What Chris Hitchens and Jonah Goldberg both got wrong
Christopher Hitchens
In his atheistic diatribe “God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything,” the late Christopher Hitchens revisited the various evils and excesses committed in the name of religion over the centuries. And they are many.
Yet what about the brutal excesses of secular, atheistic regimes, such as Stalin’s USSR, Hitler’s Third Reich, Mao’s China and Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge? Doesn’t their existence challenge the claim that it is somehow religion that is at fault, rather than something still deeper in the human psyche?
In response, Hitchens offered what I consider to be an intellectually lazy answer, an answer designed to try to win a debate rather than get at the truth:
The regimes of Stalin, Mao, Hitler and Pol Pot were also religious in nature, Hitchens argued, because they substituted the worship of an individual or ideology for the worship of a god. Therefore, all evil that those regimes did must be totted up on religion’s side of the ledger, leaving the secular world unstained.
With that contention — voila! — Hitchen’s problem was solved, or so he claimed.
In a 2007 tour to promote “God Is Not Great”, Hitchens traveled the country debating religious experts about its theme. Here in Atlanta, he crossed rhetorical swords with Tim Jackson, a professor of Christian ethics at Emory’s Candler School of Theology. And Jackson, to his credit, refused to condone Hitchen’s cheap debating tactic:
Timothy Jackson
“If we can embrace such doublespeak that North Korea is a religious institution, a religious regime, and understand Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot as fundamentally religious, then religion has become an ugly meaningless term,” Jackson pointed out.
“We’re all sinful and we can all contribute to horrific injustice, whether we’re believers or not,” the professor reminded the crowd. “….the worm at the heart of human nature is deeper than that.”
(An audio of the Hitchens/Jackson debate is available here.).
In that regard at least, Hitchens shared a lot with his one-time neighbor in New York, conservative writer Jonah Goldberg. In his 2008 book “Liberal Fascism,” Goldberg echoed Hitchens by alleging that all totalitarianism, including fascism, is by nature liberal in its origins.
Clearly, communist regimes in the USSR and China were brutal and tyrannical. But what of, say, Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, which are historically treated as examples of right-wing dictatorships? Do they not demonstrate that totalitarianism is a temptation to which both the right and left might succumb?
To Goldberg, the answer is no. He argues that Nazi Germany was actually a left-wing manifestation that drew its poison from the wells of liberalism and socialism. In fact, in his view of the world the phrase “right-wing dictatorship” is an impossible contradiction and a null set. Conservatives by definition could never be tempted to seek absolute power; thus, those who seek absolute power could never be conservative.
In a new posting at National Review, where he works as a columnist, Goldberg claims to have found further evidence of his thesis in a two-part series on Nazi Germany that was originally published in 1932 in The Atlantic and has now been republished on the Internet.
(The articles by Nicolas Fairweather are astonishing in their own right, demonstrating just how predictable the coming nightmare really was. Everything — the attempted genocide of the Jews, the invasion first of France and then of the Soviet Union — was all well-known and understood by those who cared to do so long before Hitler even gained power.)
Jonah Goldberg
However, when you read the articles cited, you realize once again how thin and downright silly Goldberg’s argument really is. For example, the 1932 Atlantic article lists “the principal articles of Hitler’s political faith,” which included:
“(Hitler’s) violent animosity to Marxian Socialism as in essence opposed to his ideal of a nationally minded people and a racial state. He condemns the Socialism of Marx as a poisonous teaching which by its humanitarianism, its internationalism, and its pacifism — all legacies of the unnatural and unwholesome democracy of the French Revolution — operates to undermine the clean ideal of Aryan (that is, German) overlordship.”
Hitler saw “Marxian Socialism” as a Jewish invention, “the principal tool by which they insinuate themselves into healthy, pure blooded, racial states.” He despised labor unions and expressed contempt for the common man. As the Atlantic piece reported:
“Class warfare, it appeared (to Hitler), was necessarily a destroyer of nationalism. In reacting against the internationalism and class-consciousness of the orthodox Socialists (’Marxists’ is the term Hitler always uses), he has made himself the outstanding opponent of all Communistic tendencies.”
Remember, this is all in an article cited as evidence in favor of Goldberg’s thesis.
In one sense, I am admittedly rehashing old ground — both the Goldberg book and the Hitchens book were published years ago. However, as the 1932 Atlantic pieces demonstrate, bad ideas and bad history can have profound consequences if left unchallenged.
It is dangerous for any group of people to wrap themselves in a belief that they are immune to the temptations of power, because once you make that mistake, those temptations become all the harder to resist. As George Orwell documented so well, for example, a similar arrogance on the left during the ’20s, ’30s and ’40s led many liberals to dismiss evidence of just how brutal the Soviet Union had become.
There will always be those who are eager to take as much power as possible; likewise, there will always be those who are willing to surrender that power to others. Political philosophy and religious faith make no one exempt to either temptation.
Because, as the good professor noted:
“The worm at the heart of human nature is deeper than that.”
– Jay Bookman
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903 comments Add your comment
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2012
8:26 pm
“Well, gotta run. No use waiting around for Jay to ever admit he doesn’t know what he’s talking about”
No use waiting around for Bruno to ever admit he doesn’t know what he’s talking about
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
8:27 pm
Arguing that the Nazis were left-wing because they called themselves National Socialist is like arguing that East Germany was democratic because it called itself the German Democratic Republic.
St Simons - he-ne-hah
April 23rd, 2012
8:28 pm
Enter your comments here
Thulsa Doom
April 23rd, 2012
8:28 pm
“but our esteemed host has now informed me that all of your opinions are bunk also.”
And if he were friends with Marconi I can venture that in his self assuredness of science he would have been one of the ones pushing to have Marconi committed to an asylum.
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
7:55 pm
“The Swiss mathematician who made that calculation, Charles-Eugene Guye, died in 1942. So let’s just say he wasn’t exactly operating with the benefit of modern knowledge, shall we?”
Jay,
Going by that logic should we then throw out the theory of Darwin from a couple of centuries ago? Does Einstein’s theory also not deserve merit since it was during the same time frame as that of the Swiss mathmetician I spoke of? Does Plato’s(or was is Socrates) concept of pi no longer apply because it was a few thousand years ago? Does Maxwell’s mathematics from long ago before Einstein no longer apply? I could go on all day long but hopefully by now you recognize the absurdity of your point. And likewise what are the new odds? Are they now one in 10 to the 100th power instead of on in ten to the 160th power?- both astronomical numbers still.
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
8:30 pm
Well, gotta run. No use waiting around for Jay to ever admit he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
Right. I take the side of every serious biologist in the world, while Bruno posits some unknown “intelligence” hidden somewhere, and I’m the one who “doesn’t know what he’s talking about.”
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
April 23rd, 2012
8:31 pm
Sooth, that’s the one! I guess I can make it thru the week now. I can dream, can’t I?
josef
April 23rd, 2012
8:32 pm
St Simon’s
Scroll down to the top of p226
“it makes our head ach…”
http://books.google.com/books?id=1SQ0YG9ozB8C&pg=PA222&lpg=PA222&dq=chickasaw+letter+to+american+revolution&source=bl&ots=sxGZm_y6sq&sig=B1C4Dxda67MaxPXOEtU80v4SBfY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JfOVT7z2Acaw6AHP_9nMDg&ved=0CDQQ6AE
JAY
Good one on Aaron..
BROSEPHUS
Got it….
TaxPayer
April 23rd, 2012
8:33 pm
German Democratic Republic
That would make it like the USA of Europe, wouldn’t it.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
8:33 pm
I take the side of every serious biologist in the world, while Bruno posits some unknown “intelligence” hidden somewhere, and I’m the one who “doesn’t know what he’s talking about.”
Well, Jay, as soon as one of those “serious biologists” can explain how 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 atoms can all work together in our bodies for one common cause without making any appeals to Universal Intelligence, then I’ll listen to what they have to say.
Gotta run, Newt’s on the line looking for some new Big Ideas for his campaign…….
Smeat
April 23rd, 2012
8:34 pm
Haj Mohammed Effendi Amin el-Husseini – Arabic: محمد أمين الحسيني
His opposition to the British peaked during the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine. In 1937, evading an arrest warrant, he fled Palestine and took refuge in, successively, the French Mandate of Lebanon and the Kingdom of Iraq, until he established himself in Italy and finally Germany. During World War II he actively collaborated with both Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, meeting Adolf Hitler personally and asking him to back Arab independence. He requested, as part of the Pan-Arab struggle, Hitler’s support to oppose the establishment in Palestine of a Jewish national home. He was promised the leadership of the Arabs after German troops had driven out the British.[4] He helped recruit Muslims for the Waffen-SS. At war’s end, he came under French protection, and managed to slip away to Cairo to avoid eventual prosecution.
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2012
8:34 pm
“how 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 atoms can all work together in our bodies”
And I bet you counted EVERY SINGLE ONE too!
josef
April 23rd, 2012
8:35 pm
And then there are those who CAN break the cardinal rule of the IMAN’s ’bout engaging self…do the term double standard mean anything? Hrrrumph…..
JAY
There WAS a left wing of the Nazis…Ernst Roehm, but look at what happened to him, eh?
Recon 0311 2533
April 23rd, 2012
8:37 pm
Blagojevich, says that he has three cell mates and he and his bunk buddy are very close and have bonded. Wonder if Patty has found a friend to bond with. Democrats seem to like bonding with each other. Is bonding a liberal fetish?
Smeat
April 23rd, 2012
8:37 pm
Iran — The language is called Farsi
In Farsi, Iran translates to “Aryan”
Thank goodness the Nazis were able to convince the leaders of Persia to change the name of their country to Iran…. Sieg Heil ????
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2012
8:39 pm
“Thank goodness the Nazis were able to convince the leaders of Persia to change the name of their country to Iran…. Sieg Heil ????”
What has always amazed me was that a small, dark haired and eyed man was able to convince pretty much a whole population that being tall, blond and blue eyed was the ideal. Did NO ONE every see that irony in that? (Is it irony I mean?)
josef
April 23rd, 2012
8:39 pm
DEL
Sorta like wide-stance, eh?
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
8:40 pm
Frog,
willard and our President agree on some issues.
We have to wait to see willard’s evolution to his new positions.
Soothsayer
April 23rd, 2012
8:41 pm
Redneck: if you’re lucky maybe she’ll look over your “corn dog.”
ragnar danneskjold
April 23rd, 2012
8:41 pm
Dear Jay @ 5:25, the only thing hilarious here is your inability to justify leftism.
Your strongest argument is that “regulations expand under republicans, and that proves that regulation is thus the province of all overlords, including conservatives.” No leftist advocates eliminating regulations, and no leftist advocates eliminating agencies, and no leftist advocates cutting nonmilitary spending. Every conservative advocates eliminating regulations, and every conservative advocates eliminating agencies, and every conservative advocates cutting nonmilitary spending. Against that backdrop you affirm the those who would use the tools of government to micromanage business are, or can be, conservatives. Does that pass for intellectual insight on the left?
You are correct to affirm that I do not regard the stepfather of the Kennedy education bill as a conservative. I do not regard the stepfather of the Daschle agriculture bill as a conservative. I do not regard the head of a government that imposes steel tariffs as a conservative. I do not regard one who lobbied Congress for a bailout of Goldman Sachs as a conservative. Those are all the acts of a leftist. That every one of those policies is a failure is perhaps a point we can agree on; but only a conservative can affirm, with intellectual honesty, that the failures were foreseeable. As with the “Stimulus.” And as with “ObamaCare.” Same foolish anti-market theoretical basis as all of the foregoing.
I think it fair to note that leftists learned nothing from the agenda of Alfred Kahn – the deregulation of interstate shipping, the elimination of minimum airline ticket prices, the abolition of bank deposit rate interest regulations – all accomplished during the administration of Jimmy Carter. But conservatives, during the Reagan administration, advocated for the abolition of price controls on natural gas and then on gasoline, to the mournful wails of leftists affirming the end of the world amid “obscene profits” for the oil companies. (For the uninformed, those prices fell precipitously, below Carter-era prices, approx six months after the companies were freed from the government embrace, notably first enacted under Nixon.)
Even now we have a clueless president who affirms the rising oil prices reflect an absence of government control over “speculators,” whoever they are. Any competent analyst will tell you the “speculators” are betting with their own money against stupid government development and marketing policies – for an informed observer, they would be the canary in the coal mine. Regulations are dear to leftists, and poison to conservatives.
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2012
8:41 pm
“We have to wait to see willard’s evolution to his new positions.”
I bet it won’t be scientific evolution though!
TaxPayer
April 23rd, 2012
8:41 pm
Is bonding a liberal fetish?
Only when you use super glue.
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2012
8:42 pm
“Only when you use super glue”
Beat me to it!
Recon 0311 2533
April 23rd, 2012
8:42 pm
East Germany did fall into step with communist Russia and became very much a part of the Soviet Block. I guess as former Nazi’s they felt aligned with their Soviet conquers.
Thulsa Doom
April 23rd, 2012
8:43 pm
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
8:23 pm
“I would certainly never say that all of Doom’s opinions are bunk. Not in the least.
I do, however, question his qualifications to referee this particular debate.”
As the self appointed referee I have to question your qualifications to enter into this debate!
Just messin with you Jay but seriously. Bruno’s logic and scientific and mathematics background has been demonstrated on here over and over. If you can’t recognize that his level of math and science understanding is advanced beyond yours, mine, and many of the others on here then I just don’t know what to say.
From what I’ve seen in his posts over the past year, the links he references regarding books, scientists, math and logic works, philosophers, concerning the areas of math and science are well beyond the scope of most others on here. I only say this now that he is gone cause I don’t want to be seen as tooting his horn for him. Doomy don’t like tooting anyone’s horn but his own.
And I don’t want to belittle you or doggone or anyone else but it just seems to me that his logic and in particular his grasp of science and math is well beyond that of you and most others on here. And I don’t mean that in an insulting manner either. Its more a credit to his background than a putdown of you, doggone, or anyone else on here.
godless heathen
April 23rd, 2012
8:43 pm
“I planted some plants.”
I celebrated Earth Day in the traditional manner. I mixed up a big batch of Round Up and sprayed a bunch of plants.
barking frog
April 23rd, 2012
8:44 pm
getalife
willard is tricky,
but i think our president
is trickier.
Soothsayer
April 23rd, 2012
8:44 pm
What many people don’t realize is that Hitler’s original surname was Hiedler (a Jewish surname and, in fact, Hitler was Jewish) until he had it changed to Hitler.
Hitler had his home town used for artillery practice to wipe any evidence of his familial heritage from the face of the Earth.
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2012
8:45 pm
“his grasp of science and math is well beyond that of you and most others on here”
Yep, WAY, WAY beyond. No argument. It’s just WAY out there.
josef
April 23rd, 2012
8:45 pm
DEL
East Germany was largely carved from Prussia and Prussia was probably the LEAST Nazi of the geopolitical divisions of the Third Reich.
Thulsa Doom
April 23rd, 2012
8:46 pm
Did NO ONE every see that irony in that? (Is it irony I mean?)
The bigger irony is that I think historians say his mother or grandmother I don’t remember which was Jewish.
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
8:46 pm
del,
Did you forget the gop bondage club thingie?
Recon 0311 2533
April 23rd, 2012
8:47 pm
josef, not sure what that means. Is that jail house slang?
Thulsa Doom
April 23rd, 2012
8:48 pm
Doggone/GA
I didn’t want to be belittling but I’m sorry. You’re just not in his league in matters of science or math from what I’ve seen. Look on the bright side though. I doubt he is in your league in dog psychology.
TaxPayer
April 23rd, 2012
8:48 pm
I do, however, question his qualifications to referee this particular debate.
I did not see where Thulsa addressed that question. State your qualifications, if you please.
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2012
8:49 pm
“I didn’t want to be belittling but I’m sorry”
Why is your being sorry belittling to me? I wouldn’t argue that statement one bit.
Thulsa Doom
April 23rd, 2012
8:50 pm
josef,
Well ya learn something new everyday. I had the impression that Prussia was very pro-nazi. BTW maybe you can answer this. Was it Hitler’s mother or grandmother that was Jewish. If it was his mother doesn’t that in fact make him Jewish according to Jewish law?
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
8:50 pm
Methinks doomy is a tad biased.
Recon 0311 2533
April 23rd, 2012
8:51 pm
josef,
Didn’t Hitler have Prussian roots?
josef
April 23rd, 2012
8:52 pm
SOOTH
The original name was Schikelgruber (Heil, Schickelgruber just don’t have the same punch, do it!) and the “theory” that he had Jewish ancestry comes from the theory that his father was the illegitimate son of a Jewish father… here’s a pretty good synopsis of the theory
http://www.lloydthomas.org/1-IsraelTimeLine/7-1930-1999/hitler.html
TaxPayer
April 23rd, 2012
8:54 pm
Didn’t Hitler have Prussian roots?
Only his hairdresser knows for sure.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
April 23rd, 2012
8:54 pm
Romans 1:18-33
“18 For God’s wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, 19 since what can be known[o] about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse. 21 For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man, birds, four-footed animals, and reptiles.”
Thulsa Doom
April 23rd, 2012
8:55 pm
Taxpayer,
Bruno simply asked me what I thought of the little debate he had going between himself, Jay, and doggone and others. It was on evolution and such.
Well naturally being a paragon of neutrality in the con lib debates I concluded that B made a lot more sense in his arguments. Seriously though his links and scientific references and logic simply made more sense to me. They usually do and that’s even when I take off my right wing tinted sunglasses.
Thulsa Doom
April 23rd, 2012
8:57 pm
“Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools”
Scout, that about sums it up.
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2012
8:57 pm
“even when I take off my right wing tinted sunglasses.”
It’s not the sunglasses that are the problem. It’s the blinders.
Smeat
April 23rd, 2012
8:57 pm
Hitler was bad.
Mussolini was bad.
Hirohito was bad.
Stalin was bad.
Mao was bad.
FDR, the wannabe US dictator, and Churchill were the good guys…
My grandfather didn’t give a damn when he took a bullet in 1945.
barking frog
April 23rd, 2012
8:59 pm
Scout
No graven images.
TaxPayer
April 23rd, 2012
8:59 pm
Thulsa,
I inquired with regard to Jay’s question regarding your qualifications to referee said discussion. You still provided no qualifications.
DebbieDoRight - A Do Right Woman
April 23rd, 2012
9:00 pm
scout- now tell me what that paragrapph you posted means…..
josef
April 23rd, 2012
9:01 pm
DEL
Wide stance? Sen. Larry Craig scandal…
Hitler had no Prussian roots…Austrian…
THULSA
See that 8:52 link to Sooth…
A lot of people do think Prussia was pro-Nazi…they were the heartland of the military aristocracy and because the military were coopted by the Nazis, it has been assumed that they, and ergo the Prussians, were pro-Nazi…Prussia was governed by a Social Democrat plurality in an anti-Nazi, anti-Communist coalition until 1932…
TaxPayer
April 23rd, 2012
9:02 pm
That passage that scout has posted appears to be one dealing with idolatry. What you people been worshipping? The Geico Gecko?
Recon 0311 2533
April 23rd, 2012
9:04 pm
“Claiming to be wise, they became fools.”
Yes, that certainly does describe the American far-left.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
April 23rd, 2012
9:04 pm
If anyone can watch this in its entirety without realilzing their must be a Creator ………. then there is no help for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=fKyljukBE70
barking frog
April 23rd, 2012
9:05 pm
Taxpayer
a barking frog?
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
9:05 pm
“No leftist advocates eliminating regulations, and no leftist advocates eliminating agencies, and no leftist advocates cutting nonmilitary spending.
So Ragnar, Obama is not a leftist? The things that you learn on this blog!
Argin
April 23rd, 2012
9:06 pm
Hitler’s fascist regime was totally based on Christianity. China has an atheist state, but it embraces Chinese traditions. You got to dig deeper to understand what Hitchens stood for. He always mentioned that he is not just against “your God”;as he would say, but he was against any kind of delusional actions, in many cases worshiping gods around the world. Having said that, having “faith” in a political or economic systems, especially in communist regimes, is no different than having “faith” in a super natural being. Name a religious government that takes care of its people? Now count the secular regimes that care about their people. His main problem with religion was faith in religious set of laws that destroy humanity and get into people’s private lives, yet there are no set of atheist rules.
Recon 0311 2533
April 23rd, 2012
9:06 pm
josef, thanks.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
April 23rd, 2012
9:08 pm
DebbieDoRight – A Do Right Woman:
If you study those verses and read on through that book you will discover that:
Mankind on his/her own automatically sinks eventually into depravity.
Even one sin separates you from a Holy God.
Christ took that separation on the cross as your substiute.
But only if you acknowledge and accept that free gift.
josef
April 23rd, 2012
9:09 pm
ARGIN
“Totally” based on…oy, Mate, you need to do some research…
josef
April 23rd, 2012
9:10 pm
Recon 0311 2533
April 23rd, 2012
9:04 pm
“Claiming to be wise, they became fools.”
Yes, that certainly does describe the American far-left.
*******
AND the far right…
Recon 0311 2533
April 23rd, 2012
9:13 pm
josef, yeah, but us middle right guy’s have got it right, right?
St Simons - he-ne-hah
April 23rd, 2012
9:16 pm
josef, good history – see? with us, a subtle dark humor in everything,
barking frog
April 23rd, 2012
9:17 pm
scout, josef
how was mary impregnated?
Recon 0311 2533
April 23rd, 2012
9:17 pm
Y’all have a great evening. Some things to do and then Taps. out
Argin
April 23rd, 2012
9:17 pm
Josef,
I don’t see how collecting Christian artifacts to boost soldier’s delusional faith from around the world and calling out churches for recruitments is not part of “totally”. No need to say that Churches in Nazy Germany era used to celebrate Hitler’s birthday.
F. Sinkwich
April 23rd, 2012
9:19 pm
““I planted some plants.”
I celebrated Earth Day in the traditional manner. I mixed up a big batch of Round Up and sprayed a bunch of plants.”
I had it all planned out, but because of the poor marketing and promotional strategy by the eco-weenies among us, I forgot about this momentous event.
My planned commeration:
From 8:00 pm to 9:00 pm, I would have turned on every light in mt abode –all incandescent (no guvmint curly-Q bulbies for me!)
Then fire up the family truckster to idle in the driveway.
Turn on the clothes drier, then the dishwasher. Turn the AC down on the upper level; heat up on the lower. Turn the ovens on to 450 degrees in prep for a pizza.
This solemn occasion would have made me weepy.
*sniff*
josef
April 23rd, 2012
9:20 pm
St Simon’s
Them was some bad ass mo fo’s…Bring it on!
DEL
If and when y’all start accepting your natural allies in the middle left…but until then, y’all are both doomed to a repeat of the same ineffectiveness…and that’s coming from a far leftie…
DebbieDoRight - A Do Right Woman
April 23rd, 2012
9:20 pm
scout – it is one of Paul’s letters to the Romans. He’s speaking to them of how to live by faith and how God’s wisdom and purpose is “All.”
I am obligated both to Greeks and non-Greeks, both to the wise and the foolish. 15 That is why I am so eager to preach the gospel also to you who are in Rome.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”[f]
josef
April 23rd, 2012
9:24 pm
frog
Not my religion, so I stay out of that one…
Argin
As I said, do a little reading…the whole Aryan thingie was based on neo-paganism…Hitler played the established religious institution like a harp, to be sure, but it was not ideological. It’s that use of “totally” I find questionable and simplistic…
F. Sinkwich
April 23rd, 2012
9:25 pm
““No leftist advocates eliminating regulations, and no leftist advocates eliminating agencies, and no leftist advocates cutting nonmilitary spending.
So Ragnar, Obama is not a leftist? The things that you learn on this blog!”
Jay made a funny.
He knows as all rational human beings on this planet that O’bozo is a euro-socialist Marxist who believes that only the federal government can cure all societal ills.
Silly Jay.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
April 23rd, 2012
9:26 pm
“Apparently, I’m supposed to be more outraged by what Mitt Romney does with his money
than by what Barack Obama does with mine.”
Author Unknown
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
April 23rd, 2012
9:28 pm
Debbie @ 9:20:
And I agree.
barking frog
April 23rd, 2012
9:29 pm
josef
too bad, the christians
consider themselves
the continuation of
judaism by following
the jewish messiah.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
April 23rd, 2012
9:30 pm
barking frog:
The Bible (N.T.) says it was a miracle by the power of the Holy Spirit.
If I believe God created the universe then I certainly do not have a problem with God in the flesh coming to this earth to die for our sins via a virgin birth.
Argin
April 23rd, 2012
9:31 pm
Sure the Aryan “thingie” played a role, still considering Hitler’s fascist state as atheist is just not true. I was trying to point out Church’s role in Nazy Germany, and please you do some research too.
St Simons - he-ne-hah
April 23rd, 2012
9:31 pm
…reading some of this other jibberish……
josef, you’ll know – wasn’t the swastika a religious symbol or something?
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
April 23rd, 2012
9:31 pm
barking frog @ 9:29 :
That’s what Christ said.
Yours to accept …………. or not.
dbm
April 23rd, 2012
9:32 pm
Towncrier
April 23rd, 2012
5:37 pm
Once you understand what values are and why we need them, your questions will be answered. For a fuller explanation, please read The Virtue of Selfishness by Ayn Rand.
barking frog
April 23rd, 2012
9:33 pm
Scout
the holy spirit. i haven’t
read in a while.
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2012
9:33 pm
“josef, you’ll know – wasn’t the swastika a religious symbol or something?”
It is a reversal of an Indian (East) Sanskrit symbol for peace and/or good luck
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
April 23rd, 2012
9:33 pm
barking frog:
John 14:
“6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would knowb my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.”
Argin
April 23rd, 2012
9:34 pm
Nazi*
Thulsa Doom
April 23rd, 2012
9:34 pm
TaxPayer
April 23rd, 2012
8:59 pm
Thulsa,
“I inquired with regard to Jay’s question regarding your qualifications to referee said discussion. You still provided no qualifications.”
Taxpayer,
Otay. Here’s my qualifications to be blog referee- Why am I qualified? Because I effing said so! You don’t like it? Tough! To the nonsense corner I now banish thee.
dbm
April 23rd, 2012
9:34 pm
Soothsayer
April 23rd, 2012
5:38 pm
You misunderstand the nature of Libertarianism. Please read Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal by Ayn Rand.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
April 23rd, 2012
9:35 pm
barking frog:
God is a trinity just as you are. Three in one ………… Father, Son and Spirit.
The human mind cannot really comprehend it but you were made in that image which is a “type” of the trininty.
You are body, soul and spirit. Yet how many people are you ? ONE !
barking frog
April 23rd, 2012
9:37 pm
Thulsa
I think you were as qualified
to referee as the debaters
were to debate..
Josef
April 23rd, 2012
9:38 pm
St Simon
It appears all around the world India Indians and American Indians alike…..
Argin
I will agree that it could not be considered an atheist state…indeed, civil registry of population continued to register by religious affiliation…
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
9:39 pm
“Thulsa
I think you were as qualified
to referee as the debaters
were to debate..”
That’s fair.
And good night all.
F. Sinkwich
April 23rd, 2012
9:40 pm
O’bozo 1:09
Give onto me all that is yours as I possess all wisdom to distribute your pieces of gold to those I deem more deserving.
Bow to me, I am the messiah as proven daily by the wisdom of the MSM.
I know what’s best for you.
Amen.
barking frog
April 23rd, 2012
9:41 pm
scout
my wife would argue ONE
too many..
Thulsa Doom
April 23rd, 2012
9:41 pm
barking frog,
good one. Tee hee.
Thulsa Doom
April 23rd, 2012
9:48 pm
“Mankind on his/her own automatically sinks eventually into depravity”
Scout,
I’ve spent some time just thinking about that before. It does seem that the less Godly we became as a nation the more we sank to the level of the sewer. First abortion. Now pornography and smut everywhere. The open celebration and glorification of the sorriest people- from reality tv stars to misogynous rock and rap stars. And then there is the superficiality and violence on tv and in our pop culture in general. Pretty sorry, sewere culture that we keep sinking further into.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
April 23rd, 2012
9:53 pm
Thulsa:
I once saw an article (can’t find it now) where someone charted the encline and decline of our nation at least on moral terms. If I remember correctly, we peaked morally as a nation in 1962. That year the author stated was the year the Supreme Court took prayer out of our public schools. It’s been downhill ever since.
Our nation was not founded as a theocracy but it was founded on Judeo/Christian values that recognized God as Creator. As that is taken out ……….. a vaccum exist that must be replaced by something ………. and that something is becoming increasingly ugly.
0311/8541/5811/1811/1801
April 23rd, 2012
9:54 pm
barking frog:
“scout
my wife would argue ONE
too many..”
I hear you humor and understand it (believe me) but eternity is a serious thing.
DebbieDoRight - A Do Right Woman
April 23rd, 2012
9:55 pm
Doom- abortion, pornography, et al. are not NEW to this century or to this time. and violence as entertainment has been going on since before the time of Christ. From The Roman Gladiators on down.
barking frog
April 23rd, 2012
9:56 pm
scout
eternity is reserved for
christians.
Smeat
April 23rd, 2012
9:57 pm
George Bernard Shaw in his own words —
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Mvqi-ZoAq8
Thulsa Doom
April 23rd, 2012
9:59 pm
Scout,
Looking at it from purely secular terms the same also holds true but not just in terms of morality. A couple of recent books one in particular outlining the rise and fall of the roman empire and then comparing the likewise similar trends in the U.S. Some strikingly similar themes that seem to portend that we are on the downtrend and fast. The debt situation alone has the nation on a future collission course with chaos. Just as Nero while Rome burned Obama just seems to fiddle away while the nation edges ever closer and quicker to the cliff’s edge.
DebbieDoRight - A Do Right Woman
April 23rd, 2012
9:59 pm
saw this in my inbox – you can always tell when its an election year….. before this i hadn’t heard from Old Tom for years…:
President’s Speech Highlights Lack of Plan
This past week, in a campaign speech before members of the press, President Obama criticized House Republican efforts to address our nation’s looming debt crisis. While we understand that the president disagrees with our positive path to pay off the debt and encourage economic growth and prosperity, it is troubling that he declined to offer a plan of his own to tackle the drivers of our debt. Nowhere in the president’s speech or in his own budget did he offer a credible set of solutions to avoid a predictable debt crisis. With trillion dollar annual deficits now the new normal under current economic and spending policies, America is fast approaching a fiscal cliff that will drown not only this generation but future generations in more debt, doubt, and despair.
House Republicans believe in a different future where America pays its debts and sees a renewal of prosperity grounded in the fundamental principles of free enterprise and economic opportunity for all.
suffice it to say, i got a good laugh out of this one!
barking frog
April 23rd, 2012
10:03 pm
DebbieDo
Don’t you believe that?
DebbieDoRight - A Do Right Woman
April 23rd, 2012
10:05 pm
Frog- my 6 month old nephew doesn’t even believe that!!!