Poll reveals deep doubts about economic fairness

THEYBOTHSUCK

I agree to a point but without him, I think those in favor of democracy would feel more empowered to rise up…

It would cause quite a stir…probably less offensive that negative comments about that cat Muhammed…

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Doggone/GA

Obviously institutions do get involved in politics, otherwise we wouldn’t have a thread about the
Public Religion Research Institute polling in an electoral political race.

From the Public Religion Research Institute website: Public Religion Research Institute was founded to provide high quality public opinion survey research focused on religion, values, and American public policy. Since our founding in 2009, PRRI research has become a standard source of trusted information among journalists, opinion leaders, scholars, clergy, and the general public.

It is a brand new institution with a mission statement to disseminate polling data on religion. I am disturbed by this, because I believe spirituality should not be institutionalized in relation to electoral politics.

People will and do go to the voting booths with their spirituality in the forefront of their thoughts and I have absolutely no problem with that, but to me spirituality is an individual thing, and “religion” is a political subjugation of that spirituality into a group thing

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Marty Huggins’ ……. I don’t claim to know about the big bang, or the man made Gods folks die for daily……

My thoughts are religious institutions should not get tax free benefits for made up stuff….. cause there are how many Gods ? And which one is correct ?

Plus using religion in politics as both parties do is ridicules.

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“That said, I think you need to focus a little more on what I’m trying to get across. I don’t lionize Romney’s charitable donations primarily because a significant portion of them were *obligatory.*”

Some amount of giving to support a church is “obligatory” (as you call it) in just about any “version” of “Christianity” you will encounter – because it is a Biblical mandate. But giving 10% is an Old and not New Testament command and, strictly speaking, applies no more to Christians than does the mandate to sacrifice animals for the atonement of sin. In addition, giving not to a church per se but to needy individuals is a form of giving to God (”He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD…” – Proverbs 19:17). So I would agree with you to the extent that if all one’s charitable gifts are to a church per se, then there is something wrong with that picture.

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Just put your trust in Obama while he’s smiling and handing you that big old crap sandwich.

You mean the Trillions we were handed by the Republican’s with deficits don’t matter ? The Iraq war and Mission Accomplished…… talk about CRAP !

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You liberals have your opinions and we conservatives have ours. Guess it will take a civil war to settle our differences.

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BRO,

Back on voter suppression for a sec…when folks refer to a lack of voter fraud…if no id is required in the past so for example, we have no idea if one is of voting age, would we know that?

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Kam

IMO it is just a way to hide behind a veil but still push the same type agenda as did organizations like the Moral Majority.

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THEYBOTH,

I’m not so sure..I know it is a religious state (ironically much like Israel), but they have a very educated population who have been intimidated whenever speaking out…could be tipping point…heck, lets kill him and see..

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Don Abernethy

September 24th, 2012
5:54 pm

You liberals have your opinions and we conservatives have ours. Guess it will take a civil war to settle our differences.
+++++++++++++++++++++++

Not from the Liberal perspective, but they are willing to talk and negotiate. As to you Rush Limbaugh asshats? That’s a different story……….

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if no id is required in the past so for example, we have no idea if one is of voting age, would we know that?

As long as the registration process checks out, then that should be addressed long before the first ballot is cast. I recall having to show ID when I registered, and I’ve always volunteered a photo ID whenever I voted, whether it was required by law or not. That’s just me though. I don’t know if it was the same for everyone else.

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M. Huggins — “I left the LDS “church” and became Episcopalian with my wife. I can say the experience you are describing is not accurate in all cases.”

I’m genuinely pleased to hear that.

“Maybe was with your wife and her family but not my experience. I had no problems of any kind what so ever.”

Did you find it necessary to attend multiple meetings with your stake president and with other members of church leadership before they finally consented to permit you to leave? Please elaborate on your experience; I would genuinely like to know.

“You are speaking as if your wife story is universal and that is simply untrue. It’s fine to discuss your wife story, but to attribute that to ALL involved is misleading and wrong.”

If you have another perspective to offer, then by all means do so. If, however, you’re simply being made uncomfortable by what I’m relating, too bad.

“If their story is your only source it would benefit you to research things a little better”

If you have sources to recommend, I’m all ears. If however, your criticism is merely that your story differs from my wife’s story (and her family’s story), then perhaps you need to research things a little better as well.

“and spend less time pontificating.”

Physician, heal thyself.

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BRO,

Regarding NFL refs..you bring up an interesting topic..seems to me that the game is simply too fast for them at present..I’m wondering if this goes on much longer, if they will adjust at some point….making the adjustment from div 2 or whatever, will take time but probably not as long as one thinks…the bigger issue is simply controlling games and calling out coaches when they attempt to intimidate….

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“Atoms don’t exist.”

Just as I suspected. How about water molecules?

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Brosephus™

September 24th, 2012
4:11 pm
Being master of the obvious, i submit to you that blacks aren’t acually black anymore than whites are actually white..

You should get out a bit more. There are some Blacks who are considered “Blue-Black” or dark Black. There are some whites who are so pale that they resemble the color of milk. Trust me, I’ve seen them both and all shades in between.
_________________________________
Stevie Ray, ever heard of the term “Blurple”

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Afternoon, Joe Hussein Mama

I’ve read your exchanges with Towncrier. FIrst off, I’ll say no matter what ‘official’ policy may be, any time one’s dealing with a worldwide church, without a professional local clergy, in fact, a part-time lay clergy, almost anything can happen. I’d also observe that just because something unfortunate happened decades ago does not mean that practice was proper nor does it mean it’s something one can reasonably expect today.

I also recognize the personal nature of this as it occurred within your family.

Having said that, it did pique my interest and from what I read from a variety of LDS, nonLDS and anti-LDS sites, as well as asking a couple of friends, I’ll offer the following:

– none of the people I spoke with accepted what happened to your father-in-law was proper. In fact, one offered the local officials should have been counseled by higher authorities.

- tithing’s considered a personal matter. How to calculate the amount is left strictly to the individual. Some do gross, some do net, some do whatever. I was told by a person in a current position of authority (and I trust you don’t take this as heresay, just relating results of my information gathering back to when you first brought this up) that they are specifically told to NOT question people who apply for temple recommends how they did the calculation. The only question is “are you a full tithe payer.” End of discussion. That interview, requested by the individual, is the only time that question is asked. Regardless of what happened years ago, that’s current policy.

- people aren’t audited. The closest one might construe it is if a person wants to donate property (stocks, land, etc) in lieu of cash. Then there are valuations that have to be done – more by the donor for tax purposes. I do not know what controls kick in if there are conditions on the donation, such as when stocks can be sold (as I read on an LDS website is standard practice for all donations of stock).

– people who do not want to be members can have their names removed. The process falls under the umbrella of ‘excommunication’ and is not pejorative. It’s just the system they’ve set up to handle all such membership removal matters. I can understand why local leaders would want to make contact. Can you imagine if one person was upset with a nonpracticing LDS and forged a letter saying “get my name off your rolls”? I don’t see a problem with verification.

But again, what happened to your wife’s family seems more due to a local guy who was full of himself rather than following policy. And even if the case is made there was such a policy, it no longer exists. Same kinds of things happen with all large organizations. Look at the VA – follows a policy denying benefits for a certain class, later reverses and does away with the policy. Doesn’t mean 30 years later the VA should be judged by the previous policy.

Just my two cents’ worth.

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BMAN,

Seems to me that one side sez…every voter should be able to evidence proof they are of age and citizenship to vote..the other sez nonsense, we don’t need no stinking ID’s…

Seems if the latter became true in all states, this is simply fodder for underage, multiple votes, and general fraud to expand..

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“Blurple”

I think I just scared my neighbor’s dogs from laughing so hard!!!

I haven’t heard that one in a while…

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Towncrier — “But giving 10% is an Old and not New Testament command and, strictly speaking, applies no more to Christians than does the mandate to sacrifice animals for the atonement of sin.”

FWIW, it’s made clear during the LDS Endowment process/ceremony that tithing is an *obligation* on the order of several other key covenants.

“So I would agree with you to the extent that if all one’s charitable gifts are to a church per se, then there is something wrong with that picture.”

FWIW, I don’t begrudge people the right to make whatever donations they please to their churches. I simply have an issue with calling *obligatory* tithes “charity,” as several of our posters were earlier today.

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BOTHSUCK,

Agreed but we could certainly frame Iranian activists….c’mon man, this is America baby..

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TOWNCRIER,

Just like with christians el al, we humanists have no shortage of zagnuts on the fringes…perhaps even materially less than..maybe proportional though..most of us don’t judge others….whatever works…bear in mind many who take that tone have been hurt in the name of religion somewhere on their path….no excuse but true..

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Kam

IMO it is just a way to hide behind a veil but still push the same type agenda as did organizations like the Moral Majority.

BOTH

I don’t know that they have an agenda, but I believe they can be used by groups that do have an agenda.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ok, if that’s what you believe…what did the INSTITUTE do that did not include the involvment of ANY people?

Doggone/GA

I guess that is my point that I didn’t articulate. An institute is an organization of people that must come to some kind of consensus when decision making time comes around, and “politics” is that decision making process. “Religion” is that kind of institution, and I believe that spirituality suffers from that political process.

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Doggone/GA
September 24th, 2012
3:20 pm

“What is the definition for this term? Education level, income level, job type or some combination thereof?”

If you get a salary check – you’re white collar. If you get a paycheck – you’re blue collar (working class)

Dumbest statement of the day…Im on salary, and I’m without a doubt middle(working class)

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“FWIW, it’s made clear during the LDS Endowment process/ceremony that tithing is an *obligation* on the order of several other key covenants.”

Well, I think some conservative churches like the Baptist church strongly encourage a tithe of 10% to the church. But, again, that is an extra-Biblical expectation or teaching: Here is what, for instance, the Apostle Paul says about giving:

“Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver…” (Galatians 6:7)

“So I would agree with you to the extent that if all one’s charitable gifts are to a church per se, then there is something wrong with that picture.”

“FWIW, I don’t begrudge people the right to make whatever donations they please to their churches. I simply have an issue with calling *obligatory* tithes “charity,” as several of our posters were earlier today.”

I understand. But I am not certain Romney views them as such. I cannot read his mind on this subject.

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Seems to me that one side sez…every voter should be able to evidence proof they are of age and citizenship to vote..the other sez nonsense, we don’t need no stinking ID’s…

Well, I got to admit I filled out the ballot for my Mom one time. It was a absentee ballot and nobody needed any ID. You still don’t need a ID to vote absentee in GA. Anyhow, she died in October and it just didn’t seem fair she wouldn’t get to vote even tho she’d lived in the state pretty near 10 months of that year. It just don’t seem OK to me to tell a person you can’t vote just because you’re dead, even if you was alive for most of the year. I done my best to figure out how she would of voted and decided she would of voted straight Republican. But I never done it again. I figured she’d be pretty ripe in two more years and besides somebody in the voting office might of read the death notices.

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Mark T

September 24th, 2012
6:16 pm

Doggone/GA
September 24th, 2012
3:20 pm

“What is the definition for this term? Education level, income level, job type or some combination thereof?”

If you get a salary check – you’re white collar. If you get a paycheck – you’re blue collar (working class)

Dumbest statement of the day…Im on salary, and I’m without a doubt middle(working class)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Actually your statemnet is dumber. She can explain it to you, but she can’t understand it FOR you. Middle class is no more “working class” than an apple is an orange. I know it’s really hard for you to understand and in fact you WON’T understand it because Neal or Rush won’t clarify it for you so I won’t try to elaborate.

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Reported today, by who knows, that over 10M hispanics would “lose their vote”, whatever that means, by being required to have voter ID. So, perhaps even able bodied, hard working latinos have to have a voter ID to check their immigration status and see whether or not they have voting privileges. It’s simple. Go get a voter ID so the pollster can determine whether or not you have the right to vote. Anything else is a scam.

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Economic fairness? I thought we were for “shared prosperity.” Oh yeah, same thing.

As a public service, I will provide some background. To wit:

“Shared prosperity” is a focus-group tested phrase specifically coined to obfuscate O’bozo’s Marxist agenda. I will demonstrate to even the dullest knives in the lib ilk kitchen drawer what it really means:

Shared prosperity = social justice= equality of outcomes = economic justice = income redistribution = to each according to their needs = Marxism = O’bozo’s vision for America.

Scary I know, but true.

O’bozo’s goal: render the greatest country in the history of the world to something less than France. Or Kenya or something.

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I want to express my appreciation to Marty Huggins, to Paul and to Towncrier for a most enjoyable discussion. I’d like very much to continue it at another time, but family obligations call.

Be well, gents, and do drive safely.

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Bumper Sticker:

“Obama ‘08 – Redistribute the Wealth
Obama ‘12 – Redistribute the Poverty”

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Joe Hussein Mama

“Hmm. Are you suggesting that an LDS member, living rather ostentatiously (large new house, luxury car and truck, kids in elite private school) who only donated, say, $5K per year, wouldn’t be looked upon with some degree of suspicion?”

I suppose I’m thinking, given the range of people, anything’s possible. But one of my friends here – he’s a software writer in a very successful family business – used to serve as the local lay leader. Earlier, after one of your other postings, I’d asked him about a person (I think I couched it in terms of a new member, family money apportioned out from nonLDS, etc) living beyond what their statement would seem to indicate. I put up his hands in that palm-forward motion and said “hey, that’s not for me to decide. I’m just looking for a ‘yes’ or a ‘no.’ Each person has to decide for themselves, especially in unusual situations.” I must admit that one exchange that’s pretty current formed a big part of my impression of what now occurs. At least, I hope it’s a common attitude. Puts more responsibility on the individual to live with the consequences of their statements and doesn’t shift responsibility to someone else to ‘judge’ them.

Your other paragraph – of course I don’t take it as an attack. My thoughts were just what I could extrapolate from one article that was about whether or not the LDS Church owned stock in certain companies (something I’d picked up on an anti site). Then I went to an LDS site and they pretty much said ‘look, people donate all kinds of stocks. We get them, we sell them.”

Your point about your wife’s experience – okay, there are still some lulus around, eh? I don’t want to get too personal on this public forum, but I’d looked thru a couple of sites googled from ‘how to remove your name from LDS membership records.” Takes some…. judicious reading. There’s a bit of ire on some of them that’s not pleasant. But there are other sites that are more of a ‘okay, here’s what you do with the Catholic church, the LDS, the Methodist, etc”. I’d encourage her to go that route. Main thing I picked up was to write the local officials, cc the Membership Department in Salt Lake City, tell them you don’t want to meet with anyone, it’s something you’ve thought about for years, it’s just not a good fit for your and to notify you when the action is completed. Marry Huggins’ seemed to have a pretty good experience.

Really, JHM, my real concern for you and especially your wife is that negativity from unfortunate experiences can have a corrosive effect over the years. Just wanted to offer whatever encouragement I could that could lead to moving on and having contentment.

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REDNECK,

Damn funny post..dead people can and will continue to vote…democratic likely …

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“I make no argument on that point, but I would like to direct you here…”

The really odd thing to me about the LDS is that I believe they have a doctrine right I would not have expected them to have right – the one about repentance and adult immersion for the forgiveness of sins (as opposed to, say, “praying Jesus into your heart”, being sprinkled with water as an infant or being born in a “Christian” nation). I believe that is because someone in the LDS early on encountered someone from the Restoration Movement in America (or maybe one from the latter “converted” to the former).

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Those LDS’ers

I don’t think their claim that the garden of eden is in Missouri is any less difficult to swallow than walking on water…regardless…whatever works eh?

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Mark T

September 24th, 2012
6:29 pm

It was pretty clear to me…she directly stated “If you get a salary check, your white collar”…and that simply is not true…period
++++++++++++++++++++++++

It simply IS true…….. period. Don’t blame me for your lack of education and ability to define terms.

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Mark T

September 24th, 2012
6:37 pm

Middle class is not the same thing as working class

Really?…I make $50,000 a yr..and I load airplanes for a living…so I’m not middle and working class?
+++++++++++++++++++

By definition, no. If you were stupid enough to do an hourly job on a paycheck that’s not our fault.

Ever see teh movie Racing Stripes? Regardless of how fast that zebra could run or how many horses it beat, it was still a zebra, not a horse.

You argue about every damn thing don’t you? You should educate yourself and be willing to learn from others more and argue less.

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It was pretty clear to me…she directly stated “If you get a salary check, your white collar”…and that simply is not true…period

I prefer it’s original origins as it relates to the nature of the work….I know plenty blue collar guys making more than most white collar guys

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Mark

If you are not Delta then I guess Southwest (Air Tran) or one of the other majors has the same type job categories?

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Paul

September 24th, 2012
6:46 pm

Stevie Ray

Did you see the the NBC special with Brian Williams back in August? Led off with a guy who was a professor of religion at a big-name university. He said pretty much the same thing “before these good Christians ridicule another faith’s beliefs in miraculous events, they may want to consider some of the things they believe happened, like….”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Bob Jones never met a non Baptist he didn’t hate or think was a heathen or “cult.”

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Fred=clueless

They BOTH suck…yes anybody can get overtime out there for the most part

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Capitalism values profit and things above people (witness job layoffs), while Christianity (or more accurately the teaching of Jesus) values people above profit and things.

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“Capitalism values profit and things above people ”

Actually, that is the attitude of the people involved in a form of capitalism. There’s no such thing as “pure” capitalism and how it evolved is a reflection of the attitudes of the people involved…not of the system itselt.

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Mark T

September 24th, 2012
6:49 pm

Fred=clueless

They BOTH suck…yes anybody can get overtime out there for the most part
+++++++++++++++++

Gotta love it. Because the guy is ignorant, I’M clueless. Oh well you just can’t cure stupid. And left me define stupid for you.

Ignorant is not knowing something and every human is ignorant because we can’t know everything.

STUPID is being ignorant and loving every minute of it and pretending to be right. It’s wallowing in your ignorance rather than correcting the situation.

The hill you have decided to “defend” is indefensible but you are too stupid to admit that. Rather than say to Doggone, damn, I didn’t know that, thanks for telling me, you have chosen the stupid path. You attacked her and then me for your ignorance and stupidity.

How classy. You vote Republican don’t you?

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Eric 6:50

Nicely said.

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Aquagirl

September 24th, 2012
5:51 pm
Has anyone answered where the original atoms came from and how they were formed?

Atoms don’t exist. That “theory” was made up to support government grants for a $25 billion boondoggle in Oak Ridge, TN.
______________________________________________________________
I thought Atom was the little robot the could from “Real Steel”

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“Reported today, by who knows, that over 10M hispanics would “lose their vote”, whatever that means, by being required to have voter ID. ”

That would (it appears) be here:

=http://www.advancementproject.org/news/entry/voter-suppression-laws-could-disenfranchise-10-million-latinos

[Keeping a straight face] I could detect no partisanship or bias or perceptible agenda in this “report” at all. Liberals may feel free to cite it as “evidence” of yet another “evil” conspiracy among conservatives to oppress the poor and needy and preserve power. Voter ID laws have nothing to do with principle and potential voter fraud:

=http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/297461/reality-voter-fraud-john-fund
=http://www.statesman.com/opinion/spakovsky-voter-id-is-a-sensible-precaution-
1667416.html?printArticle=y
=http://www.forbes.com/sites/billfrezza/2012/08/08/sen-al-franken-voter-fraud-revelations-call-for-ways-to-reduce-it/

And, from our very own Kyle Wingfield:

=http://blogs.ajc.com/kyle-wingfield/2012/08/07/2012-tuesday-voter-fraud-not-suppression-is-real/

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the original atoms are from san diego….. next

http://www.sandiegopunk.com/botm/botmmarch05.php

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““Obama for President” thread #218″

Who needs bumper stickers with so much of the traditional media in the tank for Obama?

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Keep the excuses coming bumper sticker cons!

Just like last time, they’ll comfort you come November 7.

Why admit you have the weakest candidate in eighty years when you can blame somebody, anybody else!

This is gonna be one helluva hysterical 45 days…

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I’ll bet Big Nick is a Democrat

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