GOP strategists cannot like what they’re seeing
So this is what it looks like on Sept. 20, 2012, 47 days to the election that Newt Gingrich kept calling the most consequential since 1860:
In the presidential race, Mitt Romney remains neck and neck with Barack Obama in both the Rasmussen and Gallup tracking polls, with most of Obama’s post-convention bounce eroding. Other recent polls, however, show Obama building a significant lead. The latest Pew poll puts Obama up eight points; the latest NBC/Wall Street Journal poll puts him up five.
But Romney’s real problems show up at the state level. In the swing states that he has to have — Ohio, Virginia, Florida — poll after poll shows his situation deteriorating significantly. At a point in the campaign where he has to be shrinking the margin, the margin is growing. Fox puts Romney down seven in Ohio, down five in Florida and down seven in Virginia.
Republican hopes to take the Senate, a goal the party once deemed a near certainty, seem to be collapsing as well. In state after state, the numbers are turning. Massachusetts, Florida, Virginia, Connecticut, Ohio, Wisconsin — in every crucial state in which fresh numbers are available, the tide is strongly Democratic. Last night in red Arizona, a new poll put Democrat Richard Carmona up by five over U.S. Rep. Jeff Flake, the first lead Carmona has enjoyed. Other polls will be needed to confirm that switch, but back in June, Rasmussen gave Flake a seemingly insurmountable 16-point lead.
“I’m not one for hyperbole,” Nate Silver of Fivethirtyeight tweeted last night. “But GOP Senate map is imploding. Chance of a takeover now just 21%.”
Most if not all of these numbers were generated before release of the video of Mitt Romney speaking a little too candidly to a roomful of donors. But GOP candidates all over the country are explicitly rejecting those remarks, running from them like Japanese villagers fleeing Godzilla. In Washington yesterday, Senate Republican leaders abandoned the microphones rather than take questions on the subject. (Rich Lowry, editor of the conservative National Review, has an admirably frank analysis of Romney’s distorted mindset at Politico.)
Even if you don’t put much credence in poll numbers, watch and listen to the Republican political professionals. If you don’t believe it, they do. Some are already in blame-shifting or recrimination mode, or trying to tamp down panic. Their internal polls are apparently telling them what the public polls are telling the rest of us. They also understand that if this turns out to be what it looks like — a broad and significant shift toward Democrats — Democratic control of the House, once considered little more than a far-fetched dream by party leaders, could — I stress could — become a possibility.
On the GOP side of the ledger, 47 days is a long time in politics, and Romney still has three debates against Obama in which to turn things around. He has a lot of money yet to spend, both in his own campaign coffers and through “independent” campaigns funded by wealthy conservatives. Outside events could also intervene. (However, his ham-handed approach to events in Egypt and Libya don’t inspire confidence in his ability to turn that to his advantage, should it occur.)
Finally, electoral waves that build too early have a way of cresting and receding by the time Election Day comes around. So it ain’t over, not for a while yet.
But something does seem to be going on out there.
– Jay Bookman
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773 comments Add your comment
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
September 20th, 2012
2:41 pm
Towncrier:
Yes but it’s picking up steam.
Normal Free...Pro Human Rights Thug...And liking it!
September 20th, 2012
2:41 pm
Scout,
Then we have another thing in common. If offered a night of wild sex with Jeri Ryan or a chance to pizz on Johnson’s grave…I’d have to think long and hard on that one and would likely pick pizzing on Johnson’s grave.
Joe Hussein Mama
September 20th, 2012
2:43 pm
Towncrier — “I would say rather that you fail.”
Well, *of course* you would. (laughing)
“What he literally said was that no one got killed for making fun of Mormons. That is probably true, as I tried to intimate to you in my last post. But now you are showing your own ignorance. From the Wiki:
(snipped)
I married into a family that was LDS for five generations. So if you want to measure ignorance on the topic of the LDS, then let’s go, hotshot.
“Not quite the same as being made fun of, is it?”
Who said it was?
“I’m not playing this silly game of yours, today, my friend. Not worth my time.”
Oh, my friend, you’ve already gone and played it the moment you tried to speak for me. If it’s not worth your time, then kindly stop doing it.
“Now you are revealing your complete lack of objectivity and (how did you put it?) “tripping over [your] own crank”. How do you infer a “…mistaken guess about Mormons being all peaceful and unicorny and rainbowy and the like” from “…nobody has ever been harmed, much less killed, making fun of Mormons.”?
It’s quite simple. The author contrasts the “frenetic mob violence on the slimmest provocation” of Islam with a supposed peaceful and nonviolent group demeanor on the part of Mormons — which — if the author had any knowledge or early LDS church history — I doubt he would have argued for. It seems quite plain to me that the author is trying to display Islam and Mormonism as polar opposites in both their collective response to slights against their faith communities and in terms of how liberals view them (as if there was a single, state-approved liberal position on them).
The plain fact is — once again — that the LDS have a rather bloody early history, and IMO by not mentioning it and by portraying Mormons as some sort of antimatter-universe Muslims, the author is being dishonest and displaying *his own* lack of objectivity. Perhaps its just ignorance and lack of assiduous research on the author’s part, but by reading the comments, I’ve gleaned that the author seems to have something of an axe to grind against Muslims. So perhaps your criticism regarding lack of objectivity is being aimed in the wrong direction.
I’m not arguing that Muslims can be overly violent when they feel their faith is being threatened. I’m arguing that early LDS history shows the *same thing* and that the author either avoided mentioning it or is ignorant of it. Either way, that particular fail isn’t mine.
Now, if you want to talk about lack of objectivity, we can always go back to our first meeting, in which you excoriated me for holding a position I didn’t hold and for supporting an author I didn’t support (and hadn’t brought up). Quite frankly, I think you’re once again shooting first and asking questions later.
“All I can say is….bwahaahaaahaaa.”
Your concession and surrender are noted and appreciated.
USMC
September 20th, 2012
2:44 pm
“USMC? YOU can make gumbo? I don’t believe you lol. What part of town are you in again? We may just have to have a gumbo cook off………
Speaking of which, when is the Stone Mountain Chili cook off?”–Fred
No Fred, I was attempting to offer you Beer and Cigars for some of your gumbo! Typical CON!
jconservative
September 20th, 2012
2:44 pm
The reason Romney has a problem with Obama being up in the polls a few points is that early voting starts soon. Real soon. Virginia Sept 22, Ohio October 2 and Florida October 22. If the Democrats get out their vote early, as they did in some critical states in 2008, being behind 5 points in the polls in Florida, Ohio and Virginia will cost Romney the election.
Very informative article by Major Garrett of the National Journal if you will check their site.
Romney is handing the election to Obama on a silver platter.
UNCLE SAMANTHA
September 20th, 2012
2:44 pm
getalife
What do we need to do?
#1 – Form a 3rd party with a coalition of the moderates of both parties and independents
#2 enact TAX REFORM
the tax system is the tool used to keep the 1% in power and in wealth
it is so complex that even the IRS cannot give accurate answers
because of this the PARTIES and the 1% use the system to maintain their wealth and power as the middle class falls from being able to live on 1 earner income to struggling on 2 earner incomes
#3 pool all of our money into credit unions / small banks
they have set up a system of debt and investment that give the 1% wealth and us nothing
the BIG BANK charge us money to keep our money in their bank so they can LEND it to the 1% at rates LOWER than we can get……….. we subsidize the rich with our banking habits………
Rightwing Troll
September 20th, 2012
2:44 pm
“On the GOP side of the ledger, 47 days is a long time in politics, and Romney still has three debates against Obama in which to turn things around. ”
They’ll probably want to cancel those debates, the less Mittens opens his pompous, out-of-touch pie hole, the better his chances will be…
getalife
September 20th, 2012
2:45 pm
“Stone Mountain Chili cook off?”
I went every year.
Did not try much chili but it is a party.
Fred ™
September 20th, 2012
2:45 pm
I’m down with everything USMC except them nasty assed cigars. Can’t stand them things although God knows I tried. Back when I used to smoke I think I tried every type of cigar there is. I even bought expensive cubans overseas and in Mexico and Canada. No dice. Cigars and Scotch. Never acquired a taste for either one.
USMC
September 20th, 2012
2:45 pm
“Then we have another thing in common. If offered a night of wild sex with Jeri Ryan or a chance to pizz on Johnson’s grave…I’d have to think long and hard on that one and would likely pick pizzing on Johnson’s grave.”
Can I swap Jeri Ryan for Michele Bachmann??
Fred ™
September 20th, 2012
2:47 pm
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
September 20th, 2012
2:41 pm
Towncrier:
Yes but it’s picking up steam.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
What do you think about it? Jesus CLEARLY states ‘My Kingdom is not of this world.”
I have a problem with churches being used as shelters for political action committees………
USMC
September 20th, 2012
2:47 pm
“I’m down with everything USMC except them nasty assed cigars. Can’t stand them things although God knows I tried. Back when I used to smoke I think I tried every type of cigar there is. I even bought expensive cubans overseas and in Mexico and Canada. No dice. Cigars and Scotch. Never acquired a taste for either one.”
Done! SON! I will bring you a pack of Getalife’s Kool cigarettes. Deal!
(
Fred ™
September 20th, 2012
2:50 pm
jconservative
September 20th, 2012
2:44 pm
The reason Romney has a problem with Obama being up in the polls a few points is that early voting starts soon.
++++++++++++++++++++
Damn good point. And here in Georgia it starts 15th of October.
Fred ™
September 20th, 2012
2:51 pm
USMC: You have to smoke outside lol. Let’s ask Oscar if he wants to come and we can all meet at the Hickory House on Northlake lol.
getalife
September 20th, 2012
2:53 pm
Uncle Sam,
That is great but this election is only two parties.
One votes for the wealthy you talking about and the other does too sometimes.
But only one party votes for the middle class for this election.
Your ideas are good ones for the future but this election is a few weeks away.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
September 20th, 2012
2:53 pm
Normal Free…Pro Human Rights Thug…And liking it! :
You do that and I’ll do McNamara’s !
USMC
September 20th, 2012
2:54 pm
“USMC: You have to smoke outside lol. Let’s ask Oscar if he wants to come and we can all meet at the Hickory House on Northlake lol.”
I don’t recall them serving GUMBO, Fred. Deal is off! LOL! But now that I think about it Hickory House is one of my all time favorites, so I will reconsider. We definitely need beer for the games!
Paul
September 20th, 2012
2:55 pm
Fred
Scotch runs the gamut from light, heathery, honeyed to peat bog and salt air.
Ever try any good single malts? Glenmorangie? Dalwhinnie?
USMC
“Can I swap Jeri Ryan for Michele Bachmann??”
You’d want to see those eyes every time you opened yours?
http://tinyurl.com/bvjkzfj
getalife
September 20th, 2012
2:55 pm
USMC,
Monte Cristo # 2 from Cuba and Crown on the rocks.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
September 20th, 2012
2:56 pm
Fred:
“I have a problem with churches being used as shelters for political action committees………:
So do I but liberal and African-American churches have done it forever.
I have been “on duty” in some of those churches with political speakers during services and that was all that was talked about.
So ……………… time to take it all the way and both sides obey the rules one way or the other.
Partisay
September 20th, 2012
2:57 pm
Ever notice how late the cons are in getting on here in the mornings? You know what it is. They’re all watching the astute Doocie, Kilmeade & the voluptuous Gretchen….They’re so hot!!!
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
September 20th, 2012
2:57 pm
Normal Free…Pro Human Rights Thug…And liking it! :
Have you ever seen these ?
Once a Warrior King by David Donovan:
“If there was immorality in the war in Vietnam, it was that a democratic nation called her citizens to war, had them killed by the tens of thousands, and then, like a faithless lover, turned and scorned the survivors. Oh, perfidious nation!”
“I have the sense from time to time that I am not alone, and I suspect that despite the limited understanding we have of events in distant places, there will always be those among us who have the gleam of the quest in their eyes. They are people of every sex and station and they yearn to be challenged to a cause. They will always be looking for that wrong to right, that ill to cure, that song to sing; and there will always be those who will go to arms in aid of the helpless and the downtrodden. Ignoring the political issues of the moment, these people will champion the weak and the poor in the face of evil and tyranny. And no matter what the outcome, in their romantic hearts they will always keep the secret, if secret it must be, that they are better men for having held the lamp beside the golden door”.
Lord Help Us
September 20th, 2012
2:59 pm
‘Monte Cristo # 2 from Cuba and Crown on the rocks.’
Unfiltered Pall Mall and a PBR (h/t – my dear departed Grandma)
USMC
September 20th, 2012
3:00 pm
“You’d want to see those eyes every time you opened yours?”–Paul
LOL! Paul. That’s about what those eyes will look like to. LOL!
But don’t forget that sexy pose…
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-08-15/entertainment/30001029_1_michele-bachmann-straw-poll-picture
Normal Free...Pro Human Rights Thug...And liking it!
September 20th, 2012
3:00 pm
Off topic but this would be funny if it wasn’t so sad…I’m glad dr. Pepper doesn’t have any embassies…
http://lifeinc.today.com/_news/2012/09/20/13990802-evolutionary-dr-pepper-ad-spurs-religious-kerfuffle?lite#__utma=14933801.1201914330.1342432682.1348159673.1348164592.81&__utmb=14933801.7.10.1348164592&__utmc=14933801&__utmx=-&__utmz=14933801.1346420808.53.3.utmcsr=nbcnews.com|utmccn=(referral)|utmcmd=referral|utmcct=/&__utmv=14933801.|8=Earned%20By=msnbc|cover=1^12=Landing%20Content=Mixed=1^13=Landing%20Hostname=www.nbcnews.com=1^30=Visit%20Type%20to%20Content=Earned%20to%20Mixed=1&__utmk=106131715
Fred ™
September 20th, 2012
3:01 pm
USMC: We’ll meet at Hickory House for BREAKFAST, not the beer, gumbo and game lol
Paul: I’ve tried a plethora of scotch. I even own (and have for almost 10 years) an unopened bottle of Johnny Walker Blue. I just don’t like it.
Scout: I agree. Even it up.
And now I have to go cook. Ya’ll be cool.
Erwin's cat
September 20th, 2012
3:04 pm
Never mind the 4000 millionaires that paid no federal income tax…
It’s possible those millionaires lost more money than the made
Fred ™
September 20th, 2012
3:04 pm
NORMAL!!!!!!!!!!!!! TINYURL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dude, I mean REALLY……….. http://tinyurl.com/
Look what happens to that unmanageable glop you posted……….
http://tinyurl.com/cyhjj9o
Fred ™
September 20th, 2012
3:05 pm
Erwin’s cat
September 20th, 2012
3:04 pm
Never mind the 4000 millionaires that paid no federal income tax…
It’s possible those millionaires lost more money than the made
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Really? Did you have to think about that lol? You USED to post good stuff.
Paul
September 20th, 2012
3:06 pm
USMC
I notice you identified only with her pose…. nothing else…
Paul
September 20th, 2012
3:07 pm
Fred
Save the bottle of Blue for someone you want to score a whole lot of points with.
It’s like a get out of jail free card for life.
USMC
September 20th, 2012
3:07 pm
Obama administration FINALLY telling the truth that Benghazi was TERRORIST ATTACK!
Obama official: Benghazi was a terrorist attack
http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/09/19/obama_official_benghazi_was_a_terrorist_attack
UNCLE SAMANTHA
September 20th, 2012
3:07 pm
getalife
bad news………… no matter how the election turns out……….. we have entered a LOST DECADE like Japan did in the early 1990’s
They had a real estate bubble and had an aging WWII population hit their retirement system………. (sound familiar)…………. when they had their crash….. they propped up the banks and did not let the markets remake the industry……… they did one stimulus after another to get the growth growing…….they paid out retirement and medical to the retirees with less workers…… they piled on debt until they now owe 200%+ of their GDP (proof we wont collapse)…. they moved production from their big companies to lower wage countries in Asia…………..and the LOST DECADE lasted almost 20 years…….. they are in a slow growth/job situation…………….
that is where we are headed and both parties are leading us there
it will only have to be intervention by the moderate middle class to take us off this trajectory
John 12202012 Birch
September 20th, 2012
3:08 pm
The Mayan prediction was right too. Obama gets re-elected in November and in December the world ends!
JKL2
September 20th, 2012
3:08 pm
getalife- They fight for the wealthy and you are not wealthy.
Democrats hate the wealthy.
They demand “equal opportunity” but vilify anyone who is successful.
Why do you bend over for them? Do you enjoy watching those who refuse to work benefit from your labor?
Paul
September 20th, 2012
3:09 pm
USMC
Pundits and politicians have the luxury of addressing rumors, suppositions, a little evidence or clues, unverified reports, with little chance of repercussion.
The Chief Executive – not so much.
Towncrier
September 20th, 2012
3:10 pm
“I’m not arguing that Muslims can [sic] be overly violent when they feel their faith is being threatened. I’m arguing that early LDS history shows the *same thing* and that the author either avoided mentioning it or is ignorant of it.”
And you are straining out a gnat, only to swallow a camel. Try to discredit the author’s column as much as you wish, the demonstrable fact remains that liberals have few qualms about brazenly ridiculing Christianity or Mormonism or Catholicism (but not, interestingly, Judaism), but are afraid or loathe to do the same to Islam. THAT is the broader thesis of the column. It has been shown time and again. And It represents a double standard and is hypocritical.
JKL2
September 20th, 2012
3:12 pm
getalife- Why do you bow down for the wealthy when you are middle class?
What good will making them poor benefit anyone outside of satisfying your vendictive hate?
Fred ™
September 20th, 2012
3:14 pm
the demonstrable fact remains that liberals have few qualms about brazenly ridiculing Christianity or Mormonism or Catholicism
You are baptist aren’t you? The reason I ask is that almost everyone EXCEPT a Southern Baptist would consider Mormons and Catholics as Christians…………
Towncrier
September 20th, 2012
3:15 pm
“What do you think about it? Jesus CLEARLY states ‘My Kingdom is not of this world.’ I have a problem with churches being used as shelters for political action committees…”
In the conservative churches I have attended in the past two or so decades, politics have never been preached or discussed.
getalife
September 20th, 2012
3:15 pm
Uncle Sam,
You are informed and you are correct.
Look how the tea party made the news and elected many in Congress.
They proved a movement can be done and can elect people with your thinking.
Towncrier
September 20th, 2012
3:18 pm
“You are baptist aren’t you?”
I am not.
“The reason I ask is that almost everyone EXCEPT a Southern Baptist would consider Mormons and Catholics as Christians…”
I wasn’t sifting wheat in that statement but just recalling particular attacks – Christianity in general, Catholics and now (with Romney running) Mormonism. I guess I could have said Baptists as well.
Towncrier
September 20th, 2012
3:19 pm
Alright…got to run.
Paul
September 20th, 2012
3:20 pm
Joe Hussein Mama
“’m not arguing that Muslims can be overly violent when they feel their faith is being threatened. I’m arguing that early LDS history shows the *same thing* and that the author either avoided mentioning it or is ignorant of it. ”
Really?!!? Joe, I’m rather taken aback by your characterization.
I believe the guy was making the point of the most probable response and the level of the response. What reading I’ve done on early LDS history shows a pretty restrained response. They were mobbed out of Missouri (the governor even signed an order to the militia telling them to drive out the mormons or exterminate every man, woman, and child) Wasn’t rescinded until 1976.
“U.S. Sen. Christopher S. “Kit” Bond, who as Missouri governor in 1976 rescinded the 1838 “extermination order,” authorizing the expulsion of Mormons from the state…You bet I’d do it again,” Bond declared regarding his rescission of Gov. Lilburn W. Boggs’ 1838 order. “The treatment of the Mormon people in Missouri in the 1830s and beyond was barbaric. Women were raped and tortured. Men were killed by mobs or driven out of state. Their property was stolen. The lucky ones were those who were left alive with nothing and were forced to make their way into a more hospitable state.”
What makes it especially hard to understand was that the barbarism was state-sanctioned, Bond said, adding that Boggs’ order made it legal to kill anyone who belonged to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
“What surprised me was that as late as 1976, the law was still on the books, though thankfully, it had not been enforced and nobody paid attention to it,” Bond said.
“We cannot change history, but we certainly ought to be able to learn from it and where possible acknowledge past mistakes,” he said. “That was what motivated me to rescind the extermination order in 1976.”
Then they got mobbed out of Illinois. Even when their leader was murdered they didn’t rise up and take arms and seek vengeance. Then when the US Army invaded the Utah territory they didn’t rise up in bloody defense.
Sure there were instances of some fighting back. Of tragic excesses. But those were one-off – not the sort of generalized, predictable response we see in the ME and Indonesia.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700036138/Former-Missouri-governor-honored-for-rescinding-Mormon-extermination-order.html?pg=all
Normal Free...Pro Human Rights Thug...And liking it!
September 20th, 2012
3:21 pm
Fred,
Thanks for the schooling. I’ll try it out!
JKL2
September 20th, 2012
3:21 pm
scout- Consider the following facts about the city from which President Obama rose through the ranks of American public…
He should be sharing a bunk bed with Blagojevich for the next 7-14 years.
The one I actually feel sorry for is Roland Burris. I always liked him until all this BS broke out. Not sure he is another rat or just got caught up in this mess. Either way, he is damaged goods.
Wouldn’t be surprized if he ends up on someone’s ticket next election…
JKL2
September 20th, 2012
3:23 pm
getalife- No Americans are celebrating the death of Americans.
I would have sworn you were American. Are you here in the country legally?
getalife
September 20th, 2012
3:24 pm
jk,
I don’t hate my rich friends and they are doing better than ever.
They don’t need your help or my help.
Got it?
getalife
September 20th, 2012
3:26 pm
“I would have sworn you were American. Are you here in the country legally?”
I am a proud American supporting my President and country.
What are you doing psycho?
JKL2
September 20th, 2012
3:30 pm
jm- You look silly bowed down for the wealthy like mitt
obama is the expert on bowing to third world dictators.
I suggest you ask him for some pointers.
122 more days
September 20th, 2012
3:30 pm
Come Jan 20, 2013 President Romeny will man up and take responsibility for the mess that Bozo has created.
Bozo has had almost 4 years and still doesn’t know whatz going on and still blaming Bush.
Jimmy Carter was heads and shoulders better than Bozo.
getalife
September 20th, 2012
3:30 pm
The Libyans are honoring the Americans that we lost.
UNCLE SAMANTHA
September 20th, 2012
3:30 pm
there’s a storm on the horizon
the middle class moderates are going to form a 3rd party
and put this country back to a land of opportunity
UNCLE SAMANTHA
September 20th, 2012
3:33 pm
does anyone really believe that a few muslim protestors in a foreign country represent ALL people of that country?
that would be like the a foreign country seeing news of the OCCUPY WALLSTREET crowd and think they represent ALL OF AMERICA
getalife
September 20th, 2012
3:33 pm
There will be no President robme.
Uncle Sam,
I look forward to it.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
September 20th, 2012
3:33 pm
Mohammed rode his camel sidesaddle !
getalife
September 20th, 2012
3:34 pm
They are going to get you Scout.
Joe Hussein Mama
September 20th, 2012
3:39 pm
Towncrier — “And you are straining out a gnat, only to swallow a camel.”
You’re pretty clearly positing an argument where there is none and missing the argument I’m presenting.
“Try to discredit the author’s column as much as you wish”
Tried, done, completed.
“the demonstrable fact remains that liberals have few qualms about brazenly ridiculing Christianity or Mormonism or Catholicism (but not, interestingly, Judaism), but are afraid or loathe to do the same to Islam.”
Your “demonstrable fact” is nothing of the sort and far from the axiomatic item you appear to think it is. Furthermore, your assertion of motivation (e.g. fear as the putative reason for your imagined herd behavior) is both unsupported and IMO, issues forth from your apparent personal dislike of liberals.
The article cites Hillary Clinton’s attendance and behavior at a performance of The Book Of Mormon earlier this year. Are we then to presume that Hillary Clinton’s behavior is not only a barometer of liberal sensibilities but also a roadmap for how other liberals are to behave? I can’t know your thoughts on the matter, but it certainly seems to me that that’s what both you and the author are saying.
“THAT is the broader thesis of the column. It has been shown time and again.”
Sorry, neither. You can cite individuals’ behavior all you like, but that doesn’t make that behavior universal or constant.
FWIW, I think you’ve been quite quick to take offense at comments antagonistic towards christianity here lately, and I’m not speaking of my own comments. I’ve made it quite clear here in the past that I’m perfectly content to leave people alone in the pursuit of their religious precept and practice and that I find *all* religions to be pretty much equally silly. However, to argue as the writer has done (and as you have supported) that one particular religion seems to axiomatically prefer violence and that another seems to axiomatically prefer peace seems to me to be quite self-serving. The author ignores the many examples — many dating back to 9/11 — in which Muslims expressed both regret for violence done by their faith brothers and sorrow for American losses. Conversely, the author also ignores the LDS’ early and bloody history, setting us up for — IMO — a very hypocritical and self-serving construct whereby Christian = good and Muslim = bad.
Shrug. From where I’m standing, Mr. Stephens might as well have allowed USMC to write his column for all the thought it appears he put into it.
“And It represents a double standard and is hypocritical.”
I think that presenting Mormons as universally peaceable is much the same. Perhaps you might consider reading up on the LDS’ early history; I think you’ll find plenty of material to make you reconsider that particular facet of the author’s argument.
Joe Hussein Mama
September 20th, 2012
3:47 pm
Paul — “Really?!!? Joe, I’m rather taken aback by your characterization.”
That’s why I ask folks like Towncrier not to speak for me. Folks usually guess wrong.
“I believe the guy was making the point of the most probable response and the level of the response. What reading I’ve done on early LDS history shows a pretty restrained response. They were mobbed out of Missouri (the governor even signed an order to the militia telling them to drive out the mormons or exterminate every man, woman, and child) Wasn’t rescinded until 1976.”
Move forward a bit in time and see how the Mormons behaved in the Utah Territory. The Mountain Meadows massacre involves the deliberate ambush and slaughter of the adults and most children in a party of settlers; the youngest children were distributed to Mormon households and raised as Mormons, and most were never told about their birth parents. Mormon leadership blamed local Indians for the massacre, but church records and correspondence prove otherwise.
Also look for an instance in which Mormon militias directly attacked a formation of US Army cavalry.
“Then they got mobbed out of Illinois. Even when their leader was murdered they didn’t rise up and take arms and seek vengeance.”
I’m not saying that they weren’t mistreated on their move westward, but I AM saying that when they got to Utah, they treated others as poorly as they themselves had been treated.
“Then when the US Army invaded the Utah territory they didn’t rise up in bloody defense.”
Well, yes and no.
“Sure there were instances of some fighting back. Of tragic excesses. But those were one-off – not the sort of generalized, predictable response we see in the ME and Indonesia.”
As I said earlier, I don’t excuse the Muslim overreactions we often see — but I sometimes wonder why cons refuse to acknowledge the existence of moderate Muslims who express sorrow, regret and solidarity — even with Americans — when their brothers and sisters engage in such excess.
FWIW, I don’t think that EITHER the Muslims or the Mormons are all good or all bad. And I think that we have a few posters who *do* think of one as always good and the other as always bad. That sort of mindset and thinking pattern helps no one IMO.
JKL2
September 20th, 2012
3:50 pm
getalife- I don’t hate my rich friends and they are doing better than ever.
LIAR! They are evil and you hate them.
Make them pay!
JKL2
September 20th, 2012
3:56 pm
getalife- I am a proud American supporting my President and country.
If you are proud of it, why are you trying to “radically transform” it?
If our president was any good at all, you wouldn’t have to spend all your time telling us how bad you think Romney is. Our embassies are bing attacked and all you can say is “look at what Romney said!”
Erwin's cat
September 20th, 2012
3:59 pm
Fred – Really? Did you have to think about that lol? You USED to post good stuff.
This topic is tired
Jay
September 20th, 2012
4:01 pm
Erwin, there’s another post upstairs.
JKL2
September 20th, 2012
4:04 pm
Joe- “Then they got mobbed out of Illinois. Even when their leader was murdered they didn’t rise up and take arms and seek vengeance.”
Their militia outnumbered the Army 4:1. They thought it would be better to leave then actually starting a war. Nobody “mobbed” them out of anywhere.
Krystal'sBalls
September 20th, 2012
4:06 pm
And see… with one comment about gumbo , which then turned into cigars and scotch we can see if just for a moment how those who would claw each others’ eyes out over a political or social position can become instantly communal in a moment of fellowship, caring not about their differences. And to think people take swipes at Occupiers for seemingly enjoying sitting together and sharing a fat doobie.
Oh well, back to the bloodbath….
Joe Hussein Mama
September 20th, 2012
4:06 pm
JKL, Paul said that, not me. I only quoted him.
Paul
September 20th, 2012
5:42 pm
Joe
I obliquely referred to events as Mountain Meadows – but the overarching point is this occurred years after Missouri and was not part of a generalized pattern as we see in the ME. Tellingly, I’ve found when people are asked to name instances of Mormon violent response, they cite Mountain Meadows and then go ‘and… ummmm….. lemme think…” As I said, in nearly any group over a couple hundred years you’ve going to find instances. Question is, is it the norm or an aberration?
“I’m not saying that they weren’t mistreated on their move westward, but I AM saying that when they got to Utah, they treated others as poorly as they themselves had been treated.”
I think that flies in the face of history. To be true, one would have to make the case Mormons in Utah raped and tortured and murdered nonMormon settlers, burned their farms killed the men and Brigham Young would have had to have issued a decree to drive all the nonMormons out or kill them all.
Because that’s what happened in Missouri. And absent the government decree, that’s what was shaping up in Illinois before they left and went west.
I do appreciate you continued willingness to see shades of gray instead of what we see here so often – all black or all white. It gets back to what I was getting at earlier – how do the scales fall when all is weighed. Moe the historian’s view of things.
Paul
September 20th, 2012
5:43 pm
JKL2
Not much of an historian, are you?
Just Saying..
September 20th, 2012
6:46 pm
“The media is in overdrive to keep anything negative from Obama and to work as hard as they can to position Romney negatively. It’s now an all out push, no pretense, just partisanship”
I hear Hanger 51 is showing this weekend…
Vast Right Wing Conspiracy (aka "Knuckle-Dragger")
September 20th, 2012
7:46 pm
Interestingly enough, my polls still have Romney up significantly, as well as Republicans up and down the ticket. As I have written before, I wonder who is correct?
Mick
September 20th, 2012
8:41 pm
**But GOP candidates all over the country are explicitly rejecting those remarks, running from them like Japanese villagers fleeing Godzilla.**
Nice imagery…
a. l. west
September 21st, 2012
10:44 am
Go to c-span.org to listen to rommey’s video 5/14/12 For any of you who doubt Rommey said 47% of Americans do not pay income tax and consider themselves victims and feel they are ENTITLED(spoken loudly by rommey) to healthcare, food, medicare, medicaid (pays for seniors disabled health and nursing homes and health for children for 26% of 47% of low earners without healthcare or need foodstamps to help them put food in their childrens mouth. 41% of Georgians. seniors. veterans low earners etc(whites , they are talking about you too(only 15 of U.S. total populations are black) so do not believe republicans are caring about anything but your vote. Write in other names after you check the voting records on your repubican senators, they voted with filibuster mcconnel on 364 votes i.e voting against veterans jobs and bill taking tax cuts from corporations taking your jobs overseas and give to small business/corporations who hire here in U.S. Go to C-span.org to check your republican/democrat vote and you. All republicans voted for Ryan’s budget, read it on c-span.org, see if you want everything cut from you and your family to give more tax cuts to millionaires.
Look at ads lying about democrats, Rove of crossroads said he has 1 billion dollars of unidentified donors to elect more republicans, Wisconsin Koch Bros, American prosperity also is spending billions for the same purpose. U.S. Chamber of commerce who represent corporations are buying ads to get rid of democrats because they voted to give corp./small business who hire in the U> S> the tax cut.
Big Republican donors starting to panic - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum
September 22nd, 2012
12:41 am
[...] last night. “But GOP Senate map is imploding. Chance of a takeover now just 21%.” GOP strategists cannot like what they’re seeing | Jay Bookman __________________ http://www.reaganbushdebt.org/ [...]