The bait-and-switch tactic driving Georgia’s education debate
The school-choice and voucher movement has long tried to sell itself to the public as a public-spirited crusade to allow low-income, often minority and inner-city students to escape bad public schools.
However, critics of the movement have long suspected that it was something else entirely. They have argued that the movement was actually an ill-disguised scam to divert public taxpayer money to private schools that serve a middle-class clientele, with the plight of poor students being used as a cynical cover.
Sadly, there is overwhelming evidence that in Georgia, the second interpretation is the correct interpretation.
The biggest success of the school-choice movement in Georgia came in 2008, when the state Legislature passed a “scholarship program” supposedly intended to help lower-income students attend private schools. Under the law, individuals and corporations who donate to a “student scholarship organization” can receive a dollar-for-dollar credit against their state taxes. In other words, if you donate $2,000 to a SSO, you can deduct $2,000 directly from your Georgia tax bill.
The SSO is then supposed to use those contributions to help defray tuition for low-income students. But in most cases, that’s not how it works. Instead, affluent families and relatives of private-school students are donating money under the guise that it will be used for “scholarships,” and are getting a dollar-for-dollar tax reduction on that donation. They then collect the scholarship that they funded in the form of lower tuition. It operates as a direct taxpayer subsidy of private schools.
For example, today’s New York Times reports on how the Georgia law was explained to parents attending a meeting last year at Gwinnett Christian Academy:
“A very small percentage of that money will be set aside for a needs-based scholarship fund,” Wyatt Bozeman, an administrator at the school near Atlanta, said during an informational session. “The rest of the money will be channeled to the family that raised it.”
A handout circulated at the meeting instructed families to donate, qualify for a tax credit and then apply for a scholarship for their own children, many of whom were already attending the school.
“If a student has friends, relatives or even corporations that pay Georgia income tax, all of those people can make a donation to that child’s school,” added an official with a scholarship group working with the school.
The exchange at Gwinnett Christian Academy, a recording of which was obtained by The New York Times, is just one example of how scholarship programs have been twisted to benefit private schools at the expense of the neediest children….
Most of the private schools are religious. Nearly a quarter of the participating schools in Georgia require families to make a profession of religious faith, according to their Web sites. Many of those schools adhere to a fundamentalist brand of Christianity. A commonly used sixth-grade science text retells the creation story contained in Genesis, omitting any other explanation. An economics book used in some high schools holds that the Antichrist — a world ruler predicted in the New Testament — will one day control what is bought and sold.
Is this an example of a well-intended law that has unfortunately gone awry? No, it is not. Despite what they have claimed publicly, it is a law that is working precisely as its supporters intended. Furthermore, in funneling state tax dollars to private and often religious-based institutions, it is in violation of the Georgia constitution, which states that “no money shall ever be taken from the public treasury, directly or indirectly, in aid of any church, sect, cult, or religious denomination or of any sectarian institution.”
The charge that the law is being used precisely as intended may seem harsh, but the comparison with a similar program in neighboring Florida is telling. In Florida, only students from families that are at or below 185 percent of the poverty line may receive scholarships. Georgia law contains no income limit on recipients.
Florida law requires that private schools receiving significant tax-derived scholarship money report the performance of its students on standardized tests. Georgia law has no such requirement, and there is no accountability for the education that state tax dollars are providing.
Florida also requires that private schools benefiting from such programs release demographic information about students receiving the scholarships. Georgia schools are not required to collect or report such data.
These and other problems with the Georgia law are laid out in a well-researched, comprehensive report by the Atlanta-based Southern Education Foundation. Initially, the SEF was intrigued by the new law, which seemed to mesh nicely with its own mission of supporting “creative solutions to ensure fairness and excellence in education for low-income students from preschool through higher education.”
However, as SEF officials looked more closely at the law and how it operates, they discovered that it was not working at all as its proponents had claimed:
“(The program) lacks transparency regarding contributors, beneficiaries, and the criteria by which scholarships are awarded or even the size and number of scholarships awarded. Nor do the schools involved appear to be subject to any accountability regarding the academic standards in force or academic outcomes of their students. There are no income limits for eligibility and, in the absence of a mandate to report demographic information on participating students, it is difficult to see how the program is meeting its stated policy objective of increasing the affordability of private schools for low income families.”
In fact, rather than serve as a lifeline for poor minority students seeking to escape bad public schools, the SEF report found that “it appears from available sources that the Georgia tax credit scholarships have done little more than support white students to attend schools that already have extreme racial isolation.”
The lack of accountability consciously built into the bill has had other consequences as well. For example, the AJC reported earlier this year that three people running a private scholarship fund in Cumming are being paid $175,600 each to administer the money flowing through that supposedly charitable organization. Those salaries are in effect being paid with taxpayers’ money that is flowing through those organizations with little or no state oversight, and administrators at other poorly regulated SSOs are also collecting six-figure incomes.
Information about the salaries was obtained through federal tax records, not through state data. In fact, state legislators have made it a criminal offense for anyone to release a whole range of financial and tax data regarding the state scholarship program, the organizations that administer them or the schools that receive the money.
The cynicism and deception involved in passing and implementing the Georgia scholarship program is impressive. It also serves as a warning sign regarding a proposed constitutional amendment that will go before the voters in November that would strip local school districts of the power to control the creation of charter schools.
The proposed amendment is being pushed by the same groups and politicians who pushed the scholarship legislation, using similar arguments about trying to help those trapped in underperforming schools. Their track record suggests that their concern is insincere, and that their larger goal is to undermine public education by diverting public dollars to finance schools pursuing a private agenda.
– Jay Bookman
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488 comments Add your comment
They BOTH suck
May 22nd, 2012
2:13 pm
PJ
So true. Not sure what the rates are now, but I read an article 10 or more years ago (I believe it was in the AJC) that several counties in North GA had drop out rates as high or higher than the APS
saywhat?
May 22nd, 2012
2:13 pm
“There are alot of needy kids in the mountains and trailer parks as well. Don’t forget about them.”
I will be sure to think of them when I use state tax dollars to vacation for a week at Rehoboth Beach in Delaware, or when I go see the Roy Lichtenstein exhibit in Chivago this summer.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
May 22nd, 2012
2:13 pm
I saw that story and the pic that went with it. She’s not hot.
That thought occurred to me also. Evidently the shop owners’ wives thought differently.
Thulsa Doom
May 22nd, 2012
2:14 pm
Fred,
Damn that was a funny link Kam posted. But I didn’t think that girl was that hot. She was ok but on a scale of 1-10 probably a 6 or 7 at best.
saywhat?
May 22nd, 2012
2:14 pm
Chivago is very near to Chicago, practically right on top of it, in case anybody was wondering.
Mary Elizabeth
May 22nd, 2012
2:15 pm
“The proposed amendment is being pushed by the same groups and politicians who pushed the scholarship legislation, using similar arguments about trying to help those trapped in underperforming schools. Their track record suggests that their concern is insincere, and that their larger goal is to undermine public education by diverting public dollars to finance schools pursuing a private agenda.”
=================================================
Your words above are correct, in my opinion, and your entire article is spot on. Thank you for it.
Public schools must not be dismantled. They can be improved from within. Many public schools are excellent. Propaganda against public schools has been spread by those with a private school agenda. The unscrupulous disclosure in the article above reeks of a society that is filled with deception, greed, and “looking after number one.” No wonder Jefferson was a strong advocate for public schools. The kind of America that these private school advocates are creating is the antithesis of the America of Thomas Jefferson’s egalitarian vision.
Becky
May 22nd, 2012
2:16 pm
TBG-thanks? If I were to call you stupid, foolish, etc. would that be name calling? and to stick my wealth envy up my a$$. Apparently I consider name calling something entirely different than you and others here. No big deal. Fred isn’t worth my time and his views certainly aren’t.
Mick
May 22nd, 2012
2:17 pm
doom
Well, your sister is on the front lines and see’s it all. Another obstacle? Our entertainment culture. I visited a class of ninth graders recently and I asked these two questions:
How many of you think that you will be rich one day?
Almost all of their hands shot up.
How many of you think that not only will you be rich but famous also?
Almost all of their hands shot up.
What will you do to get there? Rap star, athlete, movie star, tv star etc. etc.
I told them that they need to have a plan b, because statistically only 5% actually become wealthy. It’s not impossible, this is america, but have a plan for your future. Doomy’s sister is an unsong hero in the battlefield of modern education!!!
They BOTH suck
May 22nd, 2012
2:17 pm
TD
Back in the day, we called her a “closing time” chick……
That Black Guy
May 22nd, 2012
2:18 pm
Peter
May 22nd, 2012
1:28 pm
The religious Republican’s are at it again… saying put all the Queers in a barbed wire enclosure, and drop in food. – Do you have a link, cite, facts or are you LYING!
Imagine how dumb that sounds, never mind how Anti-Christian a statement that is. – Yes, it does sound dumb. Good thing *YOU* are the ONLY one saying it.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
May 22nd, 2012
2:18 pm
Chivago?
Wasn’t he a doctor in Russia that was in love with ;ara?
JohnnyReb
May 22nd, 2012
2:19 pm
I have not had a kid in school since the mid 8o’s, however, I am all for credits where parents decide which school they want their kid to attend and pay from their pocket the difference.
Government run schools would be just like private – all the money would have to come from credits and parents. No separate bump from tax funds.
No restrictions who where you live versus where your kid goes to school. If he/she rides the bus to school, there is a fee just like riding MARTA.
No teacher unions; no tenure. Merit based pay.
That Black Guy
May 22nd, 2012
2:21 pm
RB from Gwinnett
May 22nd, 2012
1:32 pm
Just copy and paste for us Becky. Very simple end to the question. Surely you can do that, right?
________________________________________________
Nope, because it DIDN’T happen.
Becky
May 22nd, 2012
2:21 pm
That Black Guy-I am sorry to tell you there is a “pastor” in NC that is spewing that mess about gays. Be right back with link.
Becky
May 22nd, 2012
2:22 pm
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/pastor-delivers-anti-gay-rant-suggests-building-electric-142753831.html
They BOTH suck
May 22nd, 2012
2:23 pm
TBG @ 2:18
I preacher in NC did say that about gays.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/north-carolina-pastor-calls-death-gays-lesbians-trapping-electric-fence-article-1.1082160
Lets all be glad that he is in the minority………..
That Black Guy
May 22nd, 2012
2:23 pm
TaxPayer
May 22nd, 2012
1:36 pm
Also, a true Christian would not need a tax break to do the proper thing.
_________________________________________________________________________
You know, only God can determine who is a “true Christian” and who is not.
Becky
May 22nd, 2012
2:25 pm
That Black Guy
May 22nd, 2012
2:16 pm
TBG-thanks? If I were to call you stupid, foolish, etc. would that be name calling? and to stick my wealth envy up my a$$. Apparently I consider name calling something entirely different than you and others here. No big deal. Fred isn’t worth my time and his views certainly aren’t.
Now can we drop it?
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
May 22nd, 2012
2:25 pm
Good thing *YOU* are the ONLY one saying it.
Ruh, roh.
As we used to say back in the day, “Now, ain’t your face tight.”
Joe Hussein Mama
May 22nd, 2012
2:25 pm
K’Chak — “Chivago? Wasn’t he a doctor in Russia that was in love with ;ara?”
Well, that’s what my friend Pasternak said.
Thulsa Doom
May 22nd, 2012
2:26 pm
Mick,
Thanks. I’ll tell her that. She do love her kids she do. But the problems that they come to school with are just enormous. Many have no father figures, there’s a lot of sexual abuse, home violence and verbal abuse, lot of social ills etc.
they both suck,
I was trying to think of what that girl looked like but “closing time girl” is very befitting her. Fits the bill perfectly.
Fred,
I appreciated the CNN poop story. Doomy’s always up for a good poop story. Got a better one though. An acquaintance I knew worked as a penny stock hustler at this notorious bucket shop of a brokerage firm for years. Anyway, this broker specialized in losing folks money on crappy penny stocks. He sent a prospectus to one customer whom he had lost money on 4 or 5 different stocks. The customer wiped his ass with the prospectus and sent it back to him. Told the broker he could have his tp back because his charmin worked better.
(ir)Rational
May 22nd, 2012
2:30 pm
Thulsa Doom, TBS, Kam – I don’t know, I was thinking “Butter Face” (but her face).
(ir)Rational
May 22nd, 2012
2:31 pm
Thulsa – You’re right, your poop story is better than the one about the guy from CNN.
Thulsa Doom
May 22nd, 2012
2:33 pm
that black guy, they both suck,
I think that hatemonger just ended his career as a pastor. And I also think he’s probably gay.
Gator Joe
May 22nd, 2012
2:35 pm
If you choose to send your child, or children to private schools fine, just don’t expect or ask for our tax dollars to subsidise or pay for your choice. Do what my wife and I did with our child back in FL (K-12 Catholic, 2006 graduated), pay the tuition for private school, and pay your school taxes. Don’t divert any more funds from an already woefully, if not criminally underfunded public school system.
Most of the voucher proponents could care less about the education of poor children, and are using these children as pawns to achieve their aim, partial or complete subsidies. Also,I suspect most of the voucher proponents wish to exclude their children from children culturally and racially different from the themselves. By the way, our child’s school, though it was Catholic, had children of all races, cultures, and religions and taught
acceptance of those differences.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
May 22nd, 2012
2:35 pm
(ir)Rational
A co-worker from long ago was in a garage band that played a song “Nice legs, But It’s A Shame About Your Face.”
HDB
May 22nd, 2012
2:36 pm
That Black Guy
May 22nd, 2012
2:21 pm
….and the minister is catching it, too!!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/22/charles-l-worley-north-carolina-pastor-gay-rights_n_1536039.html?ref=gay-voices
Charles L. Worley, North Carolina Pastor Who Called For Gays And Lesbians To Be Put In Electrified Pen, Faces Backlash
The North Carolina pastor who called for gays and lesbians to be put in an electrified pen and ultimately killed off is facing a backlash.
After video footage of Pastor Charles L. Worley’s homophobic May 13 sermon went viral, the official website for Providence Road Baptist Church in Maiden, N.C. had been yanked from the web. As The New Civil Rights Movement reports, site reader Rob Roberts was just one of several people to contact StoneWall Consulting Partners, the company who created the site for Worley, after the pastor’s speech hit the blogosphere.
“I asked them if they support genocide against gays and then told them I was ashamed of them,” Roberts is quoted by the site as saying.
The New Civil Rights Movement’s David Badash also noted, “Like all churches, Pastor Worley’s Providence Road Baptist Church doesn’t pay taxes. And by advocating for a specific political candidate he could (and should) lose his tax-exempt status.”
soontobe3rdworld
May 22nd, 2012
2:36 pm
Undermining public education is a key Republican issue. The goal really hasn’t changed from when the first big wave of “religious” schools appeared right after the Civil Rights law was passed. They tried and tried to get vouchers to subsidize their schools (notice that there were many Catholic and Jewish private schools already and those parents didn’t need vouchers). When they finally gave up on outright vouchers, they came up with this p.o.s. bill. Oh, and don’t tell me about how your private school has a few minorities. Sure, there are a few tokens plus the ones that can play offensive tackle. That doesn’t count. The really sad thing is that most of the people who support this stuff think they’re closer to the conservative elite than they are to the people they’re trying to avoid. Believe me, the 1% isn’t going to associate with you and could care less about you or your kids’ education.
Bosch
May 22nd, 2012
2:40 pm
Right on Jay. If you want your kids to go to private school, pay for it your own damn self. This is simply a scheme to divert tax money so that the privledge will have the best education.
Fred ™
May 22nd, 2012
2:40 pm
Becky
May 22nd, 2012
2:16 pm
TBG-thanks? If I were to call you stupid, foolish, etc. would that be name calling? and to stick my wealth envy up my a$$. Apparently I consider name calling something entirely different than you and others here. No big deal. Fred isn’t worth my time and his views certainly aren’t.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What she means is she got her panties in a wad because she misread something, went off on me because she misread and didn’t like getting it back. She sure as hell won’t admit she’s wrong, she lacks the character. So she attacked, called me names, and then moved the goal posts. It’s typical of many posters here, especially the hypocrites. “Becky” has had a bad day and I’m the one she decided to vent it on bless her heart.
That’s cool, I can take it. I’m am strong. I am woman here me roar……….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu4xpDuf84A
godless heathen
May 22nd, 2012
2:40 pm
me Propaganda against public schools has been spread by those with a private school agenda.
Those of us that have been in the working world for any length of time don’t reach the conclusion that the public schools are doing a poor job based on propaganda. The products of the public schools come to us every day and I’m not talking just about underprivileged kids from the “bad” schools, but graduates of the “best” high schools as well. They can’t perform basic math, write or spell. They seem to have no clue about the history of America before the 21st century, and no knowledge of civics or economics.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
May 22nd, 2012
2:41 pm
Hiya, Bosch.
Great game from Munich last Saturday.
Joe Hussein Mama
May 22nd, 2012
2:41 pm
(ir)Rational — “I don’t know, I was thinking “Butter Face”
We have a winner!
Fred ™
May 22nd, 2012
2:43 pm
(ir)Rational
May 22nd, 2012
2:31 pm
Thulsa – You’re right, your poop story is better than the one about the guy from CNN.
++++++++++++++++++++++
Yeah it was lol. Also your Sherman tank convoy was pretty funny too. You are on a roll. Did you sell a particularly crappy policy to a really BROKE old widow or something? :rofl:
(ir)Rational
May 22nd, 2012
2:43 pm
Kam – It sure is a shame about her face. With a decent body like she has, she would easily be an 8-8.5 if she had a cute face.
boo on you!
May 22nd, 2012
2:44 pm
yeah good argument Gator Joe and Bosch, you rich people pay for my kids to go to school too, I’m entitled to your wealth! what garbage!
Erwin's cat
May 22nd, 2012
2:45 pm
If public govt schools were worth a dang, this wouldn’t be an issue. If the private sector does a better job then so be it. A better question might be…”how can we change our public schools to be more efficient and effective as private or charter schools?” What are they doing right that the publics are doing wrong?
Competing for that guaranteed govt money might make public schools actually try to improve themselves and their product, which ultimately benefits everyone. This is not a cash grab from the charters as much as it is a cash hold for the publics….in all these arguments, nobody is talking about what is best for the students
Aquagirl
May 22nd, 2012
2:45 pm
I think that hatemonger just ended his career as a pastor. And I also think he’s probably gay.
Never have lived in North Carolina, have ya? At least you got the second part right.
Joe Hussein Mama
May 22nd, 2012
2:46 pm
On the topic of Catholic schools, do they generally admit all comers, at least from within church member families from within the parish? Or is there some sort of competitive selection process?
And on the topic of financial aid — do such schools tend to be more cost-effective (I guess that’s the expression I’m looking for) in terms of cost to the parents and value/quality of the education received? Also, is financial aid more readily available for needy Catholic families trying to get their kids into parochial schools than say, any family trying to get aid to go to a school like Pace or Westminster?
Perhaps some of our posters who have first-hand experience with this sort of thing can comment knowledgeably on the topic.
(ir)Rational
May 22nd, 2012
2:47 pm
JHM – First time I ever won anything. First off, I want to thank everyone at the Academy. Wait, wrong speech. Thanks you bunch of ingrates.
weetamoe
May 22nd, 2012
2:48 pm
I don’t know how many states have similar programs, but some do. One of my former classmates lives in Arizona and is childless but she designates her state taxes for the scholarship funds there. I can not criticize scholarships. I attended private schools on academic scholarship and two of my kids earned merit finalist college scholarships. To understand why public schools have such horrible reputations (NY teacher *rubber rooms,* NJ teachers screaming death threats at Gov Christie, WI teachers revealing their ignorance on the very protests signs they carried) listen to the audio of that NC teacher.
TaxPayer
May 22nd, 2012
2:50 pm
That Black Guy,
Is it written in any scriptures that one should base one’s giving on what one expects to receive.
Thulsa Doom
May 22nd, 2012
2:51 pm
“Did you sell a particularly crappy policy to a really BROKE old widow or something?”
Yeah. I took down someone’s granny this morning so I’m in a particularly good mood.
irRational,
She had an ok body but I think was probably a bit hefty in the caboose from what I could tell. they both suck said it best- She looks like a closing time girl.
Brosephus™
May 22nd, 2012
2:51 pm
dB: Bros, if you’re chilly, they’re burnin’ another straw man over here.
—————————–
Doom: You’re an old fart.
Takes one to recognize one.
—————————
Fred: Brocephus is still a pup
Appreciate the compliment. Closing in on the big 4-0, but you’d never know by the bald spot and the graying beard.
Also, if Fred’s namecalling, his preferred moniker is asshat. If he hasn’t used that term, he hasn’t called names….
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
May 22nd, 2012
2:51 pm
I think you guys are misunderstanding Pastor Charles L. Worley. That video wasn’t so much a rant as it was an audition tape for a job at The Westboro Baptist Church.
Fred ™
May 22nd, 2012
2:51 pm
Joe Hussein Mama
May 22nd, 2012
2:46 pm
On the topic of Catholic schools, do they generally admit all comers, at least from within church member families from within the parish? Or is there some sort of competitive selection process?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I think it varies. One thing is for certain, they have a reputation for being tough GOOD schools. I’m not catholic but they would be the exception to my general distaste for “religious” schools. Especially the Jesuit Schools.
And look at the Catholic/Jesuit Universities: Notre Dame, Boston College, Georgetown, Loyola (all three) ect……….. all top notch schools.
(ir)Rational
May 22nd, 2012
2:52 pm
Thulsa – Man, don’t you know that fat bottomed girls make the
rockinworld go round?Bosch
May 22nd, 2012
2:52 pm
Kamchak,
Indeed. I’ve been meaning to write you a note of congratulations all week!
boo,
I’ve argued this point on this blog for years. Go suck on it. These schemes brought on by the GOP are nothing but their hypocritical attempts to scheme tax money away from public schools for their own edification.
Becky
May 22nd, 2012
2:52 pm
So that sleaze bucket Paterno’s widow to receive 14 million from that loser’s pension. You just can’t make this stuff up.
That Black Guy
May 22nd, 2012
2:52 pm
Mick
May 22nd, 2012
2:01 pm
doom
I guess I’m bucking the trend; in the best shape of my life, got the abs back and all, been working out very methodically since january. the single most important thing? Diet. Yes, it all comes to to a very simple philosophy – eat to live not live to eat. All the snacking, fast foods, junk foods need to go then..voila…all your old clothes will fit again. Plus, I don’t want to rack up sky high medicare bills because poor old jm needs a break from us greedy seniors…
_________________________________
Mick, if you don’t mind me asking, how old are you?
Fred ™
May 22nd, 2012
2:53 pm
Also, if Fred’s namecalling, his preferred moniker is asshat. If he hasn’t used that term, he hasn’t called names….
I’m trying to repent and change my evil ways.
TaxPayer
May 22nd, 2012
2:53 pm
If the private sector does a better job then so be it.
I believe one of the numerous issues Jay has highlighted is the lack of accountability including test performance as is required in public schools. I’d say it’s pretty easy to meet or exceed non-existent criteria.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
May 22nd, 2012
2:53 pm
To understand why public schools have such horrible reputations…
…just you try dealing with the parents of the little hellions that attend public schools.
Brosephus™
May 22nd, 2012
2:54 pm
EC: …”how can we change our public schools to be more efficient and effective as private or charter schools?” What are they doing right that the publics are doing wrong?
The primary answer, in my opinion, is staring you right in the face. What is the difference between the two?? Politicians have not effed up private or charter schools. They are free from political tinkering. If you want to straighten out public schools, let the educators run it and kick the damned politicians and their lobbyists out.
Fred ™
May 22nd, 2012
2:55 pm
Competing for that guaranteed govt money might make public schools actually try to improve themselves and their product, which ultimately benefits everyone.
Really? You think? Tell me how that has worked out with the “for profit” universities scams?
(ir)Rational
May 22nd, 2012
2:55 pm
Closing in on the big 4-0
And y’all thinkin he’s still a “pup.”
Bosch
May 22nd, 2012
2:56 pm
And spare me the “throwing money at public schools” load of garbage. Hell, I WISH they’d throw money at the schools instead of choking them to death and then bitching how they don’t work.
Thomas
May 22nd, 2012
2:56 pm
If you want your kids to go to private school, pay for it your own damn self.
Great answer. Kind of a Hannity response to the world- I was a poor white Italian who made it on my own. You- you little snot nosed 7 year old- you are going to school where the teachers and administrators cheat, the drop out rate is excessive, and survival is the main goal. You go succeed though. When you drop out- join the army and get shot- that is your own damn fault.
Thulsa Doom
May 22nd, 2012
2:56 pm
Aquagirl,
Are you suggesting a good number of North Carolinians would agree with that pastor? I’m sure most people can reasonably exercise just a modicum of common sense and understand a message of hate when they see it and that his comments are way outside of the mainstream. But at least he deflects from the usual jokes about Alabama or Mississippi.
(ir)Rational
May 22nd, 2012
2:57 pm
Fred – Why would you stop calling people asshats? If the asshat fits, they should wear it.
243 more days
May 22nd, 2012
2:57 pm
Mick
May 22nd, 2012
1:29 pm
Well said, if the majority of parents gave a crap, it would make a BIG difference.
Peter
May 22nd, 2012
1:28 pm
Care to add a link or something to prove your statement, or are you just another flyby liberal with a big mouth. .
They BOTH suck
May 22nd, 2012
2:57 pm
Becky
Paterno wasn’t charged with anything. I would have to say that I personally believe he chose to ignore a horrific situation for the betterment of the school and himself, but that is my speculation.
Doggone/GA
May 22nd, 2012
2:57 pm
“Is it written in any scriptures that one should base one’s giving on what one expects to receive”
Is it written in any scriptures that you should not give if you are going to get something back?
Brosephus™
May 22nd, 2012
2:58 pm
Fred
Don’t go changing your ways, I love that caustic outlook on life. You give me more laughs here than most anybody else.
—————————-
(ir)Rational
That’s because most posters here were on a first name basis with Ramses and Moses.
(ir)Rational
May 22nd, 2012
2:58 pm
I think if we take some of that money that we’re cutting from teachers, and instead cut it from administrative support staff, we would probably be getting better product for out money.
Joe Hussein Mama
May 22nd, 2012
2:59 pm
Fred — “I think it varies. One thing is for certain, they have a reputation for being tough GOOD schools. I’m not catholic but they would be the exception to my general distaste for “religious” schools. Especially the Jesuit Schools.”
This has been my understanding, too. My wife has gotten to know a lady at her job who was a Katrina evacuee, and though she is not Catholic, she sent her kids to parochial school in NOLA. I presume the parochial schools had qualities preferable to the local public schools.
Your opinion of Catholic schools seems to mirror my own; I’ve heard Jesuit schools can be pretty intense, but of course I have no first-hand knowledge of that.
“And look at the Catholic/Jesuit Universities: Notre Dame, Boston College, Georgetown, Loyola (all three) ect……….. all top notch schools.”
No doubt. And all have well-deserved reputations for scholarship.
Fred ™
May 22nd, 2012
2:59 pm
I think you guys are misunderstanding Pastor Charles L. Worley. That video wasn’t so much a rant as it was an audition tape for a job at The Westboro Baptist Church.
Oh hell Kam. That was awesome. Golf Clap:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmjHT5GpAYQ
Thulsa Doom
May 22nd, 2012
2:59 pm
Bosch,
I think we are spending more money on education per capita adjusted for inflation than ever before. And getting worse results. I think Switzerland may be the only nation in the world that spends more per capita on education than we do. I’ll have to double check that but I think that’s accurate.
They BOTH suck
May 22nd, 2012
3:00 pm
TD @ 2:56
I must say I agree. While many pastors and individuals believe that homosexuality is wrong, the majority of those same people are not advocating that all gays be placed in a cage and left to die off.
There is a vast difference in the two
(ir)Rational
May 22nd, 2012
3:00 pm
Bro That’s because most posters here were on a first name basis with Ramses and Moses.
Now that is funny.
Fred ™
May 22nd, 2012
3:01 pm
Thomas
May 22nd, 2012
2:56 pm
If you want your kids to go to private school, pay for it your own damn self.
Great answer. Kind of a Hannity response to the world- I was a poor white Italian who made it on my own. You- you little snot nosed 7 year old- you are going to school where the teachers and administrators cheat, the drop out rate is excessive, and survival is the main goal. You go succeed though. When you drop out- join the army and get shot- that is your own damn fault.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Did you not understand that quote you posted out of context or did you deliberately twist it?
Halftrack
May 22nd, 2012
3:01 pm
the movement was actually an ill-disguised scam to divert public taxpayer money to private schools that serve a middle-class clientele, with the plight of poor students being used as a cynical cover.
The other side of the coin is when Teachers cheat to make the public school look good on the achievement test – - – the poor students and the middle class students are both cheated.
Accountability is always the answer. Competition always makes anything better; therefore both sides need a chance, vouchers & public.
Joe Hussein Mama
May 22nd, 2012
3:01 pm
(ir)Rational — “And y’all thinkin he’s still a “pup.”
Let me put it this way. My wife is several years older than him. And when I married her, my friends and buddies from childhood and college were slapping my back over having snagged myself a wife notably younger than myself.
Verdict: PUP
That Black Guy
May 22nd, 2012
3:01 pm
Becky
May 22nd, 2012
2:16 pm
TBG-thanks? If I were to call you stupid, foolish, etc. would that be name calling? – No. If I said it was stupid and foolish for Obama to trust the republicians, that is not calling Obama stupid and foolish, just his decision.
and to stick my wealth envy up my a$$. – Still not name calling ________________________________________________________________________
Aquagirl
May 22nd, 2012
3:02 pm
Are you suggesting a good number of North Carolinians would agree with that pastor?
Oh yes. I saw that headline earlier today and thought “that’s news?”
Mick
May 22nd, 2012
3:03 pm
that black guy
Remember the neil young song, “Old Man”? When I was 24, I loved the line, “24 and so much more”. Then when I was 34 it was “34 and still a lot more” Now I’m 54 and sing “54 and there’s not much more”. Well, I’m determined to make an attempt for a lot much more…
AngryRedMarsWoman
May 22nd, 2012
3:04 pm
“On the topic of Catholic schools, do they generally admit all comers, at least from within church member families from within the parish? Or is there some sort of competitive selection process?”
I just went through the process with a few schools – some with church affiliation and others without. The process is competitive (very much so in some cases). There are applications, interviews (student and family), admissions tests (either national standardized or school-specific), letters of recommendation from teachers and coaches, etc. Then you wait to see if you have been “chosen” to attend – they send letters and all schools send them at the same time, so those few days are intense. Tuition for the high schools I looked at was pretty much in the $17k-$20k per year range. You can apply for financial aid, but I was told by some people not to do so because it might impact a student’s chances of being “chosen” – given my income level I thought I would not qualify anyway, so I didn’t ask about it. My son will be matriculating at a small non-sectarian private high school in a northern suburb this fall. I was given a small discount for paying in full – tuition was due last month (school starts in August). We also have to buy uniforms and books, pay lab fees, pay for field trips, provide our own transportation, etc., but lunch is included (catered every day, naturally…so my son will eat well as I nosh on my lunch brought from home).
(ir)Rational
May 22nd, 2012
3:04 pm
JHM – So that makes me what? I mean, he is almost (not quite, but it is conceivable) old enough to be my dad. At the very least, he is old enough to be my uncle (the Mrs. has an aunt that turned 40 last year).
Bosch
May 22nd, 2012
3:06 pm
“The other side of the coin is when Teachers cheat to make the public school look good on the achievement test – – – the poor students and the middle class students are both cheated.”
And yes, that would be a problem if it were a national epidemic instead of an isolated incident that people take out of turn and make it into something it’s not.
Matti
May 22nd, 2012
3:06 pm
I’d like to hear the teachers weigh in about where the money goes. My college-student niece is a volunteer tutor at a place downtown. Kids come in with little scraps of paper with their homework assignment written on them. “Where’s your textbook?” Don’t have one. There aren’t enough books for all the kids to have one, so nobody is allowed to take them home. !!???!!
If we are indeed spending enough money on education, but children do not have a copy of their textbook to read at night, then WHERE is the money going? It certainly isn’t being wasted on BOOKS!
TaxPayer
May 22nd, 2012
3:08 pm
In a statement, relayed by msnbc.com, Gipson takes aim at “well-known radical liberal blog” The Huffington Post for a report about his earlier invocation of Leviticus 20:13 and Romans 1:26-28 to express his belief that homosexuality was a sin. The Leviticus verse says men who engage in sexual activities with other men should be put to death.
And yet elsewhere the Bible states thou shalt not murder. It’s gotta be rough being a Christian given so many cases of it being damned if you do and damned if you don’t. It’s just a good thing there are so many interpretations to choose from.
Fred ™
May 22nd, 2012
3:08 pm
(ir)Rational and Brocephus: Actually until later posts, Becky wasn’t BEING an asshat, but she used her wealth envy and attacked me because of the sacrifices I have made to send my child to a great school so I told her to stick THAT up her ass. That’s when she went ballistic and lost all pretense of civility and rational thought.
And after that point there was no reason to identify her as an asshat, she was doing a great job by herself proving it lol. I actually have started to feel sorry for her bless her heart. She worked her way into an indefensible position and just lacks the moral fiber to admit she it. I always feel sorry for folks like that.
Becky
May 22nd, 2012
3:08 pm
That Black Guy-well gosh! I can sleep better tonight knowing I was not involved in any name calling. Thank you so much!!!
Do you feel all better now?
That Black Guy
May 22nd, 2012
3:10 pm
Becky
May 22nd, 2012
2:21 pm
That Black Guy-I am sorry to tell you there is a “pastor” in NC that is spewing that mess about gays. Be right back with link.
_____________________________________________________
I may stand corrected, although, there is no mention of his political position. We can ASSume, but assumptions do not equal fact.
Peadawg
May 22nd, 2012
3:10 pm
http://news.yahoo.com/reid-blames-tea-party-extremism-looming-taxmaggedon-165939327–abc-news-politics.html
“Once Republicans are willing to abandon their commitment to more tax breaks for multi-millionaires and special interests and their plans to end Medicare, I am confident that we can reach an agreement,” Reid wrote. “Unfortunately, it appears that Republicans blind adherence to Tea Party extremism is making it impossible to reach this sort of balanced agreement before the election.”
Can I get an amen?
243 more days
May 22nd, 2012
3:11 pm
What a difference a day makes, Isn’t it wonderful, seeing two liberals exchanging barbs over WEALTH ENVY
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
May 22nd, 2012
3:11 pm
Yellow cards issued in, 3…2…1….
Becky
May 22nd, 2012
3:11 pm
Fred-you will still be laughed at when you attend the PTA meetings. You and your family are just not their kind dearie.
I will remain blissfully happy I am not you.
Have a wonderful evening down at the trailer park.
That Black Guy
May 22nd, 2012
3:12 pm
Becky
May 22nd, 2012
2:25 pm
That Black Guy
May 22nd, 2012
2:16 pm
Now can we drop it?
__________________________________________________________
Dropped like the Lakers last night
Sarah Gee
May 22nd, 2012
3:12 pm
Poor Jay. He can longer defend the idefensible so he attacks motives rather than the issues. It seems the democrats need a murky conspricy to keep their anger boiling. Jay has always been better at that than he has been dealing with real issues. More and more the left strikes me as though they are a man needing viagra to get er done. Without anger, there is not much left of progressivism in America.
(ir)Rational
May 22nd, 2012
3:12 pm
Fred – Yeah, it happens to the best of us from time to time (although, I am not accusing her of being among the best of us). I did it yesterday with TBS, and I think he is still a bit pissed about it. You live and you learn.
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Georgians for Educational Excellence
May 22nd, 2012
3:12 pm
Absent from the debate about the magnitude of funding required to provide high quality opportunities for all students in publicly funded schools in Georgia is a comprehensive system of analyses of each public education entity in our state. Such a system would include financial, personel and student achievement analyses of each school, local system and the GDOE, for starters. Before we have systematic data informing the debate about how effectively and efficiently our publicly funded entities are educating our kids, should we be eager to give them more money?
Becky
May 22nd, 2012
3:12 pm
That Black Guy-what on earth are you talking about political affiliations?
TaxPayer
May 22nd, 2012
3:13 pm
Is it written in any scriptures that you should not give if you are going to get something back?
Do you base your decision on the answer to that one or the question that I posed. If no, then why do we need the tax break.
AngryRedMarsWoman
May 22nd, 2012
3:13 pm
” “Where’s your textbook?” Don’t have one. There aren’t enough books for all the kids to have one, so nobody is allowed to take them home.”
My experience is that the textbooks are supposed to be accessed online for homework while the physical textbooks remain in the classroom for all students to use in class during the school day – at least in middle school, as I recall textbooks being brought home in elementary school. There are times when my teenage son would forget his head if it were not attached to his body, so online textbooks are a definite plus…at least for those of us with computers/iPads and internet access.
That Black Guy
May 22nd, 2012
3:14 pm
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
May 22nd, 2012
2:25 pm
Good thing *YOU* are the ONLY one saying it.
Ruh, roh.
As we used to say back in the day, “Now, ain’t your face tight.” –
Haven’t heard THAT one in years. 
And yes, it’s pretty tight right now.
I was wrong.
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Georgians for Educational Excellence
May 22nd, 2012
3:14 pm
ERROR: Line 4- personnel, not personel.
Thulsa Doom
May 22nd, 2012
3:14 pm
they both suck @3 pm,
You might want to tell aquagirl that. It seems she believes that a good number of North Carolinians consider this pastor’s comments to be acceptable. I’ve been to NC a number of times. Lot of good colleges there – Duke, Wake, UNC, W&L, Elon, and on and on. And the state voted for O last time around. I have a hard time believing that Aquagirl believes that the people of this state would find this pastor’s statements to be a social norm.
Brosephus™
May 22nd, 2012
3:15 pm
Doom @ 2:59
I don’t necessarily agree with the statement that we’re getting worse results. I think it looks that way now because we don’t have the job/career avenues that previous generations had. Think of the number of people who went to work in textile plants and other manufacturing jobs that were low wage/low skill jobs. We don’t have those buffers to absorb those who don’t perform well in school, so they stick out like a sore thumb now.
———————
(ir)Rational
See, I told you… First name basis…
———————
Fred
(ir)Rational
May 22nd, 2012
3:15 pm
Kam – I have to say one thing about that game Saturday. Cech is pretty freaking amazing. Bayern had 43 shots and only one found the back of the net (obviously not including PKs).