Fathers and flags, long may they wave
I am reminded that today, June 14, is Flag Day. So, with Father’s Day right around the corner as well, I thought I’d publish the text of a commentary I did a few years ago on NPR about flags and dads to mark the Fourth of July. (The audio is available here, for those who prefer to listen):
“What we needed, Dad said, was a flagpole.
Not one of those flimsy ones that’s just stuck on the side of the house with their puny little American flag hanging from it. What we needed was a real flagpole, a flagpole tall enough to put a real American flag rippling in the breeze where it belonged, where you had to look up at the sky to see it. And we needed to put that new flagpole right there in the middle of the yard.
So one weekend in the summer of 1967, we brought out the shovels, the concrete, the gravel. Dad and a couple of his buddies dug a deep hole and in a few hours, they had planted themselves a tall flagpole. The next morning, Dad’s color guard — me and my little brother, Alan — reported for instructions:
Raise the flag every morning. Take it down every evening. Fold it in the officially prescribed manner, and never ever allow it to touch the ground. Dad, you see, was a sergeant in the Air Force and he made sure we did it right.
We Americans love our flag. We fly it everywhere from courthouses and churches to car dealerships. We pledge allegiance to it. We sing songs about it. And this year, like every year, politicians are trying to make it a crime to burn the flag.
Personally, I burned a flag or two in my time – not in protest, though. Dad would disown me if I have ever pulled anything like that. But, you see, Dad was a stickler about retiring flags that had faded or torn. And he taught us it would be the height of disrespect to just toss an old flag in the garbage.
Instead, when Old Glory grew too worn to stay in service, we would set it afire in a solemn little backyard ceremony, then dispose of the ashes. Even today, I’m offended every time I see a tattered flag still flying. That kind of desecration, done out of apathy and neglect, bugs me a lot more than flag burning as an act of protest. Flag burners understand its real power as a symbol. Whatever you think about their judgment, they care enough to express their opinion. And apathy and neglect are far greater threats to our freedom than passion.
A couple of years ago, I happened to be in the area of our old house and I drove by to see it. A lot had changed in the neighborhood. But if you can pardon the paraphrase, the visit gave proof to my eyes that our flagpole was still there. I can’t say I was surprised. Dad always built things that last.”
– Jay Bookman
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261 comments Add your comment
Janney
June 14th, 2012
7:42 am
Good commentary. Thanks, Jay
stands for decibels
June 14th, 2012
7:44 am
our flagpole was still there
Great story.
Practical question–as a Boy Scout, I was taught to never leave it out in the rain (and so I never leave mine out, unattended, if I think it might shower). How’d your father feel about raising the flag when rain was forecast? Or, was there always someone home to take it down if it did rain, so this was a moot point?
(Oh, and I get after my kid as well if she ever allows the flag to touch the ground.)
Granny Godzilla - Union Thugette
June 14th, 2012
7:45 am
Lovely remembrance Jay.
One of the greatest gifts you and I got…..a Dad who loved us always.
Jay
June 14th, 2012
7:48 am
As I recall — it was a long time ago now, sfd — we took down the flag when big storms were coming, but I doubt we did so in every rain event.
independent thinker
June 14th, 2012
7:49 am
Twenty five years ago a neighbor went in a nursing home and the son was eager to clean all her packrat trash out of the hose so he could quickly sell it. The whole front yard was piled high with trash he expected the city to pick up. Sitting in the middle of the mess was old glory-48stars. I salvaged it and she proudly is displayed on our front porch every holiday.One’s man’s trash is another man’s treasure.
Paul
June 14th, 2012
7:50 am
Wonderful remembrance and tribute, to both the flag and your father.
the cat
June 14th, 2012
7:50 am
Very nice Jay. Thank you.
Common Damn Sense isn't Very Common
June 14th, 2012
7:53 am
Jay
Being the son of an Army Air Corps sergeant myself and around your age I would say our fathers probably served together a time or two.
It is sad that many subdivisions have established a NO Flagpole rule.
Gale
June 14th, 2012
7:55 am
I remember how disgusted I was at the many filthy and tattered flags on cars a year after 9/11. People who were caught up in the patriotic fervor of post 9/11 who forgot what that flag was all about. It almost made me appreciate the magnetic flags that at least did not shred.
Jay
June 14th, 2012
7:56 am
Yes, Common, I find those rules disturbing as well. But I’m galled by a lot of the things that homeowner-association contracts require or forbid, and that people just seem to accept.
JamVet
June 14th, 2012
7:56 am
Great story, Jay.
Long may she wave…
stands for decibels
June 14th, 2012
7:56 am
I doubt we did so in every rain event.
Makes sense.
(Of course mine — “just stuck on the side of the house”, I’m afraid — gets rained on sometimes despite my precautions.)
Recon 0311 2533
June 14th, 2012
7:58 am
Jay, great commentary. Thanks for sharing, I had to wipe away a few tears.
Just saying..
June 14th, 2012
7:59 am
Really nice.
And I agree totally about tattered, faded flags; the flag always should look its best.
ByteMe - Political thug
June 14th, 2012
8:00 am
as a Boy Scout, I was taught to never leave it out in the rain
Speaking of corporate-sponsored apathy of the flag…
I was in a hotel in Augusta for Hugo in ‘89. Actually, it was more of a motel, with every door opening onto the parking lot and (or course) large glass windows in each room. Next door was a car dealership flying a HUGE flag. At night. During a strong hurricane. 2 am and it sounded like a train was rumbling through my room.
By morning, all that was left of the flag were 3 stripes, still blowing in the breeze.
stands for decibels
June 14th, 2012
8:01 am
homeowner-association contracts require or forbid, and that people just seem to accept.
To diverge just a hair–one of the more shocking things to me when I moved Down Here from the Northeast was that whole subdivision culture.
I’d always lived in neighborhoods that had been built house by house, (or apartment building by apartment building) that didn’t have those kinds of individual restrictions, where people could put up a flagpole or a cornfield or whatnot if they wanted to, and found it somewhat comical that a supposedly rugged-individualistic / proudly-conservative region allowed itself to be told what to do like that.
I mean, God forbid you don’t sod your front lawn Just So, and don’t be thinking about leveraging the full-sun coverage to grow something you can actually *eat*, where people can see it!
carlosgvv
June 14th, 2012
8:02 am
A faded, torn and tattered flag still stubbornly and proudly flying in the breeze is not a bad thing. It tells me our country may be battered and bruised but we are still here and we will NOT be defeated no matter how tough things get.
stands for decibels
June 14th, 2012
8:03 am
A faded, torn and tattered flag still stubbornly and proudly flying in the breeze is not a bad thing.
in a home of modest means, perhaps. In a car dealership where all the windows and products for sale are gleaming, not so much.
Thomas Heyward Jr.
June 14th, 2012
8:05 am
As long as the Union was faithful to her trust
Like friends and like brethren, kind were we, and just
But now, when Northern treachery attempts our rights to mar
We hoist on high the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.
.
Any thing else is for homo servilus.
.
Baaaaaaaaaaaa
JohnnyReb
June 14th, 2012
8:07 am
Thanks Jay, very good piece. Another example of the many things on which we agree. I’ll keep working on you about the others.
stands for decibels
June 14th, 2012
8:07 am
when Northern treachery attempts our rights to mar
Jeez, that didn’t take long.
Jay
June 14th, 2012
8:07 am
And for those who might be curious, CMSgt. Bookman and his lovely bride are hale and hearty and living in Florida (although at the moment they’re in Massachusetts visiting their latest great-grandchild, Savannah.)
Normal Free...Pro Human Rights Thug...And liking it!
June 14th, 2012
8:08 am
When I was in the Navy and my ship was in port, I always liked the sunset flag ceremony. Standing on the fantail, at attention and saluting the lowering of the ensign while the bos’un’s pipe trilled. Always moved me.
I also took part in a decommissioning ceremony one time where the Stars and Stripes was lowered from the flagstaff for the last time. That was special too. An old warrior retired from the fleet to be broken up after serving for so many faithful years and countless crews aboard her. It was sad, in a way…not many ships become museums, you know, but it is the way of things.
I say this because maybe on Flag Day, we should remember those Veterans who are on the beach needing help and trying to stay away from their own personal breaking yard. Too many Vets need help…our help.
Jay
June 14th, 2012
8:09 am
Thanks for that, Normal.
Common Damn Sense isn't Very Common
June 14th, 2012
8:13 am
Jay
You are truly blessed to have your dad still around especially this weekend, mine’s been gone for 30 years.
Soon it will be your time to be a great grandfather
Jay
June 14th, 2012
8:14 am
One step at a time, Common! I’m in no hurry for the granddad thing! (Although I’m sure I’ll enjoy it when the time comes).
Call It Like It Is
June 14th, 2012
8:15 am
I keep a flag on my mantle in a proper box for display. Bought it in Pearl Harbor, it flew over the Arizona. Love coming home every day and seeing it there. It reminds of the many fine men and woman that gave up everything so I may leave in freedom.
Common Damn Sense isn't Very Common
June 14th, 2012
8:16 am
Jay
I meant a fantastic Grandfather LOL.
I have 19 grands and it comes with blessings and pain at the same time
Jay
June 14th, 2012
8:23 am
Like I said, Common, I’m in no hurry for that. But I’ve lived long enough now to understand that one of the great blessings of time is that it allows you to see and experience Human Life from different perspectives. You’re a child, then a parent. A young cub in the business, then a veteran in the business. This weekend we’ll see our youngest graduate from college, and I can recall when that was me, straining at the leash to get my degree and get out into that world and see what I could do.
carlosgvv
June 14th, 2012
8:24 am
Normal- “too many Vets need help”
This is all too true. It’s just another entry in what is becomming an increasingly long list of national disgraces. Unfortunately, neither the Democrats or Republicans seem to care all that much. Don’t both parties realize that if the people increasingly realize that neither party cares for their concerns, a third and maybe even fourth party will emerge?
kayaker 71
June 14th, 2012
8:25 am
Nice piece, Bookman. Well said.
Gordon
June 14th, 2012
8:26 am
Nice work, Jay. Thank you.
Common Damn Sense isn't Very Common
June 14th, 2012
8:27 am
Congrats on your daughters graduation.
Now you can start saving for retirement (which I’m sure some of your ‘fans’ look forward to)
ty webb
June 14th, 2012
8:28 am
Well said, Jay.
GT
June 14th, 2012
8:29 am
Great read!
We are in an era of veterans from World Wars dying of old age. The last man turns the lights out stuff. Nature took care of what the Germans and Japanese couldn’t as proud good American soldiers die off.
Some of these men were only boys when they were sent to combat, 18 years old. They were rightfully so scared and all they had were each other. You see them now very old men, sitting in metal chairs at services, having to be helped to and from. The world has changed so much since they owned it. I’m sure some of that fear is back they felt in those wars. Now they don’t even have each other, it must be lonely. But they and we still have that flag, and I hope what it stands for. I pray that flag someday unites us all like those soldiers were years ago. We are all we got and on most days that and God is all we need.
GT
June 14th, 2012
8:33 am
Good stuff!
Dad and a lot of those guys are gone now. All we got in this country is each other and that flag. On a good day with God’s help that is all we need.
Normal Free...Pro Human Rights Thug...And liking it!
June 14th, 2012
8:34 am
Common Damn Sense isn’t Very Common
June 14th, 2012
8:16 am
I have 14 grand kids, and three great grand kids, and all are going to grow up to be “Social Liberals”…
Normal Free...Pro Human Rights Thug...And liking it!
June 14th, 2012
8:36 am
carlosgvv
June 14th, 2012
8:24 am
There are good Vet Help groups out ther and all it takes is a five dollar donation if everybody would do it.
the cat
June 14th, 2012
8:36 am
Another moving ceremony involving a flag is a military funeral. Just attended one not long ago where taps was played, the flag was removed from the coffin, folded solemmly and presented to the widow. Just incredible.
Jefferson
June 14th, 2012
8:38 am
Happy Flag day Americans !!!
the cat
June 14th, 2012
8:38 am
Speaking of vet help groups-Is anyone following Anderson Cooper’s reporting on the supposed charities for disabled veterans raking in millions and millions and not one dime going to actual veterans?
Common Damn Sense isn't Very Common
June 14th, 2012
8:38 am
Normal
Since you are 10 years older than I (I think anyway) LOL and having in that 10 years difference 7 of the grands coming to the age of parenthood I will probably have more
And Social Liberals which is a requirement, Fiscal Conservative though
Common Damn Sense isn't Very Common
June 14th, 2012
8:41 am
Cat
The veteran scams have been around foreve,r sad and someone needs to be issued a severe beating.
I still have the flag used on my dad’s casket, folded and displayed in it’s case. I proudly display it so that I can see it daily (if in town).
skipper
June 14th, 2012
8:45 am
Good article……..respect is respect no matter what camp you are in….
stands for decibels
June 14th, 2012
8:47 am
Regarding charity scams–It’s always a good idea to at least check out an independent resource to see what’s being reported.
here’s one such report for the Wounded Warrior Project (an outfit I support)
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=12842
I remember one outfit (can’t recall the name) that had solicited us by phone; I checked out their website, and it was fairly obvious just from scanning the site that they didn’t appear to offer anything
of value to actual vets. Sad.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
June 14th, 2012
8:49 am
“Cheers for the sailors that fought on the wave for it,
Cheers for the soldiers that always were brave for it,
Tears for the men that went down to the grave for it,
Here comes the flag!”
Arthur Macy, The Flag
carlosgvv
June 14th, 2012
9:00 am
stands – 8:03
Read “Old Ironsides” by Oliver Wendell Holmes.
ken
June 14th, 2012
9:01 am
Also, today is the Army’s birthday. 237 years old. I pledge allegiance………… God bless the USA
And God bless all VETS
Normal Free...Pro Human Rights Thug...And liking it!
June 14th, 2012
9:02 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC4Sg3vcD_o&feature=related
Jm
June 14th, 2012
9:03 am
Nice one.
The baseball stadium I’m near leaves the flag up all the time, at night unlit, and in rain. Makes me sick.
I’ve been half tempted to take it down for them, fold and deliver it back along with a long note.
stands for decibels
June 14th, 2012
9:05 am
carlos, why not post it in its entirety, since it’s on-topic — well, the 4th-to-the-last-line anyway.
–
Ay, tear her tattered ensign down!
Long has it waved on high,
And many an eye has danced to see
That banner in the sky;
Beneath it rung the battle shout,
And burst the cannon’s roar;–
The meteor of the ocean air
Shall sweep the clouds no more!
Her deck, once red with heroes’ blood,
Where knelt the vanquished foe,
When winds were hurrying o’er the flood
And waves were white below,
No more shall feel the victor’s tread,
Or know the conquered knee;–
The harpies of the shore shall pluck
The eagle of the sea!
Oh, better that her shattered hulk
Should sink beneath the wave;
Her thunders shook the mighty deep,
And there should be her grave;
Nail to the mast her holy flag,
Set every threadbare sail,
And give her to the God of storms,–
The lightning of the gale!
Cosby
June 14th, 2012
9:06 am
Cadoos to Thomas Haywood Jr on the Bonnie Blue coment. I served under the stars and stripes but my heart will always be with the stars and bars and Bonnie Blue’s- the last flags to fly resisting governemnt tyranny
markie mark
June 14th, 2012
9:07 am
Stands – as a native Atlantan, I am not sure the homeowner associations things are from here….as a kid in Decatur, I had never seen any until I was an adult. My wife, however, a Miami native (aka known as a suburb of the Bronx) is outraged that for the last 24 years I have refused to buy a house in a “controlled” neighborhood….
and Jay, as the grand of three (who just moved in for the summer with me) you will enjoy them a lot more than the kids….you are older, wiser, and calmer (however, I have noticed the increase of the consumption of adult beverages in the evening during adjustment time…….)
Paul
June 14th, 2012
9:08 am
Jay
Your father was a Chief? My respect for him was already pretty high, but wow. Only one percent of the entire enlisted force ever attains that rank.
You were pretty fortunate to be born where you were.
Road Scholar
June 14th, 2012
9:09 am
This is the 200th anniversary of the war of 1812, which included the bombardment of Fort McHenry in Baltimore and the writing of our Star Spangled Banner by Francis Scott Key. Good article ,Jay!
Don't Forget
June 14th, 2012
9:09 am
http://www.visitingdc.com/virginia/iwo-jima-picture.htm
Normal Free...Pro Human Rights Thug...And liking it!
June 14th, 2012
9:11 am
Speaking of Grand Kids…I have thought for a long time now (since my first one) that if God could have figured out how to give us our Grand Kids first, we would have been much better parents.
Jm
June 14th, 2012
9:13 am
Nowadays your average HOA would crucify you for putting a flag in your front yard
markie mark
June 14th, 2012
9:13 am
Amen, Normal
stands for decibels
June 14th, 2012
9:14 am
I am not sure the homeowner associations things are from here…
Well, they’re certainly not exclusive to the South. It’s more of a newer-development kind of thing. I’m sure there are plenty of similarly restrictive housing developments in the NYC tri-state region; it’s just that out of the housing stock to choose from, your odds are greater that you’ll wind up in a home that’s NOT part of this world, the closer to the city you get.
Call It Like It Is
June 14th, 2012
9:15 am
You know not to get off subject, but Road Scholar brought it up in reguards to the 200 anniversary of the War of 1812. Why do we love the British but hate the French? We fought the British in two wars, they burned down our capital. The French saved our bacon and gave us the Statue of Liberty. Rather strange if you think about it.
Bernie
June 14th, 2012
9:16 am
Jay, After reading your article I was touched and had a Rockwell moment. Those type of stories are ones that can eassily be found anywhere in Pennsylvania. However, in the deep south Flags have an altogether different feeling and meaning. Growing up here in Atlanta, the only Flag I remember seeing the most was one that brought out the most distatseful feelings of hate, fear and intimidation.
The Confederate Flag was and still is one of most hateful symbols of the American landscape. You can still see it flying around the metro area but nowhere near the numbers it use to be. I wished we all could have shared in such an experience as you. However, in the South the American Flag is not always as cherished as it should be. Even today many of the South’s state capitals still fly this symbol of Hate proudly. In time, it will eventually change and they will and can be only found in Musems for historical purposes as where they should be. However, this change will come not fast enough for me and many who know the real significance of flying such a symbol of Hate.
stands for decibels
June 14th, 2012
9:22 am
Why do we love the British but hate the French?
I blame Matt Groening.
gdrla
June 14th, 2012
9:25 am
Bernie – the Confederate Flag has unfortunately been coopted as a symbol of Hate by folks who DO NOT understand its heritage – the views of the segregationist southern legislatures and hate groups do not speak for me & numerous other Southerners who have a different perspective on that symbol. As recently as 25 years ago it was still a symbol of regional pride – it was a symbol of those who were willing to fight & die for their beliefs – that belief that this was a Voluntary union and that some might wish to withdraw from it. The common perception that the War Between the States was over Slavery is another revisionist interpolation of the actual history – but understandable since those who win the wars write the history. That flag – the Stars & Bars – the Confederate Battle Flag – to me means that my Southern ancestors were willing to fight & die for their beliefs – even when they had no weapons, clothing, or food to fight with. I fly mine with pride – right below my Stars & Stripes – it is a symbol of my heritage & honorable ancestors – NOT a symbol of Hate. Too bad that folks cannot sit down to exchange/share viewpoints because all is sometimes not necessarily as it seems.
Aquagirl
June 14th, 2012
9:28 am
Nowadays your average HOA would crucify you for putting a flag in your front yard
In defense of all the HOA’s that end up in the news, flagpoles often violate safety clauses or other junk that was originally intended to stop people from building ski jumps on their roofs or whatever. One a-hole neighbor complains and the HOA must take action, it’s a legal thing. Then some bored reporter jumps in and the fecal matter hits the fan.
Normal Free...Pro Human Rights Thug...And liking it!
June 14th, 2012
9:29 am
Off topic, but capitalism at its best…
http://www.papercutsinc.com/
ty webb
June 14th, 2012
9:31 am
the “Stars and Bars” and the Confederate Battle flag are not the same…the “stars and bars” refers to the first official flag of the confederacy, and is the one that GA’s most recent flag most resembles. the confederate battle flag is often incorrectly referred to as “the star and bars”.
Paul
June 14th, 2012
9:34 am
“that belief that this was a Voluntary union and that some might wish to withdraw from it.”
People are free to believe anything they wish. That Pres Obama wasn’t born in America. That the Trilateral Commission runs the government. That the moon walk was faked. That the income tax is unconstitutional and you don’t have to pay.
Same in this case. Texas v White settled that 150 years ago.
But people are still free to believe whatever they want to believe.
Joe Hussein Mama
June 14th, 2012
9:34 am
I. Thinker — “Sitting in the middle of the mess was old glory-48stars.”
We’ve got one too.
She’s threadbare and dirty (my wife’s grandfather brought it back from WWII), but she stays properly folded and in a box with my Army decorations.
Joe Hussein Mama
June 14th, 2012
9:38 am
T. Cat — “Speaking of vet help groups-Is anyone following Anderson Cooper’s reporting on the supposed charities for disabled veterans raking in millions and millions and not one dime going to actual veterans?”
I haven’t, but I always verify a charity’s status before donating to them. There are several veteran-oriented charities that I contribute to on a monthly basis.
Bernie
June 14th, 2012
9:38 am
Gdrla 9:25, Unfortunately it was used and still is used as a symbol of defiance and hate. The confederacy was a determined insurgency that fought for the destruction of America. had the south won we would not be flying the Stars and Bars but the Confederate Flag. I agree with your right to fly the Confederate Flag when where ever you like. However my personal opinion is that it SHOULD NOT be flown alongside,under or on the same pole as the Stars and Stripes! No Flag should have that honor, especially one HELL bent on the destruction of America and its people.
the cat
June 14th, 2012
9:40 am
JHM-I verify charities’ status as well but apparently there are lots of good intention folks that do not to the tune of 56 MILLION just last year donated to a charity with not one dime going to veterans.
Bernie
June 14th, 2012
9:40 am
I stand corrected…Stars and Stripes…Long may she wave.
Erwin's cat
June 14th, 2012
9:41 am
my neighbor is a lot like you Dad Jay…put a 30ft flag pole in the front yard and keeps it lit up at night…a Korean War Vet…The HOA had issues with the flag pole, but didn’t realize who they were dealing with…the flag still flies unapologetic…
kayaker 71
June 14th, 2012
9:42 am
I have framed on one wall of my office a poster entitled Tattered Banners published by the Alabama Dept of Archives and History. It depicts the 25 Confederate Battle flags of 25 Alabama units and the day of the flag’s capture and where it was taken. One of the most interesting of the lot is the flag of the 28th Alabama infantry. It is a white flag with a sunburst as it’s main character. It was made from the wedding dress of the unit’s commanding officer and was captured at Orchard Knob, the Battle of Chattanooga on November 23, 1863.
USinUK - pro-gay-marriage thug and former Girl Scout
June 14th, 2012
9:46 am
what a great commentary – thanks, Jay!
that’s the one thing I really hate about being an ocean away – I miss seeing my dad and hanging out with him.
God love him, he’s hard of hearing, so phone calls are more an exercise in patience and a journey through non-sequitors than actual communication … Me: “So how was (my sister’s) party?” … Dad: “Yeah, I’m going to go to breakfast” … Me: “No, dad, how was the PARTY?” … Dad: “Oh, yeah, it’s getting kind of hot here, but I’m still not turning on the air conditioner, yet.” … thank god for e-mail …
USinUK - pro-gay-marriage thug and former Girl Scout
June 14th, 2012
9:48 am
“Why do we love the British but hate the French?”
if you ask the Brits, they don’t think Americans love them – they wonder why the bad guy in every movie is British … (I keep telling them it’s the accent that makes them sound smarter and more devious)
Joe Hussein Mama
June 14th, 2012
9:48 am
T. Cat — “apparently there are lots of good intention folks that do not to the tune of 56 MILLION just last year donated to a charity with not one dime going to veterans.”
Holy crap.
People that do that kind of thing pizz me the hell off. There are plenty of veterans who need help, and plenty of Americans willing to pitch in to help. But when some jackwagon decides to dress his scam up as a veteran to scam people out of their money (and also to scam REAL veterans’ charities out of contributions they should have gotten), I tell you, it’s enough to make me wish there really was a hell.
Here are the veteran-oriented charities I regularly contribute to:
Pat Tillman Foundation
Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America
Wounded Warrior Project
National Coalition For Homeless Veterans
stands for decibels
June 14th, 2012
9:48 am
About the CSA Battle Flag–Josef got me thinking about this yesterday, figured I would post a link to Howard Dean’s somewhat infamous speech from 2003.
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dnc0203/dean022103spt.html
I post this not to endorse his framing of “Repubs bad Dems good” (although longtime listeners know those would reflect my personal leamings) but rather to ask folks, as Josef had done, to see a bigger picture, beyond the obvious symbolism, as Dean was in his somewhat inartful way, trying to do.
Here’s the passage for which he drew so much flack, even though, apparently, the audience included many African-Americans who cheered what he had said. Emphasis mine.
———–
Let me tell you something else I’m going to do.
One of the things I thought was terrific about Bill Clinton was that when he became president in 1992 he said that his Cabinet would look like the rest of America. And he did it; and he did it. [applause].
I want all of our institutions of higher learning–our law schools, our medical schools, our best universities–to look like the rest of America, and I thought [applause], I thought that one of the most dispicable moments of this president’s administration was three weeks ago when on national primetime television he used the word quota seven times. The University of Michigan does not now have quotas; it has never had quotas. Quotas is a race-loaded word, designed to appeal to people’s fears of losing their jobs. [cheers, applause].
I intend to talk about race during this election in the South, because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I’m going to bring us together, because you know what, you know what? White folks in the South who drive pick ups with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us and not them because their kids don’t have health insurance and their kids need better schools too. [cheers, applause].
Aquagirl
June 14th, 2012
9:49 am
It was made from the wedding dress of the unit’s commanding officer
I had no idea some of those Confederate units were so progressive.
Mighty Righty
June 14th, 2012
9:49 am
Thanks Jay, apporpriate and moving. Brings back memories. The elementary school I attended chose three students each week to raise and lower our flags. It was an honor to be part of that ceremony, particularly for me as my brother was then in the Pacific defending our nation. We as with many families at that time had a blue star hanging in our window at home honoring my brother and a flag was mounted on our house. My job at home was to place that flag before I went to school
and take it down each evening. Thanks again Jay.
Don't Forget
June 14th, 2012
9:49 am
It was made from the wedding dress of the unit’s commanding officer
I assume you meant his wife’s dress.
Bernie
June 14th, 2012
9:51 am
Anytime I see the flying of the Confederate Flag in front of a businesses,services or residences, I cringe and remember what this flag truly means and not from any place of historical pride or heritage. I do not patronize those businesses and encourage everyone I know and business associates to avoid such places, for they are places that do not truly believe in what this country stands for.
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
9:52 am
That was a great piece Jay! I’m sure yourliberal brothers won’t care to much for it though….
Paul
June 14th, 2012
9:53 am
kayaker 71
That post well illustrates the concept of “history and heritage” as opposed to that…. stuff…. so many post.
I take it units were free to create their own flags back then. Interesting.
Erwin's cat
June 14th, 2012
9:53 am
Bernie…some would argue with your definition as to the “true” meaning of the confederate flag
Normal Free...Pro Human Rights Thug...And liking it!
June 14th, 2012
9:54 am
Don’t Forget
June 14th, 2012
9:49 am
Unless his name was Cleburne…
http://www.davidmixner.com/2011/07/lgbt-history-confederate-major-general-patrick-cleburne.html
stands for decibels
June 14th, 2012
9:57 am
I’m sure yourliberal brothers won’t care to much for it though….
http://www.rif.org/
josef
June 14th, 2012
9:57 am
Excellent little commentary, IMAM, a tip of the hat to you. I trust those who like to sling mud at your loyalties to the republic will take note and remember this.
Today and here are probably not the best time and best place to be bringing up the Late Misunderstanding, so I will refrain from passing my own comments as a not completely reconstructed citizen of the unified republic.
As Unmentionable, like Jay, a military brat says, “it is the flag of my nation and a symbol of who we are, good and bad. Of course there are those times when I look at it, I am reminded of what it means, historically, to be an Indian in America. But I am also reminded that I am an American and that is my flag, too.”
So, on a day such as today, let’s contemplate, not our failures as a nation, but our triumphs.
Normal Free...Pro Human Rights Thug...And liking it!
June 14th, 2012
9:57 am
Paul,
Throughout history Regimental flags were the king of the chess board. A captured flag was the worst humiliation a unit could suffer. They probably carried more emotional weight than the flag of their nation.
Joe Hussein Mama
June 14th, 2012
9:57 am
Joseph — ” I’m sure yourliberal brothers won’t care to much for it though….”
You’re clearly unaware that several of Jay’s liberal regulars on this board are veterans.
Newtiepewtie
June 14th, 2012
9:57 am
When the Iraq War Dead started being publicized in the early 2000’s, my Dad, a WW II Veteran, lowered his flag to half-mast to mourn our losses…Since we continued to have losses for the next 7 or 8 years, he continued to keep his flag at half-mast until he passed away at 86 years old. He was a Veteran, but thought that War, in general, was STUPID and a HUGE WASTE.
ByteMe - Political thug
June 14th, 2012
9:58 am
sfd @ 9:57:
ByteMe - Political thug
June 14th, 2012
10:00 am
You’re clearly unaware that several of Jay’s liberal regulars on this board are veterans.
You’re confusing him with someone who cares about “facts” and “reality”.
Newtiepewtie
June 14th, 2012
10:00 am
Flying a tattered flag is appropriate for our nation…it shows the reality of how torn our American Civil Life and Politics have become..
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
10:01 am
Joe Hussein Mama:
I doubt many are. Liberals are certainly not as patriotic as Conservative Americans. I’m personally heading up a flag retirement ceremony tonight and I guarantee you there won’t be any liberals there…
Bernie
June 14th, 2012
10:01 am
Erwin’s Cat, I agree, everyone is entitled to their opinion but not the Facts. One fact is The South lost and losers do not get the right to fly the flag on the same pole as the Victor! The Confederate Flag should have been retired and placed in a Museum for historical reflection and remembrance purposes. Today, I still find it offensive to my very core, whenever I see it along side or near the Stars and Stripes.
They BOTH suck
June 14th, 2012
10:01 am
josef
Good morning
“So, on a day such as today, let’s contemplate, not our failures as a nation, but our triumphs.”
That was awesome
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
10:02 am
Joe Hussein Mama:
By the way… On a blog you can say your many things. That certainly don’t mean there true….
USinUK - pro-gay-marriage thug and former Girl Scout
June 14th, 2012
10:02 am
“You’re clearly unaware that several of Jay’s liberal regulars on this board are veterans.”
or the children / neice / friends with those who are …
a small mind is a terrible thing …
JamVet
June 14th, 2012
10:04 am
Joseph, you are a sad, strange little man. And you have my pity (hat tip Buzz Lightyear)…
They BOTH suck
June 14th, 2012
10:06 am
“The South lost and losers do not get the right to fly the flag on the same pole as the Victor! ”
While not a fan of the “Confederate Flag”, yes those who fly it have that RIGHT. You certainly have your right to your opinion in terms of what it means to you. Again I am not a fan, however those individuals do have the RIGHT to fly it.
ByteMe - Political thug
June 14th, 2012
10:06 am
Liberals are certainly not as patriotic as Conservative Americans.
Joseph just loves to wallow in his own “stupid”.
Georgia on my mind...
June 14th, 2012
10:06 am
Off topic/subject but…
Romney Plan for Pre-Existing Conditions Draws Dem Fire
Mitt Romney this week has been highlighting his opposition to Obamacare, telling voters and donors of his eagerness to see the U.S. Supreme Court strike the law down and a willingness to do the deed from the White House if the court does not.
“You know, regardless of what they do, it’s going to be up to the next president to either repeal and replace Obamacare or to replace Obamacare,” Romney told a crowd in Orlando on Tuesday.
But it’s Romney’s unabashed public opposition to one of the law’s most popular provisions – a ban on health insurance company discrimination against people with pre-existing conditions – that is once again stirring the political pot.
The former governor said this week, reiterating a position he’s articulated in the past, that only Americans who have had constant, uninterrupted insurance coverage should be guaranteed access to a health plan, regardless of any pre-existing conditions.
http://news.yahoo.com/romney-plan-pre-existing-conditions-draws-dem-fire-100132950–abc-news-politics.html
Normal Free...Pro Human Rights Thug...And liking it!
June 14th, 2012
10:07 am
JamVet
June 14th, 2012
10:04 am
Jam,
You said it better that I could…and more politely too.
USinUK - pro-gay-marriage thug and former Girl Scout
June 14th, 2012
10:07 am
“Joseph just loves to wallow in his own “stupid”.”
good lord, he should be all pruny from it by now …
ByteMe - Political thug
June 14th, 2012
10:08 am
good lord, he should be all pruny from it by now …
the word you seek is “fetid”.
carlosgvv
June 14th, 2012
10:09 am
The Confederate Flag is a part of our history. Ignoring it and just hoping it will go away robs todays children with a part of our shared past. This is a terrible mindset to have.
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
10:10 am
JamVet:
LOL…. I knew I could get you to spew a little foam this morning…..
Brosephus™
June 14th, 2012
10:12 am
Jay
Excellent post. I don’t have a flag flying at home, but I keep a flag pin on my uniform at work to remind me of where I’m from and how I got here.
——————————
dB @ 9:57
Sometimes, I think ignoring stuff is the best policy.
Doggone/GA
June 14th, 2012
10:13 am
“Sometimes, I think ignoring stuff is the best policy”
Especially something that is clearly intended to be nothing but provocation.
Jm
June 14th, 2012
10:13 am
Savannah is a great name for a child. But I’m biased.
They BOTH suck
June 14th, 2012
10:14 am
Bro
I think you are correct. Trolls usually don’t stay too long if ignored
ByteMe - Political thug
June 14th, 2012
10:14 am
LOL…. I knew I could get you to spew a little foam this morning…..
From this statement we can conclude that Joseph is either:
A. A true believer who hates everyone who doesn’t believe what he believes, or
B. An attention-starved 8-year-old looking to get a response from the adults in the room.
Hey, Joseph, you think if we polled everyone here, the winning answer would be “C. All of the Above”?
Don't Forget
June 14th, 2012
10:15 am
The Confederate flag has different meanings to different people. To ignore those who view it differently than you do is narrow minded. And that applies to both sides. But I won’t display it because of those who are intimidated by it and I don’t want to be thought of as someone who hates. As Lewis Grizzard said (paraphrased), the confederate flag does represent the heritage of the south but the good people of the south allowed it to be used as a symbol of hate and did not speak up when that happened. And so it now bears that stain.
JamVet
June 14th, 2012
10:16 am
Normal, it is my extensive experience that attention seeking trolls like him are the very worst types to judge others patriotism.
And given the fetid version of his religion, that they go hand in hand…
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
10:17 am
I got a feeling come November they’ll be a lot of this happening….
“Crying Man” calls talk show: http://youtu.be/v-IXwrP_LSk via @youtube
Normal Free...Pro Human Rights Thug...And liking it!
June 14th, 2012
10:17 am
ByteMe – Political thug
June 14th, 2012
10:14 am
Put me down for,
D. Don’t care.
Bernie
June 14th, 2012
10:19 am
carlosgvv @ 10:09 am – Maybe we should FLY the BRITISH FLAG too. it is also a part of our History as well, if one accepts your statement as being a true Patriot.
Jm
June 14th, 2012
10:20 am
Aquagirl 9:28
True. Flagpoles have been documented assaulting and ravaging both children and adults all across the country.
Whatever
ByteMe - Political thug
June 14th, 2012
10:20 am
D.Don’t care.
Vote recorded
ByteMe - Political thug
June 14th, 2012
10:21 am
Flagpoles have been documented assaulting and ravaging both children and adults all across the country.
That’s what happens when you lick it in 20 degree weather.
USinUK - pro-gay-marriage thug and former Girl Scout
June 14th, 2012
10:21 am
ByteMe – given the total lack of knowledge about how the legislative process works that was displayed yesterday, I’m given to all of the above with an emphasis on underage brat …
Brosephus™
June 14th, 2012
10:21 am
Especially something that is clearly intended to be nothing but provocation.
I’m not sold that there is enough intellect there even to divine such intentions.
—————————-
They BOTH
Why lower yourself to that level of intellect? Anybody with self respect would simply step over it and keep on truckin’.
USinUK - pro-gay-marriage thug and former Girl Scout
June 14th, 2012
10:22 am
Byte – 10:21 – but it was a triple-dog dare!
ByteMe - Political thug
June 14th, 2012
10:23 am
it was a triple-dog dare!
How else to get them to do it?
You know the last sentence a redneck ever says, right?
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
10:23 am
Check out these left wing loons… The greatest play in baseball history…. Thank you Rick Monday for being a patriot….
http://youtu.be/vZzeEaBHUBM
Aquagirl
June 14th, 2012
10:23 am
That’s what happens when you lick it in 20 degree weather.
See Jm? Think of the children.
Doggone/GA
June 14th, 2012
10:23 am
“Maybe we should FLY the BRITISH FLAG too. it is also a part of our History as well”
And the Spanish, French, Russian and Mexican flags
Granny Godzilla - Union Thugette
June 14th, 2012
10:23 am
Joesph
“Liberals are certainly not as patriotic as Conservative Americans”
Nope.
and what an icredibly STUPID thing even for you to say.
consider the source
ByteMe - Political thug
June 14th, 2012
10:23 am
I’m given to all of the above
Vote recorded
Don't Forget
June 14th, 2012
10:23 am
I think you are correct. Trolls usually don’t stay too long if ignored
Nah, those attention seeking wharfs don’t give up that easily. They simply change their names over and over. It’s sociopathic in a way.
Joe Hussein Mama
June 14th, 2012
10:24 am
Joseph — “I doubt many are.”
Then you’d be mistaken.
“Liberals are certainly not as patriotic as Conservative Americans.”
And now you’re zero-for-two.
“I’m personally heading up a flag retirement ceremony tonight and I guarantee you there won’t be any liberals there…”
Hey, Joseph — on a blog, you can say many things. But that certainly doesn’t make those things true.
Bernie
June 14th, 2012
10:26 am
If the Confederate Flag was a brand of toilet paper, I would be its most loyal customer, three times a day!
Don't Forget
June 14th, 2012
10:26 am
I agree with Josef that the flag has had different meanings to different people but to me the most important is that it flies over the oldest modern democracy and it symbolizes my home.
Lord Help Us
June 14th, 2012
10:26 am
‘You know the last sentence a redneck ever says, right?’
Hey Ya’ll…Watch this!!!
(seen it happen…)
They BOTH suck
June 14th, 2012
10:26 am
DF
You could be right, however I think it is best to keep moving past their posts. It is worth a try. Any interaction surely fuels the fire. I know because I fell into the trap yesterday
Joe Hussein Mama
June 14th, 2012
10:26 am
JamVet — “Normal, it is my extensive experience that attention seeking trolls like him are the very worst types to judge others patriotism.”
Agreed. I may not agree with board regulars like 0311 and USMC, but I’ve never questioned their patriotism or dissed their service.
Jefferson
June 14th, 2012
10:28 am
The GA flag is the confederate flag.
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
10:28 am
ByteMe – Political thug:
I’m just proving the knee jerk liberal reaction… Instead of having a conversation about reality and the crumbling of our democracy under demoncrat rule you would rather personally insult me… Just the fact that I know you and your ilk cringe at the very thought that I will post on this blog makes me happy. It gives me complete joy to read the ridiculous with the liberal sheep that follow Jay… LOL..
Don't Forget
June 14th, 2012
10:29 am
TBS, I generally do.
Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")
June 14th, 2012
10:30 am
A really nice blog today from Jay. I should have read it and moved on before reading the comment section.
josef
June 14th, 2012
10:30 am
JOSEPH
You never answered my question from last night, what’s on your summer reading list?
ByteMe - Political thug
June 14th, 2012
10:30 am
(seen it happen…)
Uh huh. I saw it more when I was younger, so I’m hoping it’s me that has matured.
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
10:31 am
Joe Hussein Mama:
I would tell you exactly where it is but you and your ilk may come protest….
Joe Hussein Mama
June 14th, 2012
10:32 am
FWIW, I thought we should have gone back to the pre-1956 flag.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_State_of_Georgia_(1920-1956).svg
IMO, it’s a simple, elegant design, and according to some reading I’ve done, it was based on a design drawn up by a GA veteran of the Civil War.
ByteMe - Political thug
June 14th, 2012
10:32 am
Just the fact that I know you
And right there we have the disconnect moment….
ByteMe - Political thug
June 14th, 2012
10:32 am
you and your ilk
Got ilk?
Aquagirl
June 14th, 2012
10:33 am
Just the fact that I know you and your ilk cringe at the very thought that I will post on this blog makes me happy. It gives me complete joy to read the ridiculous with the liberal sheep that follow Jay… LOL..
Look, folks: there are trolls and then there are people who actually cross the line into what might be serious mental issues. While I don’t shy away from barbed exchanges on these blogs, I avoid the latter category of posters. It’s just sad.
josef
June 14th, 2012
10:33 am
STEVE
@ 10:30
I did and am glad I did. The comments? Oh, they’re just folks being folks…in a peculiar sort of way, honoring the flag and what it stands for, unfettered freedom of thought, opinion and the right to express it…
Joe Hussein Mama
June 14th, 2012
10:34 am
Joseph — “I would tell you exactly where it is but you and your ilk may come protest….”
I’d rather protest at your house, because you’re being kind of a jerk.
FWIW, I’ve *participated* in flag retirement ceremonies before, and I know what’s involved. But if you want to be a jackazz and inject politics into the thread, go right ahead. You’re just solidifying blog opinion about you and the kind of person you are.
Don't Forget
June 14th, 2012
10:34 am
josef
June 14th, 2012
10:30 am
JOSEPH
You never answered my question from last night, what’s on your summer reading list?
Probably something from the thirties in Germany. That’s how I view those who choose to blame one group of people for all a nation’s problems. There, I said it.
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
10:34 am
josef:
You never answered my question from last night, what’s on your summer reading list?
Right now I’m about to start reading David Limbaugh’s book “Crimes Against Liberty”..
Normal Free...Pro Human Rights Thug...And liking it!
June 14th, 2012
10:34 am
Jefferson
June 14th, 2012
10:28 am
Yes, except for the emblem, it is the flag of Georgia during the Confederacy.
The Stars and Bars were mainly a battle flag and its representation was put on the Southern State flags back in the ’50’s during the integration movement by the Federals.
Joe Hussein Mama
June 14th, 2012
10:35 am
Joseph — “I’m just proving the knee jerk liberal reaction… Instead of having a conversation about reality and the crumbling of our democracy under demoncrat rule you would rather personally insult me…”
We were having a conversation about it being Flag Day today before you came in here and sharted all over the thread.
Lord Help Us
June 14th, 2012
10:36 am
Joseph reminds me of a freak show named Andy that used to post here…
Full of hate, certainty and absolutes all twisted around willful ignorance and misinformation…a volatile mix…
the cat
June 14th, 2012
10:36 am
I’m going with aquagirl’s assessment.
Jefferson
June 14th, 2012
10:37 am
George Purdue, flag for votes.
josef
June 14th, 2012
10:38 am
JOSEPH
Who’s your favorite writer of fiction?
Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")
June 14th, 2012
10:38 am
josef – “I did and am glad I did. The comments? Oh, they’re just folks being folks…in a peculiar sort of way, honoring the flag and what it stands for, unfettered freedom of thought, opinion and the right to express it…”
I guess I don’t find the personal poop slinging as a tribute to the flag.
Your mileage may vary.
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
10:39 am
Aquagirl:
I understand completely… Just look at all the personal attacks leveled against me! When this is your only resort it does have the look of a serious mental issue. When I try and have a serious political dialog with folks on this blog I’m called stupid, crazy, raciest, hate monger…. I could go on and on… Its truly sad the liberal mindset….
Jm
June 14th, 2012
10:40 am
Aguagirl/byteme
Omg. (brocephus head slap) +
barking frog
June 14th, 2012
10:41 am
Wave the flag, be a patriot
of the first order but when
the bullets fly please don’t
run for the border.
stands for decibels
June 14th, 2012
10:41 am
>> Liberals are certainly not as patriotic as Conservative Americans.
> Joseph just loves to wallow in his own “stupid”.
Just for the heck of it, and since this thread is about common bonds I’m going to try to put this diplomatically, and directly, to Joseph. And yes, I’ve read the admonitions to ignore the man (if he is a grown man, I’m assuming he is.) Here goes.
Joseph, could you at least consider the possibility that what you experience in your circle of acquaintances is not necessarily representative of the entire nation? Could you think about how birds of a feather tend to small-flock together, and that there might be flag retirement ceremonies across the country where self-identifying liberals actually outnumber conservatives?
And if what you’re intimating at its core is true—that more self-identifying conservatives than liberals are in our armed forces—did you ever think about any historical reasons for that, beyond some character defect or cowardice in the former group?
Did it ever occur that America’s armed forces themselves haven’t always welcomed all Americans as equals in their ranks? Have you forgotten the trials and tribulations to racially integrate the forces in the middle of the last century, to say nothing of the decades-long debate over gays serving openly? Many want to serve their country; many, undoubtedly, have found it difficult to square that with an organization that openly discriminated in a way that was literally illegal in some states of this nation.
I don’t expect you to do a 180 on your preconceived notions about liberal patriotism; I won’t even be surprised if you snap back by informing me that “liberal patriotism” is an oxymoron. I’ve heard it all, plenty of times already, so go ahead if that is your wont.
I just ask that you consider, on this Flag Day, re-evaluating what sounds to me like an unexamined slice of your own life.
Thomas Heyward Jr.
June 14th, 2012
10:41 am
When I think of Obama/Bush’s Keeeeel list …I run that ole American flag up and look………to see who salutes.
.
No one ever does..it seems.
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GBoxdee52A
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
10:41 am
josef:
Steven King… I’ve probably read a half dozen or so of his books but really don’t get a chance to read but a few books a year now. Mostly political books. Bill O’Reilly is defiantly my favorite author…Kids take up a lot of time… LOL…
josef
June 14th, 2012
10:41 am
STEVE
That’s why I said, “in a peculiar sort of way…”
stands for decibels
June 14th, 2012
10:43 am
beyond some character defect or cowardice in the former group?
my bad, former group in that sentence would mean “conservatives” and I was speaking to preconceived notions about liberals, of course.
getalie
June 14th, 2012
10:43 am
Love it or leave it cons.
Lord Help Us
June 14th, 2012
10:43 am
‘Bill O’Reilly is defiantly my favorite author’
So many ways to laugh at this…
ByteMe - Political thug
June 14th, 2012
10:44 am
josef: have you read Lee Child’s books?
Joe Hussein Mama
June 14th, 2012
10:44 am
Joseph — “Just look at all the personal attacks leveled against me!”
Just look at your first post in this thread.
“I’m sure yourliberal brothers won’t care to much for it though….”
You’ve done nothing but insult and bait others since you started posting to this thread. If you can’t be a polite guest, then maybe you should take a hike.
josef
June 14th, 2012
10:44 am
JOSEPH
i think King is a good writer, I just don’t care much for his motif…a matter of personal taste. Kids take up your time…your own? Kids or grandkids? How many?
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
10:45 am
stands for decibels:
Joseph, could you at least consider the possibility that what you experience in your circle of acquaintances is not necessarily representative of the entire nation?
Its certainly representative of the great state of Georgia….
And if what you’re intimating at its core is true—that more self-identifying conservatives than liberals are in our armed forces—did you ever think about any historical reasons for that, beyond some character defect or cowardice in the former group?
I think you know there’s more Conservatives than liberals in the armed forces. I’ve honestly never met a vet that wasn’t Conservative. Remember libs make up only 20% of the electorate according to recent pools…
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
10:46 am
Joe Hussein Mama:
I had no idea liberal was a bad word…..
barking frog
June 14th, 2012
10:46 am
getalie ?
the cat
June 14th, 2012
10:47 am
stands-you are nicer than I am.
I imagine joseph is taking his kid to boy scouts tonight for a flag retirement ceremony. You know-the homophobic boy scouts?? the homophobic boy scouts that are attempting to turn a generation into narrow minded jerks? the homophobic boy scouts that historically hold their little butt slap meetings in churches? I would imagine there will be a lot of church going cons at that ceremony this evening but I sure as heck hope there are some liberals there as well questioning the hate.
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
10:47 am
Looking like another bad month for jobs….
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/jobless-claims-rise-131100810.html
ByteMe - Political thug
June 14th, 2012
10:48 am
that more self-identifying conservatives than liberals are in our armed forces—did you ever think about any historical reasons for that, beyond some character defect or cowardice in the former group?
The “stupid” just keeps on flowing.
Jm
June 14th, 2012
10:48 am
Joseph there are no serious discussions on this blog, or very rarely
stands for decibels
June 14th, 2012
10:49 am
You know-the homophobic boy scouts?
sigh. Yeah. I loved being a Scout. I hate what they’re slowly turning into, apparently.
barking frog
June 14th, 2012
10:50 am
Joseph is a snark.
Curious
June 14th, 2012
10:50 am
“Liberals are certainly not as patriotic as Conservative Americans”.
Joseph,
I’m a Democrat. Served in the Army from Nixon through Clinton. I always thought I supported the military regardless of which party was in power and consider myself patriotic. How many veterans are Liberals or Conservatives today can be argued, but I’d bet there is a mix. Was Cheney, Gingrich, etal any more patriotic than the those Liberals? There’s a lot of soldiers, dead and alive,that carried their water because they had “more important” things to do. Letting someone else serve and put it all on the line in your place is what I call unpatriotic.
In my opinion, real disrespect is those that could have served, didn’t serve, and wrap themselves in the flag. Bottom line is they didn’t care enough about the country or their countrymen to pitch in and help out. All they need to do is look in the mirror and ask themselves “Where was I when my country needed me?”
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
10:51 am
the cat:
I could only imagine how high your blood pressure is right now… You’re like the energizer bunny that keeps on attacking attacking and attacking personally because you simply have no logical answer for anything… LOL
josef
June 14th, 2012
10:51 am
ByteMe…
Unmentionable is a big fan of that genre and has them all. I read “The Affair” just to get a taste. I like a good sleuth read for cotton candy, but as my reading time is limited, most of these are being put on the “in retirement” shelf right now…
stands for decibels
June 14th, 2012
10:51 am
…and I should add, I know a few parents of kids in the BSA (including an Eagle Scout) who are so bleeding-heart they make me look like Ann Coulter’s illegitimate offspring.
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
10:52 am
Curious:
Notice I didn’t say democrat.. I said liberal.. And lets be honest there’s simply not many in our fine military….
ByteMe - Political thug
June 14th, 2012
10:53 am
A combination of the worsening debt crisis in Europe and uncertainty over whether Congress will manage to stave off the scheduled expiration of various lower tax rates at year-end, dubbed the “fiscal cliff,” is souring business and consumer confidence. Job growth has slowed in the past four months, with employers adding the fewest jobs in a year in May.
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
10:53 am
Jm:
I know but its is a joy to gin up Obama’s base… LOL…
stands for decibels
June 14th, 2012
10:53 am
Sad, that Joseph is reverting to what I’ve identified as the apparent Conservative Prime Directive: Piss Off Liberals.
Oh well. I tried.
Joe Hussein Mama
June 14th, 2012
10:54 am
Joseph — ” I’ve honestly never met a vet that wasn’t Conservative.”
You’re talking to several right here on this board.
“Remember libs make up only 20% of the electorate according to recent pools…”
Polls from your fevered imagination, perhaps.
“I had no idea liberal was a bad word…..”
Of course you did. You routinely use it as one, along with the word “socialist.”
Peadawg
June 14th, 2012
10:55 am
“. I said liberal.. And lets be honest there’s simply not many in our fine military….”
Got a link?
Joe Hussein Mama
June 14th, 2012
10:55 am
Joseph — “And lets be honest there’s simply not many in our fine military….”
There are many more than you think. Atheists, too.
JamVet
June 14th, 2012
10:56 am
Yep, the guy is a real work of art.
He shows up with the express purpose of taking a big steaming ____ in the blog’s living room, and they feigns surprise when everybody tells him to ____ off and die.
Also, note his puerile tactic – straight out of those 1960’s, racist, Christian, KKK tracts – of capitalizing the word White and using a lowercase b with the word black.
…Conservatives than liberals…
But he just loves insulting people, getting humiliated in a public forum in the process and then playing the victim, so go figure…
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
10:58 am
Here’s a neat poll…
http://www.gallup.com/poll/154904/Veterans-Give-Romney-Big-Lead-Obama.aspx
stands for decibels
June 14th, 2012
10:59 am
Polls from your fevered imagination, perhaps.
actually, JHM, that’s about right. Demonizing the term “Liberal” is what I’ve long thought of a an open-net goal for Republicans. Actual liberals rarely defend the term, and many consider it an inaccurate label. Or they just don’t like being labeled (so liberal of them!)
And then there was this…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw
ByteMe - Political thug
June 14th, 2012
10:59 am
josef: “The Affair” was the backstory after something like 15 novels with the character. It was the second one of his that I read, so now that I know how he got started, I’m starting over at the beginning to see where each novel takes Harry. I started with Gone Tomorrow and that one just kept me rapidly moving from chapter to chapter. Starts with a woman on a NYC subway train checking off most of the points in an Israeli Army checklist for someone who is a suicide bomber. And Harry decides he should intervene….
I’ve decided I can’t wait for retirement to get to all these books I want to read. I just set aside an hour or two a night for it. Usually better than TV.
Peadawg
June 14th, 2012
10:59 am
“He shows up with the express purpose of taking a big steaming ____ in the blog’s living room, and they feigns surprise when everybody tells him to ____ off and die.”
One thing we could all do is ignore him.
But damn he’s so fun to mess with…
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
11:01 am
Joe Hussein Mama:
You have never seen me write the word socialist.. Except right then… LOL… You should be proud to be called a liberal…
Brosephus™
June 14th, 2012
11:01 am
Y’all have fun… No need to take something as beautiful as what Jay wrote and sully it with this crap.
I’m out….
Bernie
June 14th, 2012
11:02 am
Joesph that’s great, lets see if there wives,girlfriends and children feel the same way after 4-5 deployments to Iran and Syria when Mitt sends them there. They all will be longing for the diplomacy of a real LEADER then.
They BOTH suck
June 14th, 2012
11:03 am
Peadawg
I think it is much better when the regulars mess with each other vs messing with the trolls…….
Not discounting newbies who come in and want to have some honest debate, but the negative attention craving trolls are certainly the worst……. at least their blogging persona.
Curious
June 14th, 2012
11:03 am
“Notice I didn’t say democrat.. I said liberal.. And lets be honest there’s simply not many in our fine military”
Joseph,
I’m assuming you think all Democrats are uniformly liberal. In my case and probably many others, I’m liberal about some things and conservative about others.
I was honest in my post.
the cat
June 14th, 2012
11:04 am
Brosephus-agreed.
josef
June 14th, 2012
11:05 am
ByteMe
I know what you mean. That retirement shelf just keeps growing! I have a lot on my plate that I have to read that my time for reading what I want to is limited. I do have my nightstand reading for that time at the end of the day.
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
11:05 am
Peadawg:
One thing we could all do is ignore him.
That’s not what liberals do. When they hear a different point of view which the majority of the country is starting to trend to they go wild… They simply can’t argue on substance but argue using personal attacks… I’ve proved this over and over…
Jm
June 14th, 2012
11:06 am
Ads
BSA is fine….
Bernie
June 14th, 2012
11:06 am
barking frog@10:41 am That is exactly what the “BUSINESS MAN” did, and his SONS
have followed in the footsteps of the DAD. They are too good to really fight for America, its not in their DNA.
Peadawg
June 14th, 2012
11:08 am
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
11:05 am
Bless your heart
Jm
June 14th, 2012
11:08 am
Sfd, not ads
ByteMe - Political thug
June 14th, 2012
11:09 am
Bless your heart
He thinks you’re complimenting him.
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
11:10 am
Peadawg:
Bless your heart
You are learning though… Using my line from yesterday.. Thanks for keeping up…
stands for decibels
June 14th, 2012
11:11 am
Sfd, not ads
Oh. I thought you were talking about A-Rod Derangement Syndrome, or somethin’.
Peadawg
June 14th, 2012
11:11 am
“He thinks you’re complimenting him.”
Peadawg
June 14th, 2012
11:12 am
“Using my line from yesterday..”
Granny started using that a loooooong time before you starting commenting on here, sport.
Peter
June 14th, 2012
11:12 am
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – About two-thirds of Americans believe Republican former U.S. President George W. Bush is responsible for the nation’s struggling economy, with a smaller percentage blaming Democratic President Barack Obama, a Gallup poll showed on Thursday.
About 68 percent of the more than 1,000 adults surveyed nationwide said Bush, who left office in January 2009, deserves a “moderate amount” or a “great deal” of the blame for the U.S. economic woes compared to 52 percent who pointed to his successor Obama, the poll found.
barking frog
June 14th, 2012
11:12 am
bernie 1106
looks that way for both
parties.
ByteMe - Political thug
June 14th, 2012
11:14 am
About 68 percent of the more than 1,000 adults surveyed nationwide said Bush, who left office in January 2009, deserves a “moderate amount” or a “great deal” of the blame for the U.S. economic woes compared to 52 percent who pointed to his successor Obama, the poll found.
Blaming everyone but the real culprits….
Normal Free...Pro Human Rights Thug...And liking it!
June 14th, 2012
11:15 am
Peadawg
June 14th, 2012
11:11 am
Pea,
Actually I like having Joseph around…When the sh*t in my life starts piling up and I;m getting down on life, all I have to do is think of him…then I feel better..He’s good for morale…
stands for decibels
June 14th, 2012
11:17 am
all I have to do is think of him…then I feel better..He’s good for morale…
what’s that? You’re not “foaming at the mouth” with insane liberal rage, as he likes to imagine?
Peadawg
June 14th, 2012
11:17 am
“When the sh*t in my life starts piling up and I;m getting down on life, all I have to do is think of him…then I feel better..He’s good for morale… ”
Haha…kind of like watching ‘Jersey Shore’
Soothsayer
June 14th, 2012
11:17 am
Well, we’ve got another “biggie” in the golf world this weekend — the U.S. Open.
This year it is being played at the Olympic Club in San Francisco, CA. Of course, all the greats will be there, Tiger, Phil, Rory, Graeme, Jim Furyk, etc.
You can watch today on ESPN @ 12:00 noon – 3:00 pm and NBC from 3:00 pm – 5:00 pm. Check it out.
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
11:17 am
Peadawg:
Probably not skippy…
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
11:19 am
Peadawg:
Haha…kind of like watching ‘Jersey Shore’
Yet another den of liberalism… LOL…
Peadawg
June 14th, 2012
11:20 am
“Yet another den of liberalism… LOL…”
Umm…err…if you say so.
Normal Free...Pro Human Rights Thug...And liking it!
June 14th, 2012
11:22 am
Actually, I don’t blame G. W. Bush for what happened during his years in office. He was a tool, no better than a hammer (and just as smart) for the Neoconservatives of his Party. It wasn’t until the latter part of his last term did he realize that it was going to be his name in the history books did he try to change things…like listening to Cheney. No, old George was a sock puppet with the title of President of the United States.
And if Mitt Romney is elected, it will be more of the same.
Normal Free...Pro Human Rights Thug...And liking it!
June 14th, 2012
11:24 am
Soothsayer
June 14th, 2012
11:17 am
Sooth,
Did you hear about that 14 year old kid playing in it? Youngest ever…
Jm
June 14th, 2012
11:24 am
Sfd, ads is probably a bad affliction
But I’m not familiar with it
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
June 14th, 2012
11:26 am
Granny started using that a loooooong time before you starting commenting on here, sport.
If I’m not mistaken, Joseph was a regular at the old Luckovich blog.
Under a different no-de-blog of course.
Joe Hussein Mama
June 14th, 2012
11:28 am
Joseph — “You have never seen me write the word socialist..”
I think I JUST did. (laughing)
“You should be proud to be called a liberal…”
I’m proud I’m not on the side *you’re* on. You’re the kind of guy whose poor behavior brings his entire team into disrepute.
BADA BING
June 14th, 2012
11:30 am
Flag Day topic has degenerated into racism, so here goes.
Will the KKK offer to clean a blacktopped road?
Will they wear their white robes while they clean? Does that mean they have to stop after Labor Day?
They BOTH suck
June 14th, 2012
11:31 am
Bada
Can they start before Easter?
Stevie Ray
June 14th, 2012
11:31 am
Normal,
Not a big fan of Bush but if you are in a position to opine on his intellect, exactly what happened to the hope and change promised by the allegedly intellectual giant President Trillions? Nothing changed. If fact, when the SCOTUS comes back and reverses that piece of crap HC legislation, we will all see that President Spineless doesn’t even understand contract law…perhaps we shouldn’t expect same from untenured professor, community organizer and junior senator who didn’t finish his term…IMO, anyone who suggests that OB has done better job, all things considered, than Bush is too biased to see reality that they are all the same working withing a corrupt system..
Joe Hussein Mama
June 14th, 2012
11:32 am
Joseph — ” They simply can’t argue on substance but argue using personal attacks…”
Uh huh. So when I educated you regarding blue-slipping yesterday, you didn’t think that was substantive?
getalie
June 14th, 2012
11:32 am
Sane Americans know the economy collapsed under w’s watch and our President needs a second term to finish cleaning up their mess.
This is what the 12 cycle is all about.
Going back to another collapse or finish cleaning up the gop mess.
I am confident the American people will choose to finish cleaning up the gop mess.
carlosgvv
June 14th, 2012
11:33 am
Bernie – 10:19
You completely mis-read and mis-understood my post, just as I knew you would. First, I said nothing about flying the flag. Secondly, I said nothing about patriotism.
Our human recorded history is over 5500 years old. How many valuable lessions from this history have been lost because of book burning and flag burning little minds like yours?
Finn McCool (The System Isn't Broken; It's Fixed ~ from an Occupy sign)
June 14th, 2012
11:37 am
HELLLLO PUBLIC OPTION!!!
http://www.salon.com/2012/06/14/a_back_door_to_the_public_option/
Normal Free...Pro Human Rights Thug...And liking it!
June 14th, 2012
11:38 am
Stevie Ray
June 14th, 2012
11:31 am
You are conveniently forgetting “Our number one priority is making Barak Obama a one term President”, that’s why.
Finn McCool (The System Isn't Broken; It's Fixed ~ from an Occupy sign)
June 14th, 2012
11:39 am
Our human recorded history is over 5500 years old.
Rent “Cave of Forgotten Dreams.” There’s something like a 30,000 year jump. Blows the mind.
BADA BING
June 14th, 2012
11:41 am
Will the KKK only pick up white trash?
Have the Black Panthers offered to clean the roads?
Stevie Ray
June 14th, 2012
11:43 am
NORMAL,
How on earth is that battle cry anything new? So the DEMs didn’t want all GOP presidents to serve one term? If Romney wins, do you doubt the DEMS will have the same battle cry? Nothing has changed and I agree that President Trillions needs to go asap. He lacks vision, business acumen, and most of all, leadership skills to bring both sides of aisle together…Too bad only option is Romney…
Finn McCool (The System Isn't Broken; It's Fixed ~ from an Occupy sign)
June 14th, 2012
11:46 am
Oh, heck, a new WH leaked memo that will upset the unions. Just great, Obama.
Paul
June 14th, 2012
11:47 am
Joseph
“I’ve honestly never met a vet that wasn’t Conservative. ”
Well, as you don’t run in the same circles as General Wesley Clark, past USSOUTHCOM and SACEUR commander, or General Merrill McPeak, past chief of staff of the Air Force, that’s really no surprise.
You really should expand your circle of acquaintances, Joseph -
getalie
June 14th, 2012
11:48 am
finn,
The Pacific trade deal?
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
11:49 am
Joe Hussein Mama:
You argument was irrelevant because it’s a simple fact that now days the Senate and the House come up with a budget. As I proved to you with factual links.. Of course the Senate has simply not done their job.. LOL… Silly libs…
getalie
June 14th, 2012
11:50 am
joe thinks only cons are vets.
It does not get much dumber than that.
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
11:52 am
Paul:
No I don’t. Of course the only reason we know them as being “democrats” is because of their high profile positions…. Do you honestly think General Petrious, Franks, Stormin Norman, or Olie North are dems??? I don’t think so…
Bernie
June 14th, 2012
11:52 am
carlosgvv @11:33 am – Carlos I suggest you inquire and sign up for a course at your local community college on Improving your writing skills. So That way you may learn better way to convey your written opinion of your comments. I responded to what was written only..I have no way of knowing what your intentions are or you what are thinking about. Reread your comments and surely you will find a better way to express your thoughts more clearly. The problem is not with me, its what you wrote. Trust me!
Obviously you are one to do a lot of texting…I suppose!
Jay
June 14th, 2012
11:52 am
“Rent “Cave of Forgotten Dreams.” There’s something like a 30,000 year jump. Blows the mind.
Saw it in the theaters, in 3-D. Fabulous.
Sheets.
ByteMe - Political thug
June 14th, 2012
11:53 am
“getalie”?
Someone changing their name lately?
Paul
June 14th, 2012
11:53 am
Well, golly gee, Joseph, you recognize some vets are liberal and some vets are conservative.
Great insight you have there.
getalie
June 14th, 2012
11:53 am
corrupt congress failed on the budget, closing loop holes and reforming rigged systems.
joe gives his failed corrupt party a free pass and joe has no intellectual honesty like all the cons.
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
11:54 am
getalie:
joe thinks only cons are vets.
I didn’t say that. You’re just showing your liberal stupidity through and through. I said liberal. You won’t find many service members who are liberal. Look at the Gallop poll and the huge lead Romney has with vets. Proves my point… You certainly don’t have anything substantive to prove otherwise…
Joseph
June 14th, 2012
11:55 am
getalie:
The House passed a budget.. The dem lead Senate failed the American people…
getalie
June 14th, 2012
11:56 am
joe,
You can lie over at kyle’s blog but here you will be called out joe.
Can you take it or will you cut and run to kyles?
getalie
June 14th, 2012
11:56 am
joe,
The house budget failed.
Admit this fact joe.
Support Minorities
June 14th, 2012
11:57 am
This is a very informative blog about writers in the media
who have shown consistent bias and insensitivity towards minorities in their coverage of
their work.
http://conscientousethnicchris.wordpress.com/2012/06/01/biased-critic-of-the-month-michael-osullivan-of-the-washington-post/
Joe Hussein Mama
June 14th, 2012
11:58 am
Joseph — “You argument was irrelevant because it’s a simple fact that now days the Senate and the House come up with a budget. As I proved to you with factual links..”
Wrong. You asked why the Senate couldn’t pass a budget and send it to the House. Here’s why, once again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_slipping
You have now been educated.
“Of course the Senate has simply not done their job.. LOL… Silly libs…”
The Senate can’t pass a budget and send it to the House, since the House won’t LET them. The House will simply send it back unread, as has been the House rule for many, many years.
Joe Hussein Mama
June 14th, 2012
12:00 pm
Mortgage SHEETS.
Tom Middleton
June 14th, 2012
1:31 pm
Maybe in honor of Flag Day, Jay, we should all dedicate ourselves to stopping the many Republican-led voter suppression efforts currently underway all over this country. After all, our American flag under an increasingly fascist ideology and party, will not be the sacred flag we are honoring today!
Duck Duck Gray Duck
June 14th, 2012
3:13 pm
This guy was told by his Homeowners Association that he couldn’t fly the American flag in his yard…. http://duckduckgrayduck.com/2012/06/14/this-guy-was-told-by-his-homeowners-association-that-he-couldnt-fly-the-american-flag-in-his-yard/