The policy implications of Mitt Romney’s 13 percent
Tax accountant Mitt Romney, having given investor Mitt Romney’s tax returns a thorough and independent review, reported Thursday that presidential candidate Mitt Romney had paid a minimum of 13 percent of his income in federal taxes every year for the past decade.
So that settles that, I guess.
Actually, I’m willing to take Romney’s word on this specific point. He should still release additional tax returns, and it’s quite clear that there’s something in those returns that in Romney’s mind would not pass muster with the voters. There is no other plausible explanation for why he has refused to follow the precedent set by every other major candidate in the modern era.
However, on the matter of whether Romney paid taxes, and how much he paid, I’m willing to trust his word. For one thing, the backlash should it prove to have been a lie would devastate his campaign. (And yes, accepting Romney’s word means that Harry Reid has either been badly misled by his secret informer or that the Senate majority leader is himself lying.)
In revealing the minimum level of taxes that he has paid, Romney also questioned why so much attention continues to be focused on the matter:
“I just have to say, given the challenges that America faces — 23 million people out of work, Iran about to become nuclear, one out of six Americans in poverty — the fascination with taxes I’ve paid I find to be very small-minded compared to the broad issues that we face.”
On that point, Romney’s answer is much too coy.
Romney is very wealthy. Tax rates on the wealthy is one of the more heated policy questions in this campaign season. So voters are naturally curious about what effect current tax policy has had on his financial situation, and what effect proposed changes would have.
As we know, the Republican position has long been that taxes on the wealthy and on corporations are punitively high, and that reducing them would help create jobs and new investment. President Bush, for example, used that argument in successfully pushing major tax cuts in 2001 and 2003, yet finished his eight-year presidency with fewer private non-farm payroll jobs than when he began.
Despite that history, both Romney and his running mate, Paul Ryan, continue to push the story line that America’s wealthy are being used and abused by the ungrateful masses, and continue to present tax plans that would further favor wealthier Americans. For example, the budget proposed by Ryan in 2010 and passed with overwhelming GOP support in the House would have cut Romney’s effective tax rate to 0.82 percent in 2010, the only year for which Romney has released his returns.
Even without that change, however, Romney’s effective tax rate of roughly 13 percent for at least two in the last 10 years suggests that the picture of an overtaxed upper class is simply wrong. Millions and millions of less-affluent Americans pay Uncle Sam a lot bigger share of their income than did Romney, and they have every reason to wonder why that might be.
– Jay Bookman
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498 comments Add your comment
moonbat betty
August 17th, 2012
3:40 pm
“Just show the taxes”
Mittney (I just coined that) is having too much fun watching the left go ballistic.
Thulsa Doom
August 17th, 2012
3:41 pm
getalife,
Most schools don’t publicly report them because they are of such minor insiginificance if they are secondary in nature.Nobody really cares if they are minor, accidental violations. Alabama’s were reported because someone wanted to know and filed a freedom of info request.
In the case of LSU though they reported some major violations in the last 2 years which are of much greater significance. LSU had to forfeit 2 scholarships due to the more serious nature of these violations.
http://espn.go.com/blog/sec/post/_/id/9739/lsu-self-reports-ncaa-violations
Towncrier
August 17th, 2012
3:41 pm
“He’s required to as a member of the LDS. I’m not saying that’s good, bad or indifferent; it simply is what it is.”
I don’t believe Mormons are “required” to tithe 10% – just encouraged to do so. Otherwise, how do you explain Reid’s paltry charitable contributions (isn’t he also a Mormon)?
stands for decibels (SfBA)
August 17th, 2012
3:41 pm
woo hoo! Heathen SHEETZ.
Thomas
August 17th, 2012
3:41 pm
Romney wants very hard to be elected with us knowing absolutely as little about him as possible
100% false. GT- apply for a job and the employer will ask for college transcript + employment history. Ask for tax returns- uh no.
Does anyone think for one moment if the tax returns were fraudulent that the Service would not be auditing.
Grow the hell up and admit you simply hate someone. Don’t try to justify your hatred.
JamVet
August 17th, 2012
3:41 pm
Flip has punked himself. And as jonix observed about Fish Sandwich last night, he stinks on ice.
IF Flip grew some balls and IF did what every other candidate has ever done, and what the American people expect him to do, he loses! Because OBVIOUSLY there will be some something in those returns very damning to the oligarch candidate. Something along the lines of in the past 12 years he paid either nothing at all or some absurdly small amount in one or more of those years.
And if the spineless one doesn’t release them, he plays into the nationwide perception that he is hiding from the American people.
Either way, the same conclusion has to be drawn.
Unfit to lead.
Thulsa Doom
August 17th, 2012
3:43 pm
moonbat betty,
I think Mitt is playing them. I wouldn’t be surprised if he is holding them or preparing them and releases them at an opportune time to embarrass Harry Reid and the Dems.
Steve-USA "None of the Above"
August 17th, 2012
3:43 pm
“He’s required to as a member of the LDS. I’m not saying that’s good, bad or indifferent; it simply is what it is.”
Except he chooses to be a member of the LDS. It is not a requirement.
He still doesn’t get my vote but I thank him for his large tax payments. He put a hell of a lot more into the tax bucket then I did.
I can’t get to worked up by either side. When Obama wins Romney will still be rich. If by some miracle Romney wins Obama will score about a $15 million dollar book deal and he gets even richer. Either way they still have way more coin than me. Good for them.
Doggone/GA
August 17th, 2012
3:43 pm
a straw man
a rabbit hole …or
a goal posts move
You forgot one: looking at the WHOLE picture, and not just one little slice
Moderate Lin
August 17th, 2012
3:43 pm
GT
August 17th, 2012
3:29 pm
College records, when did that enter a list of things we need, to know what a president, especially one in office and a known commodity, can or cannot do? When I see these desperate stabs at got ya by the right I really am beginning to believe O is going to win this thing bigger that I first thought.
Taxes gives you a very good present day look at what you are. If we don’t need any of this disclosure lets take it off the books, but I don’t think that is how we elect a president. Romney wants very hard to be elected with us knowing absolutely as little about him as possible. It has been a theme ever since he was in the primaries. Getting in office and finding out these things that always come up is a little late.
+++++
That must be why Harry Reid and Pelosi have not released any tax records and only 17 members of congress have.
http://www.rollcall.com/news/nancy_pelosi_downplays_tax_return_demand-216283-1.html
Erwin's cat
August 17th, 2012
3:44 pm
Taxers!
Moderate Lin
August 17th, 2012
3:45 pm
Steve-USA “None of the Above”
August 17th, 2012
3:43 pm
“He’s required to as a member of the LDS. I’m not saying that’s good, bad or indifferent; it simply is what it is.”
Except he chooses to be a member of the LDS. It is not a requirement.
He still doesn’t get my vote but I thank him for his large tax payments. He put a hell of a lot more into the tax bucket then I did.
I can’t get to worked up by either side. When Obama wins Romney will still be rich. If by some miracle Romney wins Obama will score about a $15 million dollar book deal and he gets even richer. Either way they still have way more coin than me. Good for them.
+++
I agree completely.
liberal hack
August 17th, 2012
3:45 pm
Jay, stepped away for a while, but I’ll do my best to answer your question. I’d say yes, based on how much interest you earn, kinda like the income tax which is progressive. the less you earn in interest, the lower the rate. I’d go with 3 rates, 5%, 10%, 15% since I would eliminate (if there are any) deductions on capital gains….
doggone, I didn’t call for a flat tax, I said leave the rates alone as they currently are except eliminate the deductions. So my example stands, a person who makes 30,000 is taxed at 15% minus the personal deduction and the guy who makes 200,000 pays 35% minus the personal deduction.
stands for decibels, I get what you are saying, but it’s the deductions that are manipulated from year to year, that’s why getting rid of them should be the thing to do. You can’t hide behind deductions if there aren’t any….
Towncrier
August 17th, 2012
3:45 pm
“JMHO, but I think the “terrorist fist jab” business was in a similar position on the Stoopit Scale.”
Thanks, sfb. I think it as nearly as bad as well.
Doggone/GA
August 17th, 2012
3:45 pm
“apply for a job and the employer will ask for college transcript + employment history”
Mine didn’t. They did ask what schools I graduated from, they never asked for a transcript.
Thulsa Doom
August 17th, 2012
3:46 pm
Erwin’s cat
August 17th, 2012
3:34 pm
First I say…he paid a lot of money…and I get
the concept of proportionality…so I apply that to the total tax bill…and I get
well you just can’t look at those percentages you need to consider other variables…so is this
a straw man
a rabbit hole …or
a goal posts move
Erwin’s cat,
Seems like you forgot to include a 4th option for all of the above.
Erwin's cat
August 17th, 2012
3:47 pm
Doggone – You forgot one: looking at the WHOLE picture, and not just one little slice
It’s hard to know which “whole” picture to look at when the context of the debate is continually changing…
The whole picture – the rich pay more in taxes than the middle class and the poor.
TaxPayer
August 17th, 2012
3:48 pm
Birthers=Deniers.
Doggone/GA
August 17th, 2012
3:49 pm
“doggone, I didn’t call for a flat tax”
and I only used a flat rate as an example, because even with all the deductions removed…the rate for someone like Romny would STILL be way lower than it is for me. If you prefer, try this:
Taxpayer a – earned $50,000 – pays 25% in taxes – amount left = $37,500
Taxpayer b – earned $500,000 – pays 30% in taxes – amount left = $350,000
And I say again: go ahead and aske me to feel sorry for taxpayer b
Erwin's cat
August 17th, 2012
3:50 pm
Warmers = Penguin Sciencers
too little time
August 17th, 2012
3:51 pm
Even at 13%, Romney pays a higher rate than at least half of all wage earners…. the bottom half pay virtually NOTHING, and most of those get some kind of welfare.
The average family of four with a household income of under $50,000 pays NOTHING towards the operation of the federal government. All of this hand wringing over Romney’s taxes is hypocritical, at best.
Doggone/GA
August 17th, 2012
3:51 pm
“The whole picture – the rich pay more in taxes than the middle class and the poor.”
And control a bigger slice of the wealth pie. Sorry, but looking at one little slice of the whole picture doesn’t cut it. The way *I* see it, it should be a strict percentage basis. The top 2% of taxpayers should pay 98% of the total of taxes paid in, and the bottom 98% should pay 2% of the total of taxes paid in.
Erwin's cat
August 17th, 2012
3:52 pm
And control a bigger slice of the wealth pie.
Isn’t that why we call them “rich”?
moonbat betty
August 17th, 2012
3:52 pm
JamVet,
Talk about having scotums and spines…
Obama sure has lots of that after making all those outlandish promises to win an election and then not backing them up.
Have fun voting for Obama.
At least you don’t have to vote for Cynthia McKinney this time. (j/k)
TaxPayer
August 17th, 2012
3:53 pm
DENIERS cannot even acknowledge the work, much less the conclusions, offered up by their own Koch funded skeptic. Yes, it is warmer. Not that a denier would acknowledge the obvious.
Newby
August 17th, 2012
3:53 pm
Crier: “Obama’s baby mama”…
Thulsa Doom
August 17th, 2012
3:54 pm
Taxpayer a – earned $50,000 – pays 25% in taxes – amount left = $37,500
Taxpayer b – earned $500,000 – pays 30% in taxes – amount left = $350,000
And I say again: go ahead and aske me to feel sorry for taxpayer b
And now for the part that gets glossed over.
Taxpayer A paid $12,500 in taxes.
Taxpayer B paid $150,000 in taxes.
And they still don’t get it. More of the libs wanting to equalize everyone by tearing down those at the top. Don’t try giving opportunity to everyone and bringing people from the bottom up. Much easier to play the class warfare card and just bring down those at the top. Its a shame people think this way.
stands for decibels (SfBA)
August 17th, 2012
3:54 pm
that’s why getting rid of them should be the thing to do.
I used to feel that was a noble goal. I don’t any more. I figure deductions/loopholes are a humane way to get people to do things they ought to do (at their best), and I also figure that we-the-people are within our rights to try to steer things to outcomes we want, so…
we’ll have to disagree on this. But I do get why people find the idea of eliminating loopholes/deductions appealing–it does seem rather elegant, I guess.
/drive-by
TaxPayer
August 17th, 2012
3:54 pm
Mitt will not even acknowledge his receipt of that South American blood money that he used to start up Bain Capital. Only a denier would trust him.
Steve Atl
August 17th, 2012
3:56 pm
I want to see Tim Geithner’s tax returns…you know….the Tax Czar.
Not that would be interesting.
Thulsa Doom
August 17th, 2012
3:56 pm
“At least you don’t have to vote for Cynthia McKinney this time.”
Can we do a write in candidacy for Miss McKinney. Stranger things have happened. Hell look at the former sheriff of Clayton county with 23 felony counts pending against him. He’s in a runoff with the current sheriff. Unbelievable.
Pat
August 17th, 2012
3:57 pm
You can bet your last dollar the IRS, at the direction of this administration, has gone over his taxes with a fine toothed comb to ensure his taxes are in order. You can also double down that Mitt’s tax accountant has done the same. If something was wrong, he would have been audited already. I for one believe he has paid his taxes, and given much more to various charities, that exceeds the percentage or amount any liberal has, or ever, will pay. This election needs to focus on the issues of the economy, jobs, medicare and what it means to be a proud American. Four areas Obama can’t discuss because he does not care about any one of them. I’ll take ideas over ideology for my next President.
Erwin's cat
August 17th, 2012
3:59 pm
TaxPayer @3:53
Last week I gave you the stage, the spotlight, and the microphone. All you had to do was prove your position while ignoring mine. I asked you to articulate your position in 3 sentences or less..all I got was links to and paragraphs from your penguin science page…
I gave you your chance…and you blew it!
Joe Hussein Mama
August 17th, 2012
3:59 pm
Towncrier — “I don’t believe Mormons are “required” to tithe 10% – just encouraged to do so. Otherwise, how do you explain Reid’s paltry charitable contributions (isn’t he also a Mormon)?”
They are required to do so in order to remain in good standing with the church. Also, the church can and will perform audits, though this usually only happens to wealthier Mormons or if the church believes that you’re holding out on them.
Noncompliance can be penalized in a number of ways, from loss of one’s Temple Recommend (essentially being banished from services and anything taking place inside the church) to outright excommunication.
My wife’s family are ex-Mormons, and the threat of an audit was a significant factor in their decision to leave the church.
Towncrier
August 17th, 2012
4:00 pm
From the DC:
“Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius told The Daily Caller that the Medicare reform plan put forth by Republican vice presidential nominee Rep. Paul Ryan is a “serious proposal” but President Obama has “made it clear” that it is not the right direction for the program.
In 2010, however, President Obama spoke highly of Ryan’s plan.
“I think Paul [Ryan], for example, the head of the Budget Committee, has looked at the budget and has made a serious proposal. I’ve read it. I can tell you what’s in it and there’s some ideas in there that I would agree with but there’s some ideas we should have a healthy debate about because I don’t agree with them. The major driver of our long-term liabilities, everybody here knows, is Medicare and Medicaid and our health care spending. Nothing comes close,” said President Obama at the GOP retreat on January 29, 2010.
Unfunded liabilities are benefits promised by the federal government to individuals through entitlement programs like Medicare.
“Medicare as you know is a $38 trillion unfunded liability, it has to be reformed for younger generations because it won’t exist because it’s going bankrupt and the premise of our idea is look, why not give people the same kind of health-care plan we have in Congress? That kind of reform proposal for Medicare,” Ryan — recently selected as Mitt Romney’s running mate — then said to Obama.
“Right, right,” Obama responded. “As I’ve said before, this is an entirely legitimate proposal.”
Newby
August 17th, 2012
4:00 pm
Pat,
Now, if Romney would only come up with some ideas. Currently, he’s criticizing the President for cutting government spending!
Pat
August 17th, 2012
4:01 pm
Taxpayer, lets talk about the money the Obama Justice Department took from the drug cartels in Mexico, gave them guns, and then were used to kill an American border patrol agent…….yeah, let’s have that discussion.
Thulsa Doom
August 17th, 2012
4:02 pm
“Yes, it is warmer. Not that a denier would acknowledge the obvious.”
Depends on what you use as a starting point for your data set. You can pick a year or set of years anywhere you want where the weather was hotter for several years and say that we are now in a cooling trend. So statistically its a silly and rather ridiculous argument seeing as how anyone can use a different data set to prove the earth is warming or cooling. I woulda figured that since you write so much on this that you would have figured this obvious flaw in your argument out by now.
Pat
August 17th, 2012
4:04 pm
Newby, actually the President’s plan is to put this country so far in debt that it crumbles. Obamacare, raiding Medicare, and an ever increase National Debt are how he is attempting to do it.
Towncrier
August 17th, 2012
4:05 pm
“They are required to do so in order to remain in good standing with the church. Also, the church can and will perform audits, though this usually only happens to wealthier Mormons or if the church believes that you’re holding out on them.”
I have not heard that. One of my best friends is a Mormon, but he hasn’t discussed this matter much with me. Tithing is an Old Testament command that, if still applicable, so must be all of the other codes. It is not a bad guideline but should not be binding upon anyone today who professes to be a Christian.
Bernie
August 17th, 2012
4:05 pm
Mitt, Just show us the ” CARFAX”….That all you have to do, If you want America to buy your used car of a campaign. if not, most will just Kick the Tires until decision time!
By then, it will be FAR TOO LATE!
Joe Hussein Mama
August 17th, 2012
4:10 pm
Towncrier — “I have not heard that. One of my best friends is a Mormon, but he hasn’t discussed this matter much with me.”
They’re not really *supposed* to talk about such things with outsiders. If you bring it up, he may or may not talk about it, but you would probably make him uncomfortable by doing that. I understand that the LDS church didn’t do a lot of public complaining about the “Big Love” series on HBO for exactly that reason; they didn’t want to spark public discussion of their precepts and practices. A couple of times during that show’s run (we watched most of the episodes), my wife went “holy sh1t” because she couldn’t believe how *closely* the show matched up with actual Mormon practice.
“Tithing is an Old Testament command that, if still applicable, so must be all of the other codes. It is not a bad guideline but should not be binding upon anyone today who professes to be a Christian.”
I *think* that promising to abide by the tithing requirements is part of the process for getting a Temple Recommend (which my wife refers to a a “Holy Hall Pass”).
Towncrier
August 17th, 2012
4:18 pm
I’m out. Have a pleasant weekend, all.
JamVet
August 17th, 2012
4:32 pm
Have fun voting for Obama.
You too, betty???
Oh my, this is disappointing…
RICH MAN
August 17th, 2012
4:37 pm
Hypocritical Media never questioned FDR’s wealth$$…JFK’s wealth…John Kerry’s wealth….It is only when a very successful Republican runs for president..is the old guard Media curious about the candidates wealth….Media don’t care about a democragt’s wealth.
Thulsa Doom
August 17th, 2012
4:40 pm
“The top 2% of taxpayers should pay 98% of the total of taxes paid in, and the bottom 98% should pay 2% of the total of taxes paid in.”
Well its a little refreshing to see from at least one lib that they just plain want to soak the top 2% while the other 98% pay little to nothing. Disturbing that people think that way. But refreshing to see one of em own up to it. I think I’ll have to adjust my expectations and hope to make it into the top 3% of earners as opposed to the top 2%. That way I’ll just squeeze under that arbitrary figure and avoid it. Cause at that 2% and above is where apparently libs think they have a right to screw people.
Welcome to the Occupation
August 17th, 2012
4:56 pm
Thulsa/Doggone: “The top 2% of taxpayers should pay 98% of the total of taxes paid in, and the bottom 98% should pay 2% of the total of taxes paid in.”
They need to be paying much, much more.
They should be paying upwards of 50% on cap gains, just for starters. And they need to be paying 90% on income above a reasonable amount (which could certainly be debated).
So what’s so hard to understand about this?
Doggone/GA
August 17th, 2012
4:56 pm
“Well its a little refreshing to see from at least one lib that they just plain want to soak the top 2% while the other 98% pay little to nothing”
I see that your “irony meter” isn’t as good as you claim it to be.
Doggone/GA
August 17th, 2012
5:03 pm
“So what’s so hard to understand about this?”
I said @% of the taxes PAID IN, not 2% of their income
Doggone/GA
August 17th, 2012
5:04 pm
oops! 2% not @% !!
DLink
August 17th, 2012
5:05 pm
I read the arguments follow all the links and balance many things. I subscribe to the ideology of helping out my neighbor, as one day I may need help. I have yet to see anything convincing that I would see Romney as a neighbor who would do something for me in return for my help.
I try to imagine him pulling off the road to help a stranded motorist. Try imagining that. I can imagine Obama sending someone from his detail off after noticing a motorist in obvious distress. I can’t imagine Romney noticing a person in a broke down Pinto on the side of the road, much less doing anything about it.
I remember the guy in the truck who pulled over and helped haul my motorcycle back to my house when I had problems on the side of the expressway. That’s the guy I want to see in the Whitehouse. As for the voting scandal, forget the ID’s. Use purple ink/dye like they do in countries that don’t trust their government. If you’re here, vote. 1 time.
I don’t care much at all for the felons can’t vote thing either. Maybe they have more reason to vote than anyone in the country. BTW GA doing the two step with an picture ID required, and then later requiring a birth certificate and residential billing info and all else? I should just bring my birth certificate long form and yadayadayada to the polls. I’m voting all those people out of office. My military drivers license is good for 15yrs.
Welcome to the Occupation
August 17th, 2012
5:16 pm
Doggone: I understand that, but I’m saying that focusing on the size of the “pie” is wrong. Are we not in agreement here?
I do disagree with you about a straight percentage. I think multiple variables have to be considered – one of them being avoiding excessive accumulation of wealth.
Doggone/GA
August 17th, 2012
5:18 pm
“I do disagree with you about a straight percentage.”
Don’t take what I use as an example of a point to be what I believe the tax system OUGHT to be. My own personal opinion of it might curl your hair.
Welcome to the Occupation
August 17th, 2012
5:24 pm
Doggone: Curl away!
Joe Hussein Mama
August 17th, 2012
5:26 pm
Doggone — “I see that your “irony meter” isn’t as good as you claim it to be.”
‘Only kidding’ and ‘just joking’ are only applicable when cons use them, I think.
Doggone/GA
August 17th, 2012
5:36 pm
“Doggone: Curl away!”
Ok, you asked for it! Starting from the fact that ALL taxes are ultimately paid by the retail buyer…I think we should do away with ALL income based taxes. Corporate and personaly. Then we should have a progressive sales tax. In spending bands, the higher the amount on your ticket at the time of the sale, the higher your tax rate.
Just as examples:
Sales receipt = $.01 to $10,000 – tax rate on the purchase is 5%
Sales receipt = $11,000 to $20,000 – tax rate on the purchase is 8%
Sales receipt = $20,000+ to $100,000 – tax rate on the purchase is 10%
Sales receipt = $100,000+ to $500,000 – tax rate on the purchase is 15%
Sales receipt = $500,000+ to $1,000,000 – tax rate on the purchase is 20%
Sales receipt = $1,000,000+ to $5,000,000 – tax rate on the purchase is 25%
Sales receipt = $5,000,000+ to infinity – tax rate on the purchase is 30%
This just a rough idea. Things like food (for example) could still be excluded to keep from adversely impacting those lowest on the economic scale.
I come at this as much as, or more, from a philosophic point of view. But the practical aspects would be higher amounts in everyone’s paycheck, lower costs for businesses – because they would not have to pay taxes at the wholesale level and more money to be spent, which would help the economy.
Doggone/GA
August 17th, 2012
5:37 pm
‘Only kidding’ and ‘just joking’ are only applicable when cons use them, I think.
Yeah, well I’m sure THEY think so…but it sure was fun to throw it back for a change, especially after last night.
Doggone/GA
August 17th, 2012
5:38 pm
Sorry! Tried to do that in too much of a hurry! This: ” think we should do away with ALL income based taxes” should be “all taxes” not just income based taxes
Tricksters
August 17th, 2012
5:40 pm
Person A makes 1M and because like Romney it comes from investments, he pays 16% which equals 160k
Person B makes 70k and pays a rate of 22% which is 15.4k
The “trickle down your back” crowd does not like to talk about the individual rates so much. They like to take it to the macro level because it appears to bolster their argument and they do not like to talk about the percentage and burden of the middle class.
They take the total paid of person A & B: 175400. Then take the % of what person A made to show how they carry the load for everybody.
160000 / 175400 = .91
So they tout the 91% of the total but try to stay away from the percentage of the indivdual. All the math is correct, but they like the macro version because it makes the “trickle down your back” crowd and their water carriers look better by using the higher percentage.
Of course change when the entire country is included but the math trick is the same.
Doggone/GA
August 17th, 2012
5:44 pm
“The “trickle down your back” crowd”
What they don’t want to look at is this: After taxes, for EACH DOLLAR – your person A has 84 cents to spend, and your person be has 78 cents to spend.
Doggone/GA
August 17th, 2012
5:45 pm
Oh yeah, and I forgot: your person B has a LOT MORE of those dollars to spend too.
Trickster
August 17th, 2012
5:53 pm
Doggone
Person A is the one with the most to spend. B has a higher burden.
That’s why the “trickle” crowd likes to accentuate the 91% of the total paid in. You can see them get angry on this blog when the individual rates are brought up.
The irony, they say they are for the individual and it is the left who likes to group people.
They can’t group those numbers and sell that percentage fast enough
That Black Guy
August 17th, 2012
5:56 pm
DLink
August 17th, 2012
5:05 pm
I read the arguments follow all the links and balance many things. I subscribe to the ideology of helping out my neighbor, as one day I may need help. I have yet to see anything convincing that I would see Romney as a neighbor who would do something for me in return for my help.
________________________________________________________________
Nah, Romney would NEVER help another person
“In July 1996, the 14-year-old daughter of Robert Gay, a partner at Bain Capital, had disappeared,” the story reads. “She had attended a rave party in New York City and gotten high on ecstasy. Three days later, her distraught father had no idea where she was. Romney took immediate action. He closed down the entire firm and asked all 30 partners and employees to fly to New York to help find Gay’s daughter. Romney set up a command center at the LaGuardia Marriott and hired a private detective firm to assist with the search. He established a toll-free number for tips, coordinating the effort with the NYPD”
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jan/30/chain-email/viral-internet-story-says-mitt-romney-helped-locat/
Welcome to the Occupation
August 17th, 2012
5:58 pm
Doggone: should be “all taxes” not just income based taxes
Seems to me that there would be enormous problems of practicality in any such purchase-based scheme. And if you don’t have a system that goes ahead and bases itself on income from the outset then how will adjustments later be made without throwing the whole thing out of kilter? Either income has to be central to the taxation system, in which case you simply tax on that basis, or not, in which case we throw the whole thing out and go with flat taxes. But if we go with the latter, then you sever any tie between wealth and social responsibility – or you sever what remains of one as this link has been under relentless assault for decades and is already greatly weakened, hence the calls for such flat tax schemes as what you suggest.
Trickster
August 17th, 2012
6:04 pm
Doggone and Welcome
It is a progressive tax structure to a point then it starts to become regressive with capital gains. Those with more money invested in areas that fall under the “capital gains” tax and not income, reap those rewards and their burden goes down, down, down.
It is the law and that’s what we are working with. I’m not for taxing someone out of existence, but investment or no investment someone making a million should at least have the same burden as the man making 60, 70k. And I don’t care what they want to call it income, capital gains, etc.
That Black Guy
August 17th, 2012
6:06 pm
DLink
August 17th, 2012
5:05 pm
I try to imagine him pulling off the road to help a stranded motorist. Try imagining that. I can imagine Obama sending someone from his detail off after noticing a motorist in obvious distress. I can’t imagine Romney noticing a person in a broke down Pinto on the side of the road, much less doing anything about it.
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Nah, Romney helps NO ONE.
”
Somebody (a Republican) did end up giving Henrietta Hughes a place to live, but the most recent story I can find on her is from Apr. ’09, and she was still struggling and was in danger of losing that home. Not sure whatever happened to her. The point is that she asked Obama for help, and he made her one of his many, many promises. In the Era of Obama, his promises are considered accomplishments in and of themselves, so he was hailed for his compassion. It was a heartwarming story, we were told, and anybody who had anything critical to say about it was a horrible person and of course a racist.
Fast-forward almost three years. Fox News:
As a candidate who has raised tens of millions of dollars during his presidential campaign, Mitt Romney did something unusual Saturday while shaking hands after an event in Sumter, South Carolina. He opened his wallet and handed unemployed Ruth Williams some cash. Williams would not say how much money Romney gave her but campaign aides say it was between $50 – 60″ (cue the “he’s a millionare and that’s ALL he gave her? (while the ignore that Obama gave her $0 and he’s a millionare as well))
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/01/16/romney-condemned-for-helping-the-poor/#ixzz23qN01hua
That Black Guy
August 17th, 2012
6:09 pm
DLink
August 17th, 2012
5:05 pm
I remember the guy in the truck who pulled over and helped haul my motorcycle back to my house when I had problems on the side of the expressway. That’s the guy I want to see in the Whitehouse. As for the voting scandal, forget the ID’s. Use purple ink/dye like they do in countries that don’t trust their government. If you’re here, vote. 1 time.
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How about the guy who shut down his business and sent ALL his employees the the heighboring state to look for YOUR missing daughter.
Would you want someone like THAT in the Whitehouse?
Z
August 17th, 2012
6:09 pm
Whether what Romney has done with his taxes is legal is not the problem. The problem is, is he paying his fair share compared to the rest of American’s? By hiding his wealth offshore and not being able to see his taxes returns we don’t know if he and many others are paying their fair share of Taxes. Just because those in our government passed policy’s favoring themselves and the rich, doesn’t make it right!
Trickster
August 17th, 2012
6:16 pm
Z
Romney is just the whipping boy at the moment. There is a more systemic issue that was caused by both parties. Congress has passed enough tax loopholes and such in the name of “risk” and “investment” that allows Romney to do what he has done.
Romney is one of many that are doing it. Wealthy Dem and Repub both take advantage of the same laws
That Black Guy
August 17th, 2012
6:19 pm
DLink, how about someone who sells their house to a couple that could not qualify for a conventional mortgage. And at a loss to the seller. Would you want someone like THAT in the Whitehouse?
“The renters were offered the first chance to buy, but the Stampses could not qualify for a mortgage, recalled Mr. Stamps, who at the time had recently lost his job at an oil company.
“Then I got this phone call, personally, from Mr. Romney, asking if we really wanted to buy the house,” Mr. Stamps, 63, said in an interview the other day at the barbershop he now runs. “I said, yes we did. And he said he would loan us the money. He really helped us when we needed it.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/10/us/politics/in-real-estate-deal-romney-made-his-loss-a-couples-gain.html?pagewanted=all
That Black Guy
August 17th, 2012
6:21 pm
I’ll repost this:
My take on the “release them/don’t release them” kurfluffle is:
1. If he releases them and there is nothing there (no illegal activity, no “amnesty” benefit), it will not change the mind of anyone that has already decided NOT to vote for him. I seriously doubt anyone in that group, after seeing the returns, will suddenly say “Well, I was going to vote for Obama, but since the returns are clean, I’m on the Romney train”. Those people want to see them, hoping there is something in them so they can say “See!!!! I told you Romney is a ____________”.
2. If he releases them and they are on the up and up, the focus will then turn to HOW rich he is and what LEGAL deductions he took. Look how much mililage the “ZOMG HE TOOK A $77,000 DEDUCTION FOR A HOBBIE HORZE UUUURRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHRRRRRHHH!!!!!!”, without digging much further than that to see the Romney’s only realized a $49 savings from the horse.
3. Honestly, how many voters are savy enough to understand the complex paperwork associated with filing tax returns for a multimillionare? There are people that struggle with the 1040EZ form. That leads to people being TOLD what the different items in the returns mean from sources with an agenda. That is how you get the above mentioned poutrage (ZOMG HE TOOK A $77,000 DEDUCTION FOR A HOBBIE HORZE UUUURRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHRRRRRHHH!!!).
4. I actually think there is something in his returns dealing with the 2009 amnesty and that would be “all she wrote”, but I could be wrong.
5. He’s not going to win, he knows it, so why release them.
just my .03 (it was .02 but I got a raise, daymn Obama economy)
Tex
August 17th, 2012
6:21 pm
If I don’t hear it from Rush, Hannity, Beck or FNC, then it didn’t happen. Everyone else is out to get republicans! It’s an all out war on republicans!!
Welcome to the Occupation
August 17th, 2012
6:23 pm
Trickster: “Those with more money invested in areas that fall under the “capital gains” tax and not income,”
Right, one of them being profits from trades by hedge fund managers and investors in private equity, Mitt Romney’s area.
That Black Guy
August 17th, 2012
6:23 pm
Doggone, I really like your tax idea.
Eva Angelina
August 17th, 2012
6:26 pm
I can’t stand people trying to shove things down my throat. Enough about Mitt’s taxes already.
Welcome to the Occupation
August 17th, 2012
6:29 pm
I can’t stand people trying to shove things down my throat. Enough about Mitt’s taxes already.
Shoving down your throat? The guy is running for president and has now added as his VP pick the person with some of the most extreme budget plans ever seen in Washington, plans that if they ever passed would likely result in the most dramatic redistribution of wealth upwards to the very wealthiest people we’ve ever seen in this country.
I think THAT is what is getting “shoved down” our throats.
Doggone/GA
August 17th, 2012
6:30 pm
“Doggone, I really like your tax idea”
Thanks. I have no idea if it’s really even workable or not, but as I said I come at it from the point of view that ULTIMATELY all taxes are paid by the retail buyer anyway.
Trickster
August 17th, 2012
6:30 pm
Eva
And you were made to read this article and the comment section?
You must be pretty weak minded that you would be so upset yet read it all anyway.
Call the police immediately if you are under duress.
Paul
August 17th, 2012
6:47 pm
Towncrier 3:41
I don’t believe Mormons are “required” to tithe 10% – just encouraged to do so. Otherwise, how do you explain Reid’s paltry charitable contributions (isn’t he also a Mormon)?”
Do you have a source for Reid’s contributions? As I could not find one.
Joe Hussein Mama
“They are required to do so in order to remain in good standing with the church. Also, the church can and will perform audits, though this usually only happens to wealthier Mormons or if the church believes that you’re holding out on them.”
Your life lived in a bizarro congregation, then. I find it difficult to believe the audit stories, let alone the excommunication. Look at the LDS website – that is NOT listed as an excommunicable offense, along with being convicted of a felony, child or spousal abuse or such. In fact, LDS say how one computes a tithe is a private matter between the person and God, so unless God is doing the audit….
Paul
August 17th, 2012
6:48 pm
Sorry, JHM, that’s ‘wife’ not ‘life’ -
F. Sinkwich
August 17th, 2012
6:53 pm
We now interrupt this musical interlude for a sad fact from the AP:
“Washington — Unemployment rates rose in 44 U.S. states in July, the most states to show a monthly increase in more than three years and a reflection of weak hiring nationwide.”
O’bozo issued a statement that at least 13 states were not as bad off.
Vice President Biden issued a statement saying he was as frustrated by this as a midget with a yo-yo.
We now return you to regular programming…
Welcome to the Occupation
August 17th, 2012
7:03 pm
Sinkwich: ““Washington — Unemployment rates rose in 44 U.S. states in July, the most states to show a monthly increase in more than three years and a reflection of weak hiring nationwide.”
Last vapors of the stimulus burning out.
Doggone/GA
August 17th, 2012
7:09 pm
“a reflection of weak hiring nationwide”
Yeah, well…that’s what happens when people don’t have jobs, don’t have money to spend…and businesses don’t hire.
Joel Edge
August 18th, 2012
7:22 am
“Millions and millions of less-affluent Americans pay Uncle Sam a lot bigger share of their income than did Romney, and they have every reason to wonder why that might be.”
No really, Jay. Because that’s the way the tax code is set up. Thirteen percent sounds like capital gains tax. If you envy others or are trying to score some political gotcha points, then I can understand your concern.
Bobby Goren
August 18th, 2012
9:30 am
Let’s take Mitt at face value – which I think people would be chumps to do because there are too many ways for the 13% to be true in a narrow, “meaning of is” sense but not what any reasonable person would consider accurate. Still, let’s ass-u-me it’s 13%.
According to the IRS, the effective tax rate for the middle quintile (40-60th percentile) was 14.3% in 2007. Given the 14.3% is an average, this suggests that Mitt has a lower tax rate than about half the country. At the median, these are people who make just north of $30,000 or about 0.15% of what Mr. Romney does.
And Mitt’s comment about charitable giving boosting his rate over 20% is a red-herring. First, it’s irrelevant as all that giving is tax deductible and cannot be counted if we’re to make apples-to-apples comparisons of tax rates. Second, Mr. Romney belongs to a church that mandates a 10% minimum contribution to be a member in good standing. Personally, I don’t put much weight on such giving. I would rather Mr. Romney pay more in taxes and let democratically elected leaders determine how best to spend it than sending it to Salt Lake for LDS elders to decide. In the interest of fairness, this goes for all religious giving, much of which goes to infrastructure, personnel and investments – depending on the denomination.
Moderate Lin
August 18th, 2012
9:42 am
Bobby Goren
August 18th, 2012
9:30 am
Let’s take Mitt at face value – which I think people would be chumps to do because there are too many ways for the 13% to be true in a narrow, “meaning of is” sense but not what any reasonable person would consider accurate. Still, let’s ass-u-me it’s 13%.
According to the IRS, the effective tax rate for the middle quintile (40-60th percentile) was 14.3% in 2007.
+++++
Poltifact has said this is a half-true. Taxes withiout payroll taxes:
Bottom fifth of earners: -12.3 percent
Second-to-bottom fifth: -4.2 percent
Middle fifth: 4.1 percent
Second-highest fifth: 8.2 percent
Highest fifth: 17.3 percent
Taxes with Payroll taxes:
Bottom fifth of earners: 1 percent
Second-to-bottom fifth: 7.8 percent
Middle fifth: 15.5 percent
Second-highest fifth: 18.7 percent
Highest fifth: 24.3 percent
Moderate Lin
August 18th, 2012
9:47 am
Moderate Lin
August 18th, 2012
9:42 am
Bobby Goren
August 18th, 2012
9:30 am
Let’s take Mitt at face value – which I think people would be chumps to do because there are too many ways for the 13% to be true in a narrow, “meaning of is” sense but not what any reasonable person would consider accurate. Still, let’s ass-u-me it’s 13%.
According to the IRS, the effective tax rate for the middle quintile (40-60th percentile) was 14.3% in 2007.
+++++
Keep in mind you have to include these figures include payroll taxes paid by the employer. Not those actually paid by the taxpayer.
Moderate Lin
August 18th, 2012
9:48 am
Moderate Lin
August 18th, 2012
9:47 am
Moderate Lin
August 18th, 2012
9:42 am.
+++++
Correction they include both employer and employee contribution to payroll taxes/
JKL2
August 18th, 2012
10:36 am
What happens when you realize your Demwit talking point is a lie?
madcow gets slapped with reality: http://townhall.com/video/epic-national-reviews-richy-lowry-takes-down-rachel-maddow-on-medicare
JKL2
August 18th, 2012
10:41 am
DNC stuck on stupid:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/08/14/DNC-Chair-Wasserman-Schultz-Demolished-by-CNN-s-Wolf-Blitzer
Welcome to the Occupation
August 18th, 2012
10:59 am
Remember folks, if you’re not in the CEO class, you’ll be thankful for the exploitation you’ve got thank you very much.
Caterpillar, of Joliet, IL, which has seen profits at record levels of just under $5bil, gives its CEO a 60% raise, to $16.9M, and proceeds to freeze wages for 6 yrs over a wide swath of its workforce and jacks way up their out-of-pocket payments for health care.
Is THIS the global capitalism you want to defend, cons?
Is this a global capitalist system your Jesus could get behind, Scout?
deegee
August 18th, 2012
11:29 am
Let’s just take the social engineering out of the tax code. I’m no economist but I would bet that a progressive income tax with no deductions starting at .5% and topping out at 10% would fill the coffers to the brim. Everyone that earns an income would pay something. No one would get a refund. It will never fly because our corrupt elected officials would lose a substantial amount of income from lobbyists, but if we are serious about tax reform, let’s consider it.
Welcome to the Occupation
August 18th, 2012
12:29 pm
deegee: “Let’s just take the social engineering out of the tax code”
Tough, when social engineering is the very raison d’etre of the tax code.
gm
August 18th, 2012
3:01 pm
Could you imagine if Obama had of told the America people just take my word for it, sum bags like Hannity, Rush will have been running around the clock negative spew against him, but its ok for Mitt to stand up in front of poor whites, middle class people and tell them you have more concerns.
This tycoon will not relase his taxes because it shows all the money he has made at the expense of middle class America, and points out the out source of jobs, how can you stand in front of poor, middle class whites with a straight face and tell them you are going to fight for them when you have billions, this generation of rep have to be far the the dumbest ever”””’
JKL2
August 18th, 2012
4:21 pm
welcome- Caterpillar, of Joliet, IL, which has seen profits at record levels of just under $5bil, gives its CEO a 60% raise, to $16.9M, and proceeds to freeze wages for 6 yrs over a wide swath of its workforce and jacks way up their out-of-pocket payments for health care
Cat is in peoria not joliet. Cry me a river over freezing wages onthose poor employees making only $28/hr and getting every benefit under the sun.
The CEO pay might be out of whack, but the union has nobody but themselves to blame for most of their problems.
JKL2
August 18th, 2012
4:35 pm
gm- This tycoon will not relase his taxes
too easy: http://www.mittromney.com/learn/mitt/tax-return/main
When is Mr Transparency going to release his college transcripts? What does he have to hide?
Loved Michelle’s essay on how women and minorities aren’t able to debate on a level playing field because they don’t have the mental capacity. Very inspiring for the welfare class.
gm
August 18th, 2012
7:17 pm
Hi I am a right wing idiot, I am between the age of 40-55 and have paid thousands of dollars into medicaid, I am going to vote for the two rich guys who are going to give me a vocher when I reach 67, and have to pay the rest out of my pockets.
Even though I have paid thousands in the system, I rather vote for the two rich white guys especially the one on top of the ticket who has ship thousands of Americian jobs overseas, but stands in front of me and says he wants to bring jobs back, ha, ha, I vote against my interest every time because I been taught by Rush,Hannity who are millionares and they really care about me.
Rep poor, middle class are the joke around the world”””””’
JKL2
August 18th, 2012
8:30 pm
H! iI am a left wing idiot, I am between the age of 40-55 and have paid thousands of dollars into medicaid, I am going to vote for the clueless rich black guy who is bankrupting our country. Since they shifted $741 BIILLION from medicare into obamacare, the whole medicare system is going to collapse. I won’t see a dime of my investment. It could be restructured to last, but I am totally against that because a white Republican suggested it.
Even though I have paid thousands into the system, I rather vote for the rich black guy who stands in front of me and says he wants to creat jobs but is too busy golfing and campaigning to actually do anything. His only p[lan is not to come up with a plan, because then everyone so could what a crappy leader he actually is. It could happen, but not during an election year.
I vote against my interest every time because I’ve been taught the government knows what’s best for me. I know it’s true because someone called Harry Reid and told him it was.
Vote obama: You were dumb enough to fall for it last time!