British deploy GOP’s economic plan, return to recession

When he became prime minister of Great Britain two years ago, Conservative Party leader David Cameron began to implement an economic strategy much different than that pursued here in the United States under President Obama.

Cameron and his chancellor of the exchequer, George Osborne, decided that Plan A was to cut cut cut. They would cut their way to economic growth by slashing government spending by more than 20 percent across the board. Other aspects of their plan may sound familiar as well. Just last month, they announced that they would be cutting the top tax rate for Britain’s richest households while raising taxes on those who collect pensions, a proposal dubbed “the granny tax” because of its impact on the elderly.

A reader of the London Telegraph posts his reaction to news that Britain's economy has fallen back into a recession.

A reader of the London Telegraph posts his reaction to news that Britain's economy has fallen back into a recession.

When “Plan A” was first announced, American conservatives saw it as a model for their own economic theories. As Fox News noted back in 2010:

“The Obama administration is showing no appetite whatsoever to do what the British are doing,” said Nile Gardiner, director of the Margaret Thatcher Center for Freedom at the conservative Heritage Foundation. But, he said, the U.S. has to “at the very least do what the British are doing” to avoid a fiscal calamity.

Gardiner said congressional Republicans will be paying close attention as they craft their agenda should they end up with a majority in either chamber come Nov. 3. “I do think what Cameron is doing is going to be seen as inspirational by many conservatives on Capitol Hill,” Gardiner said.”

Yesterday, however, the Cameron government was forced to announce that the British economy has fallen back into a recession after reporting the second consecutive quarter of negative growth, the first double-dip recession in Britain since the mid-’70s.

Unemployment in Britain is rising. And while America’s gross domestic product has rebounded and by 2011 had topped pre-recession levels, GDP in Britain today remains 4 percent below what it was in 2008.

Most important, perhaps, the primary goal of Cameron’s austerity program was to reduce Britain’s deficit up front, early in the economic recovery, under the theory that by doing so they would drive growth. Instead, the deficit has continued to grow larger despite the spending cuts because it is hard to get more revenue out of an economy that is shrinking.

Economics is a difficult field in part because it is impossible to run controlled experiments to test the efficacy of various theories. However, in Britain and the United States we have two economies and two governments that took two very different courses during the same time frame.

And as we now know, the outcomes have been very different as well.

One economy is recovering, if slowly, with people returning to work and the budget deficit falling, if again too slowly. The other economy has sunk back into recession, with more people out of work and the deficit increasing as a result.

Geoff Colvin, writing in Forbes back in November 2010, eagerly embraced the experiment, arguing that it would confirm the wisdom of Britain’s approach. As he boldly put it:

“When we have a winner, the losing side will rationalize the results, saying they don’t prove much, because the two situations were different going in, and that with a little bit of tweaking, their strategy would have prevailed. We should resolve to cut through the inevitable spin and declare a winner. Whatever the results, I’ll embrace them. But I think I know how this will turn out, and it won’t be good news for America.”

His prediction has turned out to be wrong, of course. Given that evidence, I find it hard to believe that the American people will now choose to abandon a policy that has worked in favor of a strategy that our British friends have done us the favor of proving a failure.

jobloss

– Jay Bookman

308 comments Add your comment

Don't Forget

April 25th, 2012
12:15 pm

Wow, despite all those cuts the Brits deficit went up. Imagine that.

This election is important. If the tea party gets it’s way, we’ll go into another recession or worse. Growth will help the deficit more than cuts. But instead of raising rates like Greenspan did when the growth finally gets going good, we should then cut spending.

don't believe the hype

April 25th, 2012
12:16 pm

getalife, how can you believe the economy is getting better. as I see it, if the economy was going so darn well, my fortune 500 company would be gaining revenue not losing it, our vacation benefits were cut last year, our raise was cut last year, we just closed 25 service centers to pay for more taxes that are coming in 2013, if the economy was doing so well, businesses would not be cutting employer benefits. shoot, even the new york times is cutting benefits….and their employees are fit to be tied…..

our debt is out of control, we have too much gov’t control of our economy, what we are experiencing under Obama is not a recovery, it’s a coma………

ty webb

April 25th, 2012
12:19 pm

Kamchak,
touche`

getalife

April 25th, 2012
12:20 pm

don’t.

The numbers show it is getting better but we had a gop total collapse.

Do you want to go back to that?

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:20 pm

“England still has a queen for goodness sake. Apples and Oranges. ”

what does that have to do with the price of peas in Piccadilly???

JamVet

April 25th, 2012
12:20 pm

don’t believe the hype,

Please square that with this irrefutable fact.

The nation’s workers may be struggling, but American companies just had their best quarter ever.
The New York Times

American businesses earned profits at an annual rate of $1.659 trillion in the third quarter, according to a Commerce Department report released Tuesday. That is the highest figure recorded since the government began keeping track over 60 years ago, at least in nominal or noninflation-adjusted terms.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/24/business/economy/24econ.html

Maybe the fat cats who run your company aren’t shooting you straight?

Nah, never mind, that could never happen…

getalife

April 25th, 2012
12:23 pm

The con knee jerk reaction to their failed ideology will make this thread the most hilarious ever :)

Doggone/GA

April 25th, 2012
12:24 pm

“what does that have to do with the price of peas in Piccadilly???”

I’m trying to figure that one out too!

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

April 25th, 2012
12:25 pm

(ir)Rational — if you’re lurking about:

Lio Messi was just awesome at the Camp Nou yesterday. He hit the crossbar on that PK most awesomely.

USMC

April 25th, 2012
12:26 pm

“one jerkwad calling someone names vs. the federal government and numerous states attacking women’s rights …”–UsinUK

Not exactly UsinUK’s tone when RUSH LIMBAUGH said the same vulgar thing to Sandra Fluck… :-)

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:26 pm

Kam … congrats to you for your boys in blue!!!

even reporters here were saying DAYUM!!!

jconservative

April 25th, 2012
12:27 pm

“I was told by the conservative posters here that we have lost jobs under Obama? Your data says otherwise.”

We have lost jobs under the last 8 presidents. Here are the numbers arranged by decade in the interest of brevity. To date who is in the White House is irrevelant.

Net Job Creation by Decade

1960’s……….31%
1970’s……….27%
1980’s……….20%
1990’s……….20%
2000’s…………0%
US Bureau of Labor Statistics

Aquagirl

April 25th, 2012
12:27 pm

our vacation benefits were cut last year, our raise was cut last year

Chances are your CEO’s pay is up. I’m sure he/she will trickle down on you soon.

larry

April 25th, 2012
12:27 pm

my fortune 500 company would be gaining revenue not losing it, our vacation benefits were cut last year, our raise was cut last year, we just closed 25 service centers to pay for more taxes that are coming in 2013

Funny, i was with a company who did that same exact thing two years ago, blamed it on taxes just to find out the CEO got a nice 500,000+ dollar raise.

SwamiDave

April 25th, 2012
12:27 pm

Quite frankly, declaring the conclusion determined NOW is much like a football team declaring a win after scoring a 1st half touchdown of a close game.

The facts we know are:

- Both countries (as well as many others) went into a recession.
- One country targeted a path toward more austerity. Another followed a path of increased deficit spending in the form of stimulus.
- One country is already reporting re-entry to recession (the “double-dip”). The other hasn’t yet (and *may* not).

The near & longer term outcomes are by no means final yet. History typically favors individuals and enterprises that spend within their means and do not predicate upon stealing from one group to provide (and take political credit) for unearned benefits and transfer payments to another. It is usually harsh to those who attempt to “spend themselves to prosperity” and rationalize a political philosophy of redistributionist theft.

-SD

Of course, *IF* the U.S. economy experiences a “double-dip”, I sure it will be Bush’s fault…..or the oil companies…..or the European Union……or Arab Spring……or the rich……or insurance companies….or…..

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
12:27 pm

Most important, perhaps, the primary goal of Cameron’s austerity program was to reduce Britain’s deficit up front, early in the economic recovery, under the theory that by doing so they would drive growth. Instead, the deficit has continued to grow larger despite the spending cuts because it is hard to get more revenue out of an economy that is shrinking.

All I can say to that statement is that you have the short run, and you have the long run. Personally, I’d rather trade a bit of short term pain in order to alleviate the longer term suffering.

As it happens, the patient also has cancer. Do you treat the life-threatening wounds AND immediately begin chemotherapy and radiation, knowing that in his weakened condition those treatments might kill him?

The only problem with your health care analogy, Jay, is that our Congress doesn’t appear to have the political will to render ANY beneficial treatment at all. Just a bunch of band-aids and pain killers so far from my perspective.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

April 25th, 2012
12:28 pm

USinUK

Thanks, but I will admit I lost faith when JT was red-carded and two minutes later Barça scored what I believed to be the deciding goal.

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:29 pm

usmc – “Not exactly UsinUK’s tone when RUSH LIMBAUGH said the same vulgar thing to Sandra Fluck”

yeah. rush limbaugh. all by his lonesome. on the air across the nation. on multiple days. no one else from the right joined in. and everyone on the right tripped all over themselves to criticize his use of language.

and again – when you see dems at the state and federal level attacking women’s rights, THEN it’s the Democratic Party’s war on women …

until that time, it’s just 1 lone jerkwad .

Brosephus™

April 25th, 2012
12:30 pm

jcon

I guess he doesn’t understand what a “jobless” recovery really means. I really, really loathe that term too….

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
12:30 pm

It’s really quite simple: Conservatives can’t govern.

Cosby

April 25th, 2012
12:31 pm

You have to be kidding. I do not have tiime to dig inot this comprison but the US economy is anemic at best. US debt continues to eat up the GDP, Obama continues to spend – print more money than all 43 Presidents before combined have done including Bush. Jobs and the working force are no where near the levels they were prior to 2009. energy cost are stedily rising a lot to do with regulations. business is not jumping for joy and fear more and more regulation. Gas prices are at least double than 2009 and eating into spendable income for the working stiffs. Canada went this route about 20 years agao and are just now digging out of it. To compare the US to Britian is a little humorous but then anything to spend spedn and regulate regulate and the government knows best…horse squeeze

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
12:31 pm

The newest conservative myth is that the upheavals in the Middle East — called the Arab Spring but occurring too in non-Arab countries like Iran — are a result of the Iraq War. The “freedom” that George W. Bush brought to Iraq had a domino effect on other countries in the region, the argument goes. Neocon Robert Kagan told Salon recently that “[t]here were repeated free elections in Iraq and that undoubtedly had some effect on how neighboring people views their government.” Said Kagan: “I think Egyptians said. ‘If the Iraqis can have elections, why can’t we have elections?’

salon.com

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:32 pm

“our vacation benefits were cut last year, our raise was cut last year”

welp, you should pull yourself up by your bootstraps and stop whining!!! you think you’re ENTITLED to vacation benefits!!! where is THAT in the Constitution??? where are RAISES mentioned in the constitution!!!

eat your gruel and be happy

getalife

April 25th, 2012
12:32 pm

Told ya.

Most hilarious thread ever :)

Great job Jay.

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
12:32 pm

This election is important. If the tea party gets it’s way, we’ll go into another recession or worse. Growth will help the deficit more than cuts. But instead of raising rates like Greenspan did when the growth finally gets going good, we should then cut spending.

DF–I doubt if there is a person on Earth who would dispute the fact that economic growth is the “cure”. My question is exactly WHAT have Obama and the Dems done to spur economic growth?? And please don’t trot out the failed stimulus spending. As far as I’m concerned, we only got about 10 cents of growth for each 1 dollar spent. It’s not a sustainable way to “grow” the economy.

Steve

April 25th, 2012
12:34 pm

Cosby, do you not even remember the Great Recession of 2008 and how we got there and how things have improved since? Really??

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
12:35 pm

I see Cosby has been watching Fox News….sigh. Same old talking points.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

April 25th, 2012
12:36 pm

Cosby, do you not even remember the Great Recession of 2008 and how we got there…

Ssshhhhh. Remember, we cannot mention He Who Shouldn’t Be Named.

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
12:36 pm

As far as I’m concerned, we only got about 10 cents of growth for each 1 dollar spent

source? or did it come off the top of your head?

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
12:37 pm

Once again, here’s our current national “balance sheet”, scaled down to a household sized budget:

This year we’re spending $38,000 on a $29,000 income, thus putting another $9000 on the “credit card”. Our current “credit card balance” is $153,000.

Am I the only one who sees something drastically wrong with this scenario?? If the US were a stock, it would be de-listed from the stock market exchange.

Brosephus™

April 25th, 2012
12:39 pm

Just a bunch of band-aids and pain killers so far from my perspective.

Bruno

I wouldn’t even give them credit for that. I’d say they’re using the approach that Chris Rock said his dad uses…

That’s all we had when l was a kid: Robitussin. No matter what you got, Robitussin better handle it. Daddy, l got asthma. – Robitussin. l got cancer. – Robitussin. l broke my leg, Daddy poured Robitussin on it. “Yeah, boy, let that ‘tussin get in there. Yeah, boy, let that ‘tussin get on down to the bone. The ‘tussin ought to straighten out the bone. lt’s good.”

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:41 pm

“If the US were a stock, it would be de-listed from the stock market exchange.”

but it’s not.

the US is not a business.

it is not a household.

it is a government – and, as such, has different operational demands than either of the other two.

unless, of course, you’re worried about the people in the next county over attacking your county and ransacking your Starbucks

Steve

April 25th, 2012
12:41 pm

Conservatives seem to hate America. They disrespect the President at every turn, and they would prefer America to fail as long as their policies are sustained (allowing the wealthy to continue to gain more wealth and power). It’s sickening.

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:42 pm

Bro – :lol: love Chris Rock

Brosephus™

April 25th, 2012
12:42 pm

Quite frankly, declaring the conclusion determined NOW is much like a football team declaring a win after scoring a 1st half touchdown of a close game.

That’s not a very good analogy because of the Crimson Tide effect. When you have a defense as stout as Alabama, all one really needs in most cases is a single touchdown. There are exceptions to the rule, such as, when your placekicker has a case of blasterfootitis. That’s typically the exception as opposed to the norm though.

Mr Right

April 25th, 2012
12:43 pm

Obama’s policies are somewhat like Greece’s so lets see a chart on how that’s working out for them!

Don't Forget

April 25th, 2012
12:45 pm

Well Bruno, compared to their GDP, the chinese had a stimulus that was 3 times as large as ours and they now have 8% growth. The stimulus was based on figures that underestimated the downturn consideerably. It wasn’t done well and it wasn’t big enough/long enough for the degree of decline we have seen.

Butch Cassidy

April 25th, 2012
12:46 pm

JohnnyReb – “most every political junkie knows by now the jobs info is no good. It does not count the people who have given up looking for a job”

Damn, that must mean that under Bush, the unemployment rate was actually 8% to 9%. Why no bitching about the numbers then?

carlosgvv

April 25th, 2012
12:46 pm

The number one goal of the Republicans is to keep their corporate masters happy. With that in mind, it’s up to Big Business to decide whether the Republicans should stick to the British model or not. Whatever economic model generates the most profit and the lowest taxes will win with Business and, hence, the Republicans. If Romney wins the election and Republicans are in control of the House and Senate, then you may be sure that whatever economic model is chosen, Big Business will win and the American people will lose.

Brosephus™ - Let that 'tussin get on down to the bone...

April 25th, 2012
12:47 pm

USinner

That’s probably the cure our health care system is waiting on… Robitussin.

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
12:47 pm

source? or did it come off the top of your head?

Finn–I would hope that my word choice is an indication that my statement came in the form of an opinion. It’s very hard to make definitive statements about the efficacy of various economic policies as Jay points out above: “Economics is a difficult field in part because it is impossible to run controlled experiments to test the efficacy of various theories.” So, we are left with conjecture and opinion. From my point of view, the economy was going to recover on its own, with no outside input needed, simply due to long established business cycles. As was discussed in the last thread, the vast oversupply of houses in our country caused a huge sector or our economy–the housing market–to tank. Even the most liberal among you here today must certainly realize that there is no short-term fix for that. We just have to be patient.

My 10 cents on the dollar opinion is based on how little the job market has improved in spite of spending an extra trillion dollars or so. Not much bang for the buck there IMO. Do you have a different opinion??

mm

April 25th, 2012
12:47 pm

“our debt is out of control, we have too much gov’t control of our economy”

I’m so tired of seeing this garbage.

Aside from the $700 billion stimulus, of which 40% was tax cuts, the increased debt has come from Iraq, Afghanistan, Medicare Part D, the Bush tax cuts,a dn the recession (lost revenues).

You cons can spin this every which way, but these are facts.

Don't Forget

April 25th, 2012
12:48 pm

the US is not a business.

Exactly. Heard yesterday that the only president who graduated from business school was W. The only other businessman was Hoover. You can’t run a government like a business anymore than you can run a business like a government or a boat like a train etc.

[...] Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) [...]

Brosephus™ - Let that 'tussin get on down to the bone...

April 25th, 2012
12:48 pm

Well Bruno, compared to their GDP, the chinese had a stimulus that was 3 times as large as ours and they now have 8% growth.

Sounds like the Chinese did enough stimulating to produce a happy ending. The US…. not so much. :)

Watkins

April 25th, 2012
12:49 pm

Why does this have to be so hard? We clearly have to address our profligate spending habits, but even the dimmest economist should see that sucking money out of the economy during a downturn will produce a vacuum that will suffocate recovery. Continue restrained but sufficient fiscal policy (cuts here, spending there) nursing the recovery. The problem is an inept congress who, when recovery comes will be unable to make the hard cuts. For a great read on the topic, see “That Used to Be Us” by Thomas Friedman.
By the way, what’s Geoff of Forbes saying now?

Granny Godzilla - Union Thugette

April 25th, 2012
12:49 pm

And from the Mitt America pageant we get offered the Bush Economic plan – Updated.

and no mention of world peace.

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:49 pm

“Obama’s policies are somewhat like Greece’s so lets see a chart on how that’s working out for them!”

yay!!!!

I’ll play.

HOW???

How are Obama’s policies like Greece’s???

and, please … show your work.

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

April 25th, 2012
12:50 pm

Obama’s policies are somewhat like Greece’s…

And an election is like a football game

And a national budget is like a household budget.

And the USA is like a stock listed on the NYSE.

And my Fortune 500 company is indicative of everything in corporate America.

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:50 pm

Brocephus – just ruuuuuuuuuub in the ‘tussin and let it get to work on those high medical costs …

(or you could just drink it to forget that you just lost your house because you got sick)

mm

April 25th, 2012
12:51 pm

“From my point of view, the economy was going to recover on its own, with no outside input needed, simply due to long established business cycles”

Sorry, the US government has always increased spending to get out of recessions. That is, until Obama took office. The GOP new spending would get us out. But they also knew their dumb voters would buy into their BS about the deficit. So they chose to starve the economy and lay off state and federal workers to make the job numbers worse. You cons are not very bright.

Mr Right

April 25th, 2012
12:51 pm

How are Obama’s policies like Greece’s???

Ever hear of entitlements? Spend money like payday will never come!

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
12:52 pm

Well Bruno, compared to their GDP, the chinese had a stimulus that was 3 times as large as ours and they now have 8% growth. The stimulus was based on figures that underestimated the downturn consideerably. It wasn’t done well and it wasn’t big enough/long enough for the degree of decline we have seen.

DF–Sorry to trot out the old apples/oranges cliche, but I don’t see how our economy can be compared to the Chinese. We’re swimming in debt while they aren’t. We have a “mature” economy, in which further growth is hard to eke out, while they are in the middle of perhaps their greatest economic expansion. On a global scale, they have a huge advantage over us due to all of the cheap labor.

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:53 pm

Kam – 12:50 – you forgot one …

and the door is ajar …

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
12:54 pm

Even if I did have an opinion, I wouldn’t put down hard numbers without a reliable source.

That’s like yer boy Doocy with his “Unlike some people…” remark which got repeated as fact on several other news channels.

If my wife thinks we spend 110% of our income every month and I think we spend 50% of our income every month, what is the point of discussing it until we have numbers we can agree are correct and draw the correct conclusions?

getalife

April 25th, 2012
12:54 pm

“Obama: Romney Can’t Say ‘Everything I’ve Said For The Last 6 Months, I Didn’t Mean’” Aol.

Check and mate.

You are clinging to a failed ideology cons and are marginalized by the American voters.

It don’t get any better than that :)

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:54 pm

“Ever hear of entitlements? Spend money like payday will never come!”

you mean the same entitlements we’ve had for the last 70 years??? Obama has been setting those policies from before he was born???

dayum, he IS powerful!!!

Butch Cassidy

April 25th, 2012
12:54 pm

Misty Fyed – “We are simply passing the buck to another generation.”

Just as we’ve done for the last 30 years. However it only seemed to become an issue once the Republicans lost most of the House, the Senate and the Whitehouse.

stands for decibels

April 25th, 2012
12:55 pm

Sounds like the Chinese did enough stimulating to produce a happy ending. The US…. not so much.

which is whatcha get when a country is founded by bunch of Puritans. No happy endings.

Brosephus™ - Let that 'tussin get on down to the bone...

April 25th, 2012
12:55 pm

USinner

True… The ‘tussin can not only move, it can re-move!

Don't Forget

April 25th, 2012
12:55 pm

Bruno
From my point of view, the economy was going to recover on its own, with no outside input needed, simply due to long established business cycles.

That’s where you’re wrong IMO. This was not a business cycle recession agreed????? It was the result of a financial and housing market crash. So how could the business cycle correct it?

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
12:55 pm

“while they are in the middle of perhaps their greatest economic expansion”

totally agree with you that this is their greatest economic expansion since the Ming Dynasty – but, I do question their unaudited numbers …

mm

April 25th, 2012
12:56 pm

“On a global scale, they have a huge advantage over us due to all of the cheap labor”

And who’s using their cheap labor? American corporations. When confronted with a choice between a better US economy or profits, the corporations choose proft, every time.

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
12:56 pm

they are in the middle of perhaps their greatest economic expansion

Yeah, they got our jobs over there, too!

stands for decibels

April 25th, 2012
12:57 pm

By the way, about the loyal conservatives here whingeing about how Uppity Obama somehow done singlehandedly put us 4 trillion or so in the hole…

I have no idea where they get such ideas! Surely a responsible political party like the GOP would set their rank and file straight, yes?

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
12:58 pm

but it’s not. the US is not a business. it is not a household. it is a government – and, as such, has different operational demands than either of the other two.

USinUK (and others)–Obviously the government, which has the ability to simply print more money, cannot be directly compared to a business or household which has to deal with their debt problems within the income they have. However, we’ve gotten ourselves so far in debt now that the only realistic solution is massive inflation. Is this an acceptable solution to you??

Mr Right

April 25th, 2012
12:59 pm

Yes we entitlements have been here for years but how much have they increased under Obama? Is there a limit to what we can give away?

Don't Forget

April 25th, 2012
1:00 pm

Bruno, China has cheap labor that is also unskilled. Long term that’s a loser for them unless they change it and educate their people. There are limitations to comparisons but you are reducing all of economics to opinion and conjecture if no comparison can be made.

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
1:00 pm

“However, we’ve gotten ourselves so far in debt now that the only realistic solution is massive inflation. ”

massive inflation???

and that would be because businesses are hiring like mad to the point that wage wars are going on …

sorry, but massive inflation isn’t a problem in the near-term.

Lord Help Us

April 25th, 2012
1:01 pm

‘but how much have they increased under Obama?’

A lot less than under GWB…don’t recall you protesting then…

270 more days

April 25th, 2012
1:01 pm

Kinda like the overweight person that is told he must loose weight before he can have a required knee replacement………………………….

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

April 25th, 2012
1:02 pm

USinUK (and others)–Obviously the government, which has the ability to simply print more money, cannot be directly compared to a business or household…

Yet obviously, you did.

Look before I leap...

April 25th, 2012
1:02 pm

To the Fortune 500 guy with the vacation and raise woes.
If your company is downsizing and cutting costs, it’s because there is too much company for the amount of business they do.
No company pro-actively downsizes in anticipation of higher taxes. They may slow are even stall growth, but if there are apples on the tree, they aren’t gonna stop pickin ‘em simply because the bad ole tax man is waiting by the market.

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:03 pm

You know the Con argument on health care – socialized medicine is bad, just look at France, Greece and England.

Then you bring up Switzerland, Canada, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Denmark, Spain, etc and they don’t ever respond since they’ve already made their point and you are never going to change their minds on that issue.

Aquagirl

April 25th, 2012
1:03 pm

Obama has been setting those policies from before he was born???

Remember, some of these people think he placed his own fake birth announcement in a newspaper. They’re terrified our country is run by a Kenyan with a time machine.

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
1:04 pm

Even if I did have an opinion, I wouldn’t put down hard numbers without a reliable source.

Finn–Did you follow the logic behind Jay’s statement above that economic theories can never be objectively tested because we can never have a “control group” by which to measure the results of any specific policy against?? In other words, there are no “hard numbers” available. All we can do is look for analogies and apply some common sense. Jay’s “common sense” suggests that austerity measures are harmful to the economy. And, in a short run sense, I agree with him. However, some of us, like Newt and myself, are “Big Idea” people, who are more concerned with the long-term health of our economy than whatever short term pain we must go through to get to a better place. Capiche??

Don't Forget

April 25th, 2012
1:05 pm

Bruno, why do you say the government can simply “print more money”? Is that what you think is happening? We are not on a gold standard. The currency is merely a medium of exchange. There is no need to print more money. It’s value is related to our ability to pay our debts but that is much different than the “print more money” notion of a currency that is backed in some government owned assets.

Butch Cassidy

April 25th, 2012
1:05 pm

Mr Right – “Yes we entitlements have been here for years but how much have they increased under Obama? Is there a limit to what we can give away?”

Well, right now they consume a mere 13% of the budget, how much would you like. Oh, and does the other 87% phase you at all, or are you just mad at food stamps?

stands for decibels

April 25th, 2012
1:05 pm

entitlements have been here for years but how much have they increased under Obama?

I can think of very few major increases to anything one might term an “entitlement” under this president. There was an expansion of SCHIP (which probably helped, rather than hurt, fiscally) and maybe you could count HAMP if you wanted to stretch things, and… um…

I’m sure Mr. Right can fill me in on this though.

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
1:05 pm

Yet obviously, you did.

And obviously some here understand what analogies are all about, and some don’t……..

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
1:06 pm

“Yes we entitlements have been here for years but how much have they increased under Obama? Is there a limit to what we can give away?”

what are you talking about???

what are we “giving away” – surely, you don’t mean SSN, which people pay into … or unemployment, which businesses pay into … or medicare/medicaid, which we all support …

so, please. tell me. what entitlements have increased massively under Obama, making him JUST LIKE GREECE.

Illegal Alien

April 25th, 2012
1:06 pm

It would be interesting to hear someone come up with a plan that actually required some sacrifice from themselves.

Every solution wants to cut somewhere other than home.

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:06 pm

Entitlements have increased under Obama? Compared to what?

What else is he giving away that Bush didn’t give away?

Of course, when you have a people losing jobs the unemployment spending increase. Is that what you mean?

Steve

April 25th, 2012
1:08 pm

You mean all the corporate welfare we give away and have for decades?

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
1:08 pm

“or are you just mad at food stamps?”

DAMN YOU FOODSTAMPS!!!

if people just went HUNGRY, then they’d DEFINITELY get a job!!!

270 more days

April 25th, 2012
1:08 pm

UK, do you deny that entitlements have grown to the highest level ever under the O’Bama tenure?

Rockerbabe

April 25th, 2012
1:08 pm

The demand cycle sort of goes like this: demand is a consumer’s desire or need for various goods and services and the ability to get the desired goods and services has everything to do with available income [from all sources: salaried, pensions, dividends, lottery winnings, ets].

When demand goes down, because a job or other income is lost, the consumer goes into a period of austerity and their demand decreases. When demand decreases, the business economy shrinks, more employees are laid off and their economy/demand then decreases or they employ a strategy of austerity.

When government employs an austerity plan of its own, the most vulnerable in our society are the ones most hurt. Their own austerity plans, become plans of desperation as they are unable to meet the most basic of needs, let alone, desires or wants. This leads to more unemployment and more personal austerity.

To jump-start a society’s economy, whereby demand in increased by consumers, the government has to spend money to support the economy, but doing the long term, big project, such as roads, bridges, schools, public health, ect. When government cuts back – ie their austerity plan, then the society as a whole is harmed and we are seeing that in Britian. Austerity in a time of economic recession is just a plan to hurt more people and make the economy less robust.

The time for austerity or government cut-backs, should be when the economy is booming and the private sector is robust enough to absorb any government employment cutbacks. But not, most GOP want to spend and spend and spend and when they can’t do that, they cut taxes for the rich and start wars. President Obama is right, the government has to spend, because the private sector is not doing so on the level needed to restart our own economy and put folks back to work.
If the private sector won’t do it, then who will? Most folks know the answer to that.

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:09 pm

Jay presents an economic situation with numbers to back it up and how do the Cons respond?

With opinions, conjecture, stuff squeezed out their bumpuses.

Cons, go watch some Fox News a brush up on the next talking points, you are way in over your head here.

Steve

April 25th, 2012
1:09 pm

270 more days…do you deny that when the economy tanks (Bush recession) and more people fall into poverty that more people would need assistance? (all the while the stock market climbs and CEO salaries skyrocket…)

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
1:10 pm

Just as we’ve done for the last 30 years. However it only seemed to become an issue once the Republicans lost most of the House, the Senate and the Whitehouse.

Butch–Really?? Though I often disagree with your opinions, I’ve always respected your logic in forming those differing opinions. If you can’t recognize that our debt situation is unmatched in modern times, then you must have some huge blinders on.

Mr Right

April 25th, 2012
1:10 pm

Still no answer on how much entitlements increased under Obama without even counting Obamacare!

Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes

April 25th, 2012
1:11 pm

And obviously some here understand what analogies are all about, and some don’t……..

And obviously someone here doesn’t understand that he condescendingly used an incorrect analogy and then later tried to condescendingly walk it back by using the word “obviously.”

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:11 pm

Rockerbabe, that is well said.

Mr Right

April 25th, 2012
1:12 pm

Yall have a good day, got to go to work!

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
1:12 pm

Jay presents an economic situation with numbers to back it up and how do the Cons respond?

Finn–Are you really that stupid?? Jay put some numbers up, yet directly admitted that there is no valid way to ‘test” various economic theories. Did you miss that paragraph??

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:13 pm

Mr Right asks a question and expects someone else to do the research for him.

Must be a Con.

USinUK

April 25th, 2012
1:13 pm

“UK, do you deny that entitlements have grown to the highest level ever under the O’Bama tenure?”

I deny that food stamps = government retirement at 60 with full salary

I deny that social security payments = a huge black market economy where a minority of people pay taxes

I deny that medicare/medicaid = false economic reporting (which is how Greece got into the EU – and which was one of the problems with their subsequent inability to address their own financial problems with monetary policies)

there.

that answer your question???

Bruno

April 25th, 2012
1:14 pm

And obviously someone here doesn’t understand that he condescendingly used an incorrect analogy and then later tried to condescendingly walk it back by using the word “obviously.”

If you have a better analogy, then put it up. Because that’s all we have to work with here. If you reread my posts, I identified my statement as a opinion and my analogy as an analogy.

Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)

April 25th, 2012
1:15 pm

Well, Bruno, give us some valid links to studies that back up what you are pulling out the caboose…

JamVet

April 25th, 2012
1:18 pm

It’s really quite simple: Conservatives can’t govern.

The reason is that these Republicans are NOT conservatives.

They are anything but.

They have in fact killed, murdered, slayed and destroyed American conservatism.

They are economic liberals of the highest degree.

They are by and large, never-served chickenhawks, who don’t have one one hundredth the moral courage or common sense that Dwight D. Eisenhower had.

They are quasi-fascistic McCarthyites and 1950s reactionaries.

But conservative???!

HUGE LOL!!!