Bill Kristol offers solution: Yep, you guessed it
War.
Whatever the problem, the ever-eager Bill Kristol believes that other people dying can solve it. The ardent cheerleader of our invasion of Iraq, where more than 4,400 U.S. soldiers died for a cause yet to reveal itself, now champions that same “solution” for Iran, a much more difficult problem. And in a piece in the Weekly Standard, complete with requisite Churchill quote, he and co-author Jamie Fly argue that if President Obama doesn’t do it, Congress should intervene:
Bill Kristol
“President Obama says a nuclear Iran is unacceptable. The real and credible threat of force is probably the last hope of persuading the Iranian regime to back down. So: Isn’t it time for the president to ask Congress for an Authorization for Use of Military Force against Iran’s nuclear program?
Instead of running away from it, administration officials could be putting the military option front and center and ensuring it is seen as viable. And if the administration flinches, Congress could consider passing such an authorization anyway. While any commander in chief has the constitutional authority to take urgent action to protect Americans and their interests, such legislation would give weight to the president’s commitment to preventing Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons. It would strengthen the president’s hand. It would show Tehran that America’s policy of preventing an Iranian nuclear weapon is a credible one. Bipartisan support for such an authorization would remove the issue as much as possible from the turmoil of election year politics. And the authorization could also make clear that the United States would come to Israel’s aid in the event that it decides it needs to take action….
We don’t expect the Obama administration to request an Authorization for Use of Military Force. But Congress can act without such a request. By doing so, it would serve the nation’s interest, and, indeed, the administration’s, if the administration means what it says.
Surely it is time for a concentration of congressional opinion and force capable of lifting our efforts to the level of emergency. The Obama administration may be committed to leading from behind, but Congress can choose to lead from the front.
– Jay Bookman
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3,136 comments Add your comment
Tundra Dude
June 18th, 2012
8:36 am
William the Warmonger
3 kids, 2 female, the one son Joe was ROTC (USMC) at Hahvahd, 2009. Don’t know if he did active duty.
Don't Tread
June 18th, 2012
8:36 am
Whatever the problem, the ever-eager Jay Bookman believes that other people’s money can solve it.
Alfred Neumann
June 18th, 2012
8:38 am
Jay – Bite Me
Dekalb comments
June 18th, 2012
8:38 am
Paul @ 8:16 a.m.
I think whether a potential commander-in-chief, Congress critter that could vote to authorize military force or a pundit cheerleading for war has personally served or had a member of their immediate family serve is highly relevant.
Because we have had an all-volunteer force that statistically is comprised disproportionately of minorities and those from lower income families, those that take decisions to go to war have no “skin in the game”. They really have no personal understanding of the fear, concern and pain that long periods of separation from family and friends or being injured or killed in war means.
I’m not suggesting one needs to have served or have had a family member serve to be fit as President or to serve in Congress but to say that personal experience is irrelevant is off the mark.
barking frog
June 18th, 2012
8:39 am
Mick
When you live in paradise
a brief ride through hell is
an interesting change of
scenery.
Brosephus™
June 18th, 2012
8:41 am
dB @ 8:13
I got away from the pc after that. Reading some of the stuff that was posted made me really think about those who talk about this being a “Christian Nation”. Some people here must have lives that really suck ass.
stands for decibels
June 18th, 2012
8:42 am
a brief ride through hell
Wichita isn’t quite THAT bad.
Brosephus™
June 18th, 2012
8:42 am
Whatever the problem, the ever-eager Jay Bookman believes that other people’s money can solve it.
Care to point out anything up above that even remotely suggests using someone else’s money, or are we reduced to pulling out leftovers from a colonoscopy?
Paul
June 18th, 2012
8:43 am
Mr_B
Pakistan’s main external adversary is India, a nuclear country with whom they’ve had military clashes that have, once or twice, escalated to the point where a nuclear exchange was a real possibility. Both countries pulled back.
Israel’s acquisition was purely defensive. Given the number, location stated intentions of their adversaries, some would say it is indicative of their understanding of the gravity of what may occur that strengthens the view of Israeli soberness regarding this issue.
Iran, however, has done nothing to reassure its neighbors (Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Kuwait, Oman, etc) that its views on domination are benign. The fact we have a Party in power, traditionally seen as the more reticent when it comes to military adventurism, let by a President who was a staunch opponent of involvement in Iraq and who understands the dangers of faulty interpretation of intelligence, who view a nuclear-armed Iran as a threat to peace should lead one to consider this is not an assessment made lightly.
Mick
June 18th, 2012
8:44 am
frog
Interesting comment…but if kansas ain’t close enough to heaven, I don’t know what is?
Doggone/GA
June 18th, 2012
8:44 am
“Because we have had an all-volunteer force that statistically is comprised disproportionately of minorities and those from lower income families, those that take decisions to go to war have no “skin in the game”.”
and when has it ever been any different? The Founding Fathers had very good reasons for putting control of the military in CIVILIAN hands. If you don’t think so, let me refer to to what is happening in Egypt right now…where the military is grabbing all the power it can.
Brosephus™
June 18th, 2012
8:45 am
Mick
Enjoy the ride.
Mick
June 18th, 2012
8:46 am
jm
If you are out there, you’re always harping about greece, krugman explains it all quite clearly as to why they have fiscal problems…
stands for decibels
June 18th, 2012
8:47 am
Some people here must have lives that really suck ass.
Just to continue being a ray of sunshine here–consider that our “USMC” played the “Anti-Semite” card on Jay.
Amazing love how anyone could possibly imagine that Jay’s take on Kristol has *any* overlap whatsoever with that nutbag blogger’s, that I linked to @ 8.23.
USMC, if you want to see anti-Semitism, and not mere criticism of a guy who happens to be Jewish, thar ’tis.
Mick
June 18th, 2012
8:48 am
brosephus
Thanks…just taking advantage of these wide open spaces…
barking frog
June 18th, 2012
8:50 am
The supreme law of the
land says that the most
experienced military commander will
take orders from a man
with no military experience
at all. It has worked for
over 200 years and seems
to be working now.
Dekalb comments
June 18th, 2012
8:51 am
Doggone @ 8:44
Are you suggesting I think the military should not be under civilian control? I have made no statement that could be read that way.
What I am saying is if you yourself have personally served or have worried about a loved one that has been or could be put in harms way, it has an effect on how quickly you ready to promote military action.
I do not believe personal service is a pre-requisite to making sound, rational decisions about the use of military force but I think those with experience or some personal “skin in the game” weigh and make those decisions with a bit more gravity.
stands for decibels
June 18th, 2012
8:52 am
krugman explains it all quite clearly
Mick, no offense, but given how the conservatives have worked tirelessly the past coupla years to make Paul Krugman both a) a household word, and b) a pariah to anyone who even considers voting Republican–do you really expect a “jm” to read his take on greece with anything but a jaundiced eye?
Don’t get me wrong, I think Krugthulu is da bomb and I wish the establishment Dems would regard him as something other than an irritant, but let’s do keep reality in view.
barking frog
June 18th, 2012
8:52 am
Mick
Dorothy caught a ride on
a tornado to get out of
Kansas..
alan
June 18th, 2012
8:52 am
For all of you advocates to invade Iran, why don’t you be in next in line after Mr. Kristol down at the Marines or Army Recruiting Depots. If you are to old, take your sons and daughters down there.
It’s easy to advocate for any war when someone is dying. But yet, these so called hawks won’t volunteer themselves nor won’t their loved ones to join the service.
Mr. Romney feels we should take more decisive action against Syria but I don’t see any of his boys volunteering to fight for a free Syria. As my former platoon sergeant said in Korea one afternoon, Mr. Kristol “is as full of stuff as a Christmas turkey.”
I wonder how many sons and daughters of the neo-cons like Mr. Kristol or Paul Wolfowitz died in Iraq? Why didn’t Mr. Bush daughters volunteer for the armed services.
Anyone who want to fight a war but don’t want to put themselves or their children on the front line but is willing to let another person’s child die is selling nothing more than snake oil.
The only bright spot is that one day they will have to give an account to God for their actions.
Paul
June 18th, 2012
8:53 am
DeKalb comments
The view of the military as over-represented by poor and minorities may have been true decades ago but is not correct of today’s military.
http://www.rand.org/publications/randreview/issues/fall2006/volunteer.html
Also, I’m not trying to say such experience is irrelevant. I’m taking issue with the idea those who didn’t serve (aside from some right-wing think take and internet talking heads) should not be dismissed from consideration for high-level elected office.
Doggone/GA
June 18th, 2012
8:54 am
“but I think those with experience or some personal “skin in the game” weigh and make those decisions with a bit more gravity.”
And I think you underestimate the ability of people to make decisions REGARDLESS of their personal experience, or the experience of those in their family. Either for or against war. People like BK can spout off all they want, because they are secure in the knowledge that no matter what they say it is not THEY who has the power to actually start anything. It’s all “sound and fury, signifying nothing” – until people like you MAKE it significant. It is not.
Paul
June 18th, 2012
8:54 am
DeKalb
Make that “should be dismissed from consideration”
barking frog
June 18th, 2012
9:00 am
The US military is all
volunteer even the
National Guard and we
have fought all recent
wars with not much more
casualty rate than would
have occurred on the
highway if they were home.
They did not volunteer to
cut trees in Kansas.
Peadawg
June 18th, 2012
9:01 am
alan
June 18th, 2012
8:52 am
amen!
Mr_B
June 18th, 2012
9:03 am
Paul:
Since the Islamic Revolution Iran has never engaged in a aggressive war against any of its neighbors. The Iranians seem to be more interested in maintaining and expanding Sh’ia brand Islam than anything else. I admit that the Iranians frequently act through Sh’ia proxies: notably Hiz’ballah, and have propped up the Alawite Syrian regime against its Sunni majority population.
But these folks aren’t stupid; they know that they could never win in a nuclear exchange.
Paul
June 18th, 2012
9:06 am
For those who want to make military service a prerequisite for high elective office under the theory we’d be less likely to engage in catastrophic military actions,
just consider the possibility of ending up with a Curtis LeMay or a Douglas MacArthur instead of a Colin Powell.
Granny Godzilla - Union Thugette
June 18th, 2012
9:08 am
are getting the SCOUTUS healthcare decision within the hour?
Mr_B
June 18th, 2012
9:09 am
just consider the possibility of ending up with a Curtis LeMay or a Douglas MacArthur instead of a Colin Powell.
Excellent point, Paul, but some here would think that would be a GOOD thing.
Paul
June 18th, 2012
9:10 am
Mr. B
One does not have to explicitly state ‘we are going to wage aggressive war’ to be considered a grave problem by one’s neighbors.
If a country is interested in expanding Shia Islam, how do we think they’ll do it? By sending out teams of missionaries? Or providing radical opposition groups with weapons?
Some would make the point that, today, for a country in that region to pursue a nuclear weapons capability, is itself a sign of irrationality. At least by how we view things.
Paul
June 18th, 2012
9:11 am
Mr. B 9:09
AAAUUUGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
stands for decibels
June 18th, 2012
9:11 am
Honestly, I find these “why don’t you chickenhawks serve and/or send your own kids to the front lines” about as pointless as the conservatives who post “why don’t you people supporting higher taxes voluntarily write checks to Uncle Sam?”
What both arguments have in common, is that they both might be effective upon first or second hearing, but they’re easily rationalized away, and I’m sure anyone hearing them now are going to regard them as timeworn and utterly ignorable.
If you doubt this, ask yourself–next time a rightie complains that lefties don’t live perfectly sustainable existences and drive cars/have electricity/etc., and thus can’t judge environmental policies until they’re perfectly pure themselves, are you going to bother even *taking* that bait, or are you just going to roll your eyes and scroll on past?
Paul
June 18th, 2012
9:13 am
Mr. B
I asked the question, on a couple of occasions over the last couple years, of our liberal bloggers to apply the same standard of proof to Pres Obama’s assertions on Iran that the bloggers applied to Pres Bush regarding WMDs in Iraq, and to then tell us how Pres Obama arrived at his conclusions.
It didn’t get much of a response, as I recall.
Just shows how difficult some of these situations can be to understand.
Thomas
June 18th, 2012
9:13 am
I think Krugthulu is da bomb
Krugman is a drunken one trick pony fool “print more money” “print more money”
It takes two brain cell to memorize that schtick
Brosephus™
June 18th, 2012
9:17 am
To chime in on the serve/not serve issue, I could really care less. I would much rather we get qualified candidates that have a measurable amount of common damn sense. Given the fact that we tend to elect people who are representative of us as a whole, it doesn’t seem like there’s an ample supply of common sense left here in the US. Makes me wonder if we outsourced that along with the jobs.
Paul
June 18th, 2012
9:18 am
Thomas
“It takes two brain cell to memorize that schtick”
Are you referring to Krugman’s column or to your first two paragraphs?
(nothing personal, just ‘never let a good straight line go to waste’)
josef
June 18th, 2012
9:19 am
It’s not as much the Iranian nuclear capacities that concerns me as it is with the nuts there in charge of the button…
SFD
@ 8:47
That bothers me, too. Anti Semitism is a very real thing and is growing by leaps and bounds on the left. But let’s not go throwing the term around any time a person who happens to be Jewish is being criticised.
cranky old man
June 18th, 2012
9:21 am
Things have changed since Bill Kristol served in the military, but that doesn’ mean his tactical , operational, and strategic knowledge and experience should not be respected.
Bruno
June 18th, 2012
9:26 am
But, bottom line, I’m seeing what I saw with Viet Nam in the latter stages of the war…burned out, used up young men with no hope. You would have thought we would have learned something there.
This environment of never-ending war with an all volunteer military comprised disproportionately of minorities and those from lower-income families is unsustainable. Our men and women in uniform deserve better from our civilian leaders.
Normal and Dekalb–I work with the troops week in and week out, and see none of the discouragement that you speak of. Maybe it was that way a few years ago with the never-ending tours in Iraq, but not now. In fact, most of the officers look forward to deployment since it helps advance their careers.
As per the disproportionate representation of minorities in the military, that is mostly due to the fact that a military career gives them an opportunity to have a secure job with benefits and a nice retirement at the end, all with only a high school diploma. In terms of danger to themselves, there are many other jobs with a much higher rate of injury and death, such as fisherman.
I understand y’all’s opposition to war, and I share it, but I think your characterization of the mindset of the average soldier is off base.
Mick
June 18th, 2012
9:26 am
stands
If jm or anyone else cannot read, comprehend, and just acknowledge that krugman is just telling it like it is from his perspective; I think an economics professor at princeton just might have the credentials???
godless heathen
June 18th, 2012
9:26 am
Since government regulates business, if you haven’t served as a CEO of a major corporation then you should have no input on regulations.
If you haven’t been on welfare, you should have not vote on how it should be managed.
If you have never drilled an oil well, you know nothing about well drilling and therefore you should have no say in where or how wells are drilled.
Brosephus™
June 18th, 2012
9:27 am
josef
You know things gotta be getting pretty bad at home when the WaPo’s running this…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/alabama-law-drives-out-illegal-immigrants-but-also-has-unexpected-consequences/2012/06/17/gJQA3Rm0jV_story.html
Washington Post insensitivity towards minorities in their coverage
June 18th, 2012
9:27 am
http://conscientousethnicchris.wordpress.com/2012/06/01/biased-critic-of-the-month-michael-osullivan-of-the-washington-post/
Doggone/GA
June 18th, 2012
9:28 am
If you’ve never been in space you should have no say is now NASA is funded
stands for decibels
June 18th, 2012
9:31 am
I think an economics professor at princeton just might have the credentials?
Krugman is a hack. He might’ve had some chops but that was long ago. The celebrity has gone to his head. And anyway, that’s LIBERAL Princeton, and he was educated by LIBERALS so of course his “print more money” schtick is worthless. And the Nobel prize is awarded by idiots with an agenda.
(how’d I do?)
Finn McCool (The System Isn't Broken; It's Fixed ~ from an Occupy sign)
June 18th, 2012
9:32 am
Ya’ll see Romney on tv yesterday? wow.
Do we need to take a poll as to when we think Romney will take his first stand on an issue? I’m talking about one he takes without changing it within seven days?
Talking Head
June 18th, 2012
9:32 am
If Obama wants to take action against Iran, he will just do what he’s done in the past. Bypass Congress and start bombing in his dictatorial fashion.
However, Bill Kristol is an idiot.
Tundra Dude
June 18th, 2012
9:35 am
If you’ve never been in space you should have no say is now NASA is funded
lol!! Good Wun!
Does “spaced out” count??
Bruno
June 18th, 2012
9:35 am
I was bracing myself for some similarly classless jibes at the expense of RFK Jr. over his estranged wife’s suicide.
She wasn’t one of “those people.”
sfd and Mr B–Out of curiosity, what does Rodney Kink represent to you?? Is he worthy of some type of praise?? Did either of you support the King riots in 1992 in which Korean shopkeepers were targeted??
BTW–If anyone here wants to kick my ass for 60 seconds and then give me $3.8 million dollars, I’m in!!
kayaker 71
June 18th, 2012
9:35 am
So, all you armchair doves out there…… If sanctions fail to produce results and people dying in the streets from hunger do not produce a halt to nuclear weapons development in Iran, what is your answer to the problem? Is the new norm a nuclear powered Iran? Seems that over 8% unemployment is nothing to worry about and 16T dollar debt doesn’t seem to bother you. Our elected officials making gazillions of dollars off of insider stock trades. Are all these things the new norm? Where do we draw the line and, more importantly, how do we do it?
Brosephus™
June 18th, 2012
9:35 am
Washington Post insensitivity towards minorities in their coverage
I don’t read movie reviews from any newspaper. The only person that could tell me whether or not I’ll like a movie is me.
—————————–
dB
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RyB3QrStk8M/Tf6B9BVjmrI/AAAAAAAAAb8/UQ3G7PJpIA8/s1600/alg_dancing_judges.jpg
Doggone/GA
June 18th, 2012
9:35 am
“(how’d I do?)”
Pretty good actually…I almost took you seriously!
Finn McCool (The System Isn't Broken; It's Fixed ~ from an Occupy sign)
June 18th, 2012
9:36 am
if you haven’t served as a CEO of a major corporation then you should have no input on regulations.
So, if your unborn baby develops 3 arms and you can directly link it back to having drunk from your well that was poisoned by that CEO’s company which was allowed to resume dumping waste after they got rid of the regulation preventing it, you shouldn’t maybe have a say?
You probably don’t want the family to be allowed to sue, either, correct?
Doggone/GA
June 18th, 2012
9:38 am
If you don’t eat meat you should have no say in how animals are slaughtered
godless heathen
June 18th, 2012
9:40 am
I’ve always liked Bill Crystal since back in the days of Soap. Really funny and he’s done a good jobs on them awards shows.
Finn McCool (The System Isn't Broken; It's Fixed ~ from an Occupy sign)
June 18th, 2012
9:40 am
If you’ve never seen John Boehner working on his tan, then you have no right to comment on that tan.
Normal Free...Pro Human Rights Thug...And liking it!
June 18th, 2012
9:41 am
Bruno
June 18th, 2012
9:26 am
Bruno,
You say you work with Officers and that may be the problem…if you work with officers alone.
Officers have more benefits and privileges than the enlisted soldier and do consider a war zone good for advancement. Officer’s will get the ribbon and the “bennies” without having to “walk the road”. You can’t help but notice that the Enlisted to officer death ratio is rather high. The enlisted man, from Top Sgt down to the dog face is the sharp point of the spear. They have death staring at them everyday and night.
As an aside. Remember too, that our Newt said that Illegal aliens could find a path to citizenship by serving in the Military. I found that most interesting, one because newt said it
and two, it serves as a flag that if we are even considering Illegal Aliens to serve in our military, recruitment must really suck…and read the history of Rome and their foreign/mercenary armies during the latter years of their fall…
———————-
Paul,
While I think of Truman and Eisenhower has prime examples of military Presidents, I do realize the folly of a military man as President now….but we do need civilian leaders who are less apt to pull a sword and more apt to talk.
As Asimov said: ” Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent”.
Doggone/GA
June 18th, 2012
9:41 am
“If you’ve never seen John Boehner working on his tan, then you have no right to comment on that tan”
Bad example…every time he is outdoors on a sunny day giving a speech he is ALSO working on his tan.
Brosephus™
June 18th, 2012
9:43 am
sfd and Mr B–Out of curiosity, what does Rodney Kink represent to you?? Is he worthy of some type of praise?? Did either of you support the King riots in 1992 in which Korean shopkeepers were targeted??
Although not directed at me directly, I’ll answer since I was accused of liberal gobbledygook yesterday for addressing King’s passing.
#1 King represents any other person who’s ever struggled with personal demons. The fact that he took what can only be described as a USDA Grade A asswhipping and still found it in his heart to forgive the people who could have taken his life, says that he was more human than some of the people who can only criticize him.
#2 While I don’t think anybody was praising him, the fact that he clearly stated his forgiveness of those who beat him to near death is extremely noteworthy in my book. When somebody actually praises him, then I think that person sees something worthy, and you should ask that person, if you get the chance, to see what they see in him. I don’t think there was a single person here yesterday that was praising him though.
#3 I didn’t support the rioting then or at any other time people have demonstrated in that manner. My personal belief is that using the power of the pocketbook is more of an effective form of protest in today’s society than any other means available. In this day and age, everything’s driven by money.
godless heathen
June 18th, 2012
9:43 am
Finn: Today’s vocabulary word is “facetious”. Look it up.
TaxPayer
June 18th, 2012
9:44 am
WWMD. What Would Mitt Do?
Bruno
June 18th, 2012
9:45 am
Do we need to take a poll as to when we think Romney will take his first stand on an issue?
I would say right after he’s elected. Until then, I expect him to try to be “all things to all people”, the same as every other candidate.
I would be much more afraid of him getting elected if he had no track record. Seems that Massachusetts fared ok under his watch. In fact, the Libs liked him pretty well. He definitely was no Scott Walker. Too bad…….
Brosephus™
June 18th, 2012
9:45 am
it serves as a flag that if we are even considering Illegal Aliens to serve in our military, recruitment must really suck…and read the history of Rome and their foreign/mercenary armies during the latter years of their fall…
And the Gibbon card has been played….
Joe Hussein Mama
June 18th, 2012
9:45 am
Famous Bill Kristol positions and quotes:
1993: “There is no health care crisis.”
1998: ‘We need to go to war with Iraq.’
2003: ‘We need to go to war with Iraq.’
2006: ‘We need to go to war with Iran.’
2008: ‘I sure do like me some Sarah Palin.’
2010: ‘We need to go to war and the Pentagon is full of wussies.’
2011; ‘Invasion? I’ve never advocated invading any country. Liberation, that’s what I’m about.’
Kristol and the rest of his PNAC buddies have been absolutely, spectacularly wrong over and over again about how and where and why to apply US military force. The fact that anyone would listen to them today — and that Jay’s actually pointing at them at all — is astounding to me.
godless heathen
June 18th, 2012
9:45 am
Brosephus: Have the women that R. King beat up forgiven him?
stands for decibels
June 18th, 2012
9:46 am
Out of curiosity, what does Rodney Kink represent to you??
Exactly what I posted originally. He is a tragic figure. But to elaborate:
He was a low-life nobody when he was pulled over and acted in a manner that caused police to over-react (to the point where, as then-President GHW Bush said, “it made me sick to my stomach”). He found himself thrust into an international story, and this utterly pedestrian sort of person saw an entire metro area devolve into violence.
A lot of people have joked about his line, “Can’t we all get along,” but my take-away hearing it uttered live on TV was one of deep sympathy for the guilt he must have been feeling, knowing that something he played a hand in–however passively–could have sparked such unrest. He sounded so helpless and perplexed at the time.
I can’t take any joy in piling on with all those who’ve said he’s had it easy; it seems obvious that King himself knew that he was fortunate to have been awarded millions of dollars in civil damages. You did read that quote I posted above, yes?
Is he worthy of some type of praise?? Did either of you support the King riots in 1992 in which Korean shopkeepers were targeted?
Really, Bruno? You really think I’d be supportive of violent riots that targeted innocent people?
I let a lot of stuff slide, but that one is going to be rather difficult.
Normal Free...Pro Human Rights Thug...And liking it!
June 18th, 2012
9:47 am
Brosephus™
June 18th, 2012
9:45 am
??????????????????
Joe Hussein Mama
June 18th, 2012
9:47 am
Brosephus — “#2 While I don’t think anybody was praising him, the fact that he clearly stated his forgiveness of those who beat him to near death is extremely noteworthy in my book.”
This.
There’s no way I would be able to forgive anyone who beat me like that, even if they were cops and thought they had a good reason.
kayaker 71
June 18th, 2012
9:47 am
Normal, 9:41,
There are more enlisted casualties than officers because there are more enlisted and officers. Adding stripes to enlisted rank is many times dependent on where you served and what you did, especially a combat tour. In Vietnam, the casualty rate for 2nd Lts was just about as high as point men on nighttime patrols. If you consider field grade officers being part of the mix, your stats are more accurate but up to captain in a combat unit, there is no mercy.
Paul
June 18th, 2012
9:48 am
kayaker 71
“So, all you armchair doves out there…… If sanctions fail to produce results and people dying in the streets from hunger do not produce a halt to nuclear weapons development in Iran, what is your answer to the problem?”
Seems quite a leap – disagree with Kristol saying the President should get an authorization for military action and Congress should grant it. This is, I think, why so many roll their eyes at what passes for the Right these days – if you aren’t for an explicit declaration of war actions you’re a dove.
As far as what should be done – seems you support Pres Obama in this, eh? He’s said all options are on the table, we won’t discount anything but we want to see sanctions work before we move to the next phase.
kayaker agreeing with Obama – who’da’ thunk?
Paul
June 18th, 2012
9:49 am
sfd
Gotta admit, you had me concerned for you for a minute -
Curious
June 18th, 2012
9:51 am
Help me understand the conservative outrage over the 50% that pay no Federal Income tax, but no comment on the 90+% that don’t serve in the military.
Any self respecting conservative should be insisting on universal military service.
Paul
June 18th, 2012
9:52 am
Normal
Yep – Truman and Eisenhower were pretty rare individuals.
In fact, I’d bet if someone posted parts of Eisenhower’s speech in which he warned of the military industrial complex, and said Krugman wrote the article, some of the usual suspects would denounce the writer as a liberal hack with no knowledge of the real world.
kayaker 71
June 18th, 2012
9:53 am
Paul, 9:48,
“We want to see sanctions work before we move to the next phase”. Bozo said that three years ago. My question still remains. What if sanctions and everything we try diplomatically fails? What is your solution? What is the “next phase”?
Paul
June 18th, 2012
9:54 am
finish the sentence!
kayaker – ‘Seems quite a leap – disagree with Kristol saying the President should get an authorization for military action and Congress should grant it’ makes one a dove.
Bruno
June 18th, 2012
9:56 am
You say you work with Officers and that may be the problem…if you work with officers alone.
I work with all of the troops. Nothing exclusive about it. And I don’t see any big difference in attitude from the top to the bottom. Young people volunteer because there are benefits to joining that they may not find elsewhere. While a few may join out of patriotism, the vast majority join due to the career benefits.
While I empathize with your “No More Wars” sentiment, I don’t see it as being possible in this world. Without a strong and active military presence world-wide, I think we would experience much greater loss of life due to constant attacks from our enemies. Though many theorize that our military strength/presence increases the number of our enemies, I don’t believe that for a minute. Human history proves that. War is driven by economics, period. And as long as there is greed, and the willingness for folks to take that which they didn’t earn themselves, there will be conflict.
Paul
June 18th, 2012
9:57 am
kayaker
Yes, he did. And there’s still big disagreement on how close they are.
Didn’t Pres Bush say the same thing, but for even longer?
As to the rest of your question (and I’m about to head to the gym but we can continue this) can we get something clarified first?
You’re a retired military senior NCO with several decades’ service, correct?
So are you now advocating the military and civilian authorities change long-standing American doctrine AGAINST preventive war?
Joe Hussein Mama
June 18th, 2012
9:58 am
K71 — “What if sanctions and everything we try diplomatically fails?”
I’d ask you to define success versus failure before I’d answer your question.
Sanctions and diplomatic pressure *worked* in Iraq, but we went in anyway. Remember that right before we went in, President Bush warned the UN weapons inspectors to get out.
NOT Saddam Hussein.
Saddam was a dipspit and a bully, but sanctions and pressure kept him in his box and kept him from developing WMDs. The reason he was playing the shell game and keeping everyone guessing is because he didn’t want his regional rivals knowing how weak he actually was. To be sure, he was a murderous SOB, but that never seemed to bother us before 2003 and it hasn’t seemed to bother us with respect to other regimes run by murderous SOBs.
So again — define success and failure first.
stands for decibels
June 18th, 2012
10:00 am
??????????????????
Normal, he’s calling the guy a monkey. Duh.
(or possibly referring to Edward Gibbon’s Decline and Fall of the Roamin’ Umpire.)
They BOTH suck
June 18th, 2012
10:02 am
Bruno
Do you work close to or out of Ft Stewert, Benning or neither one?
Finn McCool (The System Isn't Broken; It's Fixed ~ from an Occupy sign)
June 18th, 2012
10:03 am
Bring back the draft – but give the kids a choice as to how they will serve:
1) Military
2) Civil service (building bridges, repairing infrastructure, etc)
3) Social services (working with the elderly, mentally retarded, mentally ill, etc)
Paul
June 18th, 2012
10:03 am
kayaker 71
But offhand I’d say I now oppose military action over the acquisition of a nuke. Nothing has shown a strike will end the drive. Every analysis shows there are a lot of known unknowns – it could quickly spin out of control into a massive conventional war. Or an asymetrical war with severe impact on our homeland. It’s like Joe Hussein Mama asked: how do you defend success? Ending the drive for nukes? Delaying it? What?
Finn McCool (The System Isn't Broken; It's Fixed ~ from an Occupy sign)
June 18th, 2012
10:04 am
I thought it was the Romaine Empire.
they made great strides in farming lettuce…
Joe Hussein Mama
June 18th, 2012
10:05 am
TBS — “Do you work close to or out of Ft Stewert, Benning or neither one?”
He could very well work at a VA facility; there are many in GA.
http://www2.va.gov/directory/guide/state.asp?STATE=GA
I myself have received major surgery at the Decatur VAMC and I have no complaints whatsoever about the quality of medical care I received.
Paul
June 18th, 2012
10:05 am
Okay off on patrol.
Or patrolling a perimeter.
Or digging a foxhole.
Or fighting in a trench.
Or maybe sleeping in one.
Or whatever the phrase is.
Oh heck, I’m going to the gym.
kayaker 71
June 18th, 2012
10:06 am
Paul, 9:57,
I was not an NCO but retired as an O-6 with about 35 years of active duty. I am not advocating a change in our doctrine regarding protecting our interests and our citizens. That’s the president’s most important job as the Commanding Officer of our military forces. Diplomacy is our first and most important deterrent to war. Everyone with an ounce of common sense believes this. However, when backed into a corner with no other choice and the alternative being entirely unacceptable, this option must always be on the table.
JamVet
June 18th, 2012
10:06 am
It is to me infinitely more egregious that seven thousand millionaires paid nothing in federal income tax in 2011 than countless Americans living in borderline poverty – a couple with two children earning less than $26,400, for example – doing so.
And one day way off in the future, the grandchildren of today’s misguided neocons will agree…
They BOTH suck
June 18th, 2012
10:06 am
JHM
True: Didn’t even think of that
Thanks
Joe Hussein Mama
June 18th, 2012
10:07 am
F. McCool — “Bring back the draft – but give the kids a choice as to how they will serve:
1) Military
2) Civil service (building bridges, repairing infrastructure, etc)
3) Social services (working with the elderly, mentally retarded, mentally ill, etc)”
Don’t the Germans do something like this? There’s mandatory national service, but if you’re opposed to serving in the military for some reason, you can get a gig in an hospital or retirement home?
Williebkind
June 18th, 2012
10:07 am
Well you liberals did not want to enter WWII, thus waited while Hitler and Japan grew militarily. After that these two along with Italy deciced they can take on the world. Result-55 million people died. I think we should bring back the draft. Liberals will have to serve. It is realy cozy in the military now you can have sex of any kind now. You can be an ardent atheist too. I do believe we need more feet on the ground than the so called “thinkers’ as the liberals portray themselves. Hey bullets like educated people too.
They BOTH suck
June 18th, 2012
10:09 am
JHM
Could be at several other bases as well, for some reason that it might be at one of the larger ones.
They BOTH suck
June 18th, 2012
10:09 am
“thought………”
Doggone/GA
June 18th, 2012
10:09 am
“Well you liberals did not want to enter WWII
This liberal…for one…had no say in that decision. I wasn’t even a twinkle in my Daddy’s eye at the time.
Bruno
June 18th, 2012
10:10 am
While I don’t think anybody was praising him, the fact that he clearly stated his forgiveness of those who beat him to near death is extremely noteworthy in my book. When somebody actually praises him, then I think that person sees something worthy, and you should ask that person, if you get the chance, to see what they see in him. I don’t think there was a single person here yesterday that was praising him though.
Brosephus–I can respect what you’re saying about forgiveness, though I would respond by saying that there were a few mitigating factors here. For starters, $3.8 mil buys a lot of forgiveness. Also, at some level, I think Rodney had to know that he contributed to his own ass-whupping due to his own actions. If you recall, the two passengers in King’s car immediately complied with the officer’s directions, and were detained without incident. In contrast, King continued to fight with the officers even after he was tasered a few times. They all later testified that they thought he was on PCP.
If you know me like I think you should, I don’t support police over-action. And differently from most here, I don’t support prisoners being attacked by other prisoners while in jail, regardless of their crimes. All people should be treated with dignity at all times. Even POWs. If you have followed my posts, I don’t support torturing our enemies, regardless of what info we might hope to gain. The ends don’t justify the means in my book.
I didn’t support the rioting then or at any other time people have demonstrated in that manner.
In related news, I am with the citizens of NY in spirit with their latest protest. The bottom line is that there is a right way to protest, and numerous wrong ways:
http://news.yahoo.com/march-york-against-police-stop-frisk-tactics-012311038.html
kayaker 71
June 18th, 2012
10:11 am
Joe, 9:58,
Success….. Developing a viable nuclear weapon with an adequate delivery system to launch a nuclear attack from Iran. Also having the ability to sell a viable nuclear weapon to whomever you please.
Failure….. none of the above.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
June 18th, 2012
10:11 am
“Special Counsel” ? The LAST THING Holder wants !!
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – “A Senate committee chairman called on Sunday for a special counsel to investigate suspected leaks of classified information following allegations that the White House made the disclosures to boost President Barack Obama’s election chances.
Senator Joseph Lieberman, chairman of the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee, said U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder’s appointment on June 8 of two federal prosecutors to investigate the suspected leaks did not go far enough.
“We need a special counsel because a special counsel avoids any appearance of conflict of interest,” Lieberman said on “Fox News Sunday.”
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
June 18th, 2012
10:12 am
…………… or the president.
Finn McCool (The System Isn't Broken; It's Fixed ~ from an Occupy sign)
June 18th, 2012
10:12 am
JHM,
lots of countries have it. i know a guy who can’t return to Turkey cause they will meet him at the plane.
2-3 years of paid service right out of high school would boost the kid’s skills. Afterwards they can go to college or whatever.
Tundra Dude
June 18th, 2012
10:14 am
What if sanctions and everything we try diplomatically fails?
Problem is, if our (warmongering) news media reports that all diplomatic efforts failed,
how would we know that’s the truth…??
Bush Blocked Iran Nuke Deal
http://bit.ly/MeSSsO
Paul
June 18th, 2012
10:15 am
kayaker 71
“This option must always be on the table.”
Which is exactly what Pres Obama has consistently said. (and what we’ve seen in the last couple of months is the implementation, fulfilling the threat, of the most sever sanctions Iran’s encountered. Which may move the game forward. Bush never went that far, just to keep things in perspective).
But I’m sure you know that a strike on Iran, to stop a nonimminent threat based on what we think they might do at some point in the future, IS the definition of preventive war.
A doctrine to which this country has never subscribed.
Later -