The real student-loan scandal
Charlie Harper, writing at Peach Pundit, notes the worrisome parallels between the college-loan situation and the housing-loan bubble just before it burst a few years ago:
“Virtually anyone that applied got a loan. There was no consideration given to how the loan would be repaid. No calculations for repayment ability were required. Most borrowers overestimated the value of their purchase and underestimated the income that would be available in the future to retire the debt. The government subsidized an unlimited amount of borrowing, and then the problem was so large that when an alarm was sounded, too many people were invested in the status quo that the system could not be changed until it was too late.”
There’s a lot of truth to that. Outstanding student loan debt hit an estimated $1 trillion this week. And according to the most recent numbers available, more and more students are defaulting on those loans. The annual default rate has risen from 6.7 percent in 2007 to 8.8 percent in 2009, and today, three years later, it’s undoubtedly higher still. In this economy, it can’t be easy coming out of college with a degree and $60,000 or $100,000 in debt.
However, it’s important to point out that college graduates with large debt aren’t really the problem. The larger problem is the predatory for-profit schools that have popped up around the country to try to separate students from their college-loan money and in the process deliver little in the way of useful education.
The industry is large and growing rapidly. During the 2008-2009 academic year, those schools collected $4.3 billion in Pell grants and $20 billion in federal loans. That’s more than double the amount that they received as recently as 2005.
More importantly, the default rates on those loans are very high and rising.
In 2009, just 5.2 percent of students who had attended four-year public schools such as Georgia State or the University of Georgia defaulted on their loans. Just 4.5 percent of those who had attended non-profit private colleges defaulted.
However, the default rate among those attending four-year for-profit proprietary schools was 15.4 percent. Between 2007 and 2009, the number of students from for-profit proprietary schools who defaulted on their loans increased by 65 percent.
(It’s important to note that some for-profit schools do a good job for their students and have a relatively low default rate. If you have questions, the U.S. Department of Education maintains a database that allows you to check the default rate for each institution.)
Why are the default rates among for-profit schools generally so high? As the schools point out, part of it can be explained by the fact they serve non-traditional students. That’s a valid point. But in far too many cases, those students don’t get the education or the degree that they pay for and end up tens of thousands of dollars in debt to the taxpayer without the means to repay it.
The Education Trust, a Washington think tank specializing in higher-ed issues, released a report in November 2010 noting that just 22 percent of full-time students who began a four-year program at for-profit schools actually got a degree within six years. And while some schools do better, some do much much worse.
To many of these schools, the guaranteed federal loan programs are simply a cash cow to be milked. They exist solely because of taxpayers’ money. So in an effort to bring at least some rationality to the industry, the federal government instituted the so-called “90-10″ rule. Colleges are allowed to collect no more than 90 percent of their revenue from federal sources, leaving 10 percent to be generated through actual tuition payments and other private sources.
It’s a good rule. But what did the proprietary schools do in response? In many cases, they created their own, private in-house student loan programs to provide that missing 10 percent. According to a 2011 study by the National Consumer Law Center, the schools finance those loans to their own students knowing full well that many will never be repaid. And they don’t care:
“As documented in this report, the default rates on most institutional loans are shockingly high. The schools seem to view these loans more as “loss leaders” to keep the federal dollars flowing… Schools make unaffordable loans as a way of filling up the 10% category with vapor revenues derived from loans that will never be repaid.”
(The NCLC also points out the great discrepancy in executive pay at for-profit colleges, noting that “the chairman and CEO of the for-profit education company Strayer Education was paid $41.9 million in 2009, 26 times the compensation of the highest-paid president of a traditional university.)
Again, it’s important to stress that these colleges are not surviving in the private marketplace on private money. They are preying on federal dollars funneled through their students. Nonetheless, the issue has become caught up in the ideological warfare in Congress. The Republican-led House has generally taken the position that trying to reduce abuse of federal student-loan programs by proprietary schools amounts to government regulation of private enterprise.
In addition, the proprietary-school industry spent some $6 million in lobbying in 2010 alone. It has also been active on the campaign finance front. According to the Minneapolis Star-Tribune the industry contributed more than $100,000 in 2010 alone to U.S. Rep. John Kline, R-Minn., chairman of the House Education Committee.
Most of the media attention on this issue has focused on the plight of middle-class kids. Politicians, including President Obama, are also playing to that demographic for votes. But in return for their debt, those students are at least getting good educations from good schools. They at least have a fighting chance to turn that education into a career that will allow them to repay that debt.
But millions of others who are largely invisible to the rest of us are being played for suckers, with Uncle Sam as a silent financier in the scam.
– Jay Bookman
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
354 comments Add your comment
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
2:34 pm
Adam
April 26th, 2012
2:30 pm
_____
Depends on whether or not you think parents should pay for their children’s education. Some do and some don’t.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
2:34 pm
Oscar – I don’t mind being called that. I just don’t understand how kids think they’re entitled to an education, and don’t feel like they have to work to achieve it. There is a huge disconnect between kids and reality, and a lot of them don’t understand when they go to college and take out student loans that they’re required to pay them back. I’m thinking it would be better for little Johnny or Susie to spend the four years they would have spent at college “trying to figure out who they are” working in a mill or something instead of partying.
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
2:34 pm
Perhaps student loan debt is the one form of security that warrants a AAA rating since the debt cannot be relieved via bankruptcy and it even follows you throughout your work life via a garnishment of wages and ultimately even to garnishment of social security benefits. I’m surprised the law has not been further modified to require the indebted’s relatives to pick up the tab if unpaid at death. I don’t know of any other form of debt that has such a choke hold on the indebted one.
Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")
April 26th, 2012
2:35 pm
As long as everything should be free, how about having the government send someone over to cut my lawn this weekend. It needs a treatment for weeds as well.
Thank you.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
2:38 pm
TaxPayer – Yeah, its almost like we should just forgive you for making stupid decisions and let you walk away from paying for something you took out knowingly.
However, if you go into teaching for a certain amount of time, at least part, if not all (I can’t remember the rules exactly) of your student loan debt is forgiven.
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
2:39 pm
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
2:34 pm
____
At one time bonds secured by student loans did have a AAA rating. That was before the market on them froze and they dopped over half their value, and some could not be sold at all. At least one national company listed on the NY stock exchange went bankrupt anc countless people lost their life savings. Look up auction securities secured by student loans.
Don't Tread
April 26th, 2012
2:41 pm
As long as everything is free, there’s an empty space in my driveway that needs to be fixed…
..with a Ferrari.
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
2:42 pm
Enter your comments hereir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
2:34 pm
_______
I think it depends a lot on the family values and the family financies. I did the kind on work you described during summers when I was in school. It helped motivate me to stay in school, but my parents picked up the tab.
I agree that a lot of kids waste their parents money and their time in school when they should be doing something else. Lots of kids graduate with degrees that they never use.
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
2:47 pm
irrational,
your reply came across as though you were assuming that I had student loan debt and that I was complaining about having amassed said dabt. If that was your assumption then you would be incorrect.
barking frog
April 26th, 2012
2:47 pm
Oscar
first 18 yrs in TN, 4 in USAF,
in GA since, although I
spend winters in FL.
Mary Elizabeth
April 26th, 2012
2:50 pm
Taxpayer, 2:15
“Not to worry. The Republican solution for all you unionized overcompensated teachers is to put you all to work for a for-profit private institution for half the compensation so the executives and shareholders can make a decent tax-free living off of you. Now don’t you feel so much better.”
=================================================
Very true words you write, Taxpayer. Also, “the Republican solution” is to remove teachers’ retirement benefits. Read below a few remarks I made on Maureen Downey’s blog, in this regard, yesterday:
————————————————
“If schools were to become private entities instead of part of a public system, then teachers within those individual schools will become ‘free agents’ who will have to secure their own retirement funds because there will no longer be a Teacher Retirement System, or a unified healthcare system for all public school teachers.
With this changing dynamic, teachers will be leaving the schools at 3:15 pm to take second jobs in order to build their own retirement portfolios since they will have to secure their own retirement monies for themselves, alone, and their salaries will not be great enough to save for retirement without a second job. Teachers will change from being public servants, whose primary energy and time are given to students, within and outside of school hours, to becoming free agents who must, by necessity, ‘look after number one.’
Does the general public really want the public schools to turn into business enterprises which will create that type of teacher? How America has changed in 40 years. . .”
and
“Proper balance will control excesses of any type – financial, emotional, social. The governmental, public sector has its proper place in American society, as does the private, business sector. Only ideologues refuse to give each their proper due. Each sector balances the other. We must restore balance to our nation.”
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
2:50 pm
Oscar – Probably does depend on family values a lot. I didn’t go to school to party (obviously, I went to GT, we don’t do too much of that there), but I had a lot of friends who felt that was what college was supposed to be. Actually have an aunt that is seriously worried about both my wife and I because we both managed to make it through school without joining a frat or sorority and didn’t feel the need to party the entire time. I don’t get the idea of going to a school, especially not an expensive one, for four+ years with the intention of partying, wasting your time and your parent’s (or your) money and coming out not being able to do anything useful because you got a degree in women’s studies or whatever. I’m not saying I was perfect in college, far from it, but I at least focused on getting a degree I could use.
Generation$crewed
April 26th, 2012
2:52 pm
I was on full scholarship, all fees, room 21 meals per week, all books. Everything was paid for.
However I took out around 1000 per semester in student loans. Simply because it was easy to get money. Eventhough I had no need for it what-so-ever. We did have some nice parties with it and I ate some good meals too. My favorite was the video games and shoes.
Now I know for a fact I was not the only person of FULL rides doing this. Most got more than me. I quit doing this after my junior year and figured out how dumb of an idea it was and instead just got a work study job. I pay each and every payment usually more than the min. But how many are there going into default for this reason.
My point is possibly a complete restructuring of the student loan process. There are many loop holes that allow those without actual need appear to be in need according to their fafsa. Maybe make the work study option is a better way for students without need to have access to cash without having to compete in the public workforce. Also allowing for much more flexablity with their class schedule. Instead of taking the risk of giving them free money and hoping they pay up later. But be confident that for profit colleges are not the only ones taking advantage of the system and its rules.
Or we could act as if 30% of the problem is the issue and not the system itself.
James Thomas
April 26th, 2012
2:54 pm
Mary Elizabeth
Its called a free market. If the job sucks, teachers are free to leave. When the schools have no teachers, they attract them with things like higher wages and benefits.
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
2:55 pm
irrational,
how can you be so certain when entering college that by time you graduate there will not have been some major study completed confirming the lifesaving properties associated with chairs constructed by means of underwater weaving techniques available through select schools of higher learning, I asks ya.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
2:55 pm
TaxPayer – No, my response was merely pointing out that maybe we’re able to get out from under all types of legitimate debts a little too easily, and we should be required to pay them back. I don’t care one way or the other if you have student loan debt or not, it isn’t really germane to the argument. I’m just saying, you take the loans out, yeah, you should have to pay them back. Just like if I go out and spend $25,000 on my credit cards, I should have to pay them back. I shouldn’t be able to go to court and say “oops, I messed up, maybe you could just tell the credit card companies that I’m sorry, didn’t mean it, and I’m only going to pay them $5,000 of the money they lent me.” I agree with structuring payments through bankruptcy, but I think that is all it should be for, basically freeze your credit, structure payments on your debt until everything is paid off, then you’re on your own.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
2:57 pm
TaxPayer – Just a hunch I have. I’m guessing a women’s studies, or underwater basket weaving degree won’t be much use outside the hippy commune.
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
2:57 pm
Does the general public really want the public schools to turn into business enterprises which will create that type of teacher?
I don’t know about the general public but I would certainly venture a guess that those touting conservative/libertarian credentials certainly do.
Normal Free, Plain and Simple
April 26th, 2012
2:58 pm
.One of NOM’s Top Secret Donors Revealed: Mitt Romney
We often talk about how hard NOM works to hide their donors – even if it means circumventing the law – but now, we’ve learned the identity of one of their high-profile financial supporters: Mitt Romney.
Financial documents obtained by HRC reveal that Mitt Romney donated $10,000 to the National Organization for Marriage in 2008 – essentially funding NOM’s strategy of using racial division and unfounded scare tactics to attack LGBT equality, at the same time that NOM was fighting for Prop 8 in California.
Join HRC in calling on Mitt Romney to immediately denounce NOM’s divisive strategy. Act now.
The money came via Romney’s “Free and Strong America” PAC during a time when NOM was heavily engaged in passing Proposition 8. HRC reviewed copies of Romney’s Free and Strong America PAC’s filings with the Federal Election Commission – and no contribution to NOM was disclosed in those documents. The filings are available from the FEC. But, HRC did discover an Alabama-based “Free and Strong America” PAC that in 2008 does disclose the $10,000 contribution to NOM. Available on page 3 at: http://arc-sos.state.al.us/PEL/SOSELPDF.001/E0090860.PDF.
The evidence continues to pile up and is painting a very clear picture of Mitt Romney’s anti-LGBT associations. A candidate can’t claim to be “better for gay rights than [Ted] Kennedy” when it’s convenient, but then fund a far-right anti-LGBT strategy to keep other interest groups happy. Act now and tell Romney to denounce NOM’s strategy.
.
Jm
April 26th, 2012
2:59 pm
Moral of the story
When you’re spending someone else’s money, you don’t think as hard about whether it is a good idea or not
Student loans should be results based, not “need based”, if they have to exist
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:01 pm
Normal – OMG NO! Surely we don’t have a candidate actually supporting causes that align with his personal and religious beliefs. Alert the media, we need to destroy him!
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
3:01 pm
irrational,
but what of Tom Graves’ and Chip Roger’s legal council’s argument that if the lender was stupid enough to lend it to them then hold the lender accountable, not them! Should politicians, for example, not set examples for the rules of law that they proclaim to hold so tightly to their frail little chests.
Generation$crewed
April 26th, 2012
3:02 pm
Mary Elizabeth,
Its crazy how teachers at current private schools seem to find a way to retire. Or do all of them have 2nd jobs as well.
Cause funny how my hs coach had retired from a private school and was collecting while also getting his salary from our public hs.
And I can’t once remember him talking about having to have a 2nd job to be able to retire from the private side???
Jefferson
April 26th, 2012
3:02 pm
When it comes to loans and borrowing, the responsibility for non repayment should always go back to the lender. Don’t lend unless there is collateral or you can pay the bad ones with profits from the good ones. Its sad that people can’t always repay due to unseen items, but the lender should beware. You can’t lose what you never had.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:04 pm
TaxPayer – I didn’t see a qualifier in my argument, so I must have meant that those standards should apply to everyone.
rightwing troll
April 26th, 2012
3:07 pm
It’s a all Barney Franks fault.
Thomas
April 26th, 2012
3:07 pm
Bernanke Takes On Krugman’s Criticism Ignoring Own Advice
Don’t favor either but Krugman is a complete poser- it is about time someone shot back at him.
Normal Free, Plain and Simple
April 26th, 2012
3:09 pm
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:01 pm
I agree he needs to be taken down. Any man or woman who is not “confunded” by religious myths, would support the idea of equal rights for ALL human beings.
As in Mitts case, he has no anchor and will go where his political advantage takes him. If elected, he will be a disaster.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:12 pm
Normal – If you didn’t catch it from the
, my response was sarcastic. I find it refreshing to see people actually standing up for what they believe in. While I agree that religion is largely (or fully) mythical, it helps people sleep at night, and I don’t feel the need to make fun of others for having convictions I don’t. And, I would argue that he seems to have a fairly large anchor in the Mormon Church, but that is his personal business, not mine.
Union
April 26th, 2012
3:15 pm
fun little tool..
http://chronicle.com/article/faculty-salaries-data-2012/131431#id=110635
in addition to salaries.. funded retirement plans at some places..
“Under the retirement plans, after a six-month waiting period, faculty and most staff under age 40 receive a monthly contribution equal to 5 percent of salary, and those over age 40 receive a contribution equal to 10 percent of salary. (Contributions are increased for earnings above the Social Security wage base.) Faculty and staff choose where to invest these contributions from a selection of high-quality options. To help you make better investment decisions, Harvard offers free, lunch-time seminars for all employees on financial planning and investment topics.”
etc.. etc.. etc..
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
3:15 pm
I didn’t see a qualifier in my argument, so I must have meant that those standards should apply to everyone.
Too bad our politicians do not all agree with you.
Normal Free, Plain and Simple
April 26th, 2012
3:16 pm
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:12 pm
I understand that, but I had figured you more into equal rights for all than your post had indicated. I’m slow, so the next time you do sarcasm, use a winky face…then I’ll get it.
carlosgvv
April 26th, 2012
3:17 pm
Jay, a question. If this student loan bubble bursts as did the housing-loan one, will the effects on our economy be the same?
Jay
April 26th, 2012
3:18 pm
“Krugman is a complete poser …”
Yup. For example, here he is posing with his Nobel Prize in economics alongside the King of Norway:
http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1016477.shtml
Union
April 26th, 2012
3:23 pm
Jay
April 26th, 2012
3:18 pm
“Yup. For example, here he is posing with his Nobel Prize in economics alongside the King of Norway..”
didnt obama get one of those for something?
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:26 pm
Normal – I am definitely more for equal rights for all than my post indicated, although, at the same time, I could make the argument that I have no more rights than someone who is gay does. However, having said that, I don’t have a problem with him supporting campaigns he believes in, for whatever reason. I also realize that the president isn’t going to have too much influence on the national debate one way or the other in this realm. It is a state issue, not a national one, and to my mind, what the president thinks on it doesn’t matter much.
Ahem
April 26th, 2012
3:26 pm
Why nothing on the few jobs created or jobless claims today? Any interest in the cost of Michelle’s vacation to Spain? Nothing newsworthy in the taxpayers footing Obama’s re-election campaign travel?
Jay
April 26th, 2012
3:27 pm
Carlos, no, it’s not the same kind of thing. It’s not a bubble in the sense of the housing bubble. At worst, money not repaid will have to be covered by the taxpayers, but with the IRS as your collection agent, most of the loans will be covered one way or the other. The real impact is in the hardship it inflicts on students and the lost buying power as money goes to repaying the loans instead of buying cars, etc.
Jm
April 26th, 2012
3:28 pm
Krugman got the bernanke smackdown yesterday
Normal Free, Plain and Simple
April 26th, 2012
3:28 pm
“didnt obama get one of those for something?”
Yes, and I disagreed with his keeping it, but I still support him.
Normal Free, Plain and Simple
April 26th, 2012
3:29 pm
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:26 pm
Fair enough and understandable…still friends?
Jm
April 26th, 2012
3:29 pm
Jay 3:27 not quite true
Under Obama IRS now writes the loans off after 20 years sticking taxpayers with the bill
Of course, not a problem for the non taxpayers out there
St Simons - we're on Island time
April 26th, 2012
3:31 pm
Nobel envy, cons. Its so unattractive.
barking frog
April 26th, 2012
3:32 pm
Obama deserved the Nobel
prize just for defeating
the Clinton machine.
Mary Elizabeth
April 26th, 2012
3:33 pm
James Thomas, 2:54 pm
“Mary Elizabeth
Its called a free market. If the job sucks, teachers are free to leave. When the schools have no teachers, they attract them with things like higher wages and benefits.”
=============================================
Why not simply improve traditional public education rather than traumatically dismantling it, altogether, and creating, in its place, a “free market” educational system – the results of which would be unknown?
I suspect that that more rational, and balanced, educational improvement approach has not been forthcoming because it has not been acceptable to “free market” ideologues, who control organizations such as ALEC. They want to dismantle, entirely, public service-based education for their self-interested, private and profit-based educational endeavors. In other words, they have no problem with using children for profit, and teachers as commodies to their self-interested financial ends.
See below:
“If anyone seriously thinks that the ‘free market,’ alone, is the answer to financial stability for our nation, please view a rerun of this past week’s two hour broadcast, entitled, ‘Frontline: Money, Power, and Wall Street, Part 1,’ on PBS – TV. Part 2 of this program will be broadcast May 1. This broadcast will open many eyes. Even Alan Greenspan admitted to a need to adjust his financial (ideological) preconceptions, late in his life.”
They BOTH suck
April 26th, 2012
3:37 pm
why did someone fail to mention that it was 25 yrs and dropped to 20? guess attempting to give the appearance that it was totally new thing
Sort of like those deficit to GDP fake numbers
no surprise
Typically day……. typically BS
barking frog
April 26th, 2012
3:38 pm
Even Alan
Greenspan admitted to a
need to adjust his financial
(ideological) preconceptions,
late in his life.”
————–
so did Bernie Madoff.
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
3:39 pm
Jm
April 26th, 2012
3:29 pm
_____
Collection on written notes and debts generally have a twenty year statute of limitations, as does enforecment of a written contract. Generally, there are some exceptions.
G Mare 71( got the living' the red state BLUES!)
April 26th, 2012
3:40 pm
The Clinton machine?
The Fresh Prince of BIll Ayers
April 26th, 2012
3:40 pm
It’s kinda like congressmen and senators. They spend millions of their own money to get elected for a couple hundred thousand dollar job. I should be able to drop 100k at the Art Institute to learn how to be a chef and make 30k a year….
G Mare 71( got the living' the red state BLUES!)
April 26th, 2012
3:41 pm
Oh, the light dawned. Never .mind….
JamVet - Stay ignorant, my friends...
April 26th, 2012
3:41 pm
Secondary edumacation is way overrated.
Virtually every single one of those colleges and universities are nothing but liberal brainwashing factories that teach young adults heresy like Darwin and the earth being 4 billion years old…
Brosephus™
April 26th, 2012
3:41 pm
2. A recent Associated Press story noted that almost half of new college graduates are either unemployed or under employed. Unless many of these unemployed and underemployed new graduates find good jobs, it’s highly likely that many of them will default on their loans.
And when you look at the combination of stagnant wages for the worker class over the past 30-40 years, the major outsourcing of jobs, and the influx of cheap workers by way of work visas, how in the cowboy hell are college graduates supposed to find good jobs? I’m not even gonna mention those with the attitude that they’re not hiring simply because of who lives in the White House. This country is so effed up that people really can’t comprehend how bad it really is.
————————–
(ir)Rational @ 2:34
I just don’t understand how kids think they’re entitled to an education, and don’t feel like they have to work to achieve it.
Well, when you wholeheartedly buy into American Exceptionalism without being explained the “whole” truth behind that, you have people with an inflated self-worth who really have no clue about what hard work really means. Also, when you live in an instant gratification society that gives instant rewards for little to no effort, what else would you expect?
————————–
Generation$crewed
I was on a full ride scholarship, but I didn’t even touch a student loan application. I had a job at home where I worked on the weekends when I went home, and I had a job where I went to school. My last year, I worked as a Res. Asst. and got a stipend from that. I had credit card debt coming out of college, but no student loans.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:42 pm
Normal – Only as long as you’re neither a U(sic)GA or Manchester United fan, otherwise, we’re good.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:45 pm
Bro – Yeah, you make a good point there. Kids these days are full of it. No matter what anyone tells you, there is a generation gap between people my age and those that are coming out of college now. It isn’t as evident when you’re talking about student loans and what not, but if you take the evidence as a whole, it is very evident. I’m hoping that eventually, we’ll get another generation or two that knows how to do good things.
They BOTH suck
April 26th, 2012
3:46 pm
ir(Rational)
If you do not mind me asking, how old are you?
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:49 pm
27
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:50 pm
Sadly, I had to think about that for a second.
I’m too young to be forgetting things that simple.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
3:50 pm
ir(Rational)
If you do not mind me asking, how old are you?
Old enough to know better than to be a Gunners fan.
Just sayin’.
Jefferson
April 26th, 2012
3:51 pm
Some things just can’t change.
Brosephus™
April 26th, 2012
3:52 pm
27
Young whippersnapper….
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
3:52 pm
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:49 pm
___
And you think you are in a different generation from kids coming out of college now. I had to laugh at that. Son, you are one of the kids coming out of college now.
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
3:52 pm
If I could turn back time. Twenty-seven. Good times.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:52 pm
Kam – I won’t ever be old enough for that. And I could say the same about you, you should be old enough to know better than to be a Chelsea fan.
Student Loans And For Profit Schools
April 26th, 2012
3:54 pm
[...] Bookman takes our discussion yesterday regarding student loans and extends it into the area of subsidies for for-profit institutions: In 2009, just 5.2 percent of students who had attended four-year public schools such as Georgia [...]
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
3:55 pm
(ir)Rational — My Blu Lions are playing in the FA Cup final and the UCL final. Which final is Arsenal playing in?
Generation$crewed
April 26th, 2012
3:56 pm
Brosephus™
April 26th, 2012
3:41 pm
Oh I had a job every summer and I’m not advocating doing what I did wish I had not. Was told of an easy way to get money took advantage of it.
My point is reform should be made and measures put in place to make sure those like myself without need don’t get gov backed loans, if we want a loan we should have to go to a bank or financial institution like everyone else.
I worked my entire senior year, and went full time until I graduated while playing overseas. Working and getting an education is not asking the impossible. Wish I had been smart enough to know that at 18
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:57 pm
Oscar – Like I said, it may not be evident to those outside, but the attitudes are definitely different between people my age, and people that were born in the late 80s and early 90s. I don’t know exactly what it is, but it is there. Besides, I’ve been out of college for 4 years.
Bro – Yeah, so?
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
3:59 pm
Kam – Being a fan of a team isn’t about how many Cups they win, or which finals they’re going to get beaten in, it is about supporting them irrationally no matter what. Besides, I equate being a Arsenal fan to being a Red Sox fan, they’re always going to be good, but they might not (probably won’t) win the championship.
Mighty Righty
April 26th, 2012
4:00 pm
What a surprise! I am shocked! A big government program that has gone awry. Costs more than originally thought. Doesn’t achieve the expected results. Who would have thought?
saywhat?
April 26th, 2012
4:00 pm
My daughter blew it her first year of highschool, more concerned with socializing and Myspace than grades. She turned it around to earn A’s and B’s the next three years, but ended up missing the Hope Schlarship by a few hundredths of a GPA point. Oh well. She took out 15k in loans for her first year of college, applied herself and earned the Hope for the following year.She still borrows a few thousand a year to help cover what her summer jobs don’t for rent and food, so she will be in debt around 25- 30K by the time she graduates. Not awful, but not great either.
The point is that there are still kids willing to put in the work to obtain a college education. It would suck to have loans cost so much more, just when they are needed most.
All these numbnuts in Congress talking about getting rid of the subsidized student loans already got theirs, took advantage of the opportunity it offered, but are now willing to deny that opportunity to others for the sake of pushing ideology over what is best for the nation, much like the manufactured debt limit crisis.
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
4:01 pm
irrational,
I can’t recall now but I seem to remember your mentioning in the past that you graduated from the school of Architecture. Is that correct or am I thinking of someone else?
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
April 26th, 2012
4:02 pm
(ir)Rational
If Jose Mourinho returns to manage Chelsea, I will indeed be an irrational fan.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
4:04 pm
TaxPayer – That’s me.
saywhat?
April 26th, 2012
4:06 pm
I’d like to see the private for profit schools (along with all other schools ) have to pass some kind of accreditation (if they don’t already), which would include a reasonable 6 year graduation rate (50%?) or be denied federal financial aid money, to keep the vultures from milking the system.
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
4:06 pm
Since I didn’t get to watch the game the other night, what did Terry do to get the red? Was it deserved (honestly?) or was it just an accumulation of yellows?
Brosephus™
April 26th, 2012
4:06 pm
G$
That’s the benefit of being human, we learn from our mistakes. Some of the financial advisors at my school would tell students not to do that. Some of the good ones would try to find all kinds of grants and stuff to keep you from having to get a loan. I was one of the very first full scholarship students that was allowed into the Resident Assistant program when it was re-started. They tried to ensure as many students got financial assistance that needed it. Since all my stuff was paid for, the room and board part of the RA package was overkill for me. They deducted that from the benefit package for me, and I only got the stipend for working.
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2012
4:07 pm
irrational,
The reason I ask is wrt when you decided to head down that path, the housing market would have been booming and I’m sure it looked very appealing at the time. How do you feel about your decision now. Would you have chosen a different field if you knew then what you know now or did you follow your dream. Just curious. No underlying gotcha or other motive.
Generation$crewed
April 26th, 2012
4:08 pm
Oscar
April 26th, 2012
3:52 pm
I’m only a few years older than (ir)rational, and I have worked at colleges in athletics since I graduated from college.
There is a shift from when I began and the current time. With the increase in social media and the decrease in actual socialization, there is a gap when much of the information regarding loans and grants. Be that by the students fault or the one giving the information fault.
Also thru the advancement in opinon facts (think twitter, FB, blogs) there is also a mass of misinforation available, leading incoming students to feel more entitled to more, while also learning how to loophole the system in regards to need and how to fill out a fafsa.
Adam
April 26th, 2012
4:08 pm
Union: Obama got the Nobel Peace prize for proposing a specific timetable for Iraq withdrawal while running for office, which was then endorsed by the Iraqi Prime Minister, and then agreed to by Bush, ALL BEFORE BUSH GOT INTO OFFICE.
So, now I can see why you cons think he had some extraordinary influence on everyone and keep calling him the “Messiah.” He really DID have a profound effect before he took office.
In other words, that timetable you keep crediting Bush with? The one for the Iraq withdrawal? The one that Obama implemented and made sure happened by the end of last year? Yep, all Obama. Not Bush’s.
Checkmate.
Towncrier
April 26th, 2012
4:09 pm
Good piece, Jay. Yet another example of government gone wild to all of our expense. For without almost mindless government funding, this would have never happened. How many decades does it take for the government to realize that there are tons of people who willing to do almost anything to milk the system? The reason I think this happens is because for the people who run things in government, it is not their money – so they don’t care like they would if it was. Government is massively inefficient and wasteful.
Brosephus™
April 26th, 2012
4:09 pm
Yeah, so?
We both know what you must do to show you are ready, grasshopper!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gASY7Lj5GPQ
Adam
April 26th, 2012
4:12 pm
Sorry, that should have read all before OBAMA got into office, or all before Bush got out, but I prefer the former. Whoops.
My Party has ALL the answers. Your party is full of poopyheads! (formerly That Black Guy)
April 26th, 2012
4:12 pm
Normal Free, Plain and Simple
April 26th, 2012
3:28 pm
“didnt obama get one of those for something?”
Yes, and I disagreed with his keeping it, but I still support him.
_________________________________________________________
I think the point was Jay pointing out that krugman has a Nobel Prize. The fact that they gave Obama one basically for winning the election shows that the process is based on politics and does not carry the weight it once did.
Adam
April 26th, 2012
4:14 pm
TBG: They gave it to him for proposing a 16 month timeline as Senator, having it endorsed by the Iraqi Prime Minister, and then Bush agreeing to that exact timeline.
Union
April 26th, 2012
4:15 pm
Union: Obama got the Nobel Peace prize for proposing a specific timetable for Iraq withdrawal while running for office, which was then endorsed by the Iraqi Prime Minister, and then agreed to by Bush, ALL BEFORE BUSH GOT INTO OFFICE..
like i said.. something for something that hadnt happened.. something for nothing..
ld
April 26th, 2012
4:16 pm
NO MORE BAILOUTS OF ANY KIND.
If the powers that be want to enable those with students loans to seek bankruptcy protection with all its potential adverse effects on future ability to obtain a loan, I have no problem with that. Each case can be judged on its own merit WITH THE EFFORT THE STUDENT PUT INTO GETTING AN EDUCATION considered–failed grades and numerous arrests for “partying” activities should be an indication of failed attempt to put themelves in a position to repay the loan. Students that went to school to “party” should NOT get a free ride. Students that can get a professional license that can make them very wealthy in the reasonably near future should NOT get a free ride.
Perhaps bankrupty courts could even be permitted to “forgive” interest and just pay the financial institutions back the money in small increments over decades.
Some alternative to another taxpayer bailout needs to be found.
Recon 0311 2533
April 26th, 2012
4:16 pm
Obamanomics continues to fail America
http://news.yahoo.com/jobless-claims-ease-four-week-average-rises-123954308–business.html
(ir)Rational
April 26th, 2012
4:16 pm
TaxPayer – The only thing I would have changed would probably have been the school I went to (whole range of issues, mostly dealing with the ability to get a license without going to grad school). I’ve been employed in the residential design field since before I graduated (luckily), but pay has been rather stagnant for the past few years. I didn’t decide to go into architecture based off what the market was doing (I grew up in the sticks and honestly had no idea what the market was doing), I did it because it is what I wanted to do. I don’t think I would advise too many people to follow me, but I do have a cousin that is thinking of doing so when he gets out of high school, and I’ve brought him to the office a few times to let him get a sense of what is going on. So, while I’m not sure that I would advocate it, I definitely wouldn’t try and discourage someone from doing it.
Bro – I’m not going to try and grab a rock out of your hand. That could be considered creepy.
Towncrier
April 26th, 2012
4:16 pm
“They gave it to him for proposing a 16 month timeline as Senator, having it endorsed by the Iraqi Prime Minister, and then Bush agreeing to that exact timeline.”
Purportedly. Let’s take a poll to see how many people think he deserved or earned it. And, if in truth he didn’t, then the question must be posed and answered: why did he then?
Generation$crewed
April 26th, 2012
4:17 pm
Brosephus™
April 26th, 2012
4:06 pm
So doesn’t a reform of the fafsa system seem needed. Wouldn’t it make far more sense to shift to more of the work study program instead of many if not most schools hiring outside parti-time help and still giving this much federal money to students. Seems to make more sense to let students do those part-time jobs and pay the students with the federal work study money? Especially those who are reciving grants and/or scholarships thru the college, state or federal system.
Seems like it may even be a way to lower tuition or stall its rise with the college’s money saved.
Brosephus™
April 26th, 2012
4:17 pm
(ir)Rational
Adam
April 26th, 2012
4:18 pm
Let’s take a poll to see how many people think he deserved or earned it. And, if in truth he didn’t, then the question must be posed and answered: why did he then?
Because one does not accept or reject Nobel Peace Prizes based on public polls.
Or did you want to maybe try to talk about this a different way?
Brosephus™
April 26th, 2012
4:19 pm
G$
No argument from me on that. I’d even go as far as to go back to what worked in the past. Use a combination of work study, internships, and apprenticeships to help pay for school while also getting practical experience in the field of work.
Adam
April 26th, 2012
4:19 pm
Alright, actually, I have to get out of here. Catch you all tomorrahs….
Towncrier
April 26th, 2012
4:22 pm
“Because one does not accept or reject Nobel Peace Prizes based on public polls.”
The question is: did Obama deserve it? I think not by a long shot. Who would not at least concede awarding it to him was questionable?
“Or did you want to maybe try to talk about this a different way?”
Why? To what end? There is no way you are going to convince me he deserved it.
Mary Elizabeth
April 26th, 2012
4:25 pm
Generation$crewed, 3:02 pm
“Mary Elizabeth,
Its crazy how teachers at current private schools seem to find a way to retire. Or do all of them have 2nd jobs as well?”
============================================
You are correct that not all public school teachers would have to take a second job in order to secure a privately-based retirement plan. That need would depend on the individual circumstances of teachers. Some might have spouses whose income is greater than theirs; some might have inherited money; some might work second jobs, among many other variables. I deliberately posed a dramatic dichotomy to point out that changing the educational system, from a public service-oriented one to a private free-market system, would change the mindset of many teachers. From my personal experiences, I have witnessed, even within public education, that there are variances in how different teachers approach their jobs.
For example, I was committed to students, teachers, and parents – schoolwide – and I used my time and effort to improve public education. But then, I knew that my retirement pension was secured. I often stayed at school until 7 or 8 pm, creating materials to be used in training sessions with students, teachers, and parents. On the other hand, I knew of a teacher who would leave school every day at 3:15 pm, so that he had time to improve various homes which he had purchased in order to sell them to make a profit. He quit teaching after 20 years, financially well-covered for his retirement. This teacher had essentially used teaching for personal financial gain. I did not consider him to be a dedicated teacher.
Now, what will happen when the whole educational system is redesigned to be one in which teachers must become free agents who will essentially be required to take care of their own pensions and financial interests? I think society will have created more teachers, like the one whom I described above, who are more self-oriented than those who view themselves as public servants to others.
ld
April 26th, 2012
4:25 pm
If gov’t is going to continue to subsidize education, it should be in gov’t schools only.
May I suggest modified military-style physical and skill training could be good for both high school and college. If the taxpayer is going to pay for something, it is no unreasonable to expect that taxpayers should get something for the money that is in the public interest. At the very least students that graduate highschool should be competent to serve in the military and/or with enough education and self-discipline to attend a technical college or skill oriented (such as educators or specific business skills) four-year ‘liberal arts”college and graduate and become self-supporting.
My Party has ALL the answers. Your party is full of poopyheads! (formerly That Black Guy)
April 26th, 2012
4:26 pm
Adam
April 26th, 2012
4:14 pm
TBG: They gave it to him for proposing a 16 month timeline as Senator, having it endorsed by the Iraqi Prime Minister, and then Bush agreeing to that exact timeline.
________________________________________________________________________
Link?
calling it like it is!
April 26th, 2012
4:32 pm
so the problem is only on the shoulders for “for profit” universities, though they may have a hand in it, what about all the non profit state and private colleges that haven’t had to cut spending to make their prospective universities affordable for kids, I guess since they got all that guaranteed pell grant money they had no incentive to cut costs! besides most of those universities have multi-million dollar endowments they don’t even touch unless they want to build a stadium or other new building to generate a buzz in the community, to exclusively blame for profit universities is short sighted and rather biased if you ask me….like you believe the only way to get a good education is through a state gov’t run university or a private non profit university….