Is this gov’t by the people, for the people?
In his historic Gettysburg Address, President Abraham Lincoln spoke somberly of the horrific sacrifice that had been made by so many so “that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.”
I do not believe that this is the government of the people, by the people and for the people that Lincoln described, and that our Founding Fathers had earlier fought so hard to create:
Republican superPACs and other outside groups shaped by a loose network of prominent conservatives – including Karl Rove, the Koch brothers and Tom Donohue of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce – plan to spend roughly $1 billion on November’s elections for the White House and control of Congress, according to officials familiar with the groups’ internal operations.
That total includes previously undisclosed plans for newly aggressive spending by the Koch brothers, who are steering funding to build sophisticated, county-by-county operations in key states. POLITICO has learned that Koch-related organizations plan to spend about $400 million ahead of the 2012 elections – twice what they had been expected to commit.
Just the spending linked to the Koch network is more than the $370 million that John McCain raised for his entire presidential campaign four years ago. And the $1 billion total surpasses the $750 million that Barack Obama, one of the most prolific fundraisers ever, collected for his 2008 campaign.
As the piece notes, both Obama and Mitt Romney are expected to raise hundreds of millions of dollars on their own, to fund their own campaigns. As usual, much of that money will come from special interests seeking favors from those they help to elect, and neither party is immune to money’s gravitational pull.
However, that money will at least be traceable back to its source, and the campaigns and the candidates can at least be held accountable by the voter for how they conduct themselves in the public sphere. Neither is true of the money that will pour into superPACS. It is being raised anonymously and will be spent anonymously, with the clear intention of buying not just influence but control.
And while Democrats will attempt to compete — Politico reports that the main pro-Obama superPAC hopes to raise $100 million — the clear financial advantage will belong to conservatives. That advantage will loom particularly large in Senate and House races, where a few spare million can make a very big difference in the outcome.
If your goal is victory for a party calling itself “Republican,” that advantage is a wonderful thing. However, if by “Republican” you mean a small-government party that does not intervene in the marketplace on behalf of immensely powerful special interests, I would suggest that you look more closely at this Trojan Horse being welcomed inside your city walls. People who make billion-dollar investments have a funny way of expecting to profit from said investments.
In time, if the system is not reformed, Democrats too will be forced to bend a knee to those who believe that big money justifies having a big voice, and only the naive would believe that that such a power once unleashed can easily be reined in. It will be government of the people, by the people and for the people only in the sense that, well, corporations are people.
– Jay Bookman
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562 comments Add your comment
That Black Guy
May 30th, 2012
3:08 pm
Adam
May 30th, 2012
2:27 pm
TBG: Now, how about you admit that you have a habit of “putting words into others mouth”?
I did that exactly once to you today and you call it a habit. I’ll admit that I did that to you once today. I apologize.
___________________________________________________________________________
Are you saying you HAVEN’T done it before to my self and others?
Pat
May 30th, 2012
3:08 pm
We’re already there. This is a plutocracy, period.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
May 30th, 2012
3:10 pm
From the “Humankind really don’t need your genes” department.
Mack Wolford, a flamboyant Pentecostal pastor from West Virginia whose serpent-handling talents were profiled last November in The Washington Post Magazine , hoped the outdoor service he had planned for Sunday at an isolated state park would be a “homecoming like the old days,” full of folks speaking in tongues, handling snakes and having a “great time.” But it was not the sort of homecoming he foresaw.
Instead, Wolford, who turned 44 the previous day, was bitten by a rattlesnake he owned for years. He died late Sunday.
[...]
Wolford was 15 when he saw his father die at age 39 of a rattlesnake bite in almost exactly the same circumstances.
Oblama
May 30th, 2012
3:11 pm
Don’t hate – just don’t love what Oblama stands for. S O C I A L I S M.
That Black Guy
May 30th, 2012
3:11 pm
They BOTH suck
May 30th, 2012
2:30 pm
“Adam, are your fingers all wrinkled and prunish from putting words in peoples mouth all day?”
No doubt, funniest post of the month……….
hahahahahah
TBG: Hope you had a great holiday weekend and this week is going welll
________________________________________________________________________
It’s my first day back from Hilton Head Island so it’s a little rough.
The weekend was great, the beach was awesome. Lots to look at if you know what I mean.
Hope yours was great as well.
John Birch
May 30th, 2012
3:11 pm
Jamvet – Most of the budget goes to defense and transfer payments, that’s just reality. And 70% of Americans want something done about the illegal alien situation, and they don’t mean amnesty, but neither Bush and the Rep congress or Obama and the Dem congress did anything substantial about it. Why? 1) we don’[t have a democracy, and 2) When you have the best healthcare money can buy, live in gated communities and send your kids to private schools the aliens are just a source of cheap domestic help, not overcrowded emergency rooms and public schools. Oops, guess that’s racist too in your view. I happen to believe it’s not prejudicial if it’s true!
Adam
May 30th, 2012
3:11 pm
“Also, if that’s an obvious bit of common sense, why are conservatives ganging up to dismantle unions but working hard as hell to give free reign to corporate campaign donations?”
1- Corruption
AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHA
*deep breath*
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!
Joseph
May 30th, 2012
3:12 pm
9 of ten of the top states are red!!!! Just shows the failed demoncrat policies at work…
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/04/gallup_job_creation_best_in_red_state_cities.html
getalife
May 30th, 2012
3:12 pm
Day two on birthers on CNN.
willard needs to man up .
Adam
May 30th, 2012
3:12 pm
Are you saying you HAVEN’T done it before to my self and others?
No I’m sure I have. But if it was a habit wouldn’t I be doing it more frequently and have been called out for it more?
Joseph
May 30th, 2012
3:13 pm
But Jay wants to whine about Super PAC’s…
Joseph
May 30th, 2012
3:15 pm
Why is CNN so facinated with the birther issue??? Sununu set em straight though. LOL….
http://nation.foxnews.com/soledad-obrien/2012/05/30/romney-man-crushes-soledad-o-brien-you-out-be-embarrassed
td
May 30th, 2012
3:16 pm
getalife
May 30th, 2012
3:12 pm
Day two on birthers on CNN.
willard needs to man up .
Less people watch CNN then MSNBC so no one is watching and it does not matter.
Joe Hussein Mama
May 30th, 2012
3:16 pm
td — “You have no rights as an employee”
I’m not *speaking* of employee rights. I’m speaking of *union member* rights. You have clearly misread or misunderstood me.
“As far as shareholders goes they have as much say so as individual union members or as members of an organization because it is their risked money at stake. Where is the risk for an individual union member?”
I see. Risking one’s investment capital is somehow MORE chancy than risking one’s livelihood. Is that actually what you mean to say?
“Where is the risk of a member of the AARP?”
WTF is this prattle about “risk?” What are you trying to say?
“The SCOTUS disagrees with you”
Well, nobody’s perfect.
“and by your definition then the rich will even have more influence then they do now.”
Rejected. You know, you could stand to ask more questions and leap to fewer conclusions.
By *my* definition, there should be ONLY personal donations; no corporate or group donations. Further, by *my* definition, donations should go ONLY to announced candidates and to political parties actually running a candidate in the donator’s district. Furthermore, by *my* definition, there should be an *annual* limit on both candidate and party donations — and it should be a Federal offense to *make* OR to *accept* donations in violation of those limits.
That’s *my* definition. Not the crap you were making up and trying to shove in my mouth.
Matti
May 30th, 2012
3:17 pm
curious
May 30th, 2012
3:02 pm
I suggest all the posters here put down what they’re doing and go to DC to solve the country’s problems.
You’re CLOSE, curious, but not quite. As individuals, particularly middle or working class folks, we have almost zero influence over anything that happens in Washington D.C. But because of the prevalence of cable TV national “news” outlets, people spend time and energy arguing over national stories, day after day, as if our yammering and complaining matters. (For the most part, it doesn’t.)
HOWEVER, if you want to make a difference in the clusterfloogen that is our lovely State of Georgia, or in your respective community, then please start locally! Get to know your city, county, and state representatives. Who are they? Who funds them? What are they voting for and WHY? Not everything that happens here is about who is President. (Not that much, even.) Look around. Our input can make a difference at home, if we’d make the effort to fix our own communities first, instead of whining that DC never rides to our rescue.
That’s what I do, anyway.
Brosephus™
May 30th, 2012
3:18 pm
Doom
1) Enron, Arthur Andersen, Lehman Brothers… YOu act as though corruption is limited to one specific organization.
2) Obviously, you don’t know about Communication Workers of America v. Beck, 487 U.S. 735 (1988). Maybe you should check into that a bit. I’ve tried to explain ad nauseum here that unions can not use dues for political purposes. That meme has been done away with long ago. On the fed level, the unions have formed their own PAC to get contributions. That one’s nothing but Jason Voorhees…
3) And corporations didn’t almost bankrupt the entire country? Save the scorn for one segment dude. Go back and research the number of unfunded benefits left by corporations. What you fail to realize is that unions have to negotiate everything they get. They are not like CEO’s and can buy off a board to pass everything they choose. That’s why it’s called bargaining. Obviously, the MBA’s can’t bargain worth a sh*t, and it’s evident with the CEO packages passed around.
Public sector unfunded pensions grew in 2007 because most, if not all, are vested in the stock market. Add the fact that politicians can’t budget worth a damn and don’t accurately fund things to begin with, and that’s the main cause of your issue. Unions don’t control government budgets, and they don’t set the spending levels. Your issue is with the politicians who negotiate to make the deals, and then don’t hold up their end of the budget. Yet, you allow your partisaned thinking to lay blame on the unions.
JamVet
May 30th, 2012
3:21 pm
Bro, better yet!
Until you
liberalsRepublicansshow the same contempt for Soros,stop spending zillions of dollars going to the movies starring Clooney, and the rest of the Hollywood crowd with their millions going to Obama, you’re just a bunch of doubly hypocritical whiners.That Black Guy
May 30th, 2012
3:21 pm
Adam
May 30th, 2012
2:36 pm
Also for the record, if I put something like “you seem to be saying” that is my attempt at understanding your argument. I will not apologize for or stop this way of attempting to understand just because SOME PEOPLE think it means I’m putting words in their mouth. You can either get butthurt over that or choose to not be offended by it.
_________________________________________________________________________
I’m going to ASSume this was directed at me, so, when I want to better understand someone’s position I will ask a question, such as “Are you saying…” not make a statement like “you seem to be saying”, but that’s just me.
Your typical course of action is “Put TBG down as against ANY campaign contributions whatsoever in a zero tolerance policy.”
Or in response to another poster;
“You are on record as supporting/opposing…”
THAT’S putting words in anothers mouth, which you repeaditly do.
Steve
May 30th, 2012
3:22 pm
Matti – excellent post. Very refreshing!
Oblama
May 30th, 2012
3:22 pm
Dems and Repubs – corruption is a two way street my friend. Psychopaths reside on the far reaches of both sides. The fact is that they are all politicians of, by and for themselves and they are all about getting themselves reelected at any cost. Time is right for a 3rd party of, by and for the people for a change. If Ross Perot was twenty years younger and ran as an independent today he would win in a landslide.
td
May 30th, 2012
3:22 pm
Joe Hussein Mama
May 30th, 2012
3:16 pm
I do not totally disagree with your definition of what should be. The problem is it will require a Constitutional amendment so you better get busy. You may be able to achieve your definition before you die but I sort of doubt it.
Brosephus™
May 30th, 2012
3:24 pm
JamVet
Hell, I know I don’t fund them. It’s far cheaper to wait until movies come out on tv nowadays.
That Black Guy
May 30th, 2012
3:26 pm
Don’t Forget
May 30th, 2012
2:43 pm
Oblama
May 30th, 2012
2:35 pm
No, it’s from the app that the dipship you guys nominated put out.
_____________________________________________________________
*Point of order*. He hasn’t been nominated yet.
Oblama
May 30th, 2012
3:26 pm
Whatever happened to the “alpha dog” Egore? Guess he is proud of his running mate and future inmate.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
May 30th, 2012
3:27 pm
Or in response to another poster;
“You are on record as supporting/opposing…”
THAT’S putting words in anothers mouth, which you repeaditly[sic] do.
Stating that someone is “on record as supporting/opposing…” is a simple observation and not the same as restating a position.
You come here almost every day and single out Adam to somehow make an example of him.
Says more about you than it does him.
Just observin’.
Steve
May 30th, 2012
3:28 pm
No, time is right for the GOP to come back to the center and work for the American people, not corporations. Some of the Dems (conservadems) are equally as reprehensible, but – by and large, the GOP is the problem, and the Tea Party is worse. Libertarians have some good ideals but much of it is not realistic in a 21st century world.
That Black Guy
May 30th, 2012
3:29 pm
Brosephus™ – Fact Assassin
May 30th, 2012
2:45 pm
Bro, although Fox News beats CNN and the other cable news outlets, I don’t think they beat the broadcast news outlets (ABC, NBC, CBS).
If that’s the case, then the talking point needs to reflect that reality and not the dreamed up one where Fox is THE News channel. Also, that still does not negate the fact that, if Fox has higher ratings than CNN and other cable news outlets, they ARE in the mainstream media and not some fringe outlier as people try to portray them.
______________________________________________________________________________
True, but I don’t expect the talking points to reflect reality anytime soon.
BTW, love the “Fact Assassin” addition. It fits you.
barking frog
May 30th, 2012
3:30 pm
Matti
and you will do more to
make things better than
all these wordslingers
combined.
Oblama
May 30th, 2012
3:33 pm
I asked a question this morning that got no response perhaps because there is no logical way to argue in favor of Oblama. I asked “Why is Oblama getting credit for killing Osama?” Did he produce the intelligence that found Osama? NO. Did he develop the plan to kill Osama? NO. Did he personally take part in the invasion that killed Osama? NO. Did he take credit for killing Osama? YES!
That Black Guy
May 30th, 2012
3:34 pm
Brosephus™
May 30th, 2012
2:50 pm
Also, if that’s an obvious bit of common sense, why are conservatives ganging up to dismantle unions but working hard as hell to give free reign to corporate campaign donations? If they are one and the same, isn’t it a conservative principle to let people express their Constitutional right to free speech without government regulation or interference?
___________________________________________________________________
Only if it allows them to gain/hold on to power.
getalife
May 30th, 2012
3:34 pm
You lost the class war .
Move on.
willard needs to man up and talk about the birthers.
Old timer
May 30th, 2012
3:34 pm
Republicans have super pacs….dems have unions…What is the difference?
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
May 30th, 2012
3:35 pm
I asked a question this morning that got no response perhaps because there is no logical way to argue in favor of Oblama.
Or perhaps it was because that it was a really stupid question.
Brosephus™
May 30th, 2012
3:36 pm
TBG
I just try to deal with reality. It’s too friggin’ hard trying to keep up with all the different parallel universes. BTW… if you didn’t see the link I left for a documentary “What Black Men Think” or if you haven’t seen it, you gotta check it out. As a conservative Black man, you’ll probably like it. It exposes some of the myths that get passed around, and it also exposes the more conservative thinking that Black men have. I’ll probably have a dvd copy of it before too long.
Brosephus™
May 30th, 2012
3:36 pm
Only if it allows them to gain/hold on to power.
Word!! Now, only if the partisans are honest enough to admit as much.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
May 30th, 2012
3:37 pm
Since everyone’s vote counts this same, this is a good way to even things out.
In other words, those who produce (vs. non-producers) do the most to help this country.
Let ‘er rip !!
Joe Hussein Mama
May 30th, 2012
3:37 pm
K’Chak — “From the “Humankind really don’t need your genes” department.”
Man. I don’t want to diss anyone solely on the basis of their religious beliefs, but isn’t it a christian aphorism that ‘god helps those who helps themselves?’
Seems to me that guy could have helped himself a whole lot simply by not handling snakes, thereby reducing his need for help from his god, amirite?
barking frog
May 30th, 2012
3:37 pm
Oblama
Obama killed Osama.
That Black Guy
May 30th, 2012
3:37 pm
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
May 30th, 2012
2:59 pm
…redistribute all that ill gotten gain to the crack ho baby mommas…
Why, it was just the other day when I was standing in line at Walgreen’s when this big fat __________ lady had two shopping carts filled with crack and she was paying for it with food stamps….
____________________________________________________________________
Kam, you got it twisted.
You get meth at Walgreens.
You get crack at CVS.
Thulsa Doom
May 30th, 2012
3:38 pm
Joe Mama,
Supreme court has decided that corporations can donate money. Plain and simple and you’re just going to have to live with it. I guess they really are people.
“Come now, Doom, you know what people on my side are objecting to here’.
No. My mind reading abilities have been failing me of late. What is it that you object to? Is it corporate money going to Romney in bigger numbers? Cause you guys sure didn’t seem to have a problem with all that corporate money in the way of folks like Goldman Sachs and all that insurance company money going to O 4 years ago.
“Once again, since you seem to have trouble getting this, the rank and file in a union have FAR more control over the actions of their union than corporate employees do over the actions of their employer.”
That certainly wasn’t my experience nor that of anyone I know in a union. And considering the amount of dues paid it it certainly wasn’t worth it even if the average employee actually did have some control over his union. And if they do have more actual control the idea that they have “FAR” more control is pretty funny given my experience and those of people I know.
“No one said or thought any such thing, Doom. Once again, you make things up and dishonestly try to represent them as my position. I’d appreciate it if you’d stop doing that, please.”
Quite a stretch Joe. That’s not a “dishonest” misrepresentation of your point in any way, shape, or fashion. That’s just me making a point that you know to be true and you just don’t like it. So you resort to your all too predictable pattern of then saying someone is being “dishonest”. I wondered when you were going to bring out that tired old inflated charge of yours. Your bogus charge of dishonesty is the usual shyte we can always expect from you when you don’t like someone’s point.
“I’m going to ask you the same question I asked td. I’d like for you to tell me the percentage of shareholder-led petitions that actually get adopted and acted on each year at US corporations. Go ahead.”
Irrelevant point. And if it was relevant do you really think I’m going to spend my time researching your talking points? Seriously?
Joe mama, Try to keep your points to a minimum. I will answer less and less of them each go around since you seem to drift towards writing novels. I’ve had to admonish you several times on this and yet you just keep going back to novel writing. I realize you’re into blog oneupmanship but try to keep it to just a few major points.
godless heathen
May 30th, 2012
3:39 pm
Is it today or Thursday that the CIA brings the folder full of pictures of towel-heads that could well be terrorists to The President so that he can pick which ones will get zapped off to meet the 72 virgins? Just imagine being an Al Queda camel jockey out there riding around in your old Toyota pick-up, not knowing that the President of the United States has just selected you for “reassignment”. Just bumping along a dusty road with your homeys singing traditional Paki songs when szzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt bam! a Predator missile comes right through the windshield. At least you can take comfort in knowing that you were considered high up in the AQ command enough for them to spend a missile on your low life butt and you can be thankful that you didn’t undergo any enhanced interrogation crap. Just sweet dreams.
Matti
May 30th, 2012
3:39 pm
Steve,
Thanks, and I agree. (I’d actually vote Libertarian more if they’d run candidates that weren’t bat-shiz crazy.) The hyper-partisanship is too much fun for people who like to lash out and unleash their frustrations by blaming others. (Yes, I’m guilty sometimes too.)
But… back to the reasoning mind, nothing gets fixed until “we the people” decide to stop squabbling with each other, put the remotes down, and put the effort into informing ourselves about what’s really going on in our communities. How did a *gasp* “community organizer” become PotUS? For one thing, he got to know what common, everyday American families are struggling with. He wasn’t afraid to roll up his sleeves and get in there to deal with the totally NON-glamorous stuff that never makes it to the national/global “news” scene.
A person who has no idea who represents them at the state capitol has no cred with me in a political discussion. State and local legislators affect us directly: schools, infrastructure, taxes, property values, local economies, corruption…. At this level, the letter beside the name means almost nothing; but they hope you’ll just vote for that letter, trust, and be satisfied, instead of taking a good hard look at what they’re doing.
JamVet
May 30th, 2012
3:40 pm
As most of us know, even after the attempted corproate destruction of capitalism that culminated in the Great Financial Meltdown of 2008, not one single CEO, banker or politician went to jail.
Not one.
A big part of that explanation?
The number of lawyers in the Department of Justice (remember that word?) that would and should be investigating all of these Wall Street crimes is FIVE PERCENT of the number of lawyers who investigated the S & L scandals of the 1980s!!! And those scandals were MUCH smaller than these.
This is the subordination of our government to corporate criminals.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
May 30th, 2012
3:41 pm
Man. I don’t want to diss anyone solely on the basis of their religious beliefs…
My criticism has nothing to do with religious beliefs. That idiot saw his dad die in almost the same manner and didn’t learn a damn thing. Stupid people breed more stupid people.
Joe Hussein Mama
May 30th, 2012
3:42 pm
td — “I do not totally disagree with your definition of what should be.”
Thank you for that, sincerely.
“The problem is it will require a Constitutional amendment so you better get busy. You may be able to achieve your definition before you die but I sort of doubt it.”
Well, I had a different idea in mind. The wife and I finally saw “The Avengers” last weekend, and I kinda figured I could just pull a Loki and wind up in charge of everything. Without Iron Man and Captain America around to knock me on my hiney (and without a Hulk to beat me like a rug in springtime), I should be good to go.
So once I’m in charge, I can just change the political donation system to the system I outlined. But with me in charge, we won’t be needing any pesky political donations any more, so I’ll just outlaw them entirely and y’all can all keep your money. So everyone wins!
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
May 30th, 2012
3:42 pm
Is it today or Thursday that the CIA brings the folder full of pictures of towel-heads…
Aaaaannnnnnnnddddd I quit reading.
barking frog
May 30th, 2012
3:42 pm
If Obama picks the girl to
kill, She will go to Republican
heaven.
Oblama
May 30th, 2012
3:43 pm
Steve – the “center” isn’t where it was just ten years ago. The fact is the Dems “center” is left of where it was ten years ago and the Repubs “center’ is also left of where it was ten years ago. JFK would be far right of where the Dem “center” is today. He was a fiscal conservative. Sam Nunn, considered a moderate leader of the Dem Party a few short years ago would be shunned by the leadership in the Dem Party today for his “far right” views. Neither was for abortion on demand or gay marriage. The Dems are far to the left and the Repubs have moved to the middle. Both are big government spenders but for different causes. Just where is the “center”?
Oscar
May 30th, 2012
3:47 pm
Licoln was poetic, that’s why his speech has been remembered so long. But he was wrong. Our government has always been a government by people elected by those that vote, as amended by those who count the votes.
Not as poetic, but more close to the truth.
They BOTH suck
May 30th, 2012
3:47 pm
Scout
Could you further define producers and non producers?
Unless you are saying those who work vs those you do not, but I don’t want to assume what you are saying
Steve
May 30th, 2012
3:49 pm
Oblama – you do live in a parallel universe. The Dems have not changed much over the years. The GOP, however, has moved completely off the chart to the right. Not sure what planet or dimension you live on, but where I stand, Reagan is a liberal compared to the wingnuts that run your party now.
Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")
May 30th, 2012
3:50 pm
“In time, if the system is not reformed, Democrats too will be forced to bend a knee to those who believe that big money justifies having a big voice”
In time? In time?? In time??? Like the Democrats don’t bow to Unions already? LOL
Oscar
May 30th, 2012
3:50 pm
They BOTH suck
May 30th, 2012
3:47 pm
__
Don’t think Scout counts government employees, including those in the miltary. None of those people produce anything. And does not count people who are unemployed, or stay at home moms. People in service industries don’t produce anything either. Or financial industires. That leaves the factory workers who belong to the unions. So I guess he only counts labor uniion members who work in factories.
That Black Guy
May 30th, 2012
3:50 pm
Adam
May 30th, 2012
3:12 pm
Are you saying you HAVEN’T done it before to my self and others?
No I’m sure I have. But if it was a habit wouldn’t I be doing it more frequently and have been called out for it more?
________________________________________________________________
Whatever d00d.
I’m not going to sit here and play “is it a habit?” with you.
Others here have called you out for it.
But keep whistling.
stands for decibels
May 30th, 2012
3:51 pm
The fact is the Dems “center” is left of where it was ten years ago and the Repubs “center’ is also left of where it was ten years ago.
absolute freaking lunacy, this.
both parties have gone well to the right. Neither party would’ve been talking about surrendering SS benefits in any way, shape, or form, in order to preserve tax breaks for billionaires down the road. Now members in both parties ARE.
And that’s about a zillion times more meaningful in terms of the lives of actual americans than your whingeing about “abortion on demand” (which, I should probably remind you, Republicans used to support, although they called it “legal first trimester abortion” instead of “baby killin’”) or gay marriage (not that I don’t appreciate the civil rights importance of marriage equality, but in terms of how it actually affects most, financially? it’s bupkis.
JamVet
May 30th, 2012
3:52 pm
Dems “center” is left of where it was ten years ago and the Repubs “center’ is also left of where it was ten years ago.
Both parts of that statement are opinions, and are factually incorrect.
And without any verifiable, corroborating evidence, they are interesting, but useless.
They BOTH suck
May 30th, 2012
3:52 pm
Oscar
Thanks, but waiting to see if Scout will clarify. With just a general statement as he posted, it is difficult to reply with an intelligent answer.
Mama Says
May 30th, 2012
3:52 pm
Tell you what Jay, since you are concerned with freedom and represenative rights lets start a compromise movement. We can find it unconstitutional for millioneers to collectively contribute to the republican party soley based on the fact they are rich (which is most surely spelled out in the constitution) and the libs can declare it unconstitutional for the Unions to enforce mandated contributions and membership with which 98 % of the democrats are funded.
Representation would be nice,but maybe I am wrong, maybe ALL blue collar union workers are democrats, humm–doubt it though
Brosephus™
May 30th, 2012
3:53 pm
Steve – the “center” isn’t where it was just ten years ago. The fact is the Dems “center” is left of where it was ten years ago and the Repubs “center’ is also left of where it was ten years ago.
If that ain’t the funniest sh*t ever posted here!!!!!! Dude, Reagan would be far left of the current GOP. You might wanna put both shoes on so that you’re standing straight up and down while trying to gauge where the “center” is located. Wearing only one shoe takes you off of a perpendicular vertical angle and screws up your perspective.
However, your observation does somewhat explain the self-destructive policy of trying to “out conservative” a primary opponent.
GT
May 30th, 2012
3:54 pm
Adam makes a good point. I often wonder if I could wake up one day a con. Not that I have seen anything that would convince me to, but I wonder how the other side can be so wrong, what in hell have I missed, not all of these people are stupid until we start to talk politics. Then they start repeating a lie they heard at church or on television, never researched. I wonder if some people have so much money the lie serves them better than the truth. But then again these same people believe homosexuality is a choice, and I will tell you now if I can decide to be gay I certainly can run off the road and be a con, they both have about as much appeal to me.
Brosephus™
May 30th, 2012
3:55 pm
Damn, after that one, I’ve gotta step away from the pc for a while. I’m hoping that stuff ain’t contagious. Sounds like a case of brain waste.
Paul
May 30th, 2012
3:56 pm
Superpacs?
Could never figure out how people who feel so strongly about an issue could donate such large sums while at the same time be such cowards they don’t want anybody to know what they’re working towards.
Oblama
“. I asked “Why is Oblama getting credit for killing Osama?” Did he produce the intelligence that found Osama? NO. Did he develop the plan to kill Osama? NO. Did he personally take part in the invasion that killed Osama? NO. Did he take credit for killing Osama? YES!”
Did Roosevelt get credit for winning WWII? Did he produce the intelligence, develop the invasion of Europe plan, personally land on Omahaa beach? NO. Should he take credit for being the leader of the most powerful nation that defeated the Axis? Of course not. Cause Roosevelt was just the president at a time our nation was fighting for its very existence. No big deal. Roosevelt was just a figurehead.
sheesh -
They BOTH suck
May 30th, 2012
3:56 pm
Bro @ 3:53
Your reply reminds me of the post a few weeks ago when you spoke about dancing with two left or two right shoes, then I added the bit about corns hurting…….
Mark Josey
May 30th, 2012
3:57 pm
George Soros raises money for Obama is ok,but Karl Rove raises money for Republicans is not ok,correct?
godless heathen
May 30th, 2012
3:59 pm
I’m sorry, Kam. That was insensitive of me. Let me try again.
Is it today or Thursday that the CIA brings the folder full of pictures of
towel-headspeace loving Muslims that could well be terrorists to The President so that he can pick which ones will get zapped off to meet the 72 virgins? Just imagine being an Al Quedacamel jockeypeace loving Muslim out there riding around in your old Toyota pick-up, not knowing that the President of the United States has just selected you for “reassignment”. Just bumping along a dusty road with your homeys singing traditional Paki songs when szzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt bam! a Predator missile comes right through the windshield. At least you can take comfort in knowing that you were considered high up in the AQ command enough for them to spend a missile on yourlow life buttbrave soul and you can be thankful that you didn’t undergo any enhanced interrogation crap. Just sweet dreams.Joe Hussein Mama
May 30th, 2012
3:59 pm
Doom — “Supreme court has decided that corporations can donate money. Plain and simple and you’re just going to have to live with it. I guess they really are people.”
It’s more complicated than that, actually. Are you familiar with stare decisis?
“No. My mind reading abilities have been failing me of late. What is it that you object to?”
We’re objecting to the unaccountability that goes with essentially unlimited and untraceable soft political money. You are, too, but you seem to be objecting to union money simply based on your apparent personal dislike of labor unions. *Some* soft money seems to be okay with you, while other soft money doesn’t. Personally, I think we should eliminate it all.
“Is it corporate money going to Romney in bigger numbers? Cause you guys sure didn’t seem to have a problem with all that corporate money in the way of folks like Goldman Sachs and all that insurance company money going to O 4 years ago.”
Given what I’ve been posting in this thread, your objection is just plain laughable. I’m opposed to ALL political money that doesn’t come from human beings, and I think there ought to be a low and FIRM ceiling on how much individuals can donate. I don’t think that businesses, unions OR civic groups should be donating AT ALL. In short, if you can’t vote, then IMO you can’t donate either.
“That certainly wasn’t my experience nor that of anyone I know in a union.”
Sorry, but my experience and the experience of *many* of my friends and relatives disagrees with yours.
“Quite a stretch Joe. That’s not a “dishonest” misrepresentation of your point in any way, shape, or fashion.”
Yes, actually it is. Neither I nor anyone here even remotely suggested that a rank-and-file union man could just stroll into Hoffa’s office and I think you know it. The stretch was completely your own.
“That’s just me making a point that you know to be true and you just don’t like it.”
No, that’s you being dishonest and suggesting that others are saying things that you know they didn’t say.
“So you resort to your all too predictable pattern of then saying someone is being “dishonest”. I wondered when you were going to bring out that tired old inflated charge of yours. Your bogus charge of dishonesty is the usual shyte we can always expect from you when you don’t like someone’s point.”
I’ll bite then, Doom. Show me EXACTLY where I suggested this: “. . . you think a rank and file union member is going to go strolling into Mr. Hoffa’s office and tell him how he thinks or wants his union dues to go to . . .”
I said nothing of the sort, and you know it. To represent that statement as anything other than dishonesty is absolutely reprehensible.
“Irrelevant point. And if it was relevant do you really think I’m going to spend my time researching your talking points? Seriously?”
Your concession on that point is accepted, Doom.
“Joe mama, Try to keep your points to a minimum.”
No. You will have to try harder to catch up, Doom.
“I will answer less and less of them each go around”
I know you will, and I know you can’t help it. ;D
“since you seem to drift towards writing novels.
Some people find writing easy. If you don’t, that doesn’t obligate me to slow down to your level, Doom.
“I’ve had to admonish you several times on this”
Oh, I hadn’t noticed that! I just thought you were complaining because you couldn’t keep up.
“and yet you just keep going back to novel writing.”
Again, writing is easy for some; not so much for others. Sorry!
“I realize you’re into blog oneupmanship”
Given how frequently you wave your e-peen around on Jay’s blog, this is pretty funny.
“but try to keep it to just a few major points.”
Shall I also use short words of two syllables or less? Would that help? (laughing)
HDB
May 30th, 2012
4:00 pm
If you think that business isn’t driving this election….
http://host.madison.com/business/biz_beat/windfall-rich-will-get-richer-from-new-tax-credit/article_bfe745dc-a44a-11e1-a1b6-001a4bcf887a.html
Windfall! Rich will get richer from new tax credit
On a chilly late February evening, the state’s deepest-pocketed business lobby held its annual awards event at Milwaukee’s Pfister Hotel to celebrate its most successful legislative session in memory.
Members of Wisconsin Manufacturers & Commerce toasted state Sen. Glenn Grothman there for spearheading the “most exemplary public policy initiative in support of manufacturing in more than 35 years,” a news release says.
There’s good reason WMC was so excited: The new policy effectively eliminates state income taxes for many of Wisconsin’s corporations, factory owners and agricultural producers by the time it’s fully phased in.
“We had to do something to change the business climate in the state … and this does it big-time,” says Grothman, R-West Bend.
Slipped into Gov. Scott Walker’s 2011-2013 budget at the last moment, the domestic production tax credit will cost the state $360 million in revenue over the next four years and some $130 million each year thereafter, according to the non-partisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau. Critics warn the impact could be even greater, a key point in a state still struggling with budget shortfalls.
Read more: http://host.madison.com/business/biz_beat/article_bfe745dc-a44a-11e1-a1b6-001a4bcf887a.html#ixzz1wNvwgXiz
Adam
May 30th, 2012
4:00 pm
I asked “Why is Oblama getting credit for killing Osama?”
I answered you before, but I’ll try again.
It’s simple. The sitting President gets credit for any major success of the troops and blame for any major troop failure. Simple as that.
If Osama had been killed under the same circumstances, with the order being given by the President in the exact same situation, in 2007 – would Bush have gotten credit? YES.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
May 30th, 2012
4:00 pm
George Soros raises money for Obama is ok,but Karl Rove raises money for Republicans is not ok,correct?
Did you even bother to read the body of Jay’s piece, or are you responding to what you wanteed Jay to say?
Oblama
May 30th, 2012
4:00 pm
Oh so the story has been revised again? Obama pulled the trigger? Osama was “assigned” for elimination long before Oblama got in office. Don’t really see the hero part of this with Oblama. I don’t see why this would be a difficult political decision. There was a failed invasion in Somalia , approved of by Oblama not long ago where several special forces died in an attempt to save hostages.. I didn’t see a big uproar over that. The vast majority of voters were for killing Osama. There was NO risk to Oblama politically. I’m not saying Oblama did any thing wrong in this case but he is not responsible for killing Osama unless you are saying he could have aborted the mission like Clinton did. The Dems gave him credit while someone else risked their lives. Oblama led media ran with it and Oblama was willing to take credit. That’s the bottom line.
Thulsa Doom
May 30th, 2012
4:01 pm
“1) Enron, Arthur Andersen, Lehman Brothers… YOu act as though corruption is limited to one specific organization.”
Bro in the private sector those people either lose their jobs, get fired in disgrace, or if they were doing things illegally they end up in jail like Madoff. How many politicians are forced to own up to their mistakes and their policies which wreak havoc or end up inhibiting economic growth? Where is their accountability?
2) Obviously, you don’t know about Communication Workers of America v. Beck, 487 U.S. 735 (1988). Maybe you should check into that a bit. I’ve tried to explain ad nauseum here that unions can not use dues for political purposes. That meme has been done away with long ago. On the fed level, the unions have formed their own PAC to get contributions. That one’s nothing but Jason Voorhees…
I gotcha. So unions don’t help or support left wing political causes or candidates. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
3) “And corporations didn’t almost bankrupt the entire country?’
Did corporations run up 16 trillion in debt sir? Did they? Answer the damn question Bro. Who the hell ran up 16 trillion in debt? Who the hell created untold billions in future SS and Medicare liabilities? Answer the question Bro and tell me and everyone on here who did that.
“Go back and research the number of unfunded benefits left by corporations.”
I’ll do that right after I finish researching the amount of unfunded liabilities that govt has promised. And then we can compare them. You game for that Bro? Ya really want to go there sir? Do you?
” What you fail to realize is that unions have to negotiate everything they get.”
Thanks for the enlightenment. Gee I never realized unions have to negotiate. When you condescend then please expect it in return.
” They are not like CEO’s and can buy off a board to pass everything they choose.”
Not this crap about CEO’s again. Geez.
” That’s why it’s called bargaining. Obviously, the MBA’s can’t bargain worth a sh*t, and it’s evident with the CEO packages passed around.”- More wealth envy. As if CEO pay is what bankrupts companies. The last time we had a conversation about something like this it was about the pay of some insurance exec. Turned out his salary was something like .001 percent of everyone’s premium. But this CEO pay crap never gets old for you guys does it?
“Public sector unfunded pensions grew in 2007 because most, if not all, are vested in the stock market. Add the fact that politicians can’t budget worth a damn and don’t accurately fund things to begin with, and that’s the main cause of your issue. ”
Well at least we have an admission that govt is just about damn worthless.
“Unions don’t control government budgets, and they don’t set the spending levels. Your issue is with the politicians who negotiate to make the deals, and then don’t hold up their end of the budget. Yet, you allow your partisaned thinking to lay blame on the unions.”
You’re right about one thing bro. Politicians are chiefly to blame but then unreasonable demands by unions also have a role in the process. The only question is how much blame does each side get- 50/50, 80/20, etc. Personally I go with the 85%-pols, 15% unions ratio of responsibility in implementing benefits which we can’t possibly pay .
That Black Guy
May 30th, 2012
4:02 pm
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
May 30th, 2012
3:27 pm
You come here almost every day and single out Adam to somehow make an example of him.
Says more about you than it does him.
________________________________________________________________________
Did you notice that it was ADAM that responded to what I posted to Jay?
Did you notice that I havn’t posted ANYTHING to Adam in almost 2 week (since the day I apologized to him for being rude to him)
You have been at *ME* since I made that stupid and inappropriate joke about getalife (for which he has forgiven me).
I could say “it says alot about YOU”, but, in all honesty, it doesn’t.
Just observin’.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
May 30th, 2012
4:02 pm
I’m sorry, Kam. That was insensitive of me. Let me try again.
Are you a snake handler by any chance?
They BOTH suck
May 30th, 2012
4:02 pm
Oblama
Keep flailing as you have all day………. One day you will be lucky and land a punch, if you haven’t tired yourself out by that time……
Stay away from any sort of sparing
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
May 30th, 2012
4:03 pm
They BOTH suck:
Seriously, not trying to start something with you, but you know the differnce.
I’m tired of having my vote cancelled by someone who never lifted a finger in their life !
They BOTH suck
May 30th, 2012
4:04 pm
“How many politicians are forced to own up to their mistakes and their policies which wreak havoc or end up inhibiting economic growth? Where is their accountability?”
That is the electorate’s gullibility and fault. Plain and simple
Adam
May 30th, 2012
4:05 pm
TBG: Others here have called you out for it.
Dave R did on a regular basis. I shouldn’t have to explain why he doesn’t count. But it has been a while since anyone said I did this. I’m sorry if I am doing it way more regularly and I don’t notice it, but if it is as bad as you say I am sure there would be more than just a few people here and there saying that I do this more regularly. It’s not like people here don’t speak up when something bothers a majority.
Oblama
May 30th, 2012
4:05 pm
I give Oblama credit for not aborting the mission to kill Osama – which would have been political suicide if it came out. That’s all the credit he gets in my book. There was NO political risk involved here since the public agreed in numerous polls already that Osama should be killed. If the mission failed – so what? At least they tried.
They BOTH suck
May 30th, 2012
4:06 pm
Scout
I wasn’t trying to get into an argument. I was going to reply based on what you deemed as a producer and non producer.
But thanks for the reply.
Sarah Gee
May 30th, 2012
4:07 pm
Jay,
Democrats sold out to big money, win at any cost a long time ago. You might remember that Obama was the first candidate to raise a billion dollars much of it from big banks and big money donors. To pretend otherwise is hypocricy but we are used to it from you.
Jay
May 30th, 2012
4:07 pm
“There was NO political risk involved here since the public agreed in numerous polls already that Osama should be killed. If the mission failed – so what? At least they tried.”
Yeah. Go explain how that works to Jimmy Carter.
Adam
May 30th, 2012
4:08 pm
JamVet: Dems “center” is left of where it was ten years ago and the Repubs “center’ is also left of where it was ten years ago.
Both parts of that statement are opinions, and are factually incorrect.
In fact, there is data that shows the opposite to be true: http://voteview.com/blog/?p=317
skipper
May 30th, 2012
4:08 pm
As opposed to non-contributing bottom-feeders who want everything given to them……not in all, but many cases. Too much apologizing for being successful. Folks like the Kennedys were closet Republicans. Laugh if you want, but they could afford to say “give, give, give” because they already had theirs! They could give away the store and have millions left. So, they stayed rich…the exact folks they claimed to detest. Stop hatin’ on the hard workin’ folks, and, yeah, money talks!
ld
May 30th, 2012
4:08 pm
Money is NOT free speech; money is a super stereo surround sound system that drowns out the voices of “we, the people”–the sound you are hearing is the death knell of democracy.
Matti
May 30th, 2012
4:09 pm
Stout, I’m tired of having my vote cancelled by someone who never lifted a finger in their life !
You understand that in THIS country, all citizens 18 or older have the right to vote (unless it’s removed by felony convictions.) Do you not like this country anymore? Are you angry that you had to defend the Constitution of the United States? Do you regret not running off to join a country where your views of who matters, who counts, and who doesn’t, carry a little more weight?
Where’s my violin?
Oblama
May 30th, 2012
4:09 pm
They Both Suck – you trying to balance yourself on the fence without having to commit to any real opinion is what is really hilarious. You can’t take both sides on every thing or no side on any thing and expect to be taken seriously. Get a back bone. Take a stand on something. What are you for? What are you against?
Paul
May 30th, 2012
4:09 pm
Adam
In Oblama’s world, Alan Mulally gets no credit for Ford’s success because he doesn’t work on the assembly line. Ghosn doesn’t get credit for saving Nissan because doesn’t work the sales floor. Head of NBC’s new series approval head doesn’t get credit because he’s not an actor.
See how it works?
Oblama
“I don’t see why this would be a difficult political decision. ”
You might want to write to Bill Gates, past SecDef and head of CIA, who said he wouldn’t have given the order to proceed.
Adam
May 30th, 2012
4:09 pm
Scout: I’m tired of having my vote cancelled by someone who never lifted a finger in their life !
No such person exists, unless disabled from birth.
GT
May 30th, 2012
4:10 pm
Notice how Romney branded Carter while explaning he would do the same as Obama.
Matti
May 30th, 2012
4:10 pm
ld @ 4:08,
TRUTH!
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
May 30th, 2012
4:10 pm
P.S. to They BOTH suck:
In other words …………………
“INEPTOCRACY”
“A system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.”
They BOTH suck
May 30th, 2012
4:10 pm
Adam and Oblama
The credit goes to the TROOPS, CIA, etc; whomever was on the ground gathering intelligence and those who actually carried out the mission.
Whomever is in the WH loves the credit because they made the “call”, plus it is good for PR.
Before Iraq turned into a clusterfvck, many on the right couldn’t lavish enough praise on Bush because he made the call to invade, however he didn’t do the “heavy lifting”.
Same goes for Obama with OBL.
Saying it was on their watch and they should be credited for the call is one thing………….. Credit for the execution is another story indeed
JamVet
May 30th, 2012
4:11 pm
If the mission failed – so what? At least they tried.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
Like you neocons aren’t STILL ragging on Jimmy Carter for the failed Operation Eagle Claw???
Every last one of the swiftboating wannabes and permanently affected ODS types would be going apesh*t crazy, non-stop.
I also noticed that you ran away, like a scalded dog, from that bizarre assertion about which direction both major political parties have moved.
I think it’s time to bring out that Castaways song again…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMXGSP_nPyY
Adam
May 30th, 2012
4:12 pm
Paul: I see how that works, if it were consistent. But it’s not.
Oblama
May 30th, 2012
4:13 pm
I wouldn’t compare Oblama to the head of these “evil” CEO’s if were you. Your comparison is absurd. I gave Oblama credit for not aborting the mission. That is what he did – nothing more – nothing less. I have no disagreement with what he did. Just don’t think the credit for the SUCCESS of the mission was his to take.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
May 30th, 2012
4:13 pm
Matti:
See my 4:10
They BOTH suck
May 30th, 2012
4:14 pm
Oblama
I have expressed my opinion on here numerous times. The fact that you may not agree in itself means NOTHING, except that you do not agree.
It might be hard for you to comprehend but it takes much more of a “backbone” to actually call out both sides on any given issue than it is to blindly follow like a sheep
So as I posted earlier, keep flailing. NOPE, wait a second Better for you to stop, best you could do would be to punch yourself……….
Jefferson
May 30th, 2012
4:14 pm
In case you folks didn’t know Carl Rove is a traitor and a liar.
UNCLE SAMANTHA
May 30th, 2012
4:15 pm
why doesnt OBAMA get SOROS, BUFFET and HOLLYWOOD to get him a billion dollar PAC?
Jack
May 30th, 2012
4:15 pm
It’s been said many times before and also in this blog: not voting is the reason we got Obama. If you don’t vote and don’t support your party, you get exactly what you deserve.