‘… debt-ceiling standoff is an act of economic sabotage’
With congressional Republicans promising to create yet another standoff on the debt ceiling, Betsey Stevenson and Justin Wolfers, professors at the highly regarded Wharton School of Business, write in Bloomberg about the economic consequences of the first crisis last summer.
They note, for example:
“Growth in nonfarm payrolls decelerated to an average 88,000 a month during the three months of the debt-ceiling impasse, compared with an average of 176,000 in the first five months of 2011. Payroll growth subsequently recovered and has averaged 187,000 jobs a month since. Despite the rebound in job growth, employment is likely still below where it would otherwise have been.”
And consumer confidence — critical in this recovery — took an even greater and more spectacular tumble, as these numbers from Gallup demonstrate:
They conclude:
“All told, the data tell us that a debt-ceiling standoff is an act of economic sabotage. The only way to avoid this conclusion is to argue that consumers and employers were reacting to some other economic factors. But the debt ceiling was the dominant economic story at the time. No other news fits the data as well. Although the European debt crisis was a rising concern throughout 2011, the real trouble in Europe arose in the period when consumer confidence and employment were recovering.
The next debt-ceiling battle could be worse, because the stakes are even higher. In addition to the threat of default, the U.S. is facing the so-called fiscal cliff: a raft of spending cuts and tax increases that will happen at the end of this year unless Congress acts to postpone them. Another stalemate would almost certainly plunge the economy into a deep recession.”
It’s also important to note that the standoff created an historic downgrade of the USA’s credit worthiness. And for what? Congressional Republicans got a budget-cutting agreement out of the standoff, but it’s a deal that they began to repudiate almost immediately after it was announced and that they are now actively seeking to undermine.
Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t trust the wisdom or patriotism of people who willing to risk the destruction of the economy to make a political point.
– Jay Bookman
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783 comments Add your comment
They BOTH suck
May 29th, 2012
3:56 pm
TD @ 3:48
Now that was funny
hahahahaha
mm
May 29th, 2012
3:57 pm
“Those admission records from Harvard and Columbia need to be unsealed !”
Again, the cons will do anything to divert attention away froms the Jobs, Jobs, Jobs they haven’t created as promised in 2010.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
May 29th, 2012
3:58 pm
More “Hope and Change” for you !
Headline: “Consumer confidence plunges in May”
“NEW YORK (AP) — Americans’ confidence in the economy in May had its biggest drop in eight months as consumers fretted about slow hiring, a big stock market drop and the global economy, says a private research group.”
http://news.yahoo.com/consumer-confidence-plunges-may-140420807–finance.html
JamVet
May 29th, 2012
3:58 pm
Damn, I must be slipping.
I didn’t even get namejacked by that troll…
Forget the Big Tent.
Today’s GOP “is more like a private club. And there is a guard at the door.”
Some Republitwits in Texas went the Bash the Latino route. One problem, he’s a Cuban American. But I guess that is brown enough!
http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/29/opinion/navarrette-gop-latinos-texas/index.html?hpt=hp_c1
Thulsa Doom
May 29th, 2012
3:59 pm
“The Democratic candidate for president, Mr. Kerry had previously declined to release his college transcript, which was included in his Navy records. He gave the Navy permission to release the documents last month, The Globe reported”
He eventually released I suspect under pressure. Like W he was just a C student. W’s sat scores for getting into college were also revealed.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/08/politics/08kerry.html
Gore’s sat scores were also published and I assume his grades as well.
So in lieu of these facts I patiently await your explanation as to how and why was acceptable for W, Gore, and Kerry to release transcripts of grades and sat scores but how it is suddenly unfair and allegedly racist as you implied to ask Obama to do the same. Explain this unfairness given the FACTS sir. This should be interesting.
Paul
May 29th, 2012
3:59 pm
Scout – Thulsa
“Bottom line is folks vote with their feet. And that census trend of people voting with their feet shows red states generally gaining populations while blue states are bleeding populations. Just another uncomfortable truth for the Dems.”
Do you happen to have any cites that the reason most leave is because of taxes? Think it might have anything to do with the graying population and people retiring and moving to warm climates, as they are no longer too keen on shoveling snow?
josef
May 29th, 2012
4:00 pm
“Everyone makes mistakes, and no one peron knows everything.’
But I betcha Evita does…
***********
IMAM
But some of us can still engage ourselves in dialogue under different handles… ? But namejacking, imaou, IS one calling for more than just a temporary fatwah…
Paul
May 29th, 2012
4:01 pm
Got back from my trip and gas was down again.
What is it cons and Fox say? Oh yeah: “Thanks, President Obama!”
He makes gas prices go up, he makes gas prices go down. He’s one talented guy.
JamVet
May 29th, 2012
4:01 pm
Dick Cheney rules!!!
Well I wouldn’t want you to feel all bad about not being namejacked. Doomy.
Adam
May 29th, 2012
4:01 pm
mm: Again, the cons will do anything to divert attention away froms the Jobs, Jobs, Jobs they haven’t created as promised in 2010.
Jobs have been created. So I am surprised they have not tried to spin that positive message in their favor, instead preferring to pretend there are no jobs still.
Gordon
May 29th, 2012
4:02 pm
JHM@3:02,
Sounds reasonable at first glance. The only caution I can see is that the definition of “national emergency” would need to be defined. Politicians have a way of saying just about anything is an emergency if it suits their needs.
Recon 0311 2533
May 29th, 2012
4:03 pm
It appears that some of the reality challenged lib’s on here don’t seem to understand that Obama isn’t running against Bush or Ronald Reagan he’ll be running to get a second presidential term against Romney as his challenger. That means that he’ll need to run on his own record and not run from it by campaigning against previous Republican administrations. Remember that the blame Bush strategy ended in a ’shellacking” for Democrats in 010. Of course they say that the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing thinking that doing the same thing will achieve different results.
Common Sense
May 29th, 2012
4:04 pm
Not this dead horse again? How do you reconcile this need to raise the debt ceiling yet again with the most frugal president in decades?
JamVet
May 29th, 2012
4:04 pm
Paul,
It doesn’t explain the mass loss of population, jobs, and businesses from California. Meanwhile Texas continues to grow. California is as blue a state as there is an it is hemorraghing jobs and people despite built in advantages of climate, access to the sea, etc.
JamVet
May 29th, 2012
4:04 pm
When is Mitt going to release his last twelve years of tax records?
What exactly is he trying to hide>
Maybe a lifetime of tax dodging in Switzerland and the Caymans?
And why is this pampered millionaire paying a smaller percentage in federal withholding taxes than you and me?
Joe Hussein Mama
May 29th, 2012
4:04 pm
0311 — “Regarding Bush (or anyone else) I have always said, “Let the chips fall …………” !
“His Air Force Reserve question was never settled one way or the other in spite of Dan Rather’s attempt (which ended his career) to provide false documentation just days before the election.”
Fair enough, thank you for the polite reply.
Do you feel that the resolution of that question (either way) could have influenced your voting decision?
JamVet
May 29th, 2012
4:05 pm
Doomy, namejacking is a fool’s errand…
They BOTH suck
May 29th, 2012
4:05 pm
Paul @ 3:59: good poit
Plus you have the fact of companies changing headquarter locations. Regardless of why a company relocates, if they offer someone a job at the new location, they have to go where it is offered or look for other work.
When UPS moved from New York to Atlanta in the 90s, it doesn’t mean all their employees who voted Democrat now vote Republican because they now work in Sandy Springs. Some may have changed and I am sure some have not
Adam
May 29th, 2012
4:06 pm
Common Sense: How do you reconcile this need to raise the debt ceiling yet again with the most frugal president in decades?
There is no such need this year. The Republicans in the House are MAKING UP the need to start a fight.
Joe Hussein Mama
May 29th, 2012
4:08 pm
Matti — “Maybe those veterans had fought for, (and their buddies had died for) your right to see the world exactly as they do?”
Perhaps; each veteran’s reasons are certainly their own. I wouldn’t presume to guess why another veteran chose to serve (or chose to comply with the draft, as the case may be).
I’m not saying that you’re doing this, but I’ve always been uncomfortable with the notion that veterans are some sort of monolithic opinion or voting bloc. We’re as different as citizens could be.
Adam
May 29th, 2012
4:09 pm
Recon: That means that he’ll need to run on his own record and not run from it by campaigning against previous Republican administrations
Which is why you won’t complain when he runs on:
-Killing Osama
-Wall Street Reform
-Health Care Reform (the parts that benefit you personally, btw)
….right?
Recon 0311 2533
May 29th, 2012
4:11 pm
How can Obama purport to understand the economy and deficit spending when he can’t make change.
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
May 29th, 2012
4:11 pm
Well, I say the godly Republicans ought to keep from raising the debt ceiling so the U.S. of A. will get downgraded again and all the stocks go into the tank—except the beer stocks of course.
That way people will be mad enough at the Muslim Usurper to vote for Mr. Mormon Underpants. It’s about the only way Mr. Underpants will ever get elected. I bet even his own wife don’t like him. If you ask me, he acts Gay—not that there’s anything wrong with that. Mormon and Gay down here in the South is a bad combination. The only combo that’s worse is Atheist and Gay.
Anyhow, I see this billionaire Zuckerburg stiffed another Italian waiter. No tip at all and him with about 16 billion bucks in the bank. He can be a Job Creator and still leave a tip. Heck, poor as I am I always leave a nickle or sometimes a dime at the table when we leave Ryans. It’s just good safe business. Hard to tell what they’d put in that food the next time we went there if we never left any tip at all.
Have a good p.m. everybody.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
May 29th, 2012
4:14 pm
Joe Hussein Mama @ 4:04
It wouldn’t have influenced mine as there were too many other important issues.
However, the public deserved the right to know if he finished his Reserve duty ……. or not.
Thulsa Doom
May 29th, 2012
4:14 pm
JamVet,
With you of course I was just messin round. But Jay does take a serious stand on namejacking and in our little community I think most of us agree its probably the most serious transgression you can do.
Joe Hussein Mama
May 29th, 2012
4:15 pm
0311 — “I was required to pass a Top Secret background investigation with an annual five year update. I expect no less from a president.”
I don’t think Presidents have to go through any kind of background check, do they?
I was tapped for White House Communications Agency, and if I had applied and been accepted, I’d have had to pass a Level 2 Yankee White check. But AFAIK, there’s no clearance process for Presidents, short of getting elected.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yankee_White
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
May 29th, 2012
4:15 pm
Paul @ 3:59
Whatever it takes ………………
!!!
Remember the old adage: “The South will rise again” !!
Jay
May 29th, 2012
4:17 pm
Well, since “conservative onlooker” is Ron Burgundy in yet another guise, no, he won’t be returning tomorrow or any other time, for that matter.
Thulsa Doom
May 29th, 2012
4:17 pm
JamVet,
Ooops. Sorry man. My post at 4:04 to Paul I forgot to change it back to my handle. Just realized it.
They BOTH suck
May 29th, 2012
4:17 pm
Trump just stated on CNN that many people put birth announcements in papers all the time so they can claim that they were born in the US. Mind you he didn’t have any examples…..
That was his answer to being asked, did the birther conspiracy start in 1961 when the announcement of Obama’s birth appeared in two Honolulu newspapers?
This is great. You can’t make this up. Bottom line, Trump knows he gets PR from it, so he will milk this until no one gives him the time of day. Whether he believes it, is another story
hahahahahahaha
Keep up the great work…………. Donald Duck………. I mean Trump
Joe Hussein Mama
May 29th, 2012
4:17 pm
Gordon — “Sounds reasonable at first glance. The only caution I can see is that the definition of “national emergency” would need to be defined. Politicians have a way of saying just about anything is an emergency if it suits their needs.”
My thoughts were something like another major terror attack on the scale of 9/11, an oil embargo against us or a declared war.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
May 29th, 2012
4:18 pm
Joe Hussein Mama:
“I don’t think Presidents have to go through any kind of background check, do they?”
No they don’t and they still obviously get access to the nation’s top secrets.
It’s up to the press to vet them just as well (or better) than a security clearance. However, the press fails at that miserably especially if the candidate is a liberal (in my opinion).
Sarah Gee
May 29th, 2012
4:19 pm
If a debt ceiling standoff is an act of sabotage, then perhaps the president ought to consider restraining spending so that we don’t keep going into debt further and further. When Obama was candidate Obama he said that high deficits were “unamerican”. I suppose that Obama’s endless trillion dollar deficits must be traitorous?
Recon 0311 2533
May 29th, 2012
4:19 pm
Adam,
He does attempt to tout OBL, but have you noticed he doesn’t say much about Wall Street or ObamaCare.
josef
May 29th, 2012
4:20 pm
PAUL, SCOUT
Illegal aliens. Round ‘em up, herd ‘em out back to where they came from.
JamVet
May 29th, 2012
4:20 pm
Doomy, it was in good fun. No harm, no foul.
Over the years, due to our fearless leader and his version of “Homey don’t play that!”, the namenickers here are as rare as a UGA national championship! (And no disrespect intended, but I’m not referring to the sport of tennis!)
Paul
May 29th, 2012
4:20 pm
JamVet
True, too.
Mighta known you’d have a reasonable answer.
Both Suck
Also true. It’s what took my brother from Santa Monica, CA, a few blocks from the beach, to Austin, TX.
This weekend I spoke with a guy in Vegas. Lived most of his life in Calif. One of his friends had a business, employed a few hundred, workmen’s comp was a million a year. Moved to Nevada, it was a hundred grand a year.
What did he do with the saved $900k a year?
Pay employees more?
Nope.
Hire more people?
Nope.
Guy said his friend was more than happy to pocket an extra $900K a year.
So much for the job creators taking tax savings and going on a hiring spree.
jm
May 29th, 2012
4:21 pm
“Well, since “conservative onlooker” is Ron Burgundy in yet another guise, no, he won’t be returning tomorrow or any other time, for that matter.”
Matti
May 29th, 2012
4:21 pm
Joe Mama, I’ve always been uncomfortable with the notion that veterans are some sort of monolithic opinion or voting bloc. We’re as different as citizens could be.
I agree. The irony of the encounter you referenced earlier is rich. Furthermore, I am amazed at how many people swallow the line used by some groups who claim that “the military” or “veterans” support their side or their candidate. I’m like, “Really? You just recently spoke to ALL of them? Wow, your phone bill must be astronomical!”
Soothsayer
May 29th, 2012
4:22 pm
“Well, since “conservative onlooker” is Ron Burgundy in yet another guise, no, he won’t be returning tomorrow or any other time, for that matter.”
Hallelujah! What a creep.
BTW, just saw Bob Dylan get the Medal of Freedom award from Obama. Along with John Glenn, Justice Stevens, Pat Summit (Women’s basketball coach) and others. He looks pretty good for 71 years young.
Rickster
May 29th, 2012
4:22 pm
Jay’s column about Obama being the most frugal president ever has been proven absolutely false:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304707604577426240727922340.html?mod=rss_opinion_main
So why would we believe any of the statistics he uses?
They BOTH suck
May 29th, 2012
4:22 pm
Jam
Low blow to us Dawgs fans, but not much we can say……..
Paul
May 29th, 2012
4:23 pm
Thulsa
Glad that was you. JamVet doesn’t normally jump right in before the poster’s had a chance to answer.
I’m sure there are many reasons. But I am amused at how, with the Right, it’s always because of ‘high taxes.’
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
May 29th, 2012
4:23 pm
Well, I’m against these name jackers. Some of you may recall back when someone jacked my name and my buddy Jim Earl’s and had us writing Gay notes to each other. I say let’s hang them all.
Thomas
May 29th, 2012
4:25 pm
Economist- the CBO- and the media miss an important element- what is an expense and what is an investment. By defintion 300k/job is 270k of waste/expense. Krugman, whoever from Wharton, God him/her self can say print more $ but handing more $ to Congress and the WH is simply providing machine guns to monkeys- the ending is always the same and it is not pretty.
It is inevitable that the WH will need a third stimulus because of what McNasty Bush did.
btw- why isn’t Romney smart enough to say I am not running to be CEO of a private equity firm- I am now running for the WH? Does anyone remember a certain mayor of Atlanta whose main goal was employemnt in Atlanta? Employment is not a goal, it is a fallout of a strong economic platform.
Doggone/GA - 999.999.999.999 (preserving my anonymity)
May 29th, 2012
4:25 pm
“If a debt ceiling standoff is an act of sabotage, then perhaps the president ought to consider restraining spending so that we don’t keep going into debt further and further”
and where is Congress in all this? After all, the President can’t sign any spending bills until Congress passes it.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
May 29th, 2012
4:25 pm
josef:
No need to round them up if we just make it so they “want” to go home.
Paul
May 29th, 2012
4:26 pm
Rickster
Ummm…. no.
Playing along with the WSJ article’s point, didn’t you wonder why they didn’t rerun the numbers, backing out the stim program? Or why they didn’t make the point a third of the ’spending’ was in the form of tax cuts?
Perhaps you’d like to rerun the numbers and tell us how it materially changes the point?
Thulsa Doom
May 29th, 2012
4:26 pm
Paul,
Its some interesting stuff. In the study that Scout cited taxes are the driving force behind NY losing population. the 2nd biggest loser that I can tell in terms of population lost is Taxachussets. I’ve got 2 female friends- one who makes 90 a year, and one who is a software developer making over 150k a year who say they live hear cause they can’t afford to live in Mass. They both could live there if they really wanted to of course but they just don’t want to deal with it. Ironically both are still liberal Dems.
I think NJ is also a heavily taxed state in addition to NY and Mass so its hard to imagine taxes not being part of the driving force behind people gradually fleeing these states.
review of preliminary 2010 Census data by Election Data Services (EDS) points toward a Republican advantage in the 2012 election. The Census Bureau releases their official report in late December.
EDS projections suggest gains by “Red States” such as Texas (+4), Florida (+2), Arizona (+1), Georgia (+1), South Carolina (+1) and Utah (+1). “Swing State” Nevada and “Blue State” Washington also may gain one seat each.
When some states gain, other states must lose. The brunt of the lost seats will occur in Blue States: New York (-2), Illinois (-1), Iowa (-1), Massachusetts (-1), Michigan (-1), New Jersey (-1) and Pennsylvania (-1). Swing States Ohio (-2) and Missouri (-1) are expected to lose seats along with Red State Louisiana (-1).
The net results: Red States +9, Blue States -7 and Swing States -2.
They BOTH suck
May 29th, 2012
4:27 pm
“No need to round them up if we just make it so they “want” to go home.”
Better start dropping a real hammer on those who continue to employ them
Joe Hussein Mama
May 29th, 2012
4:28 pm
Matti — “The irony of the encounter you referenced earlier is rich. Furthermore, I am amazed at how many people swallow the line used by some groups who claim that “the military” or “veterans” support their side or their candidate. I’m like, “Really? You just recently spoke to ALL of them? Wow, your phone bill must be astronomical!”
Some people — on both sides — like to prop up figurative veterans as ‘mascots’ or ’sidekicks’ for their groups or ideas, clearly implying that ALL veterans agree with and support the aims being articulated. This pizzes me off MIGHTILY. It makes me even more angry when chimps like that fellow in Marietta dare to berate a veteran for holding opinions that don’t mesh with what the speaker thinks they OUGHT to be.
Hey. Dude. I did my hitch and EARNED my right to have opinions. So shove the eff off.
That’s what I told him, anyway.
jm
May 29th, 2012
4:29 pm
I can’t wait for the “white male” column that will be coming after the Romney VP pick likely turns out to be a white male.
Of course, if Sanchez, Haley, Rubio, Jindal etc were picked, Jay would also have a fusillade of bad things to say about them. But he’ll ignore that.
JamVet
May 29th, 2012
4:30 pm
Sorry, BOTH.
It is very rare that I poke fun at the dawgs. (Now Auburn, that’s a different matter! Grin.)
Besides, unless my beloved Huskers can figure out a way to
cheatwin their way to another title, I don’t have a lot of room to talk! LOL…Joe Hussein Mama
May 29th, 2012
4:30 pm
Doom — “The net results: Red States +9, Blue States -7 and Swing States -2.”
Don’t you suppose that some of the people moving from blue states to red ones might just take their librul voting habits with them?
They BOTH suck
May 29th, 2012
4:31 pm
Thulsa
Taxes do play a part, especially at the corporate level.
With that said, have you checked out the debt increases that Texas is experiencing. Of course with a population boom, spending for infrastructure must go up, but Texas debt increase especially in terms of percentages is skyrocketing.
Without changes to their current tax structure (which is a draw for business) and spending they will have a day of reckoning that other states are feeling today
They BOTH suck
May 29th, 2012
4:32 pm
Jam
While a low blow, it was the truth
Matti
May 29th, 2012
4:32 pm
josef & Scout,
…. meanwhile, I’m trying to get a legit, (bonded & insured) ‘merican lawn service over here, and DANG… billy bob bubba joe can’t be bothered to submit an estimate (as promised) or return my danged phone calls. See, all these legit local “lawn” companies want to do is dump chemicals on my grass for a big monthly fee. (Hence lots of junk mail, flyers, and unsolicited solicitation calls for a “free chemical analysis.”) Actually cutting back the jungle and keeping it tamed is too sweaty. Not worth it. Can’t be bothered.
Thanks… for nuthin’.
JamVet
May 29th, 2012
4:32 pm
Northerners have always moved in large numbers to south and west. For a variety of reasons. This is not news.
But as long as the blue states continue to be the centers for education, culture and money, the liberals and progressives will be just fine…
jm
May 29th, 2012
4:33 pm
Dem Convention comes after Repub Convention.
Optionality for Obama. Could open door for Hillary if Romney goes “white male”. hmmm
Joe Hussein Mama
May 29th, 2012
4:33 pm
Just for fun:
http://whitehouse.gov1.info/white-house-mess/happyhours.html
Thulsa Doom
May 29th, 2012
4:33 pm
Paul,
I don’t think its all just high taxes but other things such as affordable housing come into play. And from what I’ve read housing is generally much more affordable in red states. In many liberal cities such as NY, San fran which have the toughest rent control laws they also happen to have the highest rents which is quite ironical. You may also note that in many other coastal California cities like Palo Alto, San mateo county, San Jose, Berkeley, etc restrictive housing supply due to liberal laws regarding green space, etc means much less land available for housing and hence skyrocketing housing prices. The losers- young families and people starting out or looking to buy a new home. The winners- folks who already got theirs.
josef
May 29th, 2012
4:34 pm
SCOUT
“No need to round them up if we just make it so they “want” to go home.”
I keep trying, but they just keep coming. But, well, they ARE job creators..
http://www.buy.com/pr/product.aspx?sku=225046818&sellerid=35048858
Jay
May 29th, 2012
4:34 pm
Rick, that link you cite is absolutely bogus on several counts. It mischaracterizes Nutting’s post and the methods that he used to get there.
I stand by my earlier post. I double-checked Nutting’s methods before endorsing them, and he did it the right way.
Furthermore, as Paul suggests, even if you accept this “revised” but faulty math that you suggest, it produces an annual spending growth of some 5 percent for Obama, still well below that of Bush II and Reagan.
In other words, even by the math that YOU propose, Obama is frugal compared to his GOP predecessors.
Thomas
May 29th, 2012
4:35 pm
Actually cutting back the jungle and keeping it tamed is too sweaty. Not worth it. Can’t be bothered
Matti- pave it and allow commuters a right of way access- the Governor will give you a tax credit
OBIWAN
May 29th, 2012
4:36 pm
Oh this is terrible there is no way that we could cut some wasteful spending, maybe have NO raises for any federal workers making over $100,000. Or maybe get rid of some entitlements, God no it is a vast right wing conspiracy to bring down the government. How stupid is the left, balance the budget, I have to every month!
They BOTH suck
May 29th, 2012
4:36 pm
http://www.usdebtclock.org/state-debt-clocks/state-of-california-debt-clock.html
http://www.usdebtclock.org/state-debt-clocks/state-of-texas-debt-clock.html
I don’t live in California so of course I’m not here defending everything their state and local politicians do or do not do, however it is interesting to see the debt clock per each citizen. For all one hears about California, Texas isn’t exactly in great fiscal shape. I will add that an increasing population does provide some what of an offset
235 more days
May 29th, 2012
4:37 pm
Joe Hussein Mama
May 29th, 2012
3:29 pm
Spoken like a true pencil pushing combat infantryman wantabe
You say you are a handicapped vertern, did the service cause your handicap? Was if from mailtary wounds. If so, I am sorry and proud of you, I call you a hero, if not I call you a fake.
Paul
May 29th, 2012
4:37 pm
Thulsa
“Its some interesting stuff. In the study that Scout cited taxes are the driving force behind NY losing population. the 2nd biggest loser that I can tell in terms of population lost is Taxachussets. ”
Oh, it is interesting. Which is why I’d love to dig deeper and see what percentage of those moving out who are in the workforce, paying taxes cite the tax rate, and how many are retirees, moving to warmer climes and citing lower taxes on their retirement pay. If it’s in states like Texas or Florida, one can easily feed into the stereotype of the well-to-do retiree with no sense of responsibility to others.
I do think (and you’ll appreciate this, given your profession) many people err when they do something as major as make a move based solely on income tax rates. A whole host of publications list states by who takes the largest chunk, and when you factor in property and other taxes, it makes for some interesting changes.
Thulsa Doom
May 29th, 2012
4:39 pm
“Don’t you suppose that some of the people moving from blue states to red ones might just take their librul voting habits with them?”
Naw man. The fact that they are smart enough to be leaving the desolation of blue state economies shows us that they cons.
Thomas
May 29th, 2012
4:39 pm
If in this “recovery” our economy had grown and generated jobs at the average rate achieved following the 10 previous postwar recessions, GDP per person would be $4,528 higher and 13.7 million more Americans would be working today. …President Ronald Reagan’s policies ignited a recovery so powerful that if it were being repeated today, real per capita GDP would be $5,694 higher than it is now—an extra $22,776 for a family of four. Some 16.9 million more Americans would have jobs
Bookman- stick to local politics for the better of all. You do a damn good job at it.
Jay
May 29th, 2012
4:39 pm
“You may also note that in many other coastal California cities like Palo Alto, San mateo county, San Jose, Berkeley, etc restrictive housing supply due to liberal laws regarding green space, etc means much less land available for housing and hence skyrocketing housing prices. The losers- young families and people starting out or looking to buy a new home. The winners- folks who already got theirs.”
Really, Thulsa? So by your understanding, restrictive zoning laws such as 5-acre minimum lot sizes, minimum square footage and anti-apartment and anti-multi-family restrictions are “liberal” concoctions?
That would sure be news to folks in Cobb and Cherokee, among other places.
josef
May 29th, 2012
4:40 pm
My bad…I thought we were talking about the illegal aliens moving south, didn’t know we were talking about them coming from further south…
Bienvenidos, amigos, take y’all ten to one over the others… Viva Helen Thomas!
jm
May 29th, 2012
4:41 pm
Jay supports the new AA program of reducing beer consumption from 25 to 23 beers a day as being a big accomplishment.
jm
May 29th, 2012
4:42 pm
“So by your understanding, restrictive zoning laws such as 5-acre minimum lot sizes, minimum square footage and anti-apartment and anti-multi-family restrictions are “liberal” concoctions?
That would sure be news to folks in Cobb and Cherokee, among other places.”
Regulation is bad. I agree with Jay. Finally.
Peter
May 29th, 2012
4:43 pm
All the illegal Aliens should move to that GOP state Texas…. You can go to college without proving any type of residence, and pay in state tuition !
Brosephus™ - Fact Assassin
May 29th, 2012
4:45 pm
How do you reconcile this need to raise the debt ceiling yet again with the most frugal president in decades?
If it was good enough to do for Reagan 18 times, I guess Obama’s good for at least 9.
Soothsayer
May 29th, 2012
4:45 pm
Well, now. I exactly ain’t no math wiz, but I see Obama taking this thing by 33 electoral college votes. He has substantial leads in Colorado (9), Iowa (6), New Hampshire (4), Ohio (18), Virginia(13), and Wisconsin (10). What do you see?
Joe Hussein Mama
May 29th, 2012
4:46 pm
Timestamp — “Spoken like a true pencil pushing combat infantryman wantabe”
Aww, is your hiney still sore from last Friday’s spanking? (laughing)
“You say you are a handicapped vertern, did the service cause your handicap? Was if from mailtary wounds. If so, I am sorry and proud of you, I call you a hero, if not I call you a fake.”
I’ve got a DD-214 from the DoD and a disability rating letter from the VA, so whatever *you* call me is unimportant and irrelevant, just like you.
Jay
May 29th, 2012
4:46 pm
“The fact that they are smart enough to be leaving the desolation of blue state economies shows us that they cons.”
Median household incomes, 2010
Georgia: $46,400
Flor: $44,400
Tex: $48,600
Mass: $62,000
NJ: $67,700
NY: $54,100
Cal: $57,700
NJ: $67,700
Thulsa Doom
May 29th, 2012
4:47 pm
Paul,
That’s true. Other factors like real estate taxes come into play and if you are a state that has no state income tax you usually make it up in real estate taxes or sales taxes. But even though from what I can see overall the red states have lower tax burdens. I have comcast as my ISP. Seems like every time I look at their headlines I see something like 10 best states to retire in, 10 worst cities, 10 best cities, 10 brokest cities,etc. Its kinda eye opening but when you look at them for example the 10 best retirement states 8 of them were low cost red states and for folks on fixed income taxes do in fact play a significant role in their economic decisions.
As for snowbirds I see a lot of them every winter when I’m in Gulf shores. Lot of them from Michigan. But they do end up going back to Michigan when winter is over. And people have been moving to and retiring in southern states like Florida for decades now. It doesn’t explain the new net differences in population though. And oddly one of the big population gainers was a northern red state- Idaho. It can get pretty cold in Idaho.
josef
May 29th, 2012
4:48 pm
IMAM
Now, factor into that the cost of living…
They BOTH suck
May 29th, 2012
4:49 pm
JHM @ 4:46
very well said
kitty
May 29th, 2012
4:49 pm
“You may also note that in many other coastal California cities like Palo Alto, San mateo county, San Jose, Berkeley, etc restrictive housing supply due to liberal laws regarding green space, etc means much less land available for housing and hence skyrocketing housing prices. The losers- young families and people starting out or looking to buy a new home. The winners- folks who already got theirs.”
I am originally from the Bay Area. Does Thulsa have any idea that land in those places he noted is very limited by coastal hills? There isn’t a lot of land to sprawl out on as there is here and it makes a better place to live when it isn’t a complete concrete jungle and there is a bit of green space. Having lived there most of my life with the idea to go back as soon as I retire from Hotlanta I understand why real estate is so expensive. Land is limited, not over regulated. Sorry, paradise costs.
Soothsayer
May 29th, 2012
4:51 pm
It’s all just a bunch of liberal propaganda!
josef
May 29th, 2012
4:52 pm
kitty
Can I interest you in a carpetbag?
Jay
May 29th, 2012
4:52 pm
More blue-state “desolation”
Percent of residents living in poverty:
Georgia 18.7
Texas 18.4
Calif. 16.3
Flor. 16
Mass: 10.6
NJ: 10.7
Thulsa Doom
May 29th, 2012
4:54 pm
Jay,
Nice. And can you broke down the after tax incomes of those respective states, their unemployment rates, etc. I believe it would paint a whole different story or trend as to what is going on. And lets not kid ourselves sir. Those states have had enormous economic head starts and advantages going back to Colonial days. Mass may be slowly wittling away built in advantages that its had over several hundred years such as having Harvard, Yale, MIT, and other prestigious schools there since the founding of the country. But it still has those advantages just as NY has had the built in advantage of being a main seaport and the financial capital of the U.S. if not the world for decades and decades. Its not as if these were advantages built by the Dems in recent decades of Dem control. And I think you know that.
josef
May 29th, 2012
4:55 pm
JAY
Where are Mississippi and Alabama in that list? Seriously…goes back to earlier silliness today…
235 more days
May 29th, 2012
4:56 pm
Joe Hussein Mama
May 29th, 2012
4:46 pm
I’ve got a DD-214 from the DoD and a disability rating letter from the VA, so whatever *you* call me is unimportant and irrelevant, just like you.
I have those also, but I wasn’t wounded in action, sorta like you I guess……….what a disgusting revelation
kitty
May 29th, 2012
4:56 pm
Ha ha, josef…a job is a job even if it ain’t at home. Atlanta isn’t a bad place, just too darn hot for my west coast blood.
JamVet
May 29th, 2012
4:58 pm
Sorry, paradise costs.
No kidding! And the perfect example is Hawaii.
If you think La Jolla is pricey, try Kauai!
In San Diego county I might be able to afford a shed.
In Princeville, I couldn’t afford a mailbox!
Joe Hussein Mama
May 29th, 2012
4:59 pm
timestamp — “I have those also, but I wasn’t wounded in action, sorta like you I guess……….what a disgusting revelation”
If you want to know anything about me, you’re not going to convince me to give it up by acting like a jackass, being insulting and demanding I answer your rude questions by threatening me.
If you’re going to act like a schoolyard bully, then I’m going to treat you like one. OTOH, if you want to be treated like an adult, then act like one — assuming you know how.
Jay
May 29th, 2012
4:59 pm
Unemployment rates are relatively easy to acquire, Thulsa:
Ga: 8.9
Cal. 10.9
Flor. 8.7
Mass: 6.3
NJ: 9.1
NY: 8.5
Tex 6.9
A mixed bag, in other words. The 10 states with the highest jobless rates and the 10 states with the lowest also include a roughly even number of red and blue states.
Orange 12
May 29th, 2012
5:00 pm
Okay. Fine, if you have the money to pay it back comfortably. The last time I looked we were at 16T in debt. Can we comfortably pay that back? Can we tack on another 1.2T and comfortably pay that back? The answer is obvious.
Soothsayer
May 29th, 2012
5:00 pm
You are what you eat!
josef
May 29th, 2012
5:00 pm
kitty
Well, truth be told, I’m shopping for a cotton sack anyway…Atlanta’s just too big for me…it’s looking more and more like back down to the bayou country…just give me a tarpaper shotgun with a tin roof…oh, and at least a window unit!
Thulsa Doom
May 29th, 2012
5:00 pm
More blue-state “desolation”
Percent of residents living in poverty:
Is this another misleading stat? Because we all know that federal guidelines may not take into account cost of living and that poverty is relative.
For example if $12,000 is the federal threshold of poverty there are going to be a lot more people making that level in the deep south where the cost of living is substantially lower. But in NY city you could be making only $12 an hour and be much poorer in relative terms than someone making $10 an hour in say Mississippi.
stevie ray....Clowns to the Left of me Jokers to the Right...here I am...
May 29th, 2012
5:02 pm
JAY,
Exactly when do we stop borrowing money to support a collective lifestyle we can’t afford. Anybody know the cost per taxpayer of the existing debt? Absurd that we have to borrow more money, continue to live beyond our means to improve our credit rating…what is a good debt number? 15 trillion, 25 trillion…if he gets a second term, what sort of debt will he bestow upon us….remember, his legacy will be the most impacted….you never hear of prior presidents blaming congress for their own lack of leadership…
josef
May 29th, 2012
5:04 pm
THULSA
That was sort of my point, too…Mississippi and Alabama have two of the highest owner-occupancy rates in the country. And you can grow enough greens to eat in the backyard…can’t get much of a crop from a windowbox (except in Toledo
)
Doggone/GA - 999.999.999.999 (preserving my anonymity)
May 29th, 2012
5:05 pm
“Exactly when do we stop borrowing money to support a collective lifestyle we can’t afford”
Easy: when Congress stops passing spending bills that are too big, and stops refusing to pass tax bills to raise taxes to pay off that debt.