States compete to ‘buy’ jobs with taxpayer money

Based on open-record requests, it turns out that state and local taxpayers will cough up as much $210 million in tax incentives and subsidies to lure Baxter International, a major medical products company, to build a plant in Georgia. That’s more than twice the initial public estimate of $80 million.

It also adds up to a tidy $140,000 for each of the 1,500 jobs that the plant is expected to provide. When you figure that at least some of those well-paying jobs will be filled not by Georgians but by people lured here from outside the state, the per-job price tag rises higher still.

Nonetheless, economic-development officials insist that it’s a good deal, especially since the Baxter plant could bring other health-science firms to the region.

But let’s think about it for a moment. The state of Georgia and local governments are struggling financially, slashing budgets, laying off teachers and police officers and cutting government services. Nonetheless, they’ve agreed to come up with $210 million in incentives and subsidies for Baxter.

And Baxter International, the Fortune 500 company that will be receiving those incentives? In the first three months of 2012, Baxter recorded a profit of $588 million on behalf of its shareholders.

You can’t blame Baxter for making the sweetest deal it can find. And state economic development officials don’t believe they have a real option either. As they point out, if Georgia didn’t make the deal, another state would have eager to do so. They’re forced to play a game in which the deck is stacked badly against them.

Baxter International, in other words, is acting rationally. State and local officials are also acting rationally. But they’re all acting rationally within a deeply irrational system in which private corporations have all the advantages.

And of course, it’s not just Baxter. We still don’t know what the final deal will look like, but it seems likely that hundreds of millions of dollars in tax revenue, as well as other incentives and subsidies, will be used to build a brand new stadium for the Atlanta Falcons, replacing an existing stadium that still has years of productive life ahead. Nice as it is, the Georgia Dome just isn’t as big and shiny as the toys that other franchise owners enjoy.

Study after study demonstrates that stadium deals are bad investments for state and local governments, while they significantly increase the value of the sports franchises for whom the facilities are built. But city after city chooses to make the deal nonetheless.

There’s something inherently wrong about cutting special deals and exempting individual companies from tax laws that affect everyone else. That’s not how laws are supposed to work.

There’s also something potentially corrupting in a system in which politicians are given the authority to hand out hundreds of millions of dollars in tax breaks and special deals. While there’s no hint of impropriety in the Baxter deal, the secrecy in which such deals are made and the amount of money that’s at stake make it inevitable that the system will be abused.

And of course, while these deals grow in size and number, business and industry still insist that they want nothing more from government than to be left alone. And that’s clearly not the case.

– Jay Bookman

217 comments Add your comment

Granny Godzilla - Union Thugette

May 7th, 2012
7:34 am

gwinnett braves stadium anyone?

Paul

May 7th, 2012
7:46 am

$140K per job? Can’t wait to hear the stimulus critics with their “that project cost $N per job!” jump all over this one.

Not.

As far as the stadium, we’ll here the same recycled arguments and not one proponent will bother to check the years’-later analyses of actual job creation and economic benefit from past stadium sales jobs.

Millionaire owners demanding taxpayers pay their business expenses. But hey, it’s a Republican state, so the voters will see that as the natural order of things, to be preserved at all costs.

stands for decibels

May 7th, 2012
7:47 am

while these deals grow in size and number, business and industry still insist that they want nothing more from government than to be left alone.

It’s fiduciary responsibility for these businesses to lie about wanting “less government”, though, isn’t it?

Karl Marx

May 7th, 2012
7:50 am

For once I agree with Mr. Bookman.

Only in Georgia

May 7th, 2012
7:56 am

Jay says,
There’s also something potentially corrupting in a system in which politicians are given the authority to hand out hundreds of millions of dollars in tax breaks and special deals. While there’s no hint of impropriety in the Baxter deal, the secrecy in which such deals are made and the amount of money that’s at stake make it inevitable that the system will be abused.

….and to make matters worse, Georgia DOES NOT have a legitimate “Ethics” committee.

Thomas Heyward Jr

May 7th, 2012
7:56 am

‘And of course, it’s not just Baxter.’
Of course it isn’t.
.
The United States federal earned income tax credit or earned income credit (EITC or EIC) is a refundable tax credit for low- and medium-income individuals and couples, primarily for those who have qualifying children. When the credit exceeds the amount of taxes owed, it results in a tax refund to those who qualify and claim the credit.For a single person or a married couple filing jointly with two children is $5,112, up from $5,036 in 2010.
.
Its all immorally the same.
Its Progressivism.

stands for decibels

May 7th, 2012
7:57 am

see also:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2012/05/06/us/ap-fbn-vikings-stadium.html?_r=1&hp

As the recovering economic Atrios put it, when linking to the above piece:

Socialism!!!!!

The only kind America is good at – the tax poor people to give it to rich a##holes kind.

Amazing how much tax money they can rip off for 8 home games per year.

Are YOU registered to vote in Georgia?

May 7th, 2012
7:57 am

stands for decibels

May 7th, 2012
7:59 am

When the credit exceeds the amount of taxes owed, it results in a tax refund to those who qualify and claim the credit.

Deflection. It’s what’s for breakfast!

Patrick

May 7th, 2012
8:02 am

“Corporate Welfare–it’s What’s For Breakfast”!

Jay

May 7th, 2012
8:03 am

The earned-income tax credit was a Republican idea initiated by Nixon and intended to provide low-income Americans a greater incentive to work (it is available only to those who have a job.)

It was expanded considerably under Reagan, who embraced the notion, and later under both Bushes and Clinton.

But to Heyward, it’s “progressivism”.

Curious

May 7th, 2012
8:05 am

Isn’t this a stimulus with another name?

If we can let GM (as proposed by many) go bankrupt, let Baxter pay their own way.

Adam

May 7th, 2012
8:07 am

But they’re all acting rationally within a deeply irrational system in which private corporations have all the advantages.

I think that about sums it up.

Adam

May 7th, 2012
8:08 am

But to Heyward, it’s “progressivism”.

Like “Forward” is communist? (Even though Nixon used the same slogan?)

Adam

May 7th, 2012
8:09 am

Paul: $140K per job? Can’t wait to hear the stimulus critics with their “that project cost $N per job!” jump all over this one.

Not.

*chortle*

Voter Registration Application for Georgia

May 7th, 2012
8:11 am

If you are serious about voting in the next election, you need to register….

http://sos.georgia.gov/elections/vrinfo.htm

JamVet

May 7th, 2012
8:17 am

WOO HOO!

More and more and more GOP socialism!

Why do these fake conservatives and economic liberals hate the free market and capitalism so much?

Why are they always picking winners and losers?

Why can’t they ever understand that the government can’t do anything right?

Why are they trying to turn this country into a Euroweenie country?

Did I cover most of their demented, “do as I say, not as I do” slogans in there?

Thomas Heyward Jr , any ideas?

Paul

May 7th, 2012
8:20 am

“Its all immorally the same.
Its Progressivism.”

Nixon and Ford.

Heyward’s idea of true progressives.

:roll:

Paul

May 7th, 2012
8:23 am

Tax subsidies to low-income working Americans.

Bad.

Tax subsidies to Fortune 500 companies earning record profits.

Good.

Got it.

Poor Boy from Alabama

May 7th, 2012
8:25 am

In an ideal world, taxpayer subsidies of corporations, sports teams, and other businesses should not occur. We live in a less than ideal world, however, so the real question is whether the Baxter deal makes sense for taxpayers? A couple of back of the envelope calculations say the answer is “Maybe”.

Let’s assume that those 1,500 new Baxter employees have an average compensation package (salary plus benefits) of $50,000. If so, 1,500 new jobs brings $75 million of new wages and benefits in to the state each year, plus any “multiplier” effect Georgia would get from growth in supporting business activity for the new plant. Even if you only assumed a multiplier of 2, that would be another $150 million per year of additional economic benefits And then there’s the additional benefits of the goods and services produced at the facility, improved property values, etc.

To make a long story short, it’s not hard to see how the Baxter deal could make sense for the state of Georgia, both as a stand-alone deal and in terms of other businesses it could lure to the state. Look at what has happened in Alabama since they got the Mercedes plant. Hyundai anyone? Alabamians seem pretty content with the outcomes, despite big incentives to lure both companies to the state.

Without more transparency, all of the above is a SWAG. As JB suggests, the details of the deal need to be made public. Taxpayers deserve to know how their money is being spent. Equally important, officials who make these deals need to be held accountable. Let’s praise them if they make good deals and let’s replace them if they don’t.

Paul

May 7th, 2012
8:27 am

When’s one of our conservative friends going to tell us why it’s government’s right to pick winners and losers?

TaxPayer

May 7th, 2012
8:30 am

Look on the bright side. Baxter brings its own brand of vaseline to the state so now we have competition.

Doggone/GA

May 7th, 2012
8:31 am

“When’s one of our conservative friends going to tell us why it’s government’s right to pick winners and losers”

It’ll be even more fun if they try to twist this one like a pretzel to show how is “isn’t picking winners and losers”

carlosgvv

May 7th, 2012
8:32 am

One of the President’s most influential advisers believes that taxing the wealthy will inhibit their investment in the economy and slow down economic growth.

He has also stopped the expansion of social services for the poor.

The man is Andrew Mellon.

The President is Warren G. Harding – Republican

The year is 1921.

The Republicans have a very long and sorry history of toadying to the rich and cruelty to the poor.

stands for decibels

May 7th, 2012
8:35 am

Nixon and Ford.

Heyward’s idea of true progressives.

I know it’s probably almost a cliche by now, but compared to the weak-tea liberalism of mainstream Democrats circa 2012, Nixon and Ford ARE progressive.

(I don’t really need to point out that Nixon gave us the EPA and wanted employers to be required to provide health insurance to their workers; and that Ford was not only pro-choice but supported the Equal Rights Amendment and oh yeah, appointed Stevens to the SCOTUS, do I?)

JamVet

May 7th, 2012
8:37 am

Given that most of these pie in the sky estimates of X number of employees being hired never materialize, of course it is voodoo economics.

Worse, there aren’t never any negative consequences to the recipient of the socialism – in this case the already very profitable Baxter – should that number be lower.

As I’ve noted before, these guys don’t even need a Marvin Miller of the MLB Player’s Association to get these outrageous give aways…

Baxter spent $10.45 million on lobbying in 2011 and did not paying ANY taxes during 2008–2010, instead getting $66 million in tax rebates, despite making a profit of $926 million.

I presume that means any federal income taxes to Uncle Sam/you and me.

Welcome to the modern day GOP’s perverted form of capitalism…

kayaker 71

May 7th, 2012
8:37 am

140,K/ job? We are talking about revenue that has not even been collected….. potential revenue. it is not like we are paying Baxter or any other company to establish a factory in Georgia. We are giving them incentives so that they will in turn provide employment. Bookman would have us believe that those evil corporations are sapping the very life blood out of your paychecks each month. That’s just like saying, “We can’t pass the Bush tax cuts…. that’s taking away revenue”. Or, “When you don’t raise taxes on the most wealthy, you are depriving the govt of revenue”. What a crock!!

TaxPayer

May 7th, 2012
8:37 am

And besides, how do y’all expect millionaires and billionaires to remain as such if they had to spend what they take. Don’t you folks even care about the wealthiest! No! It’s always me, me, me. Well there’s more to life than just the 99 percent, I tells ya! :lol:

Damn! I keep talking like that and I’ll look just like your typical Republican.

cranky old man

May 7th, 2012
8:38 am

Personally, I think the whole idea of “states” is an anachronism. We should just eliminate this unnecessary layer of government. There would be trade-offs, to be sure, but let’s look at some of the benefits first:

We’d reduce 50 different sets of laws and regulations to one. We’d still have local ordinances for things like zoning and setting speed limits and such. But businesses would not have to adapt their operations to accommodate 50 different sets of labor, environmental, tax, and safety laws. Lawyers, doctors, electricians, plumbers, etc. would be able to work anywhere in the country without having to expend the time and money to become certified in each state where they found work. There would be no state taxes. While some of this revenue would have to be made up by increasing national and/or local taxes, in order to perform many of the functions no longer done by state government, much of it would not.

While our Federal government has its fair share of corruption, State governments are frequently even more corrupt. Unless they are doing something high-profile, controversial, or outrageous, what goes on in state legislatures frequently flies under the radar. Nepotism and cronyism are more common, and bribery to get a sweetheart deal is much cheaper, due to the smaller scale.

Without states, we could also eliminate the Senate. There would be no need to balance the interests of small states and large states. Also, our insane Electoral College and primary system could be eliminated. Why should Iowa and New Hampshire get disproportionate influence in choosing our candidates for president every four years? And, under the current system, every person who votes for a candidate who gets 49% of the vote in a state has their vote essentially invalidated if the other candidate gets 51%. In theory, a candidate could win 100% of the vote in 40 states plus 49% of the vote in the top ten most populated states, and still lose the election, despite having a massive majority of the popular vote.

Adam

May 7th, 2012
8:40 am

In an ideal world, taxpayer subsidies of corporations, sports teams, and other businesses should not occur. We live in a less than ideal world, however,

BRING ON THE EXCUSES

JamVet

May 7th, 2012
8:41 am

“giving them incentives”???

71, how long have you been a communist? (grin)

Adam

May 7th, 2012
8:41 am

We are talking about revenue that has not even been collected….. potential revenue. it is not like we are paying Baxter or any other company to establish a factory in Georgia.

More excuses. It’s the same damn thing you guys rail against when Obama and Democrats do it, and you KNOW IT.

kayaker 71

May 7th, 2012
8:43 am

JamVet, 8:41,

Be careful, young man

JamVet

May 7th, 2012
8:44 am

71, so you’re saying you favor income redistribution?

From your and my pockets to the men who run Baxter?

Why?

Paul

May 7th, 2012
8:46 am

morning, stands for decibels

Thanks for the reality check.

In other words, today’s conservative Republicans are more like the John Birchers of Nixon’s and Ford’s day, eh?

(ir)Rational

May 7th, 2012
8:47 am

I’m looking at both sides of this argument, and it seems like, as Jay pointed out almost a no-win situation. If they hadn’t of offered the incentives to come here, the company would have gone somewhere else, since they did, they’ll be vilified for bringing jobs into the state. Same with the stadium, I don’t agree with using taxpayer money to build a new one, but at the same time, the state and city governments would be vilified if they didn’t build one and the Falcons packed up and went somewhere that would build them a stadium. At the same time, both deals are going to bring loads of new jobs to the communities they’re serving, and will both bring increases in income tax revenues to the state. Playing rationally in an irrational system is a great way to put it.

Paul

May 7th, 2012
8:47 am

Doggone/GA

“it is not like we are paying Baxter or any other company to establish a factory in Georgia. We are giving them incentives”

May I offer you a pretzel for breakfast?

Doggone/GA

May 7th, 2012
8:49 am

“May I offer you a pretzel for breakfast?”

Thank you! Didn’t take long, did it?

Jay

May 7th, 2012
8:50 am

The notion that all this money comes in the form of tax abatements, etc., is incorrect. The package includes a substantial amount of expenditure by state and local governments.

For example, the state will spend $13.8 million on infrastructure at the Baxter site that the company would ordinarily pay itself. It will spend $14 million building an employee-training facility on the Baxter site. It will spend $10.4 million training workers for Baxter. And local taxpayers will spend $6 million building a water-treatment facility for Baxter.

stevie ray..Clowns to the Left and Jokers to the Right..here I am...

May 7th, 2012
8:50 am

JAY,

What is your estimate of how much each job created by Obama’s stimulus costs? Seems a fair question since you supported that one? I recall it was almost twice this amount but I don’t recall the WH issuing a num ber…Am I incorrect?

(ir)Rational

May 7th, 2012
8:51 am

Jay – Where is the Baxter plant going in?

kayaker 71

May 7th, 2012
8:52 am

Adam, 8:41,

So lets quash the Baxter deal. Tell them to go build their factory in Illinois or Texas. We will have the same tax revenue base as before and nothing changes except we won’t have 1,500 new jobs and the potential for a ripple effect that a company like this provides. If you could get over this “evil corporation” paying no state taxes as an incentive to providing much needed jobs, the positives of this deal are evident. Local businesses, eateries, gas stations, retail stores…. all of these benefit with more jobs, along with increased state revenue from collections of state taxes from someone who up to then, was not paying any state income tax due to being unemployed. It’s win win but the liberals just can’t stand it.

stevie ray..Clowns to the Left and Jokers to the Right..here I am...

May 7th, 2012
8:55 am

JAY,

Oh I forgot, nobody can seem to produce W-2 evidence of these “jobs saved” or created…guess we will never know for sure…Regardless, neither $300K, 140K, or 100K of our money is worth a job commitment that can be dashed by the stroke of an executives pen…your tax dollars at work eh?

stevie ray..Clowns to the Left and Jokers to the Right..here I am...

May 7th, 2012
8:56 am

JAY,

Oh I forgot, nobody can seem to produce W-2 evidence of these “jobs saved” or created…guess we will never know for sure…Regardless, neither $300K, 140K, or 100K of our money is worth a job commitment that can be dashed by the stroke of an executives pen…your tax dollars at work eh?

stands for decibels

May 7th, 2012
8:57 am

today’s conservative Republicans are more like the John Birchers

yep, back when the Birchers were considered bat-crap crazy.

here’s another handy reality check for those who complain endlessly about Obama’s alleged big government tendencies…

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/05/big-government-obama.html

Curious

May 7th, 2012
8:58 am

How many Alabamians work at the Kia plant?

Did Alabama provide any incentives?

bob

May 7th, 2012
8:59 am

Lets just be happy that two big employers chose to come to Georgia instead of staying in IL. I wonder what factors were involved when these two companies picked us ? Could it really be true that these employers wanted to get away from IL because IL hammers it’s residents with high taxes and little to show for said high taxes ? Jay, the 13 million for infrastructure was chicken feed, that amount in the stimulus would have paid for about 10 permanent jobs or maybe 20 “saved” jobs.

Common Sense

May 7th, 2012
8:59 am

:he earned-income tax credit was a Republican idea initiated by Nixon and intended to provide low-income Americans a greater incentive to work (it is available only to those who have a job.)

It was expanded considerably under Reagan, who embraced the notion, and later under both Bushes and Clinton.

But to Heyward, it’s “progressivism”.”

This is what happens when “conservatives” try to appease “progressives”. I think you normally call this “Compromise”.

JamVet

May 7th, 2012
8:59 am

“the Falcons packed up and went somewhere”

This state is running massive deficits and the answer is give away hundreds of millions of dollars to HIGHLY profitable, scandal ridden corporations that don’t even need it?

Call me crazy, but I say, good riddance to bad trash and super-wealthy mooches.

Because if this GOP orchestrated socialism is “pro-business”, it is a travesty and the worst kind of capitalism around…

Jay

May 7th, 2012
9:00 am

(ir)Rational, about halfway between ATL and Athens.

JamVet

May 7th, 2012
9:01 am

“Jay, the 13 million for infrastructure was chicken feed”

Then by all means, get some of the GOP’s socialists here in Georgia to lay some of that “chicken feed” on me!

(ir)Rational

May 7th, 2012
9:02 am

Curious – How many people that work in the Kia plant pay taxes in Georgia?

JamVet – I would agree that we should let the Falcons pack up and go, but at the same time, how much tax revenue ect would be lost by letting them go?

JamVet

May 7th, 2012
9:02 am

Oh, that’s right, unlike the banksters and HUGE money parasites, I’m just the right size to fail…

(ir)Rational

May 7th, 2012
9:03 am

JamVet – I would be willing to bet that most, if not all, of us here are in that category.

TaxPayer

May 7th, 2012
9:03 am

So Republicans claim that it is only a win-win if tax dollars are first funneled through a corporation before trickling down to the locals and hence stimulating the economy. :roll: Or perhaps they really mean that tax dollars must first be secretly funneled by a Republican to corporations in order for it to be a legitimate government function. Is that it, kayaker.

kayaker 71

May 7th, 2012
9:04 am

In 2007, according to Wiki, Georgia took in 18,170,913,000 dollars in state tax revenue. When Georgia spends the necessary monies to build the various buildings, water treatment plants, etc needed to lure Baxter to our state, they will have spent about 43 million and change. That 43M represents about .0023665 of our total state input from taxes. And that was in 2007. Think we can afford it?

TaxPayer

May 7th, 2012
9:05 am

how much tax revenue ect would be lost by letting them go?

About as much as you would expect from any decent sized tax cut.

godless heathen

May 7th, 2012
9:07 am

Doesn’t “tax incentive” mean not charging as much in taxes? You can’t count that as lost revenue to the state because if the company doesn’t come here at all, then we don’t get the revenue either.

Must I again remind you that taking less is not giving.

(ir)Rational

May 7th, 2012
9:07 am

kayaker – How much have those tax revenues dropped since then? Not saying it still isn’t essentially just a drop in the bucket, but that was 5 years ago, and the economy hadn’t completely gone in the crapper then.

Curious

May 7th, 2012
9:08 am

Curious – How many people that work in the Kia plant pay taxes in Georgia?

No idea. Don’t even know if Alabama residents working at the Kia plant pay GA income tax; don’t think so. though.

Lot of money flowing to Alabama and I’m asking if Alabama helped out getting the plant to locate in West Point.

(ir)Rational

May 7th, 2012
9:10 am

TaxPayer – Really? I would have guessed it would be a lot more. All the athletes no longer earning their salaries here, lose that tax revenue. Lose the hotel revenue and taxes. Lose the gas taxes that people paid to drive here. All the jobs of the people that work in the stadium. All the revenue lost by the people that provide parking around the stadium. The restaurants that no longer get the revenue from people going to the games. You think that only adds up to the same as a tax cut?

stevie ray..Clowns to the Left and Jokers to the Right..here I am...

May 7th, 2012
9:12 am

Jamvet,

Did you support President Trillions stimulus? I don’t support either just curious since anyone who supported same should think this one’s a deal…and unlike President Trillions deal, we can actually count the jobs created with unambiguous math…thoughts? I’m betting on a shoutdown..

(ir)Rational

May 7th, 2012
9:14 am

Curious – From the quick research I did, it seems that you have to pay taxes in Georgia if you work more than 23 days out of the year here, and get a credit in your home state for what you paid here.

JamVet

May 7th, 2012
9:16 am

On July 2, 2009, Kentucky Attorney General Jack Conway announced a settlement between the state and Baxter Healthcare Corporation, a subsidiary of Baxter International, worth $2 million. The company had been inflating the cost of the intravenous drugs sold to Kentucky Medicaid, at times as much as 1300%.

Great….

Another slap on the wrist and just a minimal cost of doing business for untouchable corporate criminals.

But let’s give away the farm to bring them here!

TaxPayer

May 7th, 2012
9:22 am

irrational,

Republicans want to give the wealthiest more and more tax cuts while spending more and more present and future tax revenues to attract the wealthiest. Tell me how that helps that person working at McDonalds or any of those other jobs brought here by those football players and CEO’s, etc. Oh Yes! They get the luxury of paying for that big stadium. Now tell me why that same tax money going into the local education system doesn’t do as much good for the people that actually paid the taxes. Much like that HOPE scholarship gets recycled to help those that bought the tickets, I suspect.

Look before I leap...

May 7th, 2012
9:24 am

Jay
Baxter is going to be located in Stanton Springs Industrial park out in Covington.
40 miles from Atlanta and 40 miles from Athens.

JKL2

May 7th, 2012
9:25 am

-States compete to ‘buy’ jobs with taxpayer money

obama says,”What?”

It’s a brilliant idea to spend a $1T for the Federal government but rediculous when the state does it. If Gov Deal was black I’d have to call you a racist…

Paul

May 7th, 2012
9:27 am

stevie ray

“Did you support President Trillions stimulus? I don’t support either just curious since anyone who supported same should think this one’s a deal…”

Just to clarify: are you of the group who thinks the stimulus was terrible and the Baxter case is wonderful?

If you were opposed to the stimulus, are you ready to rescind the third of it that was tax cuts?

Ocmulgee Paddler

May 7th, 2012
9:28 am

With all things being equal, it would be nice if the State would, instead of giving incentives to any business, put that revenue towards things that actually make GA more attractive to business, you know, like transportation. It would be revolutionary for businesses to set up shop on their own accord without help from the taxpayers.

But things aren’t equal and some other state would pay them to move there, so Jay is right, its a lose-lose proposition.

UNCLE SAMANTHA

May 7th, 2012
9:29 am

jay believes we shouldn’t lure business to the state……. we should just create more government jobs so that we can raise more tax revenue to create even more government jobs

because government profits are so huge………….. governenment will lift us into high growth

real men of genius

UNCLE SAMANTHA

May 7th, 2012
9:31 am

yes ocmulgee
baxter intl was really waiting on high speed rail and more buses before they really wanted to build a plant……………..

JKL2

May 7th, 2012
9:31 am

Paul- If you were opposed to the stimulus, are you ready to rescind the third of it that was tax cuts?

I thought Warren Buffett et al said “bring it on” Stick it to the evil rich…

Jay

May 7th, 2012
9:32 am

(ir)Rational, every study that I’ve seen says that stadium subsidies are a bad investment for taxpayers. In addition, the days when a franchise such as the Falcons could realistically pack up and go to another city willing to build them a stadium are pretty much over.

Tom Crawford, who writes a newsletter covering the Georgia Capitol, notes that between the Baxter, Kia and Caterpillar deals, state and local governments have offered up to $750 million — three quarters of a billion — in return for an estimated 6,000 direct jobs.

When you consider that we have some 240,000 long-term unemployed in Georgia….

cranky old man

May 7th, 2012
9:32 am

I live in Augusta, on the border with South Carolina. Some of my co-workers live in SC. They have to file two state income tax returns – one for each state. If I understand the system correctly, any money earned in GA is subject to GA income tax. I’m not sure if it’s 100% of what they’d owe if they lived in GA, or if they still pay some to SC also. They don’t pay property taxes to GA, of course, and, since the sales tax is lower in SC, particularly on gas, they tend to do their shopping on the other side of the river. Also, their car tags are SC, so there is no ad valorem (although I understand that might be going away in GA soon anyway).

too little time

May 7th, 2012
9:32 am

Even if all Jay said is true, you have to ask whether this deal is good for GA or not. Would GA have been better off not giving the tax breaks and not getting Baxter/jobs?

Jay evidently believes that this was a bad deal for Georgia. If GA had not ponied up tax/infrastructure breaks, there would be no deal at all, so the fact that Baxter makes a profit is a moot point. A liberal eyes the bottom line of the other entity and decides what would be “fair”, and judges the deal on what would be fair. A realist eyes the whole deal, and decides if GA is coming out ahead on this deal…. and we are. A realist eyes the whole deal, and knows that if GA doesn’t sweeten the deal, then another sate will.

And here is a big does of reality to all of you libs: if Democrats were in control of the state government, they would have made the same deal. Except then you would be crowing about what a great win this is for the state, instead of lamenting the “unfairness” of a profitable company getting tax breaks.

Adam

May 7th, 2012
9:33 am

Cons acting predictably here, saying “hypocrite” instead of noticing that this isn’t a simple case of Stimulus support vs. not supporting this initiative.

Instead, Jay is pointing out how absurd it is to alter the tax code to pick winners and losers – a conservative argument (that, btw, does not at all apply to the stimulus). And yet, because Jay says it, the cons here have to be against it.

UNCLE SAMANTHA

May 7th, 2012
9:34 am

jay
and how many INDIRECT jobs are created around these plants????
and how much money is pumped into the GA economy as a result????

Paul

May 7th, 2012
9:34 am

JKL2

Much of those tax cuts went to middle America.

Adam

May 7th, 2012
9:35 am

I should mention that although conservatives ARGUE that they shouldn’t pick winners and losers through the tax code, they do it ALL THE TIME. THAT is hypocrisy, my friend.

mm

May 7th, 2012
9:35 am

I see Greece and France tossed their austerity wingnut governments out the door. We’ll finish the job here in the US in November.

Adam

May 7th, 2012
9:36 am

and how many INDIRECT jobs are created around these plants????
and how much money is pumped into the GA economy as a result????

My, my! What have we here? Could it be a repeat of the Democratic arguments for stimulus and jobs bills?

lovelyliz

May 7th, 2012
9:36 am

This is what happens when we the voters don’t listen and don’t do the least bit of research. Local governments are still giving Wal-mart every tax break and them some. Taxpayers are funding them, allowing them to keep tax revenue, even when other local businesses go out of business and studies show that Wal-Mart shifts job NOT crearte them

UNCLE SAMANTHA

May 7th, 2012
9:37 am

Adam
watch how Jay will ignore this

Mad Max

May 7th, 2012
9:37 am

:The earned-income tax credit was a Republican idea initiated by Nixon and intended to provide low-income Americans a greater incentive to work (it is available only to those who have a job.)

But the Repubicans wage war on the poor?

Jay

May 7th, 2012
9:37 am

Samantha, seeing you make that argument in those terms is hilarious. The hypocrisy level is off the charts.

You think the Obama stimulus is communism, even though it was intended to be just a temporary program to get us through a temporary emergency, which it did. But you then turn around and argue in favor of permanent and ongoing government subsidies of Big Business?

Laughable. Truly.

Ocmulgee Paddler

May 7th, 2012
9:37 am

Uncle Samantha,

Where did I say anything about high speed rail or more buses?

CJ

May 7th, 2012
9:39 am

Today’s post reinforces my justification for against the T-SPLOST.

Georgia gives special interest tax breaks and subsidies while simultaneously claiming that the State doesn’t have enough money to fund our transportation and educational systems. Then they ask us to tax ourselves in a way that raises taxes on the poor the most to offset these corporates subsidies.

I hope I’m wrong, but most Georgia taxpayers seem to be falling for the scam. I, however, won’t be a part of it.

(ir)Rational

May 7th, 2012
9:41 am

Jay – I don’t know the realities of whether a sports franchise can pick-up and go to another city if they want. I do see it happening occasionally (like the Thrashers) though. I’m not saying it is a good investment, but I am looking at the overall picture, and that picture says, as you pointed out, that there are 240,000 long-term unemployed people in Georgia right now. How many of those are construction workers that are going to be able to get work building the new stadium, and these new plants? How many restaurants around the areas where these buildings are being built are going to see an increase in business from the construction workers buying lunches? There are downsides to everything, but I’m having a hard time seeing this as a huge downside.

UNCLE SAMANTHA

May 7th, 2012
9:42 am

jay
show me anywhere i wrote that STATES obama stimulus is communism……… YOU CAN’T
show me where i argue in favor of ONGOING govt subsidies to big business… YOU CAN’T

you know my point is that GOVT does not make a profit and is not in the business of making a profit………… GOVT is dependent upon business and individuals MAKING A PROFIT

Common Sense

May 7th, 2012
9:42 am

” In addition, the days when a franchise such as the Falcons could realistically pack up and go to another city willing to build them a stadium are pretty much over”

Seriously? You don’t thing there are other cities out there willing to make bad financial decisions on sports teams as well?

Look before I leap...

May 7th, 2012
9:42 am

Jay,

Baxter and the governor are claiming 1 billion in investment over the next 5 years.
But I can’t find a breakdown of that number. Any clue as to what this number includes?

UNCLE SAMANTHA

May 7th, 2012
9:44 am

ocmulgee
you imply if GA just spent more $ on transportation it would attract business………i am just being sarcastic to you claim

godless heathen

May 7th, 2012
9:44 am

There was a psychology study I read about one time where they gave a group of subjects a quarter and another group a dollar for performing the same task. Of course the persons that got the quarter felt that it was unfair. When asked if they would take 20 cents if the other person only got 75 cents, most subjects said they would.

Aquagirl

May 7th, 2012
9:46 am

Jay is pointing out how absurd it is to alter the tax code to pick winners and losers – a conservative argument (that, btw, does not at all apply to the stimulus). And yet, because Jay says it, the cons here have to be against it.

Their mental gymnastics put Cirque du Soleil to shame.

Watching Kayaker go communist does lighten up the dreary morning, though.

ragnar danneskjold

May 7th, 2012
9:48 am

Sounds like our host opposes “Stimulus” now that he has seen how wasteful Obamanomics can be.

TaxPayer

May 7th, 2012
9:49 am

St Simons- island off the coast of New Somalia

May 7th, 2012
9:50 am

Privatize the profits
Socialize the costs
Standard Republican socialism for the rich, feudalism for the rest of you
Its amazing what you can accomplish when you have no conscience.

Jefferson

May 7th, 2012
9:52 am

Deal will not be broke like he was when he was selected. Bribes and theft.

Ocmulgee Paddler

May 7th, 2012
9:53 am

Samantha,

Oh, I understood it was sarcasm. Your point just wasn’t very intelligent. Transportation was just an example of better uses for that money. Have you driven on the interstates around Atlanta? Traffic is pretty awful. If I owned any business that shipped a product or heck say I owned a common-carrier, I would want the roads improved. The longer products sit on that hot GA asphalt means more fuel is consumed. The longer the commute for my employees, the more difficult it will be to attract the best employees to work for me. In the end, it’s less money in my pocket.

Mad Max

May 7th, 2012
9:54 am

We continually ask where are the jobs and when the government goes out and brings in private industry jobs to Ga., the left gets outraged because we are giving big business subsidies, but then they want us to pay for school teachers and firemen in Osh Kosh. The difference is that we in Ga are making the deal and paying the price to do this in Ga, not Wisconsin. The difference is there is long term benefits to bringing jobs to our local economy. If Osh Kosh wants to pay their teachers, that is also a local issue and should be handled locally. That’s why we have different levels of government. And that’s why I don’t support the stimulus/job plans from Obama, because they were not aimed at creating private sector jobs, just paying to continue government sector jobs.

JKL2

May 7th, 2012
9:54 am

paul- Much of those tax cuts went to middle America.

The median income for your liberal utopian new world order is $14.4k per household. Since your tax cuts didn’t effect all those who already pay no federal income tax, none were effected from stimulus. (you just forgot to tell those that fall below the poverty line that they were “evil rich”)

Look before I leap...

May 7th, 2012
9:56 am

“you imply if GA just spent more $ on transportation it would attract business”

Transportation, housing costs, available labor pool and taxes are the 4 biggest items a corporation looks at when deciding to open a new or relocate a site.

So yes, a decent transportation infrastructure is a key ingredient to attracting business.

mm

May 7th, 2012
9:56 am

“you know my point is that GOVT does not make a profit and is not in the business of making a profit”

Wow, finally a true statement from one of the cons. This is exactly why government healthcare would be cheaper, government run prisons are cheaper, and public schools are cheaper.

kayaker 71

May 7th, 2012
9:57 am

So now we have GM owing the American taxpayer 50B and change because the government jumped in and bailed them out. And that’s OK….. “too big to fail”, etc, etc. etc. We also bailed out AIG and numerous other financial icons on Wall Street and that’s all OK too. You know,…. too big to fail. But providing incentives for a corporation to come to GA and provide 1,500 new jobs and all of the positives that go with it is “just not fair”. This ain’t Solyndra or the Chevy Volt, And if things work out positively, this factory is going to be here for years to come, providing job security, health care coverage, 401K plans and those other essentials that good jobs usually provide. Worth every dime.

UNCLE SAMANTHA

May 7th, 2012
9:58 am

ocmulgee
actually your response proves the intelligence of my point. what world do you live in that you actually believe that they sit in a board room and discuss that? tell me what major city in the US that traffic isn’t bad? all business accounts for that……….. give me better examples of better uses of govt money and we can talk.

JKL2

May 7th, 2012
9:59 am

mad max- Osh Kosh

Just for future reference: Chief Osh Kosh was the indian the town was named after, but the name of the city is one word. Oshkosh.

UNCLE SAMANTHA

May 7th, 2012
10:00 am

look before you leap

so Baxter didn’t consider that when they moved here?
have you been to other states?
the roads in GA are a godsend compared to other states

if GA and ATL is so bad for transportation then why does UPS stay HERE??????

Talking Head

May 7th, 2012
10:00 am

“Wow, finally a true statement from one of the cons. This is exactly why government healthcare would be cheaper, government run prisons are cheaper, and public schools are cheaper.”

No doubt, but how would the quality of care be effected? Shopping for clothes at Wal-Mart is cheaper, but the quality of the product isn’t as good if you’re accustomed to shopping for clothes at say Macy’s.

kayaker 71

May 7th, 2012
10:00 am

Just as an aside…… will the new Baxter plant be a union shop?

Adam

May 7th, 2012
10:01 am

you know my point is that GOVT does not make a profit and is not in the business of making a profit………… GOVT is dependent upon business and individuals MAKING A PROFIT

And therefore spending on jobs with tax dollars is ok, even good.

Unless the Democrats do it.

Ocmulgee Paddler

May 7th, 2012
10:02 am

Sam,

Seriously? You think businesses looking to expand don’t discuss the possibilities of where the best place for their locations are, to improve efficency and maximize their profit?

Please tell me you were kidding. Please?

Adam

May 7th, 2012
10:03 am

tell me what major city in the US that traffic isn’t bad?

There’s bad and there’s UGLY. Atlanta traffic is LEGENDARY for being ugly. People who are driving THROUGH the state get clogged up there even when it’s not rush hour.

Joseph

May 7th, 2012
10:04 am

Good news is bad news for you democrats huh Jay? Why are you not trying to defend Obama for drafting a letter that would have blamed the troops if the bin Laden raid had failed… The dem nnational commitee didn’t send you the memo this morning…

Tundra Dude

May 7th, 2012
10:04 am

Poor Boy from Alabama :
it’s not hard to see how the Baxter deal could make sense for the state of Georgia,

It could make sense, or we could get burned if they pack up and move when the tax breaks expire.
That’s what Sleazy Sony did in Carrollton, a while back, leaving 1,500 workers hanging.

http://bit.ly/JX0ehj
The Folly of Southern Hospitality

Dixie leads the way in lavish corporate subsidies.

Look before I leap...

May 7th, 2012
10:07 am

“what world do you live in that you actually believe that they sit in a board room and discuss that”

The real world Samantha.
For two different Fortune 1000 companies, I was the finance manager for corporate services. When it came time to expand or consider new locations for operations we looked very closely at transportation statistics, flew to various areas and timed drives, talked to local and state governments about their long-term transportation plans etc.

The decisions were made in the executive suite however, not the boardroom.

Joseph

May 7th, 2012
10:08 am

By the way if you want to discuss how gubmint distributes tax incentives and subsidies we’ll talk about the stimulus waste of a trillion dollars…

(ir)Rational

May 7th, 2012
10:08 am

Adam – I would contend that a large portion of the non-rush hour traffic is caused by people from out of state. If you know how to drive, it is easy to get around the city most of the time.

Poor Boy from Alabama

May 7th, 2012
10:08 am

Tundra Dude:

Let’s hope that the state of GA put claw back provisions in the deal to ensure that Baxter lives up to their obligations.

kayaker 71

May 7th, 2012
10:09 am

I wonder if the Bookman and the liberals would object to the state subsidizing the coming of Baxter to our state if they lived in say, New Mexico, which is a forced union state. If the actions of the states would support union jobs and participation, there is no doubt that not a peep would have been said about the state “investing” 43M of our taxpayer dollars. That would have been “good business”. Wonder how many new factories have been established in California, New York Illinois and many of the other forced union states as compared to the right to work states like Georgia and Alabama? No wonder California is in the tank.

UNCLE SAMANTHA

May 7th, 2012
10:10 am

ocmulgee
of course its a small part……….. but you act like ATL is the bottom of the heap.

are you arguing that $ to transportation is a major block to business in ATL?

we have Fortune 500 companies moved here………. WHY IS UPS HERE?

spending transportation $ is not the solution

we live in WORLD OF GLOBALIZATION

its these TAX DEALS THAT ATTRACT COMPANIES

they have high initial expenditures to build facilities

tax money lost up front is made up in a later date

Aquagirl

May 7th, 2012
10:11 am

The real world Samantha.

The real world where businesses have decided to spend money supporting the t-splost.

That money didn’t come from the office coffee fund, sam.

Look before I leap...

May 7th, 2012
10:11 am

“if GA and ATL is so bad for transportation then why does UPS stay HERE??????”

There is a big difference between uprooting an existing operation and moving it cross country and where a company decides to expand.

Per your example, the question to ask, over the past 20 years, as UPS has expanded, where did they expand?

Adam

May 7th, 2012
10:12 am

(ir)Rational: I know I certainly drive around it. Any GPS that puts me through Atlanta gets ignored. Or I actually STOP somewhere outside Atlanta and tell it to avoid major roads and tolls.

Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)

May 7th, 2012
10:12 am

Well, I just don’t understand why the state just don’t give about 1,500 people $35,000 for four years or maybe 3,000 people $35,000 for two years. That would take them off of the dole and by the time the money run out the godly Republicans would of got elected and the economy going again and there’d be all kind of jobs. You know, seeing as how the Trickle Down from the Tax Cuts for the Job Creators would of trickled on them.

But that’s just me. Seems to me it will take a long time for all them tax credits to work.

I don’t claim to be no Norman Einstein, but using tax money to pay cos. to come in and hire people from Alabama or Yankeeland strikes me as mighty foolish. Let Alabama or the Yankees pay them.

Have a good Monday all you hungover Cinco de Mayonaise drunks.

UNCLE SAMANTHA

May 7th, 2012
10:16 am

look before you leap

so why is ATL a horrific place to move a business too?
is it our transportation???

why hasn’t coca -cola, ups, delta, the home depot etc LEFT?
why did companines like GE, Newell Rubbermaid decide to move to ATL

give me the cities that are better than ATL for transportation that are taking business away from us

Tundra Dude

May 7th, 2012
10:16 am

courtesy of Jamvet:

On July 2, 2009, Kentucky Attorney General Jack Conway announced a settlement between the state and Baxter Healthcare Corporation, a subsidiary of Baxter International, worth $2 million. The company had been inflating the cost of the intravenous drugs sold to Kentucky Medicaid, at times as much as 1300%.

Oh, great…sounds like the Baxter Mafia. Millions of ill-gotten gains, paid a small fine, and no doubt promised not to get caught again.

Just saying..

May 7th, 2012
10:17 am

The earned-income tax credit was a Republican idea initiated by Nixon and intended to provide low-income Americans a greater incentive to work (it is available only to those who have a job.)

It was expanded considerably under Reagan, who embraced the notion, and later under both Bushes and Clinton.

But to Heyward, it’s “progressivism”.

There you go again, Jay.
Speaking facts to prejudice.

(ir)Rational

May 7th, 2012
10:18 am

Adam – Yeah, I pretty much avoid 285 at all costs, and if I’m going somewhere in the city, I either time my trips accordingly, or take as many back roads as I can. From my experience though, the absolute worst traffic there is, is during the spring breaks for people from points north. Well, and the annual migration of the snow birds.

Adam

May 7th, 2012
10:21 am

give me the cities that are better than ATL for transportation that are taking business away from us

This is an instance in which you have come up with an argument that you are projecting onto someone else, so that you do not have to look up information for which you, alone, are curious abut. Therefore, I have one question and a statement:

Is your Google broken? Do your own research. ;)

Ocmulgee Paddler

May 7th, 2012
10:21 am

Sam,

Georgia only has 14 Fortune 500 Companies. I would venture to say Georgia could have a lot more than that if our infrastructure were better. Obviously with concentrated populations and suburban commuters we will always have traffic, but do we have to be one of the worst?

I couldn’t tell you why UPS stays here. I’m not in their board room. I would venture a guess though its not cost effective for them to move. They have been here for over 20 years.

I can’t answer

Adam

May 7th, 2012
10:22 am

(ir)Rational: Well, and the annual migration of the snow birds.

:lol:

Obama is over

May 7th, 2012
10:23 am

Hmmmm. The State of Georgia generated $2.4 Billion in wages in FY2011 creating over 25,000 jobs because of the Georgia State Film Industry Tax Credit. Not to mention the fees paid for property rental, catering, trucking, and the other support services for movie production. Economic incentives work when handled properly. I think Adam and Jamvet ought to film a promo piece here to protest the GOP war on women. They could get a couple of Democratic icons known for stong support of women and make a commercial. It could feature Obama with his composite girlfriend Julia, John Edwards and Bill Clinton smoking cigars chasing Monica Lewinsky while Sir-Mix-A-Lot’s “Baby Got Back” plays in the background. The caption can read “Thank goodness Julia gets Free birth control.”

Ocmulgee Paddler

May 7th, 2012
10:24 am

Ignore the “I can’t answer” Not sure what happened there. :)

UNCLE SAMANTHA

May 7th, 2012
10:26 am

ADAM
not curious just not buying their argument that GA needs to spend tax $ on transportation to attract new business as opposed to tax deals…………..

look at all the MFG plants built in the SOUTH over the past 15 years…………..

all were as a result of these special tax deals in right-to-work southern states

that is what the attractor is to these companies

weetamoe

May 7th, 2012
10:26 am

I am very satisfied with returns on my Baxter investments. Money given to EIC recipients is taken from payroll taxes meant for social Security and Medicare . Employers who do their own payroll taxes know this. (citation: IRS tax form) It’s sort of like the old robbing Peter to…until hard-working middle class Pete runs out of money. You must know that Obama has issued so many waivers to his laws and regs that he just might turn the US into outlaw territory. Exemptions/waivers…

(ir)Rational

May 7th, 2012
10:27 am

Adam – Hey, those old Canadians in their giant motor homes towing other cars are no fun to drive around.

Jack

May 7th, 2012
10:30 am

If you’re the governor of a state, you get businesses to come into the state anyway you can. If you’re not the governor of a state, it appears some know how to govern the state better than the governor. And that’s not unusual: some employees know how to run a business better than the employer.

JKL2

May 7th, 2012
10:31 am

mm- Wow, finally a true statement from one of the cons. This is exactly why government healthcare would be cheaper, government run prisons are cheaper, and public schools are cheaper.

ROFL!!!!

You left out the part that says “due to bureaucratic inefficiency, nothing the government does is cheaper”.

Adam

May 7th, 2012
10:32 am

all were as a result of these special tax deals in right-to-work southern states

I’m sure you can back up that statement.

DawgDad

May 7th, 2012
10:33 am

“When’s one of our conservative friends going to tell us why it’s government’s right to pick winners and losers?”

Well, I CERTAINLY would not. Call this whatever you want it’s seemingly becoming more difficult by the day to find a major market or intstitution that isn’t in some way subsidized by favorable or protective legislation, regulation, or contract. This plays BOTH sides of the aisle and about all party affiliation has to do with it is determining whether Joe’s buddies get the goodies or Mike’s.

Grants, subsidies, and favorable tax treatment are no stranger to any group in power. If the politicians step over the line, vote them out. When they ask for too much power (T-SPLOST, for example), please exercise your vote for restraint and fiscal sanity.

Ocmulgee Paddler

May 7th, 2012
10:33 am

Samantha- Sure tax deals are a piece of the pie. They always will be. My contention was that I *wish* the system were not set up for it to have to be that way. It’s not very free market..

MiltonMan

May 7th, 2012
10:34 am

Lib logic: The governor is not doing anything to get jobs in this state or the governor is a socialist by picking winner/loser and/or giving tax incentives to bring jobs into this state. Love this dog chasing its tail logic.

Jay, would you have preferred the jobs be in South Carolina, Alabama, etc.?

Libs, since you hate this deal, please make sure that you do not apply for a job at Baxter.

UNCLE SAMANTHA

May 7th, 2012
10:35 am

Boeing received an estimated $900 million in taxpayer-funded incentives from the state of South Carolina in exchange for its decision to locate its new Dreamliner facility in North Charleston. At the federal level, the company has also benefited substantially from federal contracts as well as its relationship with the Obama administration.

According to the NLRB’s complaint, Boeing’s decision to move 30 percent of its Dreamliner production to South Carolina was an attempt to punish the union – even though the company has created more than 2,500 union jobs in Washington State since announcing its intention to open a Lowcountry, S.C. facility.

UNCLE SAMANTHA

May 7th, 2012
10:35 am

ADAM

QUIT BEING LAZY

The Thin Guy

May 7th, 2012
10:35 am

Poor Governor Deal and those rascally Republicans just can’t win. If they didn’t offer incentives for businesses to move here, Bookman would blast them for their failure to lure new companies. Even if they came for nothing and donated a million bucks to the left wing blog daddy at the ajc, he’d complain about having to pay more taxes. Taxes are something libs want other people to pay. Time to wok the dog.

Adam

May 7th, 2012
10:35 am

You left out the part that says “due to bureaucratic inefficiency, nothing the government does is cheaper”.

Fact – the efficiency percentage of government run programs is NOT less efficient than most major corporations. Cite: http://www.psiru.org/reports/2005-10-W-effic.doc

Adam

May 7th, 2012
10:37 am

UNCLE SAMANTHA: So your evidence for the past 15 years being all about plants moving to southern states because of their tax incentives is a plant move that never happened? And you call ME lazy….

UNCLE SAMANTHA

May 7th, 2012
10:37 am

good thing KIA, TOYOTA, NISSAN, HONDA, BMW, MERCEDES, HUYNDAI all built there plants in the US where?

Kramer

May 7th, 2012
10:38 am

“These pretzels are making me thirsty”.

N-GA

May 7th, 2012
10:39 am

Politicians making business decisions………HAH!

JamVet

May 7th, 2012
10:39 am

Privatize the profits
Socialize the costs
Standard Republican socialism for the rich, feudalism for the rest of you
Its amazing what you can accomplish when you have no conscience.

The new and unimproved capitalism – neocon style!

the roads in GA are a godsend compared to other states

Not anymore. Or at least marginally. When I moved here in 1979 they were, but now? Notwithstanding the recent shovel ready paving jobs of Atlanta interstates, the roads in this state have gone down dramatically.

if GA and ATL is so bad for transportation then why does UPS stay HERE??????

Hello, they are a worldwide company of which Georgia deliveries must represent about 0.1%!

Just say no to GOP socialism and MASSIVE corporate welfare.

barking frog

May 7th, 2012
10:41 am

Where will they get water?

Ocmulgee Paddler

May 7th, 2012
10:44 am

Those plants all moved to the South. What is your point? Could it be that they received huge tax incentives? Knew you were going to say that.

My point was that I don’t want the government picking winners and losers on my dime. I said in a perfect world with all things being equal(which obviously we do no live in that world) that governments would provide the necessary infrastructure to entice businesses to move to GA.

That obviously is not the case.

mm

May 7th, 2012
10:45 am

The cons supporting welfare. Who woulda thunk?

JKL2

May 7th, 2012
10:46 am

adam- This evidence points strongly to the conclusion that there is no systematic intrinsic advantage to private sector operation in terms of efficiency. Equally, there is no evidence to assume that a public sector operator is intrinsically less efficient and effective.

A very nice “In theory they are equal” study. Let’s look at the education system in the real world: http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/they-spend-what-real-cost-public-schools

Adam

May 7th, 2012
10:48 am

JKL2: Sorry, but the CATO institute is not the real world at all. It’s a Libertarian think tank and propaganda outfit. Libertarians don’t live in the real world, they live in a dream world of selfishness and austerity.

UNCLE SAMANTHA

May 7th, 2012
10:49 am

adam

you are lazy, its a new plant for additional production and its a DONE DEAL

Old Goober

May 7th, 2012
10:49 am

You left out the part that says “due to bureaucratic inefficiency, nothing the government does is cheaper”.

Administrative overhead on Medicare: 2%
Administrative overhead on private medical insurance policies: 20%

Think again.

Adam

May 7th, 2012
10:51 am

Sorry UNCLE, but you’re the lazy one. You said MOVED. This is an additional plant. T hey are keeping their flagship plant, not MOVING because of tax incentives. Moving means shutting down the old one and keeping the new one, just fyi.

MiltonMan

May 7th, 2012
10:51 am

“Poor Governor Deal and those rascally Republicans just can’t win.”

Except in the voting booth:

Bye-bye Roy Barnes Again!
Bye-bye Carol Porter
Bye-bye Hodges
Bye-bye Jim Marshall
etc.
etc.

JamVet

May 7th, 2012
10:53 am

These fake conservatives go absolutely apoplectic over helping poor women and children, the sick and infirm and the elderly struggling to stay out of poverty, but have zero issues with NEEDLESSLY giving away zillions of dollars every single year to tax-avoiding, freeloading, Uncle Sam bilking corporations, theri army of corrupt lobbyists and the super-wealthy.

In the name of national security, can’t we just come up with some contrived law that would allow us to deport these middle-class destroying Republicans, along with the banksters, to some banana republic where they belong?

No more right wing social engineering and GOP orchestrated income redistribution up the economic ladder.

JKL2

May 7th, 2012
10:53 am

adam- Sorry, but the CATO institute is not the real world at all

you got nothing. It’s OK…

UNCLE SAMANTHA

May 7th, 2012
10:54 am

ocmulgee
you prove my point i made to jay

government doesn’t make profits
government relies on profits in order to collect tax revenue

if you don’t invest in creating an environment for business to make a profit
then govt doesn’t increase its revenue and cannot grow

yes, transportation is an important part

but in the world of GLOBALIZATION right now, its tax deals and right-to-work that attract business

UNCLE SAMANTHA

May 7th, 2012
10:56 am

oh adam
its production that liberals wanted in their unionized mecca of WA
you squabble over semantics because you can’t handle that in the world of GLOBALIZATION right now, its tax deals and right-to-work that attract business

You libs

May 7th, 2012
10:56 am

“Politicians making business decisions………HAH!”

They should just stick to making science decisions and keeping those danged women straight.

Adam

May 7th, 2012
10:57 am

because you can’t handle that in the world of GLOBALIZATION right now,

Then why did they choose SC instead of China?

JKL2

May 7th, 2012
10:57 am

Old Goober- Administrative overhead on Medicare: 2%, Administrative overhead on private medical insurance policies: 20%

Good thing we have ACA to eliminate medicare and force everyone to buy insurance then. I guess Pelosi didn’t read that one in her wonderful and exciting legislation…

Adam

May 7th, 2012
10:57 am

JKL2: I presented evidence, you presented propaganda. It is you who has nothing. Try again, though. I’m a fair guy.

Adam

May 7th, 2012
10:58 am

Good thing we have ACA to eliminate medicare

Wow. If that’s not psychological projection I don’t know what is

UNCLE SAMANTHA

May 7th, 2012
10:59 am

ADAM
TO BUILD IN CHINA THEY HAVE TO HAVE A CHINESE PARTNER WITH OVER 50.1% CONTROL OF THE COMPANY IN CHINA

they are not going to do that

WA production for west coast and asia
SC production for east coast and europe

Atlantan

May 7th, 2012
10:59 am

I do appreciate the irony of businesses wanting government to stay out of their business, but also will willing take the money from the highest bidder of govt. Sadly it is the way of doing business in America now as states compete with one another in this tough Obama economy.

Regardless – a huge catch for GA and should pay dividends in a multiplier effect down the road.

Look before I leap...

May 7th, 2012
11:04 am

“not curious just not buying their argument that GA needs to spend tax $ on transportation to attract new business as opposed to tax deals…………..”

Samantha, I think you are being intentionally obtuse because you seem to have some sort of bias against investing tax dollars into improving GA’s transportation infrastructure.

I am not claiming that transportation is THE deciding factor. I am stating that it is one of many, but it has significant import. The process involves assigning a numerical grade to each of many factors.
In some cases, transportation is of great import – especially when the company is geared towards manufacturing as you have costs to bring in materials and parts and costs to get your finished goods to market.

Delta is here because Hartsfield is here (you can even make the claim that Hartsfield is here because Delta is here – it’s a very symbiotic relationship). But because GA and the city of Atlanta chose to commit to huge investments at Hartsfield, Delta is here to stay for the foreseeable future. Delta could have easily decided to relocate its HQ to MSP during the NWA merger had they not gotten what they wanted from the city.

We tend to think of transportation in terms of people/employee commutes which is only a fraction of the overall consideration. When you have to move materials, the impact is much higher. But the infrastructure used (roads) is the same. Whether you are an air or rail or seaport hub, eventually, something gets on a truck and on the road. If the road portion is a tangled mess, that adds to the cost.

Ocmulgee Paddler

May 7th, 2012
11:06 am

Sam,

Your viewpoint is short sighted, those tax incentives are icing on the cake. How about years down the road when the benefit of those deals has run its course and the business is surrounded by crumbling infrastructure or an uneducated workforce?

UNCLE SAMANTHA

May 7th, 2012
11:07 am

look before you leap
i agree with you about transportation’s importance
i also view transportation as a vital investment by govt
however,
i disagree in that TODAY the predominant factor in attracting business in a world of Globalization is tax deals and right-to-work environments…………

UNCLE SAMANTHA

May 7th, 2012
11:08 am

ocmulgee

then they pick up and move to the next place…………..
just like GM and CHRYLSER do

GaDawg

May 7th, 2012
11:11 am

Nothing new here, Politicians always find ways to get those 50 yard line seats and Masters tickets by using the taxpayers money. Just like the promise by the pro T SPLOST crowd, that 200,000 new jobs will appear if we just pass the 1% sales tax in July, nothing but pulling numbers out of their azz. In Cherokee County the BOC issued 18 million in bond money to a single guy to build a recycle plant that has now gone bust and the county taxpayer is on the hook to repay the bond debt for the next 30 years, makes you wonder what he gave them for that little favor.

Ocmulgee Paddler

May 7th, 2012
11:12 am

Sam,

Then you prove my point! Infrastructure and an educated workforce are key to KEEPING business in GA.

UNCLE SAMANTHA

May 7th, 2012
11:15 am

ocmulgee

that was never in question
and besides
of STATE GOVT
those are the 2 DOMINANT expenditures anyway for state govt

Tom(Independent-Viet Vet USAF)

May 7th, 2012
11:18 am

If states do not offer perks and huge tax incentives, new businesses will relocate to states that do. Or they will relocate overseas to places like China or India. The states are between a rock and hard place in attracting new businesses, damn if you do or damn if you do not! Repubs and Democrats both do the same in this venture, if you chose to criticize one, you must criticize the other also. My personal opinion is do whatever you have to do to create more jobs in Georgia, giving people an opportunity to work!!

Look before I leap...

May 7th, 2012
11:26 am

“TODAY the predominant factor in attracting business in a world of Globalization is tax deals and right-to-work environments………”

That would be part of the reality, yes.
It is still governmental largesse.
In this case it is welfare for the corporate entity and the justification is that there is an upside for the public in terms of increased employment. The actual value of that increase and therefore the ROI is somewhat murky. Some posters here seem to be adherents to Keynesian economics (whether they know it or not) by citing the impact of multipliers and accelerators. Without getting into whether Keynes had it right or not, there is a lag effect that is not being considered – these 1,500 jobs are not going to all appear at once next January. And not all jobs will go to current residents, and you also have to evaluate the secondary impact to the local economy by understanding the economic elasticity of the 4 county area where Baxter has decided to locate. There is not enough information in Jay’s post to accurately evaluate whether or not this is a good or bad deal for Georgia.

Ocmulgee Paddler

May 7th, 2012
11:27 am

To be fair, you did question at first the importance of spending more on infrastructure.

Trying to make my point again. I understand that this is the world we live in and that this is at this stage of the game an “evil necessity” to attract business to GA. My point was initially that this way stinks. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Government should be setting up the environment to be conducive to business, not dictating who gets a cushy incentive. Again, that is not the world we live in. It’s how it should be…

real john

May 7th, 2012
11:29 am

Jay,

I agree with you 100% on the stadium deal. If this gets rammed down our throat (like it appears that it will), I hope you expose those involoved.

I love the Falcons, but Blank and his buddies can pay for it. Mayor Reed and Blank just want another Super Bowl. While I would love for Atlanta to have another Super Bowl, its not worth building an entire new stadium for it. The only people who benefit are people like Mayor Reed, Arthur Blank, and other super weatly people. The Super Bowl has long ago forgotten the common fan.

As far as the incentives go, in general, I support it. However, that’s not to say some deals aren’t bad. I’m sure some states have probably given too much, but I think if proper due diligence is done, the incentives pay off in the end

Adam

May 7th, 2012
11:31 am

There are plenty of businesses that start up and stay in different states and do NOT move just because of tax incentives. Only LARGE businesses that can afford to do stuff like that do that, and many of them choose not to. Businesses moving due to tax incentives are the exception, not the rule, and I defy anyone here to prove otherwise. Show me that tax incentives are the ONLY or SOLE reason that a business has moved. Show me that they didn’t place a concern, such as cheap labor, above that.

Darwin

May 7th, 2012
11:37 am

Jay – We’re basically moving back to pre-New Deal type government, both on the Federal and State levels. If that’s what the people want, then that’s what they’re going to get. Interesting article in yesterday’s AJC about government and government programs. And what the people want. It’s not that the people want smaller government, they want government to cost less. Which means that when you get down to cutting programs, the politicians balk. It’s all talk. So, it’s the public sector jobs that we’re going to see disappear and which will pay less in wages. Get ready for it.

Tom(Independent-Viet Vet USAF)

May 7th, 2012
11:51 am

Adam@11:31 – Just read your blog, you are to be nice, different! It seems like you always want to put govt or private sector people down, unless they are Obama’s supporters! Have you ever said anything nice about anyone? A few days ago, a poster said your Occupy tent blew across the street, is that why you seem mad all the time?

BOB FROM ACCOUNT TEMPS

May 7th, 2012
11:55 am

would have like to see jay compare that cost ($140K per job)to the amount spent to “create” a federal government job. just saying.

Let The Market Work

May 7th, 2012
11:59 am

If I were a business looking to relocate I would be looking for a state with well-educated citizens, low taxes, good transportation, low crime, a convenient location and good climate.

Fortunately Georgia has the two that you can’t change and needs to work on the others. If we fix those problems we won’t have to bribe companies to come here.

There is something wrong with your state if you have to pay companies to move there.

Adam

May 7th, 2012
12:12 pm

A few days ago, a poster said your Occupy tent blew across the street, is that why you seem mad all the time?

I’m sure he did. But if you read my posts regularly you’d know I am not part of that movement and post from my job that permits me to do so as long as I get my work done.

Compromise

May 7th, 2012
12:17 pm

Just call it Soylandra and everyone will be happy, only difference is a a few years from now the jobs will still be there and you will only be out 1/2 as much do-ra-mi.

Peter

May 7th, 2012
12:45 pm

The Republican’s don’t care how the tax payers money is spent…… The Iraq war is the example, and locally they legislators can collect anything they want via the corrupt lobbyists, and not have to tell a soul.

Georgia is considered the most corrupt state in the union, and last for disclosure….. that ” Good Old Boy ” network, worlks for a few !

Tom(Independent-Viet Vet USAF)

May 7th, 2012
12:58 pm

Peter@12:45 – As a good old southern boy, I hear the State of California is calling for you!! Bye and have a nice life!!

Tom(Independent-Viet Vet USAF)

May 7th, 2012
1:01 pm

Oh, Peter, I almost forgot, your new heroes will be Nancy Pelosi and Barbara Boxer!! Remember now, they do things different on the West coast!!

Get Real

May 7th, 2012
1:14 pm

Sounds like the jobs created by the stimulus plan but I think those jobs cost about $250,000 each…

Shine

May 7th, 2012
1:35 pm

Need to drug test all these leaches just like kooks in the GOP just did to welfare recipients.

Moderate Line

May 7th, 2012
1:43 pm

Study after study demonstrates that stadium deals are bad investments for state and local governments, while they significantly increase the value of the sports franchises for whom the facilities are built. But city after city chooses to make the deal nonetheless.
++++
I agree cities buying stadiums are a bad deal for tax payers but I would have to see a study on non sports companies to see if their is a relationship. The results may be the same.

commoncents

May 7th, 2012
1:46 pm

Jay “Based on open-record requests, it turns out that state and local taxpayers will cough up as much $210 million in tax incentives and subsidies to lure Baxter International”

It would be great to know the details of this… It’s hard to “cough up” incentives, seeing as GA wouldn’t actually pay them money, just defer what Baxter would pay, or, in the case of Baxter not building here, what GA would NEVER receive.

Tax breaks only cost us when the gov’t uses fuzzy accounting. Just like people, the government should build budgets on what they have, not what they anticipate in x years.

commoncents

May 7th, 2012
1:48 pm

And I disagree with the potential stadium deal. Let Blank finance it or sell bonds for it, we already built him one that should be useful for another decade, according to the studies that were done prior to the building of the Dome

Corey

May 7th, 2012
1:53 pm

Jay
May 7th, 2012
8:03 am

But Jay, didn’t you know amnesia and hypocrisy are conservatives most glaring traits.

Moderate Line

May 7th, 2012
1:56 pm

There’s also something potentially corrupting in a system in which politicians are given the authority to hand out hundreds of millions of dollars in tax breaks and special deals.
+++++++
I believe one of the roles of government is to determine what people pay in taxes. 46% of the people do not pay any income tax.

williebkind

May 7th, 2012
1:57 pm

“Just say no to GOP socialism and MASSIVE corporate welfare.”

GOP socialism? I can not find the definition! Could you please define it for the readers?

Corporate welfare is the same slogan I have heard since the sixties and it continues to make no sense. The user of this term must be the offspring of hippies.

Moderate Line

May 7th, 2012
1:59 pm

Study after study demonstrates that stadium deals are bad investments for state and local governments, while they significantly increase the value of the sports franchises for whom the facilities are built. But city after city chooses to make the deal nonetheless.
+++++
I wonder what would happen if pro sports teams lost their anti-trust exemptions. My guess they would lose their bargaining chip of moving to another city because almost every city would have a team just like soccer in England.

williebkind

May 7th, 2012
2:08 pm

The tirades of progressive free speech. Just think, what if the liberals were in charge–the horror.

ken

May 7th, 2012
2:08 pm

Do Government employes pay federal tax or is it a wash ?

Roekest

May 7th, 2012
2:57 pm

I, too, am finding myself in agreement with Bookman. But not completely.

Paying hundreds of millions to lure a company on the surface sounds downright dirty. But is it better than letting Alabama or Tennessee get those jobs?

I’m thinking the idea here by the state is that Baxter, in the course of this facility being in GA, will generate more than $210M. And if its presence is successful in luring other businesses to the state, that $210M will seem like a pittance. The state could end making its $210M back, and then some, on this deal.

Billybob

May 7th, 2012
2:58 pm

i love to see the leftists trying to project obama’s socialist/marxist mindset and his central gov’t planning policies on people who are screaming to limit gov’t and get gov’t out of the way and are screaming for our elected officials to actually follow the constitution/cut debt/cut deficits……that’s why leftists are on the way out this fall b/c people see their lies more and more every day……keep talking libs, you are creating the landslide that will hit the dem party on nov 7th

Adam

May 7th, 2012
3:15 pm

that’s why leftists are on the way out this fall b/c people see their lies more and more every day

Saved for the I Told You So thread in November.

Winston Oxford

May 7th, 2012
3:30 pm

The vast majority of our state incentives are tax credits which will be applied against any Georgia Income Tax owed after the facilities are in operations in Georgia. “You can’t give away something you do not currently have” and I’m talking about this industrial investment coming to Georgia and would not have come without such incentives. Also I might mention that these new industrial jobs will also create many other support jobs (as many as 5 to 7 per industrial job brought with this new company) to include employees of McDonald’s Hamburgers, Bank Tellers as well as more people for local lawyers to sue. Get the picture?

zeke

May 7th, 2012
3:50 pm

so where is economic payback analysis? or is this just mostly a political deal?

hryder

May 7th, 2012
4:32 pm

In November, VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENT ELECTED OFFICE HOLDERS AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL! ANYONE WOULD DO A BETTER JOB BY MERELY SITTING ON THEIR HANDS AND COLLECTING THE SALARY! ALMOST EVERY INCUMBENT HAS SUPPORTED LEGISLATION THAT HAS INCREASED THE NATIONAL DEBT, KEPT UNEMPLOYMENT HIGH, AND BUYING VOTES WITH TAXPAYER FUNDS’ GIVEAWAYS TO THE NONPRODUCTIVE.

You libs

May 7th, 2012
4:37 pm

FIRE EVERYONE WHO HAS EVER WORKED AT ANY JOB FOR ANY TIME; EXPERIENCE JUST MAKES YOU LESS COMPETENT. AND TRY, AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY, TO BECOME MORE DOCTRINAIRE BECAUSE THAT AND AUSTERITY ARE JUST WHAT WE NEED RIGHT NOW!

$140k is a bargain, right?

May 7th, 2012
4:44 pm

Government programs cost that much (OR MORE) EVERY YEAR to “protect” and “create” jobs. At least the $140k (if it all materializes) is a total number.

Oblama

May 7th, 2012
5:12 pm

Jay – At least they are long term jobs created in the private sector – unlike the government made temp jobs that Oblama bought which cost the taxpayers BILLIONS.

dbm

May 7th, 2012
5:19 pm

This is an example of why we need strict constitutional limitations on what government at any level can do.

The Snark

May 7th, 2012
5:44 pm

Take a stroll through the employee parking lot at that KIA plant in West Point … lotta Alabama license plates … but a politician got to claim that he “did something” … with our money … while lambasting them tax & spend demmocrats …

Common Sense

May 7th, 2012
6:11 pm

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/may/7/white-house-ditches-arab-owned-site-us-jobs-speech/

The company broke ground in July 2009 with the help of at least $400 million of “Build America Bonds,” municipal bonds created under the federal government’s stimulus plan in 2009. New York state will make payments on the bonds for 15 years, and the program allows the state to receive federal subsidy payments covering up to 35 percent of the interest paid to investors.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Build America Bonds, eh? Looks like Federal Liberals are the kings of this game.

Joe

May 7th, 2012
7:25 pm

The stadium deal sounds like taxpayers are getting the shaft. The Baxter deal is harder to figure without more information. I think those kind of deals can be a positive for the state, but it is important to have accountability and disclosure of the details of the deal to make sure the public isn’t getting taken advantage of.

lovelyliz

May 8th, 2012
9:10 am

Amen St Simons