)
RF
November 9th, 2012
11:34 am
I liked the last line of French’s article:
“We have the better message. Now we have to make sure our fellow citizens see it as empowering, not terrifying”
They’re gonna have to work a LOT harder if they think their message will be anything but terrifying for a long time to come…
Nunna Yobinnes
November 9th, 2012
11:38 am
Again I ask. There are a lot of references as to the “Bush tax cuts that benefit the wealthy” but no one seems to be able to enumerate them. The Kool-Aid propaganda machine at work. When so many lower income and middle class people pay no taxes at all, how does that favor the rich? Another question – Why should dividend income be double taxed? Interest income isn’t double taxed.
RF
November 9th, 2012
11:38 am
JAY- Could you set the filter to catch the word “socialist”? I’m about tired of hearing it, especially from people who have no idea what it means. I’m also tired of the convenience of that word to replace many others that would show the truly negative racial stereotypes so many of these people ascribe to and just don’t want to say them out loud.
clem
November 9th, 2012
11:42 am
ny, try doing some independent research…. try this
http://www.salon.com/2012/06/21/who_benefits_from_bushs_tax_cuts/
couple that with recent cbo report and crs report on impact of keeping taxes higher on upper income folks
Nunna Yobinnes
November 9th, 2012
11:52 am
Clem, the report you referred me to did not give any indication of how the rich folks benefit. They are, as always just vague references designed to stir up liberals against the evil rich. The only benefit that I can recall off hand is the tax treatment of capital gains and dividends. The tax rate for those types of income is reduced across the board. Dividend income has already been taxed once at the corporate level. Middle class people have dividend income and capital gains too. (At least we used to, anyway.)
clem
November 9th, 2012
12:40 pm
guess you don’t understand our basic income tax system in first place. there was progressivity built in long time ago. while i would agree that only increasing rates on a certain group is unfair, i would point out that based on many reports upper income folks are getting disproportionate share of income as well. so what is fair. i can merely state that program cuts will likely impact lower and middle income folks more than the rich. that is their skin in this round of the game. so what is the upper income’s proportionate share of skin? and what is the impact.
by way of illustration, a company i am aware of several years ago gave raises with a floor and a cap (assuming certain productivity measures). the logic was a straight percentage raise in tight times would give upper pay scale folks more coverage of basic necessities or cost of living. thus, in effort to help lower pay scale folks a floor was provided which gave them a higher % of raise not absolute dollars. was that fair. guess in eye of beholder. but even boortz and his fair tax crowd have i think a minimum prebate or whatever (i am no expert there).
so if you only do cuts to programs, it would seem the lower/middle income folks are more greatly impacted than higher income folks. so a slightly higher rate (under clinton when times were good) for upper income folks sort of levels the pain index. this is a generalization but i think that might explaing to you.
i am sure you understood this before , but maybe it helps.
but surely you must be suspicious of all the loopholes created for wealthy with their various trusts loopholes not available to low/moderate wealth individuals. maybe you can show me some cost/benefit to those bs loopholes. the rich bribed congress to do many of these, both parties.
Marc
November 9th, 2012
12:45 pm
The media/journalist are suppose to be unbiased and objective. If they aren’t they are propagandist clear and simple. When the media become propagandist you have people in power like Stalin and Hitler.
clem
November 9th, 2012
12:57 pm
well that’s why they have jay and kyle…….but who is more correct?
old style journalism….digging and staying with story seems to be gone these days of short attention span and instant gratification
Joe Hussein Mama
November 9th, 2012
12:58 pm
“Morality” — “You are the one with the rising blood pressure. You don’t have what it takes to get me worked up – but keep DREAMING.
Sonny, as loudly as you’re screaming about something that you are — once again — wrong about, don’t even bother to deny it.
Being here without documents isn’t a crime. Call ICE. They’ll tell you so.
Joe Hussein Mama
November 9th, 2012
12:59 pm
Flagboy — “Joe – your original argument that conservatives support ministers taking from his/her congregation shows conservatives as being hypocrits was a stretch a few pages ago, and it’s still a stretch now.”
Not in the least. It’s simply an uncomfortable truth that conservatives won’t confront.
“And writing not wanting to go to church is the same as moving to another country as the same is a stretch as well.”
I am pleased to once again accept your concession and surrender.
dbm
November 10th, 2012
8:12 am
ByteMe – Got ilk?
November 9th, 2012
7:47 am
Is that too little indoctrination from their side, or too much from the other?
Wouldn’t breaking the public school monopoly make it harder for any one point of view to indoctrinate everyone?
dbm
November 10th, 2012
8:19 am
Brosephus™
November 9th, 2012
7:55 am
And not enough people realize yet that the way to get politicians the f**k out of the system is to separate state and education.