Tracing the local origins of the vote-fraud myth
Those who have followed Fulton County politics for a long time will recognize the name Hans von Spakovsky. Back in the ’90s, as a local lawyer active in Republican circles, he started raising allegations of serious voting fraud that somehow never quite seemed to pan out.
Hans von Spakovsky
Apparently, however, somebody somewhere recognized that the fraud allegation itself, even if merely a myth never bolstered by evidence, would be useful in justifying a push for more restrictive ballot laws that might tamp down Democratic turnout. It allowed von Spakovsky to take his schtick national, in time nailing a job in the voting rights section of the Bush Justice Department in which he tried — vainly, despite all the resources of the federal government — to establish that in-person vote fraud posed a clear and present danger to American democracy.
It might be too much to say that von Spakovsky singlehandedly created the mythology of voter fraud, but it clearly created him, serving as a hobbyhorse that he rode to prominence in conservative circles.
Jane Mayer, writing in the current New Yorker, tells his story well, along the way documenting multiple examples in which cases of in-person voting fraud cited by von Spakovsky seem to melt away like desert mirages upon closer inspection. His career is a great example of the power, and the danger, of a useful lie.
ADDENDUM: While we’re on the general topic, it might be useful to try to squelch early, fringe stirrings on the left alleging a conservative conspiracy to fix voting machines in Ohio. As the theory is spun at Truthout.org:
“Through a closely held equity fund called Solamere, Mitt Romney and his wife, son and brother are major investors in an investment firm called H.I.G. Capital. H.I.G. in turn holds a majority share and three out of five board members in Hart Intercivic, a company that owns the notoriously faulty electronic voting machines that will count the ballots in swing state Ohio November 7. Hart machines will also be used elsewhere in the United States.
In other words, a candidate for the presidency of the United States, and his brother, wife and son, have a straight-line financial interest in the voting machines that could decide this fall’s election. These machines cannot be monitored by the public. But they will help decide who “owns” the White House.
The claim is nonsense and without backing in fact. If you’re going to make charges or even raise suspicions of that grave nature, you need much more than a knee-bone-connected-to-the-thigh-bone argument of the sort offered here.
Otherwise, you’re no better than the von Spakovskys of the world.
– Jay Bookman
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725 comments Add your comment
They BOTH suck
October 23rd, 2012
4:59 pm
Bro
You will not get that past the “Big Brother” folks………
Alex Jones and the infowars brigade would be on the march
Thulsa Doom
October 23rd, 2012
5:00 pm
Pizzaman,
Enough with the retired Navy bit. I also am ex Navy so I happen to know a little bit about Naval warfare myself. And apparently you haven’t been keeping up with things. China is working on a carrier killer missile that could conceivably take out a carrier and take away all that firepower that you speak of. So you’re no more of an armchair admiral than myself or anyone else on here if you didn’t know that.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/dec/27/china-deploying-carrier-sinking-ballistic-missile/
But I will tell you one thing I know about the Navy that Obama doesn’t know as commander in chief. I know how what the hell a Navy corpsman is. And I know he is not a corpse man.
Brosephus™
October 23rd, 2012
5:01 pm
To get back however briefly to the topic at hand, we’re almost 200 comments in and as far as I can recall, no one on the right has even attempted to offer hard evidence of voting fraud’s existence.
I know I don’t claim to be right or left, but I did offer proof for whatever it’s worth. It was too much to read for Ben, but the News21 report is about the most extensive one to date that I’ve seen on voter fraud.
Mighty Righty
October 23rd, 2012
5:01 pm
Below is a real origin of Democrat fraud that happened well before the one cited here. In this case there is real evedence of voter fraud although the conclusions may be faulty. Copied from Wikipedia for the enlightenment of those too young to remember when JFK may have stolen his election. ThIs contaons real not myth based examples.
Many Republicans (including Nixon and Eisenhower) believed that Kennedy had benefited from vote fraud, especially in Texas, where Kennedy’s running mate Lyndon B. Johnson was Senator, and Illinois, home of Mayor Richard Daley’s powerful Chicago political machine.[25] These two states are important because if Nixon had carried both, he would have won the election in the Electoral College. Republican Senators such as Everett Dirksen and Barry Goldwater also believed that vote fraud played a role in the election,[24] and they believed that Nixon actually won the national popular vote. Republicans tried and failed to overturn the results in both these states at the time—as well as in nine other states.[30] Some journalists also later claimed that mobster Sam Giancana and his Chicago crime syndicate played a role in Kennedy’s victory in Illinois.[30]
.
Kennedy won Illinois by less than 9,000 votes out of 4.75 million cast, or a margin of 0.2%.[25] However, Nixon carried 92 of the state’s 101 counties, and Kennedy’s victory in Illinois came from the city of Chicago, where Mayor Richard J. Daley held back much of Chicago’s vote until the late morning hours of November 9. The efforts of Daley and the powerful Chicago Democratic organization gave Kennedy an extraordinary Cook County victory margin of 450,000 votes—more than 10% of Chicago’s 1960 population of 3.55 million,[In Texas, Kennedy defeated Nixon by a narrow 51% to 49% margin, or 46,000 votes.[25] Some Republicans argued that Johnson’s formidable political machine had stolen enough votes in counties along the Mexican border to give Kennedy the victory. Kennedy’s defenders, such as his speechwriter and special assistant Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr., have argued that Kennedy’s margin in Texas (46,000 votes) was simply too large for vote fraud to have been a decisive factor, although cases of voter fraud were discovered there. For example, Fannin County had only 4,895 registered voters, yet 6,138 votes were cast in that county, three-quarters for Kennedy.[24] In an Angelina County precinct, Kennedy received a higher number of votes than the total number of registered voters in the precinct.[24] When Republicans demanded a statewide recount, they learned that the state Board of Elections, whose members were all Democrats, had already certified Kennedy as the official winner in Texas.[24]
Doggone/GA
October 23rd, 2012
5:01 pm
“Frankly, I don’t know which is worse: Intelligent people pretending to be dumb, or dumb people pretending to be intelligent”
Or, as someone once said: the difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it’s limits.
Brosephus™
October 23rd, 2012
5:02 pm
They BOTH
That’s why I’m not good politician material, because I’d tell them to go somewhere and screw themselves to sleep.
Paul
October 23rd, 2012
5:02 pm
Why do people believe this nonsense?
Because they want to. Even if they don’t believe the nonsense, some will say ‘well, it sounds like a good idea. So what’s the harm?” Personally, I’d be suspicious of people who go to such great lengths to put in place a cure for that which is not a problem.
Especially when one of the earliest proponents of the idea couldn’t, even as an insider, get the Bush Justice Department to take him seriously.
That’s the BUSH Justice Department. You know, BUSH? The guy who carried a state by a couple hundred votes, tops? Whose brother was the Republican governor of the state? Even after all that they didn’t take this stuff seriously and seek to cure the ‘problem’ that nearly cost big brother the election.
And these are the guys who complain about big government and regulations?!!?
____________________________
Afternoon, Brosephus
Poster yesterday noted that just as is true with his child, for some posters any attention, positive or negative, is attention and that’s all they crave. Bless you for pumping up someone’s self esteem.
______________________________________________________________
Jay
“Ben, you cannot be as dim in real life as you pretend to be here.”
Apropos of the James Bond 50th anniversary:
“Never Say Never”
They BOTH suck
October 23rd, 2012
5:02 pm
RB
So if what you are saying is rampant, you actually believe that the person stealing the mail is always voting before the person who has had is mail (id) stolen?
I doubt that your scenario is viable enough to throw elections, but if it makes you feel good about yourself to think it does……… rock on dude
Last time you brought up this phony BS, you said it in a general sense of people stealing info from other’s mailbox.
Today it is your neighbor…………
Stay consistent my friend……….
Either way it is bs
Ben Shockley
October 23rd, 2012
5:02 pm
“we’re almost 200 comments in and as far as I can recall, no one on the right has even attempted to offer hard evidence of voting fraud’s existence.”
Like I said in post #3, you libs vehemently oppose any attempts to document eligibility, so it’s going to be pretty hard to prove fraud.
Funny stuff Jay
Thulsa Doom
October 23rd, 2012
5:02 pm
“Doom, in your density, you spew nonsense”- keep up
The ironical one speaks.
jewcowboy
October 23rd, 2012
5:03 pm
“six-figure-income guys like me”
While I don’t call into question this posters veracity as to his income, I do call into question the quality of his upbringing. Any good Southerner with half-way decent parents would know discussing ones income with anyone other than your tax attorney or spouse is boorish.
TaxPayer
October 23rd, 2012
5:03 pm
No, but it’s an indicator of attitude and work ethic.
Quick, someone Madoff with Ben’s common sense too!
josef
October 23rd, 2012
5:04 pm
getalife
“ben is broke because people with money don’t brag about it or they get robbed.”
Well, that’s what I was taught…
BEN
Then why talk about your income? What “status” are you trying to achieve? And I never said anything about WHAT’s in the family tree or WHO I run with…you made the assumption. It hints at wannabe envy, imeoiauo…
Jay
October 23rd, 2012
5:04 pm
“Like I said in post #3, you libs vehemently oppose any attempts to document eligibility, so it’s going to be pretty hard to prove fraud.
I’ll take that as further confirmation that you have no evidence whatsoever.
Ben Shockley
October 23rd, 2012
5:05 pm
“Any good Southerner with half-way decent parents would know discussing ones income with anyone other than your tax attorney or spouse is boorish.”
It’s the same with sexual orientation.
Ben Shockley
October 23rd, 2012
5:06 pm
“I’ll take that as further confirmation that you have no evidence whatsoever”
I think Might Righty already gave you a nice big fact wedgie on that one, JB.
Mary Elizabeth
October 23rd, 2012
5:06 pm
Voter suppression is wrong, is anti-American, imo, and is occurring in our nation in this election cycle.
In the following video, Sen. Bernie Sanders describes what Republicans have been doing to suppress voting by potential Democratic voters, on Rachel Maddow’s Show:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuUQekyEaHs&feature=related
jewcowboy
October 23rd, 2012
5:06 pm
Howdy Paul,
“You know, BUSH?”
Not for a very long time.
Thulsa Doom
October 23rd, 2012
5:07 pm
“I’ve made the suggestion of switching to biometric registration”
Aw hell. You done went and got all high tech on me.
They BOTH suck
October 23rd, 2012
5:07 pm
Thulsa
I could have missed it, but are the Joint Chiefs and top Navy admirals requesting anything close to what you are implying.
I know you served in the Navy. Thanks for your service, but did your job in the Navy numerous years ago qualify you to make assessments in terms of Navy requirements today?
Top brass might be calling for it, but just because Romney or whomever says it, doesn’t make it so. Of course if the top brass is saying it is so, it could be a valid issue.
Jay
October 23rd, 2012
5:07 pm
Mighty, although I haven’t studied that case closely, I’ll concede at the very least the possibility of such fraud in the 1960 election.
More than half a century ago, and NOT involving voter impersonation but potentially the large-scale stuffing of ballot boxes, etc.
USMC
October 23rd, 2012
5:08 pm
“USMC … Obama saved us from going into a depression….. a result of Republican Spending and actions.”–Peter
not intended to be factual statement…
TaxPayer
October 23rd, 2012
5:08 pm
As soon as cons deliver something more than faith-based proof of voter fraud, I’ll agree that it is a potential issue. Start with something simple such as a tally of voters that exceeds the number of registered voters or a tally that exceeds the historical norms for voter turnout. Something more than “I had a dream,” as existence proof.
Brosephus™
October 23rd, 2012
5:09 pm
Paul
I feel like having a bit of fun today and turning the table on the blog bullies. You’ll note that the challenge I was given was met with evidence, yet my challenge went unanswered. People love the attention but hate it when they’re beat at their own game.
————————-
Jay
I’ll take that as further confirmation that you have no evidence whatsoever.
He acknowledged that when he refused to read the link I gave him. Had he bothered to do that, he could have easily found this case here.
http://jacksonville.com/news/georgia/2010-06-24/story/2-camden-county-registrars-office-employees-suspended
Ms. Crews ended up paying a $300 fine in that case.
jewcowboy
October 23rd, 2012
5:09 pm
“It’s the same with sexual orientation.”
Nope…straight people discuss their sexual orientation on a daily basis.
josef
October 23rd, 2012
5:09 pm
jewcowboy
C’est très gauche….un paysan, je te dis…
They BOTH suck
October 23rd, 2012
5:10 pm
Well damn. If it happened in 1960, that surely is evidence that it has occurred on a vast scale every election since that time………
Ben Shockley
October 23rd, 2012
5:11 pm
From the Washington Post…
Maryland Democrat quits congressional race amid vote fraud allegations
By Ben Pershing
This post has been updated
A Maryland Democratic candidate quit her congressional race Monday after her own party told state officials that she had committed fraud by voting in both Maryland and Florida in recent elections.
Wendy Rosen, a small-business owner running against freshman Rep. Andy Harris (R) in the Eastern Shore-based 1st Congressional District, released a statement saying that “with great regret, and much sorrow” she was resigning from the contest.
“Personal issues have made this the hardest decision that I have had to make,” Rosen said
Rosen’s announcement came the same day the state Democratic party released a letter to state Attorney General Douglas Gansler and state prosecutors reporting the allegations against Rosen.
“The Maryland Democratic Party has discovered that Ms. Rosen has been registered to vote in both Florida and Maryland since at least 2006; that she in fact voted in the 2006 general election both in Florida and Maryland; and that she voted in the presidential preference primaries held in both Florida and Maryland in 2008,” wrote Yvette Lewis, the state party chair. “This information is based on an examination of the voter files from both states. We believe that this is a clear violation of Maryland law and urge the appropriate office to conduct a full investigation.”
A senior Maryland Democrat said the party had been tipped off this weekend by someone within the party about Rosen’s potential issue. After checking the allegation, the party contacted Rosen on Monday morning and urged her to quit.
Local Democratic committees in the 1st district will now meet and vote on a new candidate to replace Rosen on the ballot. The new name must be submitted to the state by Sept. 27.
Regardless of his opponent, Harris is considered a safe bet for reelection. Though the 1st district was previously competitive — Democrat Frank Kratovil won the seat in 2008 before being ousted by Harris in 2010 — it was redrawn to be safer for Republicans after the 2010 Census.
Voter fraud has been a heated political issue, both in Maryland and across the country. Republicans have frequently accused Democrats of turning their backs on the practice, while Democrats say the GOP uses alleged fraud as a way to keep Democrats from the polls.
“If the Maryland Democrat Party is willing to push one of its own candidates out of the race due to voter fraud, I’m sure this means they will join us in an effort to purge the rolls across Maryland of illegal immigrants, the deceased, and those otherwise unqualified to vote,” said David Ferguson, executive director of the Maryland Republican Party. “It is a sad state of affairs that Democrat voters considered Wendy Rosen to be their model citizen for the First District and represent them on November’s ballot.”
As recently as Sunday, Rosen still believed her campaign was going full-speed ahead.
“My trip to Charlotte was incredible!” she wrote on her Facebook page. “I didn’t get a moment on the floor of the arena … I spent all of my time hunting for campaign support! Everyone was so helpful from Jan Schakowsky and Ben Cardin to all of the women’s groups, environmental groups, jewish organizations. I feel re-energized for this last 8 weeks! Forward, not Backward!”
jewcowboy
October 23rd, 2012
5:12 pm
josef,
C’est vrai.
josef
October 23rd, 2012
5:12 pm
BEN
Not at all…discussing the orientation is kosher…discussing the details ain’t…discussing finances, economics, etc is fine, discussing the dollar and cents details at the personal level, ain’t…
Thulsa Doom
October 23rd, 2012
5:12 pm
Jay,
As I’ve read it there are plenty of historians that believe that there was rampant voter fraud aided and abetted by the mob in Chicago that swayed the 1960 presidential election. Do you deny that this is taken very seriously and likely happened?
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=voter+fraud+in+1960+presidential+election&oq=voter+fraud+in+1960+presidential+election&gs_l=serp.12…23066.39092.0.41474.49.46.2.0.0.0.879.9151.1j25j7j3j1j1j2.40.0.les%3Bcqn%2Crate_low%3D0-035%2Crate_high%3D0-035%2Cmin_length%3D2%2Ccconf%3D1-2%2Csecond_pass%3Dfalse%2Cnum_suggestions%3D1%2Cignore_bad_origquery%3Dtrue..0.0…1c.1.lJFzUJCfwmk&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=9838a97b1857074&bpcl=35466521&biw=1058&bih=464
Brosephus™
October 23rd, 2012
5:13 pm
Doom
Biometrics do two things. It verifies people who are registered to vote. It can also be used to identify foreign nationals who are not eligible to vote.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US-VISIT
Initially, only visitors who required a visa inserted in their passport were included in the US-VISIT program. However, since September 30, 2004, visitors eligible for the Visa Waiver Program have also been required to use the US-VISIT program. Beginning January 18, 2009, most non-U.S. citizens (including lawful permanent residents) are subject to US-VISIT requirements.[5]
The United States and Canada have special agreements for visa-free travel, and currently most Canadians are not subject to US-VISIT. U.S. citizens are not required to be digitally fingerscanned or photographed when they enter United States territory. The Department of State began issuing biometric passports to its citizens in 2006.
Paul
October 23rd, 2012
5:13 pm
Pizzaman
“As retired Navy I think we need to cut 2 AF fighter wings and build 2 more carrier battle groups”
Military hardware is supposed to be bought based upon threat assessments floated up from the lower levels, combined with long-term looks carried out by senior leaders. In other words, as the perceived threat changes, strategies and resources allocated should change with them.
I once took a look at the relative share of the DoD research, development, test and engineering; procurement and the maintenance/sustainment appropriations. Guess what? Over a number of years, even thru the huge Reagan defense buildup, the relative share of funds claimed by each of the services was generally within a few points of where it was previously.
In other words, money rolled in and the same share went to each of the services. So guess what’s gonna happen with a couple trillion rolling down the pike?
Ben Shockley
October 23rd, 2012
5:14 pm
“no one on the right has even attempted to offer hard evidence of voting fraud’s existence.”
See above.
Your move…..
Matti
October 23rd, 2012
5:14 pm
Sticking up the teller is the the lamest way of robbing, the most obvious, and the easiest way to get caught stealing from a bank. Ditto for in-person voter fraud. There are many less-obvious ways to steal money from a financial institution, with better ways to cover your tracks and get away. Ditto for other types of election fraud.
The GOP voter suppression laws basically prevent non-thinkers from voting fraudulently in person. The rights of other citizens are collateral damage they deem worth it. Whatevs. I’m sure the 80-yr old woman who can’t vote in 2014 because she couldn’t renew the Georgia drivers license she’s had for 50 years — because she can’t find certified copies of both her birth certificate and her marriage license that the Ga DDS will accept — will understand why she’s no longer allowed to participate. Right? “Put a sock in it and go home, Grandma, before we have your old can hauled to the clink.”
Thulsa Doom
October 23rd, 2012
5:15 pm
they both suck,
I see that you glossed over the fact that very possibly at least one U.S. presidential election could have been decided by fraud. One is enough for me.
jewcowboy
October 23rd, 2012
5:15 pm
josef,
“Not at all”
Someone who was raised well would know these things.
Brosephus™
October 23rd, 2012
5:16 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_P._White
In March 2011, White was indicted on seven felony counts including voter fraud, perjury and theft. He is charged with intentionally voting in the wrong precinct in the primary, continuing to serve on the Fishers council and drawing his salary after moving out of town, and lying about his address on a home loan.[7][8] He was released from a Hamilton County jail after posting a $10,000 bond.[5][9]
Shortly after the news broke, Governor Mitch Daniels and Indiana’s other statewide elected officials urged White to step aside while the charges are pending. Conviction on even one charge would have automatically ousted White as Secretary of State; Indiana, like most states, does not allow convicted felons to hold office.[9]
….
On February 4, 2012, a jury found White guilty of six of seven felony charges, including false registration, voting in another precinct, submitting a false ballot, theft, and two counts of perjury. He was acquitted on one fraud charge.[18] The felony convictions automatically removed White from office, though he presumably could have regained the post if his convictions had been downgraded to misdemeanors and Rosenberg’s ruling awarding the office to Osili had been overturned on appeal.[19] Daniels immediately appointed White’s deputy, Jerry Bonnet, as interim Secretary of State.
On February 23, Hamilton County Superior Court Judge Steven Nation sentenced White to one year of house arrest, 30 hours of community service and a $1,000 fine. Nation refused to downgrade White’s charges to misdemeanors, saying that his actions in the 2010 election were deliberate and therefore “violated the trust of the people.” The conviction ends any chance of White regaining office even if his appeal of Rosenberg’s ruling is successful.[20]
Doggone/GA
October 23rd, 2012
5:16 pm
Heard a story on the news today, on the drive home, about a booklet the Obama campaign has published that is supposed to detail his economic plans for a 2nd term. They interveiwed McCain – who is campagning for Romney, who basically said it doesn’t spell out how or when the budget will be balanced. Funny…he didn’t happen to mention how Romney’s “plan” will do that either.
Paul
October 23rd, 2012
5:17 pm
Mighty Righty 5:01
I believe there’s a difference between recruiting street people to vote and having the local political machines (both parties) lose ballot boxes, forge ballots, etc.
Voter fraud is voter fraud, but how it occurred back in the days of Nixon and Humphrey (and earlier) is not what all these efforts are designed to ‘fix.’
Ben Shockley
October 23rd, 2012
5:17 pm
“Francine Busby Democrat congressional candidate in 50th Congressional District of California may have told more truth than a candidate can say especially if someone has a tape recorder running.
from youtube…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f9vbngizSI
“Everybody can help, yeah, absolutely,
you can all help,” Busby replied, according
to the tape. “You don’t need papers for
voting, you don’t need to be a registered voter to help.”
They BOTH suck
October 23rd, 2012
5:19 pm
Thulsa
Fair enough. Voter fraud in 1960 if it makes you feel good about the issue is proof that it take place on a rampant scale every election…………………..
OK
jewcowboy
October 23rd, 2012
5:19 pm
Funny…those on the right are using something that may or may not have happened 52 years ago as evidence that we need to suppress a right enshrined in our Constitution. P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C.
Thulsa Doom
October 23rd, 2012
5:19 pm
Brocephus,
If your biometrics solution works, is effective and cost effective not just for voting but for documenting illegals from legal guest workers and helping to expand and make the guest worker program more effective for us and for them then I’m cool with that.
RB from Gwinnett
October 23rd, 2012
5:20 pm
BOTH, I didn’t say it was rampant. Those are your words. How much fraud is ok with you knowing 1% matters in most of the elections. See Florida 2000.
What’s the number?
BTW, can you explain why only old democrats can’t seem to get a free ID? There are just as many old R’s and I have never heard one complain about the ID.
RF
October 23rd, 2012
5:20 pm
I did a little math. We have 5,248,095 voters in the state. To move the needle one percentage point would require 52,480.95 fraudulent votes. Just ONE point, so imagine the number it would take to majorly affect the outcome of the presidential election. That would be a monumental task that wouldn’t be worth the probable attention that would be drawn by a major shift in the election outcome. To me, that makes “voter fraud” a ruse that sounds good to the fear-mongers and means little in the end.
Paul
October 23rd, 2012
5:20 pm
jewcowboy
True for many people here, given the level of frustration and need for attention, it would seem….
Keep Up the Good Fight!
October 23rd, 2012
5:21 pm
I see that you glossed over the fact that very possibly at least one U.S. presidential election could have been decided by fraud. One is enough for me.
And it is more than enough for anyone. The sanctity of the vote should be protected but in a manner which actually denies legitimate voters the right to vote and not in such a limited manner that other more likely scenerios are not addressed. But your pout allows you to ignore the impact on those who’s votes you try to deny.
And Ben’s example of a person voting in 2 separate jurisdictions is NOT solved by requiring ID.
They BOTH suck
October 23rd, 2012
5:21 pm
Thulsa
Is it fair to say that since there have been Republicans involved in voter suppression that is it rampant and takes place every election on some grand scale?
Of course it is not. When it is known and verified, by all means bring out the examples, but that is not evidence it is being done by either party on some grand scale on a regular basis.
But if you want to believe it. That is surely your choice.
josef
October 23rd, 2012
5:22 pm
jewcowboy
Oh, Ben may well have been brought up right…he just turned his back on it…I imagine Mama tried…
Paul
October 23rd, 2012
5:22 pm
Brosephus 5:09
That’s simply because all you did was deflect, don’tcha’ know?
jewcowboy
October 23rd, 2012
5:22 pm
Paul,
“True for many people here, given the level of frustration and need for attention, it would seem….”
Harsh!
Thulsa Doom
October 23rd, 2012
5:22 pm
“Voter fraud in 1960 if it makes you feel good about the issue is proof that it take place on a rampant scale every election”
They both suck,
For the 2nd time you are again putting words in my mouth. I did not say that it is rampant or even frequent.I expressly said the opposite earlier- that in my view its “very small”- Just that it can decide some important and very close elections and that having even one U.S. presidential election stolen is enough.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
October 23rd, 2012
5:22 pm
JCB, and for 52 years it really was not an issue…until they awoke to the concept that voter suppression may help them win elections.
getalife
October 23rd, 2012
5:23 pm
The gop attempt to cheat right before the election with voter id failed.
They have to lie, cheat and steal to win.
Cheaters never win.
Look at Lance Armstrong.
Oscar
October 23rd, 2012
5:23 pm
There is a correlation between IQ and financial success. Several studies have shown that.
There are of couse exceptions, but the correlation stands.
They BOTH suck
October 23rd, 2012
5:24 pm
RB
Prove your assertion about stealing of mail and others then I will be glad to discuss further issues.
Not going to play the RB gets to deflect and expect questions answered when he is unwilling to answer himself game.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
October 23rd, 2012
5:24 pm
Just that it can decide some important and very close elections and that having even one U.S. presidential election stolen is enough.
But changing outcomes by voter suppression is acceptable.
jewcowboy
October 23rd, 2012
5:24 pm
Keep!
“until they awoke to the concept that voter suppression may help them win elections”
Bingo!
Towncrier
October 23rd, 2012
5:24 pm
“It might be too much to say that von Spakovsky singlehandedly created the mythology of voter fraud, but it clearly created him, serving as a hobbyhorse that he rode to prominence in conservative circles.”
Ah…the old children weren’t molested because it wasn’t reported argument. Typical nonsense from an unthinking liberal. The “mythology” Jay and his ilk want to create is that because fraud via impersonation is probably rare, voter fraud in general is rare.
=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-foster/democrats-benefit-from-illegal-immigrants-voting_b_1418523.html
=http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/decision2012/selling-votes-is-common-type-of-election-fraud/2012/10/01/f8f5045a-071d-11e2-81ba-ffe35a7b6542_story.html
They BOTH suck
October 23rd, 2012
5:25 pm
Thulsa
My bad. So is it done by the individual on their own accord or done by the party? Both?
VoterFraudDoesHappen
October 23rd, 2012
5:25 pm
Voter Fraud. IT DOES HAPPEN.
http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/24/12-charged-with-voter-fraud-in-georgia-election/
See.
Oscar
October 23rd, 2012
5:25 pm
Who knows is there is voter fraud. It’s like Mel Gibson said in Conspiracy Theory.
“Of couse nobody knows about it, that’s why it’s a secret conspiracy.”
In the movie he was right. There was a conspiracy.
josef
October 23rd, 2012
5:25 pm
Okay, since Big Daddy wants us to get back to voter fraud. Been going on as long as we’ve been having elections. It’s a matter of degree, and compared to the Gilded Age or Tammany Hall, we’ve come a long way, Baby…
Thulsa Doom
October 23rd, 2012
5:25 pm
“Is it fair to say that since there have been Republicans involved in voter suppression that is it rampant and takes place every election on some grand scale?”
they both suck,
When I think of voter suppression I think of the poll tax and Jim Crow laws by DEMOCRATS that kept black voters from the polls in the segregationist south. Seems to me the Dems have quite a history of voter suppression themselves.
Skip
October 23rd, 2012
5:26 pm
I wonder what USMC thinks USMC means?
josef
October 23rd, 2012
5:27 pm
jewcowboy
If Paul’s being harsh, it must be Tuesday…
Thulsa Doom
October 23rd, 2012
5:28 pm
“But changing outcomes by voter suppression is acceptable”-keep up the sorry fight
You’ll have to ask the Democrats keep. Cause it seems to me that 100 years or so of Democrat Jim Crow laws and poll taxes did plenty of suppression.
Fedup
October 23rd, 2012
5:28 pm
Kicking a legit name out of the voting list isn’t it voter fraud too in reverse? For example the congressman from Pen.
Paul
October 23rd, 2012
5:28 pm
Skip
You See Me Conned?
They BOTH suck
October 23rd, 2012
5:28 pm
Thulsa
Nice deflection to the 1960s. Sort of like your 1960 example……………
Keep swinging
Paul
October 23rd, 2012
5:29 pm
jewcowboy
ohmygoodness… working at home I lose track of day of the week and what week and what month and all that…. but dang! josef is correct!
As usual…..
They BOTH suck
October 23rd, 2012
5:30 pm
Thulsa
Was that party official convicted of suppression in Marlyand a Dem or Repub? Was it in the 60s or two years ago?
How about the official in Indiana?
Again, if it makes you feel good to go back to the 60s…….. knock yourself out
josef
October 23rd, 2012
5:31 pm
BOTH
Unmentionable says the reason there’s so much reference to the 1960s on the blog is because most of us are in our second childhood…
They BOTH suck
October 23rd, 2012
5:31 pm
Out for a jog……..
Keep chasing those fraudsters……….
There are everywhere, right?
Paul
October 23rd, 2012
5:32 pm
josef
You made it out of the first? What’s it been like?
Thulsa Doom
October 23rd, 2012
5:33 pm
they both suck,
So if there was voter suppression or voter fraud in the past then it does not apply to the present and has no relevannce? Why? Because it doesn’t support your narrative? Well then if nothing bad ever done is the past applies to today then ya’ll are going to lose the race card as well as a lot of other cards.
josef
October 23rd, 2012
5:35 pm
PAUL
Not all it’s cracked up to be…that’s why I’m going back where I came from before I DO turn into Helen Thomas…
RB from Gwinnett
October 23rd, 2012
5:35 pm
What if I told you I personally know of 600 R votes that were added in Florida in 2000, do you care? It’s a really small percentage in Florida, right?!!
Keep Up the Good Fight!
October 23rd, 2012
5:35 pm
You’ll have to ask the Democrats keep. Cause it seems to me that 100 years or so of Democrat Jim Crow laws and poll taxes did plenty of suppression.
yes they did…and those conservatives are at it again. Which is also why the Voting Rights Act was adopted in the 1960’s. So, speedoboy, since you are so troubled by it when it occurred 100 years ago, why in all your overglorified claims of intelligence, are you willing to ignore it now when it has been demonstrated that actual in person voting fraud is so rare as to be essentially non-existent but the voter suppression impact of voter ID laws very very real and dispropotionally impacting the very group you feign outrage for in your 100 year old example.
Or shall we just say that Fred has a hat for you to wear?
Paul
October 23rd, 2012
5:36 pm
josef
That’s a visual I can’t quite seem to get my head around -
bman
October 23rd, 2012
5:36 pm
If it weren’t for ACORN, I’m not so sure voter fraud would such a hot topic. How long we’re they around? 30-40 years? And why do they no longer exist ?
They BOTH suck
October 23rd, 2012
5:37 pm
Thulsa
No it doesn’t support your narrative. Producing evidence of fraud in 1960 is not, I SAY AGAIN, IS NOT evidence that it is occurring today. It proves that it occurred at that time.
You can’t go to a court of law and tell a judge……. “Sir we are not sure if this person committed fraud, but we do know it occurred in 1960, so I am sure this person is guilty in 2012″……..
That will not work. Each incident and the accompanying evidence must stand or fall on its own……….. Regardless of your narrative, 1960 proves exactly $HIT today
They BOTH suck
October 23rd, 2012
5:38 pm
Now……. really out for a jog
Thulsa: Keep providing those 1960s examples as evidence of what is occurring in 2012.
You are a regular Perry Mason or maybe a Matlock
peace
Towncrier
October 23rd, 2012
5:38 pm
“Unmentionable says the reason there’s so much reference to the 1960s on the blog is because most of us are in our second childhood…”
Robin William’s quip about this time period is hilarious: “If you remember the 60s, you weren’t there”.
RB from Gwinnett
October 23rd, 2012
5:39 pm
BOTH, you’re wasting our time asking me to prove the unprovable. I can’t prove anything if I can’t ask for an ID. Is there something about that you just aren’t getting?
Keep Up the Good Fight!
October 23rd, 2012
5:39 pm
What if I told you I personally know of 600 R votes that were added in Florida in 2000, do you care?
And you also can demonstrate how those 600 R votes would have been prevented by Voter ID while at the same time not suppressing the rights of 1000s of other legal voters? And can you ride a unicorn at the same time?
Paul
October 23rd, 2012
5:39 pm
RB
What if I told you I knew a group of women who forged 600 winning megamillion lottery tickets? It’s only a small percentage of the total, right?
I met one of them at Trader Joe’s when I was finishing my shift and getting on my motor scooter and she was in this new Escalade with a ton of wine and steaks in the back and she gave me some food stamps after I helped her load her stuff.
Towncrier
October 23rd, 2012
5:40 pm
“No it doesn’t support your narrative. Producing evidence of fraud in 1960 is not, I SAY AGAIN, IS NOT evidence that it is occurring today. It proves that it occurred at that time.”
So…what are you saying, TBS – that people are wonderful now (unlike they were in 1960) and would never even think of committing voter fraud? Is that your contention?
Ahem
October 23rd, 2012
5:40 pm
It Wasn’t Just an Apology Tour, It Was a Condemnation Tour! And We Have All the Evidence to Prove It Right Here…
Step right up; Read all about it; Obama did apologize. His own words condemn him.
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2012/10/23/it_wasn_t_just_an_apology_tour_it_was_a_condemnation_tour_and_we_have_all_the_evidence_to_prove_it_right_here
Mighty Righty
October 23rd, 2012
5:41 pm
Matti
A social secuity card plus a rent receipt or house payment book or a statement from your doctor will suffice for a Georgia Drivers License. Several other documents including a Social Security statement will work as well. The most amazing requirement is if you lose your Social Security Card the Social Security Department will not accept their own documents as proof of ID. Social Security apparently won’t trust their own records.
josef
October 23rd, 2012
5:41 pm
PAUL
Unmentionable says my Sartre’s hell will be Helen Thomas on one side and the Du-k-sha-nee on the other and Sue Ellen hiking her hoop skirts across the room… with my Granny reminding me to “be nice…”
.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
October 23rd, 2012
5:42 pm
Lottery winners shop at TJs not Whole Foods? My goodness.
Oscar
October 23rd, 2012
5:42 pm
The sure way to prevent in person voter fraud is to do like they do in some countries. When you vote, you get your finger stamped or dipped in ink. Works for them.
josef
October 23rd, 2012
5:43 pm
PAUL
@ 5:39
Don’t forget the prom burka…
Logical Dude
October 23rd, 2012
5:43 pm
Many here seem to be missing the point.
a) voter fraud does occur sometimes
b) OMG, voter fraud occurs! Pass laws for ID!
c) Except for absentee ballots, no change in law there
It has been shown already that voter fraud occurs on a much larger scale via absentee ballots, yet the laws are NOT being changed for absentee ballots.
If those making the laws were truthfully concerned about voter fraud, they would go after the larger amount of fraud. However, going after the in-person voter ID route shows that they are after one thing: making it harder to vote for a percentage of a population that may trend democratic.
If you don’t believe that is why this is an issue, then go ahead, leave your head in the sand.
josef
October 23rd, 2012
5:44 pm
Good Fight…
Paul’s in the Lone Star State…do they have Whole Foods there…?
RB from Gwinnett
October 23rd, 2012
5:44 pm
KEEP, prove there are 1000’s being suppressed. Not opinions. Facts.
Paul
October 23rd, 2012
5:46 pm
josef
First thing when you cross over, hold your nose and make friends with Ponce de Leon. Maybe he found that fountain and you can make your way back –
Keep Up
She told me she’d just bought the place -
Ahem
October 23rd, 2012
5:46 pm
Fraud? Did someone suggest fraud?
OBAMA: A fraud only a mother could love.