A bit more on conservatives, liberals and civil rights
I see where Kevin Williamson of National Review has responded to my critique of his thesis that the Republican Party is “the party of civil rights”.
According to Williamson, my “not very smart take” is that “Sure, Republicans were good on civil rights for a long time, but those were liberal Republicans, so you can’t claim them, since they’d be Democrats now.”
While that statement has some truth in it, it was not my argument at all. As I wrote, asking which party is the party of civil rights is simply the wrong question; the battle lines back then were much more clearly drawn between liberal and conservative than between Democrat and Republican. And as history demonstrates, conservatives taking credit for the civil rights revolution is like Mitt Romney swooping in to take credit for rescuing the U.S. auto industry.
But if you’re interested, go read Williamson and draw your own conclusions.
– Jay Bookman
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170 comments Add your comment
Chuck
May 30th, 2012
11:29 am
That isn’t the point, I was countering your statement that there were to attacks on blacks up north in the 60’s, my point wasn’t to prove that the south has always been a mecca of tolerance, just that you have no idea of what you are prattling on about and just trying to bring attention on to yourself.
Ray Charles
May 30th, 2012
11:29 am
Lest we forget…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8IqkRbxcTA
josef
May 30th, 2012
11:31 am
I’ve NOT lived here my whole life. I was “deported” on the national evening news hour broadcast by the Governor of Mississippi for my actions in behalf of civil/human rights. I “refugeed,” cursing my native land as I went. What I found Up There, was much the same thing, and not always so subtle. I came back home with a broader perspective as to the nature and prevalence of racism and inequality, but more importantly, with a new appreciation for the inherent goodness of the homo sapiens.
Adam
May 30th, 2012
11:33 am
td: Keep playing that race card and living on the white liberal plantation
The fact that you don’t understand how much you out yourself as a bigot by composing JUST THIS part of your sentence is very funny.
They BOTH suck
May 30th, 2012
11:33 am
Jamvet
You have a great point. Once you get past Ds or Rs and look at the issue from a liberal and conservative view point, it has been liberals who have led the way, regardless of party affiliation.
Josef and I were discussing last week the “plantation” and “limousine” liberals. They certainly exist and to an extent are good with the status quo, as long as they run the show.
With that said, it has been “liberals” and those who were more liberal leaning on issues of civil rights that have pushed the country in the right direction.
People can argue all day, but in the end, it has not been the “conservative movement” (Dems or Repubs) that have been the one’s who were looking for change
Soothsayer
May 30th, 2012
11:33 am
Crude oil falls below $88/barrel.
josef
May 30th, 2012
11:34 am
GRANNY
Thanks for that comment on Sikorski…now it makes more sense…
Adam
May 30th, 2012
11:35 am
Crude oil falls below $88/barrel.
Where are the conservatives that were blaming the President for rising oil prices now?
Silent. Because they KNOW he has nothing to do with it and will only credit him with prices when they are RISING because they are political opportunists on that issue.
Recon 0311 2533
May 30th, 2012
11:36 am
Actually Richard Nixon for all of his personal flaws was a champion of civil rights.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/general-article/nixon-domestic/
They BOTH suck
May 30th, 2012
11:37 am
Adam
The oil price blame and credit game is played on both sides……….
You may not play that game, but as many on the left play it as on the right.
Pretty stupid and simplistic regardless of which side is playing it at any given time
JamVet
May 30th, 2012
11:38 am
td, I’d give you a grade of C- for that answer, and only because I grade on a curve!
I can, and have, listed dozens and dozens of men and women – BY NAME – though sissy progressives (hat tip Oblama!) took on INJUSTICE by risking their very lives.
Northern, nosy Jews.
Those seven liberal whites who rode on that first Freedom Ride. (And got their heads kicked in by conservatives for doing so.)
Liberal churches, north, south, east and west. (While conservative southern churches fueled the Klan with members.)
Liberal politicans, again int he south and north who demanded that equal rights no longer be just an option.
While the arch-conservatives fought desperately AGAINST that equality. And who to this day have a very adversarial relationship with minorities. Of ALL kinds.
td, that you and your conservative cronies cannot name even ONE, SINGLE, SOLITARY conservative champion in this cause is both tragic and illustrative.
I contend that your non-answer aside, it is because there simply are none.
Recon 0311 2533
May 30th, 2012
11:38 am
Oil prices are falling because of weakening in the U.S. and global economy. Not because of anything Obama has done.
josef
May 30th, 2012
11:39 am
BROSEPHUS
I don’t know if you’ve caught any of it or not, but the program on PBS “The West and the Rest…” Really some interesting sh*t there, and especially the conclusion. Lots of Gibbon…
ajcer
May 30th, 2012
11:39 am
Einstein said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. the liberal doctrine defines insanity. Despite having control of Congress for much of the last century and instituting liberal doctrine, the black condition has worsened. yet, they still want to convince people that the liberal idealogy, if given more time, can produce different results. I dont care who you are, no one can argue with the numbers.
Chuck
May 30th, 2012
11:40 am
I agree that for about 250 years “conservatieve” held the black race in boundage with chains, but for the last 40 year “liberals” have held the black race in boundage with failed social engineering, well intentioned but crippling welfare polcies, and a poor educational system.
josef
May 30th, 2012
11:41 am
Well, just to keep the record straight here, but Tricky D*ck was the best friend the Red Man ever had before or since at 1600…
Mick
May 30th, 2012
11:42 am
recon
Does that mean that when oil prices rise again it will be obama’s fault or have people figured out that the president has no control of it???
Brosephus™
May 30th, 2012
11:42 am
Don’t see a corollary between Wall Street and black people on public assistance who’ve been sold a bill of goods that Democrats look out for their interests, while Republicans don’t care.
That’s because you’re focused on the public assistance group and not the group profiting from that group. Just as Wall Street profits off the back of Americans, there’s a group that profits off the backs of Black Americans. When you and other’s open your eyes to that point, then you’ll begin to see the truth. Until that time comes, you’re not gonna see anything beyond welfare queens.
Mary Elizabeth
May 30th, 2012
11:42 am
Our nation was based on the egalitarian principle that “all are created equal,” as penned by Thomas Jefferson. It has not always lived up to those ideals. However, that basic egalitarian principal was part of the Democratic-Republican Party founded by Jefferson which received wide support in 1800. Later, when Andrew Jackson became president, the Democratic-Republican part split apart, but Jackson’s Party, the Democratic Party, incorporated the egalitarian principles of Jefferson’s Democratic-Republican Party, within its tenets. Jackson’s Democratic Party inherited becoming the party of the “common man.” Franklin Roosevelt, also a Democrat, was said to have been a “traitor to his elitist class” because he became a Democrat, and because he supported programs which served the well-being of the poor and of the “common man.” His wife, Eleanor Roosevelt, also a Democrat, was a strong proponent for Civil Rights. John Kennedy, and Lyndon Johnson, both Democrats, furthered the cause of the Civil Rights Movement.
Thus, the Democratic Party’s line of support for the “common man” and the civil rights of the common man has had its roots all the way from Jefferson to the present day. However, an aberration occurred to this natural flow of egalitarianism within the Democratic Party, specifically, because of the prejudices of the Southern Democrats toward African-Americans, a by-product of slavery. As previously stated, the nation has not always lived up to its ideals, and the Democratic Party has not always lived up to its basic principle of egalitarianism, especially in the South. The Southern Democratic Party, operating with the system of Jim Crow, failed to include blacks within its egalitarian, “common man” principles. As a result, Southern blacks voted for the Republican Party because the Democratic Party – just in the South – had not extended its “common man” tenets to all citizens, as it should have. However, this failure in the Democratic Party to live up to its basic egalitarian principles was not a failure in the Democratic Party throughout the nation, but only in the South.That failure showed forth when the Dixiecrat Democrats were formed only in the South – as an offshoot of the national Democratic Party. And, that is the reason – accurately predicted by LBJ – that the former Southern Dixiecrat Democratic Party would morph into the present Republican Party in the South.
Nevertheless, the underlining principle behind the Democratic Party, originating from the ideals and thinking of Thomas Jefferson, has been a faith in the inherent and egalitarian rights of the “common man.” That ideally includes the civil rights of all people, including African-Americans. The root of the word “democratic” means “the people.” Thus, the Democratic Party has been the party of civil rights for all, from Jefferson through Jackson, through FDR, JFK, and LBJ to Carter, Clinton, and Obama, with an aberration of those principles occurring only within the Southern Democratic Party, which changed to the Republican Party, as a result of its not being able to extend those egalitarian principles to all of its citizens. The Republican Party, by contrast, has traditionally been an elitist party, and, thus, a hierarchial political party, in principle. To say that the Republican Party is the party of Civil Rights in America is fundamentally wrong.
josef
May 30th, 2012
11:42 am
CHUCK
Let’s get real, slaveholders were among the most prominent of the Liberal Enlightenment…
Brosephus™
May 30th, 2012
11:44 am
josef
Missed that one. I’ll have to see if I can find it online.
Adam
May 30th, 2012
11:46 am
They BOTH suck: Yes but then you hear arguments from the right that the media SHOULD be blaming Obama for gas prices NOW because they did when Bush was in office. And the fact that they’re not makes them the “liberal media.”
I don’t see an equivalent twisting of the truth from the left:
“I hope he carries Michigan, but to me there’s something not quite right about a political system that will rely on modifications of the truth in order to get the political job done,” Lutz said.
josef
May 30th, 2012
11:47 am
BROSEPHUS
Do. I assure you, it’s worth it…his conclusion made me stop and rethink…
Adam
May 30th, 2012
11:48 am
Chuck: but for the last 40 year “liberals” have held the black race in boundage with failed social engineering, well intentioned but crippling welfare polcies, and a poor educational system.
And your point is that conservatives would like to FUND a BETTER public school system with FEDERAL money, and uncripple welfare policies instead of dumping more people into poverty, right?
They BOTH suck
May 30th, 2012
11:49 am
Adam
After this post I am done with the issue. The left cried like babies when prices went up in 08. The right has been doing the same within the last year. As prices go down, the cry babies stop crying……. at least on that issue
Plain and simple……….
Recon 0311 2533
May 30th, 2012
11:49 am
“That’s because you’re focused on the public assistance group and not the group profiting from that group. Just as Wall Street profits off the back of Americans, there’s a group that profits off the backs of Black Americans. When you and other’s open your eyes to that point, then you’ll begin to see the truth. Until that time comes, you’re not gonna see anything beyond welfare queens.”
I don’t see anything specific in the form of a point other than an apparent dislike for profits.
Adam
May 30th, 2012
11:49 am
Because, on topic, let me give you a hint: The conservatives are pushing policies that are racist. They want BUSINESSES to decide for themselves whether or not to put up whites only signs because “that’s freedom.”
josef
May 30th, 2012
11:50 am
ADAM
Just being EOI, but weren’t you earlier praising the superiority of private education?
Looks like plantation liberalism to me…
JamVet
May 30th, 2012
11:51 am
ajcer, your grade is a solid F.
NOT the FIRST conservative champion of civil rights.
When you consider it, that is rather pathetic, huh?
Not even one.
No wonder you guys get virtually no support from ANY minority group…
Jay
May 30th, 2012
11:52 am
Despite having control of Congress for much of the last century and instituting liberal doctrine, the black condition has worsened. yet, they still want to convince people that the liberal idealogy, if given more time, can produce different results.
That’s just a patently ridiculous claim. Black Americans are a lot better off today than they have been at any point in this country’s history. Take a look at who’s living in the White House. Take a look at per capita income among black Americans, up almost 30 percent since 1990 even after adjusting for inflation.
Really, the whole argument that black Americans vote Democratic because they like to be “kept” is condescending, insulting and patronizing. And the fact that conservatives can make such an argument and then profess shock that black Americans don’t flock to their cause is simply confounding.
They BOTH suck
May 30th, 2012
11:54 am
Adam: The conservatives are pushing policies that are racist. They want BUSINESSES to decide for themselves whether or not to put up whites only signs because “that’s freedom.”
You are getting pretty good at the broad brushing and paint sprayer applications. Just like some of the right leaning bloggers you call out on this very blog.
Wouldn’t the words “some”, “several”, etc be much more truthful instead of “the conservatives”…………..
Matti
May 30th, 2012
11:57 am
I will only speak for myself: I am FOR equal rights… for everybody. I am a Democrat. And to confirm what Mr. Bookman said a moment ago, I am not “keeping” any black Americans.
josef
May 30th, 2012
11:57 am
BOTH
Broadbrushing is a plantation liberal art form, challenged only by the compassionate conservatives!
Adam
May 30th, 2012
11:58 am
josef: Just being EOI, but weren’t you earlier praising the superiority of private education?
Looks like plantation liberalism to me…
No I was arguing with Thulsa that there’s no substantive difference in terms of efficiency between public and private, and he contends that private education producing “better results” is evidence that I am wrong. And by better results he means overall they score better on selected tests. But he fails to show that private education is actually substantively better, because there are also studies about vouchers showing that children who come from public schools suddenly in a private education do not do any better.
They BOTH suck
May 30th, 2012
11:59 am
josef @ 11:57
so so true
DawgDad
May 30th, 2012
12:00 pm
I’m not interested, and for the record, I do not consider the party of pandering, race baiting, extortion, demagoguery, and racial preferences to be the “right” side of “civil rights”.
It’s important to distinguish “civil rights” from “great society” programs when discussing civil rights. Liberals aren’t prone to tolerate this distinction, and that in itself is very instructive.
josef
May 30th, 2012
12:00 pm
IMAM
Oh, get real, Blacks vote for the Democrats because there’s no viable alternative…it’s the same fix a lot of Dem voters of various hues find themselves in…
Adam
May 30th, 2012
12:01 pm
They BOTH suck: I could go down the qualifying rabbit hole all day. So I missed a qualifying word. My bad. If I need to clarify I’m talking about the ones with power – the ones in office. Sure, not ALL of them. And I also have yet to see more than a few of them say they DON’T want such policies. They just kind of ignore it when their colleagues bring it up.
Jay
May 30th, 2012
12:02 pm
So Josef, you apparently see a contradiction between your point and mine.
I do not. I see them as saying the same thing in two different ways.
Brosephus™
May 30th, 2012
12:02 pm
I don’t see anything specific in the form of a point other than an apparent dislike for profits.
You see things wrong. Nowhere did I state that I had a dislike for profits. You choose to see what you want to instead of what’s actually in front of you. People are driven to make money nowadays. It’s no different if you’re trading stocks on Wall Street, turning a wrench on Main Street, or peddling false information to feed a national narrative that is factually wrong.
Those who you and others claim to “hold Blacks down” in order to get votes do not do it for the votes. They do it for the profit it brings them personally. That’s my point. If and when I have a dislike for profits, I will say “I have a dislike for profits”. I don’t have a problem in expressing what I think, as you probably already know.
josef
May 30th, 2012
12:03 pm
ADAM
Thanks for the clarification. Are you in favor of standardized testing and federal involvement in setting the standard? Did you go to public schools? No, not being snarky, really would like to know.
Adam
May 30th, 2012
12:03 pm
DawgDad: I do not consider the party of pandering, race baiting, extortion, demagoguery, and racial preferences to be the “right” side of “civil rights”.
Put DawgDad down as thinking the GOP is not on the “right” side of “civil rights” (scare quotes are so telling, aren’t they?)
Brosephus™
May 30th, 2012
12:04 pm
josef
Jay’s saying the same thing you are, but he’s making it all flowery fresh.
barking frog
May 30th, 2012
12:04 pm
Jay,josef
just the difference between
a wordsmith and a word
scientist..
josef
May 30th, 2012
12:04 pm
JAY
Not at all! I was just saying the same thing in less diplomatic terms! I can, you can’t…
Seriously, though, I do think it’s long since time we did address that particular matter head on and let the chips fall where they may…
ajcer
May 30th, 2012
12:05 pm
Jay,
Its funny that you cite the time period of black per capita income around the 1990s. I guess it doesnt matter that this is the time period that Americans started voting in more republicans in Congress, leading to to the Republican revolution that started in 1992 and culminated in Republican dominance of Congress throughout much of the 1990s and into 2006 when the dems took back control. yeah, you all did a great job.
They BOTH suck
May 30th, 2012
12:06 pm
Adam
Thanks for the reply. No offense, but start reading some of your own posts when you call out some of the right leaning bloggers for what they say. There are times that you come across with as much general and generic broad brushing as some of them do.
Adam
May 30th, 2012
12:07 pm
josef: Are you in favor of standardized testing and federal involvement in setting the standard? Did you go to public schools?
I am in favor of some kind of standard, but I am not in favor of that being only testing, or only testing specific subjects, or judging teachers based on test scores (even LESS so if it’s a firing offense). We’ve seen where that road leads – to cheating and less actual teaching and learning.
I am in favor of us recognizing that we will NEVER get all kids up to a certain standard. Some just won’t get there. It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try and it doesn’t mean we should take the money away.
And yes, I went to public schools AND private schools at varying points. I cannot at all show that one was better than another through anecdotal evidence, nor should I since that’s a logical fallacy.
Jay
May 30th, 2012
12:07 pm
ajcer, that response is more lame than a two-legged dog.
Adam
May 30th, 2012
12:08 pm
They BOTH suck: There are times that you come across with as much general and generic broad brushing as some of them do.
I try not to but it happens.
They BOTH suck
May 30th, 2012
12:08 pm
Adam
Forgot to mention. It takes away from your points and argument at times.
Peace
ajcer
May 30th, 2012
12:09 pm
Mean black family’s net worth: 1992 – $69k, 2001 – $75k
Gee, that increase also coincides with the Republican revolution.
Jay
May 30th, 2012
12:13 pm
So ajcer, your initial point is that black Americans have made no progress. When it is proved that you are wrong, that they in fact have made substantial progress, you suddenly switch your claim and now argue that they have in fact made substantial progress and that Republicans deserve the credit.
And you think nobody noticed this swift change of position?
You sir have a future with the Romney campaign.
ajcer
May 30th, 2012
12:15 pm
Let’s count how many states are republican and how many states are democrat, shall we…hmmm, i notice a consistent pattern here.
Top Ten Cities for African-Americans, 2007
These cities were selected by Black Enterprise (BE) magazine as the top ten places for African Americans in the United States. Each city was evaluated on black homeownership rates, median black household income, black home loan rejections, percentage of black college graduates, black unemployment rates, percentage of black households earning more than $100,000 a year, and percentage of black-owned businesses.
Rank City, State % Black Population
1. Jacksonville, Fla. 22.5
2. Columbus, Ohio 14.1
3. Indianapolis, Ind. 14.6
4. Charlotte, N.C. 23.4
5. Dallas, Tex. 14.2
6. Nashville, Tenn. 15.3
7. Houston, Tex. 16.8
8. Raleigh-Durham, N.C. 21.3
9. Atlanta, Ga. 30.8
10. Washington, D.C. 26.6
http://www.infoplease.com/us/states/top-ten-cities-african-americans.html#ixzz1wN0wwWZo
josef
May 30th, 2012
12:18 pm
ADAM
Not for federal involvement in the k-12 system myself and those in charge of testing are out to lunch. But, I’m with you on the public-private experience. I had both and, beyond the socialization process, there wasn’t any real difference in the content or quality of the curriculum and instruction.
ajcer
May 30th, 2012
12:19 pm
jay, you are so full of it. seriously. all of my points dealt with liberal idealogy. further it was you who extracted out a single decade, negating the time period before and the time period since democrats took back control of congress.
please save your lies and deceits for your own party. they are gullible enough to buy it.
josef
May 30th, 2012
12:22 pm
Black American progress has been due to two factors…more open access and the hard work and diligence of the individual citizens taking advantage of those apertures. Political party really has little to do with the progress.
Why would Blacks be so strongly (even yellow dog) Democrats? For the same reason my Granny was…they’re the ones that opened up the voting booth.
ajcer
May 30th, 2012
12:24 pm
and amazingly, no one has responded about the racism of the unions, but i guess that is just another inconvenient truth.
josef
May 30th, 2012
12:25 pm
ajcer
“…please save your lies and deceits for your own party…”
The Imam has a party? Maybe we DO have an alternative…Imanistas, unite!
They BOTH suck
May 30th, 2012
12:26 pm
josef
You are on a roll……… Have to get some work done. Out for awhile
have a great day
josef
May 30th, 2012
12:29 pm
Why didn’t somebody say fresh sheets…I was beginning to run out of comments to react to…
ajcer
May 30th, 2012
12:32 pm
josef, love the comments. jay, you are ineffective as usual. have a great day!
Joe Hussein Mama
May 30th, 2012
12:40 pm
ajcer — “seriously. all of my points dealt with liberal idealogy”
No, they didn’t.
They dealt with conservative mythology *about* liberal ideology.
Don't Forget
May 30th, 2012
12:44 pm
Cheesy, I think the biggest problem with your observations are that they are likely more reflective of power structures than the general population. Not entirely of course, especially since the power structures are somewhat representative of the general population but it’s the power structure that allows bad people to get away with more than they should
stands for decibels
May 30th, 2012
12:54 pm
the whole argument that black Americans vote Democratic because they like to be “kept” is condescending, insulting and patronizing
yeah, I’m no longer tolerant of a-hole conservatives who make that argument these days. Conservatives know better–they’re just lying to themselves and to others.
Headin’ upstairs.
Adam
May 30th, 2012
1:16 pm
josef: Well, there WAS a difference in one of my private schools that made it so that I was not able to advance in math classes as quickly as I would have otherwise. They taught the same math to both 7th and 8th grade, and I had already learned it. But that is an isolated issue.
I think federal can be involved, I just don’t see the benefit to being so rigid about it. We do need a standard that applies across all states, such as evolution belongs in science class and creationism belongs in philosophy/theology classes. The classes of the latter are useful as they actually help speed along critical thinking. Focusing only on math and science is a rigid adherence to rote memorization, which is bad because it means the sum of your knowledge is mostly just trusting an authority figure to give you everything straight – and we all know that sometimes doesn’t even happen in school. People need to learn to think for themselves but also know when facts are facts and opinions are opinions.
Mike
May 30th, 2012
2:16 pm
Julie or Julia, can’t remember, it was several pages back, he wades through it, because he starts it all.
It is hilarious to watch each day as the same 10-12 people that comment on this blog, go at each other.
What a job Mr. Bookman has. Just dream up stuff to pizz people off and then stand back and watch.
Moderate Line
May 30th, 2012
6:26 pm
As I wrote, asking which party is the party of civil rights is simply the wrong question; the battle lines back then were much more clearly drawn between liberal and conservative than between Democrat and Republican.
+++++
FDR had above 70% of the vote in the following states in 1944 Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina and Texas. At this point in time civil rights wasn’t even an issue. 12 years into the New Deal and southerners were still supporting the it in margins greater than
anyone else. Poor Southerners supported the had no reason not to support liberal economic policies until the civil rights movement came along. Read about Huey Long who dominated Louisiana politics.
The civil rights vote was regional, not ideological or partisan. I think that is the generally accepted explanation.
Spoons
May 31st, 2012
12:20 am
Just to correct some of the commenst on here. The 1964 Civil Rights Act had a higher percentage of republicans voting for it than democrats. Now some may say liberal vs conservative but the facts are sitll a higher percentage of republicans voted for the bill. The real point that I think is being missed is both parties want to allow opportunity for all. The differrence is the means to achieve it, and there is the difference in the two parties
JamVet
June 3rd, 2012
11:34 am
http://www.myspace.com/music/player?sid=39015927&ac=now