GOP: Massive campaign donations should be secret
“WASHINGTON — During their long campaign to loosen rules on campaign money, conservatives argued that there was a simpler way to prevent corruption: transparency. Get rid of limits on contributions and spending, they said, but make sure voters know where the money is coming from.
Today, with those fundraising restrictions largely removed, many conservatives have changed their tune. They now say disclosure could be an enemy of free speech.
High-profile donors could face bullying and harassment from liberals out to “muzzle” their opponents, Sen. Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) said in a recent speech.
Corporations could be subject to boycotts and pickets, warned the Wall Street Journal editorial page this spring.
Democrats “want to intimidate people into not giving to these conservative efforts,” said Republican strategist Karl Rove on Fox News. “I think it’s shameful.”
The Times’ story goes on to document a wide-ranging effort by conservative groups to undermine, dismantle and evade laws intended to force disclosure of who is giving how much money to who. They are also aggressively abusing a loophole in regulations that allow nonprofit groups to collect hundreds of millions of dollars in anonymous donations — under the guise that they are social-welfare organizations — and use that anonymous money to buy campaign ads.
The Federal Election Commission, which has the legal authority and even obligation to intervene, has been rendered incapable of doing so. In an all-too-familiar pattern, the commission’s three Republican members are blocking its three Democratic members from taking action to force disclosure that the law clearly requires. (See Van Hollen v. FEC).
As a result, it is becoming increasingly difficult for the public and the media to “follow the money,” the traditional means to trace how big money in the political system produces favorable outcomes for those doing the giving.
The excuse for such secrecy is that large donors fear a backlash should their involvement become public. Poor little sensitive dears.
What do they think happens when John Q. Public writes a letter to the editor of the local newspaper, puts a campaign sign in his front yard or a bumper sticker on his car?
Why should they be exempt from disclosing contributions measured in the millions of dollars, while Jane Q. Public’s little $500 contribution to a candidate ends up in a FEC database accessible to her employer, her family and friends and everyone else with an Internet connection?
As one prominent jurist noted back in 2010:
“Requiring people to stand up in public for their political acts fosters civic courage, without which democracy is doomed. For my part, I do not look forward to a society which, thanks to the Supreme Court, campaigns anonymously and even exercises the direct democracy of initiative and referendum hidden from public scrutiny and protected from the accountability of criticism.”
Of course, given that the jurist in question was Justice Antonin Scalia, he may be singing a different tune now, given the partisan turn this issue has taken.
– Jay Bookman
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757 comments Add your comment
They BOTH suck
June 27th, 2012
2:24 pm
TC
Good post. The “insider trading” issue that Congress elected to basically forgo is a travesty. They should all be ashamed.
I am on record stating that Obama is a hypocrite for going after Republicans about Super Pacs but now pushing people to donate to those that support him. Personally I think there is too much money involved in elections: corporations, individuals, unions, etc. I know that will not change, however it would be nice if all donations from whomever and where ever were made public.
stands for decibels
June 27th, 2012
2:24 pm
I’d suggest you eat a Reuben as opposed to a Glock
Ok. It’s a far more pleasant way to go.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 27th, 2012
2:25 pm
Lots of them there Fox Nonsense watchers and fellow GOP nonsense repeaters posting their own uninformed opinion as if it meant it were facts. Course they seem to only demand facts and evidence when it suits them.
Adam
June 27th, 2012
2:25 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDuxWGHA-Z4
Oscar
June 27th, 2012
2:25 pm
Does anyone here NOT think that elected officials ought to be separated from money?
_____
How could we possibly separate elected officials from money. It takes money to run campaigns. Someone has to pay for that. Always has been true. People contribute to those candidates that think like they do.
Lord Help Us
June 27th, 2012
2:25 pm
The very organization that is championing the absence of gun control and ALLOW gun walking is blaming the Obama administration for a Border Patrol death.
Mendacious, shameless, immoral…
Joseph
June 27th, 2012
2:26 pm
Why don’t Obama do something to help the folks of Colorado??? I guess he’s to busy campaigning….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCaGcyUd85M&feature=player_embedded
Doggone/GA
June 27th, 2012
2:26 pm
“People contribute to those candidates that think like they do”
Almost, but not quite: People contribute to those candidates that they think think like they do
carlosgvv
June 27th, 2012
2:27 pm
“many are alarmed that money is…exerting undue influence”
Money taking over American politics is like Joseph Stalin coming to power. It will last a long time and will be next to impossible to change.
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
June 27th, 2012
2:27 pm
BRO,
I note 4 DEMS have now sided with GOP to push for contempt charge v Holder…
Also, since candidates with the most money win 94% of elections, of course the GOP needs to outspend DEMS…Didn’t Obama have more money than McCain? Too bad the 2 billion or so spent between these idiots can go to feed some of our many hungry folks instead of to misleading advertising and the like.
Oscar
June 27th, 2012
2:27 pm
Lord Help Us
June 27th, 2012
2:25 pm
____
They want a small government and no government control until something bad happens, then they blame the government for not preventing it, or for not fixing it soon enough if it is a disaster.
They BOTH suck
June 27th, 2012
2:29 pm
Bro
BINGO………….. Best post of the day.
If many on the “right”, including the NRA, had not sold thhe “Obama will take you guns” story you might sound a little conspiratorial. However the story was sold and most with common sense knew it was BS. Now we have a double down via another angle. And by mere coincidence as we both have stated, the NRA is lobbying in the background on this issue.
Why would they be so concerned as to lobby / strong arm Dems in the House?
hmmmmmmmmmm
getalife
June 27th, 2012
2:29 pm
Lets recap American politics.
The gop started two occupations, collapsed the global economy and lost the election..
Then they fought against our recovery for this election and cry our President did not clean up their mess yet. They gave us our first downgrade and austerity that failed in Europe.
The gop lost a decade of job growth but blame our President.
In a sane America, the gop would be the whig party and history.
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
June 27th, 2012
2:29 pm
Carlos
Couldn’t agree more…it’s basically a conflict of interest for our elected corrupted goons to work on behalf of us taxpayers…that’s why nothing gets done as the big money is on the outer most reaches of the left and right…the result is ineffective leadership and crap legislation such as Obamacare.
barking frog
June 27th, 2012
2:29 pm
Obama needs to exert more
control over the weather.
Towncrier
June 27th, 2012
2:29 pm
“If you really think about it, the people who are playing the sensationalism card are the Republicans. Some to look good, and some to try to force getting their way on issues by trying to change everyone’s mind.”
Sorry, Adam, I just see this statement as more partisan finger pointing. I have no illusions about the “goodness” of most conservative politicians. Perhaps you should invest some time investigating the “sins” of your own party (which are very many) to understand what I am driving at.
Oscar
June 27th, 2012
2:29 pm
Almost, but not quite: People contribute to those candidates that they think think like they do
__________
Reminds me of when Jimmy Carter ran for governor on the right of Sanders, and as a segregationist. Surprised a lot of people with his speech on the day he was inaugurated.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 27th, 2012
2:30 pm
Last month, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives released its most recent data showing that, in the last five years, more than 68,000 crime guns were recovered in Mexico and traced back to the United States. The guns that “walked” across the border under the “Fast and Furious” operation constitute less than 3% of those guns. Where is Speaker Boehner’s concern about the other 97%?
Not only has the Republican House majority done nothing to stem the trafficking of guns to Mexico; it has acted to block the modest efforts of the Obama Administration to address the problem. The House twice has voted to block continued implementation of the Administration’s regulatory requirement that multiple sales of semi-automatic rifles in the border states be promptly reported to ATF to give the law enforcers real-time notice of the suspicious gun sales that are feeding the cartels. Given that “Fast and Furious” has been rightly criticized for allowing guns to “walk” to Mexico, it seems odd that House Republicans would object to a regulation that is enabling ATF to better stop trafficked guns before they get to the border and to arrest the traffickers.
Doggone/GA
June 27th, 2012
2:30 pm
“then they blame the government for not preventing it, or for not fixing it soon enough if it is a disaster”
Sure, here’s how it works: “Government isn’t the solution, it’s the problem” so vote for us and we’ll MAKE SURE government can’t get anything done so we can bitch about the government not doing what we stopped it from doing.
Paul
June 27th, 2012
2:32 pm
Joseph
“Why don’t Obama do something to help the folks of Colorado???”
Now you’re calling for the Feds to take over local government roles and for the fed to bail out people who chose where to live and not carry adequate insurance?!!?
Granny Godzilla - Union Thugette
June 27th, 2012
2:33 pm
Joseph
This guy could help in CO.
http://www.mediaite.com/online/the-daily-caller-digs-up-more-mitt-romney-dress-up-stories/
Doggone/GA
June 27th, 2012
2:34 pm
“Now you’re calling for the Feds to take over ”
And remember: the federal government can’t do ANYTHING right
Towncrier
June 27th, 2012
2:34 pm
BTW, Adam, I read Ungar’s blog and the almost 30 pages of comments in response to it. It was a good read. Thanks for the link.
Towncrier
June 27th, 2012
2:34 pm
BTW, Adam, I read Ungar’s blog and the almost 30 pages of comments in response to it. It was a good read. Thanks for the link.
Towncrier
June 27th, 2012
2:34 pm
BTW, Adam, I read Ungar’s blog and the almost 30 pages of comments in response to it. It was a good read. Thanks for the link.
Brosephus™
June 27th, 2012
2:34 pm
Towncrier
Read that story at Fortune then. Based on their investigation, it does not appear that “Fast and Furious” was a gun walking program at all. They were tracking serial numbers of suspicious purchases. They were constantly rebuffed by AUSA’s when they presented information for possible prosecution.
By January 2010 the agents had identified 20 suspects who had paid some $350,000 in cash for more than 650 guns. According to Rep. Issa’s congressional committee, Group VII had enough evidence to make arrests and close the case then.
This was not the view of federal prosecutors. In a meeting on Jan. 5, 2010, Emory Hurley, the assistant U.S. Attorney in Phoenix overseeing the Fast and Furious case, told the agents they lacked probable cause for arrests, according to ATF records. Hurley’s judgment reflected accepted policy at the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Arizona. “[P]urchasing multiple long guns in Arizona is lawful,” Patrick Cunningham, the U.S. Attorney’s then–criminal chief in Arizona would later write. “Transferring them to another is lawful and even sale or barter of the guns to another is lawful unless the United States can prove by clear and convincing evidence that the firearm is intended to be used to commit a crime.” (Arizona federal prosecutors referred requests for comment to the Justice Department, which declined to make officials available. Hurley noted in an e-mail, “I am not able to comment on what I understand to be an ongoing investigation/prosecution. I am precluded by federal regulation, DOJ policy, the rules of professional conduct, and court order from talking with you about this matter.” Cunningham’s attorney also declined to comment.)
It was nearly impossible in Arizona to bring a case against a straw purchaser. The federal prosecutors there did not consider the purchase of a huge volume of guns, or their handoff to a third party, sufficient evidence to seize them. A buyer who certified that the guns were for himself, then handed them off minutes later, hadn’t necessarily lied and was free to change his mind. Even if a suspect bought 10 guns that were recovered days later at a Mexican crime scene, this didn’t mean the initial purchase had been illegal. To these prosecutors, the pattern proved little. Instead, agents needed to link specific evidence of intent to commit a crime to each gun they wanted to seize.
Fed Prosecutors don’t go to Eric Holder to get permission to prosecute cases. They make those judgment calls on their own. I don’t think Holder was aware of what was going on until it all hit the news. Even in my agency, Atlanta officers don’t know what type of operation that officers are doing on the southern border at Nogales, Arizona or Otay Mesa, California.
getalife
June 27th, 2012
2:35 pm
The American people failed to unite to get change after the collapse. They lost the class war and now corrupt congress are out of control.
The kicker is the cons were on the wrong side as usual.
They bowed down so don’t cry about corruption cons.
You look silly.
Doggone/GA
June 27th, 2012
2:35 pm
Good job TC! It’s hard enough to get something posted twice…three times is a real feat!
Towncrier
June 27th, 2012
2:35 pm
Wow…a triple post that should never happen unintentionally…I need to do some troubleshooting here…something is wrong with my PC.
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
June 27th, 2012
2:36 pm
GETALIFE,
Your statements are not 100% accurate that the GOP is responsible for all current ills…President Trillions and the DEM controlled congress circa 2008 to 2010 will go down in history as the most prolific spendthrifts in history. Sure the spineless one was dealt a poor hand but instead of improving it he has misplayed it or arguable folded up in favor of the blame game…congress, Bush et al….Clearly he isn’t capable of playing such a hand and needs to go back to Chicago and organize more DEM voters..
Mama Says
June 27th, 2012
2:37 pm
You know guys I have always had a hard time understanding how the democrats make the argument that republicans are for the big guys while the dems are for the poor or regular guys.
I don’t get it because while big business does flourish under the republicans the poor and regular guys tend to fall in line behind the argument that more taxes hurt their pockets.
Dems seem to be telling us they are for the regular guy while they take from us to give it to others. spending more in general and taking more in taxes is not helping the regular guy. To me, a regular person, I need the money in my wallet however small it may be.
I see democrats yelling about big business not being “people “. Well that’s true but they are not sterile money pits from which the government can take. Each business is owned and ran by individual people who rely on that business.
How does it help me to have a democrat in office who wants my taxes, fees and or contribution to the government to go up via imposing more taxes and fees on the business ? We all know those taxes and fees get added onto the cost of the product.
carlosgvv
June 27th, 2012
2:38 pm
Granny
See if you can find a photo of Romney in drag. That might clinch the election for Obama, gay pride not withstanding.
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
June 27th, 2012
2:38 pm
KEEPUPTHEGOODFIGHT,
Why have several DEMS today sided with GOP on contempt charges???
Are you suggesting that Holder et al have nothing to hide? If so, I guess you have read the subject documents? Apologize in advance if I misread your prior post…
getalife
June 27th, 2012
2:39 pm
stevie,
Yeah w was a disaster.
History will show that so stop crying.
godless heathen
June 27th, 2012
2:41 pm
Tax: Where ever it came from, this statement in not true:
“The EPA has found benzene to be a known human carcinogen that is toxic in water at levels greater than five parts per billion.”
And persons in the biz will recognize it as not true and question the credibility of whomever stated it. Sounds good to the layman, but not representative of a serious scientific discussion.
Like the term “Theory of Evolution”. The layman latches onto the term “theory” and applies the layman’s definition to it. Scientists understand theory doesn’t mean what that layman thinks it means and has no problem believing that evolution is real.
TaxPayer
June 27th, 2012
2:41 pm
godless,
toxic concentrations are a function of exposure time as well as other variables. I am disturbed that you are not aware of this if you are in any way responsible for establishing industry guidelines for exposure to toxic compounds.
Brosephus™
June 27th, 2012
2:42 pm
I note 4 DEMS have now sided with GOP to push for contempt charge v Holder…
Are they extremly liberal Dems who are safe in their districts or are they moderates who face challenges in re-election? Are they supported/influenced by the NRA or other organizations or do they face possible well funded opposition by those same groups? There’s always an angle to those things. Never just take things for face value. I don’t.
Boris Badnoff
June 27th, 2012
2:42 pm
On the subject of campaign contributions, please remember to send your wedding gifts to The Messiah. All those Tinsel Town thespians, ambulance chasing lawyers, and Do Gooders just aren’t raising the kind of cash needed for us to see and hear the constant message of Forward with Hope and Change. Heck Bookman threw in one of his used hairpieces. It’s the least you can do.
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
June 27th, 2012
2:42 pm
GETALIFE,
History unfortunately will reflect President No Leadership as much, much worse than the poor presidency of W…Your guy has done nothing but make things worse…
getalife
June 27th, 2012
2:44 pm
dems don’t march lockstep like the gop.
You should know this fact by now.
Brosephus™
June 27th, 2012
2:44 pm
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/27/us/house-democrats-up-for-re-election-feel-gun-lobby-pressure-on-contempt-vote.html?nl=todaysheadlines
Representative Jim Matheson of Utah, who is running for re-election in the most Republican district held by a Democrat, announced Tuesday that he would vote for contempt.
“Sadly, it seems that it will take holding the attorney general in contempt to communicate that evasiveness is unacceptable,” Mr. Matheson said in a statement. “It is a vote I will support.”
Adam
June 27th, 2012
2:44 pm
Towncrier: Sorry, Adam, I just see this statement as more partisan finger pointing. I have no illusions about the “goodness” of most conservative politicians. Perhaps you should invest some time investigating the “sins” of your own party (which are very many) to understand what I am driving at.
I never said that Democrats don’t also have sins, but I am pointing to the very lopsided nature of what’s going on right now. Perpetuating lies and sensationalism is happening far more from the GOP side these days. It’s not even close to being a “both sides” thing in any equitable sense.
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
June 27th, 2012
2:45 pm
BRO,
I just can’t figure out the angle and only go by their comments….the NRA are a bunch of paranoid zagnuts….assualt rifles for all:-)
I do think peeling the layers back a bit on Holder is called for….same crap happened when Bushs’ guy terminated all those judges…something is burning in those files…
Towncrier
June 27th, 2012
2:45 pm
“Read that story at Fortune then. Based on their investigation, it does not appear that “Fast and Furious” was a gun walking program at all.”
I’ll read it, but I am obviously suspicious of single analyses in this politically charged environment. If Obama and Holder are innocent in the matter, that will be fine with me. But Holder contradicting himself in sworn testimony and Obama evoking Executive Privilege where none (to my eye) seems warranted does raise questions even for those without an axe to grind (which I don’t have in this matter).
getalife
June 27th, 2012
2:47 pm
stevie,
No, they will not ignore his accomplishments or the gop actions to stop him.
.
JamVet
June 27th, 2012
2:47 pm
History unfortunately will reflect President No Leadership as much, much worse than the poor presidency of W
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Hysterical.
Man, you Bushbots will say ANYTHING to protect George of the Bungle.
Barry is not even in his league!
And none of you will touch the fact that in virtually every reputable poll or survey ever taken, GWB is WAY DOWN AT THE BOTTOM.
Own it. You nutjobs elected him.
Twice.
And would so so again tomorrow…
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
June 27th, 2012
2:47 pm
BRO,
Three others have joined the cat from Utah…a lot of risk given the power BO and the DEM’s have to screw this guy next time around.
TaxPayer
June 27th, 2012
2:47 pm
And once again, godless,
EPA has set 5 ppb as the maximum permissible level of benzene in drinking water. EPA has set a goal of 0 ppb for benzene in drinking water and in water such as rivers and lakes because benzene can cause leukemia. EPA estimates that 10 ppb benzene in drinking water that is consumed regularly or exposure to 0.4 ppb in air over a lifetime could cause a risk of one additional cancer case for every 100,000 exposed persons. EPA recommends 200 ppb as the maximum permissible level of benzene in water for short-term exposures (10 days) for children.
you seem to take issue with the phrasing but the fact remains that the EPA has set the upper limit for the toxic substance, benzene, in drinking water at 5 ppb and that is what was conveyed in that testimony by the environmental working group. But don’t let that stop you from consuming whatever concentration that makes you feel good. It’s your choice.
Granny Godzilla - Union Thugette
June 27th, 2012
2:48 pm
Stevie Ray
“President Trillions and the DEM controlled congress circa 2008 to 2010″
Sorry but thats a big fat lie.
14 weeks.
And it’s a big fat lie that Romeny uses frequently.
If it’s that hard for you and he to tell the truth about the simple stuff how could anyone trust you on the big stuff?
Old Timer
June 27th, 2012
2:49 pm
This contempt of Congress move is a bunch of horse-hockey. Unless you’re interested in a shoot-out between all the police in the Department of Justice and the Marshal’s Service of the judiciary, there’s no way to enforce a citation. Congress does have the power to defund all or parts of the Justice Department, but there’s more to lose than to gain there. If this wasn’t an election year, you wouldn’t be hearing about a contempt citation.
And to sweeten the spectacle even further, Sen. Kyle of Arizona is already talking about impeaching Obama if the latter is reelected. Ain’t we lucky?
getalife
June 27th, 2012
2:49 pm
crier,
Your party is mad at Holder for stopping their voter id cheating.
It’s playing politics.
New to politics?
Towncrier
June 27th, 2012
2:50 pm
“I never said that Democrats don’t also have sins, but I am pointing to the very lopsided nature of what’s going on right now. Perpetuating lies and sensationalism is happening far more from the GOP side these days. It’s not even close to being a “both sides” thing in any equitable sense.”
I don’t agree with your assessment, Adam. Bush, whatever you might think of his policies, was vilified every bit as much as Obama by the left. And Clinton before him. And Reagan before him.
But I am NOT talking about politicians in my original post, Adam. I am talking about you and me and the electorate that places these people in office.
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
June 27th, 2012
2:50 pm
JAMVET et al,
I’m not by any stretch an advocate of BUSH but this guy Barry’s record is an embarrassment….deficit to all new heights, crap healthcare bill, continued many policies of Bush’s despite campaign rhetoric to the contrary, failed stimulus and cronyism that cost us billions to mention a few of his “accomplishments”..
stands for decibels
June 27th, 2012
2:51 pm
something is burning in those files…
if I had to wager, it will be some mildly embarrassing internal email about how wussy Team Obama could be last year when it came to placating the ravenous needs of the gun lobby.
The possibility that it’s anything like the crazy “we gotta keep a lid on the truth about Operation RealMerkan Castration!” imaginings approaches one in infinity.
Brosephus™
June 27th, 2012
2:53 pm
http://nraila.org/media/7733622/cc-letter-to-issa.pdf
There’s the letter that NRA-ILA Executive Director, Chris Cox sent to Rep. Issa. You’ll probably gloss over that last paragraph where they state this contempt vote will be used in their future candidate evaluations.
http://www.nraila.org/
Look under the news and issues column for today’s “news”….
June 27, 2012
Obama to shoot down armed pilots
June 27, 2012
Issa letter hammers Obama on operation ‘Fast and Furious’
June 27, 2012
Issa, White House clash over Fast and Furious executive privilege
June 27, 2012
Issa’s right: Tougher gun laws Fast and Furious goal
June 27, 2012
Holder in peril as Dems break ranks on contempt resolution
What we’re all witnessing is a well orchestrated witch hunt. The more I look, the less I actually see any investigation of the ATF and more of a concerted hunt with Holder as the chosen prey.
getalife
June 27th, 2012
2:53 pm
The gop refused to get the agents to testify under oath in the hearing.
Their leader too.
It is obvious unless you are inflicted with the mental defect of conservatism.
godless heathen
June 27th, 2012
2:54 pm
toxic concentrations are a function of exposure time as well as other variables. I am disturbed that you are not aware of this if you are in any way responsible for establishing industry guidelines for exposure to toxic compounds.
Tax, I’m well aware of that and have been trying to explain it to you, but I guess I am not doing a very good job. 5 ppb benzene is not toxic. The levels that it is toxic at, even over long exposure times, are much higher.
I have to get back to calculating some risk reduction standards for various VOCs. I will be calculating standards based on multiple media and exposure pathways. My results will be reviewed and accepted by the EPA. Too bad I don’t know what I am doing (sarc).
Jm-pass TSPLOST silly people
June 27th, 2012
2:54 pm
Getalife 2:29
Stevie Ray..Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right..here I am...
June 27th, 2012
2:57 pm
Granny,
Always appreciate your commentary. As i recall, the last 2 Bush years where marked by a DEM controlled congress….spending spree seemed to take severe downward spiral at that time….
Brosephus™
June 27th, 2012
2:57 pm
Three others have joined the cat from Utah…a lot of risk given the power BO and the DEM’s have to screw this guy next time around.
The Number 2 Dem in the House has already gone on record saying that he expects Democrats to do what they have to do in order to save their political ass. If I were a moderate Dem in a Republican district, I’d vote for contempt if I wanted to return to DC. This whole thing is nothing but political Kabuki theatre. Based on current laws, there was nothing that the ATF agents could do even after tracking those purchases when the AUSA’s wouldn’t prosecute. They even tried going to the State Attorney’s office with no luck.
I bet that if Holder stepped down, Issa wouldn’t say another damned thing about F&F at all.
JamVet
June 27th, 2012
3:00 pm
I’m not by any stretch an advocate of BUSH but I would never dare touch, in any real way, his irrefutably beyond catastrophic record of needless death and utter devastation. Not only would I not speak of it in any detail, I won’t even make mention of any of it.
Nor would I dare mention his insanely low, never before seen, “approval” (LOL) rating when he and the most incompetent VP in American history skedaddled from Washington.
Nor would I even breathe a breath about how a staggering 50% of the people polled as he left office (in disgrace), said he was the worst ever.
I guess with all of that, I really was a big Bush fan. And that is why I would have the temerity to write something as bizarre as I did about the middling, mediocre BHO…
G Mare 71(PLEASE VOTE NO ON TSPLOST)
June 27th, 2012
3:01 pm
Old Timer, “horse hockey?”
My dad used to say, “horse puckey.”
Lord Help Us
June 27th, 2012
3:01 pm
‘I bet that if Holder stepped down, Issa wouldn’t say another damned thing about F&F at all.’
What steps has Issa’s committee recommended to reduce/eliminate straw purchases of guns?
Adam
June 27th, 2012
3:02 pm
Towncrier: I don’t agree with your assessment, Adam. Bush, whatever you might think of his policies, was vilified every bit as much as Obama by the left. And Clinton before him. And Reagan before him.
That’s not the indicator. The indicator is what the people DO in office. Newt was special during the Clinton years, and maybe some other single or handful of people had issues, but other than that most of the time there wasn’t bloc opposition to EVERYTHING just because the President at the time was for it. Now, today, Republicans just lockstep vote on damn near everything, sometimes even the most innocuous routine business.
stands for decibels
June 27th, 2012
3:04 pm
has anyone mentioned why it is that there is no Director of the ATF but, rather, still just an “Acting Director?”
Brosephus™
June 27th, 2012
3:04 pm
What steps has Issa’s committee recommended to reduce/eliminate straw purchases of guns?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk_-XWpUFmU&feature=fvwrel
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 27th, 2012
3:04 pm
I think F&F was part of Newt’s secret plan to arm the entire world. Well there, some “people have said it” so its now up to the GOPpers to prove it is not correct. Got evidence to prove that wrong?
stands for decibels
June 27th, 2012
3:05 pm
reduce/eliminate straw purchases of guns?
Reduce? Eliminate? what kinda commie talk is that.
Brosephus™
June 27th, 2012
3:06 pm
dB
Political gamesmanship. The longer an agency goes without a director, the more it becomes ineffective. You can’t campaign against broken government if you don’t break it.
Lord Help Us
June 27th, 2012
3:08 pm
Brosephus @ 3:04:
boom…
Towncrier
June 27th, 2012
3:09 pm
“I say that DC is nothing but a reflection of us as a whole. They get away with what we allow them to get away with. If we were truly upset at the shenanigans and jackassery that was widespread there, we wouldn’t have historical re-election rates in the mid 80% range. If there is fault, it lies with us voters.”
And that is why, somehow, we really need a grass root movement comprised of people with divergent who nonetheless are in agreement on various issues and insist that candidates be committed to implementing changes along the lines we have proposed.
Mama Says
June 27th, 2012
3:11 pm
Getalife,
Why can’t holder just turn over all the documents ?
Isn’t it that simple ?
And how can anyone get Holder if he hasn’t done anything wrong ?
Adam
June 27th, 2012
3:16 pm
Why can’t holder just turn over all the documents ?
Some documents he can’t turn over because it would be illegal for him to do so.
As for “getting” Holder, holding a contempt VOTE doesn’t actually “get” him at all.
carlosgvv
June 27th, 2012
3:18 pm
Brosephus – 2:44
It’s no secret that some politicians will do anything to get elected and re-elected.
Granny Godzilla - Union Thugette
June 27th, 2012
3:19 pm
Stevie Ray
can you please document that severe downturn in spending…..
TaxPayer
June 27th, 2012
3:19 pm
godless,
your earlier posts conflict with your latest but I am glad to hear that you now understand better the definition of “toxic”. I’ll still sleep better at night knowing that the EPA is there to safeguard us from exposure to 10 ppb and in fact are pushing for 0 ppb, with good reason. And what do you think about those field measurements of benzene that were well in excess of any acceptable level of benzene in water except for perhaps by the Koch crooks and their supporters. You seem to be overtly fixated on this one number from the EPA. Is that by diversionary design. By the way, how did you come to settle on that handle of yours.
getalife
June 27th, 2012
3:21 pm
The documents are sealed by executive privilege.
The issue is over.
Get over it.
Brosephus™
June 27th, 2012
3:22 pm
Towncrier
I think our population is too selfish to do something like that. That would require some amount of acquiescence of what we want as an individual in order to pursue what would be best for us all. Unless the group is in complete agreement on everything, I don’t see how it would function or even last for a significant time period.
Take this blog as an example of such. There are people here who differ in ideologies, yet agree on some topics. The fact that we know this still does not stop things from devolving into ideological pizzing contests here on a daily basis.
Mama Says
June 27th, 2012
3:23 pm
Well Adam if it is illegal to turn them over Obama would not have to hide them behind executive privlege would he ?
Not trying to be smart but if it’s illegal it’s illegal right ?
getalife
June 27th, 2012
3:25 pm
mama,
They passed a insider trading bill because the gop leader changed his investments after a meeting with treasury.
Lets get real on illegal.
Mr_B
June 27th, 2012
3:27 pm
Three others have joined the cat from Utah…a lot of risk given the power BO and the DEM’s have to screw this guy next time around.
Given that the contempt citation will die in the Senate anyway, there is little risk. Democrats don’t demand the kind of blind party loyalty characteristic of Republicans.
Cite me for contempt of Congress. I’ll proudly plead guilty as charged.
getalife
June 27th, 2012
3:29 pm
Mr. B,
Pardon him.
Mama Says
June 27th, 2012
3:30 pm
You know getalife
If a border agent is killed by American guns being given to the drug smugglers and you don’t want to know everything about a program like that you are the one that should get over it.
It’s stupid period.
You are arguing against our right to know not only how he got killed but who was stupid enough to give them the guns.
Seems to me Holder could release everything. He is not bound from releasing the Bush white house documents. If you are concerned about the witch hunt then release everyone’s part, from both administrations.
getalife
June 27th, 2012
3:31 pm
mama,
They made some changes after screwing up.
Your party is playing politics off his death.
Shame on you.
Adam
June 27th, 2012
3:31 pm
Well Adam if it is illegal to turn them over Obama would not have to hide them behind executive privlege would he ?
Not trying to be smart but if it’s illegal it’s illegal right ?
Different sets of documents were covered by executive privilege. The documents that were illegal to turn over were grand jury transcripts.
Mama Says
June 27th, 2012
3:32 pm
Come on getalife there were 27 senators who changed their portfolios they werent all republicans.
But I still don’t get your point.
So because politicians got insider info on trading we are forbidden from seeing who did what with gun smuggling ? Really ?
getalife
June 27th, 2012
3:33 pm
mama,
It is not illegal if they do it.
Your party proved nixon right.
Joseph
June 27th, 2012
3:34 pm
I got a feeling that Jay is probably going for the global warming angle for tomorrows tripe.. Of course since its gonna be a bad day for Oblama…
Mama Says
June 27th, 2012
3:36 pm
Ok if I agree bush started it how am I playing politics ? I would think everyone would want to know who did what.
By the way if all the republicans are wanting the documents and all of the dems refuse to force holder to give them up why is it the dems are not playing politics ?
I also have trouble understanding your logic on the border agent.
If republicans want the entire story how are democrats in the right by refusing to give it.
getalife
June 27th, 2012
3:37 pm
President Obama is going to Colorado Friday .
After the sc rules yes on the bill and gop over reach playing politics with an agent’s death, it will be a good day for our President.
Adam
June 27th, 2012
3:37 pm
Honestly I can’t wait for tomorrow’s decision, which I think will be mandate overturned only, and then Obama will respond, probably in a usually brilliant way, and piss all you guys off that you didn’t think he would do what he did, or something. It’s like wanting to see someone’s next move in a high stakes game, because they’re so good at playing it.
Joseph
June 27th, 2012
3:38 pm
What’s Barry and Withholder hiding….. Just release the docs and Republicans won’t have to have a contempt vote…..
Adam
June 27th, 2012
3:38 pm
I also have trouble understanding your logic on the border agent.
Likewise
Brosephus™
June 27th, 2012
3:39 pm
You are arguing against our right to know not only how he got killed but who was stupid enough to give them the guns.
http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/
Ten days after the meeting with Hurley, a Saturday, Jaime Avila, a transient, admitted methamphetamine user, bought three WASR-10 rifles at the Lone Wolf Trading Company in Glendale, Ariz. The next day, a helpful Lone Wolf employee faxed Avila’s purchase form to ATF to flag the suspicious activity. It was the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday weekend, so the agents didn’t receive the fax until Tuesday, according to a contemporaneous case report. By that time, the legally purchased guns had been gone for three days. The agents had never seen the weapons and had no chance to seize them. But they entered the serial numbers into their gun database. Two of these were later recovered at Brian Terry’s murder scene.
….
By the end of July 2010, the Fast and Furious investigation was largely complete. The agents had sent prosecutors 20 names for immediate indictment, Jaime Avila’s among them. His purchase of the three WASR-10s were listed among his criminal acts. On Aug. 17, 2010, ATF agents met in Phoenix with prosecutors, including U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke. According to two people present, the ATF presented detailed evidence, including the fact that their suspects had purchased almost 2,000 guns, and pushed for indictments. A month later, on Sept. 17, an ATF team—this time including ATF director Kenneth Melson—met with prosecutors again and again pushed for action. The sides agreed to aim for indictments by October, according to one person in attendance.
But as weeks and then months passed, prosecutors did not issue indictments. The ATF agents grew increasingly concerned. By December, prosecutors had dropped Avila’s name from the indictment list for what they deemed a lack of evidence.
Only when Terry, the U.S. Border Patrol agent, was murdered in December 2010 did the prosecutors act. Voth’s agents arrested Avila within 24 hours of Terry’s death. On Jan. 19, 2011, a federal grand jury indicted him and 19 other suspects. (Avila has since pleaded guilty to dealing guns without a license).
Seems that the person responsible for giving them the guns plead guilty after being arrested. Had US attorneys been a bit more proactive in actually trying to prosecute straw purchases and such, maybe BP Agent Terry might still be patrolling Arizona today. We’ll never know. Funny that a pro-guns all the time lobby can weaken laws to let this happen, and people choose to focus on someone who’s actually trying to do something instead of looking to the true source of the problem which is the legislators themselves. It is possible to have sensible gun laws to combat crime without infringing on the rights of lawful bearers. However, any attempt at such is portrayed as “OMG THEY’RE TRYIN TO TAKE MY GUNS!!!!” hysteria instead of something sensible being accomplished.
Joseph
June 27th, 2012
3:39 pm
Adam:
Oblama won’t say anything unless its later on in the afternoon when they get their message together and typed up on the teleprompter for him to read…
Mama Says
June 27th, 2012
3:41 pm
Getalife,
You are stuck on fighting aren’t you ?
I have agreed bush started it, said his documents should be looked at also and you hit me with insider trading and Nixon ?
I was 6 when Nixon was president and find it interesting that in your hard headed attempt at being partisan you don’t have a problem with our country giving guns to drug dealers.
Why is this not common sence for all of us ?
If holder did nothing wrong why are you guys so scared for him that you are insistent on keeping a stupid policy hidden ?
Joseph
June 27th, 2012
3:43 pm
getalife:
Of course he’s going to Colorado to campaign. He hasn’t talked to the Gov in 15 days about the catastrophic wildfires ripping through the state…
getalife
June 27th, 2012
3:43 pm
mama,
Why can’t you get over it?
Your party is playing politics with it silly.
Joseph
June 27th, 2012
3:44 pm
Mama Says:
Bush didn’t start F & F… Thats a lie libs love to throw out there…
getalife
June 27th, 2012
3:44 pm
joey,
Stop lying con.
You bugging his phone con?