Is Louisiana the future of Georgia’s education system?

If you want to see where Georgia conservatives want to take education in this state, look five hundred miles west to Louisiana, where Gov. Bobby Jindal is implementing a voucher program intended to move hundreds of thousands of students out of public schools and into privately run schools at taxpayer expense.

Louisiana officials have made it clear that they do not intend to impose teacher standards on those schools. Students attending voucher schools will be immune to the high-stakes testing that is required in the state’s public schools. In addition, the state will not sit in judgment of what the schools teach or how they teach it.

John White, Louisiana’s school superintendent, has told the press that it should be up to parents, not the state, to gauge whether private schools are delivering a quality education. “To me, it’s a moral outrage that the government would say, ‘We know what’s best for your child,’” White said. “Who are we to tell parents we know better?”

That “who are we to judge?” question is critically important. When fully implemented, the Louisiana program has the potential to shift well over a billion dollars a year in taxpayer money out of the public system into the hands of private for-profit and non-profit schools. Surely that gives state officials not just the right but the obligation to ensure that the money is well-spent and delivers quality education. But that’s counter to the philosophy driving the school voucher movement.

The program was signed into law by Jindal in April and takes effect immediately. The result has been an educational gold rush. For example, Reuters reports that New Living Word, the school offering the most open slots to voucher students, “has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in barebones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition.”

science:ace

Part of the first-grade "science" class offered by Accelerated Christian Education, a curriculum that the taxpayers of Louisiana will soon be supporting through their public tax dollars.

That’s not at all unusual. Almost all of the 125 private schools that have applied to accept voucher students in the 2012-13 school year are religious-based. Many teach creationism as science, some using curriculum provided through Accelerated Christian Education, an education ministry. Under its system, ACE boasts, “the school is not considered an arm of the church. It is the church in action.”

ACE’s first-grade curriculum, for example, teaches as science that God created the Earth in six days, that on Day One he divided the light from the darkness and on Day Six made man and other living creatures.

As another example of how intertwined church and state become, the Islamic School of Greater New Orleans initially indicated that it too would participate in the voucher program, but later withdrew after a political outcry. As state Rep. Valarie Hodges, R-Watson, explained, vouchers are supposed to finance “teaching the fundamentals of America’s Founding Fathers’ religion,” but “we need to ensure that it does not open the door to fund radical Islam schools…. I do not support using public funds for teaching Islam anywhere here in Louisiana.”

This is the type of program that voucher proponents in Georgia hope to emulate. Last week, for example, Senate Majority Leader Chip Rogers acknowledged that if he had his way, such programs would have been implemented “yesterday,” specifically citing Louisiana as a model. But until full-blown implementation is possible, Rogers and others pursue half steps, such as the proposed constitutional amendment on the ballot this November giving the state the power to create charter schools over the protest of local districts.

It is also consistent with proposals from GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney, who advocates turning federal aid for schools into individual grants “so that eligible students can choose which school to attend and bring funding with them.” Interestingly, the Romney plan avoids the term “vouchers”, although that is clearly how such grants would function.

That’s in keeping with the stealthy, incremental process by which this goal is being pursued.

– Jay Bookman

560 comments Add your comment

They BOTH suck

July 18th, 2012
11:00 am

Scout

I’m not either defending or decrying it. It is what it is.

Union

July 18th, 2012
11:00 am

Statewide Unions

Georgia Association of Educators
Total Revenue: $ 9,102,705
Source: Data obtained from the Internal Revenue Service’s Master Data File 2008-2009.

Other Unions
Name City Total Revenue Tax Period
Georgia Association Of Educators Tucker $ 9,102,705 2007
Atlanta Federation Of Teachers Aft Atlantic $ 891,200 2008
American Federation Of Teachers Savannah $ 694,921 2008
Source: Data obtained from the Internal Revenue Service’s Master Data File 2008-2009.

0311/8541/5811/1811/1801

July 18th, 2012
11:01 am

“Are you suggesting that the teachers in question should not have representation as they go through the due process system?”

Let them buy a liability policy at their own expense just like I did.

Joe Hussein Mama

July 18th, 2012
11:01 am

0311 — “Good ……….. I didn’t in my 34 year law enforcement career either nor should I have.”

I respectfully disagree (I think you should have had the *option* to have them or not), but we needn’t make that a point of contention.

0311/8541/5811/1811/1801

July 18th, 2012
11:01 am

They BOTH suck:

I hear you.

Joe Hussein Mama

July 18th, 2012
11:03 am

JWA77 — “A child sent to private school or home schooled puts no tax burden on the public. This is why I think the parents of these kids should just be reimbursed for whatever taxes they paid for public schools.”

I utterly reject this argument.

If property owners in a district have to pay taxes for the upkeep of schools, then ALL of them should pay. If some family with a kid is getting a tax break because they’re not sending a kid to the local public schools, then I want tax breaks for the three dozen kids I don’t have that I’m not sending to public schools.

0311/8541/5811/1811/1801

July 18th, 2012
11:03 am

Joe Hussein Mama:

I disagree. Next the military will want a collective bargaining unit.

We already have one ………… the American people through their elected representatives.

If you don’t want the job based on that ……………… DON’T APPLY.

kitty

July 18th, 2012
11:04 am

I think in Islam they call the sort of schools you described Madrassas. The Christian Taliban is strong here in the South, isn’t it? This place is friggin’ nuts.

HOT AIR

July 18th, 2012
11:04 am

the cat – I don’t teach. Gave it up when my public school superintendent told me I had to pass the local basketball star even if he didn’t attend class. He threatened to fire me. When I saw the kid playing ball on the play ground while he was supposed to be in my class taking a test, I gave him an “F”. Then I gave my notice to resign at the end of the year.

Joe Hussein Mama

July 18th, 2012
11:05 am

Brosephus — “After reading that, I just had to share this one here.”

Tail and engines! Cute! :D

My wife would like that, but there’s a Hello Kitty mini running around that she wants worse. :D

Erwin's cat

July 18th, 2012
11:05 am

A question..or more accurately… 75% of private schools in about half the parishes reviewed are religious. I would think, but I don’t know, that most schools….

Mick

July 18th, 2012
11:06 am

Christian schools? Yes. Muslim schools? Hell no!! Hypocrisy and the constitution? Throw it under the bus! The devolution of america is sad…

Brosephus™

July 18th, 2012
11:06 am

Union

The same question applies to you as it did to HOT AIR…

What is union representation when there is no collective bargaining agreement to enforce? Unions have chapters in all 50 states, but that doesn’t mean they get to negotiate on employees behalfs in all 50 states. If you have proof otherwise, then feel free to post it.

Union

July 18th, 2012
11:07 am

kitty
July 18th, 2012
11:04 am

I think in Islam they call the sort of schools you described Madrassas. The Christian Taliban is strong here in the South, isn’t it? This place is friggin’ nuts.

awww.. thats special.. a lib smacking down on people for religious beliefs..

Mary Elizabeth

July 18th, 2012
11:08 am

I just posted the following on Maureen Downey’ blog. I am reposting my words here:
=========================================================

“It is amazing to me that people cannot see the ‘forest for the trees,’ or perhaps they simply do not wish to see the profound effects of what has been happening in our nation, especially in the last dozen years, and especially within public education. Here is what has been happening in depth, as I see it.

(1) This nation had a national surplus in 2000.

(2) In 2008, this nation was on the brink of a national Depression greater than the Great Depression of the 1930s.

(3) The Obama administration pulled this nation from that brink of financial disaster.

(4) The dismantling of public schools has been a major target of those ideological Republicans who wish to dismantle the public domain in general, including Social Security as Medicare, as well as public education.

(5) The public domain, at its best, works for the common good of all citizens, without a profit motive for the few.

(6) Private sector jobs have grown, each quarter, under Obama. Public sector jobs, including those of teachers, on the other hand, have been cut severely within the states, especially within Republican led states.

(7) The Stimulus money, obviously, was designed to save many teaching positions within states who wished to dismantle public education.

(8) There is a profound ideological battle being waged in this nation, and it has gained momentum – deliberately created – within the last decade.

(9) Shame on citizens who will not call what has been happening, destructively, to our nation for what it is – and who will not support public education in this monumental ideological battle of what our nation has been about in the past – and what our nation’s destiny will be. We will either continue to be a nation “of, by, and for the people” into the future, or we will not be that kind of nation any longer. Remember, the public domain was designed to SERVE the public’s good. The people, themselves ARE the public, and the people ARE the government – their government.”
=================================================

Good day.

HOT AIR

July 18th, 2012
11:08 am

They Both
Suck – I never said they had collective bargaining power. I did not even bring that up. I said they were a member of the AFLCIO and the union hired lawyers to defend the teachers fired in the cheating scandal in Georgia. Others took it beyond what I said. I do not oppose unions in the private sector but do oppose them in the public sector. So actually Ead and I do agree on something.

JWA77

July 18th, 2012
11:09 am

Aquagirl, hoe bout more liek the parents get back what they paid in.

East Lake, those are services the government is required to produce. After all a government is to protect and serve it’s citizens.

Jay, that is correct. Services that aren’t used should be reimbursed. Like any other consumed good, you pay for what you use or get.

Butch Cassidy (I)

July 18th, 2012
11:10 am

For all you whining about Obama,socialism and government intrusion into private businesses, here’s an example of what that REALLY looks like:

New Labor Law in Venezuela Shortens Workweek and Increases Social Benefits

By Susan R. Heylman

A new labor code in Venezuela shortens the normal workweek, increases minimum vacation provisions, increases the duration of maternity leave, and requires employers to provide certain social benefits. President Hugo Chavez signed the bill into law on May 1, 2012, and it took effect on May 7. Highlights of the new labor code include:

Work and Rest Days

The workweek is reduced from 44 to 40 hours, and employees now have the right to two continuous rest days off. Night shifts are limited to 35 hours per week and seven hours per day. The new labor code bans outsourcing or subcontracting of work and requires employers to transfer outsourced employees to the beneficiary company within three years. During the transfer period, the employees are protected against termination and keep the same employment conditions and benefits.

Vacation Bonuses

The new code increases the statutory vacation bonus to 15 days’ pay plus one additional day of pay for each year of service, up to a maximum of 30 days. The law previously was a bonus of 7 days up to a maximum of 21 days. The minimum payment for year-end bonuses increased from 15 to 30 days of salary.

Maternity Leave

The labor code now provides for 26 weeks of maternity leave, including six weeks before the birth and 20 weeks after the birth, which reflects an increase from the previous 12 weeks that were provided after the birth. Mothers of newborns are now protected against termination for a period of two years after the birth of their child, up from one year. Parents of adopted children also are protected against termination for two years.

If the employer does not have a breastfeeding area in the workplace, nursing mothers must have two rest periods during the day of an hour and a half each.

Social Benefits

The law changes the seniority premium benefit from a defined contribution to a defined benefit plan. Upon termination of employment for any reason, the new benefit is computed based on 30 days of the employee’s final salary per year of service, beginning as of 1997. The employer must pay the social benefits within five days following the end of employment.

Employers may accrue the funding for this benefit on their accounting records or may fund it either in a trust fund set up in a bank or with the National Social Benefits Fund.

Employees who work under an employment contract for a period of employment of less than three months are entitled to receive social benefits calculated at five days of salary per month of employment. In cases of unfair dismissal, employers must pay an additional benefit equal to 30 days of pay per year of service.

Jimmy62

July 18th, 2012
11:12 am

While I can’t say that teaching fundamentalism in grade school is a good thing, trying new things could be. Jay seems to want us to continue on the same path with no diversion, despite education standards being on a continual downturn ever since the federal Dept. of Education was created. Throwing more money hasn’t worked, pandering to teacher’s unions hasn’t worked. So why not try something new? And if it means there will be a lot of fools in Louisiana who will have a hard time getting good jobs later in life… Well that’s already true today, so what? At least there might be something new and wonderful coming out of it, too.

I read today about a stackable credentials program being created with the University of Pheonix and a number of industries. It’s a combination of actual work and school work that will be like earning a bachelor’s degree, except you won’t get it without actually learning stuff that will be useful… Quite unlike a lot of bachelor’s degrees today.

Joe Hussein Mama

July 18th, 2012
11:14 am

H. Air — “You threw in the Georgia Union part not me.”

You need to pay closer attention to what you post. See me after class.

“Honey – Teacher’s unions are nation wide, including Georgia. I have a teachers certificate and should know.”

http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2012/07/18/is-louisiana-the-future-of-georgias-education-system/?cp=5#comment-1016670

“I never said they had collective bargaining power.”

You said they were a union. That’s a characteristic of a union.

“I was talking about the AFLCIO hiring lawyers to defend teachers in the cheating scandal in Georgia.”

Then pull your head out of your third point of contact and complain about the AFLCIO, not the nonexistent Georgia Teachers’ Union that apparently has you so flustered. :roll:

“The GFTA is a member of the AFLCIO ( a nationwide union). That is all I said.”

Review your post above. FYI, I’m just about done with you.

“I NEVER said they had collective bargaining power.”

You didn’t need to. You asserted there was a GA teachers’ union. Demonstrably, there is no such thing.

“I just said they are a dues paying member of the AFLCIO.”

You said that too, but I haven’t disputed that.

“You decided to take this beyond what I said. It’s in writing – don’t put words in my mouth.”

If you don’t know what a union is or does or how they function, then maybe you shouldn’t be shooting your mouth off about them. For someone who so arrogantly presumes to “know” because they have a GA teacher’s certificate, you certainly seem ignorant on the topic of how unions work and what they do.

Yes, it certainly IS in writing — you asserting that there’s a GA teachers’ union. Thanks for the assist! (laughing) :D

“Are you a member of TTP? The Thought Police.”

Nope. Just someone who’s debunking your mistaken assertions regarding a Georgia teachers’ union.

Mick

July 18th, 2012
11:15 am

Mary Eliz

Right on!!! Just got this stat from my meeting here in san diego; the top ten technology jobs needed in 2012 were not even in existence in 2004!! Major retirements loom, we need another sputnik moment!!!!

Joe Hussein Mama

July 18th, 2012
11:16 am

Union — “what “we” is this your are speaking of? .. taxpayers?”

The assertion was made that liberals/Democrats are against school choice. I pointed out that that was a misrepresentation.

HOT AIR

July 18th, 2012
11:16 am

Brosephus – Read above….. I wasn’t talking about collective bargaining power in Georgia. Since I was a certified teacher I know Georgia is a right to work state – which I agree with by the way. Mama wanted proof that the the GFT was associated with a union and I showed where they are a member of the AFLCIO. I was just answering that particular question. Their collective bargaining power was irrelevant to the question asked.

Joe Hussein Mama

July 18th, 2012
11:18 am

0311 — “I disagree. Next the military will want a collective bargaining unit.”

I’m sure you already knew that the military is barred by Federal law from unionizing.

You *did* know that, didn’t you?

Recon 0311 2533

July 18th, 2012
11:20 am

It appears that Jay has done a good job of guiding his flock away from the Bain boondoggle. I did observe a few hold outs earlier when I checked in. Jay, must know that the Dem’s are backing away a bit from Bain because their attacks haven’t been moving the needle in Obama’s favor not unlike the other attacks that failed.

ld

July 18th, 2012
11:21 am

It’s all about indoctrination.

The private schools will produce children who are more likely to grow up to vote in a primitive religious stupor, unable to see that the GOP has now totally become the part FOR the rich to the substantial detriment of their own “employee” class.

The kind of people the GOP are paying off by trading off our individual liberty and equal right under law for their votes is more of what will be produced by these schools.

Churches already have tax exempt status, but now they want public schools to be their sub-stations and taxpayers to have no choice but to pay for it. Just whose religion will be taught at taxpayer expense — -this issue is setting us up for a religious civil war in the US. But, then, sometimes it seems as if these mental midgets are actively trying to bring about their “self-fulfilling prophecy of Armageddon”

Joe Hussein Mama

July 18th, 2012
11:21 am

H. Air — “Mama wanted proof that the the GFT was associated with a union”

Now who is making things up? I never said any such thing. :roll:

You said they WERE a union, but they demonstrably have none of the characteristics of a union, nor do they engage in many of the activities normally engaged in by unions.

ld

July 18th, 2012
11:22 am

“How the GOP Became the Party of the Rich”, Rolling Stone, NOV 1011.

UH OH

July 18th, 2012
11:23 am

Conservative Columnist
George Will

“The cost of not releasing the returns are clear. Therefore, he must’ve calculated that there are higher costs in releasing them.”
ABC Contributor and Bush Campaign Adviser
Mathew Dowd

“There’s obviously something there, because if there was nothing there, he would say, ‘Have at it.’

“If he had 20 years of ‘great, clean, everything’s fine,’ it all would be out there.”
GOP strategist
Rick Tyler

“There’s clearly the problem with the tax returns, otherwise he would release, you know, 10 years of tax returns”
Former RNC Chairman
Michael Steele

“Put out as much information as you can even if you don’t release 12 years of tax returns — at least three, four, five.”
Former Mississippi Governor
Haley Barbour

“He ought to release his returns,” Barbour tells National Review Online. “Any time this campaign’s conversation is not about President Obama’s failed policies,” particularly his economic record, “then the [Romney] campaign isn’t talking about the right thing.”
Alabama Governor
Gov. Robert Bentley

“I was asked, today, that question, do you think that Governor Romney should release his tax returns, and I said, ‘I do.’”
GOP Presidential Contender
Ron Paul

“Politically, I think that would help him… In the scheme of things politically, you know, it looks like releasing tax returns is what the people want.”
North Carolina Congressman
Rep. Walter Jones

“I think he should release his financial records and I think if he does it in July, it would be a lot better than in October.”
Texas Congressman
Rep. Pete Sessions

“His personal finances, the way he does things, his record, are fair game.”
R-TX
Gov. Rick Perry

“I’m a big believer that no matter who you are or what office you are running for, you should be as transparent as you can be with your tax returns and other aspects of your life so that people have the appropriate ability to judge your background and what have you. I certainly think it is inappropriate for the president of the united states to not keep his college transcript and his law school transcripts public, that he should make those available. I’m all about transparency.”

Get more pure politics at ABC News.com/Politics and a lighter take on the news at OTUSNews.com

G.I. Joe

July 18th, 2012
11:24 am

Mama – Take a valium and cool off. I read every word HOT AIR said and you were trying trick him/her in to the Georgia Union stuff. HOT AIR said the GFT was affiliated with a nation wide union and there were other nation wide unions. HOT AIR never implied that the GFT had collective bargaining power. In fact you brought that up – not HOT AIR. Just because you read something in to it that wasn’t there doesn’t make it true. You were wrong this time. Admit it and move on.

Don't Tread

July 18th, 2012
11:25 am

Good for Jindal in implementing the voucher system. I hope it takes hold here. Maybe the public education system will clean up its act when they see their money supply threatened (maybe :roll: ).

Misty Fyed

July 18th, 2012
11:25 am

A primitive religious stupor….wow…another self righteous liberal.

Misty Fyed

July 18th, 2012
11:26 am

Don’t Tread…
Don’t count on it…The libs would much rather have a failing system they control than a successful system out of their control.

FrankLeeDarling

July 18th, 2012
11:27 am

As a homeowner who does not plan on having children
I am paying for a service I will not use.
I have never had a problem with this as I can see the benefit of a educated society
And I myself did go to public school after all,but if my tax dollars start going to pay for someone to send their child to a private school I will have a big problem with it.

UH OH

July 18th, 2012
11:27 am

Democrats can surely back off of the tax issue. Republicans and conservatives have taken over that rallying cry

On Monday, Fox News senior political analyst Brit Hume told Bill O’Reilly that he didn’t see the tax records issue making a difference among voters, but “anytime it’s an issue between disclosure and non-disclosure, you always wonder whether it’s better just to put it out there.”

Brosephus™

July 18th, 2012
11:28 am

HOT AIR

Unions without collective bargaining is not a union at all. That amounts to nothing more than a trade organization. Using your metrics, the American Medical Association or the American Bar Association is a union too. I doubt very seriously that you will find many who will agree with that. Those same organizations have members who pay dues to belong and they represent their members as well. The difference between an industry organization and a union is that a union has collective bargaining powers that usually revolve around a CBA that’s agreed upon between the organization and the company. When you can show proof of a collective agreement between the Ga Dept of Ed and the group you’re talking about, I’ll believe teachers in Georgia have a union.

You can sell that to many people, but I come from a union family and I know better.

Recon 0311 2533

July 18th, 2012
11:29 am

Uh Oh,

And the people said…no not Amen, they’re saying so what.

Union

July 18th, 2012
11:29 am

Brosephus™
July 18th, 2012
11:06 am

Union

The same question applies to you as it did to HOT AIR…

What is union representation when there is no collective bargaining agreement to enforce? Unions have chapters in all 50 states, but that doesn’t mean they get to negotiate on employees behalfs in all 50 states. If you have proof otherwise, then feel free to post it.

sigh.. ok.. maybe someones parents should have put them in private school?

un·ion   [yoon-yuhn] Show IPA
noun
1. the act of uniting two or more things.
2. the state of being united.
3.something formed by uniting two or more things; combination.
4.a number of persons, states, etc., joined or associated together for some common purpose: student union; credit union.
5.a group of states or nations united into one political body, as that of the American colonies at the time of the revolution, that of England and Scotland in 1707, or that of Great Britain and Ireland in 1801.

dont see where the definition of union has anything to do with collective bargaining? you may want to tell those union folks in WI they are no longer a union either..

TaxPayer

July 18th, 2012
11:30 am

Once Republicans have their way with our education system, Georgia can once again rise to be the Peach/Peanut/Cotton capital of the Americas. The sky’s the limit after that. I foresee mills and weavers and Made In America Levis… Maybe even brickmakers.

Don't Tread

July 18th, 2012
11:30 am

“It’s all about indoctrination”

Yeah, the public schools are all about “indoctrination” – forcing liberal crap on impressionable kids. It’s been going on for decades. Now that cornerstone of liberal policy is being threatened, and the liberal howling is predictable.

Don’t worry, you can always move to the People’s Republik of Kalifornia (or New York, or Illinois, or…) where your indoctrination can continue unabated.

DebbieDoRight - The Only Thing Wrong With Capitalism is Capitalists...

July 18th, 2012
11:31 am

Enter your comments here

Common Damn Sense isn't Very Common

July 18th, 2012
11:31 am

Bro@10:39 am

Common sense is not your friend.
—————————————————————-

Now that’s just plain mean

:-)

Morning all

Liberal Chicks are UGLY

July 18th, 2012
11:32 am

The public education ins LA is horrific. So, yeah, anything is better than the current system. If there was a place to try this experiment, LA is the right place. Only thing you learn in LA schools is how to hold a knife on your teacher so she gives you an ‘A’.

Renard

July 18th, 2012
11:32 am

Just one example of the transfer of wealth from the people to the corporations and dumbing down of the public as a whole. Stupid people vote in stupid policies and never realize they are hurting themselves. All you need is Jesus until he doesn’t show up up and that’s when you realize too late that you’re screwed.

Tall

July 18th, 2012
11:33 am

…”http://charlotte.cbslocal.com/2012/07/17/study-people-who-are-constantly-online-can-develop-mental-disorders/…”

Some of you could be in danger.

Oblama

July 18th, 2012
11:33 am

HOT AIR said the GFT payed dues to the AFLCIO. That’s true. The AFLCIO says on the GFT website that the GFT is a member of the AFLCIO. HOT AIR was talking about the union involvement in hiring lawyers to defend the teachers fired in the cheating scandal. HOT AIR was not even talking about collective bargaining power, etc. Don’t you think teachers involved in the cheating scandal should be fired? Especially when their bonus pay is based on how their students do in their classroom. HOT AIR asked you to respond to that question but you have not responded. Why?

TaxPayer

July 18th, 2012
11:33 am

Come to think of it, I didn’t get my money’s worth out of the Iraq war either. I demand a refund. Oops! Wait. We never have paid for that either.

barking frog

July 18th, 2012
11:33 am

Should Romney publish his
metrics to see if he measures up to Obama’s
big stick or do we wait for
his VP to do that?

UH OH

July 18th, 2012
11:34 am

Recon

Guess you would have to look at polls to see what they are saying. Collectively they are saying within the Electoral College that Romney has a huge hill to climb.

As far as the tax issue, polls seem to be slightly mixed.

DebbieDoRight - The Only Thing Wrong With Capitalism is Capitalists...

July 18th, 2012
11:35 am

Joe Mama — Not sure but wasn’t that you and I who had this conversation a few nights ago? Remember how I said that someone’s religion DOES matter if they put their religion before their country?

to me, this is a blatant case, (Lousiana), of what I said before. The Talibaptists have finally implemented Plan A — Getting a foothold into the psyche of American students/children with Public tax money through hook or crook.

I bet somewhere, somehow, Earl Paulk is laughing his azz off.

Erwin's cat

July 18th, 2012
11:35 am

Brosephus™

July 18th, 2012
11:35 am

Union

dont see where the definition of union has anything to do with collective bargaining?

Well, had you bothered to pay attention in class, you would know that we’re talking about “labor unions” which is a specific type of union. Geez, is it so hard to get people to use common sense nowadays. Anyway, for your knowledge base, if you even have one to begin with.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/labor+union

labor union 
noun
an organization of wage earners or salaried employees for mutual aid and protection and for dealing collectively with employers; trade union.

——————————–

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/labor-union.asp

Definition of ‘Labor Union’
An organization intended to represent the collective interests of workers in negotiations with employers over wages, hours and working conditions. Labor unions are often industry-specific and tend to be more common in manufacturing, mining, construction, transportation and the public sector.

Seems there is a common word being used, collectively, that is used to define LABOR UNIONS. For what you’re using, union could be a marriage, or simply connecting two train cars together. Both of those are unions and have absolutely nothing to do with workers.

FrankLeeDarling

July 18th, 2012
11:36 am

It’s sad that so many people still can’t tell the difference between education and indoctrination.
One happens in a church and one happens in a school,lets keep it that way please.

Aquagirl

July 18th, 2012
11:36 am

Aquagirl, hoe bout more liek the parents get back what they paid in.[sic]

Let me try this again: those parents aren’t paying for their child’s education. They are paying, like the rest of us, for public education of all children. They pay the exact same amount if they have 0 children or 27. Therefore “what they paid in” is completely irrelevant. If they don’t like the public facilities nobody is stopping them from selecting a private school for their kids.

Why they should pay no taxes while people without children in school do is a mystery only understandable to the conservative mind. And I’m using the term “mind” very loosely.

If you like the idea of an uneducated populace you are free to move to Louisiana.

East Lake Ira

July 18th, 2012
11:37 am

JWA77 – East Lake, those are services the government is required to produce. After all a government is to protect and serve it’s citizens.

First things first, have a seat you may be experiencing a stroke brought on by you own cognitive dissonence.

Now, please explain how government is required to provide police and fire protection. Opinion does not count. Is it in the State or US Constitution?

TaxPayer

July 18th, 2012
11:37 am

What possible value could math or science be to a conservative.

John Christopher

July 18th, 2012
11:38 am

uh, has anyone checked where our public educated kids ranked in math and science achievement worldwide? Its pathetic. As a parent you want to send your kids to the best place for education.
In some places it may be public but in other cases its private. Give the parents a choice and let them decide! What a concept.

TaxPayer

July 18th, 2012
11:41 am

Yes, let’s forget about Bain for the moment and talk about Romney’s job creating experience instead. :lol:

Brosephus™

July 18th, 2012
11:41 am

HOT AIR said the GFT payed dues to the AFLCIO. That’s true. The AFLCIO says on the GFT website that the GFT is a member of the AFLCIO. HOT AIR was talking about the union involvement in hiring lawyers to defend the teachers fired in the cheating scandal.

You might wanna go back and read exactly what HOT AIR wrote that started the whole debate first before walking that plank…

HOT AIR
July 18th, 2012
9:29 am

Honey – Teacher’s unions are nation wide, including Georgia. I have a teachers certificate and should know.

After JHM quizzed him on teachers unions in Georgia, he moved the goalposts to the lawyers and such. He still hasn’t backed up his original assertion about teacher’s unions being in Georgia. If he can’t prove his initial premise, his whole argument falls apart regardless of how he tries to shift it afterwards.

0311/8541/5811/1811/1801

July 18th, 2012
11:42 am

Joe Hussein Mama:

“0311 — “I disagree. Next the military will want a collective bargaining unit.”

I’m sure you already knew that the military is barred by Federal law from unionizing.

You *did* know that, didn’t you?”

A few points:

1) You’re evading the issue by taking a shot at my knowledge knowing full well otherwise.

2) Of course (having been in the military) I knew/know that.

3) I said they would “WANT” collective bargaining.

4) Wanting and getting are two different things but it can cause chaos.

5) The Air Traffic Controllers are a perfect example of those who “wanted” collective bargaining and I am sure glad Reagan put them in their place.

6) Government employees should NOT have collective bargaining rights. If you don’t want that type of job …………. don’t apply !!!

Now ……….. I have to go babysit for the rest of the day but would be happy to continue this this evening if you want to bring it up again then.

Everyone be nice !

Tall

July 18th, 2012
11:42 am

…”to me, this is a blatant case, (Lousiana), of what I said before. The Talibaptists have finally implemented Plan A — Getting a foothold into the psyche of American students/children with Public tax money through hook or crook….”

“TaliBaptists? See my earlier post. On the other hand, I’ll take them over the progressive ideology being taught to my two kids in the Fulton County School system.

Brosephus™

July 18th, 2012
11:42 am

NoCom

My bad if you are friends. That particular poster tried to talk about me and common sense by displaying absolutely complete disregard for common sense.

:)

Recon 0311 2533

July 18th, 2012
11:42 am

UH OH,

If you look at the current electoral map it currently doesn’t provide much because state polling isn’t up to date. State polling won’t really be a predictor until late September when it will be as active as the national polling, that has been in progress for some time. National polling has the presidential race neck and neck. I suspect we will see pretty much the same thing in swing states come September. Barring any real bombshell on either side this will be a very close election.

HOT AIR

July 18th, 2012
11:44 am

Brosephus- The AMA and the ABA are not unions. Your logic is illogical. The AFLCIO is a union. GFT pays dues to the AFLCIO which is a union. Get it? I NEVER SAID, IMPLIED, OR INFERRED THAT THE GFT IS A UNION ITSELF. I want you or mama to show me where I said that. They are affiliated with the AFLCIO and pay due to them. the AFLCIO says they are a member. That’s what I said.

TaxPayer

July 18th, 2012
11:44 am

“If children prefer to study fact over fantasy, let them do it on their own dime.” – GOP

Brosephus™

July 18th, 2012
11:45 am

6) Government employees should NOT have collective bargaining rights. If you don’t want that type of job …………. don’t apply !!!

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2012/0414/Secret-Service-Colombia-scandal-Agents-working-too-hard-or-not-hard-enough

But the head of a law enforcement union that represents Secret Service agents said at least one accusation involved an agent and prostitutes. While soliciting prostitutes is legal in Colombia, the Secret Service considers it inappropriate.

So, I’m guessing you’re gonna take on your former employer with those beliefs?

Jm (LL) -pass TSPLOST silly people

July 18th, 2012
11:45 am

Firing a teacher in GA is very very difficult

The GAE has won and stifled education improvements in GA

Joe Hussein Mama

July 18th, 2012
11:47 am

G.I. Joe — “Mama – Take a valium and cool off.”

I’m completely cool.

“I read every word HOT AIR said and you were trying trick him/her in to the Georgia Union stuff.”

Nope. He/She clearly asserted that there *was* a GA teachers’ union and there is demonstrably no such thing. Simple as that.

“HOT AIR said the GFT was affiliated with a nation wide union and there were other nation wide unions.”

Not what she first said, no. Reread.

http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2012/07/18/is-louisiana-the-future-of-georgias-education-system/?cp=5#comment-1016670

“HOT AIR never implied that the GFT had collective bargaining power.”

Incorrect. If he’s/she’s going to assert that there’s a GA teachers’ union, then he/she better be sure that there actually IS one.

“In fact you brought that up – not HOT AIR.”

See, here’s where the both of you are clueless. Once again — assert that there’s a GA teachers’ union, better be able to demonstrate that an actual UNION exists — not just some outfit that ‘pays dues to the AFLCIO.’

“Just because you read something in to it that wasn’t there doesn’t make it true.”

Just because he/she made a claim that he/she can’t support doesn’t make him/her right, either.

“You were wrong this time. Admit it and move on.”

Nope. I’d be lying if I did that. I’m absolutely correct on the points that I’m arguing.

Brosephus™

July 18th, 2012
11:48 am

I NEVER SAID, IMPLIED, OR INFERRED THAT THE GFT IS A UNION ITSELF.

Really??? Then exactly what did you mean when you posted this little diddy earlier?

HOT AIR
July 18th, 2012
9:29 am

Honey – Teacher’s unions are nation wide, including Georgia. I have a teachers certificate and should know.

You may not have stated that GFT is a union, but by claiming they exist in Georgia and then focusing on GFT, you’ve painted yourself in quite the corner now. So, which post/assertion/assumption are you going to walk back now?

HOT AIR

July 18th, 2012
11:48 am

Brosephus – Yes labor unions are unions. Next.

BlondeHoney

July 18th, 2012
11:49 am

Hot Air, you absolutely did say the GFT was a union; I was the one who said they were a professional associated affiliated with the AFLCIO. Stop back pedaling; Brosephus is 100% correct.

Old Goober

July 18th, 2012
11:49 am

HOT AIR was not even talking about collective bargaining power, etc. Don’t you think teachers involved in the cheating scandal should be fired?

Oh, balderdash! The assertion of AFL/CIO affiliation was fully intended to imply all the negative aspects resting in the public mind about unions. Otherwise, Hot Air would not have brought up the AFL/CIO. You know it and I know it. Why don’t you exercise a little honesty, instead of engaging in polemics?

Joe Hussein Mama

July 18th, 2012
11:50 am

Union — “sigh.. ok.. maybe someones parents should have put them in private school?”

“un·ion   [yoon-yuhn] Show IPA”
“noun”

The moment someone falls back on dictionary definitions, they’ve already lost the argument.

Erwin's cat

July 18th, 2012
11:50 am

TP..here’s a good read in Time Mag on the topic in relation to SAT scores.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1670063,00.html

UH OH

July 18th, 2012
11:50 am

“State polling won’t really be a predictor until late September when it will be as active as the national polling,”

Not exactly. The reason that each campaign has already dwindled the election down to less than 10 states is because of polling. They may miscalculate a state for sure, however they have already drawn battle plans based on polling data.

There are reasons that some states get more attention than others. GA is a no brain brainer. NY is a no brainer. Polling shows the WI, VA, OH, CO, NM, FL are tight and that is where the money will go. That is driven on past elections and current polling data.

Now if you can demonstrate in the last few Presidential elections where those tactics did not apply, I would be most certainly willing to review and study it.

Again, the polling is not 100% by any means, however it is an indicator that Romney has a hill to climb. Not impossible by any means, but he has work to do and they know where the heavy lifting must take place do to polling data.

TaxPayer

July 18th, 2012
11:51 am

Why are some of you arguing with hot air. Hot air is what it is.

Joe Hussein Mama

July 18th, 2012
11:51 am

Oblama — “HOT AIR said the GFT payed dues to the AFLCIO. That’s true. The AFLCIO says on the GFT website that the GFT is a member of the AFLCIO. HOT AIR was talking about the union involvement in hiring lawyers to defend the teachers fired in the cheating scandal. HOT AIR was not even talking about collective bargaining power, etc.”

HOT AIR asserted that there is a GA Teachers’ Union, and HOT AIR is demonstrably wrong on that point.

Anything else HOT AIR has to say is of no interest to me.

barking frog

July 18th, 2012
11:52 am

Why is there no teachers
union in Georgia?

DebbieDoRight - The Only Thing Wrong With Capitalism is Capitalists...

July 18th, 2012
11:53 am

Frank: but if my tax dollars start going to pay for someone to send their child to a private school I will have a big problem with it.

Word.

Brosephus™

July 18th, 2012
11:54 am

TaxPayer

I enjoy making people expose their lack of knowlege sometimes. It’s funny watching people shift and move goalposts like Barry Sanders cutting through a weak secondary. :)

Joe Hussein Mama

July 18th, 2012
11:54 am

D. DoRight — “Joe Mama — Not sure but wasn’t that you and I who had this conversation a few nights ago? Remember how I said that someone’s religion DOES matter if they put their religion before their country?”

Yes, I believe we did discuss that.

St Simons - guaranteed

July 18th, 2012
11:54 am

this fall on Bravo – ‘Swamp People – the School’

yeah buddy.

HOT AIR

July 18th, 2012
11:54 am

Brosphus – EXACTLY! I never said the GFT was a union. What are you arguing about? Teacher’s unions are nation wide. I was talking about the AFLCIO of which the GFT is a dues paying member. I never said the GFT is a union…… show me. Why don’t you and Mama answer my question? Do you think the teachers involved in the cheating scandal, corrupting our school system and personally benefiting from bonuses they received, should be fired?

Brosephus™

July 18th, 2012
11:56 am

frog

#1 Georgia is a right-to-work state.
#2 Teachers either haven’t sought to or been able to organize to form a union.

—————————–

The AMA and the ABA are not unions. Your logic is illogical. The AFLCIO is a union. GFT pays dues to the AFLCIO which is a union.

Until there’s a collective bargaining agreement to enforce, there is no union. Regardless to who’s paying dues to who. The fact of the matter is that, in the state of Georgia, GFT membership is no different than AMA or ABA membership.

ld

July 18th, 2012
11:57 am

QUESTION FOR TEACHERS:

When I was in school, the theory of evolution was taught in only ONE, one-hour science class–biology–for about ONE month out of ONE high school (sophmore) year. Even I, a non-believer, spent much more of my childhood time in church and Sunday School and Bible School than that beginning as some of my earliest memories. I quit going to church and Sunday School and Bible School (except for a few weddings, funerals and sleepovers that lasted into Sunday) at age twelve—LONG before I ever heard about the theory of evolution–because the hypocrisy I saw started me asking questions and the answers were total circular nonsense.

It would be interesting to hear from TEACHERS: Just how much TIME is actually spent on the theory of evolution NOW–in today’s public schools?

The sincerely Religious people have from birth till pre-K or longer, full time, and then, thereafter, every day, all day, each summer and every weekend all year and even every evening –even on school days– for eighteen years in which to teach their children their religion.

The problem for the religious is not that the children will, briefly, hear about a “theory”, it is that the religious are incapable of “selling” religion w/o full time indoctrination.

Telling a mentally competant adult that had never heard of religion before that some all-powerful invisible, non-human thing stalks people from birth watching to be displeased w/a plan to send those people that displeases it to a place to be tortured w/fire forever –but that they should love this thing –would NOT be believe.

When church was just about the only small-town social diversion and place to meet the opposite sex, then churches had a monoply on moulding young minds. Now that children are more able to expand their knowledge, the curious among them–the more intelligent among them– do; therefore, it is becomming ever more difficult to sell these man-made myths as truth.]

Religion is a man-made power tool fueled by fear and need and greed. The GOP uses it to get voters to the polls to vote for representatives that will work for the wealthiest among us–and, across the nation, they are trading the individual liberty and equal right under law of future generations to do that w/right wing-nut laws.

TaxPayer

July 18th, 2012
11:59 am

Erwin,

I would love to see all charter schools submit data on student performance versus cost of education.

HOT AIR

July 18th, 2012
11:59 am

You can say I implied something, since you are the thought police, but I know what I said. I never implied anything you just thought I did because you WANTED to. Not going to keep going over this with you. When I am wrong I admit it – you evidently don’t.

Joe Hussein Mama

July 18th, 2012
12:00 pm

0311 — “1) You’re evading the issue by taking a shot at my knowledge knowing full well otherwise.”

You must have missed the part where I said that we need not make this a point of contention.

“2) Of course (having been in the military) I knew/know that.”

Good, then you didn’t need to go here.

“3) I said they would “WANT” collective bargaining.”

And people in hell want ice water, right? So what?

“4) Wanting and getting are two different things but it can cause chaos.”

I’m sure you will agree that there are plenty MORE things men and women in uniform want, and are more likely to agitate over than over union representation. Sheesh. :roll:

“5) The Air Traffic Controllers are a perfect example of those who “wanted” collective bargaining and I am sure glad Reagan put them in their place.”

They HAD it. Reagan fired them anyway. And now Reagan’s shortsightedness is coming home to roost in the form of massive retirements of all those ATCs that got hired after that. Mass hires = mass retirements later.

“6) Government employees should NOT have collective bargaining rights. If you don’t want that type of job …………. don’t apply !!! ”

We disagree. But that’s not surprising. :D

Proud to be me

July 18th, 2012
12:00 pm

Wake up America! More money dumped into our education system has not, does not and will not make for better education. The ones who win in our education system are not the students but the administrators and teachers. Most of the money that goes into education goes for administration. Parents are expected to not only pay most of their property taxes for education, but they are expected to pay for a list of supplies not just for their own child/children but for the underprivileged as well at the beginning of the school year and these supplies are for the entire year. We hear how the teachers “spend their own money” . . . have you walked into a classroom lately. Every nook and cranny is covered with something . . I question the necessity of all of these things. Certainly I survived in a classroom without all the frills that kids have today. If this is what teachers spend their money own then I would have to question the necessity for all these things.

ld

July 18th, 2012
12:01 pm

TEACHERS OUT THERE:

How much actual TIME are public schools now spending teaching the theory of evolution?

Joe Hussein Mama

July 18th, 2012
12:01 pm

Recon — “If you look at the current electoral map it currently doesn’t provide much because state polling isn’t up to date.”

What are you talking about? Electoral-vote.com updates every time one of the constituent polls gets updated.

RB from Gwinnett

July 18th, 2012
12:02 pm

Are federal and state governments forcing employees to work in unsafe conditions or employing unfair work rules on them to make unions necessary? If not, why do they exist if not to enrich the members at the expense of taxpayers?

Recon 0311 2533

July 18th, 2012
12:02 pm

UH OH,

They’re states that have historically voted for Democrats or Republicans in decisive numbers the pollsters give them to one candidate or the other as certain along with the appropriate number of electoral votes. Next you have leaning toward one or the other, again based on historic data. You then come to swing states where it’s predicted the election will be won or lost. The swing states are the variables and down in the trenches or polling district survey’s won’t be in full motion until September.

barking frog

July 18th, 2012
12:03 pm

Brosephus
Unions exist in right to
work states just no closed
shops.
Teachers in georgia are
happy with associations
instead of unions I guess
as i know of nothing
restricting them.

Joe Hussein Mama

July 18th, 2012
12:04 pm

H. AIR — “Get it? I NEVER SAID, IMPLIED, OR INFERRED THAT THE GFT IS A UNION ITSELF.”

Uh huh. Then tell us about the Georgia Teachers’ Union that you said exists.

“I want you or mama to show me where I said that.”

You said that there’s were teachers’ unions all over the country INCLUDING GEORGIA. So tell us about this alleged Georgia teachers’ union, please.

“They are affiliated with the AFLCIO and pay due to them. the AFLCIO says they are a member. That’s what I said.”

You also said that there was a GA teachers’ union. Once again, tell us about it, please.

DebbieDoRight - The Only Thing Wrong With Capitalism is Capitalists...

July 18th, 2012
12:05 pm

So many great comments…….so little con appreciation…..so dang sad……

AG: Why they should pay no taxes while people without children in school do is a mystery only understandable to the conservative mind. And I’m using the term “mind” very loosely.
If you like the idea of an uneducated populace you are free to move to Louisiana

Great Comment #1

TP: What possible value could math or science be to a conservative

Great Comment #2

Tall: On the other hand, I’ll take them over the progressive ideology being taught to my two kids in the Fulton County School system.

Tall – This is America….if you don’t like the Fulton county School System, you can always, at your own expense, enroll your children in private school. IOW – don’t let the door hit ya…..yada, yada, yada………………..

ramguy68

July 18th, 2012
12:06 pm

My son started in the Ga public school system and performed very poorly. When he started public school in New Mexico while in the 3rd grade, one of his great Ga teachers took upon herself to contact his New Mexico teachers to tell them that he was almost unteachable and then proceed to give advice on how to handle hm. Of course they took offense from this letter. He went from one of the poorest students in his lowly rated Ga school to being one of the best students his highly rated school. His 1st teacher out there to this day keeps up with how he’s doing and sends his incompetent Ga teachers his high marks several times a year. She has done that year after year. Jay’s right it’s not only the elected local officials it’s also the parents and the culture and attitudes towards teaching here.

lefty_316

July 18th, 2012
12:07 pm

Social conservatives are destroying America. Currently 40% of American children are born to parents or a single mother on Medicaid. Logic and reason dictate that we adopt a zero tolerance policy on this issue. But of course that will never happen with idiological garbage such as Michelle Bachman and James Inhofe in the United States Congress.

“Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion”……….let’s make that a serious crime and send any member of Congress to prison for 50 years for introducing legislation of a religious nature.

Joe Hussein Mama

July 18th, 2012
12:08 pm

B. Frog — “Why is there no teachers union in Georgia?”

I enthusiastically refer you to Maureen Downey’s blog. :D

DebbieDoRight - The Only Thing Wrong With Capitalism is Capitalists...

July 18th, 2012
12:09 pm

why do they exist if not to enrich the members at the expense of taxpayers?

RB — please name one tax dollar that goes towards Unions. I’ll wait. Thanks in advance.