In Pakistan, a coward’s attack highlights historic struggle
Malala Yousafzai
“PESHAWAR, Pakistan — A 14-year-old Pakistani activist who won international acclaim for speaking out for girls denied education under the Taliban was shot and seriously wounded Tuesday on her way home from school, authorities said.
The Pakistani Taliban claimed responsibility for the attack on ninth-grader Malala Yousafzai, who officials said was shot in the head by at least one gunman who approached a school bus in Mingora, a city in the scenic Swat valley in the country’s northwest….
Yousafzai became known in early 2009, when she wrote a diary about Taliban atrocities under a pen name for the BBC’s Urdu service. In 2011, the Pakistani government awarded her a 1 million rupee ($10,500) prize and a peace award for her bravery in raising her voice for children’s rights and girls’ education when few others in Pakistan dared to.”
What do you say about men so threatened by the mere words of a 14-year-old girl that their best and only response is to try to assassinate her? We can call them moral cretins and cowards, which they certainly are. But that doesn’t do much for young Malala, who at last report was still clinging to life. It also doesn’t do much to protect many others like her trapped in cultures that treat women as chattel, dominated by male authorities that fear education as a challenge to their own teetering authority.
It is some solace, I suppose, that their authority is indeed teetering. Like the lynchings that once marred the American South, such acts of violence against helpless victims are a sign of weakness, not strength, and in the long term they will be interpreted as such. Human cultures may be wildly diverse, but some things are true in all places and times, and grown, armed men attacking young children elicits admiration in very few. It is also important to remember that the circumstances that produced her attackers also produced Malala herself.
Like many outbursts of violence, this attack is an act of desperation, an act of vain, brutish protest against social changes that are coming too fast for many in Pakistan and elsewhere in the deep Islamic world, but much too slowly for Malala and others caught in her predicament.
The challenge for those of us outside that world is how to accelerate that process without putting lives in unnecessary danger. Tempting as it might be to some, it is not a problem that military power can set right. The changes that are necessary cannot be imposed at gunpoint any better than they can be prevented at gunpoint. They will come in time, but time that is measured not in months or even years but probably in decades.
The knowledge that in the meantime, heroines such as Malala remain vulnerable to such cowards does not make the wait any easier.
– Jay Bookman
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
311 comments Add your comment
getalife
October 9th, 2012
1:45 pm
It takes one person to spark change.
FrankLeeDarling
October 9th, 2012
1:45 pm
Anyone who fears women so much is seriously lacking in something
getalife
October 9th, 2012
1:46 pm
Firsty.
moonbat betty
October 9th, 2012
1:49 pm
Sad story.
Lets go ahead and get it out of the way.
In the U.S., Republicans are waging “The War on Women!”
stands for decibels
October 9th, 2012
1:49 pm
Disgusting.
I can only hope this is a wake-up call for anyone in the region who might be on the fence about whether the Taliban, Dark-Age era collective wastes of sperm and egg, are somehow a net benefit to anything or anyone.
Joe Hussein Mama
October 9th, 2012
1:49 pm
Baumgartner’s skydive aborted due to winds.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
October 9th, 2012
1:50 pm
But…but…but…OBAMA! in 3…2…1….
Joe Hussein Mama
October 9th, 2012
1:50 pm
F. L. Darling — “Anyone who fears women so much is seriously lacking in something”
Stones. And I don’t mean rocks.
moonbat betty
October 9th, 2012
1:51 pm
“Baumgartner’s skydive aborted due to winds.”
What a wimp!
SHUT UP
October 9th, 2012
1:51 pm
This is just one story in a long line of how muslims treat women etc.
getalife
October 9th, 2012
1:52 pm
The President’s Big Bird ad is flat out hilarious.
Our cons dealt with change better than their cons so I have to give them credit for that.
SHUT UP
October 9th, 2012
1:54 pm
“The President’s Big Bird ad is flat out hilarious.”
And PBS has asked him to pull the ad because they don’t want anymore attention directed at them. Besides, Big Bird is about as intelligent as Obama can get since he made terrible grades at Haaaaahvahhhd.
barking frog
October 9th, 2012
1:54 pm
Words not bullets can
hasten that change. The
only entity guaranteed
free speech by the US
Constitution must use
words to hasten that
change. Thanks Jay.
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
1:55 pm
“Like the lynchings that once marred the American South, such acts of violence against helpless victims are a sign of weakness, not strength, and in the long term they will be interpreted as such.”
What is tragically ironic is the realization that we once had what was a form of institutionalized terrorism here in these United States (the Ku Klux Klan). Having grown up in the 60s and 70s in rural New England, I never was really exposed to that kind of thing (even though my mother was from the south but was baptized at 15 and NEVER a racist). I think the movie Mississippi Burning is what really opened my eyes to how bad things had been.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
October 9th, 2012
1:55 pm
It also doesn’t do much to protect many others like her trapped in cultures that treat women as chattel, dominated by male authorities that fear education as a challenge to their own teetering authority…The challenge for those of us outside that world is how to accelerate that process without putting lives in unnecessary danger.
The challenge made all the more difficult by those who would fear education and submit to a regressive interpretation of male dominated writings made some 2000 years ago and by cowards who would label her by some radical profile and attack her and others.
stands for decibels
October 9th, 2012
1:55 pm
Stones. And I don’t mean rocks.
These are the same vile c–ts who are literally scared of statues.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamiyan
larry
October 9th, 2012
1:56 pm
I’ve always had a funny feeling about Pakistan, from Bush claiming they were our ally to keeping Bin Laden safe and hid for 6 years. And when we send our Seals over to take Bin Laden, they arrest and inprison the doctor that help with the intellegence.
Add to the fact that they have a nuclear weapon,they scare me more than Iran does.
FrankLeeDarling
October 9th, 2012
1:58 pm
Indeed ,JHM.
larry
October 9th, 2012
1:59 pm
I think the movie Mississippi Burning is what really opened my eyes to how bad things had been.
Yep, and the problem has never really gone away.
Try getting a whipping for bringing home a book about MLK when you are 7 years old.
faisal
October 9th, 2012
1:59 pm
very sad in urdu we say Jehalat mean “Extreme stage of illiteracy” and madness , God bless Pakistan
indigo
October 9th, 2012
2:00 pm
Romney and Ryan will use contemptable acts like this to insist we stay indefinitely in Iraq and Afghanistan. They will argue we need, in the name of humanity, to rebuild and re-work these countries to make incidents like this become, eventually, a thing of the past.
The brutal truth is we cannot even properly protect our own citizens in our own country because there are just too many people and needs and too few dollars to do an adequate job. So, the stark truth is we can protect other countries only if we’re willing to see our country collapse under an overwhelming financial burden.
Jm
October 9th, 2012
2:00 pm
Sick. Very sick.
Muslim Fundamentalists are pre-Neanderthal.
Here’s to hoping reasonable moderate Muslims grow their resistance to the witch hunting dark age sickos.
Fly-On-The-Wall
October 9th, 2012
2:00 pm
When faith so dominates a culture/group/party that it cannot grow then it will ultimately fail
stands for decibels
October 9th, 2012
2:00 pm
God bless Pakistan
indeed. They need it a lot more than we do, frankly.
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
2:00 pm
“I’ve always had a funny feeling about Pakistan, from Bush claiming they were our ally to keeping Bin Laden safe and hid for 6 years.”
I have been told by people who have lived in places like Turkey that Arabs are characteristically two-faced.
Fly-On-The-Wall
October 9th, 2012
2:02 pm
TC – I would say that is human nature and not just a characteristic of one group or people.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
October 9th, 2012
2:03 pm
I have witnessed first hand, Baptists being two-faced.
But I wouldn’t be so presumptuous as to say that was “characteristic.”
southpaw
October 9th, 2012
2:03 pm
“armed men attacking young children elicits admiration in very few.”
I hope you’re right, Jay, but I fear that a sizable minority of radical Islamists will see this as an attempted “honor killing” and support the Taliban’s attack on her.
Jay
October 9th, 2012
2:04 pm
“I have been told by people who have lived in places like Turkey that Arabs are characteristically two-faced.
Your source’s credibility is undercut by the fact that Turks are NOT Arabs in the first place and in fact would be insulted to be called such. And vice versa, I’m sure.
getalife
October 9th, 2012
2:05 pm
They say our President leads from behind but he believes their people dictate change not us.
mitt thinks we should dictate change and is dead wrong as usual.
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
2:06 pm
“TC – I would say that is human nature and not just a characteristic of one group or people.”
I agree that everyone is capable of being two-faced, but I also believe that different cultures manifest different proclivities to particular behaviors. I am Irish and they are notorious for their drinking and alcoholism.
larry
October 9th, 2012
2:07 pm
mitt thinks we should dictate change and is dead wrong as usual
Its the Bush doctrine. Its what you get when your foreign policy ” experts” are from that failed adminstration.
Class of '98
October 9th, 2012
2:08 pm
What’s wrong, Jay? This column isn’t about some poll that shows Obama with an insurmountable lead, which is what you write about 99% of the time lately.
Joe Hussein Mama
October 9th, 2012
2:08 pm
M. Betty — “What a wimp!”
Anyone know how they were planning to get Mr. Baumgartner’s pressurized capsule down after he takes the big jump?
They just going to let it float around up there until it whacks a Delta jet in the nose or eventually falls into some farmer’s cornfield?
Jm
October 9th, 2012
2:08 pm
Getalife 2:05 way to politically spin a tragic death
You’re sick too
Jay
October 9th, 2012
2:09 pm
Pakistanis are ALSO neither Turks nor Arabs.
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
2:09 pm
“Your source’s credibility is undercut by the fact that Turks are NOT Arabs in the first place and in fact would be insulted to be called such. And vice versa, I’m sure.”
Perhaps. But that does not mean (in this one case) that he didn’t base his opinion upon the Arabs he knew in Turkey.
getalife
October 9th, 2012
2:10 pm
Jm,
Who died?
Keep Up the Good Fight!
October 9th, 2012
2:10 pm
I agree that everyone is capable of being two-faced, but I also believe that different cultures manifest different proclivities to particular behaviors
Finally, a sensible explanation for Mitt’s flips and flops.
I am Irish and they are notorious for their drinking and alcoholism.
Somehow I sense commentary about watermelons coming in the near future.
Jm
October 9th, 2012
2:10 pm
Getalife. Apologize. (even though she’s not dead like a stated a second ago)
To politicize a shooting is sick.
getalife
October 9th, 2012
2:10 pm
larry,
Exactly.
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
2:12 pm
“Pakistanis are ALSO neither Turks nor Arabs.”
Well maybe I was told Muslims and just remembered it as Arabs.
Carl Nagas
October 9th, 2012
2:12 pm
Guns don’t kill people. The NRA said so. It must be so. The NRA would say “If more school children were armed, they would be better able to defend themselves on school buses.”
getalife
October 9th, 2012
2:13 pm
Jm,
I consider her very brave and reading her words I find her very smart.
If this does spark change, she will be a national hero.
weetamoe
October 9th, 2012
2:14 pm
Desperate times call for referrals to lynching and the south. Does anyone employed by the AJC have an update or summary or just a few words about Lara Logan’s speech today? Low information voters among us—look her up. Since some of you are talking war on women again, you might be interested in what she has to say.
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
2:14 pm
“Finally, a sensible explanation for Mitt’s flips and flops.”
If he is elected, you still going to have to “suck it up”
EC
October 9th, 2012
2:15 pm
Well written Jay. Referencing the civil rights struggle of the south helps put it in perspective.
larry
October 9th, 2012
2:16 pm
It also doesn’t do much to protect many others like her trapped in cultures that treat women as chattel, dominated by male authorities that fear education as a challenge to their own teetering authority.
Cultures include politics. Look at the political landscape in Pakistan over the last 20 years. And look at who is supporting the offical government of Pakistan. How much money have we sent them over the last ten years for being our ally?
Jm
October 9th, 2012
2:17 pm
Getalife
You are trying to make political hay out of the shooting of a 14 year old girl
You and the Taliban are two of a kind
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
October 9th, 2012
2:17 pm
Does anyone employed by the AJC have an update or summary or just a few words about Lara Logan’s speech today?
Go to blogspot.com.
Create your own blog.
Choose the topics that you wish to discuss.
skipper
October 9th, 2012
2:18 pm
There is not a Muslim majority country that can even govern itself. No, I am not racist or prejudiced….but yes I am totally against the Muslim fundamentalists that can’t do anything but kill innocents because they are too friggin’ stupid to do anything else with their lives. I do not give a rat’s ass whether a movie insulted them or the price of goat meat went up. If we had left the Israelis alone in ‘67, we would not have near the problems we have now. you can thank LBJ for that……………..
DebbieDoRight - Plantation Liberal (In Good Standing)
October 9th, 2012
2:19 pm
It also doesn’t do much to protect many others like her trapped in cultures that treat women as chattel, dominated by male authorities that fear education as a challenge to their own teetering authority.
I am always amazed why we women put up with it. Is it the curse put upon Eve by Jehovah – that we love our men sometimes more than we love ourselves? Unfortunately what might become of this act is that millions of Afghani women ruled in Taliban-like theocracies, may decided to kill their newborn sons, rather than to submit forever to such tyranny.
getalife – They say our President leads from behind but he believes their people dictate change not us.
Sorry about Saturday G — it was inevitable; the mad hatter has GOT to be more unpredictable when calling Offensive plays. Anyway — back to the subject – You’re correct. Why risk our children’s future and lives to fight someone ELSE’s war? In the end, they NEVER thank us for it; they just become sulky and militant.
southpaw: I hope you’re right, Jay, but I fear that a sizable minority of radical Islamists will see this as an attempted “honor killing” and support the Taliban’s attack on her.
I know — again, I ask, “Why do women put up with this crap?” I guess we’re just too loving.
. Girl, you oughta bash Mister’s head open and think about heaven later!” – Sofia from The Color Purple.
larry
October 9th, 2012
2:21 pm
And if , and this is a big if, Mr. Romney wins the election and starts a war with Iran, who will Pakistan side with?
Will it be someone who has supported them over the last ten years , or will they go the same way Iraq will go, against the U.S. and for Iran.
Yes, Iraq will go with Iran. Another side effect of a failed policy.
getalife
October 9th, 2012
2:21 pm
Jm,
Just pointing out the difference of both candidates on foreign policy. I think you need to know the history of the regions you are talking about. I doubt mitt bothered to learn.
They have a long way to go to join the civilized in the 21 st century but this is a good start not occupations.
MANGLER
October 9th, 2012
2:21 pm
These stories scour up very strong emotions and calls to actions. However, it’s ineffective to view these incidents through American eyes and interpretations. The freedom to speak out against one’s government doesn’t exist in most of the world, even in much of the first world (try to do it in France, Germany, Russia, or Japan and see how far you get).
How does one affect change? I don’t honestly know that “we” can. It must come from “them”. It took a civil war for us, and we’ve still been ironing out wrinkles ever since. These things will happen, and as painful as it will be for us to see it, we should butt out unless we are asked to help.
AmericaShrugged
October 9th, 2012
2:21 pm
Don’t sweat it, Obama’s got this. He’ll negotiate, sanction, and charm them out of thinking that way.
Jay
October 9th, 2012
2:21 pm
Thanks for the heads up on that weetamoe. I hadn’t seen that yet. She apparently wants a considerable US troop presence in Libya, an invasion of nuclear Pakistan and a general all-out war with Islam. You good with all that? You’re talking an effort on the scale of WWII, but considerably longer and more open-ended, since to change all those places we would have to impose lengthy occupations.
Again, you good with all that?
Road Scholar
October 9th, 2012
2:22 pm
Sounds similar to the American Taliban…those who kill abortion doctors.
Jm
October 9th, 2012
2:23 pm
Getalife, apologize.
This is about Pakistan.
getalife
October 9th, 2012
2:24 pm
“Sorry about Saturday G — it was inevitable; the mad hatter has GOT to be more unpredictable when calling Offensive plays”
Yes, folks around here are saying the same thing. We have to keep our defense off the field more .
getalife
October 9th, 2012
2:24 pm
Jm,
No.
DebbieDoRight - Plantation Liberal (In Good Standing)
October 9th, 2012
2:26 pm
When faith so dominates a culture/group/party that it cannot grow then it will ultimately fail
Religion is the opiate of the people — Karl Marxx
Jm
October 9th, 2012
2:26 pm
“this is a good start”
A girl being shot is good? Only in getalife land.
stevie ray
October 9th, 2012
2:27 pm
Too bad our investment in Afghanistan is paying off the most the Taliban
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
2:28 pm
“You good with all that?”
Sadly, we may not have much choice at some point (even in the next ten years). If the ME really goes south and turns largely radical and Israel gets involved or attacked, then just what do YOU think will happen?
getalife
October 9th, 2012
2:28 pm
“Again, you good with all that?”
Talk about warmonger.
Good grief.
Jay
October 9th, 2012
2:28 pm
“There is not a Muslim majority country that can even govern itself. No, I am not racist or prejudiced….
Yes. You are.
You are also uninformed. Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia, Kosovo, Jordan, Bahrain… all Muslim-majority, all pretty peaceful. Besides, before you get all high and mighty, you might want to remember that it was the Western world that dragged the world into our most recent global conflict in which some 60 million people were killed, and also the Christian West that started the world war previous to that.
getalife
October 9th, 2012
2:29 pm
Jm,
No, her speaking out will encourage others to stand up silly.
Joe Hussein Mama
October 9th, 2012
2:29 pm
Skipper — “There is not a Muslim majority country that can even govern itself.”
Well, 35 million Turkish voters say you’re wrong.
Brosephus™
October 9th, 2012
2:30 pm
Getalife. Apologize. (even though she’s not dead like a stated a second ago)
To politicize a shooting is sick.
Remember that the next time a conservative brings up Brian Terry. That’s a two-way street you’re trying to cross.
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
2:31 pm
“Religion is the opiate of the people — Karl Marx”
I thought shows like “How I Met Your Mother” and “Two and a Half Men” were.
getalife
October 9th, 2012
2:32 pm
crier,
Don’t freak out like mitt and call our President a “terrorist sympathizer”.
The adults are in charge.
getalife
October 9th, 2012
2:32 pm
I guess jm is Marty.
Doggone/GA
October 9th, 2012
2:33 pm
“There is not a Muslim majority country that can even govern itself”
Who governs Indonesia?
The Truth
October 9th, 2012
2:34 pm
Jay and I don’t agree on the political platform, nor many other subjects, I have made it a point not to consume my time reading or wasting my time trying to convince the way wacky Left that in my opinion they are wrong, I do occasionally see what Jay may have to say on occasion as I have today. What troubles me today is not what Jay has said regarding Romney,or touting about Obama, but he has wrote about the loss of inocence in a little girls life and yet you the pathetic petty criers of liberalism only reply with more of your normal puke.
Jay, I salute for writing something worthy of reading and responding to.
stands for decibels
October 9th, 2012
2:34 pm
35 million Turkish voters say you’re wrong.
to say nothing of 237 million Indonesians.
(seriously, it’s going to be hard to top skipper’s post @ 2.18 on the ignorance scale, but some will surely give it the ol’ college try.)
Doggone/GA
October 9th, 2012
2:34 pm
“I am always amazed why we women put up with it”
We “put up” with it because men are generally stronger than women and if so inclined, can beat women into submission. That plus blackmailing them via their children.
J.L. Lee
October 9th, 2012
2:35 pm
Dump a little of the ‘leftover’ Variola Maj (smallpox) on Taliban villages. They will be too busy dying to screw with anyone.
getalife
October 9th, 2012
2:36 pm
The ME is changing and change scares conservatives.
We have new governments in the ME so those who think they know about these new government are full of bs.
We don’t know yet.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 9th, 2012
2:36 pm
Christian Fundamentalists are pre-Neanderthal.
fixed yer typo
Paul
October 9th, 2012
2:37 pm
We overuse some words so much we cheapen what they mean. Like referring to every member of a profession (and there are several) as a ‘hero.’
This young lady epitomizes what the word should mean.
Muslim fundamentalists have killed scores of children, thru car bombs and suicide vests. All the world sees is the cleanup afterwards. So this demonstrates, again, the power of personalizing. One child, with a name and a face, known by many. That’s something tangible people can relate to while highlighting their revulsion for those they can’t relate to.
“The challenge for those of us outside that world is how to accelerate that process without putting lives in unnecessary danger.”
Best way is to go as low-key and as surreptitiously as possible. Perceptions of outside agitation will serve only to set back the effort.
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
2:37 pm
Speaking of really bad behavior, driven by emotion and ideology:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2012/oct/9/romney-signs-defaced-excrement-virginia/
Politics is so much like religion some times, it is amazing.
Mick
October 9th, 2012
2:37 pm
We all want a perfect world but unfortunately, the world is not cooperating, what to do? For starters, realize that even though we wield enormous power, most change has to come from within. We can assist those who need our help but we must avoid being pulled into foreign entaglements. The world’s policeman is nearing retirement and not a day too soon. Maybe this brave young lady will become the pakistani version of rosa parks, it’s a tough culture to change after all these hundreds of years but change it must…
willie lynch
October 9th, 2012
2:37 pm
I find your comparison to the American South very poignant since this story immediately reminded me of Emmit Till. Unfortunately Pakistan doesn’t have a budding civil rights movement to hasten the liberation of the oppressed in that country.
The value of a Martin King should never be underestimated.
tm
October 9th, 2012
2:38 pm
Mean while in our Country we have a football coach who sets up a charity for disadvantaged boys so he can keep his stable full to abuse the boys for years. Yes there are sick people is all countries and of all back grounds.
DebbieDoRight - Plantation Liberal (In Good Standing)
October 9th, 2012
2:38 pm
Sadly, we may not have much choice at some point (even in the next ten years). If the ME really goes south and turns largely radical and Israel gets involved or attacked, then just what do YOU think will happen?
Don’t know about Jay – but my answer would be to tell Israel to pack up and leave. If they believe that the bible dictate that the land they’re on now is historically theirs, than they should also believe that their children’s children will one day return, just like they did after WWII.
However, biblically speaking, if they’re basing their assumptions of ownership on the bible, then the Bible also states that Israel would be in ruins, In Hosea 13: 9 it states, “You are destroyed, O Israel, because you are against me, against your helper.”
Israel’s claim, to my knowledge. have never been substantiate in a World Court. CAVEAT: I’m still searching to see if they have OR if it was just substantiated in the NATO agreement of
AmericaShrugged
October 9th, 2012
2:38 pm
Jay – Way back to WWI & WWII that’s true, but recent hotspots since say 1975 are almost all Muslim except for the IRA; East Timor, Mali, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc. From a western perspective it is a failed moral code. Not just the convert or be killed code of the extremists, but the subjugation of woman throughout th eculture.
Brosephus™
October 9th, 2012
2:39 pm
(seriously, it’s going to be hard to top skipper’s post @ 2.18 on the ignorance scale, but some will surely give it the ol’ college try.)
I beg to differ. With the quality and quantity of posters we have here, I give a day or maybe two tops before we set a new blog record.
————————-
on topic: When you have to shoot a kid to try to scare people into your way of thinking, that leads one to think you’re holding on by a thread. This is the point where Muslims from all around the world need to band together to strike a blow against the extremists within their ranks.
indigo
October 9th, 2012
2:39 pm
Towncrier – 2:31
Don’t forget the Honey Boo Boo show.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
October 9th, 2012
2:40 pm
“When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”
– Misattributed to Sinclair Lewis
Paul
October 9th, 2012
2:40 pm
Jay
” Besides, before you get all high and mighty, you might want to remember that it was the Western world that dragged the world”
We may want to consider the countries ravaged by Imperial Japan prior to 1941, when they expanded the scope of the eastern war in Dec, might take a different view of who else was involved in the dragging.
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
2:40 pm
“Don’t freak out like mitt and call our President a “terrorist sympathizer”
Huh? Talk much?
Doggone/GA
October 9th, 2012
2:40 pm
” From a western perspective it is a failed moral code”
Nope. It is a failure of the people who misinterpret that moral code.
stevie ray
October 9th, 2012
2:40 pm
We can throw all the money in the world at ME countries but as we are finding, at best, we are simply postponing civil wars that the dictators in those countries arrested we will see same in syria, libya, and iraq with most likely outcome in each being control by those not aligned ot otherwise ready for our evangecal brand of democracy they will definitely mirror ourprocess of auctioning off our elected officials
AmericaShrugged
October 9th, 2012
2:40 pm
stand for – Those same Indonesians who from about 1975 through 1999 slaughtered thousands of Christians in East Timor? Wonderful people.
getalife
October 9th, 2012
2:41 pm
crier,
Problem reading much?
stands for decibels
October 9th, 2012
2:43 pm
TC @ 2.37, if you really want to play that game…
Fred ™
October 9th, 2012
2:43 pm
The right wingers on this blog are all over attacking 14 year old little girls…….. well as long as they are President Obama’s daughter’s……….
skipper
October 9th, 2012
2:43 pm
Jay,
WWII is over……………look where all the trouble is now………………
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
2:44 pm
“This is the point where Muslims from all around the world need to band together to strike a blow against the extremists within their ranks.”
Indeed. We have been waiting a long time. Their inactivity in the face of such evil invites all kinds of questions.
Harry Kuheim
October 9th, 2012
2:44 pm
As you read this Code Pink and other fools are in Afghanistan protesting the use of Drones, which are the most surgical weapons ever conceived, against the Taliban in Waziristan.
stevie ray
October 9th, 2012
2:44 pm
Debbie
Why we didnt give zionists north dakota insteadis beyond me. Quite clear this 60 yr experiment is a failure.
stands for decibels
October 9th, 2012
2:44 pm
Those same Indonesians who from about 1975 through 1999 slaughtered thousands of Christians in East Timor? Wonderful people.
The claim was that they couldn’t “govern themselves.”
And if we’re going go to that happy place where we start talking about who’s slaughtered thousands of people, I guess we could proceed with all the Muslim friends we made with our Freedom Bombs in Iraq.
Doggone/GA
October 9th, 2012
2:45 pm
“well as long as they are President Obama’s daughter’s……….”
It’s time for you to find a new hobby horse to ride…that one is old and worn out.
Brosephus™
October 9th, 2012
2:46 pm
but recent hotspots since say 1975 are almost all Muslim except for the IRA; East Timor, Mali, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.
How easily one dismisses some hot spots to drive an ideological point…
Rwanda (Roman Catholic 56.5%, Protestant 26%, Adventist 11.1%, Muslim 4.6%)
Mexico (Roman Catholic 76.5%, Protestant 6.3% [Pentecostal 1.4%, Jehovah's Witnesses 1.1%, other 3.8%])
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
2:47 pm
“TC @ 2.37, if you really want to play that game…”
It is NOT a game. Thank you for providing further evidence of my statement.
Joe Hussein Mama
October 9th, 2012
2:47 pm
SfD — “to say nothing of 237 million Indonesians.”
FWIW, when someone spouts off that ‘Mooslims are uncontrollable savages’ bullspit, I prefer to cite Turkey because not only is it partly in Europe, it also happens to be of our NATO allies. In fact, the Turks have the second largest standing military force in NATO — second only to the US.
Woodstock Mike
October 9th, 2012
2:47 pm
“Romney and Ryan will use contemptable acts like this to insist we stay indefinitely in Iraq and Afghanistan.”
I guess this person hasn’t been on planet Earth the last 4 years while Obama has placed more US soldiers in Afghanistan than were there when he came into office. So funny…
I’m not at all against Obama trying to stabilize the Middle East but let’s be real about the situation, Obama has sent thousands upon thousands of American soldiers to the Middle East.
AmericaShrugged
October 9th, 2012
2:48 pm
dog – Check out Qadar. It’s the Muslim tenet of predetermination, as opposed to the Christian tenet of free will. I worked on a ship with Muslims and if the boom was about to hit you in the back of the head and kill you the Muslims would not shout out a warning, believing your death to be the will of god. I say that’s a failed moral code common to Muslims, not the failed interpretation of a few extremists.
Jay
October 9th, 2012
2:49 pm
AmericaShrugged, tell that to the some 8,000 unarmed Bosnian Muslims murdered and buried in mass graves by the Christian Serbs.
jms
October 9th, 2012
2:50 pm
Despite our faults, I’m still glad I live here.
Brosephus™
October 9th, 2012
2:51 pm
“Their *perceived inactivity in the face of such evil invites all kinds of questions.”
Just because it does not meet your standard or definition of activity does not mean that something isn’t going on.
willie lynch
October 9th, 2012
2:51 pm
Brosephus™
October 9th, 2012
2:46 pm
And let’s not forget the US of A. The worlds leader in so-called illegal and legal psychotropic drug use. Something to be said for a majority Christian nation.
AmericaShrugged
October 9th, 2012
2:52 pm
Bro – Mexico? Must have missed that one. I’m talking about significant deaths resulting from religipous conflicts, Muslims against Christians in Timor, Catholics against protestants in Ireland, etc.
Mick
October 9th, 2012
2:52 pm
**Despite our faults, I’m still glad I live here**
Ain’t it the truth?
DebbieDoRight - Plantation Liberal (In Good Standing)
October 9th, 2012
2:53 pm
We “put up” with it because men are generally stronger than women and if so inclined, can beat women into submission. That plus blackmailing them via their children.
Men may be stronger, but women are smarter. There are countless stories of men poisoned by their wives, (the ones who cook their food and wash their clothes); slowly and methodically so it would look like an accident. And there are also many stories of slaves women who killed their newly born children (for the American slave, however, it was mostly their FEMALE children in order to prevent their daughters becoming what they’d became); so they could save their children from a life of forced bondage.
Also, there are a numerous historical passages of women committing mass suicides in order to escape tyranny. I read a book called, “A Woman In Berlin” that chronicled the life of a Germany woman who lived in Occupied Berlin (occupied by Russians); after WWII and how at first the women hid from the russians but if they were caught had committed suicide so as not to be brutally raped and tortured.
I myself would rather commit suicide then live to be brutalized, if I couldn’t figure out a way to KILL my captor. Unfortunately, my first thought would be of getting rid of him, THEN if that didn’t work, I’d go to option #2.
I never professed to being a good Catholic.
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
2:53 pm
I have to hand it to Romney with these (stinging) comments:
“These are tough times, with real serious issues. So you have to scratch your head when the president spends the last week talking about Big Bird…I actually think we have to have a president who talks about saving the American people.”
Why the Obama campaign decided to make an issue of this is beyond my comprehension. Even liberals in the media are decrying the “strategy”:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/10/09/media-Backlash-Against-Big-Bird-Ad
Mick
October 9th, 2012
2:55 pm
brosephus
If alabama gets to play for the national championship in miami, nick satan should have an interesting homecoming…we don’t forget…
AmericaShrugged
October 9th, 2012
2:56 pm
Jay – Okay I’ll give you Bosnia and throw in Rwanda, although I had a lot of Serb friends and they have a history of hating Russians, than Croatians, than other Serbs. It’s some blend of religion/culture/nationality not just kill the infidel that doesn’t recognize Allah.
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
2:56 pm
“Just because it does not meet your standard or definition of activity does not mean that something isn’t going on.”
Well, why don’t you point us all to the results of this supposed activity? I’d truly love to hear of them…
Doggone/GA
October 9th, 2012
2:56 pm
“dog – Check out Qadar”
why should I? I’m not Muslim.
Mick
October 9th, 2012
2:57 pm
towncrier
What “presidential” candidate was it again that brought up the point of firing big bird? Hmmm….real serious stuff, eh?
JamVet
October 9th, 2012
2:57 pm
Their inactivity in the face of such evil invites all kinds of questions.
Alas, they are just going down the exact same road that the historic Christians did the same for centuries on end. And trying to extract some revenge.
Demented religious nutjobs of all stripes have to be controlled just like we finally did in this country, because they will gladly kill in His name and heaven knows what else…
getalife
October 9th, 2012
2:58 pm
cnn just asked a tea party con pol if they cut funding for protecting our embassies.
The answer is yes, they did.
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
2:59 pm
“What “presidential” candidate was it again that brought up the point of firing big bird? Hmmm….real serious stuff, eh?”
I don’t know about you, but I would rather them both talk about the 16T debt
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
October 9th, 2012
2:59 pm
breitbart
Too funny!
joe
October 9th, 2012
2:59 pm
great post bookman. the thing that i can’t wrap my head around is why more people, especially liberals, don’t take more time to defend the rights of people like malala. Instead, they choose to condemn christians, when it’s muslims like the shooter who need to be criticized.
the greatest influencers who could do the most good for people like malala are indeed muslims. they need to take the lead on correcting their own before outsiders can have a true influence.
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
3:00 pm
“Alas, they are just going down the exact same road that the historic Christians did the same for centuries on end. And trying to extract some revenge.”
Okay…why don’t you substantiate and further explain what you are claiming here for all of us?
Welcome to the Occupation
October 9th, 2012
3:00 pm
Jay, nothing you say here is factually wrong or wrong as to the moral repugnance of these types of attacks. But as is typical of liberal commentators on these parts of the world, your discussion is completely lacking in context of the larger ideological struggles playing out in and around countries like Pakistan, a country that itself is the product of such ideological struggles and shifts in Western hegemonic influence.
At the same time as these tragedies are happening, our own government is sending drones into these very same places and others with results that are no less brutal than the one at issue here. And yet we’re told that the victims can all reliably be grouped as “militants”, a claim that is obviously implausible on its face. Why is a family’s destruction from a wayward, or even all too precise, drone attack any less the expression of the “weakness” of an ideology, as you say?
Doggone/GA
October 9th, 2012
3:00 pm
“Men may be stronger, but women are smarter”
It still comes down to strength in the end. In a society (not religions) where women cannot even step outside their homes without a male escort, there is a STRONG incentive to keep you man alive…so you and your children don’t STARVE…because other men in the outside will seek to harm you if you are caught without a man by your side.
It’s a close circle, and when you couple that with keeping women illterate so they can’t even read their own holy book and SEE that they are being duped…it’s a hard circle to break.
Wowonisha
October 9th, 2012
3:01 pm
“What do you say about men so threatened by the mere words of a 14-year-old girl that their best and only response is to try to assassinate her?”
Stinking, murderous third world animals comes to mind.
The irony is that Jay and the much of the media decry this kind of violence against women yet they’ll bend over backwards to provide PC cover for all things Muslim.
Mick
October 9th, 2012
3:01 pm
**the thing that i can’t wrap my head around is why more people, especially liberals**
Intended to be a totally bogus statement…
Joe Hussein Mama
October 9th, 2012
3:03 pm
Towncrier — “Well, why don’t you point us all to the results of this supposed activity? I’d truly love to hear of them…”
Here’s a good start for you; lots of footnotes to follow up on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_movements_within_Islam
In fact, check out the first footnote; the one that says “Finally: Muslims Speak Out Against Jihad.” That seems to be the sort of thing you’re talking about.
Brosephus™
October 9th, 2012
3:03 pm
Mexico? Must have missed that one. I’m talking about significant deaths resulting from religipous conflicts, Muslims against Christians in Timor, Catholics against protestants in Ireland, etc.
That’s not what you stated before. You simply stated hotspots since 1975. Even if you want to go on religion, there’s Nigeria which is 50-50 Christian to Muslim. Your point is still off.
————————-
Well, why don’t you point us all to the results of this supposed activity? I’d truly love to hear of them…
The RESULTS of the activities are ongoing, much as it was in this country for Civil Rights (using Jay’s analogy). America didn’t go from the Civil War to Blacks voting without fear of lynching in a matter of 5-10 years, and you will not have the same thing within the Muslim community.
However, you do have places where women are asserting themselves more. Whether its a female driving a car in Saudi Arabia or women elsewhere refusing to cover their heads and/or bodies. As I said, things that may seem like nothing to you are no less than Rosa Parks sitting on a bus to Muslims. If you don’t understand things from their perspective, you’ll never see the small things that snowball into the larger things.
Fred ™
October 9th, 2012
3:04 pm
Doggone/GA
October 9th, 2012
2:45 pm
“well as long as they are President Obama’s daughter’s……….”
It’s time for you to find a new hobby horse to ride…that one is old and worn out.
+++++++++++++++++
Not to me it’s not. As a father to a young daughter I will not tolerate little girls being dragged through the mud so “fine republicans gentlemen” can attempt to score some sort of sick political points.
DebbieDoRight - Plantation Liberal (In Good Standing)
October 9th, 2012
3:04 pm
TC: I thought shows like “How I Met Your Mother” and “Two and a Half Men” were.
TC — you need Jesus!!
Stevie — Word! North Dakota could’ve use the population explosion if nothing else!
Joe Hussein Mama
October 9th, 2012
3:05 pm
joe — “Instead, they choose to condemn christians”
Disagreement =/= condemnation
Mary Elizabeth
October 9th, 2012
3:05 pm
“It also doesn’t do much to protect many others like her trapped in cultures that treat women as chattel, dominated by male authorities that fear education as a challenge to their own teetering authority.”
===================================================
At least calling truth for what it is helps to hasten how women are perceived in the Middle East, and calling cowards for who they are, also, helps in hastening perceptions toward that enlightenment.
Americans, too, need further enlightenment relative to how women are perceived even today within our own nation. See below.
http://maryelizabethsings.wordpress.com/2012/06/01/how-women-are-viewed-in-this-world-2012-2/
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
3:06 pm
“Demented religious nutjobs of all stripes have to be controlled just like we finally did in this country, because they will gladly kill in His name and heaven knows what else…”
And in whose or what name did people like Stalin, Mao tse-Tung, Pol Pot and a host of other non-religious or atheist leaders kill in? Hmm? News flash for you JV: people kill innocent people because they are murderous and NOT because they are religious or non-religious.
Jay
October 9th, 2012
3:06 pm
Wowonisha, I’m just guessing here, but I’d bet that you subscribe to the theory that guns don’t kill people, people kill people. Am I right?
If so, how do you rationalize a belief that people don’t kill people, religions do? In this case, if Islam attacked this 14-year-old girl, then Christianity, not Eric Rudolph, murdered Robert Sanderson.
Boris Badnoff
October 9th, 2012
3:07 pm
Everyone is upset when anyone who is innocent is a victim of violence. Quit trying to milk this for partisan politics. No one but the terrorists are happy about it. Only caveat lynchings weren’t limited to the South.
Welcome to the Occupation
October 9th, 2012
3:07 pm
Wowonisha: “Stinking, murderous third world animals comes to mind.”
We ARE part of the “third world”, Wowonisha, in case you hadn’t noticed. So you might do well to drop the cultural chauvinism.
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
3:08 pm
“As I said, things that may seem like nothing to you are no less than Rosa Parks sitting on a bus to Muslims. If you don’t understand things from their perspective, you’ll never see the small things that snowball into the larger things.”
I truly hope you are right. I guess time will tell – if the radical Muslims don’t somehow involve us all in WWIII before then.
Jm
October 9th, 2012
3:09 pm
Bro
I have no idea who that is
But we’re talking about a shooting in Pakistan, not the US (if you’re referring to a US shooting)
getalife
October 9th, 2012
3:10 pm
Women are leading leading governments because men screwed them up.
Get use to it.
DebbieDoRight - Plantation Liberal (In Good Standing)
October 9th, 2012
3:11 pm
Alas, they are just going down the exact same road that the historic Christians did the same for centuries on end.
WWII comes to mind. I was shocked when I learned, while watching PBS (Uh oh, better not bring up PBS – it’s on the right’s hit list); that catholic priests in Germany actually blessed Hitler’s troops before they went into battle!! I was horrified! It made me feel………….ridiculous for even entering into a Cathedral and worshipping.
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
3:16 pm
“In this case, if Islam attacked this 14-year-old girl, then Christianity, not Eric Rudolph, murdered Robert Sanderson.”
There is a qualitative difference between the New Testament and the Koran – the “rule book” for both religions (one, for instance, can finds numerous commands to harm or kill “infidels” in the latter but none in the former). So this comparison is not entirely sound. But I will stipulate that many “believers” of any religion do whatever they want to do with little or no regard for the “rule book” that serves as the basis for the professed faith.
getalife
October 9th, 2012
3:18 pm
Although religion got people to act better , it did breed wars and discrimination.
Change is crawling like a snail but moving forward.
More Americans are deciding for no religion.
Jay
October 9th, 2012
3:18 pm
I note your eviction of the Old Testament from the Christian Bible, Towncrier.
I’m curious though: Which version of the Bible do you use personally? Does it too contain the Old Testament? Is it not the same God speaking in both?
DebbieDoRight - Plantation Liberal (In Good Standing)
October 9th, 2012
3:19 pm
TC — If a person from Mars were to pick up the Old Testament and read it; they’d think that Christians and/or Jews were nothing more than low tolerance killing machines.
There’s more murder and mayhem in the Old Testament than in any Die Hard or DOOM movie.
JamVet
October 9th, 2012
3:20 pm
Killing the non-profit PBS enhances the Party of Stupid’s anti-intellectual, anti-science and anti-environment position. The tiny amount of money allowed to counter their zillions of dollars has nothing to do with it.
The corporate stooges in the GOP don’t want American citizens, especially American children, to be highly informed and passionate about this country. Thus they loathe Frontline, Nova, American Experience, Nature, American Masters, independent journalism and amazingly documentaries, great performances and dramatic masterpieces of all kinds
And Austin City Limits!
The slick guys on snake -oil lined Madison Avenue certainly don’t want ANY competition. Especially the kind that puts out more excellent programming in a week than they do in a year.
So they use their nitwit McCarthyite proxies in the Republican Party to wage war on the “competition. Not insignificantly because public broadcasting and collective ownership makes them look like the filth purveyors they are. And the HUGE money for keeping people uninformed, culturally illiterate, dumbed down, happy dolts is simply too great to create an equally high quality product.
So go ahead, cons enjoy your Wheel of Fortune and Trump trash TV…
Thulsa Doom
October 9th, 2012
3:20 pm
moonbat betty
October 9th, 2012
1:51 pm
“Baumgartner’s skydive aborted due to winds.”
“What a wimp!”
A wimp indeed. I once skydived from 150,000 feet with no oxygen, wearing only my speedos, and I landed in the middle of a hurricane and then swam through 100 foot waves and man eating sharks as I righted and towed capsized ships and saved maidens in distress all the way back to shore.
Brosephus™
October 9th, 2012
3:21 pm
jm: Bro
I have no idea who that is
You’re kidding right???
http://www.odmp.org/officer/20596-border-patrol-agent-brian-a-terry
Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was shot and killed near Rio Rico, Arizona, while attempting to apprehend a group of armed subjects. The suspects had been preying on illegal immigrants with the intent to rob them.
Agent Terry and several other agents were attempting to arrest the group when shots were exchanged between the suspects and agents. Agent Terry was struck in the pelvis by a round fired by a suspect armed with an AK-47.
IF you want to go more recently, then ask kayaker about Nicholas Ivie when he shows up. He tried to make his shooting death political as well.
http://www.odmp.org/officer/21409-border-patrol-agent-nicholas-j-ivie
Border Patrol Agent Nicholas Ivie was accidentally shot and killed in a case of mistaken identity when he and another pair of agents checked on a ground sensor that had been set off near Bisbee, Arizona, at approximately 1:30 am.
The agents encountered each other in an area of extremely rocky terrain. Because of the darkness and obstructions, they were unable to identify each other as agents. They exchanged gunfire during the encounter and Agent Ivie was killed while one of the other agents was wounded.
Agent Ivie had served with the U.S. Border Patrol for four years and was assigned to the Brian A. Terry Border Patrol Station. He is survived by his wife and children.
You say you’re talking about a shooting in Pakistan, but it doesn’t matter WHERE the shooting happens if you’re talking about making something political that is NOT political in nature. If you’re gonna call out one incident, then be consistent and call them all out, lest ye choose to be known as hypocriticus maximus around here.
Outrageous
October 9th, 2012
3:21 pm
Obama and his team let our Libya Ambassador be killed, no security
The first since 1979
Obama disaster
stands for decibels
October 9th, 2012
3:22 pm
But JV, the annual subsidy for PBS is like a buck thirty five per citizen. WE CAN’T AFFORRRRD IT!
skipper
October 9th, 2012
3:24 pm
Good Lord, some of the folks on this blog would defend Sandusky…………history is full of examples of ALL KINDS of religions, idealogies, etc. starting all kinds of wars. Whatever phase is on at the time, it has to be dealt with. Muslim fundamentalism (honor killings, stonings, etc.) is happening now…..the crusades, inquisition, holocaust, etc. had to be dealt with in THEIR TIMES….they were. Now, however, right now these radical pack-rats are the biggest threat. In England, for one, they have not tried to assimilate or anything else..just spout off and cause trouble. AGAIN WE ARE LOOKING AT THE present problem, NOT THE PAST…..all kinds of problems have been dealt with in history. But as of now, the Muslim extremists are totin’ the flag. It ain’t the girl-scouts doing the suicide bombings, honor-killings, etc.
getalife
October 9th, 2012
3:24 pm
If you look at the timeline of world history, there were wars before Christ and wars after death.
One think consistent in history are wars.
I think there will always be conflict in some part of the world but since we are “broke” it does not make since adding two trillion to defense and we should give our troops a rest for a while.
Jm
October 9th, 2012
3:26 pm
Bro
Is that the F&F thing?
Didn’t follow it that closely
I think security threats, mass shootings, police quality or failures etc in the US are fair game for discussion
A shooting abroad by crackpots, sad to see it politicized
But that’s par for the course (yes generally on both sides)
getalife
October 9th, 2012
3:26 pm
“Obama and his team let our Libya Ambassador be killed, no security”
gop congress cut their funding.
JamVet
October 9th, 2012
3:28 pm
Okay…why don’t you substantiate and further explain what you are claiming here for all of us?
OK, but who is this “all of us” you are speaking for?
Just so if I ever address “all of them”, I’ll clear it with you first, OK?
Stand on your own two feet. Use pronouns properly. Such as I, me, myself and mine.
Or don’t.
Yeah, you’re right, my bad, crier.
Torquemada was a figment of some atheist’s imagination and Christians like him have NOT slaughtered hundreds of millions of non-Christians in the name of God throughout the history of mankind.
Jesus H. Christ…
Jay
October 9th, 2012
3:29 pm
“A wimp indeed. I once skydived from 150,000 feet with no oxygen, wearing only my speedos, and I landed in the middle of a hurricane and then swam through 100 foot waves and man eating sharks as I righted and towed capsized ships and saved maidens in distress all the way back to shore.”
And then Fred lowered his shoulder and ran through you like you were an Al Groh defense.
josef
October 9th, 2012
3:29 pm
JAY
“Like the lynchings that once marred the American South, such acts of violence against helpless victims are a sign of weakness, not strength,”
This is a true statement. But why are you giving that example? Our President yesterday asked us to reflect on the Indian thingie…why not that? Isn’t it time we confront more of our demons that just racist violence in the South against Blacks? Broaden your perspective. Look at the banning of French language education when children were beaten for speaking French in school. We have more than just this one in our closets and it’s long since past time we confronted it.
But, as you’ve said before when I bring this up, it’s not something people round ‘cheer, or anywhere else in the Good Ole USA for that matter, really care about.
Brosephus™
October 9th, 2012
3:31 pm
TC @ 3:08
I can’t say whether I’m right or wrong. Only the passage of time will show that. When history is happening, it is sometimes hard to see because of the nature of small, un-connected events playing out. Only in hindsight can the big picture be seen once everything is connected. With the interconnected economies of the global community, I think there is a diminished incentive for WWIII, but that doesn’t mean it can’t or won’t happen if provoked.
Brosephus™
October 9th, 2012
3:32 pm
josef
Shall I dust off the red feather???
getalife
October 9th, 2012
3:33 pm
“And then Fred lowered his shoulder and ran through you like you were an Al Groh defense”
I think that was doomy and Al Groh got fired.
josef
October 9th, 2012
3:34 pm
Okay, that ranh-ranh out of the way, as to the topic at hand. Things of this nature will continue so long as these cretins’ fellow citizens/countrymen and co-religionists quake in fear and dare not confront the barbarism The outside world will not be able to do it. Their neighbors down the street can and must. But they need to know that we are on their side and they won’t know that if we keep lumping them all together and painting them with the same broad brush.
stands for decibels
October 9th, 2012
3:34 pm
Our President yesterday asked us to reflect on the Indian thingie…why not that?
hmm. Josef, did you happen to see this?
Columbus Day for the Conquered: Guess Which Candidate Gives a Damn About Indian Country?:
When you search for “Native American” on Mitt Romney’s campaign website, you get exactly nothing. If you search “Indian,” you get a few hits, but only in reference to the Indian Affairs Committee one Romney-supporting member of Congress or other is on.
When you search for “Native American” on President Barack Obama’s campaign website, you get an entire section for Native Americans for Obama. It even lists Obama’s accomplishments for Native Americans, including direct assistance to Indian Country through $3 billion from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 or, you know, the stimulus. That renovated schools, roads, and health facilities, all of which brought jobs to tribal areas. This is not to mention things like the Indian Health Care Improvement Act, which was made permanent by Obamacare.
In other words, to put it succinctly on this Columbus Day 2012, where we must acknowledge the conquered in the wake of the Europeans’ arrival on these shores, Barack Obama gives a [good gosh-darn] about Indians. For Mitt Romney, they are merely part of the 47% he has written off.
JKL2
October 9th, 2012
3:34 pm
I’m sure it was an accident. Those peaceful Muslims would never hurt anyone on purpose.
I can’t wait until we become a liberal utopia like Pakistan.
Jay
October 9th, 2012
3:34 pm
Is one a better example than the other Josef?
Not that I can see.
too little time
October 9th, 2012
3:35 pm
“I have been told by people who have lived in places like Turkey that Arabs are characteristically two-faced.
Your source’s credibility is undercut by the fact that Turks are NOT Arabs in the first place and in fact would be insulted to be called such. And vice versa, I’m sure.
Jay, Town crierf neither stated nor implied that the the person living in Turkey was an Arab. He merely said that someone in Turkey commented on the Arabs… and later the topic included Pakistan.
I, living in the US, can make a statement about Arabs, too, without the U.S. being an Arab country. YOU, Jay, misread the Town crier’s meaning. Try a little harder next time.
To be clear, I have talked to and read MANY instances of Muslims on the Arabian peninsula who consider themselves superior to Muslims in other parts of the world. I don’t doubt what Town crier has stated.
On the topic, though, is a tougher problem. How do we affect the plight of women in countries whee they are oppressed…. without the use of force? I don’t think we can. The Taliban could care less about U.S. aid. The Taliban is perfectly happy to cut the noses off of their women and hold them as slaves in their compounds. Even though they live in abject poverty, they could care less about our money. They want power and control of their tribal regions. So unlike the economic pressure that we put Iran to force change in that country, economic pressure will not work in Afghanistan or Pakistan. Do we just abandon women in those countries to live their lives in misery? Do we spend billions/trillions to try (not necessarily succeed) to affect change in those countries?
The day will come… sooner rather than later… when we no longer need Middle East oil. When that happens, lives for women in those countries will get measurably harsher. Do we abandon them because it is none of our business?
Brosephus™
October 9th, 2012
3:35 pm
Barack Obama gives a [good gosh-darn] about Indians.
You had to use a whole bottle of Formula 409 to clean that up, huh?
stands for decibels
October 9th, 2012
3:36 pm
and yes, I’m totally straying off topic, but just because I can:
8 Facts That Prove Our Govt. Is Not Going Broke
and I’m gonna skip straight to Fact #8:
8. Won’t our kids be forced to shoulder the debt we leave behind?
Yes, this is a real tearjerker. Who among us wants to pawn off our debts onto our kids? A sad thought, if were true. But it’s not. Government debt, unlike our mortgages, is rarely repaid in full. Instead they roll over. The cost to taxpayers is the interest we pay on the outstanding debt and the refinancing of it. With the global economy at stall speed there is no danger in the foreseeable future of rising interest rates.
What about in 30 years when our darlings are at the helm? The answer depends on the economy, not on debt. If we borrow cheaply now to put our people back to work, if we invest fully in funding higher education, and if we build up our crumbling infrastructure and tend to the environment, then we’ll leave behind a prosperous economy. Debt will shrink over time as the economy grows. And more revenues will come in as our people go back to work.
However, if we become obsessed with debt and deficits, and slash to the bone the programs that develop future prosperity, we’ll leave behind a faltering economy and an even bigger environmental mess.
Debt hysteria is like a pandemic that quickly cripples logical thinking. Once infected, Very Important People with Very Impressive Degrees sound like fools.
Let’s hope there’s a cure…and soon.
getalife
October 9th, 2012
3:36 pm
jk,
Pakistan is liberal?
UNCLE SAMANTHA
October 9th, 2012
3:36 pm
everyone relax
all we need to do is keep giving foreign aid to pakistan
then everything will be ok
stands for decibels
October 9th, 2012
3:37 pm
You had to use a whole bottle of Formula 409 to clean that up, huh?
You should see my Costco bills.
GT
October 9th, 2012
3:38 pm
They hide Bin Laden, shoot women, and have nukes. I think we crank the helicopter up and have a couple of night tours over the main roads in Pakistan, maybe let off a few rounds of missiles, to let them know we are there and come on home. Then announce we killed someone they are hiding and we won’t tell who he is. They couldn’t find Bin Laden less than a mile from their military school, so presumably they would have not known we had shot or not shot Bin Laden if we hadn’t told them. Now they are either going to tell us we have not kill someone, or tell us all are accounted for or going to tell the world we kill someone we have not. It would be interesting how little or more they know.
josef
October 9th, 2012
3:38 pm
BROSEPHUS
Obummer
October 9th, 2012
3:41 pm
Bo: he’s what’s for dinner
skipper
October 9th, 2012
3:41 pm
Too Little,
Good job.You described them as the snot-rag turds they are……………there is a difference between prejudice of perception and true dislike because a group of folks just “ain’t worth a $h*t……
Brosephus™
October 9th, 2012
3:41 pm
dB
I don’t have many bookmarks on my android, but that is one of the first sites I did put on my list. It is still a daily read thanks to you.
josef
Thought so.
skipper
October 9th, 2012
3:42 pm
p.s. Jay,
I still like your Friday music choices…………..
josef
October 9th, 2012
3:42 pm
JAY
Of course not the way YOU see it…you’re trapped into the black-white dichotomy as the begin all and end all of racism in our country. It is a limited perspective and an approach that does little to look at the matter from the commonalities of the nature of such horrors when they raise their ugly heads. It allows a free pass for way too many. It’s white and black America’s own version of the Get Out of Leviticus Free Card…
Joe Hussein Mama
October 9th, 2012
3:43 pm
too little time — “Jay, Town crierf neither stated nor implied that the the person living in Turkey was an Arab. He merely said that someone in Turkey commented on the Arabs”
If the speaker wasn’t himself an Arab, then why would it matter that he was in Turkey?
“I, living in the US, can make a statement about Arabs, too, without the U.S. being an Arab country.”
And in such a case, why would anyone want give your statement any credence?
“YOU, Jay, misread the Town crier’s meaning. Try a little harder next time.”
FWIW, I don’t think you’ve clarified it at all, despite your effort.
Jm
October 9th, 2012
3:45 pm
Does Deal go to the RGA meetings, talk with Christie, Walker, Daniels, kasich, Scott etc and think: ah these idiots, I have nothing to learn from them
Because the GA economic performance that is so much worse than theirs would seem to indicate Deal doesn’t have a clue, and worse, isn’t trying to get one
That Black Guy
October 9th, 2012
3:47 pm
larry
October 9th, 2012
2:07 pm
mitt thinks we should dictate change and is dead wrong as usual
Its the Bush doctrine. Its what you get when your foreign policy ” experts” are from that failed adminstration.
LinkReport this comment.Class of ‘98
October 9th, 2012
2:08 pm
What’s wrong, Jay? This column isn’t about some poll that shows Obama with an insurmountable lead, which is what you write about 99% of the time lately.
____________________________________________________________________
WTF is wrong with you people?
Re-read Jay’s post. It had NOTHING to do with Obama, Bush, Romney, Libs, Cons or American politics!
This is a tragic story about a courageous young lady who dared speak out about the treatment she and others face in HER country.
I don’t think Jay posted this as a platform for a bunch of jackholes to fling UNRELATED partisaned poo.
Grow the F’k up.
******************************************************
Jay, do you know if the US has offered any assistance in her medical care? Has a fund been set up to help with the cost of her treatment?
Thulsa Doom
October 9th, 2012
3:49 pm
“And then Fred lowered his shoulder and ran through you like you were an Al Groh defense.”
Nice one Jay. Except that I’m like the Alabama defense. And you know about God’s 11th commandment.
“Thou shalt not run the football on the Alabama defense”.
moonbat betty
October 9th, 2012
3:49 pm
Thulsa Doom @ 3:20:
Shoot, that ain’t nutin’.
Kam would do that with one armed tied behind his back!
too little time
October 9th, 2012
3:50 pm
Joe, the point wasn’t that I or someone in Turkey might have a bogus opinion about Arabs.
The point is that one does not have to be an Arab to have opinions about Arabs. One can certainly shoot down Towncrier’s Turk or my own opinion about Arabs, but you cannot simply dismiss all opinions about Arabs that do not originate in an Arabian country.
stands for decibels
October 9th, 2012
3:50 pm
It is still a daily read thanks to you.
Bros, I don’t always read cheezy, badly-formatted blogspot pages maintained by potty-mouthed, left-wing linguistics professors.
But when I do, I read… Rude Pundit.
Stay thirsty, my friends.
That Black Guy
October 9th, 2012
3:51 pm
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
2:00 pm
“I’ve always had a funny feeling about Pakistan, from Bush claiming they were our ally to keeping Bin Laden safe and hid for 6 years.”
I have been told by people who have lived in places like Turkey that Arabs are characteristically two-faced.
_________________________________________________________________________
During my 18 months in Sinop, Turkey, I found the Turks I encountered were warm, friendly, and open people.
josef
October 9th, 2012
3:51 pm
SFD
Wonder if the U-ne-ga Chief Romney knows that the Communist Kenyan appointed a Mormon as head of the BIA?
Joe Hussein Mama
October 9th, 2012
3:52 pm
Doom — “Except that I’m like the Alabama defense.”
Needs a tutor to get through Remedial English and doesn’t have a degree?
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
3:52 pm
“I note your eviction of the Old Testament from the Christian Bible, Towncrier. I’m curious though: Which version of the Bible do you use personally? Does it too contain the Old Testament? Is it not the same God speaking in both?”
I use the NIV and NASB primarily. Yes, both of these translations contain the Old Testament. YOU used the word “Christian” in the post to which I was responding. The NT represents an entirely new covenant, as detailed by Paul in the book of Romans and elsewhere. There is no theocracy established by the NT and none of the commands of the OT are literally binding. There is no need to go to Jerusalem several times a year to participate in religious feasts, no need to sacrifice animals for the atonement of sins, no need to circumcise male infants on the eighth day, no need to need to tithe 10% of your earnings, no need to stone people for crimes like adultery and murder and so on.
As to the passages in the OT that command violence towards Jews (as in stoning) or gentiles, these are always for a specific reason and against a specific person or people at a specific time. They are not open-ended commands. The genocide commanded against the foreigners occurs, it appears, after a considerable period of time (as when God tells Abraham He is not going to bring his offspring into the “promised land” for hundreds of years since the sin of the people living there was “not yet complete”). And, even then, it appears that if the Canaanites had been willing to repent, the slaughter would never had happened (judging by the fact that a prostitute did and was spared – even though the command was to leave no one alive). The book of Jonah is another good example of God wanting people to live rather than die (as in declared in Ezekiel 18). But no where is the violence commanded against foreigners because they weren’t Jews but because they were acting wickedly. That is the ostensible reason for the Flood and for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
It is indeed the same God. The same God who will, the Bible teaches, send people to Hell and (I believe after a time of punishment) annihilate them. The bottom line is this: neither God or we (to a much less extent) can put up or live with people who act really badly – even if they are family members or once close friends – if they don’t wish to change their ways. The God presented in the Koran (Allah) is not at all like the God presented in the Bible. Yahweh if primarily interested in people being good and righteous like him. Allah is primarily interested in people being Muslim in faith.
Brosephus™
October 9th, 2012
3:52 pm
WTF is wrong with you people?
TBG
Welcome to the bleachers. The view is definitely different sitting up here.
getalife
October 9th, 2012
3:53 pm
Pale face treated the Indian, AA, Latino, Muslim and women like crap.
Pale face will be the minority one day so guess what will happen?
Do you believe in karma?
stands for decibels
October 9th, 2012
3:53 pm
Wonder if the U-ne-ga Chief Romney knows that the Communist Kenyan appointed a Mormon as head of the BIA?
it was news to me, so…
/drive-by
josef
October 9th, 2012
3:55 pm
Arabs are fine people. Their culture has given the world a lot and did pull Christian Europe kicking and screaming out of the Dark Ages, and then entered one of their own. Anybody who doubts what the Arabs can do given the freedom need only look no further than the contributions of the Lebanese and Syrian Americans to our common science,medicine, art, music, stage and drama…every facet of our greater society.
moonbat betty
October 9th, 2012
3:59 pm
“Pale face treated the Indian, AA, Latino, Muslim and women like crap.
Pale face will be the minority one day so guess what will happen?”
What?
josef
October 9th, 2012
3:59 pm
getalife
Just being EOI, but paleface will be the plurality, not the minority. The divisions amongst the others are just as strong as any ever were…that’s why I stay on my soapbox about moving beyond the black-white. If we don’t, as we do become more highly diverse, we are headed straight for Balkanization if we don’t start preparing for it now.
DebbieDoRight - Plantation Liberal (In Good Standing)
October 9th, 2012
3:59 pm
Jam: So they use their nitwit McCarthyite proxies in the Republican Party to wage war on the “competition. Not insignificantly because public broadcasting and collective ownership makes them look like the filth purveyors they are
Yep — you got that right. Money, not quality, matters above all else dontya know….
Pass the Cheesy Grits Please
October 9th, 2012
4:00 pm
It is indeed the same God. The same God who will, the Bible teaches, send people to Hell and (I believe after a time of punishment) annihilate them. The bottom line is this: neither God or we (to a much less extent) can put up or live with people who act really badly – even if they are family members or once close friends – if they don’t wish to change their ways. The God presented in the Koran (Allah) is not at all like the God presented in the Bible. Yahweh if primarily interested in people being good and righteous like him. Allah is primarily interested in people being Muslim in faith.
At some point mankind will get beyond such foolishness.
Its tough to deal with but there is no god. when you die your dead.
No magic man in the sky grants wishes ( prayers )
It may take a thousand years but someday man will move beyond his need for Religion.
For now we are stuck with the lesser educated of us who tend to cling to it.
Welcome to the Occupation
October 9th, 2012
4:01 pm
josef: “Their culture has given the world a lot and did pull Christian Europe kicking and screaming out of the Dark Ages, and then entered one of their own.”
Kind of funny how it happened that way isn’t it?
moonbat betty
October 9th, 2012
4:01 pm
Oh, Jam has been searching for McCarthies again?
Anyone want to go snipe hunting with me this weekend?
Thulsa Doom
October 9th, 2012
4:02 pm
“Shoot, that ain’t nutin’.
Kam would do that with one armed tied behind his back!”
Well as a matter of fact I do have it on good word from Harry Reid from an impeccable source that Kam would have done it with both arms and both legs tied behind his back and weighted down by concrete blocks all the while looking hotter than Doomy in his own tight, form fitting speedos.
Joe Hussein Mama
October 9th, 2012
4:03 pm
too little time — “The point is that one does not have to be an Arab to have opinions about Arabs.”
FWIW, I think you’re misinterpreting Jay’s criticism in your defense of what Towncrier had to say.
“One can certainly shoot down Towncrier’s Turk or my own opinion about Arabs, but you cannot simply dismiss all opinions about Arabs that do not originate in an Arabian country.”
Would an opinion about Arabs have more credence if Towncrier had heard it expressed in Japan, for example? I suspect you would not think so; nor would I.
I think Jay’s point was that not all countries in that region are Arab and that not all peoples in that region are, either. In particular, I’ve found that Iranians and Turks don’t care to be called ‘Arabs,’ and there certainly could be other groups in the region who don’t care for the appellation, either. Citing an opinion from a person who might well not have even *been* Arab, that opinion having been expressed in a country that’s not itself part of the Arab world — well, it strips that opinion of a great deal of its currency IMO.
Had Towncrier heard the opinion expressed on the streets of, say Dubai, UAE or Dammam, Saudi Arabia, then IMO it could have been much more impactful.
moonbat betty
October 9th, 2012
4:04 pm
“Its tough to deal with but there is no god. when you die your dead”
How do you know what happens?
Thulsa Doom
October 9th, 2012
4:04 pm
“For now we are stuck with the lesser educated of us who tend to cling to it.”
You almost got it right. As Obama said they cling to their guns and religion. Such an open minded president he is.
Joe Hussein Mama
October 9th, 2012
4:05 pm
M. Berrry — “How do you know what happens?”
How does anyone?
moonbat betty
October 9th, 2012
4:05 pm
Thulsa,
LOL – I just spit my liver and onion sandwich all over the monitor!
josef
October 9th, 2012
4:05 pm
OCCUPATION
It’s what happens when the clerical class puts a stranglehold on the secular society, A Dark Age descends and does so very rapidly and very thoroughly….
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
4:05 pm
“There’s more murder and mayhem in the Old Testament than in any Die Hard or DOOM movie.”
Here is what I think you fail to grasp, DDR: there now is and has been a whole lot of “murder and mayhem” throughout human history. I mean, the 20th century is unbelievable in that regard. I think most westerners live in a bubble – a fantasy land. I watched the movie “Blood Diamond” just because a missionary I knew from Africa told me some stories of the unbelievable violence going on in that continent. Tribalism is a great evil. The gangs that infect our cities are really a form of tribalism.
Unlike perhaps a lot of liberals, I do not subscribe to the idea that people are inherently good. They have good within them, to be sure. But the reality is more like that depicted in novels like “Heart of Darkness” and “The Lord of the Flies”. Just imagine what America might be like if we removed (as Konrad might say) the “constraints” imposed by a widespread, well organized and armed police force.
Pass the Cheesy Grits Please
October 9th, 2012
4:06 pm
Yes. Islam, Judaism, and Christianity all come from the same source. Its just the interatation that is different.
All three believe in the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve etc.
The Jews went with Moses, Islam with Abraham, and Christians with Jesus.
Jay
October 9th, 2012
4:06 pm
In other words, Towncrier, the brutal violence and mass murder ordered by the God in the Old Testament was JUSTIFIED, as opposed to the brutal violence and mass murder in the Koran.
Those Canaanites had it coming to them, right?
Pass the Cheesy Grits Please
October 9th, 2012
4:07 pm
How do you know what happens?
Common Sense.
josef
October 9th, 2012
4:07 pm
CHEESY
“For now we are stuck with the lesser educated of us who tend to cling to it.”
I’m religious and while I may be far from the most educated, I would say that I don’t fall into the lesser category either.
Thulsa Doom
October 9th, 2012
4:08 pm
moonbat betty
October 9th, 2012
4:04 pm
“Its tough to deal with but there is no god. when you die your dead”
Sagan had a lot of interest quotes on religion. Most of them seemed negative if not critical of man made religion. But he had one interesting quote and I paraphrase “I do not think I’m so smart as to “know” that there is no God.”
We can believe that there is a God or that there isn’t a God. But we do not “know” for sure. An interesting question is what happens if you don’t believe and you’re wrong?
josef
October 9th, 2012
4:08 pm
CHEESY
All three are Abrahamic…
josef
October 9th, 2012
4:10 pm
THULSA
Which is why I maintain, like it or not, we’re all ultimately agnostics….
josef
October 9th, 2012
4:10 pm
JAY
Them and the Indians…
DebbieDoRight - Plantation Liberal (In Good Standing)
October 9th, 2012
4:11 pm
Joe: Needs a tutor to get through Remedial English and doesn’t have a degree?
Good one Joe. good one………..
Thulsa Doom
October 9th, 2012
4:12 pm
“I watched the movie “Blood Diamond” just because a missionary I knew from Africa told me some stories of the unbelievable violence going on in that continent.”
Life is cheap in much of the world.
“Tribalism is a great evil.”
The Tutsis agree with you. As do many other peoples too numerous to name.
JamVet
October 9th, 2012
4:15 pm
betty, open your eyes. The Tailgunner Joe scumbags are right there in front of you.
“I believe there is about 78 to 81 members of the Democratic Party that are members of the Communist Party.”
After a long pause, Alan West, R – Fl, adds that he is talking about the Congressional Progressive Caucus, a group of 76 of the more liberal Democrats in the U.S. House.
DDR, twelve one-hundredths.
Or 0.012.
That is the percentage of the US budget allocated to the outstanding, unrivaled PBS.
And Mitt the money-hider wants to eliminate it as some demented fiscally responsible maneuver???
F him. And his neofascist fans.
This brilliant man put the moron coddler’s foot in mouth syndrome in perspective:
Cutting PBS support (0.012% of budget) to help balance the Federal budget is like deleting text files to make room on your 500Gig hard drive. Neil deGrasse Tyson
getalife
October 9th, 2012
4:15 pm
“Syria Turkey Attack: NATO Ready To Defend Turkey “;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/09/syria-turkey-attack-nato-ready-to-defend_n_1950694.html
wolf will toss softballs to mitt today in a interview but he should ask mitt about this issue.
They BOTH suck
October 9th, 2012
4:16 pm
“Which is why I maintain, like it or not, we’re all ultimately agnostics….”
Don’t need all of you jumping on my bandwagon.
Pass the Cheesy Grits Please
October 9th, 2012
4:16 pm
An interesting question is what happens if you don’t believe and you’re wrong?
Pascals Wager.
Not a reason for believing in something with no evidence whatsoever.
1. Man does not need religion to have morality. I’m an atheist and I know killing someone is wrong.
2. Religion is holding us back in many ways from reaching our full potential.
moonbat betty
October 9th, 2012
4:16 pm
Thulsa 4:08 – well said.
Thulsa Doom
October 9th, 2012
4:16 pm
Pass the Cheesy Grits Please
October 9th, 2012
4:07 pm
How do you know what happens?
Common Sense.
I guess that Cheesy is thus smarter and has more common sense than some of the smartest men of the last 500 years. It takes a special person to think that they really and truly know for sure. And I do mean “special”.
josef
October 9th, 2012
4:17 pm
There’s nothing wrong with tribalism…there’s plenty wrong with what some have done in its name…
Matti
October 9th, 2012
4:18 pm
We can believe that there is a God or that there isn’t a God. But we do not “know” for sure. An interesting question is what happens if you don’t believe and you’re wrong?
Actually, I think it’s perfectly fine to believe there is a God. I do. I am but a speck in this universe, and freely admit that if I were able to fill my little head with all the knowledge it could hold, I still would not understand but a tiny percentage of a fraction of the knowledge that exists. It’s not a stretch to believe in something much greater than myself.
That being said, those of you who believe in God AND claim to know what He/She thinks, wants, or wants ME to do…. well, you’re just full of shizz. You’re just as tiny as I am, and all your yammering won’t make you any better. So…. *ppppbbbbblllllllpppppppppt!*
Pass the Cheesy Grits Please
October 9th, 2012
4:18 pm
Just imagine what America might be like if we removed (as Konrad might say) the “constraints” imposed by a widespread, well organized and armed police force.
The police in the UK aren’t armed.
They are pretty civilized.
moonbat betty
October 9th, 2012
4:19 pm
Cheesy, from a scientific standpoint, where does your energy go?
Pass the Cheesy Grits Please
October 9th, 2012
4:19 pm
I guess that Cheesy is thus smarter and has more common sense than some of the smartest men of the last 500 years. It takes a special person to think that they really and truly know for sure. And I do mean “special”.
Thank you.
Pass the Cheesy Grits Please
October 9th, 2012
4:20 pm
Cheesy, from a scientific standpoint, where does your energy go?
Why floating up to heaven of course.
moonbat betty
October 9th, 2012
4:21 pm
JamVet 4:15 – I’m just ribbing you a little bit.
I know there are one or two out there!
DebbieDoRight - Plantation Liberal (In Good Standing)
October 9th, 2012
4:21 pm
The Jews went with Moses, Islam with Abraham, and Christians with Jesus
In school, Catholic/private, one of my teachers introduced a reason as to why there is conflict between the Jews and the Muslim/Arab/Egyptian.
Sister Agnes stated it stemmed from the tragic story of Hagar, Abraham and Sarah.
If you know the story, I won’t get into it again, but basically when Abraham thew Hagar and his son out into the desert with only a little water and food; Hagar prayed to deliverance from Jehovah, who saved her, and asked for retribution for her and her son against Abraham.
The retribution, in short, is the constant warfare and strife between the two peoples that last still and until Abraham, (the father of Israel), apologizes and makes amends to Hagar, (Egypt/Arab/Muslim), the strife will continue forever.
I’ve got to look up the verse she was quoting/lecturing from — but according to her, that is the cause and root of the distrust and hatred towards the two races.
moonbat betty
October 9th, 2012
4:22 pm
Cheesy: “Why floating up to heaven of course.”
I said “scientifc” Einstein.
josef
October 9th, 2012
4:23 pm
So, CHEESY
What’s your take on Maimonides?
BOTH
Pass the Cheesy Grits Please
October 9th, 2012
4:24 pm
2. Religion is holding us back in many ways from reaching our full potential.
Surprised no one called me out on this one.
Had an answer ready to go.
Here it is.
Ever notice how the schools in your community are crumbling. Yet there is a sparkling new Church on every corner. Especially in the South. Even Mega churches.
Imagine if that money were used for something useful. Like Science and the Arts.
One day it will.
By then we will all be dust or “energy” lol floating around somewhere.
josef
October 9th, 2012
4:25 pm
DDR
Have you read Bruce Feiler on all that? If not, I recommend him highly…
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
4:25 pm
“In other words, Towncrier, the brutal violence and mass murder ordered by the God in the Old Testament was JUSTIFIED, as opposed to the brutal violence and mass murder in the Koran. Those Canaanites had it coming to them, right?”
I hope you are NOT saying that wrongdoing should go unpunished – that someone like Jerry Sandusky should be relaxing in his home right now. If there is a God, I think the punishment of all wrongdoing is justified (in a godless universe, I would say nothing is consequential and morals are meaningless like everything else). According to the Bible, God is the one who instituted the death penalty (though He didn’t ordain death so much as He removed the means of us all living forever). And, according to the Bible, He applied it to His own sinless son. We also all pay for the sins of others. We all die because of Adam’s sin. And just because (hypothetically) an innocent little baby dies because his mother was a crack addict or from physical abuse does not mean that baby will not be in heaven and live forever. Indeed, I suspect probably all of the Canaanite children killed by the Jews will be there too. Allowing some of the Canaanites and their children to live (as the Jews actually did) was to perpetuate an interminable ethic conflict that we see to this day. But let me again impress upon you that up until the last moment, the Canaanites could have repented from their wickedness and have been spared (like the prostitute Rahab did and the Ninevites did).
That said, I think your quarrel is not with me.
Joe Hussein Mama
October 9th, 2012
4:25 pm
Doom — “An interesting question is what happens if you don’t believe and you’re wrong?”
An even more interesting question is what happens if you *do* believe and you’re *still* wrong.
Thulsa Doom
October 9th, 2012
4:25 pm
“Actually, I think it’s perfectly fine to believe there is a God. I do. I am but a speck in this universe, and freely admit that if I were able to fill my little head with all the knowledge it could hold, I still would not understand but a tiny percentage of a fraction of the knowledge that exists. It’s not a stretch to believe in something much greater than myself.”
Very nicely written Matti. Very nice.
moonbat betty
October 9th, 2012
4:27 pm
“The police in the UK aren’t armed.
They are pretty civilized.”
Hey, I hear they are looking for a new Police Chief in Chicago.
josef
October 9th, 2012
4:27 pm
CHEESY
Why challenge you on that. It’s factual. Then you go on in the explantion that no one asked for the exhibit your own limited perspective…the Mega churches are there from sea to shining sea, the South has no market cornered there…
josef
October 9th, 2012
4:28 pm
If there is no G-d, then I’ve lost nothing. If there is, then I bet on the winning team.
barking frog
October 9th, 2012
4:29 pm
We do know that when we
die our bodies stop growing
and decay. All the rest is
supposition or superstition.
Pass the Cheesy Grits Please
October 9th, 2012
4:29 pm
Either way gotta go. Getting busy at work.
Have fun.
josef
October 9th, 2012
4:29 pm
MATTI
Well put, a thumbs up from the Amen Corner…
Matti
October 9th, 2012
4:30 pm
Thulsa,
Thank you. I notice that you cherry picked, though, and left out the part where I explain that you don’t/can’t possibly know any more about God than I do, and is therefore full of it when trying to tell others what to think or do based on “God says” non-logic.
DebbieDoRight - Plantation Liberal (In Good Standing)
October 9th, 2012
4:30 pm
Jam: Or 0.012. That is the percentage of the US budget allocated to the outstanding, unrivaled PBS. And Mitt the money-hider wants to eliminate it as some demented fiscally responsible maneuver???
F him. And his neofascist fans.
Couldn’t have put it better Jam. You sir, are as mighty a wordsmith as our dearly departed Shakespeare!!
josef: Never read him — but now that you’ve hipped me to him, nerd that I am, (I just LOVE research!), I’m going to google him, Amazon him, and buy ALL his books.
You always stimulate my mind. If it wasn’t for Unmentionable, I’d grab you up in a minute!!
barking frog
October 9th, 2012
4:31 pm
josef
a great deal depends on
the price of the bet.
Joe Hussein Mama
October 9th, 2012
4:31 pm
Towncrier — ” (in a godless universe, I would say nothing is consequential and morals are meaningless like everything else)”
I would say that many atheists would disagree with you.
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
4:31 pm
“Man does not need religion to have morality. I’m an atheist and I know killing someone is wrong.”
If there is no God, why is is wrong? Animals kill all of the time without compunction. If we are just an animal, why not? Cannibals have killed also without compunction. Why are they wrong and you right?
getalife
October 9th, 2012
4:32 pm
Debbie just cured the gay
Thulsa Doom
October 9th, 2012
4:33 pm
“An even more interesting question is what happens if you *do* believe and you’re *still* wrong’.
Joe mama,
Nothing. You just become a pile of dust according to the atheists that I’ve known.
But if you’re an atheist and you’re wrong then you’ve got a judgement to deal with. Just sayin…
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
4:36 pm
“I would say that many atheists would disagree with you.”
Many have. Please tell me what you (if you are an atheist) think is consequential in a world that – through global warming, a nuclear war, some unknown and horrible disease, being stuck by an asteroid and so on – could end in the next 100 years, leaving nothing but matter. Why would it matter if I helped old ladies across the street or axe murdered them? Solomon makes something of the same argument (in a world where there is God!) in Ecclesiastes.
They BOTH suck
October 9th, 2012
4:37 pm
“But if you’re an atheist and you’re wrong then you’ve got a judgement to deal with. Just sayin…”
Judgment from whom? Your interpretation of your Christian God?
Joe Hussein Mama
October 9th, 2012
4:37 pm
Towncrier — “If we are just an animal, why not?”
Where’d that come from?
josef
October 9th, 2012
4:38 pm
FROG
Well, if we go G-d and not dogma, it’s not a high price…
getalife
October 9th, 2012
4:38 pm
“If there is no G-d, then I’ve lost nothing. If there is, then I bet on the winning team”
I remember them coming in the room to pray before surgery, it made me more nervous because it was like reading my last rights.
DebbieDoRight - Plantation Liberal (In Good Standing)
October 9th, 2012
4:39 pm
getalfie: Debbie just cured the gay
Ha.Ha. Very funny! josef has a way of looking at a problem or equation differently that is very “enticing” to me. I LOVE brains — I think I love brains more than I love men with muscles………………it’s a close tie.
Anyway, in describing josef i would have to give you a “for instance” statement.
For instance — we may look at a blue cloth and just see a blue cloth — josef will see the yellow, the green, the cotton, and the tag that says, “Made In China”. For me, that quality he has is very…………………….intriguing.
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
4:39 pm
“I notice that you cherry picked, though, and left out the part where I explain that you don’t/can’t possibly know any more about God than I do, and is therefore full of it when trying to tell others what to think or do based on “God says” non-logic.”
That is, of course, assuming that no religious text is a communication from God. Otherwise, what you say would be false.
Thulsa Doom
October 9th, 2012
4:39 pm
“I notice that you cherry picked, though, and left out the part where I explain that you don’t/can’t possibly know any more about God than I do, and is therefore full of it when trying to tell others what to think or do based on “God says” non-logic”.
Matti,
I did not say that I know more about God than you do. Where did you come up with that? And I’m not preaching to others about what God says to think or do. That’s up to them to find out.
I do think that the Bible gives us clear guidance on many things when read correctly. Unfortunately I also think the Bible is the most misinterpreted document of all time.
They BOTH suck
October 9th, 2012
4:40 pm
getalife
I’m agnostic, but something worked……..
Matti
October 9th, 2012
4:40 pm
Since souls allegedly last forever, and bodies are clearly temporary, I’m sorta leaning toward reincarnation. You know, recycling. I feel like I must have been a man in my previous life. This womanhood thing is punishment for selfish, insensitive, chauvinistic behavior last time around. Totally.
(Makes just a much sense as any other explanation. Here’s a song:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ul7X5js1vE
josef
October 9th, 2012
4:40 pm
DDR
Nyanh…you just want the boa in the divorce settlement…
Joe Hussein Mama
October 9th, 2012
4:41 pm
Doom — “Joe mama, Nothing. You just become a pile of dust according to the atheists that I’ve known.”
You’ve misinterpreted what I said. What if there is a god and you were a theist, but you either believed in the *wrong* god or adhered to the *wrong* faith? What then?
Pascal maintained that his wager was binary; that you either believed or not and that god either existed or not. But who’s to say that his wager isn’t more like a roulette wheel — in which you have to adhere to the *correct* belief system/faith in order to ‘win.’ In that case, theists are in the same position as atheists — no one knows who’s right and who’s wrong. And even the faithful can be incorrect.
“But if you’re an atheist and you’re wrong then you’ve got a judgement to deal with. Just sayin…”
Shrug. If the ‘right’ faith happens to be Shinto or Zoroastrianism, so do you.
DebbieDoRight - Plantation Liberal (In Good Standing)
October 9th, 2012
4:42 pm
I remember them coming in the room to pray before surgery, it made me more nervous because it was like reading my last rights.
Too funny!!
PS: They should’ve prayed for LSU — just saying…………
Mary Elizabeth
October 9th, 2012
4:43 pm
That Black Guy, 3:47 pm
“This is a tragic story about a courageous young lady who dared speak out about the treatment she and others face in HER country.” (Specifically, about the treatment and perceptions of women in her country.)
——————————————————————
I agree with your post.
getalife
October 9th, 2012
4:43 pm
Both,
“If I die before I sleep, pray the Lord my soul to keep.”
I repeated this in my mind a hundred time before they put me to sleep just in case.
Matti
October 9th, 2012
4:44 pm
Thulsa,
Didn’t mean to imply. I meant “you” in a general sense of people who do that, as per my first post on the subject. It was kind of the most important part of what I said. I could well be an idiot for believing there’s something bigger out there. I’m certainly no genius if I’m right. I don’t believe it matters what I believe. I don’t believe God’s feelings are affected one way or another by our insignificant little thoughts.
They BOTH suck
October 9th, 2012
4:44 pm
JHM @ 4:41
Agreed
moonbat betty
October 9th, 2012
4:44 pm
“I remember them coming in the room to pray before surgery, it made me more nervous because it was like reading my last rights.”
Serious question, getalife:
Do you think a near death experience expands or diminshes faith in a higher power (or has no effect)?
DebbieDoRight - Plantation Liberal (In Good Standing)
October 9th, 2012
4:45 pm
I feel like I must have been a man in my previous life. This womanhood thing is punishment for selfish, insensitive, chauvinistic behavior last time around. Totally.
Ha! I feel the OPPOSITE Matti!! I feel I must’ve gotten something right in a past life, because this time around, I get a chance to be a woman!
josef — You caught me!! Can’t fool you for a minute!
getalife
October 9th, 2012
4:45 pm
“PS: They should’ve prayed for LSU — just saying”
Ouch, Florida and South Carolina are good teams this year.
Any team but Alabama.
Joe Hussein Mama
October 9th, 2012
4:46 pm
Towncrier — “Please tell me what you (if you are an atheist) think is consequential in a world that – through global warming, a nuclear war, some unknown and horrible disease, being stuck by an asteroid and so on – could end in the next 100 years, leaving nothing but matter.”
The here and now. If disaster comes, it comes. But I’m not going to live the one life I have cowering in a corner in fear of what might happen.
“Why would it matter if I helped old ladies across the street or axe murdered them?”
If one doesn’t want to *fall victim* to such a society, then one shouldn’t *perpetuate* such a society. If you’d prefer to live in a society in which the elderly are helped across the street and not killed with axes, then it would behoove you to help them across the street and not murder them with axes.
You might call it enlightened self-interest, but in the end, it’s just as good as religious altruism for advancing a society.
Jay
October 9th, 2012
4:46 pm
sheets
josef
October 9th, 2012
4:46 pm
One of the good things about the MOT thing is that it does not deny the afterlife, nor does it say there is. It’s a matter of choice/belief/faith whether to believe it or not. Our concern, though, is to live our lives in pursuit of justice in human terms. The Day of Judgment is metaphoric in many ways for the final day’s stock-taking of “did you treat others justly and did you leave the world a better place for having past through.”
getalife
October 9th, 2012
4:47 pm
“Do you think a near death experience expands or diminshes faith in a higher power (or has no effect)?”
Good question.
It depends if you see the light.
Georgia
October 9th, 2012
4:48 pm
Was the shooting inspired by Sharia Law?
DebbieDoRight - Plantation Liberal (In Good Standing)
October 9th, 2012
4:48 pm
— in which you have to adhere to the *correct* belief system/faith in order to ‘win.’ In that case, theists are in the same position as atheists — no one knows who’s right and who’s wrong. And even the faithful can be incorrect.
Good point.
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. — Matthew 7:13
Pass the Cheesy Grits Please
October 9th, 2012
4:48 pm
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/10/09/14316083-1-in-5-americans-is-religiously-unaffiliated-survey-shows?lite
Just to piggy back on what I was talking about earlier.
And the numbers are only growing as shown by the generational change.
josef
October 9th, 2012
4:49 pm
moonbat
I know you asked getalife…but in my case it enhanced it….
DDR
getalife
October 9th, 2012
4:52 pm
moonbat,
Yes, josef saw the light but I did not.
To me, it was deep sleep that I did not want to wake up because there was no pain.
Thulsa Doom
October 9th, 2012
4:53 pm
Matti,
Okay. You were speaking generally when you said “you”. I hear ya. We may be on opposite sides of the political spectrum but I do agree with you on that. But while I agree with you I also think that many people abuse and make the Bible adapt to their particular views or to the particular social mores of the day. JMHO of course and I sure as hell don’t have all the answers. I just know that the bible is constantly abused whether it be by David Koresh, the Spanish Inquisition, or whatever. I just hope people don’t confuse the evils of man made organized religion with a belief in God.
“I don’t believe it matters what I believe. I don’t believe God’s feelings are affected one way or another by our insignificant little thoughts.”
Well if there is a loving God then I think it does matter what you or I or anyone else believes. And if he is a God that loves you and if he is omniscient and all that then your and my little insignificant thoughts are important after all. Just little ole Doomy’s humble opinion anyway.
Matti
October 9th, 2012
4:54 pm
I guess I didn’t get near enough. DANG those doctors! Why didn’t they let me go?
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
4:56 pm
“The here and now. If disaster comes, it comes. But I’m not going to live the one life I have cowering in a corner in fear of what might happen.”
Who said anything about fear? I was speaking philosophically. What did Camus start of saying in The Myth of Sisyphus? The first philosophic question is suicide. What does he and Nietzsche say we shouldn’t? Because we should be “strong” in the face of nothingness.
“If one doesn’t want to *fall victim* to such a society, then one shouldn’t *perpetuate* such a society. If you’d prefer to live in a society in which the elderly are helped across the street and not killed with axes, then it would behoove you to help them across the street and not murder them with axes….You might call it enlightened self-interest, but in the end, it’s just as good as religious altruism for advancing a society.”
I would say neither appears to be working real well presently (or ever really). Konrad is still right, in my opinion.
Matti
October 9th, 2012
4:56 pm
“And if he is a God that loves you and if he is omniscient and all that then your and my little insignificant thoughts are important after all.”
Wouldn’t we all be happier if we could believe that? I know I would. Wishin’ don’t make it so.
josef
October 9th, 2012
4:59 pm
Meanwhile in the much maligned Magnolia State…shoo-eee me and Unmentionable together ought to get ours free!
http://www.clarionledger.com/article/20121009/NEWS/310090043/Dining-discounts-offered-in-October-for-Mississippi-s-Racial-Reconciliation-Month?sour
Unbelievably out of touch and delusional
October 9th, 2012
5:00 pm
Obama apparently thought he won the debate
Realclearpolitics.com
getalife
October 9th, 2012
5:00 pm
Matti,
It is the doctors and nurses that bring you back.
The look on their faces was relief and happiness.
I had no idea what happened until they told me.
Don't Forget
October 9th, 2012
5:03 pm
Animals kill all of the time without compunction. If we are just an animal, why not?
We are not “just an animal”. We have knowledge and reason. That is plenty to justify laws that protect individuals from killing an all sorts of other harm.
getalife
October 9th, 2012
5:05 pm
josef,
That read like the Onion.
At least give a 50% discount.
Thulsa Doom
October 9th, 2012
5:05 pm
Matti,
I know lots of people who have a firm belief in God. And what I do notice for the most part is that many of them have a calmness about them even in times of great adversity such as cancer. Your belief in the good Lord is up to you- its what you or I make of it. Personally, I’ve got a lot of shyte to atone for myself and some penance to do. Not to mention changing some things to get to that state. It aint easy and it don’t happen overnight.
hiram
October 9th, 2012
5:06 pm
Religion has a huge negative impact on everyone and most living things on our little planet. Look at how much of our finite resources are wasted because of religion. The Easter Islands are a precursor to where we are headed. The inhabitants destroyed all of the vegetation on the island in the process of building their stupid statues to fullfil some made up religious nonesense that envolved who had the most statues. The result was that they almost starved, because they didn’t have any trees left to build boats, so they had to make a living off of what they could scavenger along the island’s shoreline. Religion is a form of insantity, period – it doesn’t warrant a discussion.
Joe Hussein Mama
October 9th, 2012
5:08 pm
Towncrier — “Who said anything about fear?”
“I would say neither appears to be working real well presently”
You asked me what I thought; I answered you honestly and forthrightly.
Matti
October 9th, 2012
5:10 pm
getalife,
I wasn’t that near. You didn’t see lights or tunnels or grandmas or anything? Are our DOGS waiting for us? That’s what everyone really wants to know!
getalife
October 9th, 2012
5:12 pm
“Are our DOGS waiting for us? That’s what everyone really wants to know!”
That would be great
hiram
October 9th, 2012
5:15 pm
Man’s inability to distinguish between what is real and what is imaginary will be the ultimate downfall of our species. It seems ridiculous, but it is true.
hiram
October 9th, 2012
5:17 pm
@ getalife
Yeah, your dogs will be waiting, and so will Elvis. If you can imagine it, then it will happen…
Welcome to the Occupation
October 9th, 2012
5:18 pm
“But if you’re an atheist and you’re wrong then you’ve got a judgement to deal with. Just sayin…”
Pascal!
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
5:20 pm
“You asked me what I thought; I answered you honestly and forthrightly.”
Fair enough. All of the atheists with whom I have debated this matter in the past have also said that the only thing that is consequential in a godless universe is the present moment hour or day. Solomon’s lament is that since nothing lasts or is permanent, it is all meaningless in the end – a chasing after the wind. I find that prospect very depressing (as I guess so did Nietzsche and Camus). Interestingly, the apostle Paul said that if we were facing no hope for eternal life then we should “eat, drink and be merry – for tomorrow we die”. That is what westerners with their wealth can perhaps do better than those living in third world countries. Frankly, I see no point in striving to build a better society in a godless universe as I feel the time would be better spent gratifying my own personal desires. There is no guarantee of tomorrow and so why not enjoy pleasures as much as you can?
hiram
October 9th, 2012
5:23 pm
@ welcome
Define atheist. Doesn’t it mean anyone who doesn’t suscribe to your particular nonsense – someone who is from a different region of our little planet where they made up their own nonsense? What happens if you were never exposed to anyone’s nonsense? Say, you’re a possum – are you going to burn in hell?
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
5:25 pm
“We are not “just an animal”. We have knowledge and reason. That is plenty to justify laws that protect individuals from killing an all sorts of other harm.”
Cannibals would beg to differ. Who are YOU, then, to impose YOUR “morality” on them? The ancient Greeks condoned and participated in pedophilia. They didn’t think it was wrong. Who are YOU, then, to impose YOUR “morality” on them? On what grounds? In other words, what is the objective source of your moral code?
hiram
October 9th, 2012
5:29 pm
@towncrier
It’s all learned behavior. What you learn depends on what culture you were born into. All you have to do is skip – not teach, one generation the regional nonsense, and then you can move on to sanity.
That Black Guy
October 9th, 2012
5:30 pm
DebbieDoRight – Plantation Liberal (In Good Standing)
October 9th, 2012
4:39 pm
Ha.Ha. Very funny! josef has a way of looking at a problem or equation differently that is very “enticing” to me. I LOVE brains — I think I love brains more than I love men with muscles………………it’s a close tie.
________________________________________
josef and Debbie sittin in a tree
K-I-S-S-I-N-G
First comes , love.
Then comes marrage…
Then comes Unmentionable with a baseball bat, a pair of pliers, and a blow torch…
Your Mother
October 9th, 2012
6:36 pm
Every Taliban should be rounded up and given a 50 calibur Bullet along with Pakistans intelligence agency, no trial, no discussion. I am sick and tired of these people using their religion as a weapon. No where in the Koran does it say shoot everyone you dont agree with. Just a bunch of low down dirty thugs. Would the wives learn how to cock their AK47 and use it against them while they sleep the world would be a better place. Women have worth in the world and were it not for them these so called Men would not have been born.
Joe Hussein Mama
October 9th, 2012
6:41 pm
Towncrier — “Frankly, I see no point in striving to build a better society in a godless universe as I feel the time would be better spent gratifying my own personal desires. There is no guarantee of tomorrow and so why not enjoy pleasures as much as you can?”
There’s also no guarantee of *disaster,* so why not try to inprove your lot and the lot of those around you? Look, it’s a canard of the religious right that atheists have no reason to behave in a socially responsible manner because nothing has value to us. I respond by pointing out that IMO, my life is INFINITELY more valuable to me than a theist’s life, because I only get one and it’s limited in length. Given that — and given that *all* human lives are likewise limited and finite, why should I try to harm or otherwise take advantage of others? Why not try to improve our shared lot in a *cooperative* fashion, even if our works may be impermanent and flawed?
FWIW, I think you have a rather limited and biased view of atheist thought and philosophy, and I think that your personal beliefs may cause you to prejudge us.
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
10:01 pm
“There’s also no guarantee of *disaster,* so why not try to inprove your lot and the lot of those around you?”
Because like even someone like Jimi Hendrix understood that castles made of sand fall into the sea eventually. All of our efforts are, in the end and as Solomon says, meaningless – a mere chasing after the wind. There is no real hope in a godless universe, in my opinion.
“Look, it’s a canard of the religious right that atheists have no reason to behave in a socially responsible manner because nothing has value to us.”
They may have a professed reason – but it simply doesn’t strike people on the “religious right” (as you put it) as a particularly good one. I mean, look at what Camus says in his “The Myth of Sisyphus”. He at least recognized and tried to face squarely the futility and absurdity of an existence without God. That’s why I like this particular essay: it’s gut level honest (unlike, I think, a lot of the agnostic posters here who haven’t – judging from their glib posts – given more than a second’s thought to ultimate questions of life like this one). His conclusion is that Sisyphus can be thought of as happy in his futility. But I don’t think that is a particularly persuasive conclusion.
“I respond by pointing out that IMO, my life is INFINITELY more valuable to me than a theist’s life, because I only get one and it’s limited in length. Given that — and given that *all* human lives are likewise limited and finite, why should I try to harm or otherwise take advantage of others? Why not try to improve our shared lot in a *cooperative* fashion, even if our works may be impermanent and flawed?”
Surely you recognize, as I tried to intimate in my last post, that you live a relatively blessed life because you are in the US. When one is NOT so blessed (a prospect Camus considers in some of the literary passages quotes, such as Hamlet’s soliloquy), then one may be given to ask entirely different questions (as we even see in the book of Job). I would submit that you and I (and most everyone else in a “western” nation) are more of a statistical anomaly than anything else. The plain fact is, I think, that outside of western countries, life has not improved much at all for most people in the world. Nations rise and fall. We can expect that ours will as well. Capitalism will die because it can only grow through expansion and cheap labor. We are all of us kings in a material sense and there has never been this much wealth accumulated in the hands of so many people in all of history. One question Jesus asks on his way to be crucified is that if men do such wicked things when the “tree is green”, what will they do when it is dry? Suffering and want increase wrongdoing because, as I have claimed, people are NOT essentially good. I suspect you think better of mankind. But if nothing else, the tremendous scale of carnage in the 20th century should convince anyone otherwise.
“FWIW, I think you have a rather limited and biased view of atheist thought and philosophy, and I think that your personal beliefs may cause you to prejudge us.”
FWIW, I think you (and any atheist who shares your view) has a rather rosy view of the world. I haven’t “steeped” myself in atheistic philosophy, but I have read Feuerbach, Marx, Engels, Nietzsche, Russell, Sartre, Camus and Ayer. I don;t see much optimism is many of these philosophers, except perhaps in Russell and Ayer.
Towncrier
October 9th, 2012
11:12 pm
BTW, JHM, to the extent you strive to do good I commend you. It is not a path I would take were I an atheist. I probably would have been dead by now.
Gary
October 10th, 2012
12:13 am
When will the Middle East rid itself of these cowards?