Romney, Bain dancing at outer boundaries of tax law

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“Big business is doing fine in many places – they get the loans they need, they can deal with all the regulation. They know how to find ways to get through the tax code, save money by putting various things in the places where there are low tax havens around the world for their businesses.”
– Mitt Romney

And as we’re confirming through leaked internal Bain documents, Romney’s statement this week to a group of wealthy donors amounts to expert testimony. When it comes to “find(ing) ways to get through the tax code, sav(ing) money by putting various things in the places where there are low tax havens around the world,” such as Switzerland, Luxembourg and the Caymans, Romney knows his stuff.

Those leaked documents also have cast light on a highly controversial and perhaps illegal strategy used by Bain Capital to slash the tax burden of Romney and its other partners.

It works like this:

Private equity partners such as Romney are traditionally paid a fee of 2 percent of the capital that investors give them to manage. It is, by any definition, earned income identical in nature if not in amount to the income that most American workers collect in their paycheck. And by law, it also ought to be taxed as earned income.

At Bain, however, they have managed to wave a magic wand over that management fee, utter some arcane tax-lawyer mumbo-jumbo and convert earned income into capital gains, which is then taxed at 15 percent instead of the 35 percent that people in top tax brackets are by law supposed to pay on earned income. (The process is explained here in more technical language by the Wall Street Journal.)

In 2008, a study of the technique by Gregg Polsky, a tax-law professor at the University of North Carolina, concluded that it is “extremely aggressive and subject to serious challenge by the IRS…. The tax result, if this technique is successful, is the conversion of current ordinary income into deferred capital gains. ”

Victor Fleischer, a tax-law professor at the University of Colorado, is even more blunt:

“Unlike carried interest, which is unseemly but perfectly legal, Bain’s management fee conversions are not legal. If challenged in court, Bain would lose. The Bain partners, in my opinion, misreported their income if they reported these converted fees as capital gain instead of ordinary income… Bottom line: Mitt Romney has not paid all the taxes required under law.”

(H/T to poster Common Sense)

– Jay Bookman

199 comments Add your comment

Real Scootter

August 25th, 2012
12:09 pm

Real Scootter

August 25th, 2012
12:09 pm

Welcome to the Occupation

August 25th, 2012
12:10 pm

Though this might be interesting to those of following things closely, to most voters this is just so much inside baseball. Until you address the fundamental issue that Americans have not been encouraged to really think about what it means that we tax labor punitively while all but abolishing taxes on capital, it won’t really make a lot of difference. The common voter is still going to lean GOP or not, and if those who do will still shrug and say “well, you can’t blame them for seeking out every tax advantage they can find”. Most voters more or less accept the idea that these players are borderline corrupt.

Welcome to the Occupation

August 25th, 2012
12:13 pm

Until the fundamental fact that the people have been taught to despise taxes as an unnecessary evil, they will still on some deep level – perhaps sub-rational – identify with these capitalists with whom they have nothing in common.

Common Sense isn't very Common - Bored in Pittsburgh

August 25th, 2012
12:17 pm

Remember all the tax shelters that ORDINARY people used a one time that the IRS ruled as illegal?

It seems that the wealthy’s tax shelters are still in play.

I don’t see how Romney can say he EARNED his income when he pays UNEARNED income taxes on it.

The tax laws need to be changed to tax ALL income at the SAME rates that is FAIR taxing.

JKL2

August 25th, 2012
12:18 pm

- They know how to find ways to get through the tax code,

Charlie Rangel says,”What?”

Who needs leaked documents when Harry Reid still has a phone…

Common Sense isn't very Common - Bored in Pittsburgh

August 25th, 2012
12:21 pm

who needs Liberal Pariah when we have some others here?

:-)

Keep Up the Good Fight!

August 25th, 2012
12:24 pm

So Mitt appears to be lying again when he claims to have paid all taxes legally required…. I am shocked. :roll:

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

August 25th, 2012
12:26 pm

Will this have legal consequences?

Doubtful.

Electoral politics?

That’s probably a different story.

And not coincidental that this story is breaking just prior to the R’s convention.

USMC

August 25th, 2012
12:28 pm

Obama’s brutal WAR on middle-class incomes. Negative $4,019…
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303822204577468750027784434.html#

While Jay Bookman works around the clock to proliferate the Party Propaganda, reality has deeper repercussions. Nice try though, Jay. :-)

Real Scootter

August 25th, 2012
12:29 pm

Well,I don’t know if Romney is lying or not but I still wouldn’t trust him in an outhouse with a muzzle on his face.Whew!

Keep Up the Good Fight!

August 25th, 2012
12:31 pm

Kam, I suspect the legal consequences would be the start of some IRS investigations which would take some time and likely be spun by the GOP as “Obama’s IRS Storm Troopers” or similar nonsense by the same people who whine about others not paying taxes. But let’s hope that the IRS does do a real investigation, absent of politics, and let it conclude after the election, whoever wins. There are likely a lot more cheats in this one than Mitt.

Jay

August 25th, 2012
12:31 pm

As a rule, USMC, it is advisable to actually read a link before you cite it as evidence of your claim. In this particular case, the author of the linked piece cites not a single policy or decision by Obama that can be blamed for that decline in income.

Not a single one.

Common Sense isn't very Common - Bored in Pittsburgh

August 25th, 2012
12:33 pm

in the IT world income totally stagnated during 2000-2009 as the implosion of the financial industry was happening.

During that same time period H1b’s visas were still being issued at an alarming rate.

The middle class in that industry has been decimated and has not yet recovered.

Thank the BIG Business politicians for that.

Brosephus™

August 25th, 2012
12:37 pm

I read about this earlier. I’d say Romney’s digging himself into a deep hole. Between the gawker release and his interview which will hit newspapers tomorrow, he’s going to have a hard week in Tampa. All I can say is “Bless his heart.”

Gordon

August 25th, 2012
12:39 pm

Is it or is it not illegal? And if it was challenged in court and was found to be illegal, why is there a problem as long as Bain pays the taxes? There is no deception here, just a possible difference of opinion on the interpretation of the law.

This is not an indictment of Bain or Romney, it is an indictment of the ridiculous tax laws we have in the country. Bain hires tax lawyers to wade through that mess as do a lot of wealthy individuals and corporations. So what?

Nice Old Dawg

August 25th, 2012
12:39 pm

Eschew obfuscation…
THe Dems are trying to divert attention from the important Stuff with their not so slight of hand. Good ole boy cronyism and insider trading are making the Dems wealthy and no one even says a thing. But when an evil rich white guy does good, we have to search for the gotcha. Give it a rest. It is in the code and legal. Why not bark up the tree’s of Pelosi (insider trading), Rangel (tax evasion and non disclosure) and Harry Reid (I heard he is a pedophile and didn’t pay his taxes)……..

Brosephus™

August 25th, 2012
12:40 pm

As a rule, USMC, it is advisable to actually read a link before you cite it as evidence of your claim.

I hope you realize that, since you are the one advising that, he’s not going to read a single syllable from any link he posts from now on. What true “conservative” is going to take advice from a extreme far-leftist such as you, Jay?

:lol:

Jay

August 25th, 2012
12:42 pm

I hope you realize that, since you are the one advising that, he’s not going to read a single syllable from any link he posts from now on.

So you’re saying nothing changes?

Common Sense isn't very Common - Bored in Pittsburgh

August 25th, 2012
12:43 pm

Gordon and Nice Old Dawg

whether it is legal or not.

Does it show that the wealthy have more benefits available to them than others? If so WHY?

the bottom line is fairness.

Keep Up the Good Fight!

August 25th, 2012
12:44 pm

The constant posts of “47% of the moocher class pay no taxes” but when it comes to Mitt “hey, you’re trying to divert attention” or “its the fault of the tax laws” or “we don’t really need to ask any questions here, move along.”

How sad.

Brosephus™

August 25th, 2012
12:45 pm

This is not an indictment of Bain or Romney, it is an indictment of the ridiculous tax laws we have in the country.

But it is an indictment of a candidate whose campaign is based on his actions while in control of Bain. It is also an indictment of the entire apparatus that clings to the notion of continuing to eviscrate our tax code in the name of tax cuts from people who are already screwing the country out of bona fide tax receipts.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

August 25th, 2012
12:45 pm

Keep

Like you said an IRS investigation takes time, the election however is just a couple of months away. If the “lame stream media” is “in the tank” for Obama as it is suggested here on a daily basis, then this story would have legs like an Olympic athlete.

I suspect it’ll be more like, “Meh, rich people hide their asset/money all the time, no biggie.”

Brosephus™

August 25th, 2012
12:45 pm

Jay

Yuuuuuppppppp!!!!!

Gordon

August 25th, 2012
12:46 pm

Common,

Then get the tax laws changed. I think that’s a great idea. But don’t blame Bain or Romney for paying as little taxes as possible under existing law. Do you deliberately pay more taxes than you legally owe? I think it is a shame that anyone has to hire someone to do their taxes, and my daughter is a tax accountant.

Veteran Observer

August 25th, 2012
12:48 pm

Nice try Jay again! Governor Romney paid over $3million in taxes last year and donated $1 million to charity! The working people of America admire and celebrate his success and his generosity! We look forward to his first term as President so he can bring HOPE and CHANGE to everyone in this land! President Obama has failed because of his lack of experience and ability! The entire country knows it and will vote in November to end his administration and reenergize our economy and our country! It is sad to see the President and his minions like yourself reduced to attacking a successful man’s achievements because there is nothing that he has accomplished in his first term! The people will not be fooled again with his lies and false promises, our almost four year nightmare as a nation is about to end!

Jay

August 25th, 2012
12:48 pm

And I certainly don’t hear the conservatives saying “she’s only abiding by the law” when complaining bitterly about a food-stamp recipient buying steaks.

Don’t hear that at all. Wonder why the reactions are so different?

Gordon

August 25th, 2012
12:49 pm

Brosephus @12:45,

Why is it an indictment of Romney? Because he hires tax lawyers to pay as little tax as possible? I use TurboTax to help me find deductions. Should I be ashamed of myself for trying to pay legally pay less taxes?

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

August 25th, 2012
12:49 pm

And I certainly don’t hear the conservatives saying “she’s only abiding by the law” when talking about a food-stamp recipient buying steaks.

Don’t hear that at all. Wonder why the reactions are so different?

Wealth envy.

Orange12

August 25th, 2012
12:50 pm

Unrelated, but it appears as is the people of St Augustne are might miss out on paying hommage to “Chains Joe”. I bet they are going to be heartbroken. Then again, when Obama was snowing every one with that “Hope and Change” BS maybe he really meant “Hope and Chains”.
http://staugustine.com/police-report/2012-08-24

Skip

August 25th, 2012
12:51 pm

Gordon, I don’t have input into tax codes, people like Mitt do. It’s that simple.

Gordon

August 25th, 2012
12:51 pm

Jay,

I’ve never said such a person wasn’t abiding by the law. But I might have said they were making a poor decision. Is Romney making a poor decision here? I don’t see the logic in your analogy.

Common Sense isn't very Common - Bored in Pittsburgh

August 25th, 2012
12:53 pm

Gordon

Are you trying to make your daughter one of the unemployed?

Shame on you :-)

I agree what Romney did was probably legal, but not fair to the ones who don’t have the same leverage.

Also, using foreign bank accounts allows those offshore banks to invest in areas that ARE TOTALLY ILLEGAL for US banks and then he can have the gains created by ILLEGAL investments.

Unless and until he releases his tax returns and they are vetted no one will know the truth.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

August 25th, 2012
12:55 pm

I don’t see the logic in your analogy.

.

A

.

“steak

.

buying

.

welfare

.

queen”

.

is

.

not

.

running

.

for

.

the

.

office

.

of

.

President

.

of

.

the

.

United

.

States

.

of

.

America.

.

Geez….

Jay

August 25th, 2012
12:56 pm

“The working people of America admire and celebrate his success and his generosity!”

So tell me, Veteran Observer, what do YOU do for a living?

Gordon

August 25th, 2012
12:56 pm

Skip,

So now the problem is not that Romney shouldn’t be trying to pay less taxes, it is that the wealthy tend to have more influence on tax and other types of legislation than others. Okay, but that’s a different subject. One idea to help with that might be to eliminate tax deductions which is something Romney supports (though it is a fair argument that he hasn’t released enough details about this).

Anna B

August 25th, 2012
12:58 pm

Nice article Jay – I really appreciate the articles that the AJC has … you take on things that the “liberal” MSM seems to avoid. I’m learning a lot about the wealthy and their tax schemes this cycle, and the more I do, the more it stinks. Anyone who would elect R&R are really scary in this regard. We don’t need any more tax cuts for these people! They are not “job creators”, they are tax evaders! It’s disgusting to me that I have worked all of my life and pay higher taxes than these clowns like Romney who don’t even work for their money!

JamVet

August 25th, 2012
12:58 pm

As a rule, USMC, it is advisable to actually read a link before you cite it as evidence of your claim.

Not again?

My goodmess (sic on purpose), the ex-marine has a knack for opening wide and inserting both feet, doesn’t he?

But it’s all good, because he and the other Republiostriches love picking up the tab for their idolized tax dodgers like Mitt…

larry

August 25th, 2012
12:58 pm

But don’t blame Bain or Romney for paying as little taxes as possible under existing law.

It is, by any definition, earned income identical in nature if not in amount to the income that most American workers collect in their paycheck. And by law, it also ought to be taxed as earned income.

At Bain, however, they have managed to wave a magic wand over that management fee, utter some arcane tax-lawyer mumbo-jumbo and convert earned income into capital gains, which is then taxed at 15 percent instead of the 35 percent that people in top tax brackets are by law supposed to pay on earned income.

They are not paying as little taxes as possible under existing law. They are breaking the law. What i would like to know is why the IRS or SEC investigating Bain and Mr. Romney. They are getting all sorts of information and they are sitting on their hands.

Oh, and dont get me started on his IRA. How he could millions in it when tax law says you can only put 5,000 dollars in it per year ( as of 2010). And he says trust me?

Gordon

August 25th, 2012
1:00 pm

Common,

“Are you trying to make your daughter one of the unemployed?

Shame on you”

Absolutely not! Just got her off the payroll.

“I agree what Romney did was probably legal…”

That is all that matters to me in the context of this discussion.

“Unless and until he releases his tax returns and they are vetted no one will know the truth.”

Vetted by who? The political class? I assume they have been vetted by the Internal Revenue Service, and if they have a problem with them Mr. Romney will and his tax lawyers will have to deal with it.

Keep Up the Good Fight!

August 25th, 2012
1:01 pm

Seems some confuse deductions with unlawful tax avoidance schemes…. they are not the same.

Kam, I agree that the conned will dismiss it, but I hope the IRS does not. The trouble is often these tax collection battles take years but ultimately they bring in much more than they cost.

Brosephus™

August 25th, 2012
1:02 pm

Gordon

Did you not read what I posted?

Romney has made his managment of Bain a qualifier for him to become president. If his management has included any controversial or maybe even illegal behavior, does that not go to the credibility of the candidate? If Romney didn’t want to make himself the Bain candidate, then you would have a point.

Second, Romney has talked about giving more tax cuts to the wealthy when it’s quite obvious they have enough loopholes that another tax cut for them is practically meaningless. WHen you can say “abracadabra” and change earned income to carried interest, you’ve already got a 20% tax cut. Why do you need another one? Again, this goes to the credibility of the candidate.

We don’t need a tax cut champion in the White House. We need somebody who’s going to deal with reality and not hide behind vague statements to mask the fact that he is completely clueless. That means, we need someone other than Romney in the White House. GOP primary voters had ample opportunity to champion someone who could defeat Obama. Don’t blame me because you guys ended up with Joe Isuzu as your candidate. I didn’t vote for him in the primary. My pick had already withdrawn by GA’s primary.

TaxPayer

August 25th, 2012
1:02 pm

And Republicans will continue to defend Romney even if he is found to have cheated the IRS out of taxes that he legitimately owed and even if he cheated his own church out of their true tithe, etc. After all, they’re Republicans.

Gordon

August 25th, 2012
1:03 pm

Larry at 12:58 has settled it. Bain broke the law. Romney could have saved a lot of money if he had just checked with Larry instead of hiring a bunch of tax lawyers. Next subject….

Anna B

August 25th, 2012
1:03 pm

And I love the people who highlight Mitt’s “charitable” contributions as something important. He donated to the frickin Moman church, who should not even have tax free status (like many other churches) because they are highly involved in politics. If you don’t believe me, take a look at the prop 8 gay marriage ballot initiative in california recently (or, as I like to call it prop HATE). The mormon church put a great deal of money into financing a misleading advertising campaign. Now WHY should such an institution have tax free status?

Brosephus™

August 25th, 2012
1:04 pm

I assume they have been vetted by the Internal Revenue Service, and if they have a problem with them Mr. Romney will and his tax lawyers will have to deal with it.

And just where do you think the IRS people get hired when they leave the government? Do you not realize that GE’s Tax Dept is full of ex-IRS people? When you hire the enforcement, do you really think they’re going to bite the hand that will eventually feed them?

Common Sense isn't very Common - Bored in Pittsburgh

August 25th, 2012
1:04 pm

The working people of America admire and celebrate his success and his generosity
—————————————————————————-

The LDS celebrate his generosity others who the hell knows since the tax returns haven’t been released.

His success at offshoring jobs? at closing companies?

larry

August 25th, 2012
1:05 pm

What i would like to know is why the IRS or SEC investigating Bain and Mr. Romney.

That should read, what i would like to know is why isn’t the IRS or SEC investigating Bain and Mr. Romney.

Recon 0311 2533

August 25th, 2012
1:05 pm

Jay’s quoting Romney’s lead in to talking about where the hurt exists and it’s in the small business sector where Obama’s policies have hurt the most. This Bain Capital and Tax return drum beat has resonated about as much with voters as Obama’s blame Bush strategy.

Steve

August 25th, 2012
1:08 pm

What a crap article. Not one fact. If it were illegal, the IRS would be challenging it. Fair? Let’s simplify the tax code so it can’t be manipulated. But that doesn’t make Romney or bain’s activities immoral or illegal

Keep Up the Good Fight!

August 25th, 2012
1:08 pm

Charitable contributions are a deduction from taxes and have little to nothing to do with paying for the government….. but Mitt is trying to divert attention.

larry

August 25th, 2012
1:10 pm

It seems that Gordon has a little trouble telling the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion.

Please read again…….

At Bain, however, they have managed to wave a magic wand over that management fee, utter some arcane tax-lawyer mumbo-jumbo and convert earned income into capital gains, which is then taxed at 15 percent instead of the 35 percent that people in top tax brackets are by law supposed to pay on earned income.

Didn’t Maddoff have tax lawyers ………… and Enron?

Gordon

August 25th, 2012
1:11 pm

Brosephus,

Most of what you wrote is political. I actually agree with some of that. I have reservations about the tax cuts Romney proposes because I haven’t seen the details on what would offset it.

Regarding Bain, it is the Obama campaign that has brought that up repeatedly, not Romney, in an obvious attempt to paint Romney as a cruel tyrant who crushes anyone in his way of making a buck. Romney has made the point that he is a successful businessman, and that experience might come in handy in running the economy. Both viewpoints are political positions.

Finally, I would not use the phrase “dealing with reality” if you are supporting Obama. He has no plan for dealing with runaway spending. His campaign is not “look at what I accomplished” or “here is what I am going to do”, it is “Romney is rich and rich people are mean”.

Common Sense isn't very Common - Bored in Pittsburgh

August 25th, 2012
1:11 pm

AND the banks offshore that BAIN and Romney have investments in have TOTALLY legal investments?

no one knows for sure but the Shadow :-)

Vast Right Wing Conspiracy (aka "Knuckle-Dragger")

August 25th, 2012
1:14 pm

Still nothing on 10%, 11% unemployment? Still nothing on another $1 trillion plus deficit? Still nothing on $4/gallon gas? All you have to write about is Romney’s taxes? As he said, at least you are not asking him for a birth certificate.

You provide alot of entertainment value, but this is going to get pretty old by November.

Any businessman owes it to himself and his shareholders to minimize his tax bill. This is called “good business”, which I understand is a foreign concept to liberals. Check Newsweek, CNN, Solyndra, etc. I can drive my tax bill to “zero” by purchasing tax credits, if I am willing to also incur the risk.

Gordon

August 25th, 2012
1:18 pm

It seems Larry has a little trouble distinquishing between actual tax law decided in a court and an opinion written on a blog. He has mastered cut and paste however.

Bain is not trying to deceive anyone. Many times a tax lawyer will advise a client in a certain way and taxes are filed. Then the I.R.S. challenges the return, a court sides with the I.R.S., and the difference in taxes are paid. There is a difference in that and deliberately not reporting income. The difference is whether or not deception is involved. Where is the evidence of deception here?

TaxPayer

August 25th, 2012
1:23 pm

Only a Republican would consider it good business to lie and cheat.

Michael

August 25th, 2012
1:26 pm

Low tax haven around the world? He is boasting about tax evasion. Last I checked it was a crime. He’s one of those dumbest criminals alive. Saying here I am come arrest me.

TaxPayer

August 25th, 2012
1:26 pm

Recon 0311 2533

August 25th, 2012
1:28 pm

The difference is whether or not deception is involved. Where is the evidence of deception here?

Evidence…the left has never let lack of evidence stop them from putting out misinformation, disinformation and out right lies.

larry

August 25th, 2012
1:28 pm

So do you have any evidence that the I.R.S. has challenged any return from Romney or Bain for that matter ?

And what is your explaination for the 100 million dollars in his IRA, when you can only put 5,000 dollars per year in it ?

Real Scootter

August 25th, 2012
1:29 pm

“Only a Republican would consider it good business to lie and cheat”

:roll:

N-GA

August 25th, 2012
1:32 pm

It cracks me up when some of the posters here talk about Bain’s/Romney LEGAL deductions, saying that if they were illegal then the IRS would have denied them.

IMO, most of the posters here who file itemized returns probably break some IRS rule or regulation regarding deductions, but routinely get away with it. They rationalize their behavior by claiming that “everyone does it, so why shouldn’t I?

Veteran Observer

August 25th, 2012
1:32 pm

Jay, I run a couple of businesses which employ 64 people and inject millions into the economy! I come from the middle class where my father worked and went to night school for 18 years to get a college degree to support our family! I went to college and got my degree by working three jobs and not borrowing a dime from my parents or the government! Finally, when I started my businesses, I did not pay myself for many years and routinely sacrificed and worked 12-15 hours a day and many weekends until the business established itself! Like Governor Romney, I donate a significant portion of my earnings, pay a goodly sum in taxes, and attempt to pay as little as possible so I can support my community better! The President’s ignorance of our free enterprise system is horrendous and does account for his many failures, but what can you expect from a person with his limited background from a rich family, sheltered and educated at Harvard, and no real world experience! I actually feel sorry for the man as Ted Kennedy pushed him into this and he has risen beyond his training and abilities!

Keep Up the Good Fight!

August 25th, 2012
1:33 pm

The evidence is in the returns and papers…… but hey, these are the same people that ignore evidence to demand birth certificates. :roll:

Keep Up the Good Fight!

August 25th, 2012
1:35 pm

what can you expect from a person with his limited background from a rich family, sheltered and educated at Harvard

We are talking Mitt here, right, I mean as long as we’re standing in line at the Whole Foods with those claims of millions that you did without roads, bridges, airports, etc.

TaxPayer

August 25th, 2012
1:36 pm

Republicans continue to support Romney even as the evidence continues to pile up against his suitability for any public office above dog catcher. Release the tax returns, Mitt, you cheat.

Recon 0311 2533

August 25th, 2012
1:36 pm

Well I’m certain that Jay’s expose along with assistance from the corporate tax experts here on his blog will result in a government investigation of Bain Capital and Mitt Romney, which will lead to Mitt’s incarceration in a Federal prison.

TaxPayer

August 25th, 2012
1:37 pm

Oops, did I say Mitt was qualified to transport dogs. My bad.

Brosephus™

August 25th, 2012
1:39 pm

Regarding Bain, it is the Obama campaign that has brought that up repeatedly, not Romney,

Bullcrap. Romney’s brought up his experience at Bain numerous times in regards to his ablity to govern the US as president.

Finally, I would not use the phrase “dealing with reality” if you are supporting Obama.

Have you heard me say I support Obama? Did you not read the part where I stated my choice had withdrawn by GA’s primary? Please deal with reality as I have no problem with it, but apparently you don’t actively read enough to say the same.

Brosephus™
August 25th, 2012
1:02 pm

GOP primary voters had ample opportunity to champion someone who could defeat Obama. Don’t blame me because you guys ended up with Joe Isuzu as your candidate. I didn’t vote for him in the primary. My pick had already withdrawn by GA’s primary.

Can you show where I claimed, hinted, or even inferred where I support Obama?

Jay

August 25th, 2012
1:40 pm

“Jay, I run a couple of businesses which employ 64 people and inject millions into the economy!”

Good for you, Veteran. I just wanted to know your credentials for speaking on behalf of “the working people,” as opposed to, say, the investing class. And I suspect I have my answer.

larry

August 25th, 2012
1:41 pm

From the Washington Post………..

One expert on private equity taxation, University of Colorado law professor Victor Fleischer, said Thursday in a blog posting that the records from one entity, Bain Capital Fund VII LP, a Cayman Islands-based offshore account, showed that the fund’s managers appear to have converted their fees from ordinary income to future capital gains. Such a maneuver, Fleischer said, would allow the income to be deferred and taken later at a lower 15 percent capital gains rate.

Larry

August 25th, 2012
1:41 pm

We all knew it was something that would not reflect well on Romney. Has anyone seen how much Ryan contributed to his Catholic church? If you are promoting cutting aid to the poor in this nation, your contributions better be something you can be proud of, or shame on you!

weetamoe

August 25th, 2012
1:42 pm

Let’s simplify the tax law. Everyone pays the same percentage–of either all income or just earned income depending on which is deemed more just (not *fair*). Abolish all deductions including mortgage and charitable. Remove any and all incentives for punitive taxation. Apply a means test for entitlements. Require a literacy test for voting. And everyone will then be sharing the sacrifice and Jay will no longer be forced to refer to some mythological republican hatin’ on some mythological fat lady for buying some undeserved piece of meat from some cow that was inhumanely slaughtered.

Brosephus™

August 25th, 2012
1:42 pm

IMO, most of the posters here who file itemized returns probably break some IRS rule or regulation regarding deductions, but routinely get away with it. They rationalize their behavior by claiming that “everyone does it, so why shouldn’t I?

Don’t forget about staffing and budget cuts directed at the IRS that has crippled their efforts at enforcing anything. The IRS is the only government agency that generates more money that it spends, which at one time was a 4 to 1 ratio. What better way to get away with things than to hamstring the very people who would catch you and prosecute you for doing those things.

Nice Old Dawg

August 25th, 2012
1:42 pm

Taxpayer and all the rest of you left wing bedwetters:
1) Tax avoidance is legal. So, why don’t all you Democrats pay extra if you want. NO ONE is stopping you.
2) The vast majority of charitable contributions come from republicans. Democrats are only generous with other peoples money.
3) Slobama is real anxious to get Romney to disclose his tax returns and be “Open”. Well, why is it that Obama has most EVERY document that relates to him sealed? Hypocrites, all of you. Pitooey on you…..

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

August 25th, 2012
1:43 pm

Good for you, Veteran. I just wanted to know your credentials for speaking on behalf of “the working people,” as opposed to, say, the investing class. And I suspect I have my answer.

Bait.
Cast.
STRIKE!

Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)

August 25th, 2012
1:44 pm

Well, I wish Bookman and all the librul commies would just shut up about Romney’s taxes. If they keep going like this somebody’s going to start working on the tax code again and before you know it I won’t be getting a refund of $5,000 for the $400 the take out of my paycheck for federal income tax. My tax preparer Bubba says it’s all legal and a credit and something that has a fancy name that starts with a E. He tells me to take good care of little Nathan Zell George because he’s a kind of gold mine for me. Just the same, if they keep grumbling about Romney’s taxes he’ll still find a way to get around the rules but I’ll be paying taxes out of my rear end and they’ll even be taxing my pee.

Anyhow, let’s talk about something else, like how Obama is going to turn us over to the UN and take all our money and guns and make us wear powder blue helmets.

Have a good weekend everybody.

TaxPayer

August 25th, 2012
1:45 pm

Sheldon Adelson, the gambling magnate and major financial backer of the less-than-devout Mormon, Mitt, is under investigation. Based on what we have already learned about Mitt’s background, I actually would not be surprised to find out that he’s already been investigated and maybe even had to pay some hefty fines and back taxes in order to avoid a rather embarassing jail sentence like some others involved with such things as hiding money in Swiss bank accounts have had to deal with. Come clean, Mitt. Start by releasing those tax returns.

Brosephus™

August 25th, 2012
1:46 pm

Nice Old Dawg

TANF funds can be used for whatever. So, why don’t all you Republicans shut up about what people do with their welfare money. If you don’t like what they do with it, then hire them and pay them a living wage so they don’t need welfare.

That bullcrap can get thrown in both directions, hombre.

larry

August 25th, 2012
1:49 pm

TaxPayer

August 25th, 2012
1:51 pm

Nice old dawg,

The topic here is Mitt and his suitability for the highest office in the land and the more that is revealed about his shady past–from his beginnings at Bain and acceptance of blood money from South America to his use of offshore accounts whose only value are in skirting US tax law in order to avoid paying taxes, legally or otherwise, and his outsourcing of jobs and use of corporate raider techniques designed to enrich himself at the expense of the working class, etc.,–the less suited he looks for the job. Then again, from a Republican’s perspective, those are all highly valued qualifications, I sure.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

August 25th, 2012
1:52 pm

1) Tax avoidance is legal.

Yep, but political dynamite if you’re trying to get people to vote for you.

So, why don’t all you Democrats pay extra if you want. NO ONE is stopping you.

Tu Quoque

The fallacy of tu quoque occurs in our reasoning if we conclude that someone’s argument not to perform some act must be faulty because the arguer himself or herself has performed it. Similarly, when we point out that the arguer doesn’t practice what he preaches, we may be therefore suppose that there must be an error in the preaching, but we are reasoning fallaciously and creating a tu quoque.

2) The vast majority of charitable contributions come from republicans. Democrats are only generous with other peoples money.

Take out tithing and I wonder if that is still true

3) Slobama is real anxious to get Romney to disclose his tax returns and be “Open”. Well, why is it that Obama has most EVERY document that relates to him sealed? Hypocrites, all of you. Pitooey on you…..

Birthers.

:roll:

Brosephus™

August 25th, 2012
1:53 pm

Y’all have fun. It’s too beautiful outside to sit here and watch people play dodgeball trying to defend Joe Isuzu.

TaxPayer

August 25th, 2012
1:53 pm

And nice old dawg, if I’m a left wing bedwetter, it is only because you are sleeping under me and I do not want to deprive you of your cherished trickle down even as you sleep. :roll:

ken

August 25th, 2012
1:55 pm

GE did not pay taxes and you say nothing. I’ll bet GE bends laws also. Also, do you think former Democratic Gov Corzine will ever go to trial ? I don’t think so !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hawkeye

August 25th, 2012
1:56 pm

Romney is a joke. The country has alreaddy been ‘BUSH Wacked’, now they want to continue the same – with ROMNEY!!!!!

No one on eigher side is addressing the real problem. The solutions are the same. I could go on, but a samll voice in this large forrest of special interest do not want to hear it.

ld

August 25th, 2012
1:57 pm

…and that’s likely NOT the only “smoking gun” in the returns.

ld

August 25th, 2012
1:58 pm

Taxpayer @ 1:53:

APPLAUSE.

Keep Up the Good Fight!

August 25th, 2012
1:59 pm

Tax avoidence is “legal”….except when the courts determine it’s not legal and its not longer just “avoidence”, its a crime.

larry

August 25th, 2012
2:00 pm

larry

August 25th, 2012
2:02 pm

GE did not pay taxes and you say nothing.

GE is not running for president. Companies are not people……..

Huh? Wait………

Jay

August 25th, 2012
2:03 pm

Actually, Ken, I was drawing attention to GE and other corporations not paying taxes as far back as 2008. Back then, conservatives didn’t seem bothered by the idea at all. They actually applauded.

In fact, it continue to fascinate me that while quite a few major corporations are paying little or nothing in taxes, conservatives focus their ire only on GE, and have done so only after that corporation became associated in their minds with Obama.

All other corporations that avoid taxes don’t get mentioned.

Jay

August 25th, 2012
2:04 pm

Veteran Observer

August 25th, 2012
2:06 pm

Jay, the investing class must mean someone like Bill and Hillary Clinton, who made 100s of thousands of dollars “speculating” with Stephens and Company in Arkansas. I am sorry, by working people, I mean someone who earns a living and works hard for it and doesn’t receive assistance from the government. Unlike, Michelle Obama, who made almost $500 thousand a year for being the affirmative action coordinator for a hospital in Chicago(political job)! I also mean all the folks in this country who would work but have been hurt because of this President and his lack of experience and business sense in his programs and initiatives! No Jay any extra money I make goes into the businesses or the local community because to send it to Washington is to waste it completely! As I said before, the working people of this country will throw off the chains of oppression with which the Democrats and this President would enslave them(see VP Biden) and vote to end this Presidency and create a new administration with business and administrative experience under President Romney! Now I have to go back to work as I have wasted too much time with this blog!

Hawkeye

August 25th, 2012
2:17 pm

We all ( I do) what we can to lower our taxes. I thing that there should be a law that ‘any one running for office should be requred to release 5 years of tax records’ That would end this and make everyone running for office more careful about their behavior if the want to serve the public. As far as Romney, he did whatever he could to pay as little as he could. But do not run your record unless you are willing to own up to it and show the people.

G Mare

August 25th, 2012
2:23 pm

Thank you Larry, that clip is awesome!

Thomas

August 25th, 2012
2:25 pm

All mice nuts compared to the wealth tranfer that takes place with the current tax code. The only real loser is the middle class in the current overly complex tax code. The rich avoid and evade, the poor get hand outs (they should receive from a system other than the filing of a form 1040), the middle class foots the bill.

Refundable Tax Credits in the President’s 2011 Budget

To get a broader perspective of the effect of these refundable tax credits, it may be better to investigate the President’s 2011 budget. This budget includes several hundred billion dollars of refundable tax credits. In direct spending outlays, these effects will total $509 billion from 2010 to 2020. This means 31 percent of the President’s “tax credits” are direct outlays, so these are direct spending costs to taxpayers.

larry

August 25th, 2012
2:31 pm

Interesting story from the AP, the Romney campaign is secretly using a data mining operation to sift through Americans personal information.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_ROMNEYS_MONEY_HUNT?SITE=WDUN&SECTION=BUSINESS&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Keep Up the Good Fight!

August 25th, 2012
2:34 pm

“This use of total return equity swaps, such as to avoid the U.S. dividend withholding tax, was very widespread for more than a decade, and may not be dead yet, although the IRS issued a shot-across-the-bow Notice concerning the practice in 2010,” writes Daniel Shaviro, the Wayne Perry Professor of Taxation at New York University School of Law. “But taxpayers who engaged in it to avoid the dividend withholding tax were coming perilously close to committing tax fraud, in cases where the economic equivalence to direct ownership was too great.”

Well I am certain that if this statement had been made about Obama, why the conned would rush to defend the President and to say…but, but, but… :roll: