GOP: Massive campaign donations should be secret
“WASHINGTON — During their long campaign to loosen rules on campaign money, conservatives argued that there was a simpler way to prevent corruption: transparency. Get rid of limits on contributions and spending, they said, but make sure voters know where the money is coming from.
Today, with those fundraising restrictions largely removed, many conservatives have changed their tune. They now say disclosure could be an enemy of free speech.
High-profile donors could face bullying and harassment from liberals out to “muzzle” their opponents, Sen. Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) said in a recent speech.
Corporations could be subject to boycotts and pickets, warned the Wall Street Journal editorial page this spring.
Democrats “want to intimidate people into not giving to these conservative efforts,” said Republican strategist Karl Rove on Fox News. “I think it’s shameful.”
The Times’ story goes on to document a wide-ranging effort by conservative groups to undermine, dismantle and evade laws intended to force disclosure of who is giving how much money to who. They are also aggressively abusing a loophole in regulations that allow nonprofit groups to collect hundreds of millions of dollars in anonymous donations — under the guise that they are social-welfare organizations — and use that anonymous money to buy campaign ads.
The Federal Election Commission, which has the legal authority and even obligation to intervene, has been rendered incapable of doing so. In an all-too-familiar pattern, the commission’s three Republican members are blocking its three Democratic members from taking action to force disclosure that the law clearly requires. (See Van Hollen v. FEC).
As a result, it is becoming increasingly difficult for the public and the media to “follow the money,” the traditional means to trace how big money in the political system produces favorable outcomes for those doing the giving.
The excuse for such secrecy is that large donors fear a backlash should their involvement become public. Poor little sensitive dears.
What do they think happens when John Q. Public writes a letter to the editor of the local newspaper, puts a campaign sign in his front yard or a bumper sticker on his car?
Why should they be exempt from disclosing contributions measured in the millions of dollars, while Jane Q. Public’s little $500 contribution to a candidate ends up in a FEC database accessible to her employer, her family and friends and everyone else with an Internet connection?
As one prominent jurist noted back in 2010:
“Requiring people to stand up in public for their political acts fosters civic courage, without which democracy is doomed. For my part, I do not look forward to a society which, thanks to the Supreme Court, campaigns anonymously and even exercises the direct democracy of initiative and referendum hidden from public scrutiny and protected from the accountability of criticism.”
Of course, given that the jurist in question was Justice Antonin Scalia, he may be singing a different tune now, given the partisan turn this issue has taken.
– Jay Bookman
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757 comments Add your comment
Joseph
June 27th, 2012
1:21 pm
Granny Godzilla – Union Thugette:
Read the link I gave you…
Granny Godzilla - Union Thugette
June 27th, 2012
1:21 pm
Joseph
From TPM
A top Democrat tasked with winning back the House of Representatives isn’t upset with vulnerable Democrats who have decided to skip the party’s national convention in Charlotte, N.C. – a growing list that includes several candidates DCCC Chairman Steve Israel is helping win election to the House in November. In fact, the chairman thinks it’s a great idea. “If they want to win an election, they need to be in their districts,” Israel said at a Reuters event in Washington Tuesday.
Brosephus™
June 27th, 2012
1:22 pm
Paul
You already knew the answer, but I applaud your optimism at the idea that somebody will actually step forward to defend something Jay’s hashing out. I think they’re much better at deflection and stuff. Defense is not a strong suit for some posters here.
Paul
June 27th, 2012
1:22 pm
Steve
Ever thought how it would come across if, when Lieberman was running on the VP slot, he was referred to as “Mr. Magical Skullcap”?
Granny Godzilla - Union Thugette
June 27th, 2012
1:22 pm
Joseph
June 27th, 2012
1:21 pm
Granny Godzilla – Union Thugette:
Read the link I gave you…
…..i did….
Granny Godzilla – Union Thugette
June 27th, 2012
1:19 pm
Granny Godzilla – Union Thugette
June 27th, 2012
1:09 pm
Hey Joseph
Tell us what happens after the vote, will ya’?
2nd Request
3rd Request
josef
June 27th, 2012
1:23 pm
USinUK
You got room for me over there in that tiny apartment without (need of) air conditioning? It’s supposed to be up to 103 here tomorrow…spare us a thought…
josef
June 27th, 2012
1:25 pm
PAUL
Nyanh…he’d be Beanie Boy…
JamVet
June 27th, 2012
1:27 pm
In all fairness, his real home is Cayman Islands,
(home is where the bank is)
Too funny.
Does anyone know if he is taking his “Every Millionaire Counts” tour there?
Paul
June 27th, 2012
1:27 pm
josef
Thbbppppttttttttttttttt!
Mighty Righty
June 27th, 2012
1:29 pm
The frustration exhibited here by Jay is that Obama’s well of corrupt donors has run dry. The DNC is short 26 million dollars to pay for their convention expense inspite of getting 50 million in taxpayer funds. The convention begins Labor Day and they have had four years to prepare, but like their treatment of the federal budget, they simply aren’t prepared. Then Obama himself now admits he will not achieve his campaign finance goals. Again no surprise. He can’t do a budget for the governent or even one for him self. The well is dry. His big contributors are tired of his begging. I heard one campaign advisor say that events that a month ago would raise ten million dollars are now raising $500,000. The enthusiasm is gone. Democrats are bailing out of the convention. No successes to run on. Friday’s big drive to improve standing among hispanics has not caused the hispanic approval needle to move even one point. However it may have caused a drop in his over all numbers. Nothing but bad news. Panic has set in. A loss yesterday in the Supreme Court and another looms tommorrow.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
June 27th, 2012
1:30 pm
Matti:
See you on the field of battle !
JamVet:
It’s all whether you win or lose ………… had Washington, et al lost ……. they would have all been hanged as traitors ……………………
However, note that Jefferson Davis/Robert E. Lee, et al were not hung ………… and not even prosecuted. If you want to discuss that later tonight and the reason why just remind me.
Have to run …………. everyone be nice and NO name calling !
Joe Hussein Mama
June 27th, 2012
1:31 pm
T. Dude — “Your boy is getting creamed, by 15 points, in his home state, Mass.
Don’t think any prez candidate has ever won when losing his own state.”
If by “home state,” you mean ‘candidate’s declared state of residency at the time of the election,’ it has happened three times.
Nixon in 1968 (lost NY)
Wilson in 1916 (lost NJ)
Polk in 1844 (lost TN)
Brosephus™
June 27th, 2012
1:32 pm
Paul
If you get a chance, check out Fortune’s story on the Fast and the Furious investigation they did. They got a chance to look at documents first hand and even include a few in their story. It doesn’t have the same storyline as what’s been told thus far.
http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/
There’s enough info in there to cast doubts on the intent of those who are seeking what they call an investigation into the whole ordeal.
josef
June 27th, 2012
1:33 pm
Lee/Davis not hung? They weren’t hanged, but you’d have to ask Gen. Cleburne or Judah P if they were hung or not…
And, yes, Scout, you’ve half-assed redeemed yourself with me by not falling prey to you hate monger peer’s attempts to rile…keep it up, Mec, you’re making progress, but I AM keeping an eye on you (and that pink flamingo tattoo!)
Joseph
June 27th, 2012
1:33 pm
Granny Godzilla – Union Thugette:
I realize libs are dense but really? Do you really think they would be skipping the party’s convention if the nominee wasn’t so inept???
Matti
June 27th, 2012
1:33 pm
Breakdown of the skip-the-convention decision:
Every four years, the level of electronic surveillance is much higher, and the expectation of privacy is much lower, than it was even four years prior. For folks who remember how unfettered these kind of celebratory functions used to be, a modern political convention would have to hold an excitement level on par with the game room at the local multiplex theater. Add to that the location: Charlotte, NC, and the traditional appeal of escaping one’s job and family for a few days of drinking and debauchery falls even further. (Not that there aren’t hookers and drag queens in Charlotte. There are! But not enough to make the lack of privacy and ensuing scandals worth it.)
Those of you who think the Dem convention skippers want to distance themselves from Obama have it backwards. Obama is their excuses for skipping, not the reason!
RB from Gwinnett
June 27th, 2012
1:33 pm
Where in the US constitution does it say anybody deserves healthcare as someone claimed USinUk deserves?
And I wouldn’t have as much issue with all this social crap if EVERYBODY was actually footing the bill, but thats not what’s going on here. You people are voting yourselves legalized theft of other peoples earnings and don’t even have the decency to thank them.
JamVet
June 27th, 2012
1:34 pm
had Washington, et al lost ……. they would have all been hanged as traitors.
By foreigners. Not by Americans.
You secessionists were the original American traitors.
But it’s all good. The right side prevailed!
stands for decibels
June 27th, 2012
1:34 pm
he’d be Beanie Boy…
I’m probably the only one here flashing back to the Fernwood 2Nite “Talk to a Jew” segment…
Joseph
June 27th, 2012
1:34 pm
Granny Godzilla – Union Thugette:
What vote do you keep referring to?
stands for decibels
June 27th, 2012
1:35 pm
it has happened three times.
Four, really… oh well, let’s not go there.
godless heathen
June 27th, 2012
1:35 pm
“earthworks simply took the EPA 5ppb upper limit and labeled it in a way that you disagree with.”
That’s not what they did. They called a concentration of 5 ppb toxic. Not only would I disagree with that, but anyone who knows anything about the subject would also. It has the appearance of being an attempt to over state the threat of pollution from fracking.
JamVet
June 27th, 2012
1:36 pm
Where in the US constitution does it say anybody deserves education, roads, etc.
stands for decibels
June 27th, 2012
1:36 pm
Where in the US constitution does it say anybody deserves healthcare
same place it says you can bust people for possessing stuff that grows in the ground, mannn…
Joe Hussein Mama
June 27th, 2012
1:37 pm
RB — “You people are voting yourselves legalized theft of other peoples earnings and don’t even have the decency to thank them.”
The next time you talk to Mobil or Sunoco, be sure to ask them when I’m going to get a thank-you card for all the years of subsidies my taxes have contributed to on their part.
Brosephus™
June 27th, 2012
1:37 pm
A loss yesterday in the Supreme Court and another looms tommorrow.
Only at Jay’s can batting .750 be considered losing…
Oscar
June 27th, 2012
1:37 pm
I predict they will strike down three provision and uphold the other provision by a unanimous vote. — wait . . .
Granny Godzilla - Union Thugette
June 27th, 2012
1:37 pm
Joseph
I will play your game…you want me to believe you are vacuus enough not to know the question is aboit the contempt of congress vote.
What happens after?
Paul
June 27th, 2012
1:38 pm
Brosephus
Thanks, I will.
Was listening to the news at lunchtime. Seems some are questioning Issa as to why he won’t call the head of ATF to testify. Maybe it has something to do with the fact he’s said he never briefed Holder on F&F. Also said Issa refuses to call anyone who was responsible for implementation, examining the controls and oversight and metrics they developed. I’m sure it has nothing to do with the fact those people would all be Bush officials.
Issa’s a zealot on a mission. Rationality is out the window.
Joseph
June 27th, 2012
1:38 pm
Megan Kelly is dominating lib dummy Chris Hahn… LOL…
Oscar
June 27th, 2012
1:39 pm
Enter your comments hereWhere in the US constitution does it say anybody deserves healthcare
_____
I don’t believe it says anyone deserves anything. Better read it again. Talks about people having rights to certain things.
Jay
June 27th, 2012
1:41 pm
“And I wouldn’t have as much issue with all this social crap if EVERYBODY was actually footing the bill, but thats not what’s going on here.
Hmmm. So RB supports the ObamaCare mandate that everybody buy health insurance. Who knew?
Joseph
June 27th, 2012
1:41 pm
Granny Godzilla – Union Thugette:
OK… Then they will move forward with criminal charges… Or perhaps go to court to acquire the documents to get to the bottom of this cover up… The Terry family deserves answers!!
stands for decibels
June 27th, 2012
1:43 pm
The Terry family
…will be forgotten by conservatives, as was Robert Krentz’ family after they were no longer needed.
josef
June 27th, 2012
1:43 pm
SFD
I couldn’t get it on the link…but I do remember it!
Brosephus™
June 27th, 2012
1:44 pm
Paul
I asked the same thing about Issa’s inquest. I’m wondering why he’s so focused on Holder, when it was an ATF operation. Reading that article highlights the fact that AUSA’s wouldn’t prosecute the cases the ATF Agents were presenting for what they said was a lack of evidence or probable cause.
That article explains how they got the serial numbers of the guns used in the Terry shooting. You also get more insight into what was going on in the actual ATF office in Arizona. It’s worth the read, and it actually opened my eyes to information that I had not seen/heard before.
Joseph
June 27th, 2012
1:45 pm
stands for decibels:
And after the election Obama will be forgotten the same way he forgot Wright, Ayers, and Jackson…
stands for decibels
June 27th, 2012
1:46 pm
but I do remember it!
yay!
I distinctly recall one of the phone-in questions was: “I want to know, why isn’t he wearin’ the beanie?”
weetamoe
June 27th, 2012
1:47 pm
Who are the *us* of whom you speak? What is that *torture group* of which you speak? What big big generalities you have, Granny!
JamVet
June 27th, 2012
1:48 pm
“We the people are voting ourselves legalized theft of other peoples earnings that were already stolen from we the people and they didn’t even have the decency to thank us.”
That you enjoy that they steal your money is OK by me.
Just get the hell out of the way when it comes to them taking mine.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 27th, 2012
1:48 pm
I am sure in Joseph’s world, Obama will be forgotten just like Carter….. oh wait…. who will they blame for Bush’s depression and Obama’s recovery of the economy, lol.
Mighty Righty
June 27th, 2012
1:49 pm
I saw the funniest bit on TV this morning. Apparently there was some kind of anti Carl Rove demonstration in Washington D.C. either yesterday or over the weekend. I can;t grasp the goal. No Republican would be stupid enough to demonstrate against David Axelrod. I mean, what in the H—could be accomplished? Anyway, a reporter asked the participants, “Who is Carl Rove?” Not a one knew who Carl Rove is! There were answers like, “he is a guy.” Another actually said he was running for president. I am not kidding! Most admitted they had no idea who he was. But the hemming and hawing and the looks on their faces was priceless. Now everyone of them was a Democrat. Everyone appeared to be of voting age. This is evidence of why it is possible for someone like Obama to be elected and possiblby reelected in spite of his demonstrated incompetence. Then it hit me. TV networks are constantly looking for new entertainment. So called realism programs are the rage. What could be more entertaining than a show where the host would ask Democrats simple questions and see if any of them could give an intelligent answer. It would be the funniest show on TV.
Granny Godzilla - Union Thugette
June 27th, 2012
1:50 pm
Joseph….
Who will go forward with criminal charges?
Oh, re not attending the convention….under some circumstances it makes perfect sense not to go.
Take Former President Bush….it makes loads of sense for him not to go.
JamVet
June 27th, 2012
1:51 pm
You guppies need to turn off daytime Tard TV.
No wonder you neoliberals are so screwed up…
Granny Godzilla - Union Thugette
June 27th, 2012
1:53 pm
stands….and like Pat Tillmans family too….
TaxPayer
June 27th, 2012
1:53 pm
godless,
Take it up with the EPA and perhaps the AT(T is for Toxic)SDR, if you disagree with their determination of what defines a toxic concentration in drinking water. (Send me a copy of your analysis as well. I’d just love to read what you got beyond opinion.):
EPA has set 5 ppb as the maximum permissible level of benzene in drinking water. EPA has set a goal of 0 ppb for benzene in drinking water and in water such as rivers and lakes because benzene can cause leukemia. EPA estimates that 10 ppb benzene in drinking water that is consumed regularly or exposure to 0.4 ppb in air over a lifetime could cause a risk of one additional cancer case for every 100,000 exposed persons. EPA recommends 200 ppb as the maximum permissible level of benzene in water for short-term exposures (10 days) for children.
Paul
June 27th, 2012
1:54 pm
Brosephus
I shouldn’t, but I do feel a bit discomfited by Issa, as he’s from my hometown. It’s kinda like having Perry as your governor.
Issa’s a far cry from the last guy I remember from that discrict (although I was long gone by that race) Rep Ron Packard. Here’s a bit of trivia- Packard lost in the primary by less than 100 votes. He ran in the general as a – get this – write-in candidate and became the first write-in candidate to win as an independent by beating the Democratic and Republican on-ballot candidates. He was the third successful write-in and did in fact return to the Republican Party when he went to Congress.
Jack
June 27th, 2012
1:55 pm
I’ll disclose mine if you’ll disclose yours.
josef
June 27th, 2012
1:55 pm
SFD
One of the “best” fights I ever got into as a kid was when somebody called me “beanie boy”
As a teenager one of my best friends was Randy Martinez. He opened a can of whoop-ass on somebody who called him a “beaner.” He didn’t get it at first when I laughed and said, “funny, you don’t look Jewish.” Took a lil cross cultural ’splainin’
Paul
June 27th, 2012
1:56 pm
Mighty Righty
“Who is Carl Rove?” Not a one knew who Carl Rove is! ”
They were probably thinking of Karl Rove and so didn’t know who the questioner was talking about.
Adam
June 27th, 2012
1:56 pm
RB: Adam, how is that 6 month old survey coming along? When are you going to bless us with your made up BS findings?
I have become busy more recently, as you may note from my decreased amount of responses on the blog. Not that you’re checking up on me or anything
I’ll give you the study when I’m done. I’m sure it won’t be nearly the kind of level you might expect from an organization that can do stuff like this rather quickly, so you’re just going to have to be patient.
Joe Hussein Mama
June 27th, 2012
1:57 pm
Righty — “So called realism programs are the rage. What could be more entertaining than a show where the host would ask Democrats simple questions and see if any of them could give an intelligent answer. It would be the funniest show on TV.”
Well, now you know how we feel every time *you* post something here. (laughing)
Paul
June 27th, 2012
1:57 pm
josef
As a southern California kid, thass funny!
They BOTH suck
June 27th, 2012
1:58 pm
Paul @ 1:56
As prone as I am to typos and misspelling I shouldn’t be laughing, but that was too funny
hahahahaha
haaaaaaaaaa
Adam
June 27th, 2012
1:59 pm
A dad: Joe Hussein, Adam, etc. Since I work,I don’t have the luxury to constantly check up on blogsd to see what’s said
You may have noticed I too do not have that luxury. But my comments on wanting what I want out of campaign finance reform are not about any one particular poster. So if any offense was taken by my comments on the matter, none was intended.
Paul
June 27th, 2012
2:00 pm
BOTH suck
I like subtlety.
Adam
June 27th, 2012
2:01 pm
RB: Perhaps the fear of it being the lie we keep telling you the evidence of actual European ruin proves it is? Don’t want to pay $1.83/litre for gas? $8€ big Mac meals don’t appeal to you? $250K€ apartment (800 sq ft) without AC doesn’t sound like utopia to you?
When did the UK become “Europe”?
getalife
June 27th, 2012
2:01 pm
Soros can donate a billion.
You wanted cons and you will get it.
Joe Hussein Mama
June 27th, 2012
2:02 pm
Key takeaway from Brosephus’ earlier link:
“Irony abounds when it comes to the Fast and Furious scandal. But the ultimate irony is this: Republicans who support the National Rifle Association and its attempts to weaken gun laws are lambasting ATF agents for not seizing enough weapons—ones that, in this case, prosecutors deemed to be legal.
Amazing how the supposed gun-grabbers of the Obama Administration weren’t grabbing ENOUGH guns for Congressional Republicans, and now Congressman Issa wants someone to burn for it.
Adam
June 27th, 2012
2:02 pm
RB: Where in the US constitution does it say anybody deserves healthcare as someone claimed USinUk deserves?
Where does it say that a mandate is forbidden? And if it DOES say that, how come the founding fathers themselves didn’t bring it up when they passed mandates under the first three Presidents?
They BOTH suck
June 27th, 2012
2:02 pm
off topic
Has anyone seen ir(Rational) on lately? I do not think I have noticed him on for awhile now.
Adam
June 27th, 2012
2:03 pm
You people are voting yourselves legalized theft of other peoples earnings and don’t even have the decency to thank them.
On the contrary. I thank them very much. Just not with a reward of tax cuts and godhood.
Billybob
June 27th, 2012
2:03 pm
keep pushing the ‘republicans buying the election’ template jay…..people have had it with liberal journalists and opinion people like you who always blame your opponents like elementary school kids instead of standing up for the results of your beliefs……i know why, b/c liberalism, socialism and statism that has run our country since pelosi assumed power is a failure……enjoy the nov beatdown lib
stands for decibels
June 27th, 2012
2:03 pm
They were probably thinking of Karl Rove and so didn’t know who the questioner was talking about.
There’s probably a kickass Tsar/Czar joke in there for someone willing to do the work.
a can of whoop-ass on somebody who called him a “beaner.”
great yarn, josef.
getalife
June 27th, 2012
2:03 pm
They never envisioned a corporate coup.
They would start another revolution.
Adam
June 27th, 2012
2:04 pm
Has anyone seen ir(Rational) on lately? I do not think I have noticed him on for awhile now.
That’s a good point. He probably got busier. I think a lot of people have gotten busier lately. Well, those of us that work, anyway (ZING!
)
Jefferson
June 27th, 2012
2:04 pm
If you sell someone a gun and they rob a liquor store, its the seller’s fault. BS.
Lord Help Us
June 27th, 2012
2:05 pm
‘From 2010, when Congress began investigating, to 2011, gun seizures by Group VII and the ATF’s three other groups in Phoenix dropped by more than 90%.’
If Issa’s stated intentions are true, his investigation has failed…Shameless…
Brosephus™
June 27th, 2012
2:05 pm
Paul: I shouldn’t, but I do feel a bit discomfited by Issa, as he’s from my hometown. It’s kinda like having Perry as your governor.
Those are two burdens that no sane person should have to bear.
They BOTH suck
June 27th, 2012
2:06 pm
Paul
I offered Mighty Righty $1000.00 last night to back up a “fantasy island” assertion he made. He wouldn’t even reply back to me.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 27th, 2012
2:06 pm
The constant admission by GOPpers that their party leaders were so stupid to constantly propose a unconstitutional mandate like that done by Mitt has to make you wonder how deep the stupid goes.
Adam
June 27th, 2012
2:06 pm
They BOTH suck: *blink* Fantasy island?
getalife
June 27th, 2012
2:07 pm
bilbob,
Why do you run from the truth?
Soros donating a billion is okay with you?
Joseph
June 27th, 2012
2:10 pm
Granny Godzilla – Union Thugette:
Who will go forward with criminal charges?
Holder, Obama, where ever the evidence leads….
Oh, re not attending the convention….under some circumstances it makes perfect sense not to go.
Sure its does when you have an inept leader….
Take Former President Bush….it makes loads of sense for him not to go.
He may be there.. I don’t know… And I know you don’t.. But the simple fact is dems are skipping at an alarming rate…
TaxPayer
June 27th, 2012
2:10 pm
And as for overstating any concerns, godless, what do you know, earthworks just copied that statement that bothers you so much straight from this report that they linked to. Then again, you know how alarmist those danged environmental working groups can be with their presentations of data and facts and such. If only they would stick to their opinions!
JamVet
June 27th, 2012
2:10 pm
“keep pushing the ‘republicans buying the election’ template jay…..
peoplebillybobhavehas had it with liberal journalists and opinion people like you…”A little intellectual honesty and courage please…
getalife
June 27th, 2012
2:10 pm
“House Majority Leader Mike Turzai (R-Allegheny) suggested that the House’s end game in passing the Voter ID law was to benefit the GOP politically.”
My bad, it was not the guv.
This is what the Holder bs is all about.
Paul
June 27th, 2012
2:10 pm
stands
“great yarn, josef.”
I pass the subtelty crown to you for the rest of the day. LOL!
BOTH suck
Haven’t seen (ir)Rational, but there are plenty here working hard to make sure they live up to his name.
Brosephus™
June 27th, 2012
2:12 pm
JHM
Lord Help Us beat me to the first posting of that link today, but as I told Paul, reading that gave me more insight into the actual ATF office than anything I’ve seen yet. The fact that Issa is so friggin’ focused on Holder without even nary a smidget of focus on the ATF or any of their personnel leads me to think that he’s out for a personal vendetta instead of actually conducting an investigation.
Not only that, but the actual “gun walking” operation was suggested and carried out by the whistleblower and was not a part of the Fast and Furious operation at all. To make things matter, even after suggesting and carrying out his operation, he failed to recover the guns.
There’s also a mention of the FBI being involved in the money used to purchase weapons, but I haven’t heard anybody from the FBI being called to the carpet either.
They BOTH suck
June 27th, 2012
2:12 pm
“Holder, Obama, where ever the evidence leads….”
You mean the evidence that Issa himself said on Sunday that he does not have in terms of any cover ups, etc?
That evidence?
getalife
June 27th, 2012
2:12 pm
Many cons left this blog because they can’t lie here.
Paul
June 27th, 2012
2:13 pm
Brosephus
“Those are two burdens that no sane person should have to bear.”
Fortunately, I’m not sane or it would really bother me….
BOTH suck
Maybe he was holding out for more?
getalife
June 27th, 2012
2:14 pm
Without voter id, the gop knows they are going to lose so they tried to cheat.
Holder stopped their cheating so they are playing politics.
Paul
June 27th, 2012
2:15 pm
“Many cons left this blog because they can’t lie here.”
Take heart, getalife. They’ll return with new names and old arguments.
stands for decibels
June 27th, 2012
2:15 pm
I have to say something about F&F.
The very first time I heard about it, there was zero doubt in my mind that the sole purpose of hyping this failed program was to eliminate from public discussion the existing phenomenon of US gun dealers supplying Mexican gangs. And on that score the right wing has already succeeded. they can crow (or not) about any dumb, essentially meaningless contempt finding they may vote on; they can argue with us about whether Issa is a crazy, or just craven.
But they won that battle already. Nobody is bothering to consider the role we play in Mexico’s horrific violence; we don’t even talk about the market we provide to fund all this stuff, except fleetingly. As is always the case, we’re down to arguing over which politician “won” or “lost” the week.
And on that cheery note, I think I’ll go eat a Glock…
godless heathen
June 27th, 2012
2:15 pm
Taxpayer,
I have no argument with EPA’s levels. They are what they are and they’ve spent $billions upon $billion researching.
Just look up toxic. Toxic /= anything near carcinogenic level.
Toxic is poisonous. Bad sick right now. Carcinogenic is long term threat.
You could drink 5 ppb benzene your whole life and never know it, unless you were one of the 1/10,000 people unfortunate enough to develop cancer from it.
They BOTH suck
June 27th, 2012
2:17 pm
Paul
He could be. I’m not saying that Holder is totally out of the woods or didn’t do anything, however when you get past the talking points and see that the NRA is now pressuring Dems to vote for contempt…… there certainly is politics being played by Issa.
I don’t have all the answers, but anyone can see that Issa is looking for a political win. Whether that is his main focus, I have no idea, but it is a focus
Towncrier
June 27th, 2012
2:17 pm
This blog, it seems to me, serves more as a forum for rants than anything else (not to say that constructive discussions do not occur). It is a microcosm of America of sorts – highly partisan and rigidly divided. I wonder if, at least on some issues, we can strive to come up with a solution for some of our nation’s ills.
Does anyone here NOT think that elected officials ought to be separated from money? I was watching 60 minutes recently and they aired the segment investigating how, until recently, senators and members of congress would use information they were privy to in order to make money on the stock market – in other words, they could legally practice insider trading. And we perhaps have all heard stories of perks received from lobbyists and the promise of making a lot of money as a lobbyist once out of office. Now, with the super PACs, many are alarmed that money is once more exerting undue influence upon government (by “buying” elections).
But I think the facts will show that almost everyone in DC and many in state government have dirtied their hands – Democrats and Republicans both. So what is the point of finger pointing over a “sin” of which both parties are guilty? A good question is this: can we come together as a grass roots organization on some issues to effect lasting and constructive change? For instance, while TBS and josef and I may disagree about a lot, we have general agreement about what to do about immigration reform. Can that not be true of other issues as well? Even with regard to gay marriage, can we not leave that to states to decide while at the same time at the federal level allow people to receive benefits if they are not “family” in a traditional sense (so long as they meet certain qualifications)?
It appears politicians in DC are more amenable to retaining and increasing power than they are to solving critical problems. We all lose if that scenario continues.
Brosephus™
June 27th, 2012
2:17 pm
dB
There is that point, and I think you stated it rather well. I’d suggest you eat a Reuben as opposed to a Glock, but that’s just me.
Lord Help Us
June 27th, 2012
2:17 pm
‘Not only that, but the actual “gun walking” operation was suggested and carried out by the whistleblower and was not a part of the Fast and Furious operation at all.’
Another, ‘not only that,’ but, if I wanted to…TODAY…I could go buy 20 guns, fill out the form, say on the form that they are for my own use, walk out of the store, sell/give/barter them to ANYONE, and, IF asked, simply say, ‘I changed my mind, I decided to get rid of them.’
‘Gun-walking’ is legal. The ATF operation had nothing to do with the agents death, what the buyer did in that case was, and is, legal…and happening today…
Adam
June 27th, 2012
2:17 pm
unless you were one of the 1/10,000 people unfortunate enough to develop cancer from it.
Or roughly 30,000 people from the general U.S. population.
getalife
June 27th, 2012
2:17 pm
Paul,
They are entertaining.
Brosephus™
June 27th, 2012
2:20 pm
Towncrier
I say that DC is nothing but a reflection of us as a whole. They get away with what we allow them to get away with. If we were truly upset at the shenanigans and jackassery that was widespread there, we wouldn’t have historical re-election rates in the mid 80% range. If there is fault, it lies with us voters.
Mighty Righty
June 27th, 2012
2:20 pm
The goal of “fast and furious” per the ATF and the Justice Department was to find out how guns originating in the United States were ending up in the hands of Mexican Drug Cartels.
If that were the goal, then why wouldn’t there have been some method of tracing the guns? Why wasn’t the Mexican Government made aware of our program to sell thousands of guns to Mexican Drug Cealers? Why wasn’t there an effort to infiltrate the illegal gun dealers?
In my opinion,t he program was never designed to achieve the goals it claims were the reason for fast and furious. It appears to me the real purpose was to put guns in the hands of Mexican drug cartels and lay the blame on legal gun dealers so the administration could use the “planted” evidence to support their anti gun agenda. The very first response to the discovery of fast and furious was to claimit was illegal gun sales caused the death of Brian Terry. The very people who knew the truth made that claim. Further, we are to believe that members of the administrationincluding Hillary Clinton and the President himself were openly promoting llaws to restrict gun sales were merely a coincidence while the fast and furious fraud was being perpetrated by the administration. The administration and its controlled press are calling the operation “botched”, nothing more than a mistake. Baloney! They got caught, that wasn’t supposed to happen. That is their meaning of botched.
Adam
June 27th, 2012
2:21 pm
Towncrier: For instance, while TBS and josef and I may disagree about a lot, we have general agreement about what to do about immigration reform. Can that not be true of other issues as well?
Of course. But the problem is with how politicians in office play around, and how the media portrays it, leaving us all with the impression that nothing can ever get done, and that IF it does, it’s a rarity, and there are implications that everyone got everything they wanted out of every deal that actually comes to fruition. And that’s just nonsense.
If you really think about it, the people who are playing the sensationalism card are the Republicans. Some to look good, and some to try to force getting their way on issues by trying to change everyone’s mind. And they start with a Nixon guy’s GOP TV (known today as Fox News).
Granny Godzilla - Union Thugette
June 27th, 2012
2:22 pm
Joseph
So you don’t know what will happen. mmmmm
Any idea what this will cost? As much as the WhiteWater dustup?
Inept leader? You mean like the guy who missed the whole
“OBL determined to attack” thing?
Now that’s inept!
.
godless heathen
my brother has that cancer related to benzene…..we’ve never had
any cancer in the family until this.
it’s very very nasty business.
no matter how long it takes for it to develop.
Oscar
June 27th, 2012
2:22 pm
Mondays decision on the immigration issue seemed to me to favor the federal government. Based on that, my predicition would be that the decision on Patient care tommow will also favor the federal government. Like on Monday, some of the provisions may be struck down, but most will be retained.
Overall the bill is unpopulat, but the parts about pre-existing conditions, life time caps, and preventing companines from dropping people from coverage when they become sick are extremely popular by the American public. Those will probably be kept.
Brosephus™
June 27th, 2012
2:23 pm
The ATF operation had nothing to do with the agents death, what the buyer did in that case was, and is, legal…and happening today…
And if you notice that the NRA is putting pressure on pols to vote for contempt, you understand why it is legal and why people want it to remain legal regardless of the hoopla. I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the motivation behind all of this.
First, it was Obama was going to take your guns away. After that never materialized, there had to be something nefarious to take Obama’s place. Fast and Furious just happened to be in the right place at the right time to be used for political purposes.
getalife
June 27th, 2012
2:24 pm
Looks like crier wants some hope and change.
When you hold your party accountable for their actions, it would be a good start.
.
Towncrier
June 27th, 2012
2:24 pm
“The fact that Issa is so friggin’ focused on Holder without even nary a smidget of focus on the ATF or any of their personnel leads me to think that he’s out for a personal vendetta instead of actually conducting an investigation.”
The main thing I am interested in learning through all of this, Brosephus, is if Holder and perhaps Obama knew and approved of the operation. Why? Because the DOJ under Holder rightly prosecuted gunwalking that occurred in a previous “operation” and to not do so now – for what ever reason – would be very, very wrong.