The real student-loan scandal
Charlie Harper, writing at Peach Pundit, notes the worrisome parallels between the college-loan situation and the housing-loan bubble just before it burst a few years ago:
“Virtually anyone that applied got a loan. There was no consideration given to how the loan would be repaid. No calculations for repayment ability were required. Most borrowers overestimated the value of their purchase and underestimated the income that would be available in the future to retire the debt. The government subsidized an unlimited amount of borrowing, and then the problem was so large that when an alarm was sounded, too many people were invested in the status quo that the system could not be changed until it was too late.”
There’s a lot of truth to that. Outstanding student loan debt hit an estimated $1 trillion this week. And according to the most recent numbers available, more and more students are defaulting on those loans. The annual default rate has risen from 6.7 percent in 2007 to 8.8 percent in 2009, and today, three years later, it’s undoubtedly higher still. In this economy, it can’t be easy coming out of college with a degree and $60,000 or $100,000 in debt.
However, it’s important to point out that college graduates with large debt aren’t really the problem. The larger problem is the predatory for-profit schools that have popped up around the country to try to separate students from their college-loan money and in the process deliver little in the way of useful education.
The industry is large and growing rapidly. During the 2008-2009 academic year, those schools collected $4.3 billion in Pell grants and $20 billion in federal loans. That’s more than double the amount that they received as recently as 2005.
More importantly, the default rates on those loans are very high and rising.
In 2009, just 5.2 percent of students who had attended four-year public schools such as Georgia State or the University of Georgia defaulted on their loans. Just 4.5 percent of those who had attended non-profit private colleges defaulted.
However, the default rate among those attending four-year for-profit proprietary schools was 15.4 percent. Between 2007 and 2009, the number of students from for-profit proprietary schools who defaulted on their loans increased by 65 percent.
(It’s important to note that some for-profit schools do a good job for their students and have a relatively low default rate. If you have questions, the U.S. Department of Education maintains a database that allows you to check the default rate for each institution.)
Why are the default rates among for-profit schools generally so high? As the schools point out, part of it can be explained by the fact they serve non-traditional students. That’s a valid point. But in far too many cases, those students don’t get the education or the degree that they pay for and end up tens of thousands of dollars in debt to the taxpayer without the means to repay it.
The Education Trust, a Washington think tank specializing in higher-ed issues, released a report in November 2010 noting that just 22 percent of full-time students who began a four-year program at for-profit schools actually got a degree within six years. And while some schools do better, some do much much worse.
To many of these schools, the guaranteed federal loan programs are simply a cash cow to be milked. They exist solely because of taxpayers’ money. So in an effort to bring at least some rationality to the industry, the federal government instituted the so-called “90-10″ rule. Colleges are allowed to collect no more than 90 percent of their revenue from federal sources, leaving 10 percent to be generated through actual tuition payments and other private sources.
It’s a good rule. But what did the proprietary schools do in response? In many cases, they created their own, private in-house student loan programs to provide that missing 10 percent. According to a 2011 study by the National Consumer Law Center, the schools finance those loans to their own students knowing full well that many will never be repaid. And they don’t care:
“As documented in this report, the default rates on most institutional loans are shockingly high. The schools seem to view these loans more as “loss leaders” to keep the federal dollars flowing… Schools make unaffordable loans as a way of filling up the 10% category with vapor revenues derived from loans that will never be repaid.”
(The NCLC also points out the great discrepancy in executive pay at for-profit colleges, noting that “the chairman and CEO of the for-profit education company Strayer Education was paid $41.9 million in 2009, 26 times the compensation of the highest-paid president of a traditional university.)
Again, it’s important to stress that these colleges are not surviving in the private marketplace on private money. They are preying on federal dollars funneled through their students. Nonetheless, the issue has become caught up in the ideological warfare in Congress. The Republican-led House has generally taken the position that trying to reduce abuse of federal student-loan programs by proprietary schools amounts to government regulation of private enterprise.
In addition, the proprietary-school industry spent some $6 million in lobbying in 2010 alone. It has also been active on the campaign finance front. According to the Minneapolis Star-Tribune the industry contributed more than $100,000 in 2010 alone to U.S. Rep. John Kline, R-Minn., chairman of the House Education Committee.
Most of the media attention on this issue has focused on the plight of middle-class kids. Politicians, including President Obama, are also playing to that demographic for votes. But in return for their debt, those students are at least getting good educations from good schools. They at least have a fighting chance to turn that education into a career that will allow them to repay that debt.
But millions of others who are largely invisible to the rest of us are being played for suckers, with Uncle Sam as a silent financier in the scam.
– Jay Bookman
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354 comments Add your comment
Normal Free, Plain and Simple
April 26th, 2012
11:35 am
We don’t need no edgy-kay-shun…
Normal Free, Plain and Simple
April 26th, 2012
11:39 am
Would it be considered irony if the U. S. financial system was felled by a student loan bubble?
Thomas Heyward Jr.
April 26th, 2012
11:40 am
“But millions of others who are largely invisible to the rest of us are being played for suckers, with Uncle Sam as a silent financier in the scam.”
.
Uncle Scam is pervasive.
Butch Cassidy
April 26th, 2012
11:40 am
Normal – “Would it be considered irony if the U. S. financial system was felled by a student loan bubble?”
Not as ironic than if it happened under Romneys watch.
Fly-on-the-Wall
April 26th, 2012
11:40 am
Just like with everything else the Republicans look to private business to solve we find out that they just step up to the feeding trough and no one says a thing about it because it is ‘privatized’.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
11:41 am
Charlie Harper, writing at Peach Pundit, notes the worrisome parallels between the college-loan situation and the housing-loan bubble just before it burst a few years ago:
Aren’t these loans also bundled and sold as investment vehicles?
Brosephus™
April 26th, 2012
11:41 am
The Republican-led House has generally taken the position that trying to reduce abuse of federal student-loan programs by proprietary schools amounts to government regulation of private enterprise.
Wouldn’t that place them in an ideological conundrum? It has the appearance of wasteful spending of taxpayers dollars. It appears to be government spending running out of control. However, since the private sector is prospering because of it, any attempt to correct things is regulation of private interprise? If they don’t want government regulation, then don’t take government money. That would solve everything very quickly.
ByteMe - Political thug
April 26th, 2012
11:41 am
Just checked on one of my clients — a non-traditional trade school whose students receive federal money — around 8% default rate in 2009. Not bad, not great.
Thanks for that link Jay!
Over/Under on “but… but… but… Obama!” is 35 with this thread. Place yer bets!
barking frog
April 26th, 2012
11:42 am
Wow. Privatization in
education is working.
Aquagirl
April 26th, 2012
11:42 am
But…but….more regulation of business is bad, they should be left unfettered and the invisible hand of the market will take care of everything.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
11:43 am
Over/Under on “but… but… but… Obama!” is 35 with this thread. Place yer bets!
I’ll take the under.
ty webb
April 26th, 2012
11:44 am
No private, for-profit schools should receive any federal money. They should be allowed to create their own loan programs and charge any rate they want…That being said, they also shouldn’t be able to come to the federal government with their hands out when their loans are defaulted on.
ByteMe - Political thug
April 26th, 2012
11:46 am
Would it be considered irony if the U. S. financial system was felled by a student loan bubble?
The bubble is in education, not in education loans.
The bubble will burst when some enterprising college like Stanford decides to take their best instructors in each field, record their class lectures, throw it up on the web for $500 per course and another $500 for testing/certification for credit hours that are accepted at any accredited institution. Do that and the bubble pops and the price of education starts to fall. As long as supply — the available space at all colleges — is artificially kept limited and demand remains high, colleges can keep their tuition costs high.
ByteMe - Political thug
April 26th, 2012
11:47 am
What’s the default rate on “Glenn Beck University”?
USinUK
April 26th, 2012
11:47 am
I’m with Kam’s 11:43
barking frog
April 26th, 2012
11:50 am
Can the problem be solved
by making the for profit
schools into non profit
schools?
carlosgvv
April 26th, 2012
11:50 am
It seems reasonably certain that this student loan situation will be the next big bubble to burst. When this happens, look for another recession.
What is absolutely certain is that if and when this happens, the Democrats and Republicans will vigorously blame each other for the mess and both Parties will be essentially powerless to do much about fixing it.
Student Loans And For Profit Schools — Peach Pundit
April 26th, 2012
11:51 am
[...] Bookman takes our discussion yesterday regarding student loans and extends it into the area of subsidies for for-profit institutions: In 2009, just 5.2 percent of students who had attended four-year public schools such as Georgia [...]
Paul
April 26th, 2012
11:52 am
I know the main theme is the predatory schools, but on the issue of student loans, I’ll note my experience with kids in college: it’s “cosign.” As in “Sorry, little Timmy? Didn’t get your payment? We’ll call dad and demand a credit card number.”
I don’t have any idea if my situation is the minority or not, but I think there are a lot of parents on the hook.
Now to wait for the “we don’t need no stinkin’ regulations, this is free ennerprise” chorus to start regarding those ’schools.’
ByteMe - Political thug
April 26th, 2012
11:53 am
When this happens, look for another recession.
Nope. These are basically “unsecured loans”. No additional assets are being created to for these loans, so no inventory or business adjustment will take place. The government backs the loans, so they’ll just print money to cover the cost and no one will notice it except for the whining class.
Simple Truths
April 26th, 2012
11:56 am
I’ll take the under bet…
Simple Truths
April 26th, 2012
11:56 am
But… but… but… Obama
getalife
April 26th, 2012
11:56 am
How can they pay back the loans with no jobs?
ty webb
April 26th, 2012
11:57 am
and I don’t know if “predatory” is a good adjective for some of theses schools…If someone sees a commercial for a “school” during “Jerry Springer” or “Sixteen and Pregnant” and decides that it may be a good opportunity for them, then their not really be hunted, it’s more like their brain dead minds are being picked clean by a scavenger.
Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)
April 26th, 2012
11:58 am
Why are the default rates among for-profit schools generally so high?
Try to get a job with one of those degrees. You are better off leaving the school name off your application/resume.
The real student-loan scandal – Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) | Lending Student Loan
April 26th, 2012
11:58 am
[...] The real student-loan scandalAtlanta Journal Constitution (blog)Outstanding student loan debt hit an estimated $ 1 trillion this week. And according to the most recent numbers available, more and more students are defaulting on those loans. The annual default rate has risen from 6.7 percent in 2007 to 8.8 percent in … [...]
Peadawg
April 26th, 2012
11:59 am
Everytime we cut funds to schools, they raise tuition and add more “special fees”, which causes more student loan debt.
Moral of the story – STOP CUTTING FUNDS TO SCHOOLS.
It’s not rocket science.
Obama is over
April 26th, 2012
11:59 am
Nice post. You are right. The for profit schools have been milking the taxpayers for several years. $80k for a culinary degree? When junior graduates and is disappointed that he is chopping onions as a sous chef making minimum wage, it becomes pretty tempting to default on student loans. One of the hardest decisions one makes is what you want to be when you grow up ( I change my mind on a regular basis). The purpose of higher education is not training to get a job, it is learning how to think and express yourself. If you are looking to learn a specific skill set to get employment, you should go to trade school or if you have an undergraduate degree, go to grad school to refine your skills if that is the direction you so choose. Our parent’s generation got a job, worked, and retired. 2012 graduates will probably change jobs 5 or 6 times during their career. The ability to think, express yourself, and frankly learn new skills to adapt to a constantly changing world are going to be the keys to success. I have hired many young people at various positions during my career. I always went for the hungry ones who wanted to learn and grow rather than the Harvard MBA’s who were going to tell me how to run my business with no real world experience.
Carroll sterne
April 26th, 2012
12:00 pm
Why does the Federal gov’t have to guarantee all loans? “Students” at the for profit schools attend so that they can live off the student loans that cannot be included in bankruptcy. Sinful.
Simple Truths
April 26th, 2012
12:00 pm
Jay, how much of the $1 trillion in student loan debt is held by students at for-profit schools versus non-profit schools?
It seems to me you are throwing up a smoke screen and not focusing on the real problem: that most of the debt is from non-profit schools.
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
April 26th, 2012
12:01 pm
Well, it serves the librul punks right if they wind up in debt the rest of their life. All colledge does is turn good kids into godless unAmerican libruls. Alot of them are on this blog with their fancy/smancy writing. You can tell alot of the Conservatives hee ain’t never been to colledge because they don’t write too good. They think American.
If these colledge people wind up busting the economy because of their big debts I say let’s lock them up. It works for everything else.
It’s beans & weenies time and I got to get to it. Have a good Thursday everybody.
barking frog
April 26th, 2012
12:01 pm
Simple Truths
Clearly you are a student..
getalife
April 26th, 2012
12:02 pm
It all comes back to the issue the gop lied about last election.
Jobs.
Simple Truths
April 26th, 2012
12:03 pm
barking frog,
I’m only a student of life at this point. I graduated 10+ years ago…
Jefferson
April 26th, 2012
12:04 pm
Working your way thru college used to take 10 years or so, work part time go to school part time, now it seems kids want to finance their food, room and board. Financing food is never a good idea.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
12:05 pm
I graduated 10+ years ago…
Time to go back for some continuing education courses, then.
cranky old man
April 26th, 2012
12:05 pm
“The Republican-led House has generally taken the position that trying to reduce abuse of federal student-loan programs by proprietary schools amounts to government regulation of private enterprise.”
Given the rhetoric we typically hear from Republicans, it’s kind of bizarre that they aren’t simply clamoring for the end of all federal funding for student loans and grants. That would be more consistent with their stated ideology that the market knows best, and any interference from the government will always cause distortion and less-than-optimal utilization of resources.
Soothsayer
April 26th, 2012
12:06 pm
A trillion here, a trillion there. Pretty soon, you’re talking about some real money, Jay.
barking frog
April 26th, 2012
12:07 pm
Simple truths
just commenting on
the ‘bet fixing’.
Jefferson
April 26th, 2012
12:07 pm
When asked about student loans Romney replied “Shop Around”… fine if you tell business when they want help to “shop around”.
kayaker 71
April 26th, 2012
12:07 pm
If we could just work on a lower graduation rate from high school, we might have fewer student loans to worry about. In Macon, with our graduation rate at 41%, we are in fat city. Many of the students in college today do not need to be there. The drop out rate is much more than publicized. What do you think happens to a student loan when the student hangs around for a year or two and then drops out. I would imagine that the default rate on those kinds of loans is pretty high.
UNCLE SAMANTHA
April 26th, 2012
12:09 pm
the student loan industrial complex…………….
Jay
April 26th, 2012
12:09 pm
Simple, I haven’t seen the total debt broken down like that.
In general, though, the proprietary-school students end up having more debt than students in other categories, and of course a much higher default rate. And in 2009, proprietary-school students amounted to 28 percent of those beginning to repay loans, up from 25 percent just two years earlier.
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
12:10 pm
I thought Republicans were supposed to be in favor of eliminating taxes. So why are they pushing to give more tax dollars to those for-profit schools.
Michael
April 26th, 2012
12:10 pm
Agreed Jay.
barking frog
April 26th, 2012
12:11 pm
When a student loan
defaults the money
or part of it should be
be recovered from the
school that got the money.
ty webb
April 26th, 2012
12:11 pm
does this mean Obama’s next campaign stop is going to be at Devry?
Lord Help Us
April 26th, 2012
12:13 pm
The problem here is clearly CRA, Barney Frank, Fannie and Freddie…
Jefferson
April 26th, 2012
12:13 pm
When a man with money hooks up with a man with the know-how, after a while the man with money will forget he doesn’t have the know-how.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
12:14 pm
does this mean Obama’s next campaign stop is going to be at Devry?
Or Romney either, for that matter.
They both seem eager for that demographic.
Just sayin’.
barking frog
April 26th, 2012
12:15 pm
ty webb
April 26th, 2012
12:11 pm
does this mean Obama’s
next campaign stop is going
to be at Devry?
———
to pick up his transcript?
carlosgvv
April 26th, 2012
12:16 pm
ByteMe – 11:53
The student loan debt amount actually exceeds the credit card debt amount. If there is a substantial amount of default, I don’t think just printing more money will solve the problem. We are talking about one trillion dollars of debt, and, if a large portion of that is defaulted, there’s no way our economy will go unaffected.
kayaker 71
April 26th, 2012
12:16 pm
Georgia law states that any Georgia resident over 65 can attend a state sponsored university or college tuition free. Followed that up at Macon State University last month, and, to my surprise, the breakdown on tuition and fees was pretty amazing. Tuition per semester hour was a little over $200. However, when you add the fees per semester hour, the total is well over $1,000 per semester hour. Try that on a 15hr schedule/semester and the money skyrockets. And that is just for some jerkwater Georgia school with no claim to fame.
GT
April 26th, 2012
12:16 pm
The very word education has been blurred in the last few decades. Republicans don’t want an educated public nor does a Murdock, who is going to watch FOX News if you see the bias accounting and 2 plus 2 equals 6. You can steer an uneducated public just about where you want them with money. You play their weakness like race cards, and crime. You make homosexuality become a choice like Communism, and you make a worthless degree make them think they are armed for intellectual warfare. More and more America is living in a parallel universe where language is spoken but with different meaning than conventional language for the same words. And more and more people are figuring out ,like Murdock, how to make money by manufacturing idiots, like cattle farmers producing cows,as opposed to caughting game in the wilds, I am surprised FOX hasn’t joined this scam and formed their own university, yet why waste the time when so many are doing it for them.
Mary Elizabeth
April 26th, 2012
12:17 pm
“According to a 2011 study by the National Consumer Law Center, the schools finance those loans to their own students knowing full well that many will never be repaid. And they don’t care:”
“Don’t care” are the key words of that statement.
===============================================================
“Again, it’s important to stress that these colleges are not surviving in the private marketplace on private money. They are preying on federal dollars funneled through their students. Nonetheless, the issue has become caught up in the ideological warfare in Congress.”
And, now, private-sector ideologues want to dismantle public elementary and secondary schools for essentially a privately controlled “school choice” mantra, using public tax dollars to subsidize “for- profit” private schools. Can one not see the financial results that will occur if this ideological, and predatory plan of using governmental and public funds for private market profit, is fully implemented?
==================================================
“ ‘Virtually anyone that applied got a loan. There was no consideration given to how the loan would be repaid. No calculations for repayment ability were required.’ ”
This same approach reminds me of the thinking behind the decisions to go to war in Afghanistan and Iraq. “Act first, and consider the financial cost to the nation, later.” Of course, if one does not care (those words again) about the size of the deficit, as a result of one’s actions, it is easy enough to forge ahead with unbudgeted wars – uncaringly.
==================================================
Enough of the immoral use of governmental and public tax dollars, via corrupted legislators, to subsidize the pocketbooks of the wealthy and powerful few, at the expense (with several connotations implied) of the many.
Brad Steel
April 26th, 2012
12:17 pm
…government regulation of private enterprise.
That argument has really worked out well …… for for lobbyist and 1% of the population.
Jay
April 26th, 2012
12:17 pm
Cranky:
“The Education Trust, a Washington-based advocacy group, estimates that the (Ryan) budget would reduce total Pell Grants and student loans by about $166 billion over the next decade. The lost funding would leave more than 1 million students without grants.
Kate Tromble, the legislative director for the Education Trust, called the GOP’s proposed cuts a “double whammy” for low-income students. Pell Grant recipients are more than twice as likely to as other students to have student loans.”
Meanwhile...
April 26th, 2012
12:18 pm
What a surprise, no comments yet on one of Jay’s key points, i.e., “…Most of the media attention on this issue has focused on the plight of middle-class kids. Politicians, including President Obama, are also playing to that demographic for votes. …”
Hopefully student loans are not the next bailout!!!! As we continue to socialize the mortgage debts of home purchasers who thought they were guaranteed a profit when buying, will we now forgive loans to people that “need” it because they made dumb choices and majored in worthless fields and refused to work during school, at the expense of the rest of us who actually contribute to society.
Looking back I feel really stupid for working as hard as I did/do. Future generations will learn quickly that hard work is punished and poor choices are rewarded/mitigated.
Jm
April 26th, 2012
12:19 pm
People are responsible for their own decisions
Duh
Liberals: not advocates for individual responsibility
Lord Help Us
April 26th, 2012
12:20 pm
‘Future generations will learn quickly that hard work is punished and poor choices are rewarded/mitigated.’
Only if you are a person named Goldman, Merrill, AIG, etc…
ty webb
April 26th, 2012
12:20 pm
“nor does a Murdock…”
well in his defense, he and the rest of the “A-team”, have been busy fighting bad guys.
Jm
April 26th, 2012
12:20 pm
Non profit schools run the same scam as for profits
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
12:21 pm
I didn’t think the law allowed one to absolve one’s student loan debt via bankruptcy.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
12:22 pm
Future generations will learn quickly that hard work is punished and poor choices are rewarded/mitigated.
The current generation learned that hard work is punished and greed is rewarded.
Jm
April 26th, 2012
12:23 pm
The non profit scam just distributes profits to teachers and outside for profit school vendors
(see SCAD)
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
12:24 pm
Non profit schools run the same scam as for profits
And what “scam” would that be? Making a profit.
Jay
April 26th, 2012
12:24 pm
Taxpayer, it does not.
When you default on a student loan, you end up with the IRS on your butt to collect.
ty webb
April 26th, 2012
12:24 pm
“Only if you are a person named Goldman, Merrill, AIG, etc…”
funny, you left off Chrysler and GM(though I guess that would be initials, and not a name per se)
Jm
April 26th, 2012
12:25 pm
Government should get out of the student loan biz, but if it is going to stay in, it should only be for STEM majors
We don’t need more lawyers and journalism majors
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
12:26 pm
Off topic:
Interesting piece on Zimmermn
http://news.yahoo.com/george-zimmerman-prelude-shooting-194235114.html
GT
April 26th, 2012
12:28 pm
And that is the purpose of the Republican Party, double whammy to the poor, had to make a majority of the GOP’s day.
The Republicans killed the Hope. If you look closely at the budget you will see what really killed the Hope, or keeps the tire fund from collecting old tires on the highway, is an agenda not written into the law when it was passed. The Republicans dip into the money earmarked for other non right purposes like education and environment and in doing so promote their cause by diversion and deprivation.
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
12:28 pm
Are student loan securities from places like Yale and Harvard given a AAA rating while those from Phoenix U. given a junk rating.
barking frog
April 26th, 2012
12:29 pm
Is Jay looking to the day
when he is sent to the
UGA School of Communications? But
he must get a Pulitzer
first.
Latigo1026
April 26th, 2012
12:29 pm
Just like the Wall St. investment banks, these institutions don’t have any skin in the game. Perhaps they should be required to co-sign for at least SOME part of the loan — say, a minimum of 10%. If a failure to get work after graduation resulted in loss of a good chunk of their profit, these institutions 1) might think twice about the quality of education they were providing, and 2) even have an assistance program to help students get work after graduation.
Paul
April 26th, 2012
12:31 pm
Hey Kamchak
“Charlie Harper, writing at Peach Pundit, notes the worrisome parallels between the college-loan situation and the housing-loan bubble just before it burst a few years ago:
Aren’t these loans also bundled and sold as investment vehicles?”
Did you know Barney Frank forced the banks to loan the money to students who are poor and likely to drop out?
Really… he did…. I think I heard it somewhere….
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
12:32 pm
We don’t need more lawyers and journalism majors
Or supply-side, trickle-on, phlogiston economists.
Lord Help Us
April 26th, 2012
12:33 pm
‘funny, you left off Chrysler and GM(though I guess that would be initials, and not a name per se)’
What’s the diff? Big corps with lots of political connections and lobbyists…
BTW: you are much more of a Judge Smails than a Ty Webb…
GT
April 26th, 2012
12:33 pm
Paul blind secondary funding too big to fail fed by pension funds bribed by Wall Street had nothing to do with Barney Frank.
Poor Boy from Alabama
April 26th, 2012
12:35 pm
JB,
I suggest you take a look at a March 2012 report from the National Center for Education Statistics (Part of the US Dept of Education). They released a detailed report that covers many of the themes you touched upon in your blog post:
Enrollment in Postsecondary Institutions, Fall 2010; Financial Statistics, Fiscal Year 2010; and Graduation Rates, Selected Cohorts, 2002-2007
http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2012280
What you’ll find is that while private, for profit schools are weak performers, they’re only a small part of the problem.
Let’s start with enrollments for Title IV schools . Here are the numbers for fall 2010 (See Table 1):
Total students: 21.588,124
Total at public institutions: 15,280,273 (71% of total)
Total at private non-profit institutions: 3,881,906 (18% of total)
Total at private for-profit institutions: 2,426,925 (11% of total)
Let’s look at revenues
Total revenues: $493.8 billion (See Table 5, calculations required)
Public institutions: $295.2 billion (60% of total)
Private non-profit institutions: $169.0 billion (34% of total)
Private for-profit institutions: $29.6 billion (6% of total)
Now let’s look at six year graduation rates (See Table 7)
All 4-year institutions (2004 cohort): 55.1%
Public institutions: 53.6%
Private non-profit institutions: 64.6%
Private for-profit institutions: 32.3%
There’s no doubt that many of the for profit private schools are doing a poor job. It ought to be obvious, however, that the student debt bubble is being driven by public and private non-profit institutions. They account for 89% of the students and 94% of the money sloshing through higher education. They have better graduation rates than private for-profit schools, but none of us should be happy with an overall six year graduation rate of only 55%. More accountability across the board is needed.
Soothsayer
April 26th, 2012
12:35 pm
I think a tax cut and some deregulation will solve this problem in no time. After all, it works for everything else.
Normal Free, Plain and Simple
April 26th, 2012
12:36 pm
Off tpoic, but can you believe this?
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/catholic-school-teacher-fired-vitro-fertilization-lawsuit-article-1.1067241?localLinksEnabled=false
JamVet - Stay ignorant, my friends...
April 26th, 2012
12:36 pm
“Only if you are a person named Goldman, Merrill, AIG, etc…”
funny, you left off Chrysler and GM(though I guess that would be initials, and not a name per se)
Just one itsy bitsy little difference.
Chrysler and GM did not set off the hydrogen bombs that caused our current apocalyptic economic landscape…
Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)
April 26th, 2012
12:37 pm
Here is the free education our kids should be getting when not in school. One lesson a week for a year. Each lesson takes about 3 hrs to get through.
http://codeyear.com/
Knowing a little programming can’t hurt.
ty webb
April 26th, 2012
12:38 pm
Lord help us,
and you remind me of a D’annunzio…or a Lacey Underall.
Normal Free, Plain and Simple
April 26th, 2012
12:38 pm
GT
April 26th, 2012
12:33 pm
To understand Paul, you need to understand dry humor…and sharp minds…jus’ sayin’
Jm
April 26th, 2012
12:38 pm
Maybe jay can do an expose on a non profit like Scad and get a Pulitzer
I doubt it tho
stands for decibels
April 26th, 2012
12:38 pm
jm sez: “…it should only be for STEM majors. We don’t need more lawyers and journalism majors”
Given that Mitt’s degrees are in English and law… oh well.
Guess you can always write in Herbert Hoover.
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
12:40 pm
Murdoch bought Wireless Generation, a US educational technology firm, for $360m, and gave it to Klein to run. Murdoch’s vision was that he would digitise the world’s so far unexploited classrooms. He told investors: “We see a $500bn sector in the US alone that is waiting desperately to be transformed by big breakthroughs.” He envisaged some of News Corporation’s large library of media content being beamed to pupils’ terminals.
Murdoch probably wants to start charging for those FOX broadcasts that he beams to his for-profit “schools”.
RB from Gwinnett
April 26th, 2012
12:40 pm
No worries Jay. They’ll just add it to the burden the 53% is already carrying. After all, they’re not paying their fair share anyway, right?
Jm
April 26th, 2012
12:41 pm
Kam
Of all people economics majors should pay their own way
And business majors
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
12:42 pm
Did you know Barney Frank forced the banks to loan the money to students who are poor and likely to drop out?
I’m sure it’s somehow James Ready’s fault too.
Jm
April 26th, 2012
12:44 pm
As a matter of fact everyone should pay their own way
But if we’re going to blow money, better to do it on STEM majors than anything else
Soothsayer
April 26th, 2012
12:44 pm
Why would anyone want to major in the STEMs? When you graduate, you’ll find that an H1-B visa Indian has already taken your job.
Why would anyone go to law school only to find out that entry-level work in the law profession is routinely outsourced to India?
Why would anyone want to major in Journalism? When you graduate, you’ll have to write what your boss tells you to write.
BeeJay
April 26th, 2012
12:44 pm
Ah yes, let’s blame it on the schools.
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
12:45 pm
I think this non-profit has the right idea. And it’s hard to beat the price.
JamVet - Stay ignorant, my friends...
April 26th, 2012
12:47 pm
As a matter of fact everyone should pay their own way.
WHAT????
That chump capitalism is only for those of us small enough to fail.
For the BIG boys its the kind of socialism that you trickled on Republicans love…
Soothsayer
April 26th, 2012
12:48 pm
Kam: thanks for helping me with that stupid Meebo bar last night.
Donovan
April 26th, 2012
12:49 pm
What’s wrong with this picture:
It’s not the fault of Obama, liberal elitist professor’s greed for huge tenured salaries, or “the plight of middle-class kids”. It is the fault of “predatory for-profit schools”.
“Obama plays to that demographic for votes. In return for their debt those students are getting good educations”. Oh really? Go ask your darling Occupy Movement students with dumb degrees in African American Studies, Cultural Strategic Studies, etc. how many relevant jobs are available to them. Absolutely none.
Like I said yesterday, your Democrat brothers in Congress in 2007 voted for the student interest loan to increase on a sliding scale. Now that this rate increase is to become inacted, it is a hot potato with you guys to exploit. Obama is quite the snake oil salesman masquerading as a would-be Santa Claus trying to win the college age vote. Disgusting!
Nice try, Jay. Only your liberal audience reads your essay and agrees with the pablum you dish out. Is that the best you can do?
JamVet - Stay ignorant, my friends...
April 26th, 2012
12:49 pm
For example your bankster heroes at Bank of America?
They have paid ZERO DOLLARS in federal income taxes for THREE STRAIGHT YEARS.
You chumps could too if you only spent over $20 million in lobbying and political campaigning since the 2008 elections—with someone else’s bailout money.
Occupy that, twits…
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
12:50 pm
Of all people economics majors should pay their own way
Of all people, economists should be relegated to the 1-900 industry with all the other psychics scamming people willing to spend $x on a per-minute basis.
They’re kinda like hookers, too.
JamVet - Stay ignorant, my friends...
April 26th, 2012
12:51 pm
Go ask your darling Occupy Movement students with dumb degrees in African American Studies, Cultural Strategic Studies, etc. how many relevant jobs are available to them.
Quit spitting on veterans, school teachers, nuns, policemen and housewives, racist…
Jm
April 26th, 2012
12:53 pm
If an individual doesn’t need the government involved in making an abortion decision, surely they’re capable of making their own decision about some education spending
After all, abortion is a life and death decision
Here we’re just talking about what kind of school you go to
Man up liberals
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
12:53 pm
Sooth
You must be running an older version of FF, cause it took me all morning to figure out how to do it on FF 12.0 and none of it had to do with your instructions last night.
But you’re right, a meebo free world is wunnerful
Jay
April 26th, 2012
12:53 pm
“There’s no doubt that many of the for profit private schools are doing a poor job. It ought to be obvious, however, that the student debt bubble is being driven by public and private non-profit institutions. They account for 89% of the students and 94% of the money sloshing through higher education.”
Poor Boy, I strongly disagree.
First of all, it’s not a bubble if the debt can and will be repaid. As has been documented, most students from public and private non-profit schools are repaying their debts. The annual default rate for private for-profit schools, on the other hand, is two to three times larger. In total, some 43 percent of loans made to students at private for-profit schools are in default.
In addition, for purposes of this discussion the fact that students at private for-profit schools account for merely 11 percent of total students is not relevant in the least.
What’s relevant is that the 11 percent in question account for some 28 percent of those taking loans, and some 47 percent of those defaulting. Both of those numbers are growing very quickly. Those are the numbers that matter.
barking frog
April 26th, 2012
12:54 pm
All education should be
free.
mm
April 26th, 2012
12:59 pm
Republicans don’t care if government dollars are used to help out businesses. It’s only when government dollars are used to help out people that they have a problem with the spending.
Along those same lines, they want to pay for everything with spending cuts, unless it’s a tax cut. Then they don’t care about the ensuing deficit.
Soothsayer
April 26th, 2012
12:59 pm
“All education should be free.”
You know, frog, if we could just figure out a way to get really stupid people to pay for people with some brains to go to college, that would be a wonderful thing.
Oh, wait! We already have that — it’s called the Georgia Lottery!
RB from Gwinnett
April 26th, 2012
1:00 pm
It’s becoming clear that by doing the right things, showing up for wot, paying your taxes, paying your mortgage, etc., you’ll be rewarded by paying the share dumped on the taxpayers by all the deadbeats too. If your identity doesn’t get stolen and your bank account drained by another deadbeat.
And half of the nation thiks that’s ok and even chastises you for claiming its not right.
This nation is in decline in many many ways.
ty webb
April 26th, 2012
1:02 pm
come on people, lay off the occupiers, despite their penchant for spreading feces and raping people, they’re not all bad.
JamVet - Stay ignorant, my friends...
April 26th, 2012
1:03 pm
frog, for a whole boatload of countries, that is the case.
Argentina
Barbados
Brazil
Belgium
Croatia
Denmark
Finland
Greece
Hungary
Kenya
Malta
Mauritius
Morocco
Norway
Scotland
Slovakia
Sri Lanka
Sweden
Trinidad and Tobago
Brunei
Turkey
Oman
Saudi Arabia
Uruguay
Hmmm, kinda like healthcare for all citizens, where most industrialized nations do that.
Amazing what nations can do when they don’t blow as much money as the rest of the planet combined on their war machines…
JamVet - Stay ignorant, my friends...
April 26th, 2012
1:04 pm
come on people, lay off the occupiers, despite their penchant for spreading feces and raping people, they’re not all bad.
Quit spitting on veterans, school teachers, nuns, policemen and housewives, liar…
Jefferson
April 26th, 2012
1:05 pm
RB- Life is Good
Mick
April 26th, 2012
1:07 pm
Sourpuss of the day award…goes to….donovan…never anything positive or happy in that world…may I suggest a sunshine superman???
Normal Free, Plain and Simple
April 26th, 2012
1:08 pm
JamVet – Stay ignorant, my friends…
April 26th, 2012
1:04 pm
Hear, hear!
ty webb
April 26th, 2012
1:10 pm
“liar”?
okay, correction, they’re all bad.
JamVet - Stay ignorant, my friends...
April 26th, 2012
1:11 pm
Normal, the tds of this country are reduced to contrived, wholesale slurs and lies.
Limbaugh, Hannity and O’Reilly have taught them well…
Richard
April 26th, 2012
1:12 pm
Jay,
I don’t agree with you on this. Mostly because a default rate doesn’t account for students that move back home into their parents house in order to make the debt payments. Defaulting is a very minor part of the problem.
The problem with student loans is that the ability of any student to get a loan for the full cost ensures that schools don’t need to attempt any form of cost control in order to compete for customers.
Ironically, the government has a fantastic model for helping students pay for college (that I wish private firms would emulate), the ROTC. Students can have their education payed for on the condition that they work for the payer for some length of time.
Now imagine if a company like GE did this? “We’ll pay for your degree on the condition that you work for us for 3 years afterwards and intern with our company during the summers.” They get to train their own future workforce, the student/parent has less debt, there’s more disposable income…everybody wins.
Normal Free, Plain and Simple
April 26th, 2012
1:13 pm
JamVet – Stay ignorant, my friends…
April 26th, 2012
1:11 pm
Like they say…it’s easier than thinking…
Erwin's cat
April 26th, 2012
1:13 pm
It’s not just the “for profits” that are a problem…the State University system is gaming the system as well… both in student loans and HOPE…free money is free money
Looney Bin
April 26th, 2012
1:16 pm
Isn’t it funny – when the topic comes to providing people with assistance you hear some types saying they should simply pick themselves up by their bootstraps and take responsibility for their own situation. Yet for other things like jobs or cheap gas, these same folks demand to know why Obama hasn’t provided them with jobs or cheap gas.
Just goes to show that not everything is black and white, but rather so many shades of gray…
Scooter
April 26th, 2012
1:17 pm
If a grown individual decides to take out a loan to attend a “predatory” for profit school, it is the individuals responsibility, not the schools. Why is it so often professed that “predatory profit seeking” absolves individuals and the government of their responsibility?
iRun
April 26th, 2012
1:17 pm
Hmm, and the cost of education is so high now, even at state schools. Yet, professors are having pay freezes and furlough days. Where is that money going?
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
1:20 pm
Jobless or overextended college graduates aren’t even allowed to declare bankruptcy — a privilege that’s extended to every reckless investor and mismanaged corporation in the nation. Once they finally find work, college graduates face years of garnished wages to repay the loans that funded their often-overpriced educations. If they haven’t repaid that debt by the time they grow old — a very real possibility at the cost of a college education today — they’ll even be forced to surrender part of their Social Security benefits.
Wow. Their social security can even be tapped to pay back those loans. Talk about being owned. Yet other people at least have the option of bankruptcy court. Unless you’re someone like Tom Graves or Chip Rogers, et al. Then all you need is someone stupid enough to “loan” you the money.
Tundra Dude
April 26th, 2012
1:24 pm
If they don’t want government regulation, then don’t take government money. That would solve everything very quickly.
BINGO!
kayaker 71
April 26th, 2012
1:27 pm
Just watched that ridiculous You Tube video of Bozo on the Jimmy Fallon show. The curtain parts, the Messiah steps forward to raucous applause from who else….. a audience full of young people. The image of “cool”. That’s about all that many of these young voters pay any attention to any more. Hell, all he needed was his pants down around the crack in his butt, a new ball cap put on a little to the side complete with price tag, some $300 sneakers but not tied with shoe strings, a gold chain or two and some ebonics lessons. And that’s cool. This empty suit has nothing else.
Poor Boy from Alabama
April 26th, 2012
1:27 pm
JB @ 12:53
I’m going to respectfully disagree on a couple of points:
1. Many analysts think there is a student debt bubble. Even Consumer Reports is getting in on the act. Their May 2012 edition includes a story titled “Student debt: Your threat; It can have an impact on the entire economy” As you pointed out, the amount of student debt outstanding is now close to $1 trillion. It actually exceeds the amount of outstanding credit card debt.
2. A recent Associated Press story noted that almost half of new college graduates are either unemployed or under employed. Unless many of these unemployed and underemployed new graduates find good jobs, it’s highly likely that many of them will default on their loans.
3. Students at public and private non-profit schools receive the bulk of federal student loans. While it’s true that students at for-profit schools tend to borrow more money, there are fewer of them (See Table 12). As you pointed out, they account for less than one third of those receiving federal loans.
What do you think happens to the 46% of college students who attend 4-year public institutions and the 35% of students who attend private non-profit institutions that don’t graduate in six years? How do they pay back their loans? I doubt that many of them end up in high paying professions or that they make substantially more than the kids who didn’t graduate from private for-profit institutions. They may have smaller loan balances, but they represent a much bigger risk pool, both in terms of the dollars outstanding and the number of former students.
Any way you slice it, higher education is not performing especially well these days.
JamVet - Stay ignorant, my friends...
April 26th, 2012
1:28 pm
Normal, the neocons have perfected the art-form of playing stupid. It is their sheer hatred of liberals, Democrats, foreigners and non-Republicans that drives them to make up these juvenile stereotypes.
How many Occupy protesters have there been in dozens if not hundreds of US cities over these many months?
Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands?
And exactly how many rapes have been confirmed that were committed by the Occupy protesters?
How many cop cars defecated on?
How many crimes in total?
A MINISCULE percentage.
But to these willfully ignorant rubes, THAT is the ONLY thing that they can puke up.
Not the patriotic, American duty to engage in what Thomas Paine lauded as Civil Disobedience. Not the obvious injustice and crushing of the working class in this country for four straight decades. Not the horrific anti-American plutocracy and accumulation of more and more and more wealth into fewer and fewer and fewer hands. Not the whole sell sell off of our sacred sovereignty to BIG multinational business. Not the plethora of legitimate reasons to say “NO MORE!”
Feces and alleged rapes. That is what td and the GOP is reduced to…
Mad Max
April 26th, 2012
1:29 pm
The Republican-led House has generally taken the position that trying to reduce abuse of federal student-loan programs by proprietary schools amounts to government regulation of private enterprise
And what did the Pelosi led House do about it when they had control? I don’t know the answer, but since we still have the problem, I assume they also took the Ostrich approach.
carlosgvv
April 26th, 2012
1:30 pm
There are some countries that give all their high-school students extensive apptitude and IQ tests. The best and brightest are sent to various universities at no cost and are allowed to learn as much as they can. These countries would not DREAM of letting this kind of talent go unused because of college costs. Unfortunately. the US is not one of these countries.
Mary Elizabeth
April 26th, 2012
1:31 pm
To drive home the points from my earlier post:
“As documented in this report, the default rates on most institutional loans are shockingly high. The schools seem to view these loans more as ‘loss leaders’ to keep the federal dollars flowing…”
“(The NCLC also points out the great discrepancy in executive pay at for-profit colleges, noting that ‘the chairman and CEO of the for-profit education company Strayer Education was paid $41.9 million in 2009, 26 times the compensation of the highest-paid president of a traditional university.’)”
And from the link above:
” ‘Regulators Must Provide Aggressive Oversight of Institutional Loans’
Institutional loan products have generally fallen through regulatory cracks. Regulators,
both state and federal, must evaluate institutional loan programs and enforce relevant laws. . .
Federal and state regulators should review institutional loan programs for possible violations of unfair and deceptive consumer protection laws.”
http://www.studentloanborrowerassistance.org/blogs/wp-content/www.studentloanborrowerassistance.org/uploads/File/proprietary-schools-loans.pdf
=========================================
Without proper governmental regulation, the housing bubble was created and crashed. Without proper legislative oversight, two wars were started in the past decade, with the funding for them unaccounted for. Without proper governmental regulation, tax dollars will continue to flow to private universities, via students loans which may, knowingly, end up being defaulted by those same private universities. As was emphasized, in the article above, this situation is similar to the unregulated housing bubble.
Both a result of a culture whose priority has become greed.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
1:32 pm
I don’t know the answer…
I’ll act shocked and awed if it will make you feel any better.
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
1:34 pm
barking frog
April 26th, 2012
12:54 pm
All education should be
free.
_______
That was idea of Huey (The Kingfish) Long. You are not from Lousiania are you. You name should have been a clue. Lot’s of frogs down there.
269 more days
April 26th, 2012
1:35 pm
amvet
It is a good thing that polical party’s aren’t classified as a “race”, because if they were you would be one hell of a “racist”
godless heathen©
April 26th, 2012
1:35 pm
I saw the libbie hero Rachel Maddow interview the Sec of Ed, Arne Duncan, on her show. Her first question to Arne was, “Why has the cost of college tuition risen so much, faster even than health care costs?” I perked up, thinking, “Great question!”. Alas, ol’ Arne, answered something about the States needing to step and pay their share of the costs and loan rates need to remain low. Totally dodged the question, and I wonder why he didn’t want to answer it. But did good old tough interviewer Rachel call him on his dodge and make him give an answer to the question? Of course not – Arne is on her side of the aisle.
They BOTH suck
April 26th, 2012
1:36 pm
Kayaker
Would Leno and Lettermen be ok?
in other words
April 26th, 2012
1:36 pm
folks, if you get degrees in fields such as poetry, you will be moving back in with mom and dad or working a low wage job at McDonalds.
Mad Max
April 26th, 2012
1:36 pm
JamVet – Stay ignorant, my friends…
I think there were probably the same number of similar issues concrening the tea party stereotypes dreamt up by people on the same blogs so I don’t think it’s a “neo-con” thing. It’s more a gossip type thing. Everything gets exaggerated by people pushing their own agenda and trying to smear and demean other “non believers” (left or right)
I remember
April 26th, 2012
1:37 pm
Not only did some want the government to be in the business of guaranteeing and subsidizing student loans, but they also think the government should regulate which businesses might be allowed to benefit from thier largesse.
I say get out of all public guarantees of student loans and force the schools to manage tuition to reasonable levels. Student loan guarantees ( and the HOPE for that matter) have been a massive force to encourage ever higher tuition and ever more boated universitites.
Mad Max
April 26th, 2012
1:37 pm
Kamchak – Thanks!
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
1:39 pm
godless heathen©
April 26th, 2012
1:35 pm
____
The idea of expecting a pol to answer a question seems somehow anti_American.
They BOTH suck
April 26th, 2012
1:41 pm
It will be ok godless……….. It will be ok
Just tune into Hanitty on Fox or listen to one of numerous right leaning talk shows if you want to see softballs thrown from the other side
It goes on from all sides…….. I promise it does……… Just have to be willing to call it out when it is on YOUR side
They BOTH suck
April 26th, 2012
1:42 pm
Mad max @ 1:36
Great point
Bruno
April 26th, 2012
1:42 pm
Jay–In reading your article, I was reminded that I did receive a Pell Grant back in the day, so I can’t claim to have never received direct govt assistance. I don’t recall the amount, I think it was in the $1000 to $2000 range per year. Of course, when I consider the amount of taxes I’ve paid since then, I would have to guess that the Feds have gotten the better end of the deal.
Of course, when I attended Harvey Mudd College, the tuition + room and board was approximately $8000 per year. Not bad for an Ivy League level school. Now, nearly 34 years later, tuition + room and board is about $58,000. I believe most of the profs are pulling down $200,000 per year each.
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
1:44 pm
Student Loan Asset-Backed Securities have the appropriate acronym, SLABs, because they cling to the indebted until they’re on one.
Bruno
April 26th, 2012
1:44 pm
I saw the libbie hero Rachel Maddow interview the Sec of Ed, Arne Duncan, on her show. Her first question to Arne was, “Why has the cost of college tuition risen so much, faster even than health care costs?”
heathen–I don’t know the average salary for profs around the country, but $200,000 per year eats up a lot of tuition.
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
1:46 pm
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
1:44 pm
______
The feds can collect by seizing tax refunds and garishment of wages. And the loans can’t be erased by bankruptcy. They can stay there a long time.
Don't Tread
April 26th, 2012
1:47 pm
“everybody should get a college degree” mentality + grade inflation in high school + third party pay + liberal control of public schools + too many liberals in government = this mess.
But of course, the real problem is “certain people have too much freedom”, and the solution is always “take away some freedom”, just like any other subject on this blog.
They BOTH suck
April 26th, 2012
1:47 pm
Bruno
Not speaking for profs as a whole, but do you think Harvey pays their profs 200k because they could go elsewhere? another high profile school or even the private sector
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
1:47 pm
Bruno
Did you ever solve the meebo problem?
If not, I have the solution.
Bruno
April 26th, 2012
1:47 pm
“Smokin’ cigarettes and watching Captain Kangaroo, don’t tell me I’ve got nothing to do”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s8nRL2bPCU
If any of you haven’t heard this song, it’s hilarious ^^^^^^^^
Bruno
April 26th, 2012
1:48 pm
Did you ever solve the meebo problem?
If not, I have the solution.
No luck so far, Kam. Lay it on me…….
And thanks. we may butt heads here on occasion, but you’re alright in my book.
They BOTH suck
April 26th, 2012
1:49 pm
Bruno
Those of us in the Southenr Tribe all know that tune
Just kidding…… If you noticed, I do not get into the tribe conversations
Friends and Family……… yes
Ayn Rant
April 26th, 2012
1:50 pm
The student loan program was a disaster from the beginning. It started life as a political subsidy to banks for “administering” the loans. Now, it’s become another financial crisis.
College/university study is the primary way to develop our most important resource, human knowledge and skill. The great post war economic boom and America’s technical superiority can be attributed to the GI Bill, which helped WW2 veterans get higher education, and to the highly educated immigrants we received from Europe.
Higher education deserves the same priority as national defense. The two are related, since our defense depends on leadership and technology. There is a simple, direct, and effective way to subsidize higher education: just pay the tuition and supplemental expenses of every student maintaining superior grades in any subject that is deemed to be critical to the nation’s future. No loans, no interest, no hassle, just a steady stream of highly qualified young people to sustain American leadership and technology. How to pay for it? Raise the gasoline tax by a penny, initiate a national lottery with profits going to education, tax estate distributions, etc; these things are beneficial in their own right, and too petty to be burdensome.
The US rations higher education according to social connections and ability to pay. Other advanced and advancing nations ration higher education according to ability and willingness to learn serious subjects. We graduate more lawyers, political “scientists”, and business “administrators”. They graduate more engineers, scientists, teachers, doctors, and artists.
Let’s drag ourselves out of the 20th century, leave behind the myths about “small government” and “low taxes”, and face the 21st century with open minds, good sense, and eagerness to correct our failures.
Bud Wiser
April 26th, 2012
1:50 pm
The Republican-led House has generally taken the position that trying to reduce abuse of federal student-loan programs by proprietary schools amounts to government regulation of private enterprise.
Now, substitute a few words in this phrase for re-interpretation….
The ‘Democrat’-led ‘Senate’ has generally taken the position that trying to reduce abuse of federal ‘medicare-medicaid’ programs by hospitals and doctors’ amounts to government regulation of private enterprise.
I guess there’s no problem there, eh?
It depends on whose tureen is getting pi**ed into.
They BOTH suck
April 26th, 2012
1:50 pm
meant to say Southern Tribe
They BOTH suck
April 26th, 2012
1:51 pm
“It depends on whose tureen is getting pi**ed into.”
There is validity to that on both sides for sure
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
1:52 pm
A few minutes psent on google will show that the average salery of a professor at a public university or college in Georgia is below $100,000.00. don’t think they are overpaid.
Bruno
April 26th, 2012
1:52 pm
Not speaking for profs as a whole, but do you think Harvey pays their profs 200k because they could go elsewhere? another high profile school or even the private sector
For sure it’s an elite school, and they attract some of the best and the brightest. A few years ago, I got to hang out with Art Benjamin, their star mathematics professor, for an afternoon. Super cool guy. His math knowledge made me feel like a Kindergartner by comparison. He’s also a well known magician and a world class Backgammon player.
http://www.math.hmc.edu/~benjamin/
Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)
April 26th, 2012
1:53 pm
That doesn’t make a lot of sense, Bud. Go have another foreign-owned beer.
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
1:55 pm
Average pay for full professors nationwide at private universities if $99,000. Still less that $100,000.
godless heathen©
April 26th, 2012
1:55 pm
I expect a pol to dodge a question, but I read here all the time how great Rachel Maddow is. I was surprised he let him slide like that.
So They Both Suck, if Hannity does it it’s ok for Rachel. I thought _YOUR side_ was better.
Bruno, I would like to have heard Duncan’s answer. Is a large chunk of it salaries? Would the reason Duncan wouldn’t want to answer is that lefty college professors are big supporters of the President.?
stands for decibels
April 26th, 2012
1:57 pm
A few minutes psent on google will show that the average salery of a professor at a public university or college in Georgia is below $100,000.00. don’t think they are overpaid.
are they including the adjuncts who do most of the heavy lifting, these days, in those compensation averages?
godless heathen©
April 26th, 2012
1:57 pm
sorry, “she” not “he”. How could I have made that mistake?
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
1:58 pm
Bruno
Assuming you acquired the Adblock extension,
Click on the FF tab at the top left of the browser
Click on Add ons
Click on the Options tab for Adblock
Click on the Filter Preference… box
Click on the Custom Filters tab
Add ||*meebo.com/*
Click on Enabled
That’s how I did it this morning.
JamVet - Stay ignorant, my friends...
April 26th, 2012
2:00 pm
It is a good thing that polical party’s aren’t classified as a “race”, because if they were you would be one hell of a “racist”
Brilliant. Reminds me of the line, if a frog had wings, he wouldn’t bump his all all of the time.
Mad Max, fair enough.
Whatever it is, it’s time to relegate it back to the the sixth grade…
Bruno
April 26th, 2012
2:01 pm
Average pay for full professors nationwide at private universities if $99,000. Still less that $100,000.
Let’s just round that out to $100,000 for convenience, Oscar. By comparison, most MD’s (i.e. general practitioners) earn about $140,000. Most MDs put in long hours and take few vacations. College profs likely don’t exceed 40 hrs per week during the school year, and get beaucoup vacations.
I shoulda became a prof.
They BOTH suck
April 26th, 2012
2:01 pm
godless
I have only watched Rachel one time and that was when Jay was on it……..
Couldn’t tell you what that she was good or bad…….. I know she is liberal and like most COMMENTARY shows she would probably let a left leaning politician slide…….
I watch more Fox than any channel and listen to probably an hour of right wing talk radio a week (that would be 1 hour over several instances not at one sitting: I would die from laughter)
My whole point is that it is pointless to say that a left or right leaning commentary show gives a pass to someone within the same ideology……… yes even during an interview
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
2:01 pm
Average salery of a full professor at Harvard if $198,000.00. Nice gig.
JamVet - Stay ignorant, my friends...
April 26th, 2012
2:02 pm
…ass all of the time.
(Damn double tasking…_
Bruno
April 26th, 2012
2:03 pm
Kam–I think that I followed all of those steps last night. Maybe I didn’t press the “Enabled” key. Will try again, thanks. I’m not trusting this meebo bar.
Catch you guys tomorrow. All except JamVet. of course. Gonna have to show him how the Cons party one more time tonight………
JamVet - Stay ignorant, my friends...
April 26th, 2012
2:04 pm
99K a year?
Chump change.
We have CEOs that make that much a day…
They BOTH suck
April 26th, 2012
2:04 pm
godless
I’ve read on here how great Limbuagh and Hanitty are on here, but I would assume most of those touting them know they are not getting but one side of the story…….. At least I hope they know that
same goes for Maddow, Oberman, etc, etc
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
2:04 pm
Bruno
April 26th, 2012
2:01 pm
___
One of my daughters had the choice of med school or going toward become a professor. She chose the later. I was happy she did. She is an associate professor now but seems to be on track.
They BOTH suck
April 26th, 2012
2:05 pm
Bruno
Be safe driving and enjoy the show
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
2:05 pm
Maybe I didn’t press the “Enabled” key.
Yeah, that’s where I failed last night, too.
Damn, the page loads so much faster now….
stands for decibels
April 26th, 2012
2:07 pm
average adjunct prof looks to be around 55K/year.
http://www.salaryblog.org/930/adjunct-professor-salary/#axzz1tAffd3BT
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
2:09 pm
stands for decibels
April 26th, 2012
2:07 pm
_______
If you don’t make tenure and become a full professor you are pretty much out of luck. Ever see the movie Who’s afraid of Virginia Wolfe.
stands for decibels
April 26th, 2012
2:10 pm
If you don’t make tenure and become a full professor you are pretty much
… a typical instructor at an institution of higher learning, looks like.
Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")
April 26th, 2012
2:12 pm
Make it free. Is that the new answer to everything?
Cosby
April 26th, 2012
2:13 pm
You missed the entire point Jay…first, why, especially the tax payer supported institutions, have been allowed to go unchecked in raising tuition, fees housing etc. They do it at will with no repercussions. Second, as with the housing market, the government has made it very easy for the loans to be acquired without any consideration, as you point out, how they will be paid back. And guess what happened to the housing market. this is another bubble that is about to burst on the economic grid and it, again, will be perputrated by The federal Government. time to hold the institutions of higher learning accountable, time for the Federal government to use some common sense when allowing tax payer money to be used for loans. Now you know the truth. And yes, the higher institutions have a great ponzi scheme going
Jack
April 26th, 2012
2:14 pm
Somehow I managed to get through school without a loan or a grant: seems that’s out of vogue now.
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
2:15 pm
Cosby
April 26th, 2012
2:13 pm
_______
We have fewer and fewer males attending college now. Bubble may be about to burst.
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
2:15 pm
Not to worry. The Republican solution for all you unionized overcompensated teachers is to put you all to work for a for-profit private institution for half the compensation so the executives and shareholders can make a decent tax-free living off of you. Now don’t you feel so much better.
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
2:16 pm
Jack
April 26th, 2012
2:14 pm
Somehow I managed to get through school without a loan or a grant: seems that’s out of vogue now.
_____
Not out of vogue. Just that the prices are so high it’s out of reach.
Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")
April 26th, 2012
2:16 pm
“Somehow I managed to get through school without a loan or a grant: seems that’s out of vogue now.
That’s no longer cool.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
2:16 pm
And guess what happened to the housing market.
There’s no guess work involved, sport.
Private mortgage companies were writing sub-prime loans as fast as they could and sold them to Wall Street to be bundled as fraudulent AAA rated investments.
Michael
April 26th, 2012
2:17 pm
Simple fix: get the government out of higher education financing. Anytime the government gets involved in an industry sector, the price for those services are sure to rise. In Georgia, no one makes a fuss anymore when the Board of Regents hikes tuition. Why? Because the Lottery pays for a large portion of the tuition, even though the Hope Scholarship is going broke. As far as those for profit moocher universities? Take the federal corporate welfare away and the market will quickly determine those universities that are offering a good value to the students.
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
2:18 pm
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
2:15 pm
______
That is their plan. Cut down funding to public education. Small government is better. Less education must also be better. cut back of reseach and development. Let China and other countries waste their tax money on those things.
stands for decibels
April 26th, 2012
2:18 pm
good ol’ Merika, where providing an education at little or no out of pocket cost to the student is considered radicalism to some.
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
2:19 pm
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
2:16 pm
___
And then when then scheme collasped, they blamed the government for lack of regulation of their frauc.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
2:20 pm
Oscar – Not out of reach, I was able to do it. I went to Georgia Tech full time, and worked pretty close to full time for most of the time I was there, yet somehow I managed to graduate without having to take out student loans.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
2:21 pm
Oscar
No, they still falsely blame Fannie, Freddie and the CRA.
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
2:22 pm
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
2:20 pm
_______
Ambitions, hardworking overachievers can still do it.
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
2:23 pm
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
2:21 pm
___
Yes, that also.
Mick
April 26th, 2012
2:24 pm
yaker
Your last post about obama on jimmy fallon; You think someone might get the idea that you are a tad close to the racism stereotype? Pathetic take on an entertainment show appearance, but then again not surprising to see your true colors come out…
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
2:25 pm
Oscar – And that is a bad thing? I mean, I wear my “nerd badge” pretty proudly, and would gladly be called an overachiever, but I’m not sure how you mean it. It almost seems like you’re criticizing me for my ambition and hard work?
Penny Pincher
April 26th, 2012
2:25 pm
Ayn Rant
April 26th, 2012
1:50 pm
good post with some great solutions
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
2:27 pm
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
2:25 pm
__________
I was afraid my comment might be taken that way. I should have left out the word overachiever – does have a negative connation.
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
2:30 pm
Or let’s say it can be taken in a negative way. I don’t see it as a negative, but some people do.
Adam
April 26th, 2012
2:30 pm
Santelli: “Do you want to pay for your child’s student loans?!?!?! HELL NO!!! STAND UP!! WE’RE GONNA HAVE A TEA PARTY ABOUT THIS!”
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
2:34 pm
Adam
April 26th, 2012
2:30 pm
_____
Depends on whether or not you think parents should pay for their children’s education. Some do and some don’t.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
2:34 pm
Oscar – I don’t mind being called that. I just don’t understand how kids think they’re entitled to an education, and don’t feel like they have to work to achieve it. There is a huge disconnect between kids and reality, and a lot of them don’t understand when they go to college and take out student loans that they’re required to pay them back. I’m thinking it would be better for little Johnny or Susie to spend the four years they would have spent at college “trying to figure out who they are” working in a mill or something instead of partying.
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
2:34 pm
Perhaps student loan debt is the one form of security that warrants a AAA rating since the debt cannot be relieved via bankruptcy and it even follows you throughout your work life via a garnishment of wages and ultimately even to garnishment of social security benefits. I’m surprised the law has not been further modified to require the indebted’s relatives to pick up the tab if unpaid at death. I don’t know of any other form of debt that has such a choke hold on the indebted one.
Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")
April 26th, 2012
2:35 pm
As long as everything should be free, how about having the government send someone over to cut my lawn this weekend. It needs a treatment for weeds as well.
Thank you.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
2:38 pm
TaxPayer – Yeah, its almost like we should just forgive you for making stupid decisions and let you walk away from paying for something you took out knowingly.
However, if you go into teaching for a certain amount of time, at least part, if not all (I can’t remember the rules exactly) of your student loan debt is forgiven.
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
2:39 pm
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
2:34 pm
____
At one time bonds secured by student loans did have a AAA rating. That was before the market on them froze and they dopped over half their value, and some could not be sold at all. At least one national company listed on the NY stock exchange went bankrupt anc countless people lost their life savings. Look up auction securities secured by student loans.
Don't Tread
April 26th, 2012
2:41 pm
As long as everything is free, there’s an empty space in my driveway that needs to be fixed…
..with a Ferrari.
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
2:42 pm
Enter your comments hereir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
2:34 pm
_______
I think it depends a lot on the family values and the family financies. I did the kind on work you described during summers when I was in school. It helped motivate me to stay in school, but my parents picked up the tab.
I agree that a lot of kids waste their parents money and their time in school when they should be doing something else. Lots of kids graduate with degrees that they never use.
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
2:47 pm
irrational,
your reply came across as though you were assuming that I had student loan debt and that I was complaining about having amassed said dabt. If that was your assumption then you would be incorrect.
barking frog
April 26th, 2012
2:47 pm
Oscar
first 18 yrs in TN, 4 in USAF,
in GA since, although I
spend winters in FL.
Mary Elizabeth
April 26th, 2012
2:50 pm
Taxpayer, 2:15
“Not to worry. The Republican solution for all you unionized overcompensated teachers is to put you all to work for a for-profit private institution for half the compensation so the executives and shareholders can make a decent tax-free living off of you. Now don’t you feel so much better.”
=================================================
Very true words you write, Taxpayer. Also, “the Republican solution” is to remove teachers’ retirement benefits. Read below a few remarks I made on Maureen Downey’s blog, in this regard, yesterday:
————————————————
“If schools were to become private entities instead of part of a public system, then teachers within those individual schools will become ‘free agents’ who will have to secure their own retirement funds because there will no longer be a Teacher Retirement System, or a unified healthcare system for all public school teachers.
With this changing dynamic, teachers will be leaving the schools at 3:15 pm to take second jobs in order to build their own retirement portfolios since they will have to secure their own retirement monies for themselves, alone, and their salaries will not be great enough to save for retirement without a second job. Teachers will change from being public servants, whose primary energy and time are given to students, within and outside of school hours, to becoming free agents who must, by necessity, ‘look after number one.’
Does the general public really want the public schools to turn into business enterprises which will create that type of teacher? How America has changed in 40 years. . .”
and
“Proper balance will control excesses of any type – financial, emotional, social. The governmental, public sector has its proper place in American society, as does the private, business sector. Only ideologues refuse to give each their proper due. Each sector balances the other. We must restore balance to our nation.”
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
2:50 pm
Oscar – Probably does depend on family values a lot. I didn’t go to school to party (obviously, I went to GT, we don’t do too much of that there), but I had a lot of friends who felt that was what college was supposed to be. Actually have an aunt that is seriously worried about both my wife and I because we both managed to make it through school without joining a frat or sorority and didn’t feel the need to party the entire time. I don’t get the idea of going to a school, especially not an expensive one, for four+ years with the intention of partying, wasting your time and your parent’s (or your) money and coming out not being able to do anything useful because you got a degree in women’s studies or whatever. I’m not saying I was perfect in college, far from it, but I at least focused on getting a degree I could use.
Generation$crewed
April 26th, 2012
2:52 pm
I was on full scholarship, all fees, room 21 meals per week, all books. Everything was paid for.
However I took out around 1000 per semester in student loans. Simply because it was easy to get money. Eventhough I had no need for it what-so-ever. We did have some nice parties with it and I ate some good meals too. My favorite was the video games and shoes.
Now I know for a fact I was not the only person of FULL rides doing this. Most got more than me. I quit doing this after my junior year and figured out how dumb of an idea it was and instead just got a work study job. I pay each and every payment usually more than the min. But how many are there going into default for this reason.
My point is possibly a complete restructuring of the student loan process. There are many loop holes that allow those without actual need appear to be in need according to their fafsa. Maybe make the work study option is a better way for students without need to have access to cash without having to compete in the public workforce. Also allowing for much more flexablity with their class schedule. Instead of taking the risk of giving them free money and hoping they pay up later. But be confident that for profit colleges are not the only ones taking advantage of the system and its rules.
Or we could act as if 30% of the problem is the issue and not the system itself.
James Thomas
April 26th, 2012
2:54 pm
Mary Elizabeth
Its called a free market. If the job sucks, teachers are free to leave. When the schools have no teachers, they attract them with things like higher wages and benefits.
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
2:55 pm
irrational,
how can you be so certain when entering college that by time you graduate there will not have been some major study completed confirming the lifesaving properties associated with chairs constructed by means of underwater weaving techniques available through select schools of higher learning, I asks ya.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
2:55 pm
TaxPayer – No, my response was merely pointing out that maybe we’re able to get out from under all types of legitimate debts a little too easily, and we should be required to pay them back. I don’t care one way or the other if you have student loan debt or not, it isn’t really germane to the argument. I’m just saying, you take the loans out, yeah, you should have to pay them back. Just like if I go out and spend $25,000 on my credit cards, I should have to pay them back. I shouldn’t be able to go to court and say “oops, I messed up, maybe you could just tell the credit card companies that I’m sorry, didn’t mean it, and I’m only going to pay them $5,000 of the money they lent me.” I agree with structuring payments through bankruptcy, but I think that is all it should be for, basically freeze your credit, structure payments on your debt until everything is paid off, then you’re on your own.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
2:57 pm
TaxPayer – Just a hunch I have. I’m guessing a women’s studies, or underwater basket weaving degree won’t be much use outside the hippy commune.
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
2:57 pm
Does the general public really want the public schools to turn into business enterprises which will create that type of teacher?
I don’t know about the general public but I would certainly venture a guess that those touting conservative/libertarian credentials certainly do.
Normal Free, Plain and Simple
April 26th, 2012
2:58 pm
.One of NOM’s Top Secret Donors Revealed: Mitt Romney
We often talk about how hard NOM works to hide their donors – even if it means circumventing the law – but now, we’ve learned the identity of one of their high-profile financial supporters: Mitt Romney.
Financial documents obtained by HRC reveal that Mitt Romney donated $10,000 to the National Organization for Marriage in 2008 – essentially funding NOM’s strategy of using racial division and unfounded scare tactics to attack LGBT equality, at the same time that NOM was fighting for Prop 8 in California.
Join HRC in calling on Mitt Romney to immediately denounce NOM’s divisive strategy. Act now.
The money came via Romney’s “Free and Strong America” PAC during a time when NOM was heavily engaged in passing Proposition 8. HRC reviewed copies of Romney’s Free and Strong America PAC’s filings with the Federal Election Commission – and no contribution to NOM was disclosed in those documents. The filings are available from the FEC. But, HRC did discover an Alabama-based “Free and Strong America” PAC that in 2008 does disclose the $10,000 contribution to NOM. Available on page 3 at: http://arc-sos.state.al.us/PEL/SOSELPDF.001/E0090860.PDF.
The evidence continues to pile up and is painting a very clear picture of Mitt Romney’s anti-LGBT associations. A candidate can’t claim to be “better for gay rights than [Ted] Kennedy” when it’s convenient, but then fund a far-right anti-LGBT strategy to keep other interest groups happy. Act now and tell Romney to denounce NOM’s strategy.
.
Jm
April 26th, 2012
2:59 pm
Moral of the story
When you’re spending someone else’s money, you don’t think as hard about whether it is a good idea or not
Student loans should be results based, not “need based”, if they have to exist
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:01 pm
Normal – OMG NO! Surely we don’t have a candidate actually supporting causes that align with his personal and religious beliefs. Alert the media, we need to destroy him!
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
3:01 pm
irrational,
but what of Tom Graves’ and Chip Roger’s legal council’s argument that if the lender was stupid enough to lend it to them then hold the lender accountable, not them! Should politicians, for example, not set examples for the rules of law that they proclaim to hold so tightly to their frail little chests.
Generation$crewed
April 26th, 2012
3:02 pm
Mary Elizabeth,
Its crazy how teachers at current private schools seem to find a way to retire. Or do all of them have 2nd jobs as well.
Cause funny how my hs coach had retired from a private school and was collecting while also getting his salary from our public hs.
And I can’t once remember him talking about having to have a 2nd job to be able to retire from the private side???
Jefferson
April 26th, 2012
3:02 pm
When it comes to loans and borrowing, the responsibility for non repayment should always go back to the lender. Don’t lend unless there is collateral or you can pay the bad ones with profits from the good ones. Its sad that people can’t always repay due to unseen items, but the lender should beware. You can’t lose what you never had.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:04 pm
TaxPayer – I didn’t see a qualifier in my argument, so I must have meant that those standards should apply to everyone.
rightwing troll
April 26th, 2012
3:07 pm
It’s a all Barney Franks fault.
Thomas
April 26th, 2012
3:07 pm
Bernanke Takes On Krugman’s Criticism Ignoring Own Advice
Don’t favor either but Krugman is a complete poser- it is about time someone shot back at him.
Normal Free, Plain and Simple
April 26th, 2012
3:09 pm
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:01 pm
I agree he needs to be taken down. Any man or woman who is not “confunded” by religious myths, would support the idea of equal rights for ALL human beings.
As in Mitts case, he has no anchor and will go where his political advantage takes him. If elected, he will be a disaster.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:12 pm
Normal – If you didn’t catch it from the
, my response was sarcastic. I find it refreshing to see people actually standing up for what they believe in. While I agree that religion is largely (or fully) mythical, it helps people sleep at night, and I don’t feel the need to make fun of others for having convictions I don’t. And, I would argue that he seems to have a fairly large anchor in the Mormon Church, but that is his personal business, not mine.
Union
April 26th, 2012
3:15 pm
fun little tool..
http://chronicle.com/article/faculty-salaries-data-2012/131431#id=110635
in addition to salaries.. funded retirement plans at some places..
“Under the retirement plans, after a six-month waiting period, faculty and most staff under age 40 receive a monthly contribution equal to 5 percent of salary, and those over age 40 receive a contribution equal to 10 percent of salary. (Contributions are increased for earnings above the Social Security wage base.) Faculty and staff choose where to invest these contributions from a selection of high-quality options. To help you make better investment decisions, Harvard offers free, lunch-time seminars for all employees on financial planning and investment topics.”
etc.. etc.. etc..
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
3:15 pm
I didn’t see a qualifier in my argument, so I must have meant that those standards should apply to everyone.
Too bad our politicians do not all agree with you.
Normal Free, Plain and Simple
April 26th, 2012
3:16 pm
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:12 pm
I understand that, but I had figured you more into equal rights for all than your post had indicated. I’m slow, so the next time you do sarcasm, use a winky face…then I’ll get it.
carlosgvv
April 26th, 2012
3:17 pm
Jay, a question. If this student loan bubble bursts as did the housing-loan one, will the effects on our economy be the same?
Jay
April 26th, 2012
3:18 pm
“Krugman is a complete poser …”
Yup. For example, here he is posing with his Nobel Prize in economics alongside the King of Norway:
http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1016477.shtml
Union
April 26th, 2012
3:23 pm
Jay
April 26th, 2012
3:18 pm
“Yup. For example, here he is posing with his Nobel Prize in economics alongside the King of Norway..”
didnt obama get one of those for something?
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:26 pm
Normal – I am definitely more for equal rights for all than my post indicated, although, at the same time, I could make the argument that I have no more rights than someone who is gay does. However, having said that, I don’t have a problem with him supporting campaigns he believes in, for whatever reason. I also realize that the president isn’t going to have too much influence on the national debate one way or the other in this realm. It is a state issue, not a national one, and to my mind, what the president thinks on it doesn’t matter much.
Ahem
April 26th, 2012
3:26 pm
Why nothing on the few jobs created or jobless claims today? Any interest in the cost of Michelle’s vacation to Spain? Nothing newsworthy in the taxpayers footing Obama’s re-election campaign travel?
Jay
April 26th, 2012
3:27 pm
Carlos, no, it’s not the same kind of thing. It’s not a bubble in the sense of the housing bubble. At worst, money not repaid will have to be covered by the taxpayers, but with the IRS as your collection agent, most of the loans will be covered one way or the other. The real impact is in the hardship it inflicts on students and the lost buying power as money goes to repaying the loans instead of buying cars, etc.
Jm
April 26th, 2012
3:28 pm
Krugman got the bernanke smackdown yesterday
Normal Free, Plain and Simple
April 26th, 2012
3:28 pm
“didnt obama get one of those for something?”
Yes, and I disagreed with his keeping it, but I still support him.
Normal Free, Plain and Simple
April 26th, 2012
3:29 pm
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:26 pm
Fair enough and understandable…still friends?
Jm
April 26th, 2012
3:29 pm
Jay 3:27 not quite true
Under Obama IRS now writes the loans off after 20 years sticking taxpayers with the bill
Of course, not a problem for the non taxpayers out there
St Simons - we're on Island time
April 26th, 2012
3:31 pm
Nobel envy, cons. Its so unattractive.
barking frog
April 26th, 2012
3:32 pm
Obama deserved the Nobel
prize just for defeating
the Clinton machine.
Mary Elizabeth
April 26th, 2012
3:33 pm
James Thomas, 2:54 pm
“Mary Elizabeth
Its called a free market. If the job sucks, teachers are free to leave. When the schools have no teachers, they attract them with things like higher wages and benefits.”
=============================================
Why not simply improve traditional public education rather than traumatically dismantling it, altogether, and creating, in its place, a “free market” educational system – the results of which would be unknown?
I suspect that that more rational, and balanced, educational improvement approach has not been forthcoming because it has not been acceptable to “free market” ideologues, who control organizations such as ALEC. They want to dismantle, entirely, public service-based education for their self-interested, private and profit-based educational endeavors. In other words, they have no problem with using children for profit, and teachers as commodies to their self-interested financial ends.
See below:
“If anyone seriously thinks that the ‘free market,’ alone, is the answer to financial stability for our nation, please view a rerun of this past week’s two hour broadcast, entitled, ‘Frontline: Money, Power, and Wall Street, Part 1,’ on PBS – TV. Part 2 of this program will be broadcast May 1. This broadcast will open many eyes. Even Alan Greenspan admitted to a need to adjust his financial (ideological) preconceptions, late in his life.”
They BOTH suck
April 26th, 2012
3:37 pm
why did someone fail to mention that it was 25 yrs and dropped to 20? guess attempting to give the appearance that it was totally new thing
Sort of like those deficit to GDP fake numbers
no surprise
Typically day……. typically BS
barking frog
April 26th, 2012
3:38 pm
Even Alan
Greenspan admitted to a
need to adjust his financial
(ideological) preconceptions,
late in his life.”
————–
so did Bernie Madoff.
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
3:39 pm
Jm
April 26th, 2012
3:29 pm
_____
Collection on written notes and debts generally have a twenty year statute of limitations, as does enforecment of a written contract. Generally, there are some exceptions.
G Mare 71( got the living' the red state BLUES!)
April 26th, 2012
3:40 pm
The Clinton machine?
The Fresh Prince of BIll Ayers
April 26th, 2012
3:40 pm
It’s kinda like congressmen and senators. They spend millions of their own money to get elected for a couple hundred thousand dollar job. I should be able to drop 100k at the Art Institute to learn how to be a chef and make 30k a year….
G Mare 71( got the living' the red state BLUES!)
April 26th, 2012
3:41 pm
Oh, the light dawned. Never .mind….
JamVet - Stay ignorant, my friends...
April 26th, 2012
3:41 pm
Secondary edumacation is way overrated.
Virtually every single one of those colleges and universities are nothing but liberal brainwashing factories that teach young adults heresy like Darwin and the earth being 4 billion years old…
Brosephus™
April 26th, 2012
3:41 pm
2. A recent Associated Press story noted that almost half of new college graduates are either unemployed or under employed. Unless many of these unemployed and underemployed new graduates find good jobs, it’s highly likely that many of them will default on their loans.
And when you look at the combination of stagnant wages for the worker class over the past 30-40 years, the major outsourcing of jobs, and the influx of cheap workers by way of work visas, how in the cowboy hell are college graduates supposed to find good jobs? I’m not even gonna mention those with the attitude that they’re not hiring simply because of who lives in the White House. This country is so effed up that people really can’t comprehend how bad it really is.
————————–
(ir)Rational @ 2:34
I just don’t understand how kids think they’re entitled to an education, and don’t feel like they have to work to achieve it.
Well, when you wholeheartedly buy into American Exceptionalism without being explained the “whole” truth behind that, you have people with an inflated self-worth who really have no clue about what hard work really means. Also, when you live in an instant gratification society that gives instant rewards for little to no effort, what else would you expect?
————————–
Generation$crewed
I was on a full ride scholarship, but I didn’t even touch a student loan application. I had a job at home where I worked on the weekends when I went home, and I had a job where I went to school. My last year, I worked as a Res. Asst. and got a stipend from that. I had credit card debt coming out of college, but no student loans.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:42 pm
Normal – Only as long as you’re neither a U(sic)GA or Manchester United fan, otherwise, we’re good.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:45 pm
Bro – Yeah, you make a good point there. Kids these days are full of it. No matter what anyone tells you, there is a generation gap between people my age and those that are coming out of college now. It isn’t as evident when you’re talking about student loans and what not, but if you take the evidence as a whole, it is very evident. I’m hoping that eventually, we’ll get another generation or two that knows how to do good things.
They BOTH suck
April 26th, 2012
3:46 pm
ir(Rational)
If you do not mind me asking, how old are you?
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:49 pm
27
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:50 pm
Sadly, I had to think about that for a second.
I’m too young to be forgetting things that simple.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
3:50 pm
ir(Rational)
If you do not mind me asking, how old are you?
Old enough to know better than to be a Gunners fan.
Just sayin’.
Jefferson
April 26th, 2012
3:51 pm
Some things just can’t change.
Brosephus™
April 26th, 2012
3:52 pm
27
Young whippersnapper….
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
3:52 pm
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:49 pm
___
And you think you are in a different generation from kids coming out of college now. I had to laugh at that. Son, you are one of the kids coming out of college now.
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
3:52 pm
If I could turn back time. Twenty-seven. Good times.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:52 pm
Kam – I won’t ever be old enough for that. And I could say the same about you, you should be old enough to know better than to be a Chelsea fan.
Student Loans And For Profit Schools
April 26th, 2012
3:54 pm
[...] Bookman takes our discussion yesterday regarding student loans and extends it into the area of subsidies for for-profit institutions: In 2009, just 5.2 percent of students who had attended four-year public schools such as Georgia [...]
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
3:55 pm
(ir)Rational — My Blu Lions are playing in the FA Cup final and the UCL final. Which final is Arsenal playing in?
Generation$crewed
April 26th, 2012
3:56 pm
Brosephus™
April 26th, 2012
3:41 pm
Oh I had a job every summer and I’m not advocating doing what I did wish I had not. Was told of an easy way to get money took advantage of it.
My point is reform should be made and measures put in place to make sure those like myself without need don’t get gov backed loans, if we want a loan we should have to go to a bank or financial institution like everyone else.
I worked my entire senior year, and went full time until I graduated while playing overseas. Working and getting an education is not asking the impossible. Wish I had been smart enough to know that at 18
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:57 pm
Oscar – Like I said, it may not be evident to those outside, but the attitudes are definitely different between people my age, and people that were born in the late 80s and early 90s. I don’t know exactly what it is, but it is there. Besides, I’ve been out of college for 4 years.
Bro – Yeah, so?
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:59 pm
Kam – Being a fan of a team isn’t about how many Cups they win, or which finals they’re going to get beaten in, it is about supporting them irrationally no matter what. Besides, I equate being a Arsenal fan to being a Red Sox fan, they’re always going to be good, but they might not (probably won’t) win the championship.
Mighty Righty
April 26th, 2012
4:00 pm
What a surprise! I am shocked! A big government program that has gone awry. Costs more than originally thought. Doesn’t achieve the expected results. Who would have thought?
saywhat?
April 26th, 2012
4:00 pm
My daughter blew it her first year of highschool, more concerned with socializing and Myspace than grades. She turned it around to earn A’s and B’s the next three years, but ended up missing the Hope Schlarship by a few hundredths of a GPA point. Oh well. She took out 15k in loans for her first year of college, applied herself and earned the Hope for the following year.She still borrows a few thousand a year to help cover what her summer jobs don’t for rent and food, so she will be in debt around 25- 30K by the time she graduates. Not awful, but not great either.
The point is that there are still kids willing to put in the work to obtain a college education. It would suck to have loans cost so much more, just when they are needed most.
All these numbnuts in Congress talking about getting rid of the subsidized student loans already got theirs, took advantage of the opportunity it offered, but are now willing to deny that opportunity to others for the sake of pushing ideology over what is best for the nation, much like the manufactured debt limit crisis.
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
4:01 pm
irrational,
I can’t recall now but I seem to remember your mentioning in the past that you graduated from the school of Architecture. Is that correct or am I thinking of someone else?
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
4:02 pm
(ir)Rational
If Jose Mourinho returns to manage Chelsea, I will indeed be an irrational fan.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
4:04 pm
TaxPayer – That’s me.
saywhat?
April 26th, 2012
4:06 pm
I’d like to see the private for profit schools (along with all other schools ) have to pass some kind of accreditation (if they don’t already), which would include a reasonable 6 year graduation rate (50%?) or be denied federal financial aid money, to keep the vultures from milking the system.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
4:06 pm
Since I didn’t get to watch the game the other night, what did Terry do to get the red? Was it deserved (honestly?) or was it just an accumulation of yellows?
Brosephus™
April 26th, 2012
4:06 pm
G$
That’s the benefit of being human, we learn from our mistakes. Some of the financial advisors at my school would tell students not to do that. Some of the good ones would try to find all kinds of grants and stuff to keep you from having to get a loan. I was one of the very first full scholarship students that was allowed into the Resident Assistant program when it was re-started. They tried to ensure as many students got financial assistance that needed it. Since all my stuff was paid for, the room and board part of the RA package was overkill for me. They deducted that from the benefit package for me, and I only got the stipend for working.
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
4:07 pm
irrational,
The reason I ask is wrt when you decided to head down that path, the housing market would have been booming and I’m sure it looked very appealing at the time. How do you feel about your decision now. Would you have chosen a different field if you knew then what you know now or did you follow your dream. Just curious. No underlying gotcha or other motive.
Generation$crewed
April 26th, 2012
4:08 pm
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
3:52 pm
I’m only a few years older than (ir)rational, and I have worked at colleges in athletics since I graduated from college.
There is a shift from when I began and the current time. With the increase in social media and the decrease in actual socialization, there is a gap when much of the information regarding loans and grants. Be that by the students fault or the one giving the information fault.
Also thru the advancement in opinon facts (think twitter, FB, blogs) there is also a mass of misinforation available, leading incoming students to feel more entitled to more, while also learning how to loophole the system in regards to need and how to fill out a fafsa.
Adam
April 26th, 2012
4:08 pm
Union: Obama got the Nobel Peace prize for proposing a specific timetable for Iraq withdrawal while running for office, which was then endorsed by the Iraqi Prime Minister, and then agreed to by Bush, ALL BEFORE BUSH GOT INTO OFFICE.
So, now I can see why you cons think he had some extraordinary influence on everyone and keep calling him the “Messiah.” He really DID have a profound effect before he took office.
In other words, that timetable you keep crediting Bush with? The one for the Iraq withdrawal? The one that Obama implemented and made sure happened by the end of last year? Yep, all Obama. Not Bush’s.
Checkmate.
Towncrier
April 26th, 2012
4:09 pm
Good piece, Jay. Yet another example of government gone wild to all of our expense. For without almost mindless government funding, this would have never happened. How many decades does it take for the government to realize that there are tons of people who willing to do almost anything to milk the system? The reason I think this happens is because for the people who run things in government, it is not their money – so they don’t care like they would if it was. Government is massively inefficient and wasteful.
Brosephus™
April 26th, 2012
4:09 pm
Yeah, so?
We both know what you must do to show you are ready, grasshopper!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gASY7Lj5GPQ
Adam
April 26th, 2012
4:12 pm
Sorry, that should have read all before OBAMA got into office, or all before Bush got out, but I prefer the former. Whoops.
My Party has ALL the answers. Your party is full of poopyheads! (formerly That Black Guy)
April 26th, 2012
4:12 pm
Normal Free, Plain and Simple
April 26th, 2012
3:28 pm
“didnt obama get one of those for something?”
Yes, and I disagreed with his keeping it, but I still support him.
_________________________________________________________
I think the point was Jay pointing out that krugman has a Nobel Prize. The fact that they gave Obama one basically for winning the election shows that the process is based on politics and does not carry the weight it once did.
Adam
April 26th, 2012
4:14 pm
TBG: They gave it to him for proposing a 16 month timeline as Senator, having it endorsed by the Iraqi Prime Minister, and then Bush agreeing to that exact timeline.
Union
April 26th, 2012
4:15 pm
Union: Obama got the Nobel Peace prize for proposing a specific timetable for Iraq withdrawal while running for office, which was then endorsed by the Iraqi Prime Minister, and then agreed to by Bush, ALL BEFORE BUSH GOT INTO OFFICE..
like i said.. something for something that hadnt happened.. something for nothing..
ld
April 26th, 2012
4:16 pm
NO MORE BAILOUTS OF ANY KIND.
If the powers that be want to enable those with students loans to seek bankruptcy protection with all its potential adverse effects on future ability to obtain a loan, I have no problem with that. Each case can be judged on its own merit WITH THE EFFORT THE STUDENT PUT INTO GETTING AN EDUCATION considered–failed grades and numerous arrests for “partying” activities should be an indication of failed attempt to put themelves in a position to repay the loan. Students that went to school to “party” should NOT get a free ride. Students that can get a professional license that can make them very wealthy in the reasonably near future should NOT get a free ride.
Perhaps bankrupty courts could even be permitted to “forgive” interest and just pay the financial institutions back the money in small increments over decades.
Some alternative to another taxpayer bailout needs to be found.
Recon 0311 2533
April 26th, 2012
4:16 pm
Obamanomics continues to fail America
http://news.yahoo.com/jobless-claims-ease-four-week-average-rises-123954308–business.html
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
4:16 pm
TaxPayer – The only thing I would have changed would probably have been the school I went to (whole range of issues, mostly dealing with the ability to get a license without going to grad school). I’ve been employed in the residential design field since before I graduated (luckily), but pay has been rather stagnant for the past few years. I didn’t decide to go into architecture based off what the market was doing (I grew up in the sticks and honestly had no idea what the market was doing), I did it because it is what I wanted to do. I don’t think I would advise too many people to follow me, but I do have a cousin that is thinking of doing so when he gets out of high school, and I’ve brought him to the office a few times to let him get a sense of what is going on. So, while I’m not sure that I would advocate it, I definitely wouldn’t try and discourage someone from doing it.
Bro – I’m not going to try and grab a rock out of your hand. That could be considered creepy.
Towncrier
April 26th, 2012
4:16 pm
“They gave it to him for proposing a 16 month timeline as Senator, having it endorsed by the Iraqi Prime Minister, and then Bush agreeing to that exact timeline.”
Purportedly. Let’s take a poll to see how many people think he deserved or earned it. And, if in truth he didn’t, then the question must be posed and answered: why did he then?
Generation$crewed
April 26th, 2012
4:17 pm
Brosephus™
April 26th, 2012
4:06 pm
So doesn’t a reform of the fafsa system seem needed. Wouldn’t it make far more sense to shift to more of the work study program instead of many if not most schools hiring outside parti-time help and still giving this much federal money to students. Seems to make more sense to let students do those part-time jobs and pay the students with the federal work study money? Especially those who are reciving grants and/or scholarships thru the college, state or federal system.
Seems like it may even be a way to lower tuition or stall its rise with the college’s money saved.
Brosephus™
April 26th, 2012
4:17 pm
(ir)Rational
Adam
April 26th, 2012
4:18 pm
Let’s take a poll to see how many people think he deserved or earned it. And, if in truth he didn’t, then the question must be posed and answered: why did he then?
Because one does not accept or reject Nobel Peace Prizes based on public polls.
Or did you want to maybe try to talk about this a different way?
Brosephus™
April 26th, 2012
4:19 pm
G$
No argument from me on that. I’d even go as far as to go back to what worked in the past. Use a combination of work study, internships, and apprenticeships to help pay for school while also getting practical experience in the field of work.
Adam
April 26th, 2012
4:19 pm
Alright, actually, I have to get out of here. Catch you all tomorrahs….
Towncrier
April 26th, 2012
4:22 pm
“Because one does not accept or reject Nobel Peace Prizes based on public polls.”
The question is: did Obama deserve it? I think not by a long shot. Who would not at least concede awarding it to him was questionable?
“Or did you want to maybe try to talk about this a different way?”
Why? To what end? There is no way you are going to convince me he deserved it.
Mary Elizabeth
April 26th, 2012
4:25 pm
Generation$crewed, 3:02 pm
“Mary Elizabeth,
Its crazy how teachers at current private schools seem to find a way to retire. Or do all of them have 2nd jobs as well?”
============================================
You are correct that not all public school teachers would have to take a second job in order to secure a privately-based retirement plan. That need would depend on the individual circumstances of teachers. Some might have spouses whose income is greater than theirs; some might have inherited money; some might work second jobs, among many other variables. I deliberately posed a dramatic dichotomy to point out that changing the educational system, from a public service-oriented one to a private free-market system, would change the mindset of many teachers. From my personal experiences, I have witnessed, even within public education, that there are variances in how different teachers approach their jobs.
For example, I was committed to students, teachers, and parents – schoolwide – and I used my time and effort to improve public education. But then, I knew that my retirement pension was secured. I often stayed at school until 7 or 8 pm, creating materials to be used in training sessions with students, teachers, and parents. On the other hand, I knew of a teacher who would leave school every day at 3:15 pm, so that he had time to improve various homes which he had purchased in order to sell them to make a profit. He quit teaching after 20 years, financially well-covered for his retirement. This teacher had essentially used teaching for personal financial gain. I did not consider him to be a dedicated teacher.
Now, what will happen when the whole educational system is redesigned to be one in which teachers must become free agents who will essentially be required to take care of their own pensions and financial interests? I think society will have created more teachers, like the one whom I described above, who are more self-oriented than those who view themselves as public servants to others.
ld
April 26th, 2012
4:25 pm
If gov’t is going to continue to subsidize education, it should be in gov’t schools only.
May I suggest modified military-style physical and skill training could be good for both high school and college. If the taxpayer is going to pay for something, it is no unreasonable to expect that taxpayers should get something for the money that is in the public interest. At the very least students that graduate highschool should be competent to serve in the military and/or with enough education and self-discipline to attend a technical college or skill oriented (such as educators or specific business skills) four-year ‘liberal arts”college and graduate and become self-supporting.
My Party has ALL the answers. Your party is full of poopyheads! (formerly That Black Guy)
April 26th, 2012
4:26 pm
Adam
April 26th, 2012
4:14 pm
TBG: They gave it to him for proposing a 16 month timeline as Senator, having it endorsed by the Iraqi Prime Minister, and then Bush agreeing to that exact timeline.
________________________________________________________________________
Link?
calling it like it is!
April 26th, 2012
4:32 pm
so the problem is only on the shoulders for “for profit” universities, though they may have a hand in it, what about all the non profit state and private colleges that haven’t had to cut spending to make their prospective universities affordable for kids, I guess since they got all that guaranteed pell grant money they had no incentive to cut costs! besides most of those universities have multi-million dollar endowments they don’t even touch unless they want to build a stadium or other new building to generate a buzz in the community, to exclusively blame for profit universities is short sighted and rather biased if you ask me….like you believe the only way to get a good education is through a state gov’t run university or a private non profit university….
Union
April 26th, 2012
4:35 pm
im glad adam knew what it was for.. since the nobel committee didnt seem to quite grasp it..
“The prize’s vagueness helps. In his speech, Norwegian Nobel Committee Chairman Thorbjorn Jagland gave only abstract justification for picking Obama. “We are not awarding the prize for what may happen in the future, but for what he has done in the previous year,” he said. “We would hope this will enhance what he is trying to do.” The committee’s statement wasn’t much more specific, alluding only to his “vision of and work for a world without nuclear weapons.”
In his speech, Obama used this vagueness to his advantage. If the Nobel committee wasn’t going to explain the award, then Obama would: “I will accept this award as a call to action,” he said, “a call for all nations to confront the common challenges of the 21st century.”
Union
April 26th, 2012
4:37 pm
the actual scandal is this… the govt loaning money without any rhyme or reason on how its going to get repaid.. sort of like the postal service bailout… lets keep that union happy..
JamVet - Stay ignorant, my friends...
April 26th, 2012
4:38 pm
The Nobel Peace Prize for 2009
The Norwegian Nobel Committee has decided that the Nobel Peace Prize for 2009 is to be awarded to President Barack Obama for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples. The Committee has attached special importance to Obama’s vision of and work for a world without nuclear weapons.
Obama has as President created a new climate in international politics. Multilateral diplomacy has regained a central position, with emphasis on the role that the United Nations and other international institutions can play. Dialogue and negotiations are preferred as instruments for resolving even the most difficult international conflicts. The vision of a world free from nuclear arms has powerfully stimulated disarmament and arms control negotiations. Thanks to Obama’s initiative, the USA is now playing a more constructive role in meeting the great climatic challenges the world is confronting. Democracy and human rights are to be strengthened.
Only very rarely has a person to the same extent as Obama captured the world’s attention and given its people hope for a better future. His diplomacy is founded in the concept that those who are to lead the world must do so on the basis of values and attitudes that are shared by the majority of the world’s population.
For 108 years, the Norwegian Nobel Committee has sought to stimulate precisely that international policy and those attitudes for which Obama is now the world’s leading spokesman. The Committee endorses Obama’s appeal that “Now is the time for all of us to take our share of responsibility for a global response to global challenges.”
Oslo, October 9, 2009
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/2009/press.html
Maybe i missed it but can someone show where there is any mention of Iraq???
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
4:52 pm
Time to head home. Y’all have a good evening.
Quick
April 26th, 2012
4:54 pm
Who is selling student loan-backed derivatives?
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
5:03 pm
Who is selling student loan-backed derivatives?
Sounds like the perfect business for AIG, given their government backing.
Eric
April 26th, 2012
5:08 pm
Jay, thank you for bringing all this to the forefront. I was aware of the increasing debt through private universities, etc. But I am in a state of shock over the lobbying contributions!
A few years ago, I had considered signing up for a medical coding program at Everest Institute. But their career placement service was woefully inadequate. They would not reveal which graduate obtained which jobs (or not), leading me to be very suspicious of taking on $15k debt. If you’re going to take that much money for a degree, you had better provide assurance that a decent job will be forthcoming.
Mary Elizabeth
April 26th, 2012
5:11 pm
JamVet, 4:38 pm
Thank you for your post regarding the reasons President Obama was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2009, as stated by the Nobel Committee, itself.
“None are so blind as those who will not see.”
JamVet - Stay ignorant, my friends...
April 26th, 2012
5:22 pm
Thanks, ME.
You rock.
Time for some tunes to get ready for Greg Lake later this evening.
Sublime 12 string sweetness…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoxHGxQw9ws&feature=related
Mary Elizabeth
April 26th, 2012
5:24 pm
You rock, too, JamVet!
Keep your voice loud and clear. And, enjoy your evening.
Normal Free, plain and simple
April 26th, 2012
5:30 pm
(ir)Rational
I only watch Quidditch…does that count?
Doggone/GA
April 26th, 2012
5:31 pm
” sort of like the postal service bailout… lets keep that union happy..”
You DO realize, DON’T YOU, that the postal service is a government function mandated by the Constitution?
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
5:36 pm
You DO realize, DON’T YOU, that the postal service is a government function mandated by the Constitution?
And it’s high time they returned to the form that our founding fathers envisioned. Horse back delivery may be slow but it is much better for the environment. And just think of the number of jobs it will create.
Jay
April 26th, 2012
5:58 pm
Sheets
F. Sinkwich
April 26th, 2012
5:58 pm
“Disgraced ex-Brooklyn state Sen. Carl Kruger was sentenced today to 7 years in prison for receiving $500,000 in bribes — much of which he funneled to his live-in gynecologist boyfriend.”
I read this whole 21 paragraph article twice but couldn’t find out which political party this criminal belonged to.
Can anybody help me here?
godless heathen
April 26th, 2012
6:01 pm
“Thank you for your post regarding the reasons President Obama was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2009″
As weak as they are.
JamVet - Stay ignorant, my friends...
April 26th, 2012
6:02 pm
heathen, LOL. Take it up with those funky Norwegians…
A sweet voice, some great guitar playing and a kick ass band backing him up. This could be kinda fun.
I’m not sure but I think he’s gonna cover this early monster, already covered by the Who and these guys…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K__-YQpjC8s
Brosephus™
April 26th, 2012
6:05 pm
Saw this earlier and I’m surprised nobody jumped on it, especially JamVet…
As a tie in to the thread about the effect of austerity in the UK, there’s an example much closer.
While Wisconsin Gov, Scott Walker (R) fights to keep his job in a recall election scheduled for June, he is being forced to confront a harsh reality in his state: It lost more jobs during the past 12 months than any other state in the United States.
Wisconsin lost 23,900 jobs between March 2011 and March 2012, according to data released Tuesday by the US Bureau of Labor Statistics. The state’s lead in job losses is significantly greater than the rest of the 50 states: No other state lost more than 3,500 jobs.
The majority of the losses in Wisconsin, 17,800, were in the public sector. However, the state lost more private-sector jobs, 6,100, than any other state. The only other states to report private-sector job losses in the same time period (instead of private-sector gains) were Mississippi and Rhode Island.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Elections/Governors/2012/0425/Wisconsin-posts-biggest-US-job-loss-as-Gov.-Scott-Walker-fights-for-his-job
I guess that when you cut those government jobs, it DOES have an effect on everything else around it. Also, before the Walker appologists jump in, the 23k number is only that low because Wisconsin added about 13K jobs between Jan and March 2012. The one question that I have about that article is this part here…
“There are a lot of other indicators that we see that show the governor’s policies are working,” Reggie Newson, secretary of the Wisconsin Department of Workforce Development, told the Associated Press. Compared with a year ago, unemployment rates are lower throughout the state except in three counties, Mr. Newson also noted in a statement.
You have a net loss of 23k jobs, yet your unemployment rates are lower except for 3 counties?? That either means that those three counties have unemployment percentages off the charts, many people quit looking for jobs (as the conservatives always like to count those guys), or people lost jobs and left the state. Either way, that doesn’t appear to show that Walker’s agenda is working as promised. That is, unless the true motive was to make people pack and leave Wisconsin.
F. Sinkwich
April 26th, 2012
6:08 pm
GSA, SS, TSA. Only the densest among us don’t believe O’bozo’s government isn’t out of control. Beyond that, his henchmen at the EPA are out the destroy America:
“Confirming what many in the industry long suspected, a video surfaced Wednesday in which Al Armendariz, an official at the Environmental Protection Agency, promotes the idea of crucifying oil companies.”
This is beyond disgusting. This A-hole should be fired immediately.
But he’s an O’bozo appointee. He’ll skate.
pogo
April 26th, 2012
6:14 pm
Education in this country has turned into a business. This was proven by a report on the literacy rate in the USA Today in 2009 that stated that 1 in every 7 adults in the US cannot even read a sentence, much less a book. I would shudder to see what the literacy rate is today three years later. We have spent billions upon billions of taxpayer dollars on public education and unfortunately, in large part it seems to have been wasted. The villains here are aplenty. They are the college’s that want to make huge tuition profits to build more buildings and hire more teachers and offer more programs to bolster their popularity to suck in more public taxpayer money. They are the public primary schools which have become nothing more than job mills for teachers whose primary motive is to increase their own ratings in order for them to get a bigger salary and a bigger retirement, not the education of their students. It is the parents of students who expect the schools do everything for their children including feeding them, babysitting them, and teaching them. I could blame the liberals for this. But I won’t. It would be like shooting fish in a barrel. The main thing that is wrong with education in this country is that too many of us have decided that we want the public educational system (whether it be through student loans or student daycare) to provide what we ourselves are just not willing to do. America has become terribly lazy and lazy people are dangerous. Education has become a business that is not concerned with the education of this nations children. Oh no, it’s priority is the almighty dollar.
Susan Muntzing
April 26th, 2012
6:16 pm
Thank you for spelling this out. The Grady College and Career Connection does not support For-profit schools for all the reasons mentioned. Copies of your column will be available for Grady students and their parents.
Dems_R_Idiots
April 26th, 2012
6:19 pm
“…it can’t be easy coming out of college with a degree and $60,000 or $100,000 in debt.”
Then try studying something “difficult.” We are hiring engineers.
Robert
April 26th, 2012
6:57 pm
Your article starts off well but then lays the blame on the for profits….this act suggests that railing against for profits was your true purpose. All higher education suffers from the same problems (useless degrees and overpricing). The for-profits are the worst of the lot but eliminating them will by no means solve the problem.
Additionally, the “real student loan scandal” is the one that most people do not talk about. This scandal is centered around the fact that there are no BK protections on all student loans, no statute of limitations, no truth in lending requirements, no refinancing after consolidation. All the while, this debt is sold to young people as “good debt.” Their insidious nature is hidden. If you want to rid the system of inflation and bad schools, society should restore BK protections. The money would dry up, ad just like the housing market, prices would come down. Try writing an article on that subject. Bet you make national news.
Don Abernethy
April 26th, 2012
7:17 pm
Wow! This subject created a lot of comments. If the economy had enough jobs to hire all the college graduates would that solve the student loan problem? Anyone know where we can get a government that can create jobs?? I think everyone in the Senate,House , and White House should lose their jobs.
Boris Badnoff
April 26th, 2012
7:24 pm
Considering how rotten the job market is for college grads these days
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/business/economy/19grads.html
the best way to avoid a student loan is not to go to college in the first place. Or get a scholarship. A fellow I knew was unemployed for 6 years because if he got a job his sons would lose their college scholarships. The guy who mows my grass is a college grad.
The only people who need college are medical doctors and health care professionals. If you major in Early Renaissance Sketching or Homo Eroticism in Classical Literature your job is going to be styling Jay Bookman’s hair.
Swallow your pride and lean how to be a plumber or an electrician. As The Wizard of Oz told the Scarecrow: you don’t need a brain, you need a diploma. At which point the Scarecrow misstated Pythagoras’ theorem.
DawgDad
April 26th, 2012
7:43 pm
Yes, Jay, now let’s enable the Federal Govenment to play fast and loose with our HEALTH CARE. Nuts.
This is what happens when the socialists try to engineer outcomes (in this case people getting educated); there are serious unintended consequences. Take away the USG money and the sharks will disappear. No, that’s too easy. Let’s throw away a few more billion now to bail out the “victims” of their own stupidity.
weetamoe
April 26th, 2012
8:05 pm
The US Dept of Labor reports unemployment nears record highs. Another *unexpected * snag for Jay Carney to dismiss. Just demand that those DeVry kids be given a scholarship to Harvard Law School. The school that gave Obama a degree should do no less for the kids who did not enjoy the the privileges he did.
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
8:06 pm
ris Badnoff
April 26th, 2012
7:24 pm
_
Jay has a stylist?
Progressive Humanist
April 26th, 2012
8:17 pm
I was lucky. My folks were able to afford to pay for UGA in the late 80’s and early 90’s when tuition was less than $1000 per quarter, and I worked part time all the way through. The HOPE teacher’s scholarship paid for my master’s. Then I took some money out of retirement and took about 20k in loans for my PhD. Now I owe about 18k, which I can handle pretty easily at $250/month, even on a lowly asst prof salary. But that’s not a realistic scenario for most students today when the cost of college has more than tripled from when I started. And I had a stable 40+ hour a week 45k job most of the time I was in grad school- another option that most college kids don’t have. The debt young adults are saddled with will continue to cripple our economy. Once they get out I’d rather have them spend what money they do make on goods, which will stimulate business, rather than exorbitant interest rates.
Dan
April 26th, 2012
9:07 pm
What horse squeeze, first of all anyone who thinks Georgia or Penn State isn’t a “for profit” school is a moron. The problem, as with the housing bubble, is governmental interference and support of loans to whomever applies. Not only does that create bad investment instruments it drives up prices. The entire problem can be traced to over regulation not greed. Simple economics 101, just mind boggling how easily people want to believe the party line
Josh
April 26th, 2012
9:16 pm
The problem is the federal loans. Do a real underwriting process. How likely is the student to pay the loan back? Do they have the grades and SAT scores to get through school. Will their job pay enough for the loan? Yes, this means that not many liberal arts majors will get loans – as it should be.
Union
April 26th, 2012
10:18 pm
Doggone/GA
April 26th, 2012
5:31 pm
” sort of like the postal service bailout… lets keep that union happy..”
You DO realize, DON’T YOU, that the postal service is a government function mandated by the Constitution?
sure.. what moron though thinks this was in the framers minds?
SIOUX CITY — As many as 40 union employees at the U.S. Postal Service distribution and processing facility in Sioux City — which closes permanently Friday — could get paid for the next 3 1/2 years without working a day.
That’s to the tune of $1.72 million, not including benefits, for the 3 1/2 years if they all stay on, thanks to the four-year postal workers’ union contract signed in May.
Richard Watkins, spokesman for the U.S. Postal Service Kansas City District, which includes Sioux City, said that some of the 100 employees from the Sioux City processing center have already taken jobs elsewhere within the postal service. Watkins said all workers, including the approximately 40 now on “standby” status, will have to eventually take another job with the postal service before their contracts expire in 2015.
Until they accept new assignments, however, those workers could be asked to report to the downtown Sioux City Post Office each day. There, they would sit in a room until they’re called on to do something. That could include filling in at a small-town post office or on a carrier route.
ken
April 27th, 2012
12:52 am
Good Jay. If students would take that $100,000 plus interest and put it in a good mutual fund they would be futher ahead in 30 yrs.
Hunger Games
April 27th, 2012
1:30 am
Student loans as an investment package to be sold? Absolutely. In the early ’90s I worked for Chase packaging the student loans they originated for sale to other institutions. I was tasked with making sure all of the documentation and paperwork was present. That’s when I learned that a new doctor with outrageous medical school loans could get a forbearance because he had recently bought a jet ski and couldn’t afford his payments.
Logic
April 27th, 2012
7:50 am
It appears the problem is really dumb students attending private schools taking huge loans for study programs that offer little in the way of salary when and if they graduate.
Is the problem the private schools or stupid students?
bob
April 27th, 2012
8:12 am
the country only needs a limited number of hairdressers, back crackers and medical billing workers
JB
April 27th, 2012
8:38 am
” Never let a good crisis go to waste”……
1. Forgive student loans…( with tax payer money of course)………….Good for votes.
2. Bring up often the next few days of revenge possibilities from Bin Liden followers for the Seal team killing him, for the President to get some “reminder” headlines out of that…..The guy is a piece of work.
OBIWAN
April 27th, 2012
8:46 am
Funny how there was no mention of the “public” colleges paying professors over $300,000 and work less than 40 hours a month….but that has nothing to do with the high cost of education, right libs?….
JB
April 27th, 2012
8:57 am
I wonder if all these college kids showing up to cheer for Obama know that the rich, greedy 1 percent types don’t have any jobs for them. They will be working 2 $8 jobs grossing $400 a week living with their parents. That’s change yo can believe in.
Oblama
April 27th, 2012
9:01 am
B.C. – The student loan bubble is happening under Oblama and Pelosi’s LACK of watch. Nancy Pelosi is an assault on women and her botox job is a serious eye sore. Can’t San Fran do better than Nancy Pelosi? Seriously? She should be on the Comedy Channel.
Oblama
April 27th, 2012
9:03 am
Jay – The average student loan is around $25,000 TO $27,000 – NOT $80,000 to $100,000 unless they are staying in a fancy apartment next to the Tech crime ridden campus.
Mother and Teacher
April 27th, 2012
9:03 am
My daughter graduated from a private (expensive) university with a double-major, a minor, and only $20,000 of student loan debt. How? Her father and I did not depend on others to finance her education — we began saving for her college education the day she was born. She applied herself in high school and earned good grades so she was able to get scholarships as well as financial aid to supplement our savings. Her’s is not an unusual story.
The horror stories of college debt, as Mr. Bookman points out, are largely connected with for-profit colleges (such as University of Phoenix, etc.). These places have been shown to tell prospective students that they will earn far more money than they were borrowing. For example, one student who was pursuing a certificate/license in barbering (not even a degree) was told that, as a barber, he could earn $60,000 a year easily.
Many for-profits are also know for admitting anyone with a heartbeat — regardless of intellectual ability or the lack of. It is no skin off the for-profits nose if the majority of their students fail or drop out and are left with huge debts. Why should this surprise us? They say it themselves when they call themselves “for-profit!”
If we are foolish enough to allow government money to subsidize their businesses, we are no smarter than that barber student who thinks he’s going to make $60,000 a year cutting hair.
Oblama
April 27th, 2012
9:07 am
Teacher’s labor unions demanding huge pay increases, etc. is the primary reason for the cost of education going up. College teachers and administrators salaries have tripled in the last 15 years.
Just Wow.
April 27th, 2012
9:24 am
“it’s important to point out that college graduates with large debt aren’t really the problem.”- No, this is totally the problem. They are the ones in debt. If you refuse to hold the students that applied for the loans responsible,then we must assume they are not capable of making such decisions and do it for them based on their ability to pay back the money. That would solve HOPE issues if we start choosing who can get the money though. You may be on to something.
nomoobama
April 27th, 2012
9:29 am
I took out approx $10k in student loans for grad school. The interest rates are very reasonable, abt 2-3 percent. I am paying them off. I do not want Obama to bail me out, nor should any other true american who borrows money. I dont harbor any ill towards my loan holders as they are in a business and are making money off me borrowing from them. Thats capitalism and its great! If you dont like that, be glad you have freedom…to move elsewhere!
GT forever
April 27th, 2012
9:43 am
Our entire educational system, and I use the term loosely, needs to be overhauled as well as the requirements for entrance into college. If you cannot add or subtract simple fractions,if you cannot write a coherent sentence, if you do not understand simple relationships, if you do not have a fundamental understanding of economics, if you do not have a simple understanding of our political system and our history and that of the world,, there is a problem. Educators, students, parents, etc,need to accept responsibilty for these shortcomings and to work together to address them, Just because student GPAs are increasing as well as the number of degrees held does not mean that students are more knowledgeable then higher gas prices translate into a better product.
williebkind
April 27th, 2012
9:53 am
“Now is the time for all of us to take our share of responsibility for a global response to global challenges.”
Yeah that is putting America in its place. That is why he got the prize.
williebkind
April 27th, 2012
9:55 am
Yepper, all that education and no skills! It is going to be tough making a salary to pay back school loans in 10yrs.
Progressive Humanist
April 27th, 2012
11:28 am
@ Oblama @ 9:07,
College teachers’ salaries have tripled over the past 15 years? So in 1997 college professors were making $20k per year? Really? Just once it would be nice if you knew what you were talking about before you started spouting off. Typical right wing tomfoolery.
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April 27th, 2012
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Progressive Humanist
April 27th, 2012
11:39 am
OBIWAN @ 8:46: “Funny how there was no mention of the “public” colleges paying professors over $300,000 and work less than 40 hours a month….but that has nothing to do with the high cost of education, right libs?….”
You’re delusional if you think college professors at public universities make $300k a year (or that they work 40 hours a month; try 40 hours a week). At most public colleges professors start out at $55k to 65k, even at top flight research universities. A tenured professor with administrative duties and many publications may make $100k. Business and law professors make a little more, but unless they’re administrators are unlikely to break $150k. You think that’s too much for someone with a PhD who is likely among the nation’s leaders in expertise in their field? The only professors who make $300k are the ones at medical colleges, but hey, they’re professors AND medical doctors who do things like perform heart surgery and brain surgery and show others how to do it. Overpaid, right?
Stooge.
MrLiberty
April 27th, 2012
1:08 pm
No, the real scandal is how completely ignorant both the media and the general public can be regarding the affects of fiat money and Federal Reserve-created credit on the economy and the cost of products and services it impacts. This despite the fact that wonderful sites like Mises(dot)org exist with vast amounts of free literature, all from great economists in the Austrian tradition exist all over the web.
Let’s review for the ignorant: when there is a fixed money supply (fixed to gold, silver, or some other market decided standard, there is a fixed amount of money in circulation. In order for money to be made available for lending (where banks are supposed to make their money), there must be savings. Banks encourage savings by paying interest on the money that they will in turn be lending out (for interest – thus their profits). The less money being saved, the higher the interest rate will go. The more money being saved, the lower. When nobody is saving, the higher cost of money (interest) sends a signal to manufacturers and even regular folks looking to borrow for education, etc. that since nobody is saving, there will not be money available in the future for the purchase of their products, etc. or even around to employ them. These higher costs then generate spending on more short term projects, etc. Lower interest rates signal just the opposite.
When the Fed steps in and prints money out of thin air, creates credit out of thin air, etc. the market signal mechanism is totally destroyed. Lower interest rates encourage more borrowing and wreckless borrowing on things that there will be no future money around to buy. The greater amount of “fake” money in circulation inherently drives of prices as the cost to borrow is now lower meaning that long term loans for things like housing and college are now cheaper than they should be if the market were in charge rather than the Fed. The same holds true for colleges and universities. If they had to rely on just what people saved and easy money was not available, they would be forced to lower their costs in order to get customers. Instead, the cheap government money means that they no longer have to cut costs, can raise prices, and the consumer sees an unnaturally low cost for the loans they now take out.
Yes, the housing bubble is the SAME as the college loan bubble and it has the SAME source – the criminal Federal Reserve.
Sadly the media and everyone else is either too ignorant, too owned by the banking cartels, too beholden to the banking cartels or something to ever get the obvious solution to the problem – END THE FED.
R Tidmore
April 27th, 2012
8:26 pm
Let’s see here. One trillion in student debt. ” For Profit” colleges are accountable for roughly $25 billion of the total. So, the remaining $975,000,000,000 is owed to “not for profit” schools. And “for profit” schools are the problem??? Looks like the author has been reading and possibly plaglarizing Democratic PR materials or maybe he came to this conclusion on his own. If it is the latter, suggest he return to his college of choice and take Math 101 again. Also, a course on wisdom and perspective would probably be in order as well. He might even qualify for student loans from Uncle Sam!!!
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