The other side of Romney’s success at Bain
Mitt Romney has made his success in the business world a central theme of his presidential campaign, suggesting that it demonstrates a level of economic understanding that President Obama cannot match.
But as the Washington Post documents, Romney and his company, Bain Capital, achieved that success in part by taking jobs once held by American workers and moving them overseas to places such as China and India, where those jobs could be performed more cheaply:
During the nearly 15 years that Romney was actively involved in running Bain, a private equity firm that he founded, it owned companies that were pioneers in the practice of shipping work from the United States to overseas call centers and factories making computer components, according to filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
While economists debate whether the massive outsourcing of American jobs over the last generation was inevitable, Romney in recent months has lamented the toll it’s taken on the U.S. economy. He has repeatedly pledged he would protect American employment by getting tough on China.
“They’ve been able to put American businesses out of business and kill American jobs,” he told workers at a Toledo fence factory in February. “If I’m president of the United States, that’s going to end.”….
The Post documents a series of cases in which Bain-related companies relocated customer-support, call-center and manufacturing operations overseas to cut costs and raise profits. In addition, Bain was deeply involved in the creation and expansion of Modus Media, which specialized in helping other companies relocate manufacturing facilities overseas:
“Modus Media grew rapidly. In December 1997, it announced it had contracted with Microsoft to produce software and training products at a center in Australia. Modus Media said it was already serving Microsoft from Asian locations in Singapore, South Korea, Japan and Taiwan and in Europe and the United States.
Two years later, Modus Media told the SEC it was performing outsource packaging and hardware assembly for IBM, Sun Microsystems, Hewlett-Packard Co. and Dell Computer Corp. The filing disclosed that Modus had operations on four continents, including Asian facilities in Singapore, Taiwan, China and South Korea, and European facilities in Ireland and France, and a center in Australia.
“Technology companies, in particular, have increasingly sought to outsource the business processes involved in their supply chains,” the filing said. “. . . We offer a range of services that provide our clients with a one-stop shop for their outsource requirements.”
According to a news release issued by Modus Media in 1997, its expansion of outsourcing services took place in close consultation with Bain. Terry Leahy, Modus’s chairman and chief executive, was quoted in the release as saying he would be “working closely with Bain on strategic expansion.” At the time, three Bain directors sat on the corporate board of Modus.”
For Mitt Romney the business person, such a record would be unremarkable. A lot of people have made a lot of money in the last 25 years by moving jobs offshore, and if Romney and Bain Capital were pioneers in the field, as the Post suggests, there was nothing unusual, illegal or even unethical in what they did. Speaking strictly in business terms, their job was to wring out inefficiencies and maximize shareholder profit in a global economy, not to protect the jobs of American workers, and as the Romney campaign likes to stress, they did their job very well and were well-rewarded for it.
For Romney the presidential candidate, however, the situation becomes more complicated. It’s one thing for Lee Raymond, then head of Exxon Mobil, to say that “I’m not a U.S. company and I don’t make decisions based on what’s good for the U.S.” In a business sense that may be understandable; in another sense it comes across as a grating reminder that the search for profit makes no allowance for national loyalty.
In Romney’s case, will an attitude that’s acceptable and perhaps even necessary in a modern business executive be equally acceptable in a person seeking to lead the country? For some Americans — especially those who have watched as their jobs were moved overseas — the details of how Romney achieved his remarkable financial success may turn out to matter a great deal.
– Jay Bookman
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598 comments Add your comment
gm
June 22nd, 2012
12:49 pm
Obama has saved millions of policemen, firemen, teachers jobs you will never hear about it at fox idiot news, 3 times college drop out Sean Hannity who hates the President and jealous of him and lets not forget the high school drop out Rush Limbaug, former top 20 dj, ex druger, boy these people really are qualified to take shots at the President a former Harverd Lawyer.
This shows why the right are a bunch of misguided Americans and would do any thing to destroy this great President who have kept this country secured for last 3 years what a bunch of idiots.
Towncrier
June 22nd, 2012
12:49 pm
“Joe Hussain – but wouldn’t national ID cards disenfranchise the poor. I mean how on earth are they going to get them if they can’t get a picture ID now.”
Was this said tongue-in-cheek?
Jm-pass TSPLOST silly people
June 22nd, 2012
12:49 pm
Obama should be outsourced to Greece
That’s where he belongs
josef
June 22nd, 2012
12:50 pm
SCOUT
And you seem to miss my whole point on double standard…just take a good look at that pack of moral degenerates calling to impeach him…Jeeeze, Louise…I guess, though, that would be a jury of his peers…
JKL2
June 22nd, 2012
12:50 pm
Bottom line up front: Any job Romney created is still one more than obama ever has.
obama: sucking off the public teet since 1961.
stands for decibels
June 22nd, 2012
12:50 pm
what’s a “sissy?” Is there something wrong with that?
Yes, if you’re Rip Van Winkle and awakening from your slumber that began sometime during the original run of My Three Sons.
Joe Hussein Mama
June 22nd, 2012
12:51 pm
0311 — “However, surely you realize that Obama’s policies are only making the issue worse by giving illegals the desire to stay, etc., etc., etc.”
I don’t understand. Don’t illegosos *already* have the desire to stay? How is the President giving them what they presumably already have?
Plus, the new policy doesn’t affect illegosos over a certain age, so Pedro the stonemason (who’s 45) is completely unaffected.
“TOTALLY sealing the borders is impossible and mass deportation is NOT going to happen but making it totally undesirable for illegals to want to stay here is very much doable.”
I agree. The way to do that is to prevent them from obtaining work — but to do that, we have to demonstrate to employers that it is going to HURT LIKE HELL if they get caught employing them. That means that companies like Tyson, Hormel, whoever — are going to take some hits, and we need lawmakers who aren’t going to vote to water that down just because Tyson or Hormel happen to wave a fat campaign contribution check at them.
Again — institute the ID card and put nasty teeth in the employment laws — illegosos will leave on their own.
“We must decrease and eventually take away all of the perks that make illegals want to stay here !”
I agree. However, profiling based on race — which seems to be how illegosos get caught today — is distressing and upsetting (rightly so) to Hispanics who are here legally. I used to travel a lot in my work, and after 9/11, my Hispanic wife quit coming inside the airport to meet me because of all the hassles she was getting. I don’t know if she was profiled as ‘possible illegoso’ or ’swarthy and possibly muslim,’ but it pizzed her off royally. And a pizzed-off wife makes for an unpleasant weekend home.
DHS, you were messing up my nooky plans!
“In my opinion it’s Obama that has made this political …………. not me …………. ”
IMO, it’s the GOP that did it. Think about this — imagine you’re walking down the street, carrying only what you have on you at this moment. You’re stopped by a cop, who demands to see proof of citizenship. He won’t let you go home, go back to your car or office, or call anyone. You have to prove your citizenship *on the spot,* or he says he’s taking you in.
How do you *prove* your citizenship?
Driver’s license? Nope.
SS card? Nope.
Military ID? Nope.
About the only way I can think of is if you carry one of these things ON you, and I don’t think most people do:
US Passport
Notarized copy of birth certificate
Naturalization documents
So the ‘papers, please’ laws, IMO, set an unreasonably high standard of proof — so high, in fact, that anyone stopped by the police is *virtually certain* to be unable to meet it.
This is why we need a national ID document. The civil libertarian in me intensely hates the idea, but it’s clear to me that there’s no other practical way to solve the problem.
Maybe you have ideas on how the national ID card could be done? Or things it could be used for?
barking frog
June 22nd, 2012
12:52 pm
0311
kamchak’s post is gone.
may have had consequences.
stands for decibels
June 22nd, 2012
12:54 pm
kamchak’s post is gone.
may have had consequences.
That’s unpossible. Everyone knows that Jay only bans rock-ribbed America-lovin’ conservatives.
josef
June 22nd, 2012
12:54 pm
JM
“Obama should be outsourced to Greece
That’s where he belongs”
********
Might not be a bad idea. Have you taken a good look at the composition of that coalition government? The Socialists and the arch conservatives… hmmmm…
Towncrier
June 22nd, 2012
12:54 pm
“…and to date he certainly is waaaaayyyy more conservative that Reagan…”
Yeah, Reagan was so wanting to pass gay marriage legislation but Nancy said she would divorce him if he tried.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
June 22nd, 2012
12:54 pm
josef:
You’re dodging but that’s o.k. ……………….
The West Wing is NOT his residence. It is federal property the same as the Old Executive Office across the way and the employees there are subject to federal law and regulations (everything from OSHA to EEO stuff).
Bottom line? The majority of Congress in the impeachment trial determined the president should be held to a lower standard of conduct.
So be it.
Moderate Line
June 22nd, 2012
12:56 pm
TaxPayer
June 22nd, 2012
12:21 pm
Moderate line,
That right wing stuff you linked to just needed some moderation so I gave you some via politifact. That’s all.
+++
The truth is neither right wing or left wing.
FactCheck.org has plenty of articles criticizing Romney. “For example, http://factcheck.org/2012/06/romneys-immigration-exaggeration/
Mitt Romney exaggerates when he says President Obama “did nothing on immigration” for three and a half years, even when Democrats controlled both houses of Congress. Obama supported and lobbied for the DREAM Act, which would have created a path to citizenship for some illegal immigrants who were brought to the U.S. as children. The bill passed the House in December 2010, but failed in the Senate largely because of Republican opposition.
In the Senate, a cloture motion to end debate received 55 votes — a clear majority and enough to assure passage had the bill been allowed to come to a straight up-or-down vote. But the measure failed because it takes 60 votes for such a motion to pass. The vote was mostly along party lines: Three Senate Republicans voted for the motion, and five Democrats were among the 41 senators who opposed it.
An interesting point is that if the five democrats had voted for cloture then the Dream Act would have become law.
That sounds really right wing. The reason I posted the articles is indicate that Jay rarely if ever comments on Obama and rarely in a negative way.
barking frog
June 22nd, 2012
12:57 pm
0311
Clinton’s acquittal would be
jury nullification.
Erwin's cat
June 22nd, 2012
12:57 pm
gm – “…please right wing nut jobs, tell me how many middle class jobs has Willard saved? “
ask the people at AMC Theaters, Burger King, Burlington Coat Factory, Clear Channel, Domino’s Pizza, Guitar Center, HD Supply, Micheal’s, Staples, Toys r Us, and the weather channel to name a few
Jm-pass TSPLOST silly people
June 22nd, 2012
12:58 pm
Josef
Greece is a crazy place
Perfect for Obama, he would be very popular there
Did you see Mrs. Warren is trying to put her Cherokee imbroglio behind her?
I think the liberal hero will lose, but who knows for sure until election day
josef
June 22nd, 2012
12:58 pm
TOWNCRIER
I was talking about immigration, not gay rights…
Joe Hussein Mama
June 22nd, 2012
12:58 pm
0311 — “Under our Constitution the Congress represents the will of the people. It would certainly appear that the administration is acting to circumvent the immigration laws that Congress would not amend or alter.”
The President merely formalized internal DHS/ICE policy that they had *already* been operating under for at least a year. Read:
http://www.ice.gov/doclib/secure-communities/pdf/prosecutorial-discretion-memo.pdf
Nothing in there says ‘we’re not going to catch these people.’ It pretty clearly says ‘we have limited resources, so let’s not spend a lot of time chasing these kinds of illegosos — and there’s a list of mitigating circumstances — and then it says ‘ let’s instead focus on these types of illegosos’ — and then there’s a list of aggravating circumstances.
Absolutely nothing in that memo or Obama’s policy excuses or exempts or immunizes anyone from enforcement action by ICE. It simply lays out a policy statement on how the ICE’s *scarce resources* are going to be used in order to catch the worst and most dangerous offenders first. Exercising prosecutorial discretion is not in any way a refusal or failure to enforce the law — DAs across the country do it every day when they offer plea bargains or immunity deals.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
June 22nd, 2012
12:58 pm
barking frog:
“0311
kamchak’s post is gone.
may have had consequences.”
Possibly. Some people on here exhibit a “personal” vitriol for others who disagree with them. In my opinion, the “left” is worse at this than the “right”.
That said, everyone has a right to their opinion and to be treating with respect. You can “hate” policies without hating the person.
HDB
June 22nd, 2012
12:59 pm
Towncrier
June 22nd, 2012
11:16 am
“He will nominate justices who will adhere to the Constitution and not “deconstruct” it; he will not seek to impose a tyranny of the minority upon the majority…..”
What about the tyranny of the majority?? If you honestly believed that, then segregation would still be LEGAL!! What about the 14th Amendment…guaranteeing “equal protection under the law”? Are you saying that the rights of a minority are less important??
Just like a Republican……”the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many”!!!
Towncrier
June 22nd, 2012
12:59 pm
“The reason I posted the articles is indicate that Jay rarely if ever comments on Obama and rarely in a negative way.”
The “balance” comes from his bloggers.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
June 22nd, 2012
1:01 pm
Joe Hussein Mama:
Again, there are many well informed people who disagree with you and in my opinion Obama has exceeded his authority. Suits will be filled and eventually SCOTUS will decide.
P.S. I have traveled to 28 countries on five continents. I “NEVER” went out without my passport. NEVER.
No sympathy from me ………….. show me your passport !
Joe Hussein Mama
June 22nd, 2012
1:01 pm
H. Air — “MAMA – That will come out in Obama’s impeachment trial – providing he is reelected. I don’t think he will be. Obama is aiding and abetting illegals …….. I don’t care where they come from. If they are illegal he took a sworn oath to enforce the laws of this country and he is ignoring the laws . A small example of this is his allowing students to remain in schools here illegally. He has instructed the law enforcers to ignore the laws on the books. That’s illegal.”
Sorry, but you’re wrong. Obama merely formalized what was already internal DHS/ICE policy; here’s a document from last June that lays it out:
http://www.ice.gov/doclib/secure-communities/pdf/prosecutorial-discretion-memo.pdf
Look up “Prosecutorial Discretion.” That’s all this is.
independent thinker
June 22nd, 2012
1:01 pm
Sounds like Romney and the Koch brothers are a perfect fit. None of them really give a rat’s behind about putting the little people back to work.Of course big bonus packages for the upper level and low taxes is something a Bain capitalist would make a priority.
At least Obama talks about working with corporations to bring back jobs they shipped overseas. Maybe a few of the Obama haters will realize that a community organizer is more experienced in waking up the social conscious of corporations to bring jobs back. I cannot envision Willard doing that.
HDB
June 22nd, 2012
1:02 pm
USMC
June 22nd, 2012
10:53 am
MSNBC/Politico Reporter: Romney Only Comfortable Around ‘White Folks’
Question: If Romney couldn’t deal with tough questions from black constituents in Philadelphia…….the point is quite a noticeable one…particularly about Republicans, isn’t it??
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/24/mitt-romney-education-philadelphia-black-voters_n_1542981.html
…..or from what really happened in Philly:
http://www.philly.com/philly/education/20120525_Romney__in_West_Philadelphia__dismisses_value_of_small_classes.html
josef
June 22nd, 2012
1:02 pm
JM
Have to agree on the Greek thingie…interesting to say the least…can’t wait to see just how long this coalition holds together…
As for Elizabeth Warren…it’s already pretty clearly established to me that her attackers on that one are so ignorant of American/Southern/Cherokee/Oklahoma history that it’s pointless to even try to discuss the matter.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
June 22nd, 2012
1:03 pm
barking frog:
“0311
Clinton’s acquittal would be
jury nullification.”
Yes ……….. Congressional jury nullification ………. a final (well not “the” final) check and balance that even citizens can use and I am not opposed to that.
HDB
June 22nd, 2012
1:03 pm
JKL2
June 22nd, 2012
12:50 pm
Bottom line up front: Any job Romney shipped offshore is still one less than Obama ever has.
There….fixed it…..
Joe Hussein Mama
June 22nd, 2012
1:04 pm
Madmax — “Joe Hussain – but wouldn’t national ID cards disenfranchise the poor. I mean how on earth are they going to get them if they can’t get a picture ID now.”
You probably missed it the last two times I brought it up, but I propose a lengthy implementation period, say 2-3 years. The cards have to be unforgeable, but also relatively easy to obtain (provided you can prove your identity). Possibly some biometric identifier (iris scan or fingerprint) could be used to verify your ID if you lost your card and needed a replacement.
I also proposed that these cards be COMPLETELY free of charge for all citizens. That covers the poor.
TaxPayer
June 22nd, 2012
1:04 pm
Moderate Line,
I cannot recall seeing anything on Kyle’s blog on Obama that was not negative. So perhaps the two of them constitue a “fair and balanced” approach, which is more than I can say for one Fairly Unbalanced Fox “News” network. Besides that, if you think Jay’s posts contain dishonest or misleading information, you can always post your proof. He seems quite receptive.
Florida Voting Rules Discriminate Against Minorities: Justice Department
June 22nd, 2012
1:04 pm
* Would cut back early voting hours, ban Sunday balloting
* Critics say reduced hours would hurt blacks
* Changes on hold before ruling, expected before Nov. 6
By Drew Singer
WASHINGTON, June 21 (Reuters) – New rules in Florida that cut back on early voting hours unfairly burden the state’s minorities, U.S. Justice Department lawyers argued on Thursday.
A three-judge District Court panel in Washington, D.C., heard nearly six hours of arguments from the Justice Department and Florida, which last year passed a series of measures its attorneys say will stave off voter fraud.
The changes would require people who moved counties to file provisional ballots, allow counties to adjust voter precinct hours and reduce the number of early voting days.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/21/florida-voting-rules-election-law-rick-scott_n_1617294.html?ref=topbar
Welcome to the Occupation
June 22nd, 2012
1:05 pm
Did someone up top there actually say “left-leaning WaPo” ?
Wow.
Interesting.
Jm-pass TSPLOST silly people
June 22nd, 2012
1:05 pm
I’m more worried about obama’s fast and furious spending than I am about the guns
Erwin's cat
June 22nd, 2012
1:06 pm
dependent thinker – “I cannot envision Willard doing that.”
ask the people at AMC Theaters, Burger King, Burlington Coat Factory, Clear Channel, Domino’s Pizza, Guitar Center, HD Supply, Micheal’s, Staples, Toys r Us, and the Weather Channel to name a few
stands for decibels
June 22nd, 2012
1:08 pm
Did someone up top there actually say “left-leaning WaPo” ?
Wow.
Interesting.
Come on, Kaplan Test Prep is toooootally socialist, man.
Welcome to the Occupation
June 22nd, 2012
1:09 pm
For a person to assert that the Washington Post is a “left-leaning” media organization, is just, well, breathtaking.
Goes a long way to telling you all you need to know about our present predicament in this country.
Joe Hussein Mama
June 22nd, 2012
1:09 pm
0311 — “Again, there are many well informed people who disagree with you and in my opinion Obama has exceeded his authority. Suits will be filled and eventually SCOTUS will decide.”
Shrug. It’s a political play by the GOP. Wanna know how I know?
(whispers) They didn’t say jack squat about the ICE memo I posted, even though the applicable subcommittees would have had it. They only freaked out when the President formalized that policy letter.
“P.S. I have traveled to 28 countries on five continents. I “NEVER” went out without my passport. NEVER. No sympathy from me ………….. show me your passport !”
Fair enough. Most people don’t have passports, though, and IIRC, the State Department recommends that you *not* just carry it around with you.
FWIW, I have a copy of my BC in my wallet.
weetamoe
June 22nd, 2012
1:10 pm
Just in case you missed the 30 second ad that re-re-re-repeats previously debunked charges against Romney, Mr Bookman reads one of them to you. If you care more about facts than winning an argument I suggest that in addition to reading the WAPost hit piece, you look into Modus and other operations your very own self and also read a bit about what Stephen Rattner has to say and look into the people at Citi who were handling the EBT card contract and if you find that interesting broaden your sphere of research materials a little more.Or just let Mr Bookman tell you what to think.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
June 22nd, 2012
1:11 pm
josef:
Now this is classy ………………
Headline: “Gay Activists Visiting White House Take Photos of Themselves Flipping Off Reagan Portrait”
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/gay-activists-visiting-white-house-take-photos-of-themselves-flipping-off-reagan-portrait/
stands for decibels
June 22nd, 2012
1:12 pm
Ballot Bollix SHEETZ
Welcome to the Occupation
June 22nd, 2012
1:12 pm
Decibels: “Come on, Kaplan Test Prep is toooootally socialist, man.”
Bingo.
Not to mention this editorial piece yesterday on Assange : http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/asylum-for-julian-assange/2012/06/20/gJQAZpuJrV_story.html.
- so sneering, so boot-licking in its water carrying subservience to US empire that, well, it could have come straight from one of its rather large stable of right wing columnists and bloggers .. (Jennifer Rubin anyone?)
weetamoe
June 22nd, 2012
1:12 pm
How does the Washington post lean? Can you say Ezra Klein?
Joe Hussein Mama
June 22nd, 2012
1:14 pm
0311 — “Now this is classy ………………”
That is kinda douchey, yeah.
But I have to admit, I’d like to take a dump on Cheney’s grave one day.
Mr_B
June 22nd, 2012
1:14 pm
Erwin’s Cat:@ 12:57
Is it your contention that all of these firms would have ceased to exist without the intervention of Bain Capital?
gm
June 22nd, 2012
1:14 pm
Now if Obama and Holder had not stop some of the terrorist plots, if they had only let their guard down like the last President, then maybe these right wing nut jobs would be just a little more American to the President of the United States.
Amazing looking at the right wing nut jobs in Georgia now we know why other states like Va, Ws, Ohio are below 7% unemployment, hicksville rather hate on Presient then deal with their fail party in Georgia for the last 15 years, nice going backwoods Georgia voters especially in the South Georgia.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
June 22nd, 2012
1:14 pm
Joe Hussein Mama:
1) Again, I don’t have time for lengthy back and forth as I am working on something else at this time but MANY disagree with you …………. and SCOTUS will decide.
Can you live with that? A SCOTUS decision like the one we will probably have Monday on Obamacare?
2) “Most people don’t have passports, though”
Obviously, because their illegal. That’s their problem.
TaxPayer
June 22nd, 2012
1:16 pm
gm – “…please right wing nut jobs, tell me how many middle class jobs has Willard saved? “
ask the people at AMC Theaters, Burger King, Burlington Coat Factory, Clear Channel, Domino’s Pizza, Guitar Center, HD Supply, Micheal’s, Staples, Toys r Us, and the weather channel to name a few
How many jobs did Romney save at these businesses, Erwin?
Towncrier
June 22nd, 2012
1:17 pm
“What about the tyranny of the majority?? If you honestly believed that, then segregation would still be LEGAL!!”
I don’t agree at all. Legal racial segregation was really fostered in the south by racist Democrats. When blacks fled the south in the early 20th century, they were segregated not by law but other factors. I don’t believe that the majority of whites in America were for segregation; if that were the case, then all of the states would have passed laws enforcing it. Many may have been indifferent as opposed to against it, but that is another matter.
The way to safeguard the interests of the minority is through state laws. Federal laws should represent the interests of the majority.
Towncrier
June 22nd, 2012
1:20 pm
“You probably missed it the last two times I brought it up, but I propose a lengthy implementation period, say 2-3 years. The cards have to be unforgeable, but also relatively easy to obtain (provided you can prove your identity). Possibly some biometric identifier (iris scan or fingerprint) could be used to verify your ID if you lost your card and needed a replacement. I also proposed that these cards be COMPLETELY free of charge for all citizens. That covers the poor.”
I like your proposal, JHM. It sounds reasonable to me at this point (without thinking it through entirely).
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
June 22nd, 2012
1:21 pm
Towncrier:
Right after the civil war many northern states passed laws limiting or forbidding black immigration into their states. Some even required the posting of a “bond” before they were even allowed to visit.
There is more bigotry and prejudice in most big northern cities today than in the south.
Just go into an ethnic Polish neighborhood in say Chicago or Philly and ask around.
Welcome to the Occupation
June 22nd, 2012
1:21 pm
” If you care more about facts than winning an argument I suggest that in addition to reading the WAPost hit piece”
See this is one of the major reasons that the outfit known as “FOX News” really exists. It’s so that people can look at other organizations like the Washington Post, which in their editorial opinions are still comfortably right of center (that is, when you consider the vast the shift to the right of our entire political spectrum has been, esp over the last 5-10 years), but do still publish some traditional critical fact-checking and -gathering journalism that is at least formally based on actual reporting (despite often uncritically reproducing ideologically slanted framing of issues), and say: “see there, that’s the “LIBERAL media” for you!”
When in reality, it’s nothing of the sort. All that’s happened is that FOX has come along and staked out a position that is well to the right of the so-called “mainstream”, which in turn pulls those mainstream outlets to the right, but when those organizations don’t adopt the full-bore right wing party line of FOX they can still be pointed to and disavowed as “liberal” outlets. The result: the entire political discourse is steadily dragged to the right.
Paulo977
June 22nd, 2012
1:24 pm
josef
it’s already pretty clearly established to me that her attackers on that one are so ignorant of American/Southern/Cherokee/Oklahoma history that it’s pointless to even try to discuss the matter.
__________________________________________________________________
Come to think of it, ignorance in the electorate , from what is going on now, does not only impact the Warren issue!!!!
HDB
June 22nd, 2012
1:27 pm
http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/22/romney-outsourcing-bain/?section=money_topstories
“Similar lack of shock for WaPo’s (fairly lackluster) case that Bain Capital also encouraged its non-BPO portfolio companies to take advantage of outsourcing trends. In fact, one of Romney’s former colleagues recently told me: “In the 1980’s, private equity made a lot of its money by stripping and flipping. In the 1990’s and early 2000’s, it was about outsourcing. Since then, it’s been about growth.” No shame or sense of regret. Just matter-of-fact.
The problem with this history, however, is that it runs counter to Mitt Romney’s own narrative. And he only has himself to blame.
On the campaign trail, Romney has a tendency to talk about a job creation record. Specifically, that he helped create 100,000 “net jobs.” As we’ve previously reported, it’s a figure that no one, including Romney, can actually calculate. Bain Capital never tracked the number of jobs it created, let alone the number it destroyed or outsourced.”
Why not ask those people whose jobs were destroyed by Bain Capital so that we can get the TRUTH rather than the transmitted perceptions?? Ask why a company that experienced 53% GROWTH in its market was driven in bankruptcy….if management was so good??
From wiki…about AMPAD:
“In 1992, the newly formed holding company American Pad & Paper and Bain Capital purchased the subsidiary from Mead. Upon its formation, American Pad & Paper consolidated its 13 manufacturing and distribution facilities into six in 21 locations in the US. At the time, the company had more than 3,700,000 square feet (340,000 m2) of production and warehouse space in California, Colorado, Georgia, Illinois, Massachusetts, Mississippi, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Texas, Washington, and Wisconsin.[4]
The company continued to enjoy 53 percent compound annual growth in net sales, which increased from $8.8 million in 1992 to $200.5 million in 1996, when the company became publicly traded. The company made a number of acquisitions, including writing products company SCM in July 1994, brand names from the American Trading and Production Corporation in August 1995, WR Acquisition and the Williamhouse-Regency Division of Delaware, Inc. in October, 1995, Niagara Envelope Company, Inc. in 1996, and Shade/Allied, Inc. in February 1997.
On January 8, 1999, unable to sustain profitability, the company announced it would be delisted from the New York Stock Exchange. After filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection…..”
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
June 22nd, 2012
1:27 pm
Joe Hussein Mama:
“0311 — “Now this is classy ………………”
That is kinda douchey, yeah.
But I have to admit, I’d like to take a dump on Cheney’s grave one day.”
I hear you and my only comment is that I would NEVER do something like that even for someone’s policies I totally despised.
Again, I think you bring out the basic differences between Liberals and Conservatives, Tea Party Rallys vs. Occupy Demonstrations, etc., etc.
It’s all about being respectful even in disagreement.
I think Kamchuck learned the hard way.
HDB
June 22nd, 2012
1:32 pm
Towncrier
June 22nd, 2012
1:17 pm
“I don’t agree at all. Legal racial segregation was really fostered in the south by racist CONSERVATIVES….which at that point were Democrats…but they began their migration to the GOP in 1964″
Fixed that statement…..
” I don’t believe that the majority of whites in America were for segregation…”
Then why did it take the SUPREME COURT to enforce the 14th Amendment so that ethnic minorities would have the same constitutional protections as the majority??
TaxPayer
June 22nd, 2012
1:34 pm
“Trust me.” – Mitt Romney at GST Steel employee meeting
Joe Hussein Mama
June 22nd, 2012
1:35 pm
0311 — “Can you live with that? A SCOTUS decision like the one we will probably have Monday on Obamacare?”
I’d caution you about trying to read the Court’s mind. Many people try it, many people fail.
“Obviously, because their illegal. That’s their problem.”
Most *American citizens* don’t have passports. I read a stat once; I think it was something like 12-18% of Americans ever have passports *at all* in their entire lives.
Mark in mmid-town
June 22nd, 2012
1:37 pm
Journalism 101 son… reporters report, editorialists opine… I understand your confused and muddled state though, having mistaken Faux News, Drudge, and Brietbart editorialists as reporters all these years..
+++++————-
You miss the point. I have no problem with Jay opining or being a liberal, but Jay also considers himself a journalist. The problem I have is when he uses his msm perch to be nothing more than a Democratic Party hack, regurgitating the talking points sent to him by the Democratic Party or Media Matters or some other George Soros run group. It’s pretty obvious that this is what Jay does way too often. I understand why Jay feels the need to do this as his job security is dependent on it. He knows, as do most in the msm, that their prospects of remaining employed in the msm are not very favorable if they don’t promote the party line. There are conservative hacks as well, but they’re outnumbered about 10 – 1 in the news media as the news media is largely in control of liberals. As for Breitbart and Drudge, whatever their faults, they do engage in journalism and break stories the liberal msm and their Democratic Party masters would prefer remain buried.
Joe Hussein Mama
June 22nd, 2012
1:37 pm
Towncrier — “I like your proposal, JHM. It sounds reasonable to me at this point (without thinking it through entirely).”
Thank you; that’s very kind of you to say.
I’m open to suggestions, ideas and amendments. It just seems to me that given the problems we face with respect to immigration, there’s just no *easy* fix — but that the ID card would address most of the issue and potentially be cheaper into the bargain.
Towncrier
June 22nd, 2012
1:41 pm
“Then why did it take the SUPREME COURT to enforce the 14th Amendment so that ethnic minorities would have the same constitutional protections as the majority??”
You will have to consult the court since, in its infinite wisdom, it issued two diametrically opposed opinions on segregation. They originally ruled segregation laws constitutional (even after a Civil Rights Act of 1875) in 1896. But I would argue that universal protections should apply to those things over which, when we are created, we have no choice (such as age, gender and skin color). Homosexuality cannot be proven to be genetic as those things are.
Towncrier
June 22nd, 2012
1:43 pm
” It just seems to me that given the problems we face with respect to immigration, there’s just no *easy* fix — but that the ID card would address most of the issue and potentially be cheaper into the bargain.”
It strikes me as a pragmatic solution (which we need more of).
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
June 22nd, 2012
1:44 pm
Joe Hussein Mama:
1) I have had many SCOTUS decisions not go the way I thought they should.
I simply asked can you live with whatever their decision will be on Obama’s immigration policy even if it disagrees with your own viewpoint ?
2) “Most *American citizens* don’t have passports. I read a stat once; I think it was something like 12-18% of Americans ever have passports *at all* in their entire lives.”
Of course they don’t because they don’t leave this country !
My point was if I travel to a foreign country I carry mine (or other required documentation) and am ready, willing and able to provide such to any person of authority in that country who asks me to.
I expect no less from any non-citizen in this country.
TaxPayer
June 22nd, 2012
1:47 pm
Using Romney’s “logic” for job creation, I have to award President George Washington with the top honor of creating all of our jobs for now and forever.
TaxPayer
June 22nd, 2012
1:51 pm
Tell me again exactly what steps Romney, the successful businessman, must take in order to turn a profit from the US government.
stands for decibels
June 22nd, 2012
1:52 pm
How does the Washington post lean? Can you say Ezra Klein?
weetamoe, if you’re still around–yep, and I can say Kathleen Parker, Charles Krauthammer, Richard Cohen, Jennifer Rubin, George Will, Michael Gerson… a boatload of conservative or conservative-friendly voices published in their pages.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
June 22nd, 2012
1:54 pm
TaxPayer:
And you would be right for without his military leadership ………… our country would not be here and you would be complaining about the Queen.
Joe Hussein Mama
June 22nd, 2012
2:08 pm
0311 — “I simply asked can you live with whatever their decision will be on Obama’s immigration policy even if it disagrees with your own viewpoint ?”
Sure. I lived with Citizens United, didn’t I?
“Of course they don’t because they don’t leave this country ! My point was if I travel to a foreign country I carry mine (or other required documentation) and am ready, willing and able to provide such to any person of authority in that country who asks me to. I expect no less from any non-citizen in this country.”
You’re missing my point. Most *Americans* can’t prove their citizenship, even in their own country. So stopping people and asking them to prove they’re citizens or allowed to be here (per the Papers, Please laws) is kind of a pointless exercise.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
June 22nd, 2012
2:10 pm
Joe Hussein Mama:
Not pointless ………….. just as step in the right direction.
Reasonable suspicion
Probable cause
………….. and a national ID card would be great with an automatic, immediate deportation (no hearing) if you are found in possession of a counterfeit one.
Joe Hussein Mama
June 22nd, 2012
2:11 pm
0311 — “………… our country would not be here and you would be complaining about the Queen.”
God save the Queen
The fascist regime
They made you a moron
Potential H-Bomb
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Save_the_Queen_(Sex_Pistols_song)
Joe Hussein Mama
June 22nd, 2012
2:13 pm
0311 — “………….. and a national ID card would be great with an automatic, immediate deportation (no hearing) if you are found in possession of a counterfeit one.”
What if you find an American *citizen* in possession of one? Where do you deport that guy to?
Jay
June 22nd, 2012
2:16 pm
Mark, the situation that you attempt to describe has no relationship whatsoever to reality. You are opining on something that you know absolutely nothing about, and expose only your own ignorance about how the real world works.
Other than that, carry on!
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
June 22nd, 2012
2:18 pm
Joe Hussein Mama:
To the nearest U.S. Marshal’s holding tank ……….. same as with counterfeit currency ………. did it for years …………… AND guess what ………… that vehicle belongs to Uncle Sam because it was used to transport “contraband” !!!
I love it !!!
Joe Hussein Mama
June 22nd, 2012
2:25 pm
0311 — “To the nearest U.S. Marshal’s holding tank ……….. same as with counterfeit currency ………. did it for years …………… AND guess what ………… that vehicle belongs to Uncle Sam because it was used to transport “contraband” !!!”
I have said that I think it should be a felony to copy, attempt to copy or possess a copy of one of these cards. So yeah, US Marshals would be about right.
Give some thought to what you’d like to see those cards used for. Seems to me they could be used to address more than one thing (i.e. voter ID, work authorization, SS card, Medicare card, drivers license, etc.). And also think about how to ensure that American citizens can *get* them. That was the biggest liberal complaint about voter ID laws.
If these cards plug holes, but are reasonably easy to obtain (and free), then it seems to me that they address *both sides* complaints and both Dems and GOPs win.
Welcome to the Occupation
June 22nd, 2012
2:28 pm
I’m guessing Midtown is not the most, shall we say, favorable, environs for a person with Mark’s obsessions to call home. Lol
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
June 22nd, 2012
2:41 pm
Joe Hussein Mama:
Bottom line:
Don’t think it will ever happen ……………. too political.
frank1569
June 22nd, 2012
2:53 pm
Two things often overlooked:
1. Corporations are dictatorships – the boss says jump, you jump, or you’re gone.
2. The Book of Mormon clearly states that the ‘ideal’ government is a one-world monarchy ruled by a benevolent King.
Taken together, one could argue Mormon Romney believes his experience as a dictator qualifies him to be King of the World.
barking frog
June 22nd, 2012
2:53 pm
How do you deport someone if you don’t
know what country they are
from?
Jacey Galvez
June 22nd, 2012
2:57 pm
Mitt Romney is Jesus Christ.
“And He will defeat the Beast who has reigned like a tyrant over His kingdom and hardened men’s souls.”
(Book of Mormon, Ch. 4, V. 16)
Tom Middleton
June 22nd, 2012
3:00 pm
Apparently, Jay, all this stuff Romney has put out about how running a business is a prerequisite for becoming a good president for America is pure Mitt hooey.
If what he did best was to ignore what is good for America in order to make his many $millions in personal fortune, then how would we be better off with him for even one term?
I think what would be a far better requirement for that office would be being one of the many thousands of good workers fired by Mitt for profit, especially so your job could go overseas, or being someone knowing many Americans who were!
Tom Middleton
June 22nd, 2012
3:04 pm
“I like being able to fire people who provide services to me.” -Mitt Romney
ODD OWL
June 22nd, 2012
3:14 pm
The Mittens “soft” Romney “Bain Cutthroat Capital” Administration would export jobs overseas and import misery to America…
Moderate Line
June 22nd, 2012
3:32 pm
TaxPayer
June 22nd, 2012
1:04 pm
Moderate Line,
I cannot recall seeing anything on Kyle’s blog on Obama that was not negative. So perhaps the two of them constitue a “fair and balanced” approach, which is more than I can say for one Fairly Unbalanced Fox “News” network. Besides that, if you think Jay’s posts contain dishonest or misleading information, you can always post your proof. He seems quite receptive.
++++
I cannot recall seeing anything on Kyle’s blog on Obama that was not negative. So perhaps the two of them constitue a “fair and balanced” approach.
Presenting two bias opinions which are opposed to each other may be considered “fair and balanced approach.” but it is not very informative.
Besides that, if you think Jay’s posts contain dishonest or misleading information, you can always post your proof.
I believe that is what I am doing.
Mark in mid-town
June 22nd, 2012
4:01 pm
Jay writes in response to me: “Mark, the situation that you attempt to describe has no relationship whatsoever to reality. You are opining on something that you know absolutely nothing about, and expose only your own ignorance about how the real world works.”
+++++++++++++++——–
Are you saying you don’t often regurgitate the talking points sent to you by Democratic Party, Media Matters, or some other George Soros funded group? If that’s whay you’re saying, then why are so many of your blogs almost verbatim the same Democratic Party or Obama talking points being presented by so many other Democratic Party supporting bloggers or opinion writers at that very moment? If you’re not toting the party line out of fear of losing your job if you don’t, then why are you doing it? Is it out of bordom? Or laziness? I’d still put my money on it being fear of being able to remain employed in the msm if you dared try to bite the hand that feeds you as I think you do have talent and aren’t lazy.
Jay
June 22nd, 2012
4:13 pm
“Are you saying you don’t often regurgitate the talking points sent to you by Democratic Party, Media Matters, or some other George Soros funded group? If that’s whay you’re saying, then why are so many of your blogs almost verbatim the same Democratic Party or Obama talking points being presented by so many other Democratic Party supporting bloggers or opinion writers at that very moment?”
That’s exactly what I’m saying. I receive NO talking points from anyone — the very idea is ridiculous. I post my own honest thoughts, and only my own thoughts. Anybody who knows me would confirm how ridiculous that notion is.
However, if you can document your claim that my posts are “almost verbatim” what you see elsewhere, then this is the place to publish that documentation. I issue you a challenge to back up what is probably the most serious charge that you can level against a professional journalist.
Again, if you believe that you have proof of the very serious charge that you level, you are encouraged to post it right here, where everyone can read it. Otherwise ….
Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
June 22nd, 2012
5:01 pm
And so we should stick with the community organizer that no one would hire to run a lemonade stand? There is no telling how many jobs Emperor Nero has sent overseas in the last three and one half years, just because of his ineptitude and incompetence.
Welcome to the Occupation
June 22nd, 2012
6:54 pm
Mark in mid-town:
Are you saying you don’t often regurgitate the talking points sent to you by Democratic Party, Media Matters, or some other George Soros funded group?
What makes your statement veer off into the absurd, the borderline paranoid, is the part “the talking points sent to you by…”
As if it were even necessary for talking points to be passed around that way, like from a tv producer to a host.
But that doesn’t mean that the process doesn’t operate in a similar manner nonetheless. Talking points largely amount to a combination of the issues of the day that arise by necessity and those that are pushed by one side or the other to direct the conversation in the desired way.
If you’re really concerned about talking points being “fed” to the mouths of puppet underlings, there’s no one who does it better than FOX’s Roger Ailes. And if you think he’s vastly outgunned by some ‘liberal’ mainstream media, that just shows how uninformed you really are – but then, that’s about what we expect from FOX partisans.
Mighty Righty
June 22nd, 2012
8:29 pm
The other side of Obama’s success at creating jobs.
Although Barack Obama and other Democrats touted the $787 billion stimulus package as a way to create green jobs that would put Americans back to work, new reports show the spending package has mostly created green jobs for foreign workers.
U.S. Department of Energy statistics show 79 percent of the $2.1 billion in stimulus money allocated for wind energy has been paid to foreign manufacturers.
The Spanish company Iberdrola has received $443 million; the Portuguese company EDP has received $229 million; and the British company Terra Firma, which bought a large wind farm in western Pennsylvania, received $42 million.
Analysts worry the stimulus funds will also help create manufacturing jobs in China, and a Texas consortium’s plans to build a wind farm that primarily will rely on Chinese-made turbines using $450 million in stimulus money underscores this fear
A report from the Investigative Reporting Workshop at American University found 80 percent of the stimulus money had created 6,000 jobs, and only a small percentage of those jobs went to American workers.
Only two American companies ̶ General Electric Energy and Clipper Wind ̶ are major wind turbine manufacturers, and the American Wind Energy Associations has said the United States saw a drop in the number of wind turbine manufacturing jobs last year.
Mark in mid-town
June 22nd, 2012
10:16 pm
Jay, when I used the term “almost verbatim”, I didn’t mean you presented the exact same words in a plagiaristic way which seems to be how you took what I wrote. What I meant was that you often present close to the exact same theme and spin of the Democratic Party and/or Obama talking points that are presented elsewhere in liberal msm and on left-wing blogs at that same moment in time .
I apologize for not making that clear. You’re too clever and careful to use the exact same words. But toe the party line regarding spin you do often. And when you do this, I think you’re operating as a shameless hack, not as bad as shameless a hack such as Eugene Robinson, but shameless nonetheless.
I didn’t for a second think your earlier post regarding fast and Furious is what you truly think of the issue. I think you did back-flips in order to spin Fast and Furious so as to protect Obama and that you would have wrote something entirely different had the current president been Bush and the circumstances been exactly the same.
Back in 2005 when George Bush was president, you had written : “Republicans in Congress have been equally accommodating to the president. They have deferred repeatedly to White House claims of executive privilege and have abandoned even the pretense of oversight over the executive branch.” Now that we have a Democratic president, you have a different view. That’s why I call you a shameless hack.
Proud to be me
June 22nd, 2012
11:04 pm
And, just what did GE do (the BIG contributor to Obama) . . . send jobs overseas and to China!!! Duh!
Jay
June 22nd, 2012
11:13 pm
I didn’t for a second think your earlier post regarding fast and Furious is what you truly think of the issue. I think you did back-flips in order to spin Fast and Furious so as to protect Obama and that you would have wrote something entirely different had the current president been Bush and the circumstances been exactly the same.
Then you think incorrectly.
In addition, it takes an extraordinary degree of arrogance to believe that others could not possibly hold honest opinions so contrary to your own, that they must somehow be instructed or ordered to express such beliefs. From another source, I might even be offended by it.
In this case, it’s no longer worth my time.
Proud to be me
June 22nd, 2012
11:15 pm
The President is MIA!!! Oh, No!!! He’s just playing another game of golf and at another rich liberal fund raiser! Yes, FYI, there are “rich” liberals, you know! Liberals remind me of the Pied Piper . . . leading all the rats off a cliff except they are leading all the so called “poor” off a cliff. There’s the truly poor and then there’s the so called “poor” . . . you know the ones with big screen tvs, cell phones, nice cars, ipods, the latest tech gadgets. You see them at the airport going to visit their relatives and going to Disney Land.
Proud to be me
June 23rd, 2012
7:44 am
The story of why Bush was so bad at the end of his term.
Don’t just skim over this, it’s not very long, read it slowly and let it sink in. If in doubt, check it out!!!
The day the democrats took over was not January 22nd 2009, it was actually January 3rd 2007 the day the Democrats took over the House of Representatives and the Senate, at the very start of the 110th Congress.
The Democrat Party controlled a majority in both chambers for the first time since the end of the 103rd Congress in 1995.
For those who are listening to the liberals propagating the fallacy that everything is “Bush’s Fault”, think about this:
January 3rd, 2007 was the day the Democrats took over the Senate and the Congress. At the time:
The DOW Jones closed at 12,621.77
The GDP for the previous quarter was 3.5%
The Unemployment rate was 4.6%
George Bush’s Economic policies SET A RECORD of 52 STRAIGHT MONTHS of JOB GROWTH
Remember the day…
January 3rd, 2007 was the day that Barney Frank took over the House Financial Services Committee and Chris Dodd took over the Senate Banking Committee.
The economic meltdown that happened 15 months later was in what part of the economy?
BANKING AND FINANCIAL SERVICES!
Unemployment… to this CRISIS by (among MANY other things) dumping 5-6 TRILLION Dollars of toxic loans on the economy from YOUR Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac FIASCOES!
Bush asked Congress 17 TIMES to stop Fannie & Freddie – starting in 2001 because it was financially risky for the US economy.
And who took the THIRD highest pay-off from Fannie Mae AND Freddie Mac? OBAMA
And who fought against reform of Fannie and Freddie?
OBAMA and the Democrat Congress
So when someone tries to blame Bush..
REMEMBER JANUARY 3rd, 2007…. THE DAY THE DEMOCRATS TOOK OVER!”
Budgets do not come from the White House. They come from Congress and the party that controlled Congress since January 2007 is the Democrat Party.
Furthermore, the Democrats controlled the budget process for 2008 & 2009 as well as 2010 &2011.
In that first year, they had to contend with George Bush, which caused them to compromise on spending, when Bush somewhat belatedly got tough on spending increases.
For 2009 though, Nancy Pelosi & Harry Reid bypassed George Bush entirely, passing continuing resolutions to keep government running until Barack Obama could take office. At that time, they passed a massive omnibus spending bill to complete the 2009 budgets.
And where was Barack Obama during this time? He was a member of that very Congress that passed all of these massive spending bills, and he signed the omnibus bill as President to complete 2009.
If the Democrats inherited any deficit, it was the 2007 deficit, the last of the Republican budgets. That deficit was the lowest in five years, and the fourth straight decline in deficit spending. After that, Democrats in Congress took control of spending, and that includes Barack Obama, who voted for the budgets.
If Obama inherited anything, he inherited it from himself. In a nutshell, what Obama is saying is I inherited a deficit that I voted for and then I voted to expand that deficit four-fold since January 20th.
There is no way this will be widely publicized, unless each of us sends it on!
Mark in mid-town
June 23rd, 2012
9:27 am
Jay, I have no problem with you holding an opinion contrary to my own. Again, the problem I have is that I think you seldom ever divert from the party line which means I think you too often operate as a hack. I didn’t have to wonder about what you would write about Fast and Furious. The only thing in doubt was whether you would take it on or decide to just ignore it as is the case so often when there is damaging news regarding Obama. For all intents and purposes, I knew what you would write before hand. I’ve been reading you for years so I feel pretty confident in saying that you would have spun fast and Furious completely different if Bush was the White House.
If your claim is that you would expressed the exact same opinion, then please show an example of something over the years with regard to national politics where you have ever done such a thing. My goodness, back in May you signed on to the incredible sleight of hand being presented by Rex Nutting that federal spending under Obama was rising at the lowest rate since Dwight Eisenhower.
That claim has been so thoroughly discredited and debunked, yet the headline of your post was “News flash! Obama most frugal president since Ike”. Good grief! If that’s not party-line spin worthy of Pravda in the old Soviet Union, I don’t know what is.
Credit to Glen Kessler in the Washington Post for putting the lie to that spin. It would have been nice Mr. Bookman if you had done so yourself, rather than sign onto that nonsense as if on command:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-facts-about-the-growth-of-spending-under-obama/2012/05/24/gJQAIJh6nU_blog.html
Welcome to the Occupation
June 23rd, 2012
9:53 am
Ah I love it. The Washington Post gets cited to shoot down the Obama smallest spender in 60 yrs meme. The “librul” media to the rescue – for the conservative argument! Hmm, interesting.
Welcome to the Occupation
June 23rd, 2012
10:05 am
The bottom line, Mark in mid-town, is that Jay is right. You don’t have the slightest idea what you’re talking about.
The fact is that we did not have a “spending problem” in this country until the housing market and financial crisis in 2007-8. It’s the collapse that occurred at that time that has given us a BUDGET problem – not a SPENDING problem.
Even spending vast amounts on foreign wars, a hugely wasteful prescription drug giveaway to major insurers and drug companies, and huge tax breaks for top income levels and corporations, our budget deficits pre-crisis were still perfectly manageable into the indefinite future.
If you want to claim now that we are spending at wildly unsustainable levels, you have to address how to return the economic outputs to something like the pre-crash levels to have a rational conversation. Otherwise, you’re just engaging and scaremongering, which means you’re either ignorant and are being used for a tool by the ideological interests who are advancing these ideas or you are arguing in bad faith.
Mark in mid-town
June 23rd, 2012
11:16 am
To Welcome to the Occupation — At no time did I express an opinion as to whether I supported additional government spending or opposed it, or whether we had a spending problem or did not. That’s a different question as to the claim that Obama has been the most frugal president since Ike. It’s beyond a joke and it’s shameless hack spin to claim that Obama is the most frugal president since Ike. He isn’t. Not even remotely close.
As for my own beliefs. I think that neither most Republicans nor most Democrats nor most msm and non-msm opinion writers have a clue as to what the true federal tax rate is. The true federal tax rate is not the percentage of money people directly pay in taxes. That’s just a line-item book-keeping entry that has no context. To simplify, the true federal tax rate is the sum of the following 2 things:
1) the percentage of GDP the federal government spends
2) the percentage of GDP that those in the private sector additionally spend in adhering to federal regulations and rules.
The sum of those 2 things will yield a far higher percentage number than the actual money people directly pay to the federal government in taxes. Let’s say that the sum of those 2 things is 35% That 35% amount can hold true whether the government decides to officially collect 25% of income in taxes, or whether the federal government just decides to collect 5% in direct taxes. In other words, the amount of money the federal government collects in taxes is really irrelevant to what the true federal tax rate is. Because at the end of the day, what matters is the percent of productivity that’s absorbed by the federal government. That’s the true federal tax rate. And so few get that.
As for my views on government spending. I support a massive amount of additional government spending on infrastructure as I don’t think there is a private sector alternative for doing that. Private sector alternatives involve very expensive tolls and transit fares and I think such expensive tolls and fares are counter-productive as they motivate people to stay home rather than engage in economic activities which create jobs and grow the economy. Thus, I support the upcoming T-SPLOST because even though I think the local government will administer that in a largely inefficient and incompetent way, that there is still no viable private sector alternative and to do nothing would be far worse.
Welcome to the Occupation
June 23rd, 2012
12:00 pm
Mark in Mid-town:
Well, I commend you for acknowledging that there are efforts for which there is no private alternative to government support — which in today’s environment effectively means you qualify as a wild-eyed commie. (Welcome to the cause, comrade!)
But the whole opposition between “tax and spend” liberal versus thrifty anti-government spending conservatives is a complete fraud of course. It’s a matter of the varying emphasis in where the two sides actually want that spending to go. And even there, the line between the two sides becomes more and more blurred — a trend that historians in the future will note accelerated under Obama, no matter what FOX News or right wing propaganda claims to the contrary.
Which is what puzzles me about your argument about the additional burden placed on the private sphere through taxation. You realize the corporate class now – esp since Citizens United – effectively has both hands on the levers of our legislative branch, and probably executive too? Subsidized sectors effectively have their subsidies greenlighted over public opposition without so much as a brief pause to consider bowing to public opinion. True, the private sector has to contend with regulations, but they generally benefit from the “services” they get from the government – courts, patent enforcement, whatever. So regulations are hardly a one-way, all-cost and no-benefit street. They didn’t purchase this government just to see their investments go completely unrewarded after all.
Welcome to the Occupation
June 23rd, 2012
12:50 pm
And now, coming along as though tailor-made to make my above point (12:00), there’s this:
http://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Senate-OKs-huge-farm-bill-puts-House-GOP-on-spot-3654219.php
Senate OKs huge farm bill, puts House GOP on spot
Washington – The Senate’s passage Thursday of a nearly $1 trillion farm bill with bipartisan support presented House Republicans and their antideficit Tea Party faction with a huge spending bill that subsidizes large corn and other commodity farmers while spending record sums on food stamps.
Yes, these Republicans obviously care very very much about “government spending”.