British deploy GOP’s economic plan, return to recession

When he became prime minister of Great Britain two years ago, Conservative Party leader David Cameron began to implement an economic strategy much different than that pursued here in the United States under President Obama.

Cameron and his chancellor of the exchequer, George Osborne, decided that Plan A was to cut cut cut. They would cut their way to economic growth by slashing government spending by more than 20 percent across the board. Other aspects of their plan may sound familiar as well. Just last month, they announced that they would be cutting the top tax rate for Britain’s richest households while raising taxes on those who collect pensions, a proposal dubbed “the granny tax” because of its impact on the elderly.

A reader of the London Telegraph posts his reaction to news that Britain's economy has fallen back into a recession.

A reader of the London Telegraph posts his reaction to news that Britain's economy has fallen back into a recession.

When “Plan A” was first announced, American conservatives saw it as a model for their own economic theories. As Fox News noted back in 2010:

“The Obama administration is showing no appetite whatsoever to do what the British are doing,” said Nile Gardiner, director of the Margaret Thatcher Center for Freedom at the conservative Heritage Foundation. But, he said, the U.S. has to “at the very least do what the British are doing” to avoid a fiscal calamity.

Gardiner said congressional Republicans will be paying close attention as they craft their agenda should they end up with a majority in either chamber come Nov. 3. “I do think what Cameron is doing is going to be seen as inspirational by many conservatives on Capitol Hill,” Gardiner said.”

Yesterday, however, the Cameron government was forced to announce that the British economy has fallen back into a recession after reporting the second consecutive quarter of negative growth, the first double-dip recession in Britain since the mid-’70s.

Unemployment in Britain is rising. And while America’s gross domestic product has rebounded and by 2011 had topped pre-recession levels, GDP in Britain today remains 4 percent below what it was in 2008.

Most important, perhaps, the primary goal of Cameron’s austerity program was to reduce Britain’s deficit up front, early in the economic recovery, under the theory that by doing so they would drive growth. Instead, the deficit has continued to grow larger despite the spending cuts because it is hard to get more revenue out of an economy that is shrinking.

Economics is a difficult field in part because it is impossible to run controlled experiments to test the efficacy of various theories. However, in Britain and the United States we have two economies and two governments that took two very different courses during the same time frame.

And as we now know, the outcomes have been very different as well.

One economy is recovering, if slowly, with people returning to work and the budget deficit falling, if again too slowly. The other economy has sunk back into recession, with more people out of work and the deficit increasing as a result.

Geoff Colvin, writing in Forbes back in November 2010, eagerly embraced the experiment, arguing that it would confirm the wisdom of Britain’s approach. As he boldly put it:

“When we have a winner, the losing side will rationalize the results, saying they don’t prove much, because the two situations were different going in, and that with a little bit of tweaking, their strategy would have prevailed. We should resolve to cut through the inevitable spin and declare a winner. Whatever the results, I’ll embrace them. But I think I know how this will turn out, and it won’t be good news for America.”

His prediction has turned out to be wrong, of course. Given that evidence, I find it hard to believe that the American people will now choose to abandon a policy that has worked in favor of a strategy that our British friends have done us the favor of proving a failure.

jobloss

– Jay Bookman

308 comments Add your comment

Steve

April 25th, 2012
11:14 am

I was told by the conservative posters here that we have lost jobs under Obama? Your data says otherwise. Where do these conservatives get their fake information?

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
11:18 am

s’what I’ve been saying for MONTHS … our growth (when we had it) was anemic, at best … now, we’re back into a recession.

oh, yeah.

austerity

totally the way to go.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

April 25th, 2012
11:19 am

Economics is a difficult field in part because it is impossible to run controlled experiments to test the efficacy of various theories.

[...]

Geoff Colvin, writing in Forbes back in November 2010, eagerly embraced the experiment, arguing that it would confirm the wisdom of Britain’s approach.

[...]

His prediction has turned out to be wrong, of course.

An economist is someone that will tell you why his predictions of two years ago are wrong.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

April 25th, 2012
11:21 am

Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich is expected to suspend his presidential campaign within the next week, according to a Republican operative familiar with the decision.

Seeya!

barking frog

April 25th, 2012
11:22 am

This should shake the
world markets.

stands for decibels

April 25th, 2012
11:23 am

Where do these conservatives get their fake information?

from a balanced news diet of both Fox AND Drudge.

Lord Help Us

April 25th, 2012
11:23 am

‘And while America’s gross domestic product has rebounded and by 2011 had topped pre-recession levels…’

Is this another one of those ‘leading indicators’ someone was asking about earlier…

Brosephus™

April 25th, 2012
11:23 am

It’s Obama’s fault!!!!

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
11:24 am

having said all this … I totally get why Cameron et al did what they did …

they were focused on debt and ONLY debt, to the point of completely ignoring economic realities that you can’t cut huge swaths of the public sector when the private sector is also cutting …

bringing us to where we are today

where the original goal of keeping a strong credit rating is undermined – not because of debt – but because of economic weakness

Gordon

April 25th, 2012
11:25 am

What happened when Bush cut taxes early in his first term? Didn’t we have a huge number of consecutive months of growth? Could the British economy be affected by the near economic collapse of many nearby countries? Isn’t that also affecting the American economy somewhat?

JohnnyReb

April 25th, 2012
11:26 am

“I find it hard to believe that the American people will now choose to abandon a policy that has worked in favor of a strategy that our British friends have done us the favor of proving a failure.”

Well, get ready for disappointment come November.

And, despite what the economists stated before the great experiment, comparing the two economies as if they are similar is ridiculous. Britian is a semi-welfare state. Obama has not been able to get us that far yet, although he tries.

getalife

April 25th, 2012
11:26 am

Great post Jay.

Now the cons will admit they are dead wrong.

Yeah, right.

Paul

April 25th, 2012
11:27 am

“Gardiner said congressional Republicans will be paying close attention ”

Wanna bet?

“When we have a winner, the losing side will rationalize the results,”

Yup… but the loser who he thought it’d be. I suppose the excuses will include some variant of ‘but British conservatives are really liberal socialists….”

Slow and steady is quite an unpopular strategy for an electorate used to instant gratification. But it says a lot about the Obama Administration that they were willing to risk that approach.

Georgia on my mind..

April 25th, 2012
11:27 am

Keep em coming Jay! Thanks for keeping us informed!

ty webb

April 25th, 2012
11:28 am

ah yes, the tongue in cheek “it’s obama fault” comment…otherwise known as “I’ve got nothing, but I’m still waving my pom poms” comment.

Gordon

April 25th, 2012
11:28 am

By the way, our deficit is falling only in the short-term. We’re going to be $20T in the hole in a few years.

Aquagirl

April 25th, 2012
11:28 am

It’s Obama’s fault!!!!

No way, it’s clearly Teh Mooslims.

JohnnyReb

April 25th, 2012
11:29 am

BTW Jay, most every political junkie knows by now the jobs info is no good. It does not count the people who have given up looking for a job. I know that plays well into promoting little Barry, but its not the truth.

Lord Help Us

April 25th, 2012
11:30 am

‘We’re going to be $20T in the hole in a few years.’

More if the Ryan plan is adopted…

getalife

April 25th, 2012
11:31 am

Admit you are wrong cons.

Time to man up and admit it.

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
11:32 am

“No way, it’s clearly Teh Mooslims.”

I thought it was teh ghey

Lord Help Us

April 25th, 2012
11:32 am

‘most every political junkie knows by now the jobs info is no good. It does not count the people who have given up looking for a job’

I have a suggestion. The Obama admin should use the same approach to calculate unemployment that has been used for the past 30-40 + years.

Adam

April 25th, 2012
11:32 am

I think I’m just going to grab popcorn for this one. I can’t imagine I’ll see a cogent argument to counter Jay’s. I certainly haven’t seen anything on this subject that fits that bill yet. Just deflection and changing the subject.

getalife

April 25th, 2012
11:33 am

Ok lets try for one con to admit they are wrong.

Matti

April 25th, 2012
11:33 am

Does this mean the dollar will be worth more in the UK this summer?

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
11:35 am

“BTW Jay, most every political junkie knows by now the jobs info is no good. It does not count the people who have given up looking for a job”

dammit, LHU beat me to it …

it’s the exact same way that we’ve been measuring for decades

Ahem

April 25th, 2012
11:35 am

JohnnyReb

April 25th, 2012
11:36 am

Lord Help Us

April 25th, 2012
11:32 am

‘most every political junkie knows by now the jobs info is no good. It does not count the people who have given up looking for a job’

I have a suggestion. The Obama admin should use the same approach to calculate unemployment that has been used for the past 30-40 + years.
_____________

They are using the same methods, but that does not mean it paints the clear picture. They have the true calcuations of unemployment but like other politicans in the past choose not to use them. Instead, they look you in the eye, or have a minion like Jay write a piece showing everything is rosie.

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
11:36 am

“Does this mean the dollar will be worth more in the UK this summer?”

just in time for the Olympics

JamVet

April 25th, 2012
11:36 am

“It does not count the people who have given up looking for a job.”

Is this a recent development?

Bueller? Anyone?

Jay

April 25th, 2012
11:37 am

JohnnyReb, as the chart clearly states, those are monthly job losses or gains.

The number of discouraged workers has absolutely nothing to do with this data. It’s hard data, not a percentage of the work force, etc. Every political junkie knows that. Well, almost every one.

ty webb

April 25th, 2012
11:38 am

“the Cameron government was forced to announce that the British government has fallen back into a recession…”

not to be a stickler Jay, but shouldn’t that read that Britiain’s economy has fallen back into a recession?

stands for decibels

April 25th, 2012
11:38 am

We’re going to be $20T in the hole in a few years.

Clearly, we need a Republican president, so you can go back to ignoring the accumulated debt.

in other words

April 25th, 2012
11:39 am

“Conservative Party leader David Cameron began to implement an economic strategy much different than that pursued here in the United States under President Obama.”

jay doesn’t realize that GB is nothing like the USA. jay also forgets to mention that GB has much higher taxes etc.

jay is neither an economist nor has he ever run a business.

JohnnyReb

April 25th, 2012
11:40 am

Jay, sorry I hurt your feelings, but you know comparing the British economy to ours is ridiculous. Plus you can’t separate the British economy from the Eurozone.

You also know the number of people getting a job fades to almost insignifigance compared to the number that can’t find a job. The increase in jobs won’t even support the number of new people entering the workforce.

Adam

April 25th, 2012
11:41 am

JohnnyReb: BTW Jay, most every political junkie knows by now the jobs info is no good. It does not count the people who have given up looking for a job

Again, I draw your attention to a graph that shows that the BLS DOES count those people, and that the percentage of those not looking or discouraged is also dropping month by month:

http://www.leftrazoredge.com/2012/02/09/the-fallacy-of-real-unemployment/
Followup graph: http://www.leftrazoredge.com/2012/04/14/unemployment-numbers-march-2012-edition/table-a-15-chart-mar-2012/

Lord Help Us

April 25th, 2012
11:42 am

‘Plus you can’t separate the British economy from the Eurozone.’

Oh, there’s another good ‘un…

Jay

April 25th, 2012
11:42 am

That’s not being a stickler at all, Ty. Thanks, I’ll fix ASAP.

ByteMe

April 25th, 2012
11:43 am

Given that evidence, I find it hard to believe that the American people will now choose to abandon a policy that has worked in favor of a strategy that our British friends have done us the favor of proving a failure.

Evidence? You think the conned care about evidence?? It’s all about faith and propaganda that fuels their faith that “the other” has been “a disaster” and “driven the economy over a cliff” and so on.

Meanwhile, I predict we do a little reverse austerity after the election but before the next Congress is seated. They’ll let most of the tax cuts expire and take their lumps for the 5 quarters it takes to get back to normal and then be ready to run for re-election on “we brought the country back!”

stands for decibels

April 25th, 2012
11:43 am

a piece showing everything is rosie.

please.

>300,000 new jobs per month every month would be “rosie.”

No sane person on the left is content with the barely-above-replacement job growth we have.

It’s just that we know it would suck far worse with a bunch of austerity-obsessed conservative nutters in charge.

Stephenson Billings

April 25th, 2012
11:44 am

Ah yes, that GOP tax increase plan on the “rich”

50 per cent tax rate for higher earners in Budget 2009

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/budget/5200531/50-per-cent-tax-rate-for-higher-earners-in-Budget-2009.html

Aquagirl

April 25th, 2012
11:44 am

I thought it was teh ghey

Well, we’re both wrong. Gordon @ 11:25 nailed it…..it’s teh cheese-eating surrender monkey French.

ByteMe

April 25th, 2012
11:44 am

Jay, sorry I hurt your feelings, but you know comparing the British economy to ours is ridiculous. Plus you can’t separate the British economy from the Eurozone.

And yet if their “austerity plan” had worked out, you would have done just that and crowed that conservatism and austerity were the right plan.

Adam

April 25th, 2012
11:45 am

stands: No sane person on the left is content with the barely-above-replacement job growth we have.

It’s just that we know it would suck far worse with a bunch of austerity-obsessed conservative nutters in charge.

Pretty much. And while things are, in fact, getting better, everyone would love it if they would get better faster. But there is no policy proposal by the GOP that will accomplish that result. None.

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
11:45 am

“that the British government has fallen back into a recession”

heehee … yeah, you’re right, Ty … the British Governmetn is in a depression

(sorry, I couldn’t resisit)

Brosephus™

April 25th, 2012
11:45 am

Gordon
April 25th, 2012
11:28 am

By the way, our deficit is falling only in the short-term. We’re going to be $20T in the hole in a few years.

Rep. Ryan’s budget proposal from last year had language in it that acknowledged the debt limit would exceed the $23T mark within 10 years. That was signed off and approved by the entirety of the House GOP. Tell us something that we don’t already know and has been acknowledged, even by the fiscally conservative amongst us.

Stephenson Billings

April 25th, 2012
11:46 am

But of course it didn’t work so they scrapped it:

50p tax rate ‘failing to boost revenues’
The amount of income tax paid fell sharply last month in the first formal indication that the new 50p higher rate is not raising the expected amount of revenue.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/tax/9097219/50p-tax-rate-failing-to-boost-revenues.html

Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)

April 25th, 2012
11:46 am

austerity

totally the way to go.

Well, maybe I was dreaming, but I seem to recall back during the English elections USinUK saying something had to be done and it might as well be Cameron doing it. Was it a dream?

F. Sinkwich

April 25th, 2012
11:46 am

Hey Jay. Why doesn’t your chart go back to 2000?

Gordon

April 25th, 2012
11:46 am

SFD@11:38,

I have not ignored debt since I was about 20 years old. I don’t approve of Republican debt, and I don’t approve of Democratic debt. It is the largest problem facing us by a factor of 10. It will destroy this country. We will long for the days we could argue about Global Warming. If Obama shows leadership on the debt, I would vote for him in a second. But he won’t. So let’s keep trying someone new.

Jay

April 25th, 2012
11:46 am

Hurt my feelings, Johnny?

You don’t hurt my feelings by posting a clearly spurious charge. You hurt your own reputation here. You hurt the cause that you’re trying vainly to defend. But you do NOT hurt my feelings.

getalife

April 25th, 2012
11:48 am

Here is an opportunity for the cons to admit they are wrong to try to gain back an ounce of credibility

Not one con will man up .

ByteMe

April 25th, 2012
11:48 am

The amount of income tax paid fell sharply last month in the first formal indication that the new 50p higher rate is not raising the expected amount of revenue.

Causation or coincidence? You already decided.

Gordon

April 25th, 2012
11:49 am

Brosephus@11:45,

I was merely responding to Jay’s statement about the deficit falling. That’s it. You injected some political component to the statement. Notice I didn’t say “We will be $20T in the hole if Obama is re-elected”. You assume everyone here either loves Democrats or loves Republicans. I don’t see that much difference in the two.

JohnnyReb

April 25th, 2012
11:49 am

ByteMe

April 25th, 2012
11:44 am

Jay, sorry I hurt your feelings, but you know comparing the British economy to ours is ridiculous. Plus you can’t separate the British economy from the Eurozone.

And yet if their “austerity plan” had worked out, you would have done just that and crowed that conservatism and austerity were the right plan.
______________________

I’ll let my wife know there are now two people who knows in advance exactly what I will do.

scrappy

April 25th, 2012
11:50 am

“Whatever the results, I’ll embrace them.” – So – has Colvin embraced them as he said he would, even though his theory was wrong?

ty webb

April 25th, 2012
11:51 am

a “government recession” is something we should all get behind…at least those of us with a brain.

Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)

April 25th, 2012
11:52 am

Well, it’s about time those old geezers paid taxes, instead of laying around waiting for their guvmint check to come. And of course we got to cut the taxes on the Job Creators ’cause one day they’ll get around to—you know—creating jobs. It’s just taking time, kinda like Trickle Down.

If it takes another recession here, well, people will keep drinking beer and my job will be safe. It’s just that people will drink beer to drown their sorrows, instead of to sellabrate. Besides, I just can’t hardly stand it that somebody, somewhere out there is getting out of paying taxes.

Doggone/GA

April 25th, 2012
11:52 am

“So – has Colvin embraced them as he said he would, even though his theory was wrong?”

Probably with about as much enthusiasm as Hannity embraced being waterboarded.

Paul

April 25th, 2012
11:53 am

USinUK

“they were focused on debt and ONLY debt, to the point of completely ignoring economic realities that you can’t cut huge swaths of the public sector when the private sector is also cutting …

bringing us to where we are today”

That’s about the most informative post I’ve read on this thread. And it does seem to cast doubt on much of what we hear from Republicans.

However, I don’t think it means we should give up on deficit reduction. I guess it’s like the difference between a sensible diet and a diet comprised of water, celery, carrots and a vitamin pill. Both will lose weight, but one will end up in hospital.

Don't Forget

April 25th, 2012
11:53 am

Gee, know who else would have predicted these results……….. Keynes!

Stephenson Billings

April 25th, 2012
11:54 am

Is this part of the GOP plan too?

“Budget proposals represented by Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne yesterday would also, he said, mark the start of far-reaching tax reform in Britain, which would raise the threshold at which the poorest started paying tax.

From next year, nobody earning less than £9,205 (Dh53,558) will not have to pay tax, a rise in the tax starting point of more than £1,000, resulting in an additional million people no longer being required to pay tax.”

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/europe/uk-coalition-cuts-high-earners-50-tax-rate-to-be-competitive

JohnnyReb

April 25th, 2012
11:54 am

Jay

April 25th, 2012
11:46 am

Hurt my feelings, Johnny?

You don’t hurt my feelings by posting a clearly spurious charge. You hurt your own reputation here. You hurt the cause that you’re trying vainly to defend. But you do NOT hurt my feelings.
_________________

Jay, you are just like little Timmy when he testified before congress. He admited they (the Obama administration) does not have a plan. They just know they don’t like the Republican plan.

I’m not worried about my reputation here. I don’t have some illusion that all of a sudden I will post something that converts Liberals to Conservatives. I can’t walk on water either.

ByteMe

April 25th, 2012
11:54 am

I’ll let my wife know there are now two people who knows in advance exactly what I will do.

Seems I’m in good company then :)

stands for decibels

April 25th, 2012
11:54 am

I’ll let my wife know there are now two people who knows in advance exactly what I will do.

ok, that made me laugh.

Doggone/GA

April 25th, 2012
11:55 am

“From next year, nobody earning less than £9,205 (Dh53,558) will not have to pay tax”

Is that a direct quote? Because if it is the double negative says they WILL have to pay tax.

scrappy

April 25th, 2012
11:56 am

If insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results, this means the Cons that still want to try this here and actually believe it will work, are insane.
Can we lock them up & keep them from voting? :)

ty webb

April 25th, 2012
11:58 am

Since Jay included a reader comment from the London Telegraph in his blog, we can all hope some writer over there is including one from Jay’s blog in some future blog/column. UsinUk, please keep a lookout over there for us…I just hope it’s not one in “haiku” form, those don’t speak well for us Yanks.

rightwing troll

April 25th, 2012
11:59 am

“Obama has not been able to get us that far yet, although he tries.”

Details please?

Jay

April 25th, 2012
12:00 pm

“Hey Jay. Why doesn’t your chart go back to 2000?”

It’s funny. Most of the time we’re told by conservatives that it is somehow impolite to even mention George W. Bush in such discussions. Bush is He Who Must Not Be Named. But at other times?

But let me answer the question two ways, Sink:

First, you might as well ask why it doesn’t go back to 1940. Or 1890. The answer would be the same: Because the chart is supposed to depict what has happened to jobs during this recession and recovery.

Second, just for kicks, let’s go back and take a look at the employment numbers anyway, just to humor our friend Sink:

Total number of private sector jobs in January, 2001: 111,631,000
Total number of private sector jobs in January, 2009: 110,985,000

That’s right. Over the eight years in which George W. Bush was president, this country LOST private-sector jobs. If you want me to put that in a chart, I could probably do so. But I don’t think it would look any prettier than it does in simple numbers.

rightwing troll

April 25th, 2012
12:01 pm

” If Obama shows leadership on the debt, I would vote for him in a second. But he won’t. So let’s keep trying someone new.”

Define “leadership” please?

Like proposing compromise to get us where we need to go? Or like doubling down on failed and disproved policies that got us here?

We can’t cut our way out of this.

stands for decibels

April 25th, 2012
12:02 pm

ok, Gordon @ 11.46, mine was more of a collective “you;” while I find it interesting that I’m hearing a LOT more about these trillions-with-a-T debt numbers since Obama took office, I recognize that plenty of people have worried over the debt for many years, over several administrations. That said…

I don’t approve of Republican debt, and I don’t approve of Democratic debt. It is the largest problem facing us by a factor of 10.

LargEST? factor of 10? I do think you severely overstate the problem.

Mere accumulated debt is not in and of itself problematic. We don’t need to pay it down, necessarily (remember the squawking from the Federal Reserve when it was suggested maybe we could use the projected tax surpluses for just that? I think it would be a “like to do” sort of thing, not a “need to do” deal) – we do, however, have to be in a position so that we’re not caught off guard by crippling debt service every year, and obviously the longer we run deficits, the more possible that becomes.

But that’s not the immediate problem. Our immediate problem is weak job growth. IMHO, we have to spend more money; we can’t cut our way back to prosperity, not with such a weak recovery.

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:02 pm

I second dB’s 11:54

getalife

April 25th, 2012
12:03 pm

Failed ideology but the cons will never admit it.

You just gave to laugh at them.

mm

April 25th, 2012
12:03 pm

And the cons keep saying we’re going to end up like Europe. Yes, we are if we let the GOP back in control.

rightwing troll

April 25th, 2012
12:04 pm

It would seem that the more money we give to our “job creating” friends, the more they hoard and the more they have to spend to buy the next election, but not many jobs “created”.

USMC

April 25th, 2012
12:04 pm

“British deploy GOP’s economic plan, return to recession”–Jay Bookman

North Korea and Cuba deploy Obama’s/DemocRat’s economic plan, still in depression! :-)

(By the way, the DemocRat’s economic plan destroyed the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic and and many other countries in Eastern Europe)

getalife

April 25th, 2012
12:04 pm

JamVet

April 25th, 2012
12:04 pm

That’s right. Over the eight years in which George W. Bush was president, this country LOST private-sector jobs. If you want me to put that in a chart, I could probably do so. But I don’t think it would look any prettier than it does in simple numbers.

Bring back George!!! Bring back George!!! Bring back George!!!

Brosephus™

April 25th, 2012
12:05 pm

Gordon @ 11:49

I merely stated what’s fact about what DC insiders really acknowledge about the debt. If I really wanted to inject politics into the debate, I would have added the fact that those Republicans co-signed that bill all the while crying about raising the debt limit. That aided our credit rating loss, if you don’t remember.

I don’t assume anybody loves any party. I was merely stating that your $20T figure was basically meaningless since even the most fiscal conservative in DC have acknowledged that it will exceed that amount.

getalife

April 25th, 2012
12:06 pm

usmc,

That con knee jerk reaction is sad but hilarious.

Misty Fyed

April 25th, 2012
12:06 pm

Again an incomplete picture. England still has a queen for goodness sake. Apples and Oranges.

And calling our actions a success is a bit premature. Whatever growth we have was purchased with 5 trillion in debt…so far…We are simply passing the buck to another generation.

Jay

April 25th, 2012
12:06 pm

As to the deficit and debt, of course we have to address it. As I’ve said repeatedly, we have to both cut spending and raise taxes to bring our debt under control.

The question is when. Do we take those steps now with a very fragile economy? Or do we nurse the economy back to health and then take those steps? The British have tied the first strategy, and have discovered that it is making both their economy AND their deficit even worse.

Think of the economy as a patient brought into the emergency room with serious life-threatening injuries. Let’s say, just to be poetic, that a house collapsed on him.

As it happens, the patient also has cancer. Do you treat the life-threatening wounds AND immediately begin chemotherapy and radiation, knowing that in his weakened condition those treatments might kill him?

Or do you nurse him back to strength and give him time to heal those wounds before you inject him with the chemo and radiation?

rightwing troll

April 25th, 2012
12:06 pm

“North Korea and Cuba deploy Obama’s/DemocRat’s economic plan, still in depression! ”

Very clever, you clearly are a tribute to all those in uniform…

Anyway, details and facts please?

USMC

April 25th, 2012
12:06 pm

The DemocRat’s War on Women…

DemocRat Presidential contender John Edwards Called Rielle Hunter A ‘Crazy Slut’
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/25/andrew-young-john-edwards-rielle-hunter_n_1451820.html#s73864&title=Love_At_First

They BOTH suck

April 25th, 2012
12:07 pm

Thulsa

If you are looking in………….. Post the Reagan numbers you love to post

No one can bring up Bush, but Reagan……. well that is another story………….

Post them TD

USMC

April 25th, 2012
12:07 pm

Comrade Obama’s WAR on SUCCESS is imploding…

Younger Voters Shift From Obama
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/25/obama-young-voters_n_1451667.html

JamVet

April 25th, 2012
12:08 pm

From downstairs, I present for your enjoyment, the posterboy of the Georgia GOP…

kh
April 25th, 2012
11:50 am

As usual, some blacks complained, and the banks got sued for only fixing up their vacant homes in white areas, while the black areas remained with broken and boarded up windows, wiring, copper pipes, and appliances stolen. Why should the banks fix them up??? The blacks turned those areas into ghetto’s, as usual, then a few bright ones complain when the area looks bad. Why should the banks spend THOUSANDS of dollars on MANY homes, to put new stuff in? Just so they can steal it again?

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:08 pm

:lol:

one jerkwad calling someone names vs. the federal government and numerous states attacking women’s rights …

paaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaathetic.

Mary Elizabeth

April 25th, 2012
12:08 pm

Tying in thoughts from the last thread to this thread, please read the following column, in full, by Paul Krugman. Perhaps Georgia’s legislators will finally cease the “cut, cut, cutting” of government programs here in Georgia, and start reinvesting in our state’s infrastructure, once again. That would be a saner and wiser plan for economic recovery in Georgia. See below excerpted words from Krugman’s New York Times’ editorial of February 19, 2012, entitled, “Pain Without Gain”:

“The point is that we could actually do a lot to help our economies simply by reversing the destructive austerity of the last two years. That’s true even in America, which has avoided full-fledged austerity at the federal level but has seen big spending and employment cuts at the state and local level. Remember all the fuss about whether there were enough ’shovel ready’ projects to make large-scale stimulus feasible? Well, never mind: all the federal government needs to do to give the economy a big boost is provide aid to lower-level governments, allowing these governments to rehire the hundreds of thousands of schoolteachers they have laid off and restart the building and maintenance projects they have canceled.

Look, I understand why influential people are reluctant to admit that policy ideas they thought reflected deep wisdom actually amounted to utter, destructive folly. But it’s time to put delusional beliefs about the virtues of austerity in a depressed economy behind us.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/20/opinion/krugman-pain-without-gain.html?ref=paulkrugman

getalife

April 25th, 2012
12:08 pm

Now deficits do matter to the cons proving cheney was dead wrong.

Right cons?

Doggone/GA

April 25th, 2012
12:09 pm

“I second dB’s 11:54″

Me too…but I strongly suspect he VASTLY underestimate the number of people who could have made the prediction!

Brosephus™

April 25th, 2012
12:09 pm

It would seem that the more money we give to our “job creating” friends, the more they hoard and the more they have to spend to buy the next election, but not many jobs “created”.

You are looking at it the wrong way. They create jobs at SuperPAC offices, K Street lobbying houses, campaign ad directors, cameramen, audio mixers, ….. There are jobs being created. They probably just won’t lead to full employment. :)

Steve

April 25th, 2012
12:09 pm

And is anyone else noticing that politics in Europe, due to the current economic crisis, is moving further to the left as their citizens are demanding that the rich pay more in taxes and to stop starving government via tax cuts? It’s the same thing going on here, but we’re just a little slower to get it.

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:10 pm

from usmc’s link

“But a new Harvard poll suggests the president may face a harder sales job with younger voters this time around. Obama led Romney by 12 points among those ages 18-24, according to the survey. Among those in the 25-29 age group, Obama held a 23-point advantage.”

ohnoes!!!!! Obama is STILL AHEAD ahead by nearly 25% of the vote!!!! panic at the disco!!!

JamVet

April 25th, 2012
12:10 pm

the federal government and numerous states attacking women’s rights …

What????

I’m sure you’re mistaken! NONE of that happened!

Unless you are referring to the hundreds and hundreds of bills designed to humiliate and control women, written by…………………………………………..Republican men..

Jefferson

April 25th, 2012
12:11 pm

Gomer you will always be a private, there is nowhere for you.

ty webb

April 25th, 2012
12:11 pm

“It would seem that the more money we give to our “job creating” friends,…”

and there it is, the “mind” of the left…not taking as much money away from someone equals “giving” them money…good grief!

getalife

April 25th, 2012
12:12 pm

I guess cameron is history with his murdoch problem.

cons can’t govern.

Period.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

April 25th, 2012
12:13 pm

…not taking as much money away…

And there it is, the “mind” of the right.

Don't Forget

April 25th, 2012
12:15 pm

Wow, despite all those cuts the Brits deficit went up. Imagine that.

This election is important. If the tea party gets it’s way, we’ll go into another recession or worse. Growth will help the deficit more than cuts. But instead of raising rates like Greenspan did when the growth finally gets going good, we should then cut spending.

don't believe the hype

April 25th, 2012
12:16 pm

getalife, how can you believe the economy is getting better. as I see it, if the economy was going so darn well, my fortune 500 company would be gaining revenue not losing it, our vacation benefits were cut last year, our raise was cut last year, we just closed 25 service centers to pay for more taxes that are coming in 2013, if the economy was doing so well, businesses would not be cutting employer benefits. shoot, even the new york times is cutting benefits….and their employees are fit to be tied…..

our debt is out of control, we have too much gov’t control of our economy, what we are experiencing under Obama is not a recovery, it’s a coma………

ty webb

April 25th, 2012
12:19 pm

Kamchak,
touche`

getalife

April 25th, 2012
12:20 pm

don’t.

The numbers show it is getting better but we had a gop total collapse.

Do you want to go back to that?

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:20 pm

“England still has a queen for goodness sake. Apples and Oranges. ”

what does that have to do with the price of peas in Piccadilly???

JamVet

April 25th, 2012
12:20 pm

don’t believe the hype,

Please square that with this irrefutable fact.

The nation’s workers may be struggling, but American companies just had their best quarter ever.
The New York Times

American businesses earned profits at an annual rate of $1.659 trillion in the third quarter, according to a Commerce Department report released Tuesday. That is the highest figure recorded since the government began keeping track over 60 years ago, at least in nominal or noninflation-adjusted terms.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/24/business/economy/24econ.html

Maybe the fat cats who run your company aren’t shooting you straight?

Nah, never mind, that could never happen…

getalife

April 25th, 2012
12:23 pm

The con knee jerk reaction to their failed ideology will make this thread the most hilarious ever :)

Doggone/GA

April 25th, 2012
12:24 pm

“what does that have to do with the price of peas in Piccadilly???”

I’m trying to figure that one out too!

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

April 25th, 2012
12:25 pm

(ir)Rational — if you’re lurking about:

Lio Messi was just awesome at the Camp Nou yesterday. He hit the crossbar on that PK most awesomely.

USMC

April 25th, 2012
12:26 pm

“one jerkwad calling someone names vs. the federal government and numerous states attacking women’s rights …”–UsinUK

Not exactly UsinUK’s tone when RUSH LIMBAUGH said the same vulgar thing to Sandra Fluck… :-)

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:26 pm

Kam … congrats to you for your boys in blue!!!

even reporters here were saying DAYUM!!!

jconservative

April 25th, 2012
12:27 pm

“I was told by the conservative posters here that we have lost jobs under Obama? Your data says otherwise.”

We have lost jobs under the last 8 presidents. Here are the numbers arranged by decade in the interest of brevity. To date who is in the White House is irrevelant.

Net Job Creation by Decade

1960’s……….31%
1970’s……….27%
1980’s……….20%
1990’s……….20%
2000’s…………0%
US Bureau of Labor Statistics

Aquagirl

April 25th, 2012
12:27 pm

our vacation benefits were cut last year, our raise was cut last year

Chances are your CEO’s pay is up. I’m sure he/she will trickle down on you soon.

larry

April 25th, 2012
12:27 pm

my fortune 500 company would be gaining revenue not losing it, our vacation benefits were cut last year, our raise was cut last year, we just closed 25 service centers to pay for more taxes that are coming in 2013

Funny, i was with a company who did that same exact thing two years ago, blamed it on taxes just to find out the CEO got a nice 500,000+ dollar raise.

SwamiDave

April 25th, 2012
12:27 pm

Quite frankly, declaring the conclusion determined NOW is much like a football team declaring a win after scoring a 1st half touchdown of a close game.

The facts we know are:

- Both countries (as well as many others) went into a recession.
- One country targeted a path toward more austerity. Another followed a path of increased deficit spending in the form of stimulus.
- One country is already reporting re-entry to recession (the “double-dip”). The other hasn’t yet (and *may* not).

The near & longer term outcomes are by no means final yet. History typically favors individuals and enterprises that spend within their means and do not predicate upon stealing from one group to provide (and take political credit) for unearned benefits and transfer payments to another. It is usually harsh to those who attempt to “spend themselves to prosperity” and rationalize a political philosophy of redistributionist theft.

-SD

Of course, *IF* the U.S. economy experiences a “double-dip”, I sure it will be Bush’s fault…..or the oil companies…..or the European Union……or Arab Spring……or the rich……or insurance companies….or…..

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
12:27 pm

Most important, perhaps, the primary goal of Cameron’s austerity program was to reduce Britain’s deficit up front, early in the economic recovery, under the theory that by doing so they would drive growth. Instead, the deficit has continued to grow larger despite the spending cuts because it is hard to get more revenue out of an economy that is shrinking.

All I can say to that statement is that you have the short run, and you have the long run. Personally, I’d rather trade a bit of short term pain in order to alleviate the longer term suffering.

As it happens, the patient also has cancer. Do you treat the life-threatening wounds AND immediately begin chemotherapy and radiation, knowing that in his weakened condition those treatments might kill him?

The only problem with your health care analogy, Jay, is that our Congress doesn’t appear to have the political will to render ANY beneficial treatment at all. Just a bunch of band-aids and pain killers so far from my perspective.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

April 25th, 2012
12:28 pm

USinUK

Thanks, but I will admit I lost faith when JT was red-carded and two minutes later Barça scored what I believed to be the deciding goal.

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:29 pm

usmc – “Not exactly UsinUK’s tone when RUSH LIMBAUGH said the same vulgar thing to Sandra Fluck”

yeah. rush limbaugh. all by his lonesome. on the air across the nation. on multiple days. no one else from the right joined in. and everyone on the right tripped all over themselves to criticize his use of language.

and again – when you see dems at the state and federal level attacking women’s rights, THEN it’s the Democratic Party’s war on women …

until that time, it’s just 1 lone jerkwad .

Brosephus™

April 25th, 2012
12:30 pm

jcon

I guess he doesn’t understand what a “jobless” recovery really means. I really, really loathe that term too….

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
12:30 pm

It’s really quite simple: Conservatives can’t govern.

Cosby

April 25th, 2012
12:31 pm

You have to be kidding. I do not have tiime to dig inot this comprison but the US economy is anemic at best. US debt continues to eat up the GDP, Obama continues to spend – print more money than all 43 Presidents before combined have done including Bush. Jobs and the working force are no where near the levels they were prior to 2009. energy cost are stedily rising a lot to do with regulations. business is not jumping for joy and fear more and more regulation. Gas prices are at least double than 2009 and eating into spendable income for the working stiffs. Canada went this route about 20 years agao and are just now digging out of it. To compare the US to Britian is a little humorous but then anything to spend spedn and regulate regulate and the government knows best…horse squeeze

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
12:31 pm

The newest conservative myth is that the upheavals in the Middle East — called the Arab Spring but occurring too in non-Arab countries like Iran — are a result of the Iraq War. The “freedom” that George W. Bush brought to Iraq had a domino effect on other countries in the region, the argument goes. Neocon Robert Kagan told Salon recently that “[t]here were repeated free elections in Iraq and that undoubtedly had some effect on how neighboring people views their government.” Said Kagan: “I think Egyptians said. ‘If the Iraqis can have elections, why can’t we have elections?’

salon.com

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:32 pm

“our vacation benefits were cut last year, our raise was cut last year”

welp, you should pull yourself up by your bootstraps and stop whining!!! you think you’re ENTITLED to vacation benefits!!! where is THAT in the Constitution??? where are RAISES mentioned in the constitution!!!

eat your gruel and be happy

getalife

April 25th, 2012
12:32 pm

Told ya.

Most hilarious thread ever :)

Great job Jay.

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
12:32 pm

This election is important. If the tea party gets it’s way, we’ll go into another recession or worse. Growth will help the deficit more than cuts. But instead of raising rates like Greenspan did when the growth finally gets going good, we should then cut spending.

DF–I doubt if there is a person on Earth who would dispute the fact that economic growth is the “cure”. My question is exactly WHAT have Obama and the Dems done to spur economic growth?? And please don’t trot out the failed stimulus spending. As far as I’m concerned, we only got about 10 cents of growth for each 1 dollar spent. It’s not a sustainable way to “grow” the economy.

Steve

April 25th, 2012
12:34 pm

Cosby, do you not even remember the Great Recession of 2008 and how we got there and how things have improved since? Really??

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
12:35 pm

I see Cosby has been watching Fox News….sigh. Same old talking points.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

April 25th, 2012
12:36 pm

Cosby, do you not even remember the Great Recession of 2008 and how we got there…

Ssshhhhh. Remember, we cannot mention He Who Shouldn’t Be Named.

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
12:36 pm

As far as I’m concerned, we only got about 10 cents of growth for each 1 dollar spent

source? or did it come off the top of your head?

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
12:37 pm

Once again, here’s our current national “balance sheet”, scaled down to a household sized budget:

This year we’re spending $38,000 on a $29,000 income, thus putting another $9000 on the “credit card”. Our current “credit card balance” is $153,000.

Am I the only one who sees something drastically wrong with this scenario?? If the US were a stock, it would be de-listed from the stock market exchange.

Brosephus™

April 25th, 2012
12:39 pm

Just a bunch of band-aids and pain killers so far from my perspective.

Bruno

I wouldn’t even give them credit for that. I’d say they’re using the approach that Chris Rock said his dad uses…

That’s all we had when l was a kid: Robitussin. No matter what you got, Robitussin better handle it. Daddy, l got asthma. – Robitussin. l got cancer. – Robitussin. l broke my leg, Daddy poured Robitussin on it. “Yeah, boy, let that ‘tussin get in there. Yeah, boy, let that ‘tussin get on down to the bone. The ‘tussin ought to straighten out the bone. lt’s good.”

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:41 pm

“If the US were a stock, it would be de-listed from the stock market exchange.”

but it’s not.

the US is not a business.

it is not a household.

it is a government – and, as such, has different operational demands than either of the other two.

unless, of course, you’re worried about the people in the next county over attacking your county and ransacking your Starbucks

Steve

April 25th, 2012
12:41 pm

Conservatives seem to hate America. They disrespect the President at every turn, and they would prefer America to fail as long as their policies are sustained (allowing the wealthy to continue to gain more wealth and power). It’s sickening.

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:42 pm

Bro – :lol: love Chris Rock

Brosephus™

April 25th, 2012
12:42 pm

Quite frankly, declaring the conclusion determined NOW is much like a football team declaring a win after scoring a 1st half touchdown of a close game.

That’s not a very good analogy because of the Crimson Tide effect. When you have a defense as stout as Alabama, all one really needs in most cases is a single touchdown. There are exceptions to the rule, such as, when your placekicker has a case of blasterfootitis. That’s typically the exception as opposed to the norm though.

Mr Right

April 25th, 2012
12:43 pm

Obama’s policies are somewhat like Greece’s so lets see a chart on how that’s working out for them!

Don't Forget

April 25th, 2012
12:45 pm

Well Bruno, compared to their GDP, the chinese had a stimulus that was 3 times as large as ours and they now have 8% growth. The stimulus was based on figures that underestimated the downturn consideerably. It wasn’t done well and it wasn’t big enough/long enough for the degree of decline we have seen.

Butch Cassidy

April 25th, 2012
12:46 pm

JohnnyReb – “most every political junkie knows by now the jobs info is no good. It does not count the people who have given up looking for a job”

Damn, that must mean that under Bush, the unemployment rate was actually 8% to 9%. Why no bitching about the numbers then?

carlosgvv

April 25th, 2012
12:46 pm

The number one goal of the Republicans is to keep their corporate masters happy. With that in mind, it’s up to Big Business to decide whether the Republicans should stick to the British model or not. Whatever economic model generates the most profit and the lowest taxes will win with Business and, hence, the Republicans. If Romney wins the election and Republicans are in control of the House and Senate, then you may be sure that whatever economic model is chosen, Big Business will win and the American people will lose.

Brosephus™ - Let that 'tussin get on down to the bone...

April 25th, 2012
12:47 pm

USinner

That’s probably the cure our health care system is waiting on… Robitussin.

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
12:47 pm

source? or did it come off the top of your head?

Finn–I would hope that my word choice is an indication that my statement came in the form of an opinion. It’s very hard to make definitive statements about the efficacy of various economic policies as Jay points out above: “Economics is a difficult field in part because it is impossible to run controlled experiments to test the efficacy of various theories.” So, we are left with conjecture and opinion. From my point of view, the economy was going to recover on its own, with no outside input needed, simply due to long established business cycles. As was discussed in the last thread, the vast oversupply of houses in our country caused a huge sector or our economy–the housing market–to tank. Even the most liberal among you here today must certainly realize that there is no short-term fix for that. We just have to be patient.

My 10 cents on the dollar opinion is based on how little the job market has improved in spite of spending an extra trillion dollars or so. Not much bang for the buck there IMO. Do you have a different opinion??

mm

April 25th, 2012
12:47 pm

“our debt is out of control, we have too much gov’t control of our economy”

I’m so tired of seeing this garbage.

Aside from the $700 billion stimulus, of which 40% was tax cuts, the increased debt has come from Iraq, Afghanistan, Medicare Part D, the Bush tax cuts,a dn the recession (lost revenues).

You cons can spin this every which way, but these are facts.

Don't Forget

April 25th, 2012
12:48 pm

the US is not a business.

Exactly. Heard yesterday that the only president who graduated from business school was W. The only other businessman was Hoover. You can’t run a government like a business anymore than you can run a business like a government or a boat like a train etc.

[...] Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) [...]

Brosephus™ - Let that 'tussin get on down to the bone...

April 25th, 2012
12:48 pm

Well Bruno, compared to their GDP, the chinese had a stimulus that was 3 times as large as ours and they now have 8% growth.

Sounds like the Chinese did enough stimulating to produce a happy ending. The US…. not so much. :)

Watkins

April 25th, 2012
12:49 pm

Why does this have to be so hard? We clearly have to address our profligate spending habits, but even the dimmest economist should see that sucking money out of the economy during a downturn will produce a vacuum that will suffocate recovery. Continue restrained but sufficient fiscal policy (cuts here, spending there) nursing the recovery. The problem is an inept congress who, when recovery comes will be unable to make the hard cuts. For a great read on the topic, see “That Used to Be Us” by Thomas Friedman.
By the way, what’s Geoff of Forbes saying now?

Granny Godzilla - Union Thugette

April 25th, 2012
12:49 pm

And from the Mitt America pageant we get offered the Bush Economic plan – Updated.

and no mention of world peace.

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:49 pm

“Obama’s policies are somewhat like Greece’s so lets see a chart on how that’s working out for them!”

yay!!!!

I’ll play.

HOW???

How are Obama’s policies like Greece’s???

and, please … show your work.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

April 25th, 2012
12:50 pm

Obama’s policies are somewhat like Greece’s…

And an election is like a football game

And a national budget is like a household budget.

And the USA is like a stock listed on the NYSE.

And my Fortune 500 company is indicative of everything in corporate America.

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:50 pm

Brocephus – just ruuuuuuuuuub in the ‘tussin and let it get to work on those high medical costs …

(or you could just drink it to forget that you just lost your house because you got sick)

mm

April 25th, 2012
12:51 pm

“From my point of view, the economy was going to recover on its own, with no outside input needed, simply due to long established business cycles”

Sorry, the US government has always increased spending to get out of recessions. That is, until Obama took office. The GOP new spending would get us out. But they also knew their dumb voters would buy into their BS about the deficit. So they chose to starve the economy and lay off state and federal workers to make the job numbers worse. You cons are not very bright.

Mr Right

April 25th, 2012
12:51 pm

How are Obama’s policies like Greece’s???

Ever hear of entitlements? Spend money like payday will never come!

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
12:52 pm

Well Bruno, compared to their GDP, the chinese had a stimulus that was 3 times as large as ours and they now have 8% growth. The stimulus was based on figures that underestimated the downturn consideerably. It wasn’t done well and it wasn’t big enough/long enough for the degree of decline we have seen.

DF–Sorry to trot out the old apples/oranges cliche, but I don’t see how our economy can be compared to the Chinese. We’re swimming in debt while they aren’t. We have a “mature” economy, in which further growth is hard to eke out, while they are in the middle of perhaps their greatest economic expansion. On a global scale, they have a huge advantage over us due to all of the cheap labor.

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:53 pm

Kam – 12:50 – you forgot one …

and the door is ajar …

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
12:54 pm

Even if I did have an opinion, I wouldn’t put down hard numbers without a reliable source.

That’s like yer boy Doocy with his “Unlike some people…” remark which got repeated as fact on several other news channels.

If my wife thinks we spend 110% of our income every month and I think we spend 50% of our income every month, what is the point of discussing it until we have numbers we can agree are correct and draw the correct conclusions?

getalife

April 25th, 2012
12:54 pm

“Obama: Romney Can’t Say ‘Everything I’ve Said For The Last 6 Months, I Didn’t Mean’” Aol.

Check and mate.

You are clinging to a failed ideology cons and are marginalized by the American voters.

It don’t get any better than that :)

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:54 pm

“Ever hear of entitlements? Spend money like payday will never come!”

you mean the same entitlements we’ve had for the last 70 years??? Obama has been setting those policies from before he was born???

dayum, he IS powerful!!!

Butch Cassidy

April 25th, 2012
12:54 pm

Misty Fyed – “We are simply passing the buck to another generation.”

Just as we’ve done for the last 30 years. However it only seemed to become an issue once the Republicans lost most of the House, the Senate and the Whitehouse.

stands for decibels

April 25th, 2012
12:55 pm

Sounds like the Chinese did enough stimulating to produce a happy ending. The US…. not so much.

which is whatcha get when a country is founded by bunch of Puritans. No happy endings.

Brosephus™ - Let that 'tussin get on down to the bone...

April 25th, 2012
12:55 pm

USinner

True… The ‘tussin can not only move, it can re-move!

Don't Forget

April 25th, 2012
12:55 pm

Bruno
From my point of view, the economy was going to recover on its own, with no outside input needed, simply due to long established business cycles.

That’s where you’re wrong IMO. This was not a business cycle recession agreed????? It was the result of a financial and housing market crash. So how could the business cycle correct it?

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:55 pm

“while they are in the middle of perhaps their greatest economic expansion”

totally agree with you that this is their greatest economic expansion since the Ming Dynasty – but, I do question their unaudited numbers …

mm

April 25th, 2012
12:56 pm

“On a global scale, they have a huge advantage over us due to all of the cheap labor”

And who’s using their cheap labor? American corporations. When confronted with a choice between a better US economy or profits, the corporations choose proft, every time.

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
12:56 pm

they are in the middle of perhaps their greatest economic expansion

Yeah, they got our jobs over there, too!

stands for decibels

April 25th, 2012
12:57 pm

By the way, about the loyal conservatives here whingeing about how Uppity Obama somehow done singlehandedly put us 4 trillion or so in the hole…

I have no idea where they get such ideas! Surely a responsible political party like the GOP would set their rank and file straight, yes?

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
12:58 pm

but it’s not. the US is not a business. it is not a household. it is a government – and, as such, has different operational demands than either of the other two.

USinUK (and others)–Obviously the government, which has the ability to simply print more money, cannot be directly compared to a business or household which has to deal with their debt problems within the income they have. However, we’ve gotten ourselves so far in debt now that the only realistic solution is massive inflation. Is this an acceptable solution to you??

Mr Right

April 25th, 2012
12:59 pm

Yes we entitlements have been here for years but how much have they increased under Obama? Is there a limit to what we can give away?

Don't Forget

April 25th, 2012
1:00 pm

Bruno, China has cheap labor that is also unskilled. Long term that’s a loser for them unless they change it and educate their people. There are limitations to comparisons but you are reducing all of economics to opinion and conjecture if no comparison can be made.

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
1:00 pm

“However, we’ve gotten ourselves so far in debt now that the only realistic solution is massive inflation. ”

massive inflation???

and that would be because businesses are hiring like mad to the point that wage wars are going on …

sorry, but massive inflation isn’t a problem in the near-term.

Lord Help Us

April 25th, 2012
1:01 pm

‘but how much have they increased under Obama?’

A lot less than under GWB…don’t recall you protesting then…

270 more days

April 25th, 2012
1:01 pm

Kinda like the overweight person that is told he must loose weight before he can have a required knee replacement………………………….

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

April 25th, 2012
1:02 pm

USinUK (and others)–Obviously the government, which has the ability to simply print more money, cannot be directly compared to a business or household…

Yet obviously, you did.

Look before I leap...

April 25th, 2012
1:02 pm

To the Fortune 500 guy with the vacation and raise woes.
If your company is downsizing and cutting costs, it’s because there is too much company for the amount of business they do.
No company pro-actively downsizes in anticipation of higher taxes. They may slow are even stall growth, but if there are apples on the tree, they aren’t gonna stop pickin ‘em simply because the bad ole tax man is waiting by the market.

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:03 pm

You know the Con argument on health care – socialized medicine is bad, just look at France, Greece and England.

Then you bring up Switzerland, Canada, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Denmark, Spain, etc and they don’t ever respond since they’ve already made their point and you are never going to change their minds on that issue.

Aquagirl

April 25th, 2012
1:03 pm

Obama has been setting those policies from before he was born???

Remember, some of these people think he placed his own fake birth announcement in a newspaper. They’re terrified our country is run by a Kenyan with a time machine.

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
1:04 pm

Even if I did have an opinion, I wouldn’t put down hard numbers without a reliable source.

Finn–Did you follow the logic behind Jay’s statement above that economic theories can never be objectively tested because we can never have a “control group” by which to measure the results of any specific policy against?? In other words, there are no “hard numbers” available. All we can do is look for analogies and apply some common sense. Jay’s “common sense” suggests that austerity measures are harmful to the economy. And, in a short run sense, I agree with him. However, some of us, like Newt and myself, are “Big Idea” people, who are more concerned with the long-term health of our economy than whatever short term pain we must go through to get to a better place. Capiche??

Don't Forget

April 25th, 2012
1:05 pm

Bruno, why do you say the government can simply “print more money”? Is that what you think is happening? We are not on a gold standard. The currency is merely a medium of exchange. There is no need to print more money. It’s value is related to our ability to pay our debts but that is much different than the “print more money” notion of a currency that is backed in some government owned assets.

Butch Cassidy

April 25th, 2012
1:05 pm

Mr Right – “Yes we entitlements have been here for years but how much have they increased under Obama? Is there a limit to what we can give away?”

Well, right now they consume a mere 13% of the budget, how much would you like. Oh, and does the other 87% phase you at all, or are you just mad at food stamps?

stands for decibels

April 25th, 2012
1:05 pm

entitlements have been here for years but how much have they increased under Obama?

I can think of very few major increases to anything one might term an “entitlement” under this president. There was an expansion of SCHIP (which probably helped, rather than hurt, fiscally) and maybe you could count HAMP if you wanted to stretch things, and… um…

I’m sure Mr. Right can fill me in on this though.

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
1:05 pm

Yet obviously, you did.

And obviously some here understand what analogies are all about, and some don’t……..

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
1:06 pm

“Yes we entitlements have been here for years but how much have they increased under Obama? Is there a limit to what we can give away?”

what are you talking about???

what are we “giving away” – surely, you don’t mean SSN, which people pay into … or unemployment, which businesses pay into … or medicare/medicaid, which we all support …

so, please. tell me. what entitlements have increased massively under Obama, making him JUST LIKE GREECE.

Illegal Alien

April 25th, 2012
1:06 pm

It would be interesting to hear someone come up with a plan that actually required some sacrifice from themselves.

Every solution wants to cut somewhere other than home.

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:06 pm

Entitlements have increased under Obama? Compared to what?

What else is he giving away that Bush didn’t give away?

Of course, when you have a people losing jobs the unemployment spending increase. Is that what you mean?

Steve

April 25th, 2012
1:08 pm

You mean all the corporate welfare we give away and have for decades?

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
1:08 pm

“or are you just mad at food stamps?”

DAMN YOU FOODSTAMPS!!!

if people just went HUNGRY, then they’d DEFINITELY get a job!!!

270 more days

April 25th, 2012
1:08 pm

UK, do you deny that entitlements have grown to the highest level ever under the O’Bama tenure?

Rockerbabe

April 25th, 2012
1:08 pm

The demand cycle sort of goes like this: demand is a consumer’s desire or need for various goods and services and the ability to get the desired goods and services has everything to do with available income [from all sources: salaried, pensions, dividends, lottery winnings, ets].

When demand goes down, because a job or other income is lost, the consumer goes into a period of austerity and their demand decreases. When demand decreases, the business economy shrinks, more employees are laid off and their economy/demand then decreases or they employ a strategy of austerity.

When government employs an austerity plan of its own, the most vulnerable in our society are the ones most hurt. Their own austerity plans, become plans of desperation as they are unable to meet the most basic of needs, let alone, desires or wants. This leads to more unemployment and more personal austerity.

To jump-start a society’s economy, whereby demand in increased by consumers, the government has to spend money to support the economy, but doing the long term, big project, such as roads, bridges, schools, public health, ect. When government cuts back – ie their austerity plan, then the society as a whole is harmed and we are seeing that in Britian. Austerity in a time of economic recession is just a plan to hurt more people and make the economy less robust.

The time for austerity or government cut-backs, should be when the economy is booming and the private sector is robust enough to absorb any government employment cutbacks. But not, most GOP want to spend and spend and spend and when they can’t do that, they cut taxes for the rich and start wars. President Obama is right, the government has to spend, because the private sector is not doing so on the level needed to restart our own economy and put folks back to work.
If the private sector won’t do it, then who will? Most folks know the answer to that.

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:09 pm

Jay presents an economic situation with numbers to back it up and how do the Cons respond?

With opinions, conjecture, stuff squeezed out their bumpuses.

Cons, go watch some Fox News a brush up on the next talking points, you are way in over your head here.

Steve

April 25th, 2012
1:09 pm

270 more days…do you deny that when the economy tanks (Bush recession) and more people fall into poverty that more people would need assistance? (all the while the stock market climbs and CEO salaries skyrocket…)

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
1:10 pm

Just as we’ve done for the last 30 years. However it only seemed to become an issue once the Republicans lost most of the House, the Senate and the Whitehouse.

Butch–Really?? Though I often disagree with your opinions, I’ve always respected your logic in forming those differing opinions. If you can’t recognize that our debt situation is unmatched in modern times, then you must have some huge blinders on.

Mr Right

April 25th, 2012
1:10 pm

Still no answer on how much entitlements increased under Obama without even counting Obamacare!

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

April 25th, 2012
1:11 pm

And obviously some here understand what analogies are all about, and some don’t……..

And obviously someone here doesn’t understand that he condescendingly used an incorrect analogy and then later tried to condescendingly walk it back by using the word “obviously.”

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:11 pm

Rockerbabe, that is well said.

Mr Right

April 25th, 2012
1:12 pm

Yall have a good day, got to go to work!

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
1:12 pm

Jay presents an economic situation with numbers to back it up and how do the Cons respond?

Finn–Are you really that stupid?? Jay put some numbers up, yet directly admitted that there is no valid way to ‘test” various economic theories. Did you miss that paragraph??

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:13 pm

Mr Right asks a question and expects someone else to do the research for him.

Must be a Con.

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
1:13 pm

“UK, do you deny that entitlements have grown to the highest level ever under the O’Bama tenure?”

I deny that food stamps = government retirement at 60 with full salary

I deny that social security payments = a huge black market economy where a minority of people pay taxes

I deny that medicare/medicaid = false economic reporting (which is how Greece got into the EU – and which was one of the problems with their subsequent inability to address their own financial problems with monetary policies)

there.

that answer your question???

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
1:14 pm

And obviously someone here doesn’t understand that he condescendingly used an incorrect analogy and then later tried to condescendingly walk it back by using the word “obviously.”

If you have a better analogy, then put it up. Because that’s all we have to work with here. If you reread my posts, I identified my statement as a opinion and my analogy as an analogy.

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:15 pm

Well, Bruno, give us some valid links to studies that back up what you are pulling out the caboose…

JamVet

April 25th, 2012
1:18 pm

It’s really quite simple: Conservatives can’t govern.

The reason is that these Republicans are NOT conservatives.

They are anything but.

They have in fact killed, murdered, slayed and destroyed American conservatism.

They are economic liberals of the highest degree.

They are by and large, never-served chickenhawks, who don’t have one one hundredth the moral courage or common sense that Dwight D. Eisenhower had.

They are quasi-fascistic McCarthyites and 1950s reactionaries.

But conservative???!

HUGE LOL!!!

Gordon

April 25th, 2012
1:18 pm

Jay@12:06,

“Or do you nurse him back to strength and give him time to heal those wounds before you inject him with the chemo and radiation?”

Except that never really happens does it? I can’t imagine Republicans not saying “Times are good, so let’s let the taxpayers keep more of what they earn”, or Democrats saying “Times are good, so let’s make those entitlement cuts that will keep us from bankrupting ourselves and destorying our chidren’s future”.

In America, it’s NEVER time to do the hard work of getting spending in line with reality. We should be cutting the deficit in good times and in bad, and stop pretending there is a way out of this that won’t be painful. There isn’t.

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:19 pm

I just re-read Jay’s piece above and didn’t see him plunk down any numbers pulled directly from off the top of his head.

Am I missing something?

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
1:19 pm

That’s where you’re wrong IMO. This was not a business cycle recession agreed????? It was the result of a financial and housing market crash. So how could the business cycle correct it?

DF–All business cycles are predicated on supply and demand. In the case of the housing market, I’m sure you recognize that we have a vast oversupply right now, as in millions of vacant residential and commercial properties. As for the financial crash, though it was extreme, it can still be characterized as a “cycle” of sorts.

It’s value is related to our ability to pay our debts but that is much different than the “print more money” notion of a currency that is backed in some government owned assets.

Then where did the stimulus money come from?? Certainly not from any surplus.

270 more days

April 25th, 2012
1:20 pm

Common sense tells us that you can’t or shouldn’t spend more than you have, but then again, I never said the Democrats had much common sense.
How about one of you left wingers tell us what is wrong with “no spending without equal cuts.”
That is not austerity, that is common sense.

JOE COOL~DoWnToWn THUG

April 25th, 2012
1:20 pm

Jay, your graph is part of the Obama propaganda machine (snark)

rightwing troll

April 25th, 2012
1:21 pm

” and everyone on the right tripped all over themselves to criticize his use of language.”

But none would criticize the intent or the message…

Did you come up with any facts to support any of your prognostications yet?

willie lynch

April 25th, 2012
1:22 pm

Mention of the recovery of the U.S. economy seems to always be followed by the caveat “albeit too slowly.” Who can determine what the pace of recovery for a collapse of the magnitude we experienced should be? Of course there are speculators, but in reality the recovery from the Great Depression was not saddled with the burden of a competing and intertwined world economy and it took a while.

We are on the right course, and we didn’t even have a great war effort to help bail us out. So the pace is what it is and it’s obviously better than the alternative.

Jm

April 25th, 2012
1:22 pm

A
Recessions are a natural fact of life, get over it. Growth doesn’t happen in perpetuity

B
America’s GDP is a deficit fueled illusion

rightwing troll

April 25th, 2012
1:22 pm

“How about one of you left wingers tell us what is wrong with “no spending without equal cuts.”

As soon as one of you right wingnuts explain “deficits don’t matter”…

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:22 pm

“no spending without equal cuts.

I got no problem with that as long as I get to choose where the cuts will occur, ok? Which part of defense do we start with? Hmmm……….

Mick

April 25th, 2012
1:23 pm

bruno

You are always issuing challenges to the “libs” here, so, here’s one for you; what is it exactly that mitt romney can do better? Can he extinguish the real estate debacle that still haunts? Can he bring back manufacturing and more jobs? Does he need to show that he is a tough guy and get us involved in another senseless war? What will mitt do? Please let me know because if you just lsiten to him, everything is obama’s fault…

rightwing troll

April 25th, 2012
1:23 pm

AND explain how Mittens is going to cut taxes, cut spending, and increase the pentagons budget…

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
1:24 pm

I just re-read Jay’s piece above and didn’t see him plunk down any numbers pulled directly from off the top of his head.

Finn–Not sure where your blind spot is coming from, but there is no reliable way to measure the effect of ANY economic policy due to the lack of a “control group” by which to make a comparison. Jay himself says so. As such, all of the numbers in the world are meaningless. Why are you having such a hard time grasping this simple concept??

In the end, there are a myriad of factors which affect an economy, government policy only being one of those. As such, there are no reliable economic models out there to accurately predict the future. Our recent crash should be proof enough of that reality for you. USinUK and Matti, however, will back me up in saying that I personally saw the crash coming and urged all of the old W2W bloggers to sell, sell, sell in early 2008. I then turned around and urged everyone to buy, buy, buy in March 2009. In other words, a few of us saw it coming.

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:25 pm

what is it exactly that mitt romney can do better?

He can do “white male” better and that is all that matters to some.

rightwing troll

April 25th, 2012
1:25 pm

” Can he bring back manufacturing and more jobs?”

Why that would be the antithesis of his life’s work.

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:26 pm

what is it exactly that mitt romney can do better?

Mitt would do better at putting right-leaning judges on the Supreme Court. I can offer that one up.

getalife

April 25th, 2012
1:26 pm

They should have listened to President Clinton like our President did:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8625156/Bill-Clinton-warns-against-UKs-austerity-measures.html

BTW, Hillary is at 65 % approval .

Hillary 16!

Oscar

April 25th, 2012
1:27 pm

Well, let’s see. If we try austerity and cutting taxes on the rich we will have a resession. On the other hand, if we continue spending at an high rate we will have a resession.
Looks to me like we should try a middle ground approach. That would be the best approach.

Let’s have an election next November and elect canditates who favor the middle ground approach.

bob

April 25th, 2012
1:28 pm

It is not Cameron’s fault, he just did not know how bad the situtaion was when he took over and his actions actully saved his country form the biggest recession ever !

bob

April 25th, 2012
1:29 pm

finn, “mute” point

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:29 pm

Could someone please turn out the light on the Newt campaign now? Like a dying bear that Ted Nugent only nicked – it won’t go down gracefully.

Oscar

April 25th, 2012
1:29 pm

Mitt would do better at putting right-leaning judges on the Supreme Court. I can offer that one up.

__________

Mitt would led the mad rush back to the good old 1890s.

Adam

April 25th, 2012
1:29 pm

Bruno: Personally, I’d rather trade a bit of short term pain in order to alleviate the longer term suffering.

Personally, I’d rather not have short term suffering just because someone like you decided people need to suffer more than they already were going to, just to make a point. And, as it happens, the UK did exactly what you proposed and there is no long term benefit in sight.

The only problem with your health care analogy, Jay, is that our Congress doesn’t appear to have the political will to render ANY beneficial treatment at all. Just a bunch of band-aids and pain killers so far from my perspective.

Don’t like the stimulus? Pretend it never happened. Don’t like the American Jobs Act? Pretend it never existed. Don’t like the House Democrat Budget proposal? Don’t even become aware of it, just keep saying the nonsense about Democrats not proposing a budget.

All of those things things either did or would do wonders for the economy. You may disagree with that statement, but do you disagree that those things were proposed and that Republicans blocked all but the stimulus? I understand you may THINK the stimulus was a band aid, but if that is your position, you would be supporting a much larger stimulus, correct?

They BOTH suck

April 25th, 2012
1:29 pm

Did the cracks start as early as 06 and really started hitting in 07?

It was in the toilet by 08

270 more days

April 25th, 2012
1:29 pm

Brosephus™ – Let that ‘tussin get on down to the bone…

April 25th, 2012
12:48 pm

Well Bruno, compared to their GDP, the chinese had a stimulus that was 3 times as large as ours and they now have 8% growth.

Sounds like the Chinese did enough stimulating to produce a happy ending. The US…. not so much.

It is not so much the amount, but the use of it. The Chinese used almost all of their stimulus for infrastructure, not so much here with O’Bama’s giveaway

Jm

April 25th, 2012
1:30 pm

Uk deficit is about 6% of GDP

Us deficit is almost twice that

Us future is bad

F. Sinkwich

April 25th, 2012
1:30 pm

You’re gonna have to step it up with the charts, Jay:

“The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Wednesday shows Mitt Romney earning 49% of the vote, while President Obama attracts support from 44%. “

Adam

April 25th, 2012
1:31 pm

Swami Dave: Quite frankly, declaring the conclusion determined NOW is much like a football team declaring a win after scoring a 1st half touchdown of a close game.

So I can expect to hear nothing from your side that Obama’s policies, over the same exact time period, have failed – right? Since we haven’t had enough time for evaluation, as you yourself admitted?

stands for decibels

April 25th, 2012
1:31 pm

Mitt will ensure that more OB-GYNs are able to practice their love with women all across this country.

Jm

April 25th, 2012
1:32 pm

“his prediction has turned out to be wrong”

Premature judgement by jay

Quite pathetic

When the US has a deficit of 6% of GDP then we can make a judgement

270 more days

April 25th, 2012
1:33 pm

rightwing troll

April 25th, 2012
1:22 pm

“How about one of you left wingers tell us what is wrong with “no spending without equal cuts.”

As soon as one of you right wingnuts explain “deficits don’t matter”…

Dear RT,
I never said deficits don’t matter, now will you tell me what is wrong with “no spending without equal cuts.”?
Thanks in advance

Adam

April 25th, 2012
1:33 pm

Mr Right: How are Obama’s policies like Greece’s???

Ever hear of entitlements? Spend money like payday will never come!

Nope. That doesn’t even merit a nice try. The scale and scope of Greece’s entitlements never were the same as ours, and Obama did nothing, ZERO, to change them from the way they have been since the last tweak of Medicare Part D, as far as policies that are currently in effect go.

stands for decibels

April 25th, 2012
1:34 pm

Mitt will spearhead a Corporate/Fetus Personhood Constitutional Amendment. He’ll be efficient that way.

They BOTH suck

April 25th, 2012
1:35 pm

The Office for National Statistics said on Tuesday that the government’s preferred debt measure, public sector net borrowing excluding financial sector interventions, fell to 8.3 percent of GDP in 2011/12 from 9.3 percent in 2010/11 – in line with forecasts from the independent Office for Budget Responsibility.

http://news.yahoo.com/government-public-borrowing-hits-2011-12-target-083310940–business.html

Must have went down since this article came out……………. yesterday

Adam

April 25th, 2012
1:35 pm

Bruno: However, we’ve gotten ourselves so far in debt now that the only realistic solution is massive inflation. Is this an acceptable solution to you??

And yet, no such inflation has occurred in the US. Want to take a guess as to where it HAS happened? That’s right – the UK, where the austerity measures have been implemented.

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
1:35 pm

o jump-start a society’s economy, whereby demand in increased by consumers, the government has to spend money to support the economy, but doing the long term, big project, such as roads, bridges, schools, public health, ect. When government cuts back – ie their austerity plan, then the society as a whole is harmed and we are seeing that in Britian. Austerity in a time of economic recession is just a plan to hurt more people and make the economy less robust.

Rockerbabe–Though Finn was impressed with your words, all you did is provide a Wiki style definition of Keynesian economics. And while you may find a host of economists who still support that model, there are likely an equal number who reject it.

Well, Bruno, give us some valid links to studies that back up what you are pulling out the caboose…

I will as soon as you or Jay can do the same. Last post of the day to you. Banging my head against the wall repeatedly is more emotionally satisfying.

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:36 pm

Mitt will sell off the under-performing states. You heard it here first.

Adam

April 25th, 2012
1:36 pm

Bruno: However, some of us, like Newt and myself, are “Big Idea” people

Wow. Huge ego alert.

Look before I leap...

April 25th, 2012
1:39 pm

“It is not so much the amount, but the use of it. The Chinese used almost all of their stimulus for infrastructure, not so much here with O’Bama’s giveaway”

I think we can safely blame much of that on the how the states chose to spend the largess from Uncle Sam

stands for decibels

April 25th, 2012
1:39 pm

Does he need to show that he is a tough guy and get us involved in another senseless war?

Write this down: “K-O-L-O-B, Kolob, bitches!”

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:40 pm

You do realize that half the time Bruno is correct 100% of the time.

Adam

April 25th, 2012
1:40 pm

Mick: Please let me know because if you just lsiten to him, everything is obama’s fault…

I am not sure how I missed that…. Yes, Mitt and conservatives complain that Obama blames Bush, but then they blame Obama for everything that happened since BEFORE the man even took office.

Now THAT is hypocritical.

They BOTH suck

April 25th, 2012
1:40 pm

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/18/g20-usa-geithner-deficit-idUSW1E8EK00B20120418

US deficit to GDP

For a big balln finance man………. someone’s numbers seem to be on the dubious side………… the vast majority of the time

wonder why, but no big deal

glad I could assist

John Birch

April 25th, 2012
1:41 pm

Who cares about the Brits. If Jay’s logic is so sound why don’t we adopt the Chinese model and get 8% GNP growth?

mm

April 25th, 2012
1:41 pm

“without even counting Obamacare!”

Oh, so now Obamacare is an entitlement? Coz you know, it’s forcing everyone to buy insurance. Since when is paying for something an entitlement. The same for Social Security and Medicare. We pay for them.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

April 25th, 2012
1:42 pm

Ooohhh, our daily Ragamuffing tracking poll results.

Cool beans!

Mick

April 25th, 2012
1:42 pm

adam

It’s all smoke and mirrors, at the very least obama is a pragmatist, someone I can trust with his finger on the nuclear button…

Adam

April 25th, 2012
1:42 pm

Finn: Bruno hasn’t been right much, he’s only persistent. I found one thing that he said to be correct and I think that because most of us agreed with him he stopped talking about it.

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
1:43 pm

You are always issuing challenges to the “libs” here, so, here’s one for you; what is it exactly that mitt romney can do better? Can he extinguish the real estate debacle that still haunts? Can he bring back manufacturing and more jobs? Does he need to show that he is a tough guy and get us involved in another senseless war? What will mitt do? Please let me know because if you just lsiten to him, everything is obama’s fault…

Mick–Have you seen me singing Romney’s praises here?? Like you and everyone else here, I’m forced to choose the lesser of the two evils this go round. I’m going with Romney because I believe his business experience will be an asset, whereas Obama’s Villain/Victim welfare mentality is a definite minus.

Adam

April 25th, 2012
1:44 pm

If Jay’s logic is so sound why don’t we adopt the Chinese model and get 8% GNP growth?

We have had this proposed by Democrats in Congress. It was shot down by Republicans.

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNEXT!

They BOTH suck

April 25th, 2012
1:44 pm

BADA BING

April 25th, 2012
1:45 pm

Comparing their plan to ours is like comparing our dental plans.

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:45 pm

Maybe Bruno and Newt should hole up somewhere and dream up another Moon colony. We need more of these BIG ideas.

Adam

April 25th, 2012
1:46 pm

Bruno: Obama’s Villain/Victim welfare mentality

Corporations should be subsidized, taxes on the rich and corporations should go down, everything is Obama’s fault, Obama being painted as a villain….

Those are Romney positions. Your minus for Obama is the same as a minus for Romney.

Adam

April 25th, 2012
1:46 pm

They BOTH suck: Gee, I wonder what was happening in the late 90s there….

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:47 pm

Oh, now I know where Newt got that $2.50 a gallon gas number. Those big idea guys know how to pull numbers out of all kinds of places.

Mick

April 25th, 2012
1:48 pm

bruno

Nice punt! Mitt comes off as someone who is entitled to be president because what? He’s a successful businessman? No, he really hasn’t even come close to closing the deal…

Oscar

April 25th, 2012
1:48 pm

Mick

April 25th, 2012
1:42 pm

_________

I agree. Between the two, Obama is the most level headed and the one most likely to make the most reasonable decision.

Adam

April 25th, 2012
1:49 pm

“Don’t tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I’ll tell you what you value.” – who said it?

Don't Forget

April 25th, 2012
1:50 pm

Rockerbabe – great post above, the long one.

Bruno -
DF–All business cycles are predicated on supply and demand. In the case of the housing market, I’m sure you recognize that we have a vast oversupply right now, as in millions of vacant residential and commercial properties. As for the financial crash, though it was extreme, it can still be characterized as a “cycle” of sorts.

Oh c’mon Bruno. You know that’s total BS. Comparing the housing bubble to a normal supply/demand cycle is like comparing a rain shower to a hurricane. The market should tell you that by the way that housing prices have plummeted. And the financial crash? You realize the last one was what kicked off the Great Depression right? Normal business cycle, pffft. Sheer nonsense.

Butch Cassidy

April 25th, 2012
1:50 pm

I still don’t understand the Romney position of ” I have business experience” when clearly the Government DOES NOT operate on business principles. I liken that to a MARTA bus driver applying for a pilots position at Delta. ” Hey, I have transportation experience”. :)

They BOTH suck

April 25th, 2012
1:51 pm

Adam

I just put up those links to see what one of the right leaning bloggers who posted pure BS…………. was it on purpose? I have no idea

I was just glad I could could him on the right path. I believe he is in the finance / investment industry if I am not mistaken..

Wouldn’t want him given any bad advice to a prospective or current client……..

John Birch

April 25th, 2012
1:52 pm

Adam – You mean the Dems introduced legislation that would have taken us from free markets to a planned economy with five year plans and all? I must have missed that, can you cite the legislation?

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:52 pm

Romney should be shaking that Etch a Sketch today, no?

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
1:53 pm

Personally, I’d rather not have short term suffering just because someone like you decided people need to suffer more than they already were going to, just to make a point. And, as it happens, the UK did exactly what you proposed and there is no long term benefit in sight.

Adam–Grow up, will you?? No one likes bad times, whether short term or long term. No one. Not to make a point or for any other reason. However, some of us are a little more mature and realize that sometimes short-term suffering is required for a longer-term good, such as a sustainable debt level. The reason you don’t see any long-term benefit in the UK model is that we’re still living in the short term.

All of those things things either did or would do wonders for the economy.

Like Finn, you somehow don’t grasp the idea that economic policies are impossible to verify scientifically due to the lack of a “control group”. If you can’t understand that simple concept, I’ll gladly put you on “Ignore” also. No point in arguing with idiots.

They BOTH suck

April 25th, 2012
1:56 pm

meant to say…..

“I just put up those links to see what one of the right leaning bloggers who posted pure BS…………would counter with”

As of this moment………… nothing

deegee

April 25th, 2012
2:00 pm

The theory behind the economic model is that you save during times of prosperity and spend during times of austerity. Our corrupt leadership have it azz backwards, just like my 86 year old mother that invests in the market when it’s up and sells when it’s down. It’s not rocket science.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

April 25th, 2012
2:01 pm

If you can’t understand that simple concept, I’ll gladly put you on “Ignore” also. No point in arguing with idiots.

Keep this post in mind Bruno the next time you start whinging about name-calling here.

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
2:02 pm

Wow. Huge ego alert.

Adam–You might want to sharpen your recognition of obvious humor.

Corporations should be subsidized, taxes on the rich and corporations should go down, everything is Obama’s fault, Obama being painted as a villain….

I don’t have a problem with Romney trying to cast Obama in a villain light. That’s what elections are all about. I don’t think that anyone ever won by proclaiming how great their opponent is. In Obama’s case, however, he has repeatedly demonized otherwise good, hard-working Americans for short-term political gain. In virtually every speech he insults 1/2 of Americans (Republicans). And at the same time he keeps pushing the Victim role onto everyone else. There’s absolutely nothing productive–or Patriotic–about that approach in the least. However, as you’ve demonstrated repeatedly on this blog, you’re all about Victimhood. One day I hope you wake up to realize what a losing strategy that is.

mike 'hussein' smith

April 25th, 2012
2:02 pm

Johnny Reb, you’re wrongo on two counts: the one Jay pointed out and your assertion that, somehow, the Obama admin has changed the way of figuring unemployment. For decades — at least as far back as the Reagan recession — the active unemployment rate did not include those people no longer actively seeking work.

UNCLE SAMANTHA

April 25th, 2012
2:03 pm

jay
why didnt you distinguish 2 very large differences with the UK and US economies………. the UK has to fund government run healthcare and it is dealing with the DIRECT regional affects of the EUROPEAN DEBT CRISIS………….

even the juggernaut GERMANY is having trouble

ZEW Says German Economic Growth to Be 0.5% in 2012
Jan. 17 (Bloomberg) — Wolgang Franz, president of the ZEW Center for European Economic Research and chairman of Chancellor Angela Merkel’s council of economic advisers, talks about German investor confidence. He speaks from Mannheim, Germany, with Maryam Nemazee on Bloomberg Television’s “The Pulse.” (Source: Bloomberg)

Rockerbabe

April 25th, 2012
2:03 pm

Mr. Right: entitlements have increased in the country because the economy is faltered for such a long period of time, starting way back in Duyba’s administration.

- Food stamps are up because citizens who once held jobs in the private sector, are now on long term unemployment and that small little check does little to hold body and soul together, when all of the savings are gone. I highly expect most will gladly give up food stamps, once they can find work and feed their kids and themselves off of their earned income.
- More 62+ year old citizens who cannot find work and who once worked full-time before Duyba’s and Wall street’s debaucle, are now on early retirement as the unemployment compensation checks have run out. I highly expect, a good many will return to to work place when the economy recovers.
- More citizens and their kids are on Medicaid as they have lost private medical insurance when they lost a full-time job or that full-time job became part-time. COBRA can and does allow employers to charge former employees or part-time employees up to 110% of the cost of the premiums and that is often times more than the unemployement compensation checks for the month? So Medicaide is the last resort to get affordable, not bankruptcy-inducing medical care for the family.
- If you do not believe me on these explanations, I highly suggest you contact the Atlanta Food Bank, your local church food pantry or the Salvation Army and ask them about the severity of the need for assistance.

President Obama is not the cause of the recession, it started long before he came into office – that is just a fact. In fact, Duyba and his economic advisers stated the recession was over before he left office, but it doesn’t feel like it, does it? Sort of like, when Dubya announced “mission accomplished”. President Obama has done his best to manage this crisis with nothing but obstruction from our fabulously paid and over rewarded Congress.

John Birch

April 25th, 2012
2:04 pm

deegee – Exactly! Keynes advocated deficit spending to get out of recessions not as a permanent way of life. Now that we have growth we should be paying down the debt not adding $1T+ to it every year.

Adam

April 25th, 2012
2:06 pm

Bruno: However, some of us are a little more mature and realize that sometimes short-term suffering is required for a longer-term good, such as a sustainable debt level.

And some of us who don’t have to continually insist how mature, intelligent, or “big idea” we are realize that is complete and utter nonsense. The UK may have followed a plan of “short term pain no, long term sustainability later” but are discovering, the hard way, that the particular economic model that they and you support is actually WRONG, and doesn’t work the way they and you think it does.

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
2:07 pm

Comparing the housing bubble to a normal supply/demand cycle is like comparing a rain shower to a hurricane.

DF–I agree with you that the “amplitude” of our current business cycle is in the extreme range compared to previous cycles. However, that doesn’t invalidate the cyclical nature of the beast. When housing prices fall far enough, then they will be affordable once again.

Keep this post in mind Bruno the next time you start whinging about name-calling here.

Kam–I don’t have a big problem with insulting an individual poster who is showing willful defiance. What I don’t care for is insulting/demonizing half of our population with no reasoning behind it.

Adam

April 25th, 2012
2:11 pm

Like Finn, you somehow don’t grasp the idea that economic policies are impossible to verify scientifically due to the lack of a “control group”.

I can make a prediction about how things would have affected the economy in the same way you can, and have, done in the past. We can agree to disagree for the most part, but I do think results in specific situations speak for themselves. Obama’s plan may not have “worked” in your view, but it wasn’t the disaster that the other plan – the austerity plan – caused in the UK. They did not take some of the approaches that would have (and did in our country) prevented a second recession.

Put me on ignore if you like. I don’t particularly care. You seem to think you have “big ideas” that are much too big for anyone here to understand anyway, so there’s no point in my reading your long diatribes that are, save one recent exception, 100% wrong, if you’re just going to post them and ignore someone who challenges you.

Adam

April 25th, 2012
2:12 pm

Bruno: Adam–You might want to sharpen your recognition of obvious humor.

Gaslighting does not become you sir.

UNCLE SAMANTHA

April 25th, 2012
2:13 pm

ADAM
you are clearly not taking into consideration the predicament that UK, FRANCE and GERMANY face with the PIIGS and the EUROPEAN DEBT CRISIS…………. they can’t just go around spending money from DEBT willy nilly like a DEMOCRAT……… they are facing MASSIVE bailouts of their SISTER nations in the EURO ZONE………..

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

April 25th, 2012
2:15 pm

UNCLE SAMANTHA

Decaf.

Just sayin’.

Adam

April 25th, 2012
2:15 pm

Bruno: I don’t have a problem with Romney trying to cast Obama in a villain light.

Clearly not.

In virtually every speech he insults 1/2 of Americans (Republicans).

If you call telling everyone what their policies are an insult. Please DO point out where the insults are.

And at the same time he keeps pushing the Victim role onto everyone else. There’s absolutely nothing productive–or Patriotic–about that approach in the least. However, as you’ve demonstrated repeatedly on this blog, you’re all about Victimhood.

You are free to point out whatever you think is victimhood on my part any time you like. But, since you have indicated victimhood is not patriotic, and not productive, what then is your opinion of Fox News personalities and regular programming?

Adam

April 25th, 2012
2:18 pm

they can’t just go around spending money from DEBT willy nilly like a DEMOCRAT

Why don’t you tell me where the DEMOCRATS have spent all the money. Please feel free to recognize the difference between a policy started under Obama, and policies before then.

Let me help:

http://tarheelred.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/time-poilcy-change.gif
http://www.cps-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/bush-vs-obama-spending.jpg

Jay

April 25th, 2012
2:20 pm

John Birch

April 25th, 2012
2:22 pm

Big problem is we don’t have a comprehensive economic plan like the Chinese because we have two parties vying for power and catering to special interests, whether the interests are the 1%, the poor, the unions, etc. The Chinese have had incredible growth because they do have a central plan, one that seems to be doing better for all Chinese. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204630904577056490023451980.html

They BOTH suck

April 25th, 2012
2:23 pm

Bruno and Jam

Either of you going to stop by the Yacht Club before going to see the show?

270 more days

April 25th, 2012
2:23 pm

Right Wing Trool
Cat got your tounge?

Adam

April 25th, 2012
2:25 pm

John: They didn’t propose a planned economy, but did propose a bigger stimulus. I thought we were discussing how the Chinese went 3 times as big as we did in their own stimulus by percentage.

deegee

April 25th, 2012
2:27 pm

John Birch, can you imagine any argument that doesn’t end in “pay down the debt”? While we are not in a recession, we aren’t growing fast enough to claim a full recovery. The rate of job growth is still not high enough to consider ourselves out of the woods. Housing, the linchpin of our economy is still depressed.

I agree that there are plenty of wasted tax dollars that could be saved. My approach is to force our corrupt elected officials to spend the majority of their time in their districts while doing the citizens’ work. They could go to Washington once a quarter and spend a week. Isn’t that what our founding fathers did? If global corporations can conduct business via teleconference then why can’t our corrupt elected officials do so? Our corrupt elected officials are too close to K Street in the first place. In the second place, they have too much idle time on their hands, case in point, Weinergate. Anthony Weiner demonstrated that our corrupt elected officials are adept in the use of electronic media. Let’s make them use it instead of paying them room and board so that they can hang out in DC and grab azz.

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
2:28 pm

You seem to think you have “big ideas” that are much too big for anyone here to understand anyway, so there’s no point in my reading your long diatribes that are, save one recent exception, 100% wrong

Adam–Believe as you wish. I normally expect my posts to be understood by at least 90% of the folks here, and am happy to re-explain to the other 10%, as long as they don’t turn it into an ass-showing contest.

Gaslighting does not become you sir.

In case you missed it, Adam, Jay has regularly mocked Newt for his “Big Ideas”. If you don’t understand that I am making a play on that theme, then I can’t help you.

Gotta run. I hope Doom shows up for the mop-up action.

Don't Forget

April 25th, 2012
2:28 pm

Sorry Bruno, but a finincail crisis is not a part of the business cycle. An economy propped up by fraudulent derivatives in not a part of the business cycle. The business cycle is a supply/demand cycle just as you said, it is not based on phony securities.

As for Britain’s short term pain, when you consider that the deficit went up and the economy is once again contracting I really fail to see what the long term benefit is.

Adam

April 25th, 2012
2:32 pm

Fair enough, Bruno. I will accept that you meant it as a joke.

My Party has ALL the answers. Your party is full of poopyheads! (formerly That Black Guy)

April 25th, 2012
2:39 pm

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

April 25th, 2012
12:36 pm
Cosby, do you not even remember the Great Recession of 2008 and how we got there…

Ssshhhhh. Remember, we cannot mention He Who Shouldn’t Be Named.
______________________________________________________________________________

This reminds me of the Dem/left claim that they don’t call the rich “evil”. “Show me one example of a Dem/lib calling them the “evil rich”, is usually what gets repeated. They are correct.

BUT

They make the claim that Repub/cons don’t want you the EVER mention Bush’s name. i.e. “He Who Shouldn’t Be Named”.

I say “Show me one example of a Repub/con saying that they “don’t want you the EVER mention Bush’s name”, or to similar effect.

Not your opinion, not an assumption, not “reading between the lines” conjecture.

I’ll wait.

They BOTH suck

April 25th, 2012
2:46 pm

TBG

Thulsa has never said ” do not mention Bush’s name”; however if he is on this blog and the name Bush gets mentioned………………. he goes a little overboard, to say the least

So essentially what is he saying…….

He is the 1st to post Reagan era numbers, but Bush is off limits to mention………….

I know he is not here to defend himself, however he came to mind real quick

They BOTH suck

April 25th, 2012
2:49 pm

TBG

As for me…… While I do not like the overall GOP platform……. I do not knock rich people for the money they have made or inherited…. I might knock political ideology, but that encompasses more than just the “evil rich”

But I do see your overall point………. the BS is played out here each day withe rhetoric, talking points, broad brushes / paint sprayers on all sides

Hope you are having a good week

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

April 25th, 2012
3:00 pm

I say “Show me one example of a Repub/con saying that they “don’t want you the EVER mention Bush’s name”, or to similar effect.

Really?

You don’t recall even one instance of a “Repub/con” reminding everyone here that Bush is no longer in office and therefore irrelevant to this financial melt-down?

Seriously?

Adam

April 25th, 2012
3:13 pm

“Show me one example of a Repub/con saying that they “don’t want you the EVER mention Bush’s name”

Well, they didn’t say exactly that. Some of them HAVE said in the past that “Bush is no longer President”, usually in response to any criticism of Bush’s policies. He also is abnormally absent from the Republican talking points and endorsements area, which is notably odd. Leading many to think he is being marginalized by his own party, in a “He Who Must Not Be Named” sort of way.

Hope that helps.

My Party has ALL the answers. Your party is full of poopyheads! (formerly That Black Guy)

April 25th, 2012
3:22 pm

They BOTH suck

April 25th, 2012
2:49 pm
___________________________________________________________________

Fair enough.

Week is dragging along. Looking forward to the weekend so I can get out on my bike. Going on a fun ride for Juvenile Diabetes on Sat.

Not sure how I’m going to work that out since I’m a con and only care about my self. :lol:

My Party has ALL the answers. Your party is full of poopyheads! (formerly That Black Guy)

April 25th, 2012
3:30 pm

So far, opinion, assumptions, and “reading between the lines” conjecture.

Using that logic, then the “con” are right when they say libs view the rich as “evil”.
I hear from “libs”:

Eat the rich.
They don’t do anything to help others.
They would sell their own mother to make a buck. (that would be pretty evil)
They would sleep with the devil to make a buck. (pretty evil as well)
They want the middle class to starve so they can have more money. (pretty evil)

You get my point. Just like ALL dems/libs DO NOT think the rich are “evil”, ALL repubs/cons do not feel Bush should NEVER be mentioned.

But, if you twist enough, you can make the point that they do.

Rockerbabe

April 25th, 2012
3:40 pm

Adam: I do not think that short or long-term suffering should include starving, going homeless and being sick without basic medical care. I do not think suffering should include taking money from public education and giving to private and religious schools is a good idea that will benefit society as a whole. I do not think it should include crapping on senior citizens and their meager incomes, let along as an excuse to gut the retirement system in this country.

The Americans doing the suffering are not the ones who caused this economic meltdown; that was the doing of the greedy Wall Street bankers, their lobbyist, real estate moguls, financiers and those in the 1% tax bracket and of course, they had a lot of help from Congress! If these folks can’t be made to suffer for their ruinous ways which drastically affected the entire nation, then those who are their victims in all of this crap, should not have to go without basic necessities.

Adam

April 25th, 2012
3:49 pm

Rockerbabe: Exactly. Well said.

Vast Right Wing Conspiracy

April 25th, 2012
4:57 pm

Britain is a useful comparison only to the extent it provides information concerning our ultimate destination under (Heaven forbid) continuing Democrat policies. The only reason we are not there now is our Treasury can, for the time being, print as much money (electronically) as it desires.

Tom Middleton

April 25th, 2012
5:27 pm

I used to think British conservatives were smarter than our conservatives, but now I know there’s just something in conservative DNA everywhere that keeps them from seeing anything but their own bank accounts, Mitt Romney chief among them.

I mean, how can he claim he has the economic solution for America, when as governor of Massachusetts, he took the state’s economy from 37th in job growth to 47th and $1 billion in debt by the time he left office?

And what about what he did at Bain Capital? Not only did he outsource jobs America much needed, but look at all the jobs he lost from his “creative destruction” raiding technique that took companies to bankruptcy for major profit – his!

And we want to put this man in charge of an economy already on the rebound, so we can go backwards to more of the Bush years? Talk about a double-dip recession, that would be a double-avalanche – that would take us generations to crawl out from under!

Moderate Line

April 25th, 2012
6:02 pm

His prediction has turned out to be wrong, of course. Given that evidence, I find it hard to believe that the American people will now choose to abandon a policy that has worked in favor of a strategy that our British friends have done us the favor of proving a failure.
+++
The unemployment rate in the United States is at 8.2% and the UK is at 8.4.

Seriously, ours is working?

[...] Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) [...]

saywhat?

April 25th, 2012
7:40 pm

“The unemployment rate in the United States is at 8.2% and the UK is at 8.4.

Seriously, ours is working?”
______________________________________

The paths are crossing, heading in different direction. Our unemployment is on the way down, theirs is on the way up. To put it another way, we are about equal distances from the cliff edge. We are slowly walking away from it, they are running toward it. You want to switch places?

blahblahblah

April 26th, 2012
7:43 am

Meanwhile, Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal have employed the Dems plan for about the last 20 years. How’s that working out?

blahblahblah

April 26th, 2012
7:47 am

This was stolen from the Wall Street Journal

Growth or austerity? That’s the choice facing Europe these days—or so the Keynesian consensus keeps saying. According to this view, which has dominated world economic councils since the 2008 crisis began, “growth” is mainly a function of government spending.

Spend more and you’re for growth, even if a country raises taxes to pay for the spending. But dare to cut spending as the Germans suggest, and you’re for austerity and thus opposed to growth.

This is a nonsense debate that misconstrues the real sources of economic prosperity and helps explain Europe’s current mess. The real debate ought to be over which policies best produce growth.

In the 1980s, the world learned (or so we thought) that the way out of the malaise of the 1970s were reforms that encourage private investment and risk-taking, labor mobility and flexibility, an end to price controls, tax rates that encouraged capital formation, and what the World Bank now broadly calls “the ease of doing business.” Amid this crisis, Europe has tried everything except these policies.

[...] here in the United States under President Obama. Cameron and his chancellor … Read more on Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) Posted in What Is Economics | Tags: Economics, Latest, [...]

Adam

May 2nd, 2012
2:50 pm

The paths are crossing, heading in different direction. Our unemployment is on the way down, theirs is on the way up.

EXACTLY