A lot of baloney flying fast and furious
As previously noted, the “Fast and Furious” program run by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and the U.S. attorney in Arizona was a badly conceived operation made worse by incompetent leadership. It began as an effort to track the illegal flow of guns from U.S. gun shops across the border to Mexican drug cartels, with the hope of using the information to break up those cartels, and in the end it may have contributed to scores of deaths, including the death of a U.S. Border Patrol officer.
Nobody — with the exception of some who were directly involved — disputes that it was a bad idea gone wrong. And as a result, most of those in the ATF and the U.S. attorney’s office in Arizona who planned and led the effort have been fired or reassigned.
So what’s the controversy in Washington all about? Republicans have two working theories about Fast and Furious, and through the House Government Oversight Committee are attempting to find evidence to support those pet theories. But so far, despite having subpoenaed a veritable haystack of documents from the Justice Department, they have been unable to find the needle that they seek.
The response to that failure has been to demand still more haystacks to search. Committee Chairman Darrell Issa insists that the Justice Department release thousands of additional documents that go right to the core of ongoing criminal investigations in the case, even though as a matter of law and practice such documents are considered exempt from congressional subpoena.
Attorney General Eric Holder, backed by President Obama, has refused to release those documents, which is why he is now in danger of joining a long list of officials in both parties to have been held in contempt of Congress over the years.
Issa and his colleagues believe that somewhere, documents exist that will show that Holder and others at high levels in the Obama administration helped to plan and execute Fast and Furious, although again, there’s no evidence that is true. But what really drives the investigation is a deeply held conviction among many conservatives that instead of being an effort to track guns back to the drug cartels and then arrest cartel leadership, Fast and Furious was a government plot intended to make guns look bad and to build public support for undercutting the Second Amendment.
Here’s how Rush Limbaugh explained it to the faithful yesterday:
“Now, we all know what the purpose of this was. The purpose of this was to gin up anti-Amendment 2 sentiment among the people of this country. The objective was — and this is where the irony steps in — the objective was to have news stories where everybody was shocked and stunned and saddened, guns purchased by drug cartel members in America. Look how easy it was, end up in Mexico, owned by violent drug gangs, and used in the commission of heinous crimes. Why, our gun laws are too lax. The sentiment in this country among the people is to maintain the Second Amendment. The America people don’t want, by a vast majority, any gun control legislation. But that doesn’t matter to people like President Kardashian or Eric Holder or any of the Democrat Party or the left.
They don’t want you to have guns, and so it doesn’t matter about the Constitution and it doesn’t matter about the will of the American people. If they don’t want you to have guns they’re gonna try to find a way to make sure that you don’t. And that’s what Fast and Furious was, as simply put as I can make it.”
The theory has no more basis in fact than do claims that Obama is a Kenyan plant or that he intends to confiscate all firearms in private hands. It also ignores the reality that the Bush administration had run similar if smaller scale operations, and that Fast and Furious — botched though it was — was simply an extension of those previous programs.
Unfortunately, these days a story with a basis in fact is much less valuable than a bogus story line that gets people stirred up and angry, certain that their country is being stolen from them as they watch.
– Jay Bookman
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609 comments Add your comment
larry
June 21st, 2012
1:31 pm
Not caring about the Terry family and helping them find answers as to how their son died…
On July 13, less than a week after claiming executive privilege for Miers and Taylor, Counsel Fielding effectively claimed the privilege once again, this time in relation to documents related to the 2004 death of Army Ranger Pat Tillman. In a letter to the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, Fielding claimed certain papers relating to discussion of the friendly-fire shooting “implicate Executive Branch confidentiality interests” and would therefore not be turned over to the committee.[13]Ask the Tillman family about the answers the Bush adminstration gave them to how their son died…..
Towncrier
June 21st, 2012
1:31 pm
“It is going to be an easy Obama win in November.”
I think you are the only one saying that.
MiltonMan
June 21st, 2012
1:31 pm
“All good things must come to an end and if the gop win, our country is history.”
Thanks Chicken Little. Ignore that we survived Jimmy Carter, Bush Jr. & now Obama.
getalife
June 21st, 2012
1:32 pm
“Romney Still Won’t Say Whether He Would End Obama Immigration Policy… THE BACKTRACK BEGINS: ‘Immigration System Should Support Strong Families’… What Happened To ‘Self-Deport’? “Aol.
Too weak to be President.
Joseph
June 21st, 2012
1:32 pm
I will give Obama credit on this though. He didn’t throw his friend Holder under the bus like he did Wright, Rezco, Ayers, and Farrakhan…
larry
June 21st, 2012
1:32 pm
Ask the Tilman family about the Bush’s adminstration answer’s to how their son died.
MiltonMan
June 21st, 2012
1:32 pm
I am with Obama on this: the private sector economy is doing just fine.
1811/0311
June 21st, 2012
1:33 pm
larry @ 12:50
I don’t see that as a good examlple of executive privilege since the documents were given up to the Senate.
Towncrier:
Thank you.
getalife
June 21st, 2012
1:33 pm
milt,
I don’t expect a different result like you cons.
I know the same thing will happen.
Joe Hussein Mama
June 21st, 2012
1:33 pm
O. Timer — “Why should he subject himself to the abuse he would get from thousands of knuckle-draggers, particularly given the proven history of that abuse at the time he did open his cartoon up for comment? If you don’t like his cartoons, don’t read them. It’s called choice.”
To most primates, looking one’s rival or opponent directly in the eye is a hostile act. Hiding or shading one’s eyes, so that a hostile primate cannot make eye contact with you, is very upsetting and distressing to said primates.
I believe that by disallowing comments to his cartoons, Mr. Luckovich is wearing some figurative mirrored shades and thereby giving his primate opponents conniption fits.
Pass the Cheesy Grits Please
June 21st, 2012
1:33 pm
Jay, let’s face it, Obama is going to get creamed this November, you know it, I know it and so does everybody else.
That might be true if the Republicans had a very strong candidate.
Cheesy Grits aint it though.
Bruno
June 21st, 2012
1:34 pm
Here’s how Rush Limbaugh explained it to the faithful yesterday:
So Jay is still pushing the meme that Rush Limbaugh is the de facto head of the Republican Party, and that all (or even a substantial majority) of conservatives get their opinions from him??
And BTW, Jay, a big hearty welcome back. Even we lock-step, can’t-think-for-ourselves Cons missed you!!
1811/0311
June 21st, 2012
1:34 pm
MiltonMan:
You left out “Slick Willie” !
larry
June 21st, 2012
1:34 pm
I am with Obama on this: the private sector economy is doing just fine
I am too……….. With the average CEO pay at 9.6 million and the creation of over 4 million jobs since July 2009, I’d say they are doing pretty well.
Towncrier
June 21st, 2012
1:34 pm
“Fielding claimed certain papers relating to discussion of the friendly-fire shooting “implicate Executive Branch confidentiality interests” and would therefore not be turned over to the committee.”
By mentioning this, I guess you are conceding that Obama’s administration is likewise wrong to withhold FaF documents.
East Cobb RINO
June 21st, 2012
1:34 pm
” let’s face it, Obama is going to get creamed this November, you know it, I know it and so does everybody else.”
*************************************************
Obama may get creamed in your voting district and even the state of Ga, but it is a national election that requires 270 electoral votes to win. When you look at the electoral map (http://www.cnn.com/election/2012/ecalculator#?battleground) you will see that it comes down to a few swing states of which Romney would have to practically sweep to get the win.
But since most right wing nut jobs would dismiss a CNN electoral map as liberal bias, here is a link to a story on your beloved Fox News site detailing the task at hand for Romney….
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/05/09/obama-vs-romney-how-electoral-college-math-adds-up/
MiltonMan
June 21st, 2012
1:34 pm
“Ask the Tilman family about the Bush’s adminstration answer’s to how their son died.”
Libs and their “always comparing Obama to Bush” thought process. Bush was a crappy president. Why do you clowns keep comparing your man to him???
Joseph
June 21st, 2012
1:35 pm
larry:
Did they not get an answer?
Paulo977
June 21st, 2012
1:35 pm
Welcome back Jay ……any pics ?
F&F IS BORING !!!
Joe Hussein Mama
June 21st, 2012
1:36 pm
Joseph — “So what’s your take on the new failure of the administration? Not caring about the Terry family and helping them find answers as to how their son died… Is there really any way to cover for this on the left?”
I’m pretty sure that you’re not actually interested in what either of us have to say on the topic.
Williebkind
June 21st, 2012
1:37 pm
Hail to King Obama
Thank you for killing Osama
O King of Kings
Let his name sake ring
where enforcing the law is no such thing
Hail O hail King Obama.
Hail to Obama the Bolder
Using his power he protects his Holder
Hail O hail to mighty King Obama
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
June 21st, 2012
1:37 pm
Bush was a crappy president.
Hindsight is always 20/20.
getalife
June 21st, 2012
1:37 pm
“Bush was a crappy president. Why do you clowns keep comparing your man to him???”
You are the only con to admit this fact.
That is why.
Dekalb comments
June 21st, 2012
1:38 pm
My, my….reading the blog today has been really fun. I love to see the blood pressure of the conservatives rise. I do hope you have paid your health insurance premiums this month to pay for your medications.
No one from the Administration has suggested the events that unfolded under this program which was contrived by the Bush Administration should not be investigated. The issue is how the investigation should be investigated and which documents are relevant or helpful. Many Republicans, including Issa himself, are caught on camera saying this whole program was about scaring the American people into accepting gun control.
Issa is not interested in understanding what went wrong and what can be done to prevent it from happening in the future. He is looking for a needle in a haystack that shows this was all secretly devised to actually implement new gun controls. Since the Bushies loved them some guns, especially a Veep that shot a hunting partner in the face, how does that square with this conspiracy theory?
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
June 21st, 2012
1:38 pm
I’m pretty sure that you’re not actually interested in what either of us have to say on the topic.
Yep, just best to ignore
mikethe troll.Towncrier
June 21st, 2012
1:39 pm
“So Jay is still pushing the meme that Rush Limbaugh is the de facto head of the Republican Party, and that all (or even a substantial majority) of conservatives get their opinions from him??”
Is not something like this a standard tactic of propaganda? Rush is nothing but a political Howard Stern. How such people gain popularity speaks more to prurient or base interests than reason and morality.
Pass the Cheesy Grits Please
June 21st, 2012
1:39 pm
They tried to use the lie that this program started under the Bush administration
Umm it did start under Bush. They have been doing this sort of thing for years.
Bottom line most Americans dont care about this story. They realize its just a political witch hunt of the “swift boat” variety.
Its a non issue and wont have any effect on the election whatsoever.
The Fox news watching idiots who are getting pounded with this story weren’t going to vote for Obama anyway.
BTW things are looking very very good for Obama. He is building a lead in Florida and if he wins that state.
Game over. Thanks for playing Cheesy Grits.
ty webb
June 21st, 2012
1:40 pm
“…under this program which was contrived by the Bush Administration…”
same lie, third verse.
Pass the Cheesy Grits Please
June 21st, 2012
1:43 pm
Hail to King Romney
Thank you for saving the Olympics
O King of Kings
Let his name sake ring
where the poor dont matter and the rich get richer
Hail O hail King Romney
Hail to Romney the white one
Using his power he protects us from Liberals
Hail O hail to mighty King Romney
Long live the King !!!!!
getalife
June 21st, 2012
1:43 pm
ty,
It started under w and ended under President Obama.
The mindless cycle of gop destruction and dem cleaning up their mess should end by never voting gop.
Towncrier
June 21st, 2012
1:43 pm
“Issa is not interested in understanding what went wrong and what can be done to prevent it from happening in the future. He is looking for a needle in a haystack that shows this was all secretly devised to actually implement new gun controls.”
Even if he does (which I am not convinced of), I still want the documents to be see because I suspect Obama may have approved of the operation and he doesn’t want to own it (which is understandable but very dishonest).
stands for decibels
June 21st, 2012
1:44 pm
You still haven’t taken back your lie Jay. Rove was not held in contempt…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/13/AR2007121301736.html
A Senate panel found former presidential adviser Karl Rove and current White House Chief of Staff Joshua B. Bolten in contempt of Congress yesterday for refusing to testify and to turn over documents in the investigation of the firings of nine U.S. attorneys last year.
The Senate Judiciary Committee approved contempt citations against Rove and Bolten on a 12 to 7 vote, rejecting the White House position that the work of two of President Bush’s closest advisers is covered by executive privilege.
Joseph, I guess I shouldn’t hold my breath waiting for you to apologize to Jay for calling him a “liar”, should I?
1811/0311
June 21st, 2012
1:44 pm
“Some of the president’s most ardent entertainment industry supporters quietly tell The Hollywood Reporter that while they realize he needs to deploy all of his weapons to compete with deep-pocketed Republican super PACs, they fear the increasing reliance on stars and celebrity contests could backfire with swing voters and mobilize the right.”
“HORRYWOOD !”
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
June 21st, 2012
1:44 pm
Rush is nothing but a political Howard Stern.
Which is exactly what then Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele meant when he said “Rush Limbaugh is an entertainer. Rush Limbaugh — his whole thing is entertainment. He has this incendiary — yes, it’s ugly.”
But two days later, he had to walk it back.
ty webb
June 21st, 2012
1:45 pm
“It started under w and ended under President Obama.’
same lie, fourth verse.
getalife
June 21st, 2012
1:46 pm
ty,
Prove it.
Pass the Cheesy Grits Please
June 21st, 2012
1:46 pm
“…under this program which was contrived by the Bush Administration…”
same lie, third verse.
What part of Bush was basically doing the same thing dont you understand ?
Its like talking to a brick wall.
I don’t know why the Republicans are so upset with Operation Fast and Furious. It was started by President George W. Bush, and torture Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, as Operation Thunder. If the Republicans think it’s such a bad deal, they should have investigated it when Bush started it
Project Gunrunner was the overall plan. Project Gunrunner was composed of several separate and independent operations, such as; etrace, wide-receiver, and fast and furious. Operation Wide Receiver (2006-2007) was conducted under President’s Bush’s watch, was a failure and shut down. Operation Fast and Furious (2009-2011) was conducted under President Obama’s watch and was also a failure
Only difference was the number of guns.
Towncrier
June 21st, 2012
1:47 pm
“But two days later, he had to walk it back”
If that is really true, then Steele has few stones and perhaps should let someone else head the RNC.
Kingfish
June 21st, 2012
1:47 pm
Bojangles got caught. Spin/deny/quantify/explain/belittle it away any way you choose, but in the end, that is the truth.
JamVet
June 21st, 2012
1:48 pm
Ignore that we survived Jimmy Carter, Bush Jr. & now Obama.
You left out Reagan.
I can understand why the cons are so eager to understate El Pigbo’s status.
There is NO pundit in this country that has ever rivaled his power or influence. Not even the next five most powerful put together.
Every single Republican who has ever dared disagree with the “Godfather of the GOP”, ended up apologizing.
And the actual head of the RNC had to explain that it was HE and not Rush who held that title.
He is THE Oracle of Oracles for the neocons. And has been for thirty years…
Pass the Cheesy Grits Please
June 21st, 2012
1:48 pm
ty,
Prove it.
He cant.
But he can have a snappy comeback like say …
same lie. fifth verse.
East Cobb RINO
June 21st, 2012
1:48 pm
Someone else does lead the RNC. Rance Priebus (sp?).
ty webb
June 21st, 2012
1:49 pm
“It was started by President George W. Bush,”
same lie, fifth verse.
getalife
June 21st, 2012
1:49 pm
Apologize ty.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
June 21st, 2012
1:49 pm
Speaking of “executive privilege” how about “white privilege”.
DANGER WILL ROBINSON ……….. DANGER !
http://d-umn.campusreform.org/group/blog/university-sponsors-campaign-to-undermine-white-privilege
P.S. to josef:
Guess who’s next !
East Cobb RINO
June 21st, 2012
1:50 pm
But the fact that Rush Slimeball could get the leader of the RNC to bactrack on anything – stonts or no stones – does say a lot about who is calling the shots.
Erwin's cat
June 21st, 2012
1:51 pm
Why is “Bush did it too” an acceptable defense by those who consider Bush to be the worst of the worst?…are you intentionally trying to marginalize Obama???
FWIW I’m not a fan of either
getalife
June 21st, 2012
1:52 pm
Too late scout.
I warned you to treat other Americans better and now it is your turn.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
June 21st, 2012
1:52 pm
If that is really true…
It’s true, sport.
“My intent was not to go after Rush – I have enormous respect for Rush Limbaugh,” Steele said in a telephone interview. “I was maybe a little bit inarticulate. … There was no attempt on my part to diminish his voice or his leadership.”
…then Steele has few stones and perhaps should let someone else head the RNC.
Steele is no longer Chairman of the Republican National Committee, Reince Priebus is.
ty webb
June 21st, 2012
1:52 pm
“Only difference was the number of guns.’
different lie, new verse.
Joe Hussein Mama
June 21st, 2012
1:54 pm
East Cobb RINO — “Someone else does lead the RNC. Rance Priebus (sp?).”
His name is Reince Priebus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reince_Priebus
For fun, remove all the vowels from his name, and you get
RNC PR BS
They BOTH suck
June 21st, 2012
1:55 pm
Ty
Fast and Furious was not started under Bush. That is true
Operation “Wide Receiver” was implemented and conducted during the Bush administration. I wont throw in any info about what it was, but will ask you to check it out when you have a few minutes.
So if you are saying that “Fast and Furious” as an individual operation, you are correct. If you are saying similar operations didn’t take place then you are being naive or playing dumb for the sake of playing dumb.
Erwin's cat
June 21st, 2012
1:55 pm
“RNC PR BS”
too funny
East Cobb RINO
June 21st, 2012
1:56 pm
Thanks Joe, I thought I had butchered the last name spelling more than the first.
GT
June 21st, 2012
1:58 pm
The operation, run by ATF’s Tucson office and the U.S. Attorney for Arizona, started in 2006 — when George W. Bush’s Attorney General Alberto Gonzales was running the show — and ran until the end of 2007. No charges were filed. Most of us didn’t know about this program until the papers showed up on this congressional hearing. Arizona, guns, Mexico, shot congresswomen what a great place to have a gun program like this run by the Republican Party and no wonder no one knew about it until five years later.
They BOTH suck
June 21st, 2012
1:58 pm
ty
Figured I would lend you a hand and give you time to correct your talking pts and maybe even get some new ones.
No problem. Don’t mention it. Glad I could assist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
ty webb
June 21st, 2012
1:58 pm
they both suck,
come on, had “operations” had multiple differences. Every lie I’ve called out, has been a lie. Please keep you “ifs”, it would speak well of your character.
ty webb
June 21st, 2012
1:59 pm
sorry, “had” was supposed to be “both”.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
June 21st, 2012
1:59 pm
getalife:
You miss the point.
The “Jews” will be next. They always get the “privilege” blame.
You libs
June 21st, 2012
2:00 pm
Remember how Ali would lean on the ropes and cover up and let his opponent overextend himself to the point of exertion? Rope-a-dope, he called it. Remember what happened next?
Issa’s flailing away. It’ll end up being another overreach that blows up in the GOP’s face, you watch. They hate Obama so much, they’re blinded to the way his political ju-jitsu has mastered them.
Obozo, indeed. heh.
They BOTH suck
June 21st, 2012
2:00 pm
ty
Let facts be your friend. Someone like yourself, might be a little uncomfortable with them at the start, but you will come around. Sort of like someone who hasn’t worked out in awhile. If they keep at it the soreness will subside.
Pay close attention to the DATES
“The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) ran a series of “gunwalking” sting operations[2][3] between 2006[4] and 2011.[2][5] This was done under the umbrella of Project Gunrunner, a project intended to stem the flow of firearms into Mexico by interdicting straw purchasers and gun traffickers within the United States.[6] “Gunwalking” or “letting guns walk” was a tactic whereby the ATF knowingly allowed thousands of guns to be bought by suspected arms traffickers (”gunrunners”) working through straw purchasers on behalf of Mexican drug cartels.[7]“
Joseph
June 21st, 2012
2:01 pm
stands for decibels
Well Deputy Nancy admitted he wasn’t held in contempt… Read and educate..
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/21/rove-pelosi-dead-wrong-to-claim-could-have-had-him-arrested/Enter your comments here
mm
June 21st, 2012
2:01 pm
I ignore the blog for a week, then come back and find the cons are still telling the same old lies.
You go Obama, tell Issa to stick it so far up his @ss he’ll taste executive privilige for a month.
Issa has been looking under every rock to find anything he can call a scandal. Typical GOP governance.Twiddle your thumbs while America burns to the ground, then blame the other party.
And my lord, Romney can’t finish a sentence without telling a lie. But that’s no surprise. He’s a republican.
The media is scared of the GOP because they know they will be attacked, then fired. Just ask Dan Rather.
They BOTH suck
June 21st, 2012
2:01 pm
ty: continued…………. just for you my friend
The first known ATF “gunwalking” operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007. Licensed dealer Mike Detty informed the ATF of a suspicious gun purchase that took place in February 2006 in Tucson, Arizona. In March he was hired as a confidential informant working with the ATF’s Tucson office, part of their Phoenix, Arizona field division.[23] With the use of surveillance equipment, ATF agents monitored additional sales by Detty to straw purchasers. With assurance from ATF “that Mexican officials would be conducting surveillance or interdictions when guns got to the other side of the border”,[24] Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation.[22] These included AR-15s, semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles, and Colt .38s. The vast majority of the guns were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.[7][23][25]
Jm-pass TSPLOST silly people
June 21st, 2012
2:02 pm
Bush’s fault. Always is.
ty webb
June 21st, 2012
2:03 pm
they both suck,
what in your 2:00 refutes anything I’ve posted? Me thinks your looking for an argument for argument’s sake.
They BOTH suck
June 21st, 2012
2:04 pm
ty: I’m trying to help you, buddy, but you must be willing to help yourself………… I can only lend you a hand.
“At the time, under the Bush administration Department of Justice (DOJ), no arrests or indictments were made. After President Barack Obama took office in 2009, the DOJ reviewed Wide Receiver in September 2009[26] and found that guns had been allowed into the hands of suspected gun traffickers. Indictments began in 2010, over three years after Wide Receiver concluded. As of October 4, 2011 (2011 -10-04)[update], nine people had been charged with making false statements in acquisition of firearms and illicit transfer, shipment or delivery of firearms.[18] As of November, charges against one defendant had been dropped; five of them had pled guilty, and one had been sentenced to one year and one day in prison. Two of them remained fugitives.[23]
Another, smaller probe occurred in 2007 under the same ATF Phoenix field division. It began when the ATF identified Mexican suspects who bought weapons from a Phoenix gun shop over a span of several months. The probe ultimately involved over 200 guns, a dozen of which were lost in Mexico. On September 27, 2007, ATF agents saw the original suspects buying weapons at the same store and followed them toward the Mexican border. The ATF informed the Mexican government when the suspects successfully crossed the border, but Mexican law enforcement were unable to track them.[4][10]
Less than two weeks later, on October 6, William Newell, then ATF’s special agent in charge of the Phoenix field division, shut down the operation at the behest of William Hoover, ATF’s assistant director for the office of field operations.[27] No charges were filed. Newell, who was special agent in charge from June 2006 to May 2011, would later play a major role in Operation Fast and Furious.[4][24]”
Now what were you mentioning earlier? As you noted I have not exonerated not implicated President Obama nor Eric Holder, but I DID show the error of your ways on this issue
Good day
ty webb
June 21st, 2012
2:05 pm
they both suck,
that question goes for your 2:01 too…friend.
Steve Atl
June 21st, 2012
2:05 pm
Bottomline…someone’s son, father, grandson, friend, husband was killed as a result of the botched operation. The 2 of the highest offices in the land…President and Attorney General of the US…refuse to cooperate.
That is wrong. Period.
ty webb
June 21st, 2012
2:07 pm
they both suck,
and your 2:04.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
June 21st, 2012
2:07 pm
Bottomline…someone’s son, father, grandson, friend, husband was killed as a result of the botched operation.
The smoking gun is the mushroom cloud.
They BOTH suck
June 21st, 2012
2:07 pm
ty
Nope. Project Gunrunner had multiple operations that included Wider Receiver and F&F. Both operations had the same goal and did the same thing……. SOLD and Tracked weapons……… It did start under Bush
So saying people are lying, is being disingenuous at best
Joseph
June 21st, 2012
2:07 pm
What’s up with all the dems not going to the convention?
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
June 21st, 2012
2:08 pm
Steve Atl. :
It’s not that they won’t cooperate ……….. they “can’t”.
To do so would be stabbing oneself in the foot.
They’re hiding something. No other reason.
It’s up to Congress to dig it out !
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
June 21st, 2012
2:09 pm
Joseph:
It’s called I want to win my local election ………………………
ty webb
June 21st, 2012
2:09 pm
“but I DID show the error of your ways on this issue”
not a lie, but not based in fact, and also incorrect.
Hootinanny Yum Yum
June 21st, 2012
2:10 pm
“Only difference was the number of guns.”
Not so.
One ended when internal management determined the program wasn’t achieving the desired results. This was probably preceded by agents raising the flag and calling BS.
The other ended after disclosure one of the guns used in a Border Patrol agent’s death was made public. The agents who attempted to raise the flag were ostracized. Supervisors received lateral promotions.
No, the difference is more than just the number of guns.
How long would have Fast & Furious continued had the information regarding the weapon involved in the Brian Terry incident had not been disclosed?
Holder should step down. Period.
ty webb
June 21st, 2012
2:10 pm
“It did start under Bush”
same lie; fifth, sixth, or seventh verse.
Joseph
June 21st, 2012
2:11 pm
The dem convention in Charlotte is about as popular as a trip to the dentist… LOL…
GT
June 21st, 2012
2:11 pm
The heat on the ATF is because it is the watchdog of the gun laws and the NRA thinks they’re out to get them. Without the NRA the Republican Party is a dead language. I can promise you Bush’s motivation was not gun laws when he invented the “walk” blueprint, his character was not that strong, though compared to Newt and others he appeared taller.
The control of these gun laws were loose long before Bush or O got involved. Bad men going to an Arizona gun auction and buying ,easily, guns that end up in Mexico or anywhere these bad men decide to take them. The ATF henchmen have done a super job of drawing our attention away from that fact and onto the trivial.
Adam
June 21st, 2012
2:12 pm
i admit it happens on both sides, but one thing that is true, the economy still sux and the leadership in office has done nothing..and arguments and new weekly headlines to deter from it…wont work…
Admitting that it happens on both sides to yourself is fine, as it helps you to understand that one side is not completely pure. However, pushing the message that both sides do it implies that they both do it equally, more or less, and that it therefore has no meaning that they do it at all AND/OR, that because both sides do it you should not vote for either side. That is what I find disturbing about the “both sides do it” muddying the waters, tu quoque, I’m-rubber-you’re-glue ways of putting it.
If you think both sides suck, and you loudly proclaim this, you have a goal in mind. If you think only one side sucks but you proclaim loudly that both sides suck, you have a goal in mind. In either case, that goal includes distraction from issues. If you acknowledge to yourself that both sides suck and you need to look at them more carefully, then that’s just fine. It’s the difference between persuasion of others and serious examination of the issues.
Hootinanny Yum Yum
June 21st, 2012
2:13 pm
“Only difference was the number of guns.”
Another difference was that in one operation, the Mexican government notified when guns were crossing the border. In the other, Mexican authorities were never notified. Ever.
Middle of the Road
June 21st, 2012
2:14 pm
“What’s up with all the dems not going to the convention?”
Kind of sad really, but not an uncommon practice especially during the nomination convention of a sitting President. Eight House Republicans including four from Pennsylvania sat out the 2004 convention for essentially the same so-called reasons that the current ones are stating.
Of course, the true reason in almost all cases is that I need to do everything I can to improve my chances for re-election.
Adam
June 21st, 2012
2:14 pm
JHM: No, it’s just that most of the regulars don’t even bother to respond to you any more.
ty webb
June 21st, 2012
2:14 pm
“Both operations had the same goal and did the same thing”
a related lie, first verse.
Adam
June 21st, 2012
2:15 pm
Towncrier: He does those of us on the right no favors with his over-the-top and often mean-spirited rhetoric.
I am glad you recognize that. But what is it going to take for that to permeate and for people to stop listening to his program, and ones like it, and return to civility and reasoned arguments on the issues?
ty webb
June 21st, 2012
2:15 pm
“Another difference was that in one operation, the Mexican government notified when guns were crossing the border. In the other, Mexican authorities were never notified. Ever.”
hootinanny,
great point, though many here refuse to hear it.
Paul
June 21st, 2012
2:15 pm
If Congress was driven by law and not by egos, the question would be “is there sufficient evidence that, if presented to a judge, would constitute grounds for issuing a search warrant?”
It’s pretty clear the answer is “No.”
But egos are in play, so the answer is “who cares?”
Towncrier
June 21st, 2012
2:16 pm
From the wiki:
“In October 2011, documents were released that indicated Holder was sent memos in regards to Operation Fast and Furious in 2010, contradicting Holder’s sworn testimony before the House Judiciary Committee in which he said he was unaware of Operation Fast and Furious until April 2011. In response, Lamar Smith, the chairman of the Judiciary Committee, sent a letter to President Obama, requesting the appointment of an independent special counsel to investigate whether Holder committed perjury by lying to the committee while under oath.”
Holder kind of ratcheted things up quite a bit by contradicting himself about something no one can understand why he would have out of plain ignorance or forgetfulness. That is the proverbial “smoke” in this matter.
phil
June 21st, 2012
2:16 pm
Limbaugh’s theory sounds reasonable in a way. Nothing would surprise me coming from this administration. Or any of the past administrations for that matter.
Joseph
June 21st, 2012
2:16 pm
Here is a prime example of how pathetic dems are and the real issue at hand with the contempt of Holder!
http://youtu.be/Gbcsw5TPyas
Adam
June 21st, 2012
2:16 pm
A federal agent is killed and you liberals
I love how quickly these guys pick up the daily talking points when they think they’re winning.
Joe Hussein Mama
June 21st, 2012
2:18 pm
H. Yum Yum — “Another difference was that in one operation, the Mexican government notified when guns were crossing the border. In the other, Mexican authorities were never notified. Ever.”
Let me ask you a question.
If the positions were reversed, and the Mexican government had run both operations, would it really matter to you if they had notified the US about criminals hauling unregistered firearms across the border or not? In other words, wouldn’t you be upset *regardless* of whether Mexico had notified us or not?
Joseph
June 21st, 2012
2:18 pm
Shamefull!!!! Carney didn’t even know the murdered federal agents name!
From the Center
June 21st, 2012
2:18 pm
Fly-On-The-Wall
June 21st, 2012
10:18 am
The real truth doesn’t matter to Democrates or Republicans these days. They only want to see their version of the truth and be damned to everyone/everything else.
It is a Presidental election year so all of the crazies come out of the wood work. The problem is that they are all crazy so there isn’t a leader or statesman to help control the nuts in the parties as in the past.
Fixed it for you
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Adam
June 21st, 2012
2:18 pm
Bruno: So Jay is still pushing the meme that Rush Limbaugh is the de facto head of the Republican Party, and that all (or even a substantial majority) of conservatives get their opinions from him??
Rush says it, and the people on here say it. This happens often, but not on every point he makes. Can we say for sure Rush is the origin? No. Can we say that the talking points definitely match up, and the belief does as well, particularly if repeated enough over time? Yes.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
June 21st, 2012
2:18 pm
ty’s melting down
Too funny!
Hootinanny Yum Yum
June 21st, 2012
2:19 pm
I also believe the Issa and other Republicans should set the issue aside. It is just ONE example of how poorly this administration has performed.
Fast & Furious should just be one of the arrows in the GOP’s quiver to bring about the change that is needed.
Paul
June 21st, 2012
2:19 pm
mm
“Issa has been looking under every rock to find anything he can call a scandal. Typical GOP governance”
Kinda reminds one of Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald and the Plame investigation, eh? If Congress really wanted to play “Go Fish” they should press for appointment of a Special Prosecutor. Spend $30 million or so, drag it out for a couple of years. But that’s only if you know the answer going in, so it would take longer and cost more.
Joseph
June 21st, 2012
2:21 pm
The House passes another jobs bill to create jobs that will probably be shut down by the senate. It seems dems want Americans to continue to struggle and depend on gubmint.
http://rigell.house.gov/news/email/show.aspx?ID=6GT2G7IPT7PVEKDWAIUIL5MIVQ