Paul Broun: Evolution, Big Bang theory ‘lies straight from pit of hell’
To the rest of the country, this may come as a bit of a surprise. To those of us in Georgia, not so much.
From the AP:
ATHENS, Ga. — Georgia Rep. Paul Broun said in videotaped remarks that evolution, embryology and the Big Bang theory are “lies straight from the pit of hell” meant to convince people that they do not need a savior.
The Republican lawmaker made those comments during a speech Sept. 27 at a sportsman’s banquet at Liberty Baptist Church in Hartwell. Broun, a medical doctor, is running for re-election in November unopposed by Democrats.
“God’s word is true,” Broun said, according to a video posted on the church’s website. “I’ve come to understand that. All that stuff I was taught about evolution and embryology and Big Bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell. And it’s lies to try to keep me and all the folks who are taught that from understanding that they need a savior.”
The quote comes at 34:50 in the video above, in which Broun first recounts his exploits as a big-game trophy hunter. Later, he witnesses for Christ and tells his own personal story of finding salvation at a moment of crisis. Personally, I think a more telling moment comes a little earlier, when he tells the audience that pastors of other, more mainstream Christian denominations “are going to send their people to hell” because in his opinion, they do not stress a personal relationship with their savior.
Broun, who is a physician by training, sits on the House Committee on Science, Space and Technology. I think it’s important to stress that the setting for his remarks is religious in character rather than political.
– Jay Bookman
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913 comments Add your comment
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
October 7th, 2012
2:55 pm
“Eternal truth, unfailing truth, truth that cannot be doubted, is not what science is for. [...] Scientists do not deal in final answers, guaranteed for all time. They deal in probabilities about the relationship of one observation to another.
[...]
Doing science means accepting that truths are temporary — the best we can do now, until more is learned. So when creationists say that evolution is just a theory, they’re missing the point. All scientific knowledge is ‘just theory,’ destined to be replace. Creation myths don’t belong in science class precisely because they’re supposed to be the final, unchanging truth about the universe, and science doesn’t deal in that sort of knowledge.”
From Us and Them: Understanding Your Tribal Mind by David Berreby
JamVet
October 7th, 2012
2:59 pm
Kam, a few days back you posted a link to some blog that is authored by TGT or Heyward.
Would you do so again?
TGT
October 7th, 2012
3:03 pm
AGAIN with the reference to bacteria and virus nonsense?!!! How many times do I have to debunk this?! These are NOT examples of D.E.!! Whether it is antibiotic-resistant bacteria or insecticide-resistant bugs, etc., the genetic information for these resistances was already present in some of the creatures. They then reproduce more resistant creatures, but this is not an example of one kind of creature changing to another.
Creationism does not claim to have an effect on operational science. It is an explanation of how life began. In other words, “the debate is about origin science and conflicting assumptions, or beliefs, about the past.”
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
October 7th, 2012
3:04 pm
Brother AmVet
http://www.trevorgrantthomas.com/
And for a family photo:
http://www.trevorgrantthomas.com/trevorbio.html
Dirty Dawg
October 7th, 2012
3:05 pm
The real question is whether or not this nut-job (the Bourn one), actually believes this nonsense or is he, like virtually all politicians – particularly Republican ones – just saying what they know their imbecilic constituency wants to hear and will vote for?
josef
October 7th, 2012
3:09 pm
JANET
@ 2:51
“I live in the state of Atlanta which is different from the State of Georgia. 1 1/2 hrs in any direction from Metro Atlanta and you are in bubbaville who elect people like this to represent them. Really scary. I wonder if he ever prescribes antibiotics?”
I live in Occupied Atlanta, too. You can’t prove they’re inferior until you can prove we’re superior, and you’re not off to a very good start, imeoiauo…
getalife
October 7th, 2012
3:09 pm
“(Reuters) – Britain will have to keep cutting public spending to reduce the budget deficit, Prime Minister David Cameron said on Sunday, underlining the government’s tough task of pulling the country out of recession while winning back waning public support.”
Their cons are making their recession worse and now the EU will have one budget so they are all cutting.
This will be us if the gop win,
Back to a deep recession then total collapse.
TGT
October 7th, 2012
3:13 pm
Kam thinks that is me. His ONLY evidence is that I posted Mr. Thomas’s clever “Barack’s Candy Mountains” song, and that my blog ID matches his initials. Speaking of Mr. Thomas, his latest column is out today: http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/10/islam_earns_its_scorn.html
Frederick Douglass
October 7th, 2012
3:13 pm
I wonder how far in kilometers are the Pits of hell from John McCain’s Gates of Hell?
getalife
October 7th, 2012
3:14 pm
tgt’s blog is rw garbage but his children are cute.
nelson
October 7th, 2012
3:14 pm
I sense an air of desperation, attacking this man of the gospel so viruently. Let us see if something can be done to calm our democratic bretheren. There is a feeling of despair now that the party in power is becoming “wilted flowers”.
There is a new time and place, where the Grand Old Republic assumes the mantle of leadership and a newfound prosperity. Keep your heads up democrats, you will be ok under the new dynamic leadership of the republicans. We will not forget you. We will pull you out of your depression and become whole again.
getalife
October 7th, 2012
3:19 pm
nelson,
Funny, when your grand ole party had power they destroyed our counytry so not sure why you want them to do it again.
Can you tell me why you want them to do it again?
Do you expect a different result because the gop have not changed?
Do tell genius.
Brosephus™
October 7th, 2012
3:24 pm
AGAIN with the reference to bacteria and virus nonsense?!!! How many times do I have to debunk this?! These are NOT examples of D.E.!!
So angry are we?? Might I suggest switching to decaf.
Creationism does not claim to have an effect on operational science.
Ya might wanna tell Rep. Broun that. Seems that he, and others like him, think operational science is one big lie. That he uses his belief in creationism in debunking operational science does lead one to believe that there are some who would believe otherwise.
It’s fun watching you blow your top though. Do it again, please???
JamVet
October 7th, 2012
3:50 pm
Thanks, brother Kam.
And TGT denies being this guy??????
The vast majority of the scientific community and academia supports evolutionary theory as the only explanation that can fully account for observations in the fields of biology, paleontology, molecular biology, genetics, anthropology, and other sciences.
One 1987 estimate found that “700 scientists … (out of a total of 480,000 U.S. earth and life scientists) … give credence to creation-science”.
An expert in the evolution-creationism controversy, professor and author Brian Alters, states that “99.9 percent of scientists accept evolution”.
Our Republican bloggers are smarter than 99.9% of the world’s experts.
Uncanny, huh?
getalife
October 7th, 2012
3:53 pm
tgt,
You got owned.
Doggone/GA
October 7th, 2012
3:56 pm
Bro – hope you’re still here. I wanted to address you on this from last night. You said something about the original Hebrew texts of the Bible. Problem is, there aren’t any. For one thing, Jesus almost certainly spoke Aramaic…the dominant language in his region of Israel. And the education men who actually wrote the letters now in the Bible as “books” would have written mostly in Greek or Latin, the written languages of their day.
There are no comtemporary books or letters that have been found. The best tests put the oldest of the books in the Bible at somewhere around 80-90 years after the death of Jesus. So what we are reading are the translations – some good, some not so good – of the memories of some people of what they were taught, but which were not written down until they were – at best, in their very old age.
But actually, it is far more likely that the books we have today were written by followers of the men to whom the books are attributed and are not actual “reports” of what happened in real time while Jesus was alive.
Brosephus™
October 7th, 2012
4:05 pm
Doggone
That’s only dealing with the New Testament. Stories from the Old Testament, such as the creation story, have been found to be similar to stories told in ancient societies as far back as the Sumerians.
I follow your point, and stand corrected as such, but the stories that make up the Bible likely come from everybody else but Jesus himself.
Towncrier
October 7th, 2012
4:24 pm
“You support Romney, right??? There’s your politician.”
Are you really this thick-headed, Brosephus, are you just being willfully argumentative? You need to sharpen your reading comprehension skills. I was speaking of a politician who supports the practice of wrongdoing for others in his platform – not instances of that politicians personal and occasional wrongdoing. In other words, I think Americans should be allowed to steal from others and would support legislation to that effect.
“Lying: His plan on cutting taxes 20% that’s now not really a tax cut.”
Let’s see what various “fact checkers” have said about Obama’s and YOUR claim:
THE CLAIM: Obama Said “Gov. Romney’s Central Economic Plan Calls For A $5 Trillion Tax Cut.” OBAMA: “Gov. Romney’s central economic plan calls for a $5 trillion tax cut – on top of the extension of the Bush tax cuts, that’s another trillion dollars – and $2 trillion in additional military spending that the military hasn’t asked for. That’s $8 trillion. How we pay for that, reduce the deficit, and make the investments that we need to make, without dumping those costs onto middle-class Americans, I think is one of the central questions of this campaign.” (President Barack Obama, Presidential Debate, Denver, CO, 10/3/12)
THE FACTS: Obama “Is Off Base Here.” “The president said Romney was proposing a $5 trillion tax cut and Romney said he wasn’t. The president is off base here – Romney says his rate cuts and tax eliminations would be offset and the deficit wouldn’t increase.” (Brooks Jackson, Eugene Kiely, Lori Robertson, Robert Farley, D’Angelo Gore and Ben Finley, “Dubios Denver Debate Declarations,” Factcheck.org, 10/4/12)
THE FACTS: “Romney Is Not Proposing A $5 Trillion Reduction In Taxes.” (Brooks Jackson, Eugene Kiely, Lori Robertson, Robert Farley, D’Angelo Gore and Ben Finley, “Dubios Denver Debate Declarations,” Factcheck.org, 10/4/12)
“ The Obama Campaign Has “Extrapolated” Figures To Come Up With $5 Trillion. “By themselves, those cuts would, according to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, lower federal tax liability by ‘about $480 billion in calendar year 2015′ compared with current tax policy, with Bush cuts left in place. The Obama campaign has extrapolated that figure out over 10 years, coming up with a $5 trillion figure over a decade.” (Brooks Jackson, Eugene Kiely, Lori Robertson, Robert Farley, D’Angelo Gore and Ben Finley, “Dubios Denver Debate Declarations,” Factcheck.org, 10/4/12)
THE FACTS: “Obama’s Claim That Romney Wants To Cut Taxes By $5 Trillion Doesn’t Add Up.” “Obama’s claim that Romney wants to cut taxes by $5 trillion doesn’t add up. Presumably, Obama was talking about the effect of Romney’s tax plan over 10 years, which is common in Washington. But Obama’s math doesn’t take into account Romney’s entire plan.” (Calvin Woodward, “FACT CHECK: Presidential Debate Missteps,” The Associated Press, 10/3/12)
Romney’s “Goal Is A Simpler Tax Code That Raises The Same Amount Of Money As The Current System But Does It In A More Efficient Manner.” “Romney proposes to reduce income tax rates by 20 percent and eliminate the estate tax and the alternative minimum tax. The Tax Policy Center, a Washington research group, says that would reduce federal tax revenues by $465 billion in 2015, which would add up to about $5 trillion over 10 years. However, Romney says he wants to pay for the tax cuts by reducing or eliminating tax credits, deductions and exemptions. The goal is a simpler tax code that raises the same amount of money as the current system but does it in a more efficient manner.” (Calvin Woodward, “FACT CHECK: Presidential Debate Missteps,” The Associated Press, 10/3/12)
THE FACTS: ABC’s Jon Karl: Obama’s Claim That Romney Has A $5 Trillion Tax Cut Plan Is “Mostly Fiction.” KARL: “Okay, so, the big thing there, and he came back to it several times, is Governor Romney has a $5 trillion tax cut plan. I rate that mostly fiction.” (ABC’s “Your Voice: 2012Presidential Debates,” 10/3/12)
So…calling someone a liar when they may not really be lying makes YOU a WHAT??? Secondly, how is his plan to cut taxes (even if you stubbornly insist – despite evidence to the contrary – that he himself is lying) an instance of Romney supporting the right of Americans to lie in legislation? Huh???
“Cheating: Although legal, how can one accumulate more than $1 million in an IRA? He’s used legal, but suspect, laws to shelter money for him and his kids. He claims to want to lead us to fiscal soundness, yet he’s purposefully hiding money that could have already been used towards that.”
A familiar Democratic meme: “Romney is a cheat because…well…I just know he is. Oh…it’s all legal…but he is still cheating – manipulating the tax code in unfair ways. I know many, many others do it as well (including liberals), but I don’t pitch a fit about them (or the problematic tax code that LEGALLY allows what I think is unfair)…because I like them”. But, I digress: even if, by some definition of the word, Romney is cheating – how is this an instance of him supporting the right of Americans to “cheat” in legislation? Huh???
“Murder: On May 27, 2012, Romney released the following statement about Syria…
After nearly a year and a half of slaughter, it is far past time for the United States to begin to lead and put an end to the Assad regime. President Obama can no longer ignore calls from congressional leaders in both parties to take more assertive steps. The Annan ‘peace’ plan—which President Obama still supports—has merely granted the Assad regime more time to execute its military onslaught. The United States should work with partners to organize and arm Syrian opposition groups so they can defend themselves.
I don’t think he wants to arm them simply for show and tell purposes or decorations, right?”
Geez…so I guess you think our nation’s founder were a bunch of murderers as well, that people should just passively endure oppression and being killed. Funny sentiment coming from a guy, who as I recall, has boasted of his ability and right to defend himself from physical harm. But, again, how is this an instance of Romney supporting the right of Americans to “murder” in legislation? Huh???
“I’ll give you a pass on the adultery, as he appears completely faithful to his wife.”
You’ll give ME a pass? Thanks, pal. Then I guess I won’t need to hammer home my refutation of your silly response on this point
“I’m willing to wager that you’ve voted for someone in the past who’s committed adultery though. Look at how many resigned after Clinton’s impeachment.”
Well..I guess not. For the last time how is this an instance of Romney supporting the right of Americans to commit adultery in legislation? HUH????
getalife
October 7th, 2012
4:28 pm
All mitt did was spew blatant lies and cut and run from previous postilions.
He lost huge on substance but corporate media thought he looked good being a loser.
Conventional wisdom is bs.
Ken D.
October 7th, 2012
4:29 pm
I wonder if he also thinks the earth is flat, and that if you go to far you’ll fall off the end of it, and that the sun revolves around the earth, and that the earth is the center of the universe? I mean, based on his other beliefs it would make about as much sense. I’m also guessing that anything contradicting those beliefs would be “lies from the pit of hell” as well.
getalife
October 7th, 2012
4:30 pm
Falcons win again.
Congrats Atlanta.
Brosephus™
October 7th, 2012
4:33 pm
I was speaking of a politician who supports the practice of wrongdoing for others in his platform – not instances of that politicians personal and occasional wrongdoing. In other words, I think Americans should be allowed to steal from others and would support legislation to that effect.
You did not state that, so I could only go by what you did STATE. I am not a mind reader. If you speak of something, then that usually means you actually state it and not THINK it and expect everybody to read your mind. You are not all that, regardless to how well you think of yourself.
As to Romney’s tax cut, if you lower tax rates, what is that called???? He has consistently stated he would lower tax rates 20%. Here in America, that IS A TAX CUT. The whole $5 Trillion stuff doesn’t amount to a dog turd floating down the Chattahoochee River. If you lower rates, that is a cut.
Romney, and others who follow the methods, cheat this country out of tax revenue. It’s legal because the very people who benefit from it paid for the best legislators their money could buy.
Geez…so I guess you think our nation’s founder were a bunch of murderers as well, that people should just passively endure oppression and being killed.
You’re right I think they were a bunch of murderers. That’s probably about the only thing you’ve ever guessed right about me. It doesn’t matter why, when, or for what purpose it’s done, killing someone is murder. Care to show where God, Jesus, Vishnu, Mohammed, Yahweh, or any other religious deity gives an exception based on why you kill somebody?
Anything else???
josef
October 7th, 2012
4:38 pm
Doggone, Brosephus
The Tanakh, that is the codification of the Hebrew scriptures, was conducted between c 450-100 CE. A lot of argument ensued about which were and which were not “official.” Christianity generally accepted the canon of the Rabbinical Council of Yavne in the first century of the common era. This conflict was not put to rest until Maimonides (Rambam) you might say, “closed the book” on the subject in the 1200s.
TaxPayer
October 7th, 2012
4:41 pm
It is an explanation of how life began.
Actually creationism is more of an absence of an explanation of how life began.
josef
October 7th, 2012
4:44 pm
KEN D
Lemme see. The universe is infinite, right? And, if so, then that infinity is equidistant from where we are, which in my case is Buckhead, Atlanta, Georgia, USA, North America, Western Hemisphere, Planet Earth…therefore I am the Buckhead is, as we already know, the center of the universe.
BTW
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
Brosephus™
October 7th, 2012
4:44 pm
josef
Ok.
josef
October 7th, 2012
4:46 pm
TAX PAYER
“Actually creationism is more of an absence of an explanation of how life began.”
True. As is science. Therefore, I see no conflict between the poetic and the scientific.
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
October 7th, 2012
4:51 pm
GETALIFE,
Did you see Fact Check about the various 4 Pinocchios that Obama has earned? Romney likely has more but lying is an equal opportunity tactic….
Taxpayer,
I humanist terms, creationism is known as the “clockmaker” argument…this suggests that the outcome our existence is akin to clock making…ie the interworkings of a clock is so complicated that there must be a intelligence (clockmaker) designer…All the arguments against creationism and others against the Christian belief system can best be found in Bertrand Russells “Why I An Not a Christian” written almost a century ago…There is a Head of Humanist Studies at Harvard named Greg Epstein…his book “Good Without God” is the best, non-judgemental writing about beliefs on both sides…
hiram
October 7th, 2012
4:51 pm
td/town… is off of his meds again.
Towncrier
October 7th, 2012
4:51 pm
“You said something about the original Hebrew texts of the Bible. Problem is, there aren’t any.”
There are no “original” copies of ANY ancient document written on a perishable material like papyrus. There are PLENTY of copies of the original, however.
“For one thing, Jesus almost certainly spoke Aramaic…the dominant language in his region of Israel.”
Well, I think that can be fairly inferred from the Gospels themselves. But he also clearly spoke Hebrew and possibly Greek as well.
“And the education [sic] men who actually wrote the letters now in the Bible as “books” would have written mostly in Greek or Latin, the written languages of their day.”
The New Testament is written in Koine Greek. The Old testament in Hebrew.
“There are no comtemporary books or letters that have been found.”
Nor is it likely any will be found. They will have perished.
“The best tests put the oldest of the books in the Bible at somewhere around 80-90 years after the death of Jesus.”
The oldest manuscripts of the NT are fragments, not entire books.
“So what we are reading are the translations – some good, some not so good – of the memories of some people of what they were taught, but which were not written down until they were – at best, in their very old age.”
It is NOT the case that the books in the NT were written by their authors “in their very old age”. John is perhaps the only one of which that may be said.
“But actually, it is far more likely that the books we have today were written by followers of the men to whom the books are attributed and are not actual “reports” of what happened in real time while Jesus was alive.”
A completely unsubstantiated and confused assertion. For one thing, you seem not aware of the distinction between the historical books of the NT and its letters. For another, you are showing your ignorance of the books themselves (many of which are written in the first person). The only thing that is correct in what you have said is that none of the historical events were recorded, as you say, “in real time”.
josef
October 7th, 2012
4:56 pm
Recommended reading…
George Bernard Shaw’s “The Adventures of the Black Girl in Her Search for God (and Some Lesser Tales)”
TaxPayer
October 7th, 2012
4:56 pm
As is science.
Science is “the systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.” Creationism fails to satisfy this definition.
getalife
October 7th, 2012
4:56 pm
The universe is infinite so we are a microscopic tiny existence in the universe and only explored what is closest to us. We have no idea what is out there but beginning to see it with high powered telescopes.
How did it originate? I don’t care.
How do we maintain our tiny existence in this vast universe is the most important question.
Brosephus™
October 7th, 2012
4:58 pm
Stevie Ray: Did you see Fact Check about the various 4 Pinocchios that Obama has earned? Romney likely has more but lying is an equal opportunity tactic….
Generally, when a politician’s lips are moving, they are probably lying 75% of the time. They do it because they know the public really doesn’t care about being lied to. We actually encourage it when we reward that behavior by electing them to office based on the lies they tell to get the job.
TaxPayer
October 7th, 2012
5:00 pm
Creationism simply requires an imagination. An explanation of our origin via science requires a basis in the physical world.
josef
October 7th, 2012
5:03 pm
TAXI
The point was “an explanation of…” Science offers no finality (i.e. truth) there than does the theological. As Ole Mo told us, both are a continuing search for those explanations…it’s when either takes on the mantle of having established the truth of whatever matter for all time that we fall into a dark age…the process of both is an evolutionary thing…
Team_America
October 7th, 2012
5:03 pm
look at where he graduated from college ( hint it’s in Athens), people like this is why uga has the stereotype of being a bunch dumb rednecks
Towncrier
October 7th, 2012
5:03 pm
“It doesn’t matter why, when, or for what purpose it’s done, killing someone is murder.”
You are wrong. Murder is killing someone without just cause.
“Care to show where God, Jesus, Vishnu, Mohammed, Yahweh, or any other religious deity gives an exception based on why you kill somebody?”
I cannot speak to Vishnu or Mohammed (who wasn’t a deity but a prophet), but it is clear from the OT that the God of the Bible does command, for instance, the stoning (capital punishment) of certain individuals for certain acts. But you should have known that.
Doggone/GA
October 7th, 2012
5:04 pm
“I follow your point, and stand corrected as such, but the stories that make up the Bible likely come from everybody else but Jesus himself”
Not likely…do. We have no writings from Jesus himself, who was most likely illiterage. EVERYthing we have about him comes from someone else, and is filtered through their beliefs and memories and the things they were taught, which were likewise filtered.
The trick is to try to tease out what conflicts with the teachings we think are closest to what Jesus actually said and taught.
Doggone/GA
October 7th, 2012
5:06 pm
“Christianity generally accepted the canon of the Rabbinical Council of Yavne in the first century of the common era.”
Josef – very interesting, but I’m not concerned with the Old Testament…which I consider to be interesting history, but not religion related to the teachings of Jesus.
Jm - HNS
October 7th, 2012
5:06 pm
Getalife
Did you see the news about the comet next year?
Will be very very cool
TaxPayer
October 7th, 2012
5:09 pm
The point was “an explanation of…” Science offers no finality (i.e. truth) there than does the theological.
josef,
Science is not required to provide finality although it may provide a very high level of certainty depending on the knowledge base supporting any particular endeavor (such as the outcome of a coin toss, for example). It must simply provide plausibility through the realm of the physical, the observed and measurable, etc. Faith, on the other hand, in something such as the notion of creationism requires nothing more than imagination and acceptance of said imagination as proof.
Brosephus™
October 7th, 2012
5:11 pm
but it is clear from the OT that the God of the Bible does command, for instance, the stoning (capital punishment) of certain individuals for certain acts. But you should have known that.
And I also know that one of the Ten Commandments that came from God by messenger also stated “Thou shall not kill.” I don’t recall any asterisk in that statement or any small print that gave exceptions. Therein lies one of the conflicts that is the Bible. That kind of happens when you have many different people trying to tell the same story from different perspectives and time periods.
————————-
Doggone: The trick is to try to tease out what conflicts with the teachings we think are closest to what Jesus actually said and taught.
So very true.
Towncrier
October 7th, 2012
5:19 pm
“Not likely…do. We have no writings from Jesus himself, who was most likely illiterage [sic]. EVERYthing we have about him comes from someone else, and is filtered through their beliefs and memories and the things they were taught, which were likewise filtered.”
And you know that HOW? If Jesus was “illiterate”, than the gospels contain patently false information (since Jesus is recorded as having read from the OT on more than one occasion). I am curious: are you just making this stuff up or did you read it somewhere and believe it?
“The trick is to try to tease out what conflicts with the teachings we think are closest to what Jesus actually said and taught.”
No, the “trick” is to actually read the NT for yourself and decide whether it is true of not. Then based on that decision, either pursue knowing the father God and Jesus it speaks of or throw it away as one of the most deceitful pieces of literature ever foisted upon mankind.
josef
October 7th, 2012
5:24 pm
TAXI
But, remember, as Rambam said, it is FROM that imagination that scientific inquiry springs…science is what is perceptive to observation using the five corporal senses. Faith, religion, spirituality or whatever term we choose to use is that which we rely on to perceive “the other.” The two are supposed to operate in tandem, not in conflict.
Neither is supposed to provide finality. For each “answer” either may offer, there are a thousand more questions to be asked…
Doggone
Most likely Jesus was schooled in the Hasmonean Tanakh…and “but not religion related to the teachings of Jesus.” The teachings of Jesus were foundationed in the rabbinical, in terms of the historical. He did not exist in a cultural vacuum…
getalife
October 7th, 2012
5:27 pm
jm,
Yes, they want to drill on asteroids.
I think they should be drilling on Mars to find a new cleaner energy source.
josef
October 7th, 2012
5:31 pm
The Hebrew text uses the phrase lo tirsha…thou shalt not murder…to kill without just cause…also the commandment is not to bear false witness, not not to lie…these are the legalistic commandments and relate to our relations with fellow man, not our obligations to G-d…
TaxPayer
October 7th, 2012
5:32 pm
josef,
I have no qualms with what springs forth FROM said imagination, only with what moves forward into the realm of science as opposed to what remains confined within the mind. Now, if someone were to produce two stone tablets with some ancient text inscribed on them and said tablets could be dated using an acceptable methodology… who knows… there could be the beginnings of a physical basis for belief in an almighty. Anything’s possible. I just require evidence to support any claims.
josef
October 7th, 2012
5:34 pm
Jesus was almost certainly literate in Hebrew as were virtually all Jewish males of his time and place…otherwise how, at 12, could he have impressed the rabbis with his knowledge. Having had one of their descendants as my Granddaddy, I can assure you they went “by the letter!”
Brosephus™
October 7th, 2012
5:34 pm
The Hebrew text uses the phrase lo tirsha…thou shalt not murder…to kill without just cause
And to play devil’s advocate, how many use the old Hebrew text nowadays? or can even read ancient Hebrew in order to translate it from the original form?
TaxPayer
October 7th, 2012
5:35 pm
Neither is supposed to provide finality.
Amen to that. Now if only you had some sway with some of the more devout and fervent amongst us.
Towncrier
October 7th, 2012
5:37 pm
“And I also know that one of the Ten Commandments that came from God by messenger also stated “Thou shall not kill.” I don’t recall any asterisk in that statement or any small print that gave exceptions.”
Is the reason you made mention of the KJV yesterday because that is what you read? Most of the best modern translations (NIV, ESB, NKJV and NASB) translate Exodus 20:13 as “You shall not murder” (not kill, as the KJV did for many years). Why is that? The Hebrew word (ratsach) translated as “kill” or “murder” can and is (almost like all words in the Bible) translated according to context. You should investigate this matter on your own.
“Therein lies one of the conflicts that is the Bible.”
Ah…now I see the root cause of your difficulty. You appear to think there are actual, rather than seeming, contradictions in the Bible. Why you would subscribe to a belief in a book that purports to tell the truth (and be so inerrant that Jesus himself is recorded as saying things like “the scriptures cannot be broken” and “not one iota of the law shall pass away until it has been fulfilled”) when it is chock full of contradictions, is beyond me. Throw the thing out if it is not completely reliable – otherwise you are to some extent creating your own religion and God (as is everyone else).
“That kind of happens when you have many different people trying to tell the same story from different perspectives and time periods.”
I think this sentiment follows naturally from the belief that the Bible is full of errors.
josef
October 7th, 2012
5:37 pm
TAXI
This is said with respect, so please accept it as such, but you want a simple explanation. There isn’t one. There’s nothing wrong with that, mind you, it IS what leads to the scientific inquiry and is valuable as such. Not everybody thinks or feels that way and are less taken by the “how” as by the “why.”
It is the age old conflict between the secular and the clerical “authorities” for control of the Joe Shmo..
pogo
October 7th, 2012
5:41 pm
Venezuela appears ready to vote its socialist leader out while Jay and his liberal government dependent toadies here want to re-elect Obama. Obama’s policies and his level of socialist deficit spending makes Chavez look like a Capitalist pig. Seems everyone else in the world is turning against the socialist model but Left in America continue to want to march down that path. Idiots. American democrats/liberals can be divided into two groups; either they are so rich that they don’t care what our government does (entertainers, politicians, journalists) because they are protected from its policies by the sheer amount of money they posess or they are so lazy that they want the government to do everything for them and to provide for them (i.e, the entitlement class who spend government money on lottery tickets and booze).
josef
October 7th, 2012
5:44 pm
TAXI
“Now if only you had some sway with some of the more devout and fervent amongst us.”
Amen to that! That’s why I began my comments today with “Maimonides is rolling over in his grave…again!”
BROSEPHUS AKA AVOCATUS DIABOLI
Well, a lot of Jews can! Specially them Israeli ones…
In all seriousness, though, this is always brought to question in the investigations of collateral deaths in an Israeli strike…did it “kill” by accident in fighting back, or was it vengeful murder?
TaxPayer
October 7th, 2012
5:44 pm
This is said with respect, so please accept it as such, but you want a simple explanation. There isn’t one. There’s nothing wrong with that, mind you, it IS what leads to the scientific inquiry and is valuable as such. Not everybody thinks or feels that way and are less taken by the “how” as by the “why.”
And no disrespect back at you, josef, but I believe it is you that seek and accept the simple answer by way of faith in an almighty. Of course, there nothing wrong with that approach either, mind you…
Doggone/GA
October 7th, 2012
5:45 pm
“Most likely Jesus was schooled in the Hasmonean Tanakh…and “but not religion related to the teachings of Jesus.” The teachings of Jesus were foundationed in the rabbinical, in terms of the historical. He did not exist in a cultural vacuum”
More like probably…but the remembered teachings left to us by his followers contain little to none of that, and in some cases flatly contradict it…as in the vision told to a Saint to “eat what is placed before you” There are no dietary restrictions in that statement.
Doggone/GA
October 7th, 2012
5:48 pm
“otherwise how, at 12, could he have impressed the rabbis with his knowledge”
Assuming that he did. Do you believe that Washington threw a silver dollar across the Potomac River? You can’t discount literary exageration, or outright invention, when trying to impress your point of view on others. Doesn’t the subject of this blog teach you that?
barking frog
October 7th, 2012
5:52 pm
All religions require
instruction and obedience,
those with written codes
require obedience to those
codes. Bibles are the codes
of Christian religions. If
you become a member of
a denomination you must
use that version of the
Bible to prevent confusion.
Oscar
October 7th, 2012
5:53 pm
did it “kill” by accident in fighting back, or was it vengeful murder?
________
We seem to be having the same question in our strikes in Afgan and Pakistan. Somehow, they seem to be taking it as murder of innocent civilians.
josef
October 7th, 2012
5:54 pm
CRIER
Ratzah is to kill in a wider range of meanings…slay, break, lay to whale sh*t, or what have you…
Refugee
October 7th, 2012
5:56 pm
Enter your comments here
Oscar
October 7th, 2012
5:56 pm
josef
October 7th, 2012
5:31 pm
________
The stories in the Old Testament are full of wise Hebrews lying to outfox the Egyptians and other non-Jews.
And killing was nothing to be shy about, except for the unjust killing of a fellow Hebrew.
All things have to be taken in the context of their times.
Towncrier
October 7th, 2012
5:57 pm
“More like probably…but the remembered teachings left to us by his followers contain little to none of that, and in some cases flatly contradict it…”
You are completely missing the very valid point josef was making. In Jesus’s time, virtually every young male learned to read and memorize the scriptures. Those that were really, really good at it wound up being “disciples” of rabbis at some point. All the others went on to some other occupation in life.
“…as in the vision told to a Saint to “eat what is placed before you” There are no dietary restrictions in that statement.”
You don’t understand the context of the vision Peter received. Peter was about to go and preach the gospel to a gentile, Cornelius. Jews did not enter the homes of gentiles and generally did not interact with them. God was trying to impress upon Peter that the old order of things had passed away, that the death of Jesus represented a new covenant. God also signaled this to Peter by “baptizing” Cornelius with the Holy Spirit as He had done with the Jewish disciples at Pentacost – even before Cornelius had repented and been baptized.
TaxPayer
October 7th, 2012
5:57 pm
Isn’t it great to live in a country where our different beliefs are still accepted, in spite of some people’s ongoing efforts to change that. Separation of Church and State was a good move on the part of our founding fathers.
Towncrier
October 7th, 2012
6:00 pm
“Ratzah is to kill in a wider range of meanings…slay, break, lay to whale sh*t, or what have you…”
AFAIK, it is the very word used in Exodus 20:13 of the Hebrew copies of the OT used by translators of the Bible:
http://concordances.org/hebrew/7523.htm
Do Jews use a different text?
Oscar
October 7th, 2012
6:00 pm
Isn’t it great to live in a country where our different beliefs are still accepted
______________
Different beliefs are accepted as long as they lie within the broad range of thought that is considered normal. Outside of that they are not accepted – honor killings, drinking poison, withholding medicial care from children are not accepted.
josef
October 7th, 2012
6:03 pm
CRIER
I would agree with you on the faith and the search for the simplistic. Much as with science, the problem comes when we accept the simplistic without delving further into it…
Bear in mind, though, that I don’t accept AN Alm*ghty, but THE Alm*ghty!
And an interesting sidelight as far as this is concerned since I’m off on the Maimonidean today, but Mo said that we are to define G-d by what H- is NOT…thus, subject to rational inquiry…
DOGGONE
Again, it’s your doctrine, not mine, but speaking as Jew, IF we accept the story of the Christ as a boy-becoming-man, then we must accept literacy. Otherwise he could not have made the transition as per the tradition-religion.
FROG
There’s religion and there’s dogma…
OSCAR
There is one of the distinctions between the Islamic and the Christian, the Islamic and the Judaic…
Towncrier
October 7th, 2012
6:04 pm
“Assuming that he did. Do you believe that Washington threw a silver dollar across the Potomac River? You can’t discount literary exageration, or outright invention, when trying to impress your point of view on others. Doesn’t the subject of this blog teach you that?”
Assuming you know what you are talking about.
JamVet
October 7th, 2012
6:04 pm
An interesting breakdown of the Religious Differences on the Question of Evolution in the United States.
Percent 3who believe int he validity of the theory of evolution:
Buddhist 81%
Hindu 80%
Jewish 77%
Unaffiliated 72%
Catholic 58%
Orthodox 54%
Mainline Protestant 51%
Muslim 45%
Hist. Black Protest. 38%
Evang. Protestant 24%
Mormon 22%
Jehovah’s Witnesses 8%
josef
October 7th, 2012
6:05 pm
CRIER
“Do Jews use a different text?”
No, Christians do!
Oscar
October 7th, 2012
6:07 pm
No, Christians do!
_______
Very good answer.
Oscar
October 7th, 2012
6:10 pm
I like the story of Abraham passing his wife off as his sister to the King to save his skin.
“. . . and things went very well for him.”
He did draw the line when the king wanted to marry her. Time to ‘fess up.
barking frog
October 7th, 2012
6:11 pm
josef
All religions have dogma,
all dogma is not religious.
Towncrier
October 7th, 2012
6:13 pm
“I would agree with you on the faith and the search for the simplistic. Much as with science, the problem comes when we accept the simplistic without delving further into it…”
Well, I think what is missing in a lot of faith is…a lot of reason. I don’t know how it is growing up in the Jewish faith, but most people in the Christian faith grow up attending church and (while reading the Bible a little from time to time) simply and unthinkingly believing what their pastor tells them (whatever that may be) in his messages. It is an entirely different matter to, as an adult, read the entire Bible (especially the New Testament) to see 1) what it actually says 2) if it makes sense and is believable 3) how seeming contradictions are resolved and 4) decide whether or not you really want to make it a standard for your life.
Oscar
October 7th, 2012
6:16 pm
We also draw the line at denying coverage for abortions in health care insurance for employees. And denying marriage rights to homosexuals.
Some religious beliefs are just not acceptable.
A TAT
October 7th, 2012
6:18 pm
Read it and rejoice….or weep….whichever you choose.
We all remember what we learned in fourth grade: While scientists were bravely trying to uncover truths about the universe and improve our quality of life, stupid churchmen who hated reason and simply wanted the faithful to shut up and obey placed a ceaseless stream of obstacles in their path.
That was where the conventional wisdom stood just over a century ago, with the publication of Andrew Dickson White’s book, “A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom,” in 1896. And that’s where most Americans (and Europeans, for that matter) believe it still stands.
Until Thomas E. Wood, Jr., PhD wrote “How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization”.
These were the great opponents of human progress?
It’s what the LEFT would have us believe.
Unfortunately for THEM, it’s not true.
The first person to measure the rate of acceleration of a freely falling body was Father Giambattista Riccioli. The man who has been called the father of Egyptology was Father Athanasius Kircher. Father Roger Boscovich, who has been described as “the greatest genius that Yugoslavia ever produced,” has often been called the father of modern atomic theory. In the sciences it was the Jesuits in particular who distinguished themselves; some 35 craters on the moon, in fact, are named after Jesuit scientists and mathematicians.
Be sure and read the ENTIRE article. It’s a long list of the Church’s contributions to science…
OR…you can choose to remain in the dark.
s-c-h-n-i-r-t
Towncrier
October 7th, 2012
6:21 pm
“No, Christians do!”
LOL. So you are saying that in the Hebrew text Jews use, “lo tirsha” is used in the “verse” corresponding to Exodus 20:13 in the “gentile” Hebrew text?
Oscar
October 7th, 2012
6:21 pm
Was Thomas Edison a catholic?
josef
October 7th, 2012
6:23 pm
CRIER
It depends on the tradition of the home…for some, the day is spent studying the scriptures and exploring and discussing the millenia of interpretations of specific passages. For others, it’s a ticket for Yom Kippur and that’s for the ones who call themselves religious (in which camp I was raised). For secular Jews, it’s less a matter of theology than it is cultural identity…
That’s why the Hebes here on the blog get such a kick out of “real Jew.” Not that we Chosen don’t do it, too, only we use the term “Good Jew.” For us, a Good Jew can be a “non believer” and the most pious and by the letter might not be considered a “Good Jew.”
Towncrier
October 7th, 2012
6:23 pm
“Some religious beliefs are just not acceptable.”
Some non-religious beliefs are just not acceptable. It is a democracy. We’ll see how it pans out.
JamVet
October 7th, 2012
6:28 pm
boobs,
Anything in the last three hundred years on that list?
Towncrier
October 7th, 2012
6:29 pm
“That’s why the Hebes here on the blog get such a kick out of “real Jew.”
LOL.
“Not that we Chosen don’t do it, too, only we use the term “Good Jew.”
No….tell me it isn’t so
“For us, a Good Jew can be a “non believer” and the most pious and by the letter might not be considered a “Good Jew.”
Medved says essentially the same thing, but claims that the one kind of Jew that is beyond the pale is a “Christian” Jew. Would you agree with that?
Jm - HNS
October 7th, 2012
6:33 pm
Big crowd turnout for Romney in S FL
Doggone/GA
October 7th, 2012
6:37 pm
“Again, it’s your doctrine, not mine, but speaking as Jew, IF we accept the story of the Christ as a boy-becoming-man, then we must accept literacy. Otherwise he could not have made the transition as per the tradition-religion”
and it’s really beside the point, as he left us no known writing and no stories that he ever wrote anything down.
josef
October 7th, 2012
6:45 pm
CRIER
Jokes aside, the transition in the use of the two verbs reflects the transition of the sixth from a legal to a moral concept within the evolution of the Jewish culture, that is the use of ratzah, the more general, from the strictly legalese.
Oscar
October 7th, 2012
6:45 pm
Big Bird was on Saturday Nite Live.
Save Big Bird!!!
deegee
October 7th, 2012
6:47 pm
This puts it all in perspective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGrlWOhtj3g
Towncrier
October 7th, 2012
6:48 pm
“Jokes aside, the transition in the use of the two verbs reflects the transition of the sixth from a legal to a moral concept within the evolution of the Jewish culture, that is the use of ratzah, the more general, from the strictly legalese.”
Well I guess that makes the argument I was making to Brosephus even stronger, since then context doesn’t determine the translation.
Brosephus™
October 7th, 2012
6:59 pm
Is the reason you made mention of the KJV yesterday because that is what you read?
From the time I learned to read, I have used the KJV. If something works fine, why change?
————————-
Why you would subscribe to a belief in a book that purports to tell the truth (and be so inerrant that Jesus himself is recorded as saying things like “the scriptures cannot be broken” and “not one iota of the law shall pass away until it has been fulfilled”) when it is chock full of contradictions, is beyond me.
That’s why it’s called B-E-L-I-E-F. Contrary to your opinion, you do not KNOW everything. That you believe with all your being does not mean that people that don’t believe exactly as you do are wrong. That’s why my beliefs are beyond you. In your world, things are cut-and-dry, black-and-white. That is not how my world functions, and my world functions perfectly for me, so I won’t change it just because somebody else thinks they know better for me.
I believe there is only one perfect person, God. All others can and will make mistakes. God did not write the Bible, man did. Man is not infalliable, so I have no problem with contradictions I see in the Bible.
One last thing, I am no more creating my own religion than you are yourself. Unless you are the 2nd coming, you are not the all knowledgable one, regardless to what you think you should know.
sheepdawg
October 7th, 2012
7:02 pm
sad, what an idiot. are the voters in his district this far out of touch with reality?
josef
October 7th, 2012
7:03 pm
TOWNCRIER
“Medved says essentially the same thing, but claims that the one kind of Jew that is beyond the pale is a “Christian” Jew. Would you agree with that?”
First. you’ve got to remember that I’m Sephardic and my approach to this is highly affected by that. We are a lot less cold-blooded given our history. We have two terms, marrano or more politely anuzim to refer to one class of “Christian” Jews whom we consider “Good Jews.” These are those who were forced to convert or be killed during the Inquisition in Spain, but who held onto their Jewishness in secret. Then there or those who convert for other reasons. Are they Jews? I try not to judge that, but I admit to a great deal of antipathy toward them at a certain level. Then there are those Christians not of Jewish ancestry who seek to incorporate the Jewish into their own faith and theology. My jury is out there. Are they MOTs, no, not really in my opinion. On the other hand, some of them may be “better Jews” in practice than many a Levy or Cohen…
getalife
October 7th, 2012
7:04 pm
Not a big fan of organized religion and was raised Catholic..
Probably why I did not see the light because I believe when you die, it is just a deep sleep and nothing happens.
That was my experience but I think believing in religion makes you act right and we don’t return to the dark ages, believe all you want.
It is a free country and we tolerate all religions and beliefs.
Flat Earther
October 7th, 2012
7:05 pm
Evolution is dumb. Real dumb.
Flat Earther
October 7th, 2012
7:06 pm
Dinosaurs are a propaganda tool of the devil scientists.
Flat Earther
October 7th, 2012
7:07 pm
Big bang. No such thang.
Oscar
October 7th, 2012
7:07 pm
Evolution is dumb. Real dumb.
______
Some people think that a lot of the results of evolution are dumb. Real dumb.
Brosephus™
October 7th, 2012
7:08 pm
It is a free country and we tolerate all religions and beliefs.
Most all religions and beliefs.
Flat Earther
October 7th, 2012
7:08 pm
Babies come from storks.
getalife
October 7th, 2012
7:09 pm
Do you believe oil came from dead dinasours?