What Chris Hitchens and Jonah Goldberg both got wrong
Christopher Hitchens
In his atheistic diatribe “God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything,” the late Christopher Hitchens revisited the various evils and excesses committed in the name of religion over the centuries. And they are many.
Yet what about the brutal excesses of secular, atheistic regimes, such as Stalin’s USSR, Hitler’s Third Reich, Mao’s China and Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge? Doesn’t their existence challenge the claim that it is somehow religion that is at fault, rather than something still deeper in the human psyche?
In response, Hitchens offered what I consider to be an intellectually lazy answer, an answer designed to try to win a debate rather than get at the truth:
The regimes of Stalin, Mao, Hitler and Pol Pot were also religious in nature, Hitchens argued, because they substituted the worship of an individual or ideology for the worship of a god. Therefore, all evil that those regimes did must be totted up on religion’s side of the ledger, leaving the secular world unstained.
With that contention — voila! — Hitchen’s problem was solved, or so he claimed.
In a 2007 tour to promote “God Is Not Great”, Hitchens traveled the country debating religious experts about its theme. Here in Atlanta, he crossed rhetorical swords with Tim Jackson, a professor of Christian ethics at Emory’s Candler School of Theology. And Jackson, to his credit, refused to condone Hitchen’s cheap debating tactic:
Timothy Jackson
“If we can embrace such doublespeak that North Korea is a religious institution, a religious regime, and understand Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot as fundamentally religious, then religion has become an ugly meaningless term,” Jackson pointed out.
“We’re all sinful and we can all contribute to horrific injustice, whether we’re believers or not,” the professor reminded the crowd. “….the worm at the heart of human nature is deeper than that.”
(An audio of the Hitchens/Jackson debate is available here.).
In that regard at least, Hitchens shared a lot with his one-time neighbor in New York, conservative writer Jonah Goldberg. In his 2008 book “Liberal Fascism,” Goldberg echoed Hitchens by alleging that all totalitarianism, including fascism, is by nature liberal in its origins.
Clearly, communist regimes in the USSR and China were brutal and tyrannical. But what of, say, Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, which are historically treated as examples of right-wing dictatorships? Do they not demonstrate that totalitarianism is a temptation to which both the right and left might succumb?
To Goldberg, the answer is no. He argues that Nazi Germany was actually a left-wing manifestation that drew its poison from the wells of liberalism and socialism. In fact, in his view of the world the phrase “right-wing dictatorship” is an impossible contradiction and a null set. Conservatives by definition could never be tempted to seek absolute power; thus, those who seek absolute power could never be conservative.
In a new posting at National Review, where he works as a columnist, Goldberg claims to have found further evidence of his thesis in a two-part series on Nazi Germany that was originally published in 1932 in The Atlantic and has now been republished on the Internet.
(The articles by Nicolas Fairweather are astonishing in their own right, demonstrating just how predictable the coming nightmare really was. Everything — the attempted genocide of the Jews, the invasion first of France and then of the Soviet Union — was all well-known and understood by those who cared to do so long before Hitler even gained power.)
Jonah Goldberg
However, when you read the articles cited, you realize once again how thin and downright silly Goldberg’s argument really is. For example, the 1932 Atlantic article lists “the principal articles of Hitler’s political faith,” which included:
“(Hitler’s) violent animosity to Marxian Socialism as in essence opposed to his ideal of a nationally minded people and a racial state. He condemns the Socialism of Marx as a poisonous teaching which by its humanitarianism, its internationalism, and its pacifism — all legacies of the unnatural and unwholesome democracy of the French Revolution — operates to undermine the clean ideal of Aryan (that is, German) overlordship.”
Hitler saw “Marxian Socialism” as a Jewish invention, “the principal tool by which they insinuate themselves into healthy, pure blooded, racial states.” He despised labor unions and expressed contempt for the common man. As the Atlantic piece reported:
“Class warfare, it appeared (to Hitler), was necessarily a destroyer of nationalism. In reacting against the internationalism and class-consciousness of the orthodox Socialists (’Marxists’ is the term Hitler always uses), he has made himself the outstanding opponent of all Communistic tendencies.”
Remember, this is all in an article cited as evidence in favor of Goldberg’s thesis.
In one sense, I am admittedly rehashing old ground — both the Goldberg book and the Hitchens book were published years ago. However, as the 1932 Atlantic pieces demonstrate, bad ideas and bad history can have profound consequences if left unchallenged.
It is dangerous for any group of people to wrap themselves in a belief that they are immune to the temptations of power, because once you make that mistake, those temptations become all the harder to resist. As George Orwell documented so well, for example, a similar arrogance on the left during the ’20s, ’30s and ’40s led many liberals to dismiss evidence of just how brutal the Soviet Union had become.
There will always be those who are eager to take as much power as possible; likewise, there will always be those who are willing to surrender that power to others. Political philosophy and religious faith make no one exempt to either temptation.
Because, as the good professor noted:
“The worm at the heart of human nature is deeper than that.”
– Jay Bookman
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903 comments Add your comment
Oscar
April 23rd, 2012
6:01 pm
TaxPayer
April 23rd, 2012
5:59 pm
______
A state of confusion and self contradiction.
josef
April 23rd, 2012
6:02 pm
M
No argument on the head start concept, but, boy, howdy they sure have made up for lost time!
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
6:03 pm
Then, there’s the Yankee I do love…the one that has paid close enough attention and come with an open enough mind to be let in what you call “the inner circle.”
josef–As I told Matti earlier today, F the “inner circle”. For being an otherwise nice guy, you sure seem to spend a lot of time defending boorish behavior.
M
April 23rd, 2012
6:04 pm
God himself, if you believe his storybook, waited about three pages between “Thou shalt not kill” and “Go wipe out that tribe over there because they’re different.”
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
6:06 pm
Y’all got deep today cons.
Anyhoo, President Obama by 10.
josef
April 23rd, 2012
6:07 pm
M
First off, H- didn’t say thou shalt not kill. Mo wrote it as thou shalt not murder.
BRUNO
Boorish? I daresay that NOT saying what I really think in the greater society is not boorish but manners. You haven’t heard the half of what I say intra nostra, and there I’m actually considered wishy washy…
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
6:09 pm
willard agrees with our President on low interest on student loans.
willard running to the left out of radical rw extremists territory.
They BOTH suck
April 23rd, 2012
6:09 pm
“the problem with a certain class of Yankees is that they are outraged to have to deal with the same prejudices, misconceptions, stereotypes, etc, thrown right back at them and then they don’t quite get the inside joke that’s coming with it and that makes them even madder!”
If we are playing the North / South, region or whatever you call it…… could the same be said for a percentage of people no matter what “designation” you pick?
I’ve known many a “southerner” who get “outraged to have to deal with the same prejudices, misconceptions, stereotypes, etc,”
Born and raised here except for 3.5 yrs and those years were from before 1 was one until I was 4
josef
April 23rd, 2012
6:09 pm
Both
The point I was making is not that the religious leaders and institutions don’t have a dismal record. They do. It’s just that the secular and the atheistic, Johnny Come Latelys, have show an aptitude of equal ferocity.
M
April 23rd, 2012
6:10 pm
“Thou shalt not murder, unless it’s those guys way over there…oh, and you can have their wives.”
That was the original longhand translation.
Matti
April 23rd, 2012
6:12 pm
josef,
Thanks. Wish you were here this morning when I got gang bullied. Practical jokes and gentle teasing permeate my family and upbringing. Sometimes outsiders are confused. I tried explaining that hey, if we didn’t like you we wouldn’t bother with it. It’s an initiation of sorts. Somehow that makes me an arrogant bizzatch, says a man who –truly– knows that I’m not. Then another “southerner” jumped in and said I should be nice to everybody, (as IF I/we aren’t friendly, helpful, and welcoming to complete strangers every friggin day) and then contradicted her own self. There was a great deal of boorishness indeed.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
6:12 pm
I hear Bruno is a damn yankee.
_____
He even admits it. Seems proud of it also.
Sorry, Oscar, “Yankee” is your term, not mine. Holds about as much weight as me calling you an “Inbred Redneck”.
I’ve always considered myself to simply be a human being living on Planet Earth with a few billion of my fellow inhabitants. I’ll leave the racial/social/economic/geographical divisions to you and the rest of the hateful Libs here.
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
6:13 pm
carlosgvv
I thought we were still on the question referenced in Bruno’s summary: “The building block of our current Universe is the atom. As such, we ultimately have to explain all of the observable phenomena in terms of atomic properties, which is the whole point of Quantum Mechanics. Unfortunately, there remains a deep disconnect between known atomic properties and the amazingly complex macro-world that we inhabit. In particular, life is unexplainable in terms of atomic properties. The seeming ability for atoms to “self-organize” into larger, purposeful entities cannot be explained at our current level of knowledge.”
Unless I’m misreading you, I read you as seeing two separate camps – science only or faith only. My point has always been one can easily fit into both simultaneously.
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
6:13 pm
carlosgvv
Sorry, that last was in reference to your 5:45.
They BOTH suck
April 23rd, 2012
6:15 pm
josef @ 6:09
Thanks for the reply and clarification…….
Whether it is on this blog or in the “real world” I hear and read where people of any political ideology, religion (lack of meaning atheists, agnostics, etc), race, greed, economic status, etc will downplay what they do not like and accentuate what they do………
Guess that’s how people have been doing it for years and years
josef
April 23rd, 2012
6:15 pm
M
And the 11th Commandment?
BOTH
I think it could, yes. Much of what I said can be said of straight folks, goyim, white folks, non Latinos…pick your group. I was referencing a certain clique with that. The ones who don’t get it. There are straight people who get it, goyim who get it…etc.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
6:15 pm
Sometimes outsiders are confused. I tried explaining that hey, if we didn’t like you we wouldn’t bother with it. It’s an initiation of sorts.
“Outsiders”, “we”, “initiation”–Sounds pretty arrogant to me, Matti. If it’s okay, I’ll join Doggone in forgoing any of your “tests” to decide if I can be in your “club”.
barking frog
April 23rd, 2012
6:16 pm
getalife
did you find kolob?
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
6:17 pm
frog,
Still asking but no reply.
Soothsayer
April 23rd, 2012
6:18 pm
Holds about as much weight as me calling you an “Inbred Redneck”.
Now you’ve done done it. You know who ain’t gonna be none to happy about this!
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
6:18 pm
getalife
“willard running to the left out of radical rw extremists territory.”
and he can’t run fast enough -
_________________________
Lots of Yankee talk.
Well, tonight the Texas Rangers begin the first of three smackdowns on the once-great Yankees -
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
6:18 pm
There is a club on this blog?
They BOTH suck
April 23rd, 2012
6:19 pm
“l’ll leave the racial/social/economic/geographical divisions to you and the rest of the hateful Libs here.”
Bruno……… you really must work on that selective reading of these post that you would draw an impression that it is just “libs” being “hateful”……….
Or least it comes across that way that it is one sided, however there is only so much one can convey in a blog especially when replying to numerous people
barking frog
April 23rd, 2012
6:20 pm
getalife
I read somewhere that
kolob is next to where
God lives but Willard
probably knows for sure.
josef
April 23rd, 2012
6:20 pm
matti
That ribbing we do intra nostra, My Granddaddy used to claim there was a dead Yankee in the woodpile for me to have the work ethic I have. He used to say of Granny’s family that they were “the Lost Tribe of the Lost Cause!”
I think my all time favorite ribbing using our regional “characters” was when John Kennedy said of D.C. “it has Northern charm and Southern efficiency!”
TaxPayer
April 23rd, 2012
6:20 pm
“The building block of our current Universe is the atom. As such, we ultimately have to explain all of the observable phenomena in terms of atomic properties,
That would make climate modeling a beetch. We gonna need old Newt to increase the size of that moonbase in order to hold that super duper array of crays.
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
6:21 pm
“and he can’t run fast enough”
He sprinted left like his pants are on fire.
Should be a good series with the Yankees.
Their bats are on fire.
Soothsayer
April 23rd, 2012
6:21 pm
josef: I have a hard time using the term Jew. I think it is offensive. I prefer that someone is Jewish.
Likewise, I find the term goyim offensive. I prefer the term gentile.
josef
April 23rd, 2012
6:22 pm
matti
Sounds like Bruno’s application to join the club was rejected…
Towncrier
April 23rd, 2012
6:22 pm
“So some things are “good” or “evil” because a heavily edited and altered book says so?”
Perhaps you should look a bit deeper into this issue; I don’t think you have a very clear perspective of the situation. For example, apart from distinguishing between canonical and apocryphal books of the Old and New Testaments, I don’t know to what you are referring by the phrase “heavily edited and altered”. The New Testament in particular is the best sourced document by far of all ancient literature. The differences between the various extant manuscripts is very small, meaningfully insignificant and easily attributable to human error.
“If the bible were as absolute and as authoritative as claimed, then why don’t christians insist on having it read only in its original linguistic form, in order to prevent ambiguity and misreadings from creeping in? As an atheist, I don’t find christianity to be any more or less mythological than islam, but at least muslim clerics insist on the laity reading the koran in the original Arabic for just that reason.”
This is an odd argument in my view. Translation of words from one language to another has happened throughout history and I have never heard anyone contend that essential meaning cannot be conveyed this way. Nuances perhaps. And I think you misunderstand an important point: a person is responsible for what he knows (”to him who has been given much, much is expected” and vice versa). The great difficulty in your position, of course, is that people have to considerable training to be able to accurately read the Bible in its original languages. The difference between Christianity now and the way it was practiced in the years the Catholic Church held sway or Islam is that everyone has a responsibility to know what the Bible says instead of what someone says it says (like a Muslim Cleric or Catholic Priest of old).
Matti
April 23rd, 2012
6:22 pm
Dr. Disingenuous,
That won’t be a problem.
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
6:23 pm
frog,
God would know.
If he made the universe, do you think he cares about lil humans on a tiny planet in a giant universe?
josef
April 23rd, 2012
6:23 pm
Sooth
Don’t. Jew is a noun. Jewish is an adjective. Why do you find goyim offensive? It’s simply the Hebrew-Yiddish-Ladino way of saying non-Jew. It carries no negative denotation.
Soothsayer
April 23rd, 2012
6:25 pm
n. pl. goy·im (goim) or goys Offensive
Used as a disparaging term for one who is not a Jew.
josef
April 23rd, 2012
6:25 pm
Town Crier
That’s why Jews (Jewishes?
) stick to the Hebrew. And given the nature of the Semitic languages, that’s confusing enough!
josef
April 23rd, 2012
6:27 pm
Sooth
That is erroneous. Now, I’ll grant you the connotative can get dicey….personally, though, I prefer to call the individuals Shiksas and Shegetz…
F. Sinkwich
April 23rd, 2012
6:27 pm
Oh good. Jay doesn’t have anything positive about O’bozo to blog about so he does some religion thing.
I thought we might discuss how each of us celebrated Earth Day or something.
Soothsayer
April 23rd, 2012
6:27 pm
“Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world – only to serve the People of Israel,” he said in his weekly Saturday night sermon on the laws regarding the actions non-Jews are permitted to perform on Shabbat.”
– Rabbi Ovadia Yosef
M
April 23rd, 2012
6:28 pm
there are more differences among our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament.
Bart D. Ehrman, Misquoting Jesus p. 10
Towncrier
April 23rd, 2012
6:29 pm
“As for the Big Bang theory, it has been the standard model for many years and has withstood every test. It is as certain as Evolution.”
Wow. Hard physical science being measured against soft, unsubstantiated “science”. The Big Bang Theory is much more certain than the evolutionary hypothesis, my friend. The one can be shown over and over by reproducible tests; the latter is much more akin to a myth.
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
6:31 pm
Earth day filky?
Don’t worry.
They are looking for a new planet for the wealthy.
You will be stuck here as they finish off our planet.
Do you know where planet kolob is?
F. Sinkwich
April 23rd, 2012
6:31 pm
Maybe Jay could do a blog about how well the Federal Government spends our tax dollars, using GSA and Solyndra, etc., as examples of prudent stewardship.
F. Sinkwich
April 23rd, 2012
6:32 pm
How did you celebrate, getalife?
Soothsayer
April 23rd, 2012
6:32 pm
josef: I know you are right about Jew vs. Jewish. But for some reason, I have always believed it was disparaging to call someone a Jew as opposed to saying that they are Jewish. I don’t know why I believe this.
saywhat?
April 23rd, 2012
6:33 pm
Bruno @ 6:12
“I’ll leave the racial/social/economic/geographical divisions to you and the rest of the hateful Libs here.”
________________
But you are all too willing to stoke ideological divisions? The irony of your statement is almost brilliant in its complete lack of self awareness. Well played.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
6:34 pm
Bruno……… you really must work on that selective reading of these post that you would draw an impression that it is just “libs” being “hateful”……….
It’s this simple, TBS. Conservative political theory is based on the idea that we are all the same, and that the law should apply equally to everyone. That is why it was the Republicans, and not the Democrats, who are primarily responsible for Civil Rights legislation. Not being content with everyone operating under the same set of rules, the Dems took things a step further beginning in the late 60s and started pushing for unfair laws such as Affirmative Action and Hate Crimes legislation which intend to favor or disfavor certain groups based on nothing but race. You can dress it up any way you like, but it is the Dems who keep racial separation and animosity alive by demanding that everyone be identified by race first and foremost. Think about it objectively for a minute.
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2012
6:34 pm
“I have never heard anyone contend that essential meaning cannot be conveyed this way. Nuances perhaps. ”
Ever heard the term “it lost something in the translation”? And in some languages nuances can matter VERY much.
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
6:35 pm
filky,
I planted some plants.
M
April 23rd, 2012
6:35 pm
Evolution a myth, towncrier? No reproducible tests? Google Richard Lenski’s work with E. coli.
saywhat?
April 23rd, 2012
6:35 pm
Towncrier
April 23rd, 2012
6:29 pm
“Wow. Hard physical science being measured against soft, unsubstantiated “science”. The Big Bang Theory is much more certain than the evolutionary hypothesis, my friend. The one can be shown over and over by reproducible tests; the latter is much more akin to a myth.”
____________________________________________________
Absolutely. They even have a museum in Tennessee showing people riding dinosaurs, so it must be true.
josef
April 23rd, 2012
6:35 pm
Sooth
So, I should quote David Duke as speaking for White People? Get real. There are, though, two terms we hold in reserve for the likes of you and the Rabbi you quote, “momser” and “chazer.”
carlosgvv
April 23rd, 2012
6:37 pm
Towncrier
Evolution is not a theory. It’s a fact. It really happened. Every Nobel Prize winning scientist has expressed a belief in evolution. Are you going to tell us all here you know more about evolution than them?
M
April 23rd, 2012
6:38 pm
The mountain of evidence contradicting evolution is real, and they put it in Narnia so that nobody can tamper with it.
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
6:39 pm
Sinkwich
“Maybe Jay could do a blog about how well the Federal Government spends our tax dollars, using GSA and Solyndra, etc., as examples of prudent stewardship.”
Think big!
What about the hundreds of billions, upwards of a trillion, in wasted overruns and excess costs for the F-35 fighter plane, which doesn’t even work as advertised?
But if it’s Defense, it’s a Patriotic Overrun!
Soothsayer
April 23rd, 2012
6:40 pm
Fish Sandwich: I understand your frustration. That’s why I invite you to visit my 5:38. I think you will find everything you’ve been wishing for there.
josef: I don’t know Rabbi Ovadia Yosef from Adam’s housecat. If he’s some kind of Jewish nutcase, I’m sorry.
pogo
April 23rd, 2012
6:40 pm
The “Orange Crush” thugs trashed Tybee Island beaches again. May they should move to St. Simons next year.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
6:41 pm
The one can be shown over and over by reproducible tests; the latter is much more akin to a myth.
Crier–Please point out to me even one “reproducible test” which demonstrates how the Universe began. Just a hunch, but I don’t think you’ll find any labs big enough to conduct your tests.
As stated above, the Big Bang exists only on paper and in computer models. That’s not enough proof for me.
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
6:41 pm
“Conservative political theory is based on the idea that we are all the same, and that the law should apply equally to everyone.”
What load of crap.
They carry the water for the wealthy.
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
6:42 pm
carlosgvv
“Evolution is not a theory. It’s a fact. ”
In the interest of furthering the discussion and clarifying terms, from National Geographic, Was Darwin Wrong?
“Evolutionary theory, though, is a bit different”
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0411/feature1/fulltext.html
And with that, my son flew in on business so I’m off to meet him for supper.
Pleasant evening, all -
Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")
April 23rd, 2012
6:42 pm
“Maybe Jay could do a blog about how well the Federal Government spends our tax dollars, using GSA and Solyndra, etc., as examples of prudent stewardship.”
Think big!
What about the hundreds of billions, upwards of a trillion, in wasted overruns and excess costs for the F-35 fighter plane, which doesn’t even work as advertised?
But if it’s Defense, it’s a Patriotic Overrun!
———————————————————————————————————————————
Some of us actually think all those are pretty wasteful.
josef
April 23rd, 2012
6:42 pm
Doggone
You have had some most enlightening and provocative comments in our previous exchanges relative to the nuances “lost” in translation…as a professional translator, I can assure anyone, you can have a full day hair pulling over the “correct” translation of a word or term…and, whoo, boy! The mistakes you can make to come back and haunt you
M
April 23rd, 2012
6:43 pm
Well, Bruno, a lot of those same paper theories, computer models, and mathematical equations predicted black holes and other space phenomena that were subsequently discovered to be real. I’m much more apt to believe them than anybody who claims ‘GOD DID IT.’
Soothsayer
April 23rd, 2012
6:43 pm
“What about the hundreds of billions, upwards of a trillion, in wasted overruns and excess costs for the F-35 fighter plane, which doesn’t even work as advertised?”
Forget about the $5,000,000,000,000.00 we’ve spent in EYE-rack. Sinkhole, please list what we got from the $5,000,000,000,000.00 we spent in EYE-rack.
1.
2.
F. Sinkwich
April 23rd, 2012
6:43 pm
Nice job, getalife. We always need more plants.
My planned celebration never happened because the loonie leftie eco-weenies didn’t publicize the occasion so I missed it. I’ll have to wait for next year.
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2012
6:43 pm
“As stated above, the Big Bang exists only on paper and in computer models. That’s not enough proof for me.”
Then here’s your chance…come up with your own theory and then test it against observation and see how it holds up.
josef
April 23rd, 2012
6:43 pm
Doggone
Funny, reading back over that post and my use of “provocative.” What I really INTENDED was “though provokING..”
Lucifer
April 23rd, 2012
6:44 pm
OK. Show of hands. How many think some dude by the name of God played mind games with the ancients of yesteryear and had Moses and others take dictation about how mortal humans are supposed to pattern their lives?
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2012
6:45 pm
“I can assure anyone, you can have a full day hair pulling over the “correct” translation of a word or term…and, whoo, boy! The mistakes you can make to come back and haunt you”
I wouldn’t even begin to doubt that. My favorite is “mon chou” – translate that one directly, word for work, into English and it loses A LOT in translation!
josef
April 23rd, 2012
6:46 pm
SOOTH
Then maybe you should have checked before you went quoting him Jewish “nutcase” is way too kind for him…
F. Sinkwich
April 23rd, 2012
6:47 pm
“What about the hundreds of billions, upwards of a trillion, in wasted overruns and excess costs for the F-35 fighter plane, which doesn’t even work as advertised?”
It will kick some ass when perfected.
I luvs me me some enemy ass kicked…
carlosgvv
April 23rd, 2012
6:47 pm
Paul – 6:13
1. The building block of our Universe is not the atom. It is the quark.
2. We do not know exactly how life started, yet. But, we’re getting closer every day.
3. Quantum Mechanics and general relativity have not been fully integrated yet. Scientists are getting close, though.
4. Some scientists are also people of faith. There does not have to be any conflict.
And, did you know that, according to mathematical physics, something really can come from nothing.
And, there was a time when there was no time.
Can you understand that?
Do not rely on Bruno for any scientific knowledge since, in that Dept. at least, he is a child’s garden of mis-information.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
6:48 pm
Evolution is not a theory. It’s a fact. It really happened.
carlos–It’s most definitely a fact that species change over time. What is in question is how do these changes come about. The current theory of Evolution posits that the mechanism of change is “random genetic mutation”. I hope that common sense alone will tell you that is wrong, that destructive genetic changes cannot magically produce a specific change in response to environmental pressures. The bottom line is that species adapt in an intelligent way, with a rapidity and specificity that no amount of random genetic changes can account for.
As I’ve theorized on this blog before, the most promising line of research to help explain the rapidity and specificity of change focuses on the epigenomes, which have the ability to activate, and even change the basic DNA structures in living beings.
Every Nobel Prize winning scientist has expressed a belief in evolution. Are you going to tell us all here you know more about evolution than them?
IMO, I have raised specific points relating to the areas of Science discussed today, demonstrating at least a working knowledge of the issues at hand. As for you, you keep making sweeping statements and Appeals to Authority, but haven’t addressed the first specific point I’ve made.
Does anyone on board here think carlos has presented anything of substance today?? One “No” vote here.
F. Sinkwich
April 23rd, 2012
6:48 pm
“Sinkhole, please list what we got from the $5,000,000,000,000.00 we spent in EYE-rack.”
Sooth has trouble with math. But then again Barbie does too.
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2012
6:50 pm
“Funny, reading back over that post and my use of “provocative.” What I really INTENDED was “though provokING..” ”
That’s Ok, I knew what you meant…and I’m apparently not doing much better: “word for work”!!
josef
April 23rd, 2012
6:51 pm
L’fer
And you are about as much of a “literalist” as the fundamentalists…
Soothsayer
April 23rd, 2012
6:53 pm
“We do not know exactly how life started”
Oh, yes we do! The sperm met the egg and then they both smoked a cigarette!
Sinkhole: run along now, ya heah?
Towncrier
April 23rd, 2012
6:54 pm
“Evolution a myth, towncrier? No reproducible tests? Google Richard Lenski’s work with E. coli.”
No one disputes mutations within a species and one does not have to look at E. coli cells to establish that it happens. One can simply go visit a house built in the 17the century around Boston and see that Americans have grown taller. Cellular mutations to me do not prove intra-species evolution, especially when the argument that it does hinges on a man-made classification of the E. coli cell. On the other hand, it seems odd (given the otherwise heavy reliance upon dating and geology) that there really exits no compelling fossil evidence for Darwin’s theory (I mean, out of the trillions and trillions of organisms that have existed, one should think there would be more that a few, mostly partial remains here and there).
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
6:54 pm
I’m much more apt to believe them than anybody who claims ‘GOD DID IT.’
Sure thing, but you’re creating a false dichotomy. Show me where I’ve argued for a Supernatural Being here while I’ve criticized our current state of knowledge.
Then here’s your chance…come up with your own theory and then test it against observation and see how it holds up.
Same for you, Doggone. There’s no requirement to come up with a better theory in order to disprove an existing theory.
josef
April 23rd, 2012
6:55 pm
Doggone…
Make that THOUGHT provoking, though though provoking, too…
That mon chou…another one that slays me is vache, vachement…another one I like is in the Slavic languages one of the worst of the bad words is “cholera.” Given what the plague brought with it, it’s understandable why it would carry the weight it does, but how DO you translate it?
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
6:56 pm
filky,
Try reading the Aol blog because they promote it.
Soothsayer
April 23rd, 2012
6:57 pm
“Sinkhole, please list what we got from the $5,000,000,000,000.00 we spent in EYE-rack.”
Sooth has trouble with math. But then again Barbie does too.
Alright, let me analyze this for you.
Since Sinkhole doesn’t have any real answer for the question I posed to him, he responds with a personal attack.
Variations of this action include attack and distract, whereby the poster attacks the original poster with nonsensical responses but, in addition, interjects a red herring or other device to distract the blog to a different thread.
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2012
6:58 pm
“that there really exits no compelling fossil evidence for Darwin’s theory ”
Sure there is, but evolution deniers refuse to see it.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Greatest-Show-Earth-Evolution/dp/B007PM0V64/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1335221868&sr=1-5
Towncrier
April 23rd, 2012
6:58 pm
“Please point out to me even one “reproducible test” which demonstrates how the Universe began. Just a hunch, but I don’t think you’ll find any labs big enough to conduct your tests. As stated above, the Big Bang exists only on paper and in computer models. That’s not enough proof for me.
Certain observable phenomena were posited that would substantiate the theory years before these observations were actually made. To the extent conclusions from repeatable observations are correct, the theory is correct. Do some research on it and see what observations I speak of.
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
7:00 pm
“The current theory of Evolution posits that the mechanism of change is “random genetic mutation”. I hope that common sense alone will tell you that is wrong, that destructive genetic changes cannot magically produce a specific change in response to environmental pressures. The bottom line is that species adapt in an intelligent way, with a rapidity and specificity that no amount of random genetic changes can account for.”
Bruno, your evidence for this is what exactly? And this guiding “intelligence” that you posit? It resides where exactly? And you would inform the leading lights of evolutionary science that surely “common sense alone will tell you that is wrong”?
The basics of evolution and genetic drift are rooted in large numbers. Many many genes interacting many with many many other genes many times a generation over many generations produce an astounding number of genetic differences, many of which prove to be inconsequential or even damaging.
However, a very tiny percentage of that very large number of genetic alterations produces changes that are positive in terms of survival and thus have an enhanced chance of being passed onto later generations. It is random chance, yes, but random chance on a large enough number has a pretty good chance of playing out. Someone, in other words, wins the lottery.
Let me ask you Bruno:
Would Harvey Mudd hire someone who advocates your theory to teach biology or any other life science?
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2012
7:00 pm
“Please point out to me even one “reproducible test” which demonstrates how the Universe began”
Reproducible tests are not the only test of a scientific theory. Repeatability applies to observation as well as action.
josef
April 23rd, 2012
7:01 pm
Since when did science gain a patent on the term “evolution?” Evolution is part and parcel of the human experience.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
7:01 pm
1. The building block of our Universe is not the atom. It is the quark.
Several problems with that outlook, carlos. For starters, quarks are little more than a theoretical construction since they cannot be observed directly in Nature and cannot be isolated for study.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark
Like string theory, quark theory simply represents a convenient mathematical way to explain observable phenomena. However, at no point can either model claim to be “reality” itself. Which is the big point you seem to be missing. Reality, and our ideas about reality, are not the same thing, in the same way that a picture of the ocean and the ocean itself are forever distinct. You keep pointing to the picture of the ocean and telling me it’s the real thing. Sorry, no sale.
As for your points (2) and (3), you are confirming what I’ve been saying all day. We don’t know. To me, it’s more honest to admit the truth than to try to browbeat people with ridiculous Appeals to Authority.
josef
April 23rd, 2012
7:03 pm
Mo Maimonides is rolling over in his tomb….
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2012
7:03 pm
“There’s no requirement to come up with a better theory in order to disprove an existing theory”
Actually? Yes, there is. It is possible to “kill” a theory by showing where it’s wrong…but there still remains the observable phenomonon to be accounted for.
Towncrier
April 23rd, 2012
7:04 pm
“Sure there is, but evolution deniers refuse to see it.”
Or else evolutionists try to make a mountain of a questionable molehill. There should be a preponderance of evidence given the number of organisms that have existed, not some fragments or a few whole fossils pieced together in someone’s imagination to substantiate a myth. To me, it is like using the Shroud of Turin to prove the resurrection of Jesus (even the gospels say that Jesus way wrapped in linen strips and not a whole cloth). It just doesn’t hold water.
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2012
7:05 pm
“Since when did science gain a patent on the term “evolution?” Evolution is part and parcel of the human experience”
Probably about the same time that scientific theory separated from theory in the vernacular. Scientific evolution means more than just “change”
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2012
7:06 pm
“It just doesn’t hold water”
As I said…refuse to see it.
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
7:06 pm
There is not a human on this planet that can prove how the universe was created .
We should be more concerned on our future than wasting time on that issue.
Innovation, jobs, focus cons.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
7:07 pm
However, a very tiny percentage of that very large number of genetic alterations produces changes that are positive in terms of survival and thus have an enhanced chance of being passed onto later generations. It is random chance, yes, but random chance on a large enough number has a pretty good chance of playing out. Someone, in other words, wins the lottery.
Jay–I’m well aware of the “large number” theory to support random genetic mutation as the mechanism of change, but as far as I know, it’s never been demonstrated to be the case. As I’ve mentioned several times, I believe that it will eventually be shown that our genomes actively direct changes in our genetic structures in response to specific environmental stresses. We’re just now scratching the surface, but it makes a lot more sense to me than randomness. But since we’re still in the “faith” stage, we get to pick. You’re certainly free to put your faith in randomness, but I’m more comfortable relying on the intelligence which I see permeate the Universe at every level.
Would Harvey Mudd hire someone who advocates your theory to teach biology or any other life science?
As I mentioned to you before, my alma mater has turned into a PC cesspool with the election of Maria Klawe as its President. Truth is now subordinate to one’s political views.
Soothsayer
April 23rd, 2012
7:09 pm
“Forget about the $5,000,000,000,000.00 we’ve spent in EYE-rack. Sinkhole, please list what we got from the $5,000,000,000,000.00 we spent in EYE-rack.”
The truth is, we didn’t get shyte for the $5,000,000,000,000.00 we spent in EYE-rack. The Military Security Complex extracted this money from the taxpayers of America for their own gain.
Oh, but you won’t ever hear Bruno or Thulsa or any of the other Fright-Wingers complaining about it. No, they’re too worried that somewhere, somehow, some “Welfare Queen” is sucking off their tax dollars.
Even though what we spend on “welfare” is a minute fraction of what we spend on the Military Security Complex, nonetheless, “welfare” is what controls the Fright-Wing mind.
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
7:12 pm
Not only have the mic robbed the treasury, the greedy wealthy have robbed trillions.
The cons carry that water.
The rest is bs.
Towncrier
April 23rd, 2012
7:13 pm
“Evolution is not a theory. It’s a fact. It really happened. Every Nobel Prize winning scientist has expressed a belief in evolution. Are you going to tell us all here you know more about evolution than them?”
I am saying I don’t belief what they are saying just because there have a title of “scientist” and may have won a Nobel Prize. A number of evolutionists have conceded that their belief in the theory has a anti-theistic foundation. Evolutionary “science” is simply not on the same footing as, say, physics or chemistry. What are they able to prove conclusively – that is the question for me. I cannot doubt that hydrogen and oxygen combine to form water, because I can verify it myself in a lab.
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
7:14 pm
How about MIT, Bruno?
Harvard? Cal-Berkeley? Stanford, Cornell? Would any of them hire someone who espoused that theory? While the large-numbers theory has not been proved to be the process by which evolution occurs, it has been proved to be a process by which it COULD occur. The mechanism works.
And this theory of yours …. by what mechanism would this cellular-level “intelligence” work?
josef
April 23rd, 2012
7:15 pm
G-d and evolution…that’s already been reconciled…it’s drug related….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsrS_vQLCnQ
Jack
April 23rd, 2012
7:15 pm
Religion is a private thing. Or should be.